Yeah. Szymon and Adam are way too nice. And the problem is that $people can't avoid outfits like this if they don't know the names. I guess they are hoping that getting these designers to actually learn how to do it right will be more effective in the long run than naming and shaming. But _in the meantime_ people would like to know. Maybe someone on the development will tell us?
@@BristolHeatPumps I had alto design for me, did the day course and that, sounded good if I install the commission and take over. Did the install for a pal developer and now 6 months on we have realised there running shit. Done this a few times different companies designing and still the same issues. All new builds and expect a much better performance. Now I can’t trust anyone to do it and doing the knowledge with heat geek myself. That saying you want something done properly you do it yourself. That’s my mindset now.
@@stixstonesinvestors5413 yep they are shocking, tbf i would say most umbrellas are very poor quality, if only MCS had some backbone eh! We are a heat geek ourselves and do all our design in house, its really not difficult to do it properly
@@BristolHeatPumps so true. It really needs to be regulated and rules tightened up. I know a lot gas engineers who think they know it all and just have that mindset of it’s just a unvented system. They don’t take it serious and if they have someone design it and it don’t work, there attitude is I didn’t design it, it’s there thought. It’s such a challenge out there ain’t it. I truly believe the way forward is through heat geek. It’s bloody hard for me but im determined to finish this. Love your apart of it as well. Good to speak to likeminded people
In Poland, we have been using heat pumps for over 10 years without any issues, with 200,000 units sold annually. They perform excellently even at -15°C. In the UK, despite having milder winters and cheaper electricity, you always seem to encounter problems with heat pumps. Additionally, you regard heat pumps and heat recovery systems as something entirely new, it boggles my mind
When it gets a lot colder than -1, then the air gets very dry and the heat pump will only need to defrost every 2-3 hours. Between 0 and 3 degrees is the worst ambient condition for a heat pump, because the evaporator can freeze shut every 45 minutes to an hour depending on the operating point and this requires very regular defrosts. Therefore heat pumps can deliver more power and efficiency at -2 degrees then at 2 degrees. UK and the Netherlands have the worst possible climate for air source heat pumps, yet they make it work great anyway. The colder climate in Poland can actualy make it work better in some aspects.
@@andrewstafford-jones4291 The price you've quoted is more of a wholesale electricity price, without distribution costs, additional charges and taxes. As of now, polish households pay about $210 per MWh for the first 1500 kWh they consume this year, anything above that cap is in the area of $330-340 per MWh (and since that cap is quite low, anyone with a heat pump basically runs it on the more expensive electricity only). It is expected that as of July, electricity prices for households will be set at around $280, with no consumption caps.
@@andrewstafford-jones4291 oh please.. I'm paying ~0.25p kWh in Surrey, my mom in Warsaw ~1.15zl kWh (0.23p) Comparing prices to monthly wages, the cost per kWh in the UK is significantly lower.
Absolutely love you 2 have come together and now a 2nd vid highlighting these issues. You have to be so on the ball with heat pump installs. I know people installing them just following the design from other companies and I have seen an install which joules designed. I went out to see the install which was a pal that did it because the bills were astronomical. I could see clearly it was so wrong, 12kw on a small 3 bed new build and thermostats absolutely everywhere. I said to my pal about a lot of concerns but his reply was I just installed what they said it’s not my problem. I was like……. Geez you can’t be like that. Heat geek is a lifeline for all that wants to do it the right way. It’s so bloody hard but I love that. Simon you still the best out there, your content is the best, hope u 2 do more together and bring more light to this industry. Please keep them coming 👊🏻👊🏻
As a retired heating engineer from uk, i am not surprised at all by what you found, it is the usual situation of designers who dont understand the physics,installers who just follow drawings and may realise its not right but dont get listened too or dont care. And finally commissioning of the system, done by agents who probably dont understand how to set it up,or cant because the installation is wrong. THEN NOBODY IS INTERESTED BECAUSE OF THE MONEY NEEDED TO PUT IT RIGHT.
Another great video. You two make a great team. Really sad to see that new builds built to a high standard are being let down by shocking heating installations. Can't imagine what it'll be like once heat pumps are mandatory for all new builds; 2025 in England if im not mistaken. When an oversized heat pump gets installed for an old leaky retrofit, you can kind of understand why the installers go extra careful even if you know that a proper heat loss calculation is the solution. But with new builds it is inexcusable to get it wrong.
Blimey. That was pretty scary tbh. For those of us thinking about heat pumps, it's sobering to see "experienced" installers making such a botch of it on a new build property which should be easier than a retrofit. Caveat emptor doesn't even begin to cut it. Keep up the good work with these videos, really hoping that they can help drive some positive change.
Great video. Many of the ASHP manufacturers have a standard design or schematic that the installers have to follow to maintain warranties and provide sign-off to apply for RHI. For example, the Nibe schematic includes a heat buffer and my installer would not deviate from the design. I'm about to do another new build install and I'm faced with the same for an Ecodan system. Does Heat Geek have a schematic that shows best practices? Or a design listing best-in-class components. Are all of the manufacturer's schematics wrong? I'd love to see a video taking apart what's wrong with each manufacturer's design and showing a drawing of how it's done correctly rather than looking at homeowners' plant rooms, it's too difficult to see what's wrong. Fantastic job guys, I've been following your videos separately so nice to see you working together
It's down to the installers to specify equirement from manufacturers who care about this stuff. Bear in mind that a buffer might have been necessary in your property due to system volume. A buffer isn't automatically wrong, but they are often included when they aren't necessary, or where a small change might eliminate them.
Since learning about heating, with the help of your excellent channel, i've come to the conclusion that it's not just the topic of heat pumps, or even heating in general - house builders for the most part, especially mass market ones, will absolutely do the bare minimum to (barely) meet the regulations. I am sure there are exceptions but most builders just want to smash houses out for maximum profit. I moved into a new build recently and a weather comp sensor was mounted to the outside wall, but not actually wired into the boiler. The sensor was only there so that it could (at a visual inspection level) meet the Boiler Plus regs. Of course, it's a bottom of the barrel combi boiler with a massive minimum modulation, so it cycles constantly, highly inefficient and will probably fail prematurely (at least then I can replace it with a properly sized unit). Radiators are barely big enough for the heat loss, certainly not suitable for low thermal design temperatures. I think the regs changed again recently so that more effort has to be taken to design for lower flow temps ... but im sure the developers will manage to avoid spending too much money on that ... rant over.
I didn't get the impression that these builders were doing the bare minimum to be honest. It seems like they just aren't aware of the best practices when installing heat pumps. They could probably increase their profit by installing lower output heat pumps, a single circulating pump, and not bothering with buffers, zones, e.t.c. Most people probably wouldn't even consider these things when buying a house so I doubt they would expect to pay more for them. Something that seems like madness to me is I've noticed a lot of new builds have high levels of insulation and air tightness, but then they just core 4 inch diameter holes in every room and fit hit and miss vents. At least this house has MVHR. Retrofitting MVHR is not worth it in most cases so most people will just have to live with that. If the builders can still hit the desired building energy rating without MVHR then it is easy to see why that is happening.
Also according to the video from UK radiators some sellers are not using the accredited verified heat outputs and quoting much higher outputs for their rads. If you are putting in radiators and heat emitters and they are not outputting enough heat you’re going to get issues. The industry as a whole needs not make sure there is top to bottom regulation and really heavy financially punitive fines if they get it wrong.
It's not just that most house-builders do the bare minimum, it's that they have been lobbying government for decades to keep those standards low. We should have had better building regs 20 years ago - the issue has been well-understood for that long, but the housebuilders keep whispering on govts ear 'if you make us build decent housing it will be 'too expensive' and we won't build so many'. It's not actually more expensive of course, for the householder. You save a lot more on energy costs over the building lifetime than it costs to build a passivehouse _and_ you get much more comfortable, less-allergic, quieter housing. And in places where they legislated for it (e.g Brussels from 2017), it hasn't actually cost any extra. Once it's standard a well-insulated airtight building (with a much smaller, cheaper, simpler, heating system) costs the same to build as a crappy one with a big heating system.
Maybe it's the Englishman house buyers? Just Google: 'false chimneys' - we have a house building program where fake chimneys get glued onto new houses where there could be solar panels!!! This year a new estate went up in our town where half the houses have pretend chimneys. Fake period features sell houses - not insulation or MVHR.
The builders are Trivselhus and the largest houses on that development are nearly a £1m so that performance is pretty outragious considering the claims they make, perhaps a class action is required.
@@tonydaddario4706 On the contrary, I suspect these systems were deliberately over engineered to avoid possibility of complaints of poor heating from demanding wealthy customers. Some people can be very unreasonable, and we all suffer from people covering themselves as a result.
@@FlyinghookHeat pumps are quite common in the USA - mainly the air-to-air variety. But in the UK they seem to be considered new unproven technology. Boggles the mind.
Love to see your work. We are already 13 years telling clients not to do zoning, and we don't use buffer tanks. Use them only on very big systems where heat pump must have very high flow. Nice work, guys. I always enjoy watching you.
I love these videos, explaining how simple it can be and the big part is heating the whole structure as one. It is crazy how this was done to every house.
passive house spec is 10w/m2 peak load. So 2kw. Worth mentioning that passive house on big developments with simple thermal geometry it only adds 2-5% onto the costs over building code.
@@Swwils There could be an argument that a better designed house would be easier to construct correctly. Dense packed insulation between double stud walls, for instance. But the UK is attached to certain ways of building (brick leaf, insulation, concrete block, dot and dabbed plasterboard).
@@Swwils Research on real PH builds has found that they actually have a very good record of meeting their design specs, unlike most UK mass-build houses. Because you actually have to pass a fairly stringent airtightness test, and design out a lot of the stuff that brings houses down (thermal bridges, thermal bypass), it's actually _easier_ to build it so it works like it was designed. Said researach was published in passivehouseplus magazine a couple of years ago.
I'm not a professional but I can clearly see the logic here. All experienced contractors are doing the same thing they did since they ware installing the gas boilers which have higer starting temperature which is okay but at least there should be a new name for the Heat Pump installation and some guidelines when installing it. Should this be a part of a manufacturers manual🤔 As always thank you for your videos. Cheers 🍻
The difference is, poor quality boiler installations for the most part work, they are just inefficient. Poor quality heat pump installs, in the worst instances, do not work at all. And all costing 10x the price of an equivalent gas boiler. It's been a long time coming for all these poorly technically educated installers to get caught out!
Well, they work but they’re just outputting way too high witch causes them to short cycle which doesn’t work for an heat pump, where a gas boiler can vary gas level down to 1 out of 16 levels
Actually with gas boilers their approach is less efficient too. If we are talking under floor heating. If there is more and colder water going through the boiler. The heat exchanger can pull more energy from the hot gasses. However 50 degree C output is never gonna warm an older house with old radiators. It just won’t create the proper air circulation. Now if you have underfloor heating below and normal radiators above. You have to put and mixing unit at the underfloor heating. Because it’s impossible to have the right temperature coming out boiler or heatpump for both heating solutions
We have a couple of problems in the UK - old and poorly insulated homes, gas prices are under 1/3 the cost of electricity meaning you need a COP of @ 3.5 to financially breakeven if you move from gas central heating to heat pump. Lastly, and what these guys are championing, our heat engineers are trained mostly in safely installing the gas central heating and not optimising and design of heat pump systems. We are definitely behind our European neighbours but channels like this are helping.
you don't get 1kWh of heat for 1kWh of gas. average gas boiler efficiency achieved (rather than the badge efficiency) is about 83%. so you only need a SCOP of about 2.5 to break even on running costs at gas costing 1/3 of electricity
They’re not even trained in installing efficient gas systems, The gas safe qualification is just that and nothing else I’d say 80% of guys are of the “Fit a 40kw combi mate” mentality.
The gas central heating systems in the UK are absolute cack too. A typical gas boiler is big enough to heat more than five houses, and runs much less efficiently because of this- the return flow temperatures end up much too high, and so they don't condense properly.
@BooBaddyBig they never condense in the Uk and they fail on average after 8 years making UK a cash cow for boiler manufacturers and a haven for cowboy combi slingers - couldn’t make it up
Great video as per usual! The larger point is why is it even legal for installers to be doing this with limited customer comeback? How many billions are the government wasting because of inefficient installs? Imagine the needless load this will put on the grid at a national level vs. if we had well-installed heat pumps? It's really sad to see. This is a fantastic example of installers not understanding the technology and making things needlessly complicated. - More expensive to install due to the excessive sizing & extra, redundant parts - More expensive to run - More errors (some of which balance out, but many of which compound things) - More maintenance required due to thrashing/cycling, plus engineers will have to have their wits about them if they want to understand wtf is going on - More to go wrong in future because of the extra complication
Not sure 'The government' is wasting billions here. It's people buying houses (which could have been cheaper) then spending more moeny to heat them than they should be. So it's individuals/families wasting money (and installers who could do a better job much more cheaply if they actually knew what they were doing).
@@defragsbin Sure, the last 20 years of failure to set decent buildings standards has been a huge contributor to the current cost of living crisis and has wasted a great deal of people's money (on expensive heating) and government money on the poor health that poor housing generates. I actually blame mass housebuilders as much as the government - it is they they have been campaigning to keep standards low for decades (and the govt is too innumerate to just ignore them and do the right thing for the populace anyway)
Great video as usual, with some thought provoking stuff. Mind boggling that, on the face of it, a develeper has gone out with the best of intentions, and produced beautiful houses, but still got it so badly wrong. A couple of things immediately spring to mind....... 1. We need a list of pertinent questions that buyers of such houses need to be asking before they sign. 2. You hint that they are a large well known outfit but you don't name them. How does the unsuspecting public know if they never get called out?!?
Run it at a constant 20 deg over a winter and you get the real heat loss. UK builds have missing insulation, air leaks so I wouldn’t ever trust a drawing.
A great video, thanks. Worth noting that the 11.2kW Ecodan is a power limited 14kW unit, with the same minimum output as the bigger version. Also that Ecodan apparently have a firmware update for excessive cycling that they only install if someone complains. My experience is that the 11kW Ecodan cycles rapidly whenever the heat load goes below about 6kW.
Mitsubishi has a big problem with truth when we talk data. The units do not deliver what is on the data book. My 8.5kw does no modulate below 4.5kw when it should go to 3. The energy and cop data displayed on the unit are also completely made up.
@@aymerichousez1005 Not defending Mitsubishi but I think if you were to take away all the supporting hardware and do the testing in a controlled environment, I'm sure you'll get good results that match the book. My 11.2kW is returning about SCOP 4.1 and I think it's just down to running 1 circulator, no hydraulic separation, no 3rd party controls, no TRVs, good emitters, good system balance, no glycol and fairly low flow rates as it's oversized and never needs the full output. Internally these units are 90% the same as the best performing ones from Vaillant, Viessman etc, it's all the pre-plumbed and 3rd party nonsense that drags it all down. And Glycol!
@@Loopyengineeringco I would say that unless you use a 3rd party monitor, you don't know what your cop is. I was at first impressed with the COp shown on my ecodan but when I started to monitor temperature and electrical power independently, I realized that these values can't be trusted. The temperatures are rounded and the power is corrected somehow to makes things looks good. Whatever they claim from test conditions, the competition performs better. I don't believe that these units are all the same. A Vaillant 7kw weight 190kg, a Mitsubishi 8.5kW is barely 100kg...
@@aymerichousez1005 Yeah definitely don't trust the estimates, I'm using a ultrasonic flow meter (ofgem supplied calibrated unit as part of the MMSP package) and 3rd party CT on the consumer unit to do the calculations. I think you're comparing different chassis sizes - the twin fan ones are naturally heavier. But like for like, you're right in that there's still a bit of difference. Vaillant use piston compressors vs scroll compressors on the Mitsubishi, maybe they have more ballast for damping, or thicker casings? Not sure! The Mitsubishi is definitely a lower quality product though for sure, although I do like the controls, AA mode is really good, external API and hackability etc
I've heard that the Manual J calculation used in the US for calculating heat gain/loss is overly conservative to begin with, then installers pick a higher summer temperature and lower winter temperature to reduce callbacks, and then pick the next bigger size heat/cooling. This produces oversized units which are inefficient during spring and fall. But what was surprising to me was that unit sizing didn't seem to be done at all before designing the heating system. In most places in the US, it's not possible to get a building permit before sizing the HVAC, and you can't size the HVAC until the windows are selected so the U-values are known, along with insulation and air leakage targets, validated with a blower door test. The other surprise is that I didn't hear a dehumidifier mentioned. Perhaps that's not a big problem without a cooling cycle, but things like showers can throw a lot of humidity into the air, and with a passive house, a typical bath fan will depressurize the house, and not do much to actually exhaust the humidity. The ERV can help, but only if the bathroom fans are instead the source of the ERV exhaust air.
Amazing video chaps, great job! Really getting to the crux of the problem within this industry. So called 'experts' throwing this nonsense in, thinking they are doing the right thing. Most of whats installed in these houses is just not needed. KISS! As always the haters will blame the heat pump, when in fact its just lazy 'copy and paste' designs from home to home using the 'thats what we've always done' method of system design. The only people who suffer in all of this are the poor homeowners who have to live with a poor system and pay crazy money for their comfort. Manufacturers are also to blame for producing this nonsense that does nothing for good efficiency. One other point to note that I haven't seen mentioned here, is the longevity of the heat pump in this situation, the compressor is likely to fail within 5 years here too, probably just outside of its manufacturers warranty too!
Really enjoyed this video Szymon, I am the renewables manager for Alpha. I would love to invite you down to see our new heat pump and cylinder, I think you will find it refreshing. Ps. We’re only down the road!
Question on the SCOP figures for a super insulated house like these. Would it be lower overall as the system should spend more time on heating the hot water rather than heating the house? Just thinking that it's usually the heating cycle that gets the best COP vs HW so does it skew the numbers a little bit? I would have assumed that they would be in the 5+ figures for SCOP but if there is little heat demand this would drag the average down.
Yes, that is likely. In a house at PH level hot water load can be quite similar to space heating load. It might even be higher. And COP is typically lower on DHW than space heating, so you are correct. But it's a slightly lower SCOP on a much lower total heat/energy load, so it's still all good.
I guess over specifying means more money from the developer (and ultimately customer) for the job. It’s the heat pump equivalent of a 30kw boiler in a 2 bed terraced house.
This model is an 11kw unit, they're marked on their actual output not input. So it's an 11kw heat pump (which should be about ~3kw input). Still this is hugely oversized, should be
@@UrbanPlumbers yep, so he shouldnt be doing any zoning (and this assumes he wants the entire house at the same temp, of course) I mean, what, 100L + volumiser to reduce cycling, even with the open zoning... were your calculations at -2c?
THANK YOU! I am commissioning an underfloor heating system right now. I thought it was a bit overengineered and you've confirmed it. I'm going to remove 3 thermostats, 4 actuators and most of the wiring centre :)
14:18 yes, you can get HPs that small and actually smaller. Just not the style you're looking for. Also note that the minimum capacity for that unit is about. 3.5-5kw. (depends on conditions) it's still too big for the house but not as much as it seems at face value.
In the UK, you'd expect it to have to run in three coldest months for heating, but for the rest of the time, it would only be needed for heating domestic hot water. (The heat loss from the humans, electrical devices and DHW storage and pipe work would keep the house warm the rest of the time)
This system does seem terribly complicated! Obviously you've got to work with what's there already, but if starting from scratch in designing a building with MVHR, would it make sense to look at air-to-air heat pumps to avoid lots of plumbing (I'm not an expert)?
The "Passiv" part in Passivhaus was meant to mean that no (or little) active heating or cooling is required by means of thermal insulation, ventilation with heat recovery and proper use of solar gain and shading. It seems to me that these houses don't need hydronic heating at all. A modest floor standing AC unit in the open plan space should suffice. That's how these scandinavian houses were designed. The MVHR takes care of equalizing the temperature throughout the house. This way you save space, you save on installation and you get rid of those radiators upstairs. It's as if the architect did not feel responsible or the builder did not look at the plans.
Indeed. So are they actually PH, because that doesn't fit all that well with the ~3kW heating load Adam and Szimon calculated. They were presumably not accounting for solar gain the way PHPP does.
I live in a new build with a primary energy use of about 27 kWh/m2. We have a 700W MVHR combined combined heatpump and MVHR and backup direct heating which is off 90% of the time in winter. The biggest compalin I have is that the system isn't powerful enough to fight the solar gains in the summer, which means you have to open the windows (and I'd rather not since I'm allergic). I believe that new builds should have external shutters to fight off solar gains in the summer which can'talways be easily retrofit. In short, solar gains are more important with very energy efficient homes. you can't simply create an airtight and well insulated box. You need to take shading very seriously too.
@@Takethis42340 Yes, absolutely. Overhangs and awnings are such simple and effective pieces of technology that have been around for centuries, but seem to be forgotten in some countries. A well-placed deciduous tree might also do the job.
Curious to know what happens when a heat loss calculation is done, but then later on you find that the developers have left gaps in the insulation, skimped on it in some locations, or not installed cavity insulation properly. This would result in the house not getting quite get to temp when it's really cold. Would you need to remove the smaller heat pump and install a bigger one, if the insulation wouldn't be an easy fix?
You could just suppliment the heat pump with electric heating. The heat pump will be correctly sized for 355 days of the year - for the two weeks of really cold weather, you can just apply some local heat. Fixing the insulation would be the best action, as the losses will continue for the next 100 years or so.
It’s also rare that the heat pump is perfectly sized for the stated heat loss, e.g my heat loss is about 4kW but there are few ASHPs that are rated at 4, most are 5kW. So even if something wasn’t quite right, there’s another 1kW to play with too.
and then you will not have any choice to get those - even worse: the smaller houses will have an even lower demand which the modulation can barely cover except turning the compressor on and off and cycle
Where do you get 20-22? All the documentation I can find says ≤ 10W/m2 passipedia.org/basics/building_physics_-_basics/heating_load www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/UserFiles/File/PH%20Intro%20Guide%20update%202013.pdf
Does anyone know what the requirements are for the isolator for the monobloc - I am wondering if I can install the electrical isolator switch in my utility (inside the house) rather than beside the monobloc on the outside
Passive house insulation plus MVHR - finger in the air at -2C and 200m2 (similar to my similar bungalow with average insulation and newer windows which is 6.kW according to my calcs) so I reckon 2-3kW heat loss?
Random question - does having multiple zones (my house has 6 on the ground floor) cause issues with flow balancing? I figured the system was balanced to create equal flow through all the zones, but if they are turned on/off for various reasons, does this mean that one room may get starved of flow depending on the length of the zones the happen to be on etc?
I have underfloor heating in my kitchen and it has two zones controlled independently. UFH uses radiated heat so there is a very good reason to zone it. If you are standing aound a hot oven and active you might want your UFH to work at a lower temperature. You can do this with floor sensors or room stats to shut off zones . Over in the dining area where we also have some seats to relax and watch the television it is nice to have a slightly warmer temperature, Using your open zone method doesn't allow for this. The fact that a heat pump can't cope with this setup is a limitation of the technology.
For anyone considering a heat pump, do your homework extensively. I recently got a heat pump installed and I pretty much knew the size of unit I needed before the installler came around. Micheal Podesta’s channel is a good place to start.
Don't fit North of Manchester..the ambient temperature is way too low plus winters are long and very cold...have loads of experience with this..@@UrbanPlumbers
Dear Szymon and Adam! Amazing video. I am a viewer from the Netherlands and I would really love to do a heat loss calculation myself for my own home. I know all the R/U values etc. How do you do it ? Is the app available for home owners to use? I would love to pay a single fee to do a calculation for my own house.
Hi guys, I notice that the first house had a kitchen hob with a downdraft extractor, do you happen to know if that was connected to the MVHR system? I'm about to start a barn conversion which will have a heat pump and MHVR system and a hob similar to that but no one seems to know if it can be connected to the MVHR system?
@@UKSuperTone neither, kitchen is in an extension and dining area is connected, where we have MVHR extraction. No issues, even though we have good airtightness, standard IKEA extractor with 150mm pipe going straight up and roof vent.
You don't want the lard from the kitchen getting into the your MVHR pipes and heat exchanger, so a lard-filter in the kitchen extractor is a good idea. If you want a hob hood then a recirculating one you change the filter on from time to time is most efficient, because holes in your house are bad. But if you really want to you can just vent it outside, and add a closure so it's reasonably airtight when not in use which is 99% of the time.
Long ago, I did oil heat work here in the US. After hearing your description of the house, my first thought was 3.6KW or 3 ton as we would call it. Most installers over here would probably bump it up to 3.5 ton to avoid complaints figuring the customers won't notice the lower efficiency. 11KW (9 ton)???? Wow.
I came from a geothermal heatpump background started almost 20 years ago open circuit large pipe low temp system simple avoiding distortion accuracy when sizing exc...was actually easy then as general public knew nothing so could do as you pleased nowadays public are difficult want and expect it to be zoned everywhere if you don't supply what they want you don't get the job they think your the hack... Also Installing well is only half the story very few people can diagnose and repair any kind of heatpump when they get older few years pass quickly. Also manufacturers charge too much for parts older machines tend to become economic rightoffs once 7 or 8 years old too chancy to risk expensive repair... manufacturers need to be tacked on this and shamed talking of lowering carbon and then setting people up with esentialy a disposable heating appliance....
It's worse than you think. I know of two passif home builds just completed. Both have heat recovery air systems. The heat pump installation is by different companies. Both heat pumps are large. What you would calculate for a gas boiler perhaps. I asked the home owners if heat loss calculation on the new builds answer. Don't know. One home just running temperature set at 45c. He already complained to me about the high electricity monthly cost. The worry is these companies are using these new passive homes to get more work..And messing up the insulation
What is the heat loss ? What size is the HP ? What company installed it ? (So you can check them out) for starters. No heat loss, ask for a discount so you can get it fixed yourself.
The simple question would be to ask to see the electricity bill. Most of them show the total for the year. A great SCOP is all very well, but if the house is poorly insulated it could still be expensive to heat.
Do not you get more efficiency if you place lets say 500liter buffer for system? Which could take heat from pump on its maximum efficincy power and then shut off, and just use stored heat for floors?
Unfortunately, in our litigious blame culture, naming the developer & installer is more likely to generate legal action instead of a cry for help and support.
i have the preplumbed cylinder and the filter is already connected to the flow side and pump below for the recirculate to the hotwater heater for cylineder so big error from Mitsubishi.
In Germany, heat pumps got magically cheaper after state subsidies have decreased. However, pumps were hard to get because everyone wanted to get a gas heating before they were allegedly not allowed anymore. We were trying to work with a local company that only worked in the heat pump business for over 20 years now and had a pretty good reputation. Unfortunately, they couldn't keep up with the demand - became rude and unreliable; google rating dropped vom 4.x to now 2.3. We're still looking for someone and they all ask around the same amount: 500-1000 Euro above the state funding limit, flat. At one company, you would sign a contract first and then they take a look at your situation.
This is the case with all "new" technologies that have government funding, the price charged by approved installers becomes the open market price plus the government grant rather than minus the grant. It happened with solar panels and EVs in the UK, and now it's the same with heat pumps.
@@garysmith5025 We are now signing a contract with a company that seems competent but is located 300 km away from us. Let's see how they fulfill their service contract...
Question. Are you better off not having room stats for each individual room and just a stat for upstairs and a stat for downstairs which open up all actuators for relevant zone? I know a lot of designers only leave hall way and bathroom open loop but this might not be very efficient at all?
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, seen a Nibe ground source heat pump recently and their engineer had a similar opinion to you about stat. From recollection he said the unit reads the difference in outside temp along with internal temp and return temp on pipe and sets optimum output of heat pump to suit.
What i find interesting is you always say one pump is enough for entire system. When i was installing Under Floor Heating, they said I needed a manifold and pump per floor? I wanted a central manifold for whole house, was they incorrect?
Oh lord. You should see what they do over here in the US. They even talk about "heat pumps" like they're some new technology that the rest of the world hasn't had for 10+ years. Over here they regularly oversize heating by 4x or more .. nobody even does load calculations
Interesting film, as always. This really underlines the problems with everything UK, too many people involved with each stage thereby each one sidesteps responsibility, but all of them wanting ‘a cut’ . Too many vested interests for it to change. Until we get some proper standards that are strictly enforced and organised/accountable, we’ll never improve.
Great video. Oversized heat pumps are a problem though some can operate very efficiently at lower power. This is sometime the silent mode or something like that. That does require inverter technology which I would always recommend. Some additional tips: the cover of the terraced house lady should be removed. The air should flow unrestricted through the outside unit. Installing the outside unit low is actually not good. It has a much easier time circulating air if it is slightly raised. Especially in an area with many walls nearby. On cold nights with very little wind you will get recirculating of cold air back to the outside unit. This makes the unit operate as if it is noticeable colder. You want as much warm ambient air to be drawn in. If two rows of houses with backyards facing each other all have heat pumps they will cause local cooling. Cold air stays put. With AC the out out is hot air which will always escape upwards. COP goes down if the inlet air cools. If there is a small amount of recirculating air it will be a vicious circle. Thanks!
Oversizing is bigger problem than undersizing. Of course, you cannot go too low but for such a new building with very heat loss it is crucial to not oversize the unit. The main problem is minimum modulation on 90% of the year which is usually above heat loss if the case is like you explained here.
It's almost impossible not to oversize the unit because you can't actually buy 2 and 3kW heat pumps yet. (fx:checks) Actually I see Vaillant have a 3.5kW ASHP now (and the old 3kW Geotherm).
Excellent presentation as always , these are all aspects you have talked about before but this time all in one place , I hope you have the chances to re fit some of these system so we can see the results
There is another issue which wasn't picked up on the terraced house, the heat pump is less than a metre away from the boundary. Did it get planning permission?
Yes it will also affect it - how badly it depends on a set up. In real life mixed circuits are very rarely needed. I have installed now well over 40 heat pumps and never had to install a mixed circuit and only 2 installs had buffers
@@UrbanPlumbers i havent decided on an ashp or V-200 but sometimes like the idea of being able to run the groundfloor UFH later at night for the living room but not have the upstairs radiators running when the kids are sleeping. Normally night time I'd have 3 degree set back but this would be cooler in the living room on a winters night
2kw thermal loss max for the house. you will be looking at 500watt electrical consummation of big 8-to-10kw heatpump will be cycling. cop around 3.2 because of no losses
The only way to improve public confidence is by bringing the building regs (Part-L) up to an adequate standard that protects the consumer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but where does commissioning and provision of information set out that a heat loss calculation is provided? Part-L’s efficiency for heat pumps (Table D) also only refers to efficiency as 250%, but commissioning as set out by section 8.9 appears contrary that it should be in accord with ‘manufacturers instructions and appropriate system design parameters’.
This Govt were so concerned about public perception, that they commissioned Nesta to do a survey of MCS accredited ASHP installs that paid respondents £250 just to complete the survey. So no bias there. It found that over two thirds of even the MCS accredited installs relied on a secondary source of heating, of which around half had installed a wood burner. Nesta thought it not necessary to ask why so many rely on secondary heating.
Looks like the developers of that estate have a way to go yet, though still heaps above the others. I'd love it if you guys - Urban Plumbers & Heat Geek et al, - could get in touch with them and help them on the road to doing 'all things heat pump' the informed and Heat Geek way. After all, what is info and training if not to disseminate and inform the masses. . . .
I can't see how you'd do a follow up video this year - there's no way the heating should be needed before November at the earliest. Even in winter the occupants, TV, fridge, lighting, phone chargers etc should be enough to keep the house warm.
Oh dear, what a shame. A new build should be a perfect opportunity to get a heat pump installed correctly. Hopefully the developer will learn from this mistake, although they were probably just following manufacturers schematics for the hydraulic setup. On the plus side it's great to see heatpumps being installed in new builds, even with a disastrous cop of 2, they are still lower carbon than a gas boiler!
Pretty disappointing when you buy a high end home for a premium over standard new build to have such a poor set up. Manufacturers are at fault here too - some pre plumbed “fits all” system are awful and also more expensive - more education needed for manus and installers but also for developers, so they can chose batter subbies
Always loved these videos. I have just one question though. You always seem to recommend reducing the controls to almost or just one zone per house. I'm not sure how that should work in practice... For the classic house of bedrooms upstairs and living rooms down, what happens with just one zone where you want upstairs to be cooler in the evenings for kids being in bed early but adults remaining up downstairs for hours later... If you don't have localised controls in different parts of the house, aren't you down to the whole house being dictated by the needs of one person or area in the house? Is there a video where you guys discuss how to control the heating across the house and what trv valves / controls and thermostats etc you should have where? I've never come across anything to suggest how you go about delivering control to the customer... I'm looking to upgrade my heating system at some point and really want to get it right but the thought of very little control of the individual rooms scares me! Currently I have tado valves in every room which is wonderful for comfort and control but i get plenty of cycling of my very over specified combi boiler.
You just get used to a comfortable house that is ~20C all over. The UK mentality of zone controls comes from drafty cold houses where any unheated part rapidly cools down. Improve that and zoning becomes pointless and irrelevant. That's as much about airtightness as it is about insulation. We got our 1960s 3-bed down to 1.5 ach (from probably about 10 when we moved in), and fitted MVHR as well as a lot of insulation. We just removed bedroom radiators as we like a cool bedroom. You can still have zone controls on UFH and rads, just be aware that using them reduces system efficiency. Ideally (if you like a cool bedroom) you have bedrooms downstairs as heat rises, but of course most UK houses are not arranged that way.
Are there ways of using heat pumps without the need for a tank or masses of pipe work. I've heard of portable heat pumps that do away with all these tanks and things, is there a way of using that to produce a really good heating system that does not include lots of pipe work and water tanks?
@@johnhunter4181 Do you mean air source heat pumps? I heard they use a big exchanger unit which pumps gas through a tube, nit really sure how they work. Cars use heat pumps why isn't there a system like that in evs but for houses or small flats, something that allows you ease of instalation that takes very little room so you can simply place it where you want it without drilling holes in your house or flat.
@@flitsies Portable air conditioners usually have a couple of large hoses that you hang out of a window - they are heat pumps but usually only do cooling. What I'm talking about is a mini-split a/c which has a heat pump outside (you see them everywhere on roofs and balconies abroad) and a wall unit inside. Two small pipes less than 10mm diameter run between them, and they work both ways - either heating or cooling at over 400% efficiency. Every other country in the world uses them but in Britain it only seems to be offices and commercial spaces with building management. We had two installed for a total of £3.5k and they do all our heating.
@@patrickwheeler2646thank you. I looked them up and looks like they are also a big box company. They give an advice based on data given from the customer. There is no heat loss calculation......
@@patrickwheeler2646 They are somewhat, but education of design or more likely retrofitting is not very good. There's also people who do it themselves with a air to water system and just dump heat in the normal radiator system. Some people will replace wall radiators with fancoils (they have active low noise fans that move the air across the coils)
As an engineer I approve of this message. Simpler is always better and more reliable. I am surprised the middle townhouse has the same big heat-pump. That's just silly.
1:24 I don't like the idea of a heat recovery ventilator in the attic; it inevitably needs ducting to and from vents on at least each floor, meaning more power used for circulation, more dust accumulation and more opportunities for conductive losses and leaks. Why didn't they use smaller ductless ventilators and put each under a window in each room?
Can't believe they installed an 11kW unit in a house with a heat loss of 3kW......I guessed 4 and I'm just an enthusiast. I've recently had a quote from British Gas for a Vaillant 7kW unit but as they said I needed every radiator replacing it was £8000 with the BUS. Well out of reach for me sadly.
@@jabberwockytdi8901 Basic radiators are pretty cheap to be fair, a significant part of the cost is labour replacing them, even then, not so much. I just had 6 rads replaced as they were ancient and I didn't want to paint them again, cost me ~£1.2k inc labour; the radiator replacements aren't the cause of an £8000 cost with grant. That's due to other factors, like the existence of a grant pushing up all the costs by... about the amount of the grant! In a property anything like mine, all the radiators are different sizes, which would make attempting to cascade them a pain due to all the pipe adjustments required, whereas a lot of the radiator upgrades involve same length but increasing the height / depth, much simpler. It's not really that practical a solution to cascade them, and not something you'll ever see any large co wanting to do as a matter of course.
This video is revealing 2 problems: - the lack of competency of some system designers - the false data advertise by some HP manufacturers, namely Mitsubishi. You cant design right if the manufacturer does not give you the right data. These issues on Ecodan are so recurring, Mitsubishi is just waiting for a consumer action class against them... Government should act and make sure that what you get is what is advertised.
@10:20 - the comments made don't take into account that this is a pre-plumbed OEM unit from Mitsubishi and the expansion vessel is installed as per Mitsubishi's install documents
we know that - Mitsi designs are a bad joke - filter and expansion in the wrong place, 28mm header for a 11kW unit does not meet needed velocity and causes massive mixing/distortion. Pre-plumbed cylinders are literally efficiency killers. Mitsi has awful designs, but this should not excuse bad installation practices. But i get that - if manufacturers get it wrong what chnces does an average installer have?
@@UrbanPlumbers Yeah, I suppose to people who did not know then they might think another bad house builder, but in this case it's a combination of issues
When I see a new development where the houses feature heat pumps, it makes me less inclined to purchase as I have little confidence, they will have correctly sized all the components. The same goes for the token couple of solar panels some developers are installing just to tick a box. Really pleased with the Vaillant ASHP system installed by Libtek (Alex is one of your Heat Geeks) in our current home. Next home may have to be a self-build or another home with a gas boiler that needs replacing with a Heat Geek installed heat pump.
I spoke to an installer recently who said he always fits 12kW heat pumps. When I replied that it would be much too big for my house he said that it was no problem because it would modulate down to the required output. I didn't take the conversation much further and I intend finding a Heat Geek although there aren't many in my area.
@@UrbanPlumbers My 12kw boiler can only modulate down to about 8kw. I only need 5-6kw so it cycles a lot. I've had to replace the ignitor several times since moving in, as it bends out of shape from heating and cooling constantly. Very annoying.
@@UrbanPlumbers Adam said in the film they don't even make heatpumps small enough for that installation (3kw). Wouldn't you have to rely on oversizing and some modulation?
@@tonydaddario4706 There is a minimum output that the units can run constantly at, any lower demand and it’ll start cycling (i.e. running too high for part of the time, switching off for a while, and repeat). A 5kW unit should be able to run at 3kW, but an 11kW unit like in the video probably just won’t be able to…
Ive installed one of those chinese 18kw pool heat pumps all in ones...just had to pull and connect two pipes to my old heating furnace. A fraction of the cost and free install since i did it myself ( gas is already built in). So far it works great, even when it was -10c this winter.
Great video. Adam mentioned that low loss headers shouldn't be used, in those houses but the Mitsubishi pre-plumbed cylinders, which those houses have, include one. Are Mitsubishi wrong to include it?
It is just a pre plumbed cylinder that is not designed very well. Separation (low loss headers) are almost never needed on jobs that are sub 10kW heat loss, so in this case not a single hosue needs it. It lowers the eiffeincy of those systems.
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Love these collabs. You guys are great. I have learned so much from all of your videos (both channels) that I am installing my own system. Thanks!
The developer and original installers should be named and shamed, they absolutely butchered the heat pump installs on this brand new development.
Yeah. Szymon and Adam are way too nice. And the problem is that $people can't avoid outfits like this if they don't know the names. I guess they are hoping that getting these designers to actually learn how to do it right will be more effective in the long run than naming and shaming. But _in the meantime_ people would like to know. Maybe someone on the development will tell us?
Im pretty certain its Alto Energy - they do installs like this with Mitsibushi heat pumps all the time and have been for years.
@@BristolHeatPumps I had alto design for me, did the day course and that, sounded good if I install the commission and take over.
Did the install for a pal developer and now 6 months on we have realised there running shit.
Done this a few times different companies designing and still the same issues. All new builds and expect a much better performance.
Now I can’t trust anyone to do it and doing the knowledge with heat geek myself.
That saying you want something done properly you do it yourself. That’s my mindset now.
@@stixstonesinvestors5413 yep they are shocking, tbf i would say most umbrellas are very poor quality, if only MCS had some backbone eh!
We are a heat geek ourselves and do all our design in house, its really not difficult to do it properly
@@BristolHeatPumps so true. It really needs to be regulated and rules tightened up.
I know a lot gas engineers who think they know it all and just have that mindset of it’s just a unvented system. They don’t take it serious and if they have someone design it and it don’t work, there attitude is I didn’t design it, it’s there thought.
It’s such a challenge out there ain’t it.
I truly believe the way forward is through heat geek. It’s bloody hard for me but im determined to finish this.
Love your apart of it as well. Good to speak to likeminded people
In Poland, we have been using heat pumps for over 10 years without any issues, with 200,000 units sold annually. They perform excellently even at -15°C. In the UK, despite having milder winters and cheaper electricity, you always seem to encounter problems with heat pumps. Additionally, you regard heat pumps and heat recovery systems as something entirely new, it boggles my mind
UK power cost almost triple the Polish price.
I am assuming 500 zlotys ($123) per megawatt-hour (MWh) for the second half of 2024.
When it gets a lot colder than -1, then the air gets very dry and the heat pump will only need to defrost every 2-3 hours. Between 0 and 3 degrees is the worst ambient condition for a heat pump, because the evaporator can freeze shut every 45 minutes to an hour depending on the operating point and this requires very regular defrosts. Therefore heat pumps can deliver more power and efficiency at -2 degrees then at 2 degrees. UK and the Netherlands have the worst possible climate for air source heat pumps, yet they make it work great anyway. The colder climate in Poland can actualy make it work better in some aspects.
Do you have videos from your installations?
@@andrewstafford-jones4291 The price you've quoted is more of a wholesale electricity price, without distribution costs, additional charges and taxes. As of now, polish households pay about $210 per MWh for the first 1500 kWh they consume this year, anything above that cap is in the area of $330-340 per MWh (and since that cap is quite low, anyone with a heat pump basically runs it on the more expensive electricity only). It is expected that as of July, electricity prices for households will be set at around $280, with no consumption caps.
@@andrewstafford-jones4291 oh please.. I'm paying ~0.25p kWh in Surrey, my mom in Warsaw ~1.15zl kWh (0.23p)
Comparing prices to monthly wages, the cost per kWh in the UK is significantly lower.
Absolutely love you 2 have come together and now a 2nd vid highlighting these issues.
You have to be so on the ball with heat pump installs. I know people installing them just following the design from other companies and I have seen an install which joules designed. I went out to see the install which was a pal that did it because the bills were astronomical.
I could see clearly it was so wrong, 12kw on a small 3 bed new build and thermostats absolutely everywhere.
I said to my pal about a lot of concerns but his reply was I just installed what they said it’s not my problem. I was like……. Geez you can’t be like that.
Heat geek is a lifeline for all that wants to do it the right way. It’s so bloody hard but I love that.
Simon you still the best out there, your content is the best, hope u 2 do more together and bring more light to this industry.
Please keep them coming 👊🏻👊🏻
As a retired heating engineer from uk, i am not surprised at all by what you found, it is the usual situation of designers who dont understand the physics,installers who just follow drawings and may realise its not right but dont get listened too or dont care. And finally commissioning of the system, done by agents who probably dont understand how to set it up,or cant because the installation is wrong. THEN NOBODY IS INTERESTED BECAUSE OF THE MONEY NEEDED TO PUT IT RIGHT.
Another great video. You two make a great team.
Really sad to see that new builds built to a high standard are being let down by shocking heating installations.
Can't imagine what it'll be like once heat pumps are mandatory for all new builds; 2025 in England if im not mistaken.
When an oversized heat pump gets installed for an old leaky retrofit, you can kind of understand why the installers go extra careful even if you know that a proper heat loss calculation is the solution. But with new builds it is inexcusable to get it wrong.
There should be some penalty for the builders.
Blimey. That was pretty scary tbh. For those of us thinking about heat pumps, it's sobering to see "experienced" installers making such a botch of it on a new build property which should be easier than a retrofit. Caveat emptor doesn't even begin to cut it.
Keep up the good work with these videos, really hoping that they can help drive some positive change.
Great video. Many of the ASHP manufacturers have a standard design or schematic that the installers have to follow to maintain warranties and provide sign-off to apply for RHI. For example, the Nibe schematic includes a heat buffer and my installer would not deviate from the design. I'm about to do another new build install and I'm faced with the same for an Ecodan system. Does Heat Geek have a schematic that shows best practices? Or a design listing best-in-class components. Are all of the manufacturer's schematics wrong? I'd love to see a video taking apart what's wrong with each manufacturer's design and showing a drawing of how it's done correctly rather than looking at homeowners' plant rooms, it's too difficult to see what's wrong. Fantastic job guys, I've been following your videos separately so nice to see you working together
It's down to the installers to specify equirement from manufacturers who care about this stuff. Bear in mind that a buffer might have been necessary in your property due to system volume. A buffer isn't automatically wrong, but they are often included when they aren't necessary, or where a small change might eliminate them.
Since learning about heating, with the help of your excellent channel, i've come to the conclusion that it's not just the topic of heat pumps, or even heating in general - house builders for the most part, especially mass market ones, will absolutely do the bare minimum to (barely) meet the regulations. I am sure there are exceptions but most builders just want to smash houses out for maximum profit. I moved into a new build recently and a weather comp sensor was mounted to the outside wall, but not actually wired into the boiler. The sensor was only there so that it could (at a visual inspection level) meet the Boiler Plus regs. Of course, it's a bottom of the barrel combi boiler with a massive minimum modulation, so it cycles constantly, highly inefficient and will probably fail prematurely (at least then I can replace it with a properly sized unit). Radiators are barely big enough for the heat loss, certainly not suitable for low thermal design temperatures. I think the regs changed again recently so that more effort has to be taken to design for lower flow temps ... but im sure the developers will manage to avoid spending too much money on that ... rant over.
I didn't get the impression that these builders were doing the bare minimum to be honest. It seems like they just aren't aware of the best practices when installing heat pumps. They could probably increase their profit by installing lower output heat pumps, a single circulating pump, and not bothering with buffers, zones, e.t.c. Most people probably wouldn't even consider these things when buying a house so I doubt they would expect to pay more for them.
Something that seems like madness to me is I've noticed a lot of new builds have high levels of insulation and air tightness, but then they just core 4 inch diameter holes in every room and fit hit and miss vents. At least this house has MVHR. Retrofitting MVHR is not worth it in most cases so most people will just have to live with that. If the builders can still hit the desired building energy rating without MVHR then it is easy to see why that is happening.
Also according to the video from UK radiators some sellers are not using the accredited verified heat outputs and quoting much higher outputs for their rads. If you are putting in radiators and heat emitters and they are not outputting enough heat you’re going to get issues. The industry as a whole needs not make sure there is top to bottom regulation and really heavy financially punitive fines if they get it wrong.
It's not just that most house-builders do the bare minimum, it's that they have been lobbying government for decades to keep those standards low. We should have had better building regs 20 years ago - the issue has been well-understood for that long, but the housebuilders keep whispering on govts ear 'if you make us build decent housing it will be 'too expensive' and we won't build so many'. It's not actually more expensive of course, for the householder. You save a lot more on energy costs over the building lifetime than it costs to build a passivehouse _and_ you get much more comfortable, less-allergic, quieter housing. And in places where they legislated for it (e.g Brussels from 2017), it hasn't actually cost any extra. Once it's standard a well-insulated airtight building (with a much smaller, cheaper, simpler, heating system) costs the same to build as a crappy one with a big heating system.
@xxwookey 👏
Maybe it's the Englishman house buyers? Just Google: 'false chimneys' - we have a house building program where fake chimneys get glued onto new houses where there could be solar panels!!! This year a new estate went up in our town where half the houses have pretend chimneys. Fake period features sell houses - not insulation or MVHR.
Is this an estate where everyone is a thermo engineer 😂 I love they are all onboard with it. Hope the installer gets the message to fix the mess
The builders are Trivselhus and the largest houses on that development are nearly a £1m so that performance is pretty outragious considering the claims they make, perhaps a class action is required.
@@tonydaddario4706 a court action should be a shoe in
@@tonydaddario4706 On the contrary, I suspect these systems were deliberately over engineered to avoid possibility of complaints of poor heating from demanding wealthy customers. Some people can be very unreasonable, and we all suffer from people covering themselves as a result.
People in other countries besides the us are much more in tune with what a heat pump is. It's mainly the us that is ignorant enough not to learn it.
@@FlyinghookHeat pumps are quite common in the USA - mainly the air-to-air variety. But in the UK they seem to be considered new unproven technology. Boggles the mind.
Love to see your work. We are already 13 years telling clients not to do zoning, and we don't use buffer tanks. Use them only on very big systems where heat pump must have very high flow. Nice work, guys. I always enjoy watching you.
I love these videos, explaining how simple it can be and the big part is heating the whole structure as one. It is crazy how this was done to every house.
passive house spec is 10w/m2 peak load. So 2kw. Worth mentioning that passive house on big developments with simple thermal geometry it only adds 2-5% onto the costs over building code.
That is nonsense because we can't even build to "code" properly so passive house would just go even more wrong.
@@Swwils There could be an argument that a better designed house would be easier to construct correctly. Dense packed insulation between double stud walls, for instance. But the UK is attached to certain ways of building (brick leaf, insulation, concrete block, dot and dabbed plasterboard).
@@asabriggs6426 that's hilarious
@@asabriggs6426 my house isn't built like that, so not really?
@@Swwils Research on real PH builds has found that they actually have a very good record of meeting their design specs, unlike most UK mass-build houses. Because you actually have to pass a fairly stringent airtightness test, and design out a lot of the stuff that brings houses down (thermal bridges, thermal bypass), it's actually _easier_ to build it so it works like it was designed. Said researach was published in passivehouseplus magazine a couple of years ago.
I'm not a professional but I can clearly see the logic here. All experienced contractors are doing the same thing they did since they ware installing the gas boilers which have higer starting temperature which is okay but at least there should be a new name for the Heat Pump installation and some guidelines when installing it. Should this be a part of a manufacturers manual🤔
As always thank you for your videos. Cheers 🍻
The difference is, poor quality boiler installations for the most part work, they are just inefficient. Poor quality heat pump installs, in the worst instances, do not work at all. And all costing 10x the price of an equivalent gas boiler. It's been a long time coming for all these poorly technically educated installers to get caught out!
Well, they work but they’re just outputting way too high witch causes them to short cycle which doesn’t work for an heat pump, where a gas boiler can vary gas level down to 1 out of 16 levels
From what I gathered watching these videos, most boiler installations in the UK are awfully inefficient as well.
Actually with gas boilers their approach is less efficient too. If we are talking under floor heating.
If there is more and colder water going through the boiler.
The heat exchanger can pull more energy from the hot gasses.
However 50 degree C output is never gonna warm an older house with old radiators.
It just won’t create the proper air circulation. Now if you have underfloor heating below and normal radiators above.
You have to put and mixing unit at the underfloor heating.
Because it’s impossible to have the right temperature coming out boiler or heatpump for both heating solutions
We have a couple of problems in the UK - old and poorly insulated homes, gas prices are under 1/3 the cost of electricity meaning you need a COP of @ 3.5 to financially breakeven if you move from gas central heating to heat pump. Lastly, and what these guys are championing, our heat engineers are trained mostly in safely installing the gas central heating and not optimising and design of heat pump systems.
We are definitely behind our European neighbours but channels like this are helping.
you don't get 1kWh of heat for 1kWh of gas. average gas boiler efficiency achieved (rather than the badge efficiency) is about 83%. so you only need a SCOP of about 2.5 to break even on running costs at gas costing 1/3 of electricity
They’re not even trained in installing efficient gas systems,
The gas safe qualification is just that and nothing else I’d say 80% of guys are of the “Fit a 40kw combi mate” mentality.
@hufartd yea that’s the reality - most only understand how to install a gas pipe - that’s all there is.
The gas central heating systems in the UK are absolute cack too. A typical gas boiler is big enough to heat more than five houses, and runs much less efficiently because of this- the return flow temperatures end up much too high, and so they don't condense properly.
@BooBaddyBig they never condense in the Uk and they fail on average after 8 years making UK a cash cow for boiler manufacturers and a haven for cowboy combi slingers - couldn’t make it up
Great video as per usual! The larger point is why is it even legal for installers to be doing this with limited customer comeback? How many billions are the government wasting because of inefficient installs? Imagine the needless load this will put on the grid at a national level vs. if we had well-installed heat pumps? It's really sad to see.
This is a fantastic example of installers not understanding the technology and making things needlessly complicated.
- More expensive to install due to the excessive sizing & extra, redundant parts
- More expensive to run
- More errors (some of which balance out, but many of which compound things)
- More maintenance required due to thrashing/cycling, plus engineers will have to have their wits about them if they want to understand wtf is going on
- More to go wrong in future because of the extra complication
Not sure 'The government' is wasting billions here. It's people buying houses (which could have been cheaper) then spending more moeny to heat them than they should be. So it's individuals/families wasting money (and installers who could do a better job much more cheaply if they actually knew what they were doing).
@@xxwookey regulation is needed, so it is the government's fault imo.
@@defragsbin Sure, the last 20 years of failure to set decent buildings standards has been a huge contributor to the current cost of living crisis and has wasted a great deal of people's money (on expensive heating) and government money on the poor health that poor housing generates. I actually blame mass housebuilders as much as the government - it is they they have been campaigning to keep standards low for decades (and the govt is too innumerate to just ignore them and do the right thing for the populace anyway)
@@xxwookey true, but I believe they also are happy to take their political donations too :(
Great video as usual, with some thought provoking stuff. Mind boggling that, on the face of it, a develeper has gone out with the best of intentions, and produced beautiful houses, but still got it so badly wrong. A couple of things immediately spring to mind....... 1. We need a list of pertinent questions that buyers of such houses need to be asking before they sign. 2. You hint that they are a large well known outfit but you don't name them. How does the unsuspecting public know if they never get called out?!?
It’s a pretty safe bet to avoid all large outfits
@@UrbanPlumbersAhh, interesting. I'm considering getting a heat pump installed because I qualify for ECO4.
Ohhh - those are almost guaranteed to have an atrocious install
@@UrbanPlumbers oh!
Run it at a constant 20 deg over a winter and you get the real heat loss. UK builds have missing insulation, air leaks so I wouldn’t ever trust a drawing.
A great video, thanks. Worth noting that the 11.2kW Ecodan is a power limited 14kW unit, with the same minimum output as the bigger version. Also that Ecodan apparently have a firmware update for excessive cycling that they only install if someone complains. My experience is that the 11kW Ecodan cycles rapidly whenever the heat load goes below about 6kW.
Interesting info, thanks! Would make sense that the 11.2kW and 14 are the same internally just the 14kW has a larger evaporator coil and 2 fans.
Mitsubishi has a big problem with truth when we talk data. The units do not deliver what is on the data book. My 8.5kw does no modulate below 4.5kw when it should go to 3. The energy and cop data displayed on the unit are also completely made up.
@@aymerichousez1005 Not defending Mitsubishi but I think if you were to take away all the supporting hardware and do the testing in a controlled environment, I'm sure you'll get good results that match the book. My 11.2kW is returning about SCOP 4.1 and I think it's just down to running 1 circulator, no hydraulic separation, no 3rd party controls, no TRVs, good emitters, good system balance, no glycol and fairly low flow rates as it's oversized and never needs the full output. Internally these units are 90% the same as the best performing ones from Vaillant, Viessman etc, it's all the pre-plumbed and 3rd party nonsense that drags it all down. And Glycol!
@@Loopyengineeringco I would say that unless you use a 3rd party monitor, you don't know what your cop is. I was at first impressed with the COp shown on my ecodan but when I started to monitor temperature and electrical power independently, I realized that these values can't be trusted. The temperatures are rounded and the power is corrected somehow to makes things looks good.
Whatever they claim from test conditions, the competition performs better. I don't believe that these units are all the same. A Vaillant 7kw weight 190kg, a Mitsubishi 8.5kW is barely 100kg...
@@aymerichousez1005 Yeah definitely don't trust the estimates, I'm using a ultrasonic flow meter (ofgem supplied calibrated unit as part of the MMSP package) and 3rd party CT on the consumer unit to do the calculations. I think you're comparing different chassis sizes - the twin fan ones are naturally heavier. But like for like, you're right in that there's still a bit of difference. Vaillant use piston compressors vs scroll compressors on the Mitsubishi, maybe they have more ballast for damping, or thicker casings? Not sure! The Mitsubishi is definitely a lower quality product though for sure, although I do like the controls, AA mode is really good, external API and hackability etc
I've heard that the Manual J calculation used in the US for calculating heat gain/loss is overly conservative to begin with, then installers pick a higher summer temperature and lower winter temperature to reduce callbacks, and then pick the next bigger size heat/cooling. This produces oversized units which are inefficient during spring and fall.
But what was surprising to me was that unit sizing didn't seem to be done at all before designing the heating system. In most places in the US, it's not possible to get a building permit before sizing the HVAC, and you can't size the HVAC until the windows are selected so the U-values are known, along with insulation and air leakage targets, validated with a blower door test.
The other surprise is that I didn't hear a dehumidifier mentioned. Perhaps that's not a big problem without a cooling cycle, but things like showers can throw a lot of humidity into the air, and with a passive house, a typical bath fan will depressurize the house, and not do much to actually exhaust the humidity. The ERV can help, but only if the bathroom fans are instead the source of the ERV exhaust air.
Great video for a prospective heat pump purchaser such as myself!
Definitely want to know how cop changed.
Same
Amazing video chaps, great job! Really getting to the crux of the problem within this industry. So called 'experts' throwing this nonsense in, thinking they are doing the right thing. Most of whats installed in these houses is just not needed. KISS! As always the haters will blame the heat pump, when in fact its just lazy 'copy and paste' designs from home to home using the 'thats what we've always done' method of system design. The only people who suffer in all of this are the poor homeowners who have to live with a poor system and pay crazy money for their comfort. Manufacturers are also to blame for producing this nonsense that does nothing for good efficiency. One other point to note that I haven't seen mentioned here, is the longevity of the heat pump in this situation, the compressor is likely to fail within 5 years here too, probably just outside of its manufacturers warranty too!
Really enjoyed this video Szymon, I am the renewables manager for Alpha.
I would love to invite you down to see our new heat pump and cylinder, I think you will find it refreshing.
Ps. We’re only down the road!
email me please
Question on the SCOP figures for a super insulated house like these. Would it be lower overall as the system should spend more time on heating the hot water rather than heating the house? Just thinking that it's usually the heating cycle that gets the best COP vs HW so does it skew the numbers a little bit? I would have assumed that they would be in the 5+ figures for SCOP but if there is little heat demand this would drag the average down.
Yes, that is likely. In a house at PH level hot water load can be quite similar to space heating load. It might even be higher. And COP is typically lower on DHW than space heating, so you are correct. But it's a slightly lower SCOP on a much lower total heat/energy load, so it's still all good.
I guess over specifying means more money from the developer (and ultimately customer) for the job. It’s the heat pump equivalent of a 30kw boiler in a 2 bed terraced house.
This model is an 11kw unit, they're marked on their actual output not input. So it's an 11kw heat pump (which should be about ~3kw input). Still this is hugely oversized, should be
@@velianlodestone1249 11kw ecodans modulate to 4kw, it shouldn't be too bad in theory.
@Etacovda63 if it’s 5c outside and the house is zoned it may only need 500watts, so even at min modulation it’s going to be 8x too big
@@UrbanPlumbers yep, so he shouldnt be doing any zoning (and this assumes he wants the entire house at the same temp, of course)
I mean, what, 100L + volumiser to reduce cycling, even with the open zoning... were your calculations at -2c?
THANK YOU! I am commissioning an underfloor heating system right now. I thought it was a bit overengineered and you've confirmed it. I'm going to remove 3 thermostats, 4 actuators and most of the wiring centre :)
Good work boys... the whole point is that these things should be simple to fit...
14:18 yes, you can get HPs that small and actually smaller. Just not the style you're looking for.
Also note that the minimum capacity for that unit is about. 3.5-5kw. (depends on conditions) it's still too big for the house but not as much as it seems at face value.
If it's passivhaus equivalent it's going to be 2 to 3 kw max.with mvhr id be surprised if the heat pump needs to run at all!
In the UK, you'd expect it to have to run in three coldest months for heating, but for the rest of the time, it would only be needed for heating domestic hot water. (The heat loss from the humans, electrical devices and DHW storage and pipe work would keep the house warm the rest of the time)
NL different country same problems.
Keep up the excellent video;s
Thanks guys
This system does seem terribly complicated! Obviously you've got to work with what's there already, but if starting from scratch in designing a building with MVHR, would it make sense to look at air-to-air heat pumps to avoid lots of plumbing (I'm not an expert)?
So is it more efficient to be heating every room constantly at lower temperatures as opposed to be turning zoned spaces on when required.
Yes massively more efficient
@@UrbanPlumbers I have rooms that would not require heating all year round and maybe just at Christmas. Would that not be an unnecessary heat loss
No it wouldn’t. It’s usually more efficient and quite often cheaper to keep most houses up to temp with heat pumps.
The "Passiv" part in Passivhaus was meant to mean that no (or little) active heating or cooling is required by means of thermal insulation, ventilation with heat recovery and proper use of solar gain and shading. It seems to me that these houses don't need hydronic heating at all. A modest floor standing AC unit in the open plan space should suffice. That's how these scandinavian houses were designed. The MVHR takes care of equalizing the temperature throughout the house. This way you save space, you save on installation and you get rid of those radiators upstairs.
It's as if the architect did not feel responsible or the builder did not look at the plans.
Indeed. So are they actually PH, because that doesn't fit all that well with the ~3kW heating load Adam and Szimon calculated. They were presumably not accounting for solar gain the way PHPP does.
I live in a new build with a primary energy use of about 27 kWh/m2. We have a 700W MVHR combined combined heatpump and MVHR and backup direct heating which is off 90% of the time in winter. The biggest compalin I have is that the system isn't powerful enough to fight the solar gains in the summer, which means you have to open the windows (and I'd rather not since I'm allergic). I believe that new builds should have external shutters to fight off solar gains in the summer which can'talways be easily retrofit. In short, solar gains are more important with very energy efficient homes. you can't simply create an airtight and well insulated box. You need to take shading very seriously too.
@@Takethis42340 Yes, absolutely. Overhangs and awnings are such simple and effective pieces of technology that have been around for centuries, but seem to be forgotten in some countries. A well-placed deciduous tree might also do the job.
Curious to know what happens when a heat loss calculation is done, but then later on you find that the developers have left gaps in the insulation, skimped on it in some locations, or not installed cavity insulation properly. This would result in the house not getting quite get to temp when it's really cold. Would you need to remove the smaller heat pump and install a bigger one, if the insulation wouldn't be an easy fix?
You could just suppliment the heat pump with electric heating. The heat pump will be correctly sized for 355 days of the year - for the two weeks of really cold weather, you can just apply some local heat. Fixing the insulation would be the best action, as the losses will continue for the next 100 years or so.
It’s also rare that the heat pump is perfectly sized for the stated heat loss, e.g my heat loss is about 4kW but there are few ASHPs that are rated at 4, most are 5kW. So even if something wasn’t quite right, there’s another 1kW to play with too.
Better to bung up the holes - that's a permanent fix with no ongoing cost or emissions.
Can I ask where the cover for the heat pump came from at the ladies house?
Passive house with recuperator should be around 20-22 w/m^2 so 190 sq m should be around 3.8 - 4.2 kw max.
and then you will not have any choice to get those - even worse: the smaller houses will have an even lower demand which the modulation can barely cover except turning the compressor on and off and cycle
Isn't heat loss dependent on outside temperature?
Where do you get 20-22? All the documentation I can find says ≤ 10W/m2
passipedia.org/basics/building_physics_-_basics/heating_load
www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/UserFiles/File/PH%20Intro%20Guide%20update%202013.pdf
@@VanyaYani Yep, they needed to give us a design temperatures. Odd no one has mentioned this. 😕
Does anyone know what the requirements are for the isolator for the monobloc - I am wondering if I can install the electrical isolator switch in my utility (inside the house) rather than beside the monobloc on the outside
Passive house insulation plus MVHR - finger in the air at -2C and 200m2 (similar to my similar bungalow with average insulation and newer windows which is 6.kW according to my calcs) so I reckon 2-3kW heat loss?
Random question - does having multiple zones (my house has 6 on the ground floor) cause issues with flow balancing?
I figured the system was balanced to create equal flow through all the zones, but if they are turned on/off for various reasons, does this mean that one room may get starved of flow depending on the length of the zones the happen to be on etc?
I have underfloor heating in my kitchen and it has two zones controlled independently. UFH uses radiated heat so there is a very good reason to zone it. If you are standing aound a hot oven and active you might want your UFH to work at a lower temperature. You can do this with floor sensors or room stats to shut off zones . Over in the dining area where we also have some seats to relax and watch the television it is nice to have a slightly warmer temperature, Using your open zone method doesn't allow for this. The fact that a heat pump can't cope with this setup is a limitation of the technology.
Is your set up high temp though?
@@UrbanPlumbers As it's Roger, I think we can guess the answer to that question. 😂
Apart from changing the heat pump if the installers have got the wrong heatpump size what can you do apart from cry? 😞
For anyone considering a heat pump, do your homework extensively. I recently got a heat pump installed and I pretty much knew the size of unit I needed before the installler came around. Micheal Podesta’s channel is a good place to start.
yes - Michael is very good. Buying a heat pump requires customers do the homework.
Don't fit North of Manchester..the ambient temperature is way too low plus winters are long and very cold...have loads of experience with this..@@UrbanPlumbers
Dear Szymon and Adam! Amazing video. I am a viewer from the Netherlands and I would really love to do a heat loss calculation myself for my own home. I know all the R/U values etc. How do you do it ? Is the app available for home owners to use? I would love to pay a single fee to do a calculation for my own house.
Hi guys, I notice that the first house had a kitchen hob with a downdraft extractor, do you happen to know if that was connected to the MVHR system? I'm about to start a barn conversion which will have a heat pump and MHVR system and a hob similar to that but no one seems to know if it can be connected to the MVHR system?
Retrofitted my MVHR, hob is separate.
You don't want the vapour from cooking in your pipework.
@@marcexec Many thanks for that, best answer I've had so far, do you vent under the island then, into the kitchen airspace at floor level?
@@UKSuperTone neither, kitchen is in an extension and dining area is connected, where we have MVHR extraction.
No issues, even though we have good airtightness, standard IKEA extractor with 150mm pipe going straight up and roof vent.
You don't want the lard from the kitchen getting into the your MVHR pipes and heat exchanger, so a lard-filter in the kitchen extractor is a good idea. If you want a hob hood then a recirculating one you change the filter on from time to time is most efficient, because holes in your house are bad. But if you really want to you can just vent it outside, and add a closure so it's reasonably airtight when not in use which is 99% of the time.
@@xxwookey thanks for that, sounds advice, will probably go for a down draft and vent it into the kitchen. Cheers.
Long ago, I did oil heat work here in the US. After hearing your description of the house, my first thought was 3.6KW or 3 ton as we would call it. Most installers over here would probably bump it up to 3.5 ton to avoid complaints figuring the customers won't notice the lower efficiency. 11KW (9 ton)???? Wow.
I came from a geothermal heatpump background started almost 20 years ago open circuit large pipe low temp system simple avoiding distortion accuracy when sizing exc...was actually easy then as general public knew nothing so could do as you pleased nowadays public are difficult want and expect it to be zoned everywhere if you don't supply what they want you don't get the job they think your the hack...
Also Installing well is only half the story very few people can diagnose and repair any kind of heatpump when they get older few years pass quickly. Also manufacturers charge too much for parts older machines tend to become economic rightoffs once 7 or 8 years old too chancy to risk expensive repair... manufacturers need to be tacked on this and shamed talking of lowering carbon and then setting people up with esentialy a disposable heating appliance....
It's worse than you think. I know of two passif home builds just completed. Both have heat recovery air systems. The heat pump installation is by different companies. Both heat pumps are large. What you would calculate for a gas boiler perhaps. I asked the home owners if heat loss calculation on the new builds answer. Don't know. One home just running temperature set at 45c. He already complained to me about the high electricity monthly cost. The worry is these companies are using these new passive homes to get more work..And messing up the insulation
What questions do I need to ask before I move into my new house which has a heat pump installed?
I would want to see the running data before buying a house with one and maybe get. Heatvgeek to inspect it for you
What is the heat loss ? What size is the HP ? What company installed it ? (So you can check them out) for starters. No heat loss, ask for a discount so you can get it fixed yourself.
The simple question would be to ask to see the electricity bill. Most of them show the total for the year.
A great SCOP is all very well, but if the house is poorly insulated it could still be expensive to heat.
Those 11.2 ecodan units are they ok ? Is there a better choice ?
Do not you get more efficiency if you place lets say 500liter buffer for system? Which could take heat from pump on its maximum efficincy power and then shut off, and just use stored heat for floors?
Can someone please say who is the installer? Is it British gas? Is it octopus? I know you want to be polite but people need to know who to avoid!
Next time maybe
Both those companies sub-contract, so you can't generalise. But they are installing for very low costs, so are driving down standards.
How have they solved the outdoor heat pump drainage and ice sheet in the winter being sat on the floor?
Unfortunately, in our litigious blame culture, naming the developer & installer is more likely to generate legal action instead of a cry for help and support.
i have the preplumbed cylinder and the filter is already connected to the flow side and pump below for the recirculate to the hotwater heater for cylineder so big error from Mitsubishi.
In Germany, heat pumps got magically cheaper after state subsidies have decreased. However, pumps were hard to get because everyone wanted to get a gas heating before they were allegedly not allowed anymore. We were trying to work with a local company that only worked in the heat pump business for over 20 years now and had a pretty good reputation. Unfortunately, they couldn't keep up with the demand - became rude and unreliable; google rating dropped vom 4.x to now 2.3.
We're still looking for someone and they all ask around the same amount: 500-1000 Euro above the state funding limit, flat. At one company, you would sign a contract first and then they take a look at your situation.
This is the case with all "new" technologies that have government funding, the price charged by approved installers becomes the open market price plus the government grant rather than minus the grant. It happened with solar panels and EVs in the UK, and now it's the same with heat pumps.
@@garysmith5025 We are now signing a contract with a company that seems competent but is located 300 km away from us. Let's see how they fulfill their service contract...
Question. Are you better off not having room stats for each individual room and just a stat for upstairs and a stat for downstairs which open up all actuators for relevant zone? I know a lot of designers only leave hall way and bathroom open loop but this might not be very efficient at all?
Best not to have any stats and only relay on weather comp
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, seen a Nibe ground source heat pump recently and their engineer had a similar opinion to you about stat. From recollection he said the unit reads the difference in outside temp along with internal temp and return temp on pipe and sets optimum output of heat pump to suit.
What i find interesting is you always say one pump is enough for entire system. When i was installing Under Floor Heating, they said I needed a manifold and pump per floor? I wanted a central manifold for whole house, was they incorrect?
Most likely yes. There is always 5 times more pumps installed than needed
What is the floor made of
Oh lord. You should see what they do over here in the US. They even talk about "heat pumps" like they're some new technology that the rest of the world hasn't had for 10+ years. Over here they regularly oversize heating by 4x or more .. nobody even does load calculations
Wonder what a blower door cfm number is of the home .
Interesting film, as always.
This really underlines the problems with everything UK, too many people involved with each stage thereby each one sidesteps responsibility, but all of them wanting ‘a cut’ . Too many vested interests for it to change.
Until we get some proper standards that are strictly enforced and organised/accountable, we’ll never improve.
If the developers had to pay the customer the excess that the poor install was costing the customer, they would soon change.
What was the real running cost the owners system before and after the changes ?
i see its next to brick ventilation near ground outside will this affect it
Great video. Oversized heat pumps are a problem though some can operate very efficiently at lower power. This is sometime the silent mode or something like that. That does require inverter technology which I would always recommend. Some additional tips: the cover of the terraced house lady should be removed. The air should flow unrestricted through the outside unit. Installing the outside unit low is actually not good. It has a much easier time circulating air if it is slightly raised. Especially in an area with many walls nearby. On cold nights with very little wind you will get recirculating of cold air back to the outside unit. This makes the unit operate as if it is noticeable colder. You want as much warm ambient air to be drawn in. If two rows of houses with backyards facing each other all have heat pumps they will cause local cooling. Cold air stays put. With AC the out out is hot air which will always escape upwards. COP goes down if the inlet air cools. If there is a small amount of recirculating air it will be a vicious circle. Thanks!
Oversizing is bigger problem than undersizing. Of course, you cannot go too low but for such a new building with very heat loss it is crucial to not oversize the unit.
The main problem is minimum modulation on 90% of the year which is usually above heat loss if the case is like you explained here.
It's almost impossible not to oversize the unit because you can't actually buy 2 and 3kW heat pumps yet. (fx:checks) Actually I see Vaillant have a 3.5kW ASHP now (and the old 3kW Geotherm).
@@xxwookey Panasonic has 3 kW without capacity loss down to -7 C
@@HVACEducationHub OK. Good to know. And of course the Air-Air models go lower power too.
Where can you get the Heat Geek heat loss app?
It’s not commercially available. It’s only for the internal use of other HG.
@@UrbanPlumbers That is a shame, it looks perfect for my needs. Excellent videos please keep them coming
PassiveHaus standard for 190sqm? About 3kw heat loss?
#Nailedit 😂
Excellent presentation as always , these are all aspects you have talked about before but this time all in one place , I hope you have the chances to re fit some of these system so we can see the results
Heatloss at what external temperature?
-2
@@UrbanPlumbers Thank you, we have alot of cycling in our heatpump, i wish i could show a picture of the graph here.
There is another issue which wasn't picked up on the terraced house, the heat pump is less than a metre away from the boundary. Did it get planning permission?
Not an issue - it’s new build so all went through planning
Does having no thermostats but two mixed pump sets (divicons) one for the UFH and one for the radiators, does that affect efficiency badly or not?
Yes it will also affect it - how badly it depends on a set up. In real life mixed circuits are very rarely needed. I have installed now well over 40 heat pumps and never had to install a mixed circuit and only 2 installs had buffers
@@UrbanPlumbers i havent decided on an ashp or V-200 but sometimes like the idea of being able to run the groundfloor UFH later at night for the living room but not have the upstairs radiators running when the kids are sleeping. Normally night time I'd have 3 degree set back but this would be cooler in the living room on a winters night
Wow, just one of those heat pumps could heat 3 homes in theory.
Not a bad idea at all.
The systems apparently have enough zones to do it too!
The major sticking point would be billing.
Tbh they probably could just have put a tiny reversible air conditioner into the ventilation system and just not do all the plumbing.
2kw thermal loss max for the house. you will be looking at 500watt electrical consummation of big 8-to-10kw heatpump will be cycling. cop around 3.2 because of no losses
The only way to improve public confidence is by bringing the building regs (Part-L) up to an adequate standard that protects the consumer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but where does commissioning and provision of information set out that a heat loss calculation is provided? Part-L’s efficiency for heat pumps (Table D) also only refers to efficiency as 250%, but commissioning as set out by section 8.9 appears contrary that it should be in accord with ‘manufacturers instructions and appropriate system design parameters’.
This Govt were so concerned about public perception, that they commissioned Nesta to do a survey of MCS accredited ASHP installs that paid respondents £250 just to complete the survey. So no bias there. It found that over two thirds of even the MCS accredited installs relied on a secondary source of heating, of which around half had installed a wood burner. Nesta thought it not necessary to ask why so many rely on secondary heating.
not my experience - most hosues with heat pump we install or visit do not have secondary heating. Only around 5% have wood burners - that is all.
@@UrbanPlumbers Nesta survey was largest survey in U.K. with 2500 respondents. But really good yours don’t. That’s how it should be.
I know I got asked to do it but on question number 238999 I told them do get lost 🤣🤣🤣
What heat loss is is accounted for a 200 litre cylinder like in the video?
Part L of the building regs limits heat loss to 130w an hour. I'd expect that cylinder to be losing about half that, so 70 watts an hour.
Looks like the developers of that estate have a way to go yet, though still heaps above the others. I'd love it if you guys - Urban Plumbers & Heat Geek et al, - could get in touch with them and help them on the road to doing 'all things heat pump' the informed and Heat Geek way. After all, what is info and training if not to disseminate and inform the masses. . . .
Great video. Would love to see a follow up video if you end up going back to fix any of them and the following results.
that is the idea. We are tyring to get manufacturers on board to help with the cost of putting this right.
@@UrbanPlumbers What is the smallest a2w heat pump you can buy??
Around 4kW, but there are exhaust air units that can be below 3kW
I can't see how you'd do a follow up video this year - there's no way the heating should be needed before November at the earliest. Even in winter the occupants, TV, fridge, lighting, phone chargers etc should be enough to keep the house warm.
@@UrbanPlumbersCould one of these exhaust air units be configured for houses with low heat demand ?
And the app is available where?
It’s not available outside of the heat geek network
Very interesting. Seems quite complicated for the consumer to know whats right or wrong.
Oh dear, what a shame. A new build should be a perfect opportunity to get a heat pump installed correctly. Hopefully the developer will learn from this mistake, although they were probably just following manufacturers schematics for the hydraulic setup. On the plus side it's great to see heatpumps being installed in new builds, even with a disastrous cop of 2, they are still lower carbon than a gas boiler!
Pretty disappointing when you buy a high end home for a premium over standard new build to have such a poor set up. Manufacturers are at fault here too - some pre plumbed “fits all” system are awful and also more expensive - more education needed for manus and installers but also for developers, so they can chose batter subbies
@@UrbanPlumbers totally agree 👍
4kW? - I would love to know how good this number can get with upgrades during extension work to an existing property!
Just found this channel.
I would love to see these P&IDs posted so people can learn and copy.
Or do you have a training video?
What’s P&ID?
13:15 you will need that if you are also heating the hot wather and that blender under the config temperature is not mixing anything.
Always loved these videos. I have just one question though. You always seem to recommend reducing the controls to almost or just one zone per house. I'm not sure how that should work in practice... For the classic house of bedrooms upstairs and living rooms down, what happens with just one zone where you want upstairs to be cooler in the evenings for kids being in bed early but adults remaining up downstairs for hours later...
If you don't have localised controls in different parts of the house, aren't you down to the whole house being dictated by the needs of one person or area in the house?
Is there a video where you guys discuss how to control the heating across the house and what trv valves / controls and thermostats etc you should have where? I've never come across anything to suggest how you go about delivering control to the customer...
I'm looking to upgrade my heating system at some point and really want to get it right but the thought of very little control of the individual rooms scares me! Currently I have tado valves in every room which is wonderful for comfort and control but i get plenty of cycling of my very over specified combi boiler.
You just get used to a comfortable house that is ~20C all over. The UK mentality of zone controls comes from drafty cold houses where any unheated part rapidly cools down. Improve that and zoning becomes pointless and irrelevant. That's as much about airtightness as it is about insulation. We got our 1960s 3-bed down to 1.5 ach (from probably about 10 when we moved in), and fitted MVHR as well as a lot of insulation.
We just removed bedroom radiators as we like a cool bedroom. You can still have zone controls on UFH and rads, just be aware that using them reduces system efficiency. Ideally (if you like a cool bedroom) you have bedrooms downstairs as heat rises, but of course most UK houses are not arranged that way.
Are there ways of using heat pumps without the need for a tank or masses of pipe work.
I've heard of portable heat pumps that do away with all these tanks and things, is there a way of using that to produce a really good heating system that does not include lots of pipe work and water tanks?
Air Conditioning does exactly that.
@@johnhunter4181 Do you mean air source heat pumps? I heard they use a big exchanger unit which pumps gas through a tube, nit really sure how they work.
Cars use heat pumps why isn't there a system like that in evs but for houses or small flats, something that allows you ease of instalation that takes very little room so you can simply place it where you want it without drilling holes in your house or flat.
@@flitsies Portable air conditioners usually have a couple of large hoses that you hang out of a window - they are heat pumps but usually only do cooling. What I'm talking about is a mini-split a/c which has a heat pump outside (you see them everywhere on roofs and balconies abroad) and a wall unit inside. Two small pipes less than 10mm diameter run between them, and they work both ways - either heating or cooling at over 400% efficiency. Every other country in the world uses them but in Britain it only seems to be offices and commercial spaces with building management. We had two installed for a total of £3.5k and they do all our heating.
Based on watching all your videos - between 3 and 4 kw
Keep up the good work - my Brother has a ground source heat pump in Poznan which works fine 😉
After watching Technology Connections about heat pumps, I thought around 4 kW.
I wish we in The Netherlands had guys like you.....❤
I hear Heat Transformers are popular over there?
@@patrickwheeler2646thank you. I looked them up and looks like they are also a big box company. They give an advice based on data given from the customer.
There is no heat loss calculation......
@@patrickwheeler2646 They are somewhat, but education of design or more likely retrofitting is not very good. There's also people who do it themselves with a air to water system and just dump heat in the normal radiator system. Some people will replace wall radiators with fancoils (they have active low noise fans that move the air across the coils)
What is meant by the heat pump "cycling" ? Is this bad ?
Turning on and off constantly - yes it’s bad if excessive
As an engineer I approve of this message. Simpler is always better and more reliable. I am surprised the middle townhouse has the same big heat-pump. That's just silly.
They could only get a good deal on 10 of the same size?
1:24 I don't like the idea of a heat recovery ventilator in the attic; it inevitably needs ducting to and from vents on at least each floor, meaning more power used for circulation, more dust accumulation and more opportunities for conductive losses and leaks. Why didn't they use smaller ductless ventilators and put each under a window in each room?
Can't believe they installed an 11kW unit in a house with a heat loss of 3kW......I guessed 4 and I'm just an enthusiast.
I've recently had a quote from British Gas for a Vaillant 7kW unit but as they said I needed every radiator replacing it was £8000 with the BUS. Well out of reach for me sadly.
Try Octopus, they say they include radiator changes as park of the quote. I've not used them personally mind you.
@@jabberwockytdi8901 Basic radiators are pretty cheap to be fair, a significant part of the cost is labour replacing them, even then, not so much. I just had 6 rads replaced as they were ancient and I didn't want to paint them again, cost me ~£1.2k inc labour; the radiator replacements aren't the cause of an £8000 cost with grant. That's due to other factors, like the existence of a grant pushing up all the costs by... about the amount of the grant!
In a property anything like mine, all the radiators are different sizes, which would make attempting to cascade them a pain due to all the pipe adjustments required, whereas a lot of the radiator upgrades involve same length but increasing the height / depth, much simpler. It's not really that practical a solution to cascade them, and not something you'll ever see any large co wanting to do as a matter of course.
Why aren't you using PHPP software?
What’s that?
This video is revealing 2 problems:
- the lack of competency of some system designers
- the false data advertise by some HP manufacturers, namely Mitsubishi. You cant design right if the manufacturer does not give you the right data. These issues on Ecodan are so recurring, Mitsubishi is just waiting for a consumer action class against them...
Government should act and make sure that what you get is what is advertised.
what issues with ecodan are you talking about?
What's the issue with Mitsubishi? I have an old R410A one, so I'm interested in what data you think is false.
@@jeffhenderson9595 that's called consumer protection and fair competition. I though that what I was paying tax for!
Can you gives us a follow up to show their improvement?
Nothing has been improved. Developers claim they did a great job and said if we touch it warranty will be void.
The mitsibushi systems are all pre installed aren’t they?.
Pre plumbed cylinders yes
@10:20 - the comments made don't take into account that this is a pre-plumbed OEM unit from Mitsubishi and the expansion vessel is installed as per Mitsubishi's install documents
we know that - Mitsi designs are a bad joke - filter and expansion in the wrong place, 28mm header for a 11kW unit does not meet needed velocity and causes massive mixing/distortion. Pre-plumbed cylinders are literally efficiency killers.
Mitsi has awful designs, but this should not excuse bad installation practices. But i get that - if manufacturers get it wrong what chnces does an average installer have?
@@UrbanPlumbers Yeah, I suppose to people who did not know then they might think another bad house builder, but in this case it's a combination of issues
When I see a new development where the houses feature heat pumps, it makes me less inclined to purchase as I have little confidence, they will have correctly sized all the components. The same goes for the token couple of solar panels some developers are installing just to tick a box. Really pleased with the Vaillant ASHP system installed by Libtek (Alex is one of your Heat Geeks) in our current home. Next home may have to be a self-build or another home with a gas boiler that needs replacing with a Heat Geek installed heat pump.
Yes Libtek are good!
I spoke to an installer recently who said he always fits 12kW heat pumps. When I replied that it would be much too big for my house he said that it was no problem because it would modulate down to the required output. I didn't take the conversation much further and I intend finding a Heat Geek although there aren't many in my area.
Same guys used to say that about oversized boilers - ohh they just modulate down
@@UrbanPlumbers My 12kw boiler can only modulate down to about 8kw. I only need 5-6kw so it cycles a lot. I've had to replace the ignitor several times since moving in, as it bends out of shape from heating and cooling constantly. Very annoying.
@@UrbanPlumbers Adam said in the film they don't even make heatpumps small enough for that installation (3kw). Wouldn't you have to rely on oversizing and some modulation?
Yeah, I'm getting the same in Ireland. "Oh it modulates"
@@tonydaddario4706 There is a minimum output that the units can run constantly at, any lower demand and it’ll start cycling (i.e. running too high for part of the time, switching off for a while, and repeat). A 5kW unit should be able to run at 3kW, but an 11kW unit like in the video probably just won’t be able to…
How did they get it so wrong?
Ive installed one of those chinese 18kw pool heat pumps all in ones...just had to pull and connect two pipes to my old heating furnace. A fraction of the cost and free install since i did it myself ( gas is already built in). So far it works great, even when it was -10c this winter.
Great video.
Adam mentioned that low loss headers shouldn't be used, in those houses but the Mitsubishi pre-plumbed cylinders, which those houses have, include one. Are Mitsubishi wrong to include it?
It is just a pre plumbed cylinder that is not designed very well. Separation (low loss headers) are almost never needed on jobs that are sub 10kW heat loss, so in this case not a single hosue needs it. It lowers the eiffeincy of those systems.
So, it there a follow-up video?