On the subject of old properties. My old, 1910, solid brick, terraced, country cottage in Wales has recently had a complete retrofit, including internal wall and loft insulation, all pipework and radiators replaced, Ecodan ASHP and sola panels installed. All working perfectly well.
You lot in Wales have been really lucky over the past few years. Government put you guys on the top of the list for the Eco4 Grant, the grant that completely updates old homes with old oil boilers (the majority of homes in Wales) with all the things you mentioned. All my mum's aunts and relatives in Wales have solar and ASHP with insulation now. Two of them had it shut down within the first few weeks from faults, apparently they were installed and just left on 'default mode', and another one ended up costing twice as much as her old oil heating/HW bills cost her, but they eventually had them sorted out. We're awaiting our Eco4 installation to go through now in England. Our house was built in 1808... extended in the 60s, but almost zero loft insulation and zero wall insulation. Been waiting for planning permission to be granted for the heat pump for almost a whole year now. In Wales you guys got it so quickly :(
I don't think you can describe that house as average but it is obviously probably one of the most difficult to fit a heat pump in. I'm looking forward to seeing further videos on progress.
2:15 ...and also, this whole house has been renovated top to bottom, so we can't open the walls. How tf does one go about renovating the whole house and not doing first things first, such as real actual plumbing!! Mindblowing, that.
And why not insulate the walls while he was renovating?? Not the best advert for HeatGeek when the CEO didn't consult Adam or one of his many trained up engineers for advice and get the place insulated as part of the renovation work. Even if he is doesn't understand heat pumps, surely he understands heat loss and the value of insulation whatever heating system you use. I'm just a bit bemused by the whole video.
@@JohnThomas-ey1hx Probably a little confusing... Aadil became CEO AFTER... It started with renovating his home (and doing a bunch of fabric upgrades, by the way!) but failing to get a Heat Pump in place. He reached out to Adam using this personal experience as fuel to quit his job and team up with Adam. Only then did he become CEO, learning and exploring what the real solution was and is now working with Adam to scale this to ensure no-one else ends up in the same position! Hope that clarifies!
Really interesting video (as I have a house with similar issues). But …. I thought there were minimum clearance distances between a heat pump and an opening window due to the (slight) risks from the refrigerant leaking?
My Edwardian mid terrace house had an HP install that performs the best of any system the design company has ever seen, I average 3.6cop but sometimes up to 5.5. No wall insulation, loft insulation and double glazing only. It’s possible just don’t over size your pump. Surveys assume cold houses either side but with neighbours both party walls have no losses
I second this! I've asked installers for proposals and they tend to come up with proposals without taking such detailed notes and making calculations. Obviously I'm not going for that...
It's their own software, not publicly available... yet (maybe in the future?) I do know though that they have an integration with Polycam, which is what they use for all the dimensions / room scanning. So you could probably align that with Heat Punk and get a close estimate. But its obviously not as slick as having it all in one, and likely missing the calculations / knowledge that Heat Geek have obtained over the years
Why not go with a heat pump mini-split a/c system? Get the benefit of both heating and cooling. Unit goes on the roof in the same spot and you only need power. No need to play with water or have radiators in the way of your furniture.
@chrismorton5460 sorry but that's just a non answer to a valid question. To correctly evaluate how good their solution would be you need to be able to evaluate the alternatives.
@@Felix-st2ue because theres literally no pathways to install all of what you're talking about. How are you going to A) install the internal units B) install the refridgerant lines and C) heat your hot water. Its not a non-answer, its 100% valid.
Looking forward to the install. Nothing is impossible, its about how much time and effort the installer wants to put in and also how much the client is willing to spend. Be interesting to see what a real quote (not a friends rates one) would be compared to an 'easy' fit. Also I'm assuming that the client has done all the other bits, such as insulating everywhere, etc. I feel the cost of all of that on top of the heat pump install is much higher than the average or median UK terraced house owner (it might just be affordably possible for Londoners).
No mention of electric power consumption and if upgrades are required for consumer unit, or how on earth power is getting to the heat pump. To have undertaken a remodel like this and not done badic upgrades in preparation is mind blowing.
I can’t remember whether I’ve asked this before. Vaillant & a couple of other OEMs have integrations to heat batteries like Sunamp. These have a better & more compact form factor than cylinders. In addition they are low loss. Would a Heat Geek consider one of those in place of a mini store?
We've done a fair bit of research into this for our house and the issue is that most heat batteries need higher flow temperatures to actually handle the phase change, so you lose out on efficiency. The MiniStore is a clever bit of kit because it's designed to work better at the flow temps you're already expecting for a wet heatpump system.
@@JamesScholesUK the latest refrigerant now caters for the higher temperature so heat batteries are an option and also qualify for the grant. My research led me down the heat battery route, however in the end a custom made tank to fit in the small space i have was cheaper and requires lower flow temp. Personal choice. Believe the mini store is actually about the same size as a heat bat. You may need the biggest heat bat to meet your needs, the mini store effectively acts as a combi boiler producing continuous hot water whereas the heat battery doesn't (or has to us a heating element to maintain).
@@chrischild3667 Yeah, it's horses for courses absolutely. We're probably looking at A2A mini-split for the house (large south facing windows so it gets hot in summer) so either an emitter to a ministore or a Givenergy tank with integrated HP exchanger in the loft. The advantage of the Givenergy is you can have a full-sized cylinder but opt to not put the HP on top as it's modular
@@JamesScholesUK Disclosure here- I’m just an interested consumer. I believe Sunamp has a phase change mix now in their Thermino range that changes state at 58 degrees centigrade. This is lower than the temperature required, at least periodically, in cylinders to prevent Legionella. They also don’t need a Legionella cycle. If you had a flow temperature of 45 or 50 for the heating then the delta is less for the hot water cycle. It would be interesting to see if this improves HW SCOP & therefore overall combined efficiency.
Does anyone know if placing a heat pump on the roof causes issues with vibration or noise? We're considering something similar, as our garden is very small. We're planning to install it on a flat roof as part of a side return extension.
Good to know a heat pump isn't a total waste in a old terraced like mine, I think I'd probably be more inclined to invest in solar first as a fairly heavy electricity user but I suppose that only makes a heap pump make even more sense. I'd definitely be sticking a roof terrace on that extension though!
A heat pump, even on cold winter days, should take 2kW of solar energy and convert it into nearly 8kW of heat for your hot water, so it's much more efficient that a Solar diverter that dumps the solar energy into an immersion heater.
Funny thing is that I used your website earlier today after watching another one of your videos. Got quoted nearly £15k for an install. Not your fault, the equipment is not cheap and well trained labour isn't either but even with the government grant I think I'll be sticking with gas for the foreseeable future.
There are enough good cheaper installers problem is if they are not MCS you can't get the Grant. MCS is the thing holding Heat Pumps back as some of the installers see it as a lisence to charge a fortune and believe me I have seen some shocking installs by so called MCS registered engineers and have had to re do o e of them
Did you take a look at the financing option? If up-front cost is not doable, many customers can see a business case if they pay monthly - the energy bill savings can offset the cost of the install...
@@HeatGeek I think their point is not about upfront cost but rather the maths of the ROI. Example: £10k ASHP vs £3k gas boiler would need to save you £7k over 10 years (let's assume that lifespan). When the quote expects to save £100 per year in energy costs it isn't even nearly viable as you're still £6k out of pocket by the end of the 10 years. The finance only exacerbates that by adding interest on top of that financial loss.
Happy for you guys to give my 1865 Victorian Mid-Terrace House in Scotland a go, happy to pay for the services but I don't think its possible. I have been racking my brain for months and siting and plumbing seems the biggest problems that I cant figure out.
Just stick with the existing boiler and save all that complicated new equipment having to be manufactured, imported and installed, plus, of course, avoiding the scrapping of a perfectly serviceable boiler and other kit.
The embodied emissions of a heat pump are typically less than one year of gas-burning, so the embodied energy in new equipment is a very poor argument for not making the switch. sticking with the boiler means you will still have an ongoing large carbon footprint from heating and DHW. You'll have to decarbonise eventually. In general the sooner the better - it's one of the most effective changes many people can make.
@@xxwookey Don't forget the embedded energy in the equipment being scrapped, the embedded energy in having to construct new energy transmission infrastructure, and that the electricity to run the heat pump has in large part to be generated from fossil fuels. Additionally, even if this country could magically stop using any fossil fuels, the effect on the global climate would be somewhere between zero and too small to be measurable.
@@xxwookey Of course, there's also the embodied energy in the equipment being scrapped. Then there's the embedded energy needed to for the new electricity infrastructure required for such installations, not to forget that a large part of the electrical energy generated comes from fossil fuels, and this will be the case for many years ahead. At the time of writing (1800hrs on the 3rd Nov.) wind is contributing 4% of electricity generation, and solar 0%.
@@davidscott3292 None of that makes it better to stay on gas. Obviously how quickly you will get ahead depends on where you live. New wind turbines pay back their embodied energy in less than 6 months. Solar a year or so. Remaining fossil fraction depends where you are but is declining everywhere (under 50% in the UK). So long as your local grid intensity is under 500 gCO2e/kWh then your new install will be better than sticking with gas. The UK is at 160 now. I don't know where you are.
@@davidscott3292 Embodied energy in equipment to be scrapped has already been spent. Electrical grid has more than sufficient capacity, and is rapidly getting cleaner (currently averaging 35-50% renewables depending on the day, iirc, and increasing every year - although yes there will be periods of little renewable generation, which is typically covered by batteries instead - which don't show on those 'generation' stats)
@@pumpkinhead456what was your overall heat loss, size/brand of heat pump? My house is a similar age and exactly the same size strangely enough at 270m2. Did you replace a gas or oil fired boiler? Your feedback would be really useful
I'm Interested to see the total cost including floor, wall insulation plus the heat pump etc. in a typical 3 bed detached pre 1919. (Although many brick built houses even up to late 1920's were still solid wall.
@@lordmord8378 Not really, insulating a detached house is MUCH MUCH easier. But even more so, you can easily fit an insane 11KW (3 phase) before COP heat pump in those cases.
I watched a lot of your videos a year or so ago when I moved house (1930s semi, solid wall). Bit confused/disappointed in myself as much as anything, as I believed my house would need significant upgrades in order to be heat pump ready - eg new windows, wall insulation, loft insulation. But this house is similar, solid wall, I presume no internal wall insulation fitted (on old parts). I imagine the glazing will be better insulation (although mine aren't that old, 18 years, double glazed). I guess ultimately it doesn't matter as it was our first house and didn't have the extra cash to spend, but it makes me wonder how far away we really were/are from a heat pump setup.
Probably can be done straightaway, it's (almost) all about the radiator sizing rather than insulation that determines efficiency. If you can upgrade loft insulation to 300mm, then do so anyway, but otherwise with a good heating engineer see what the lowest flow temperature it can be designed for without the radiators being stupid sized - though you'll probably be surprised in a good way!
This is the Heat Geek Upgrades platform. Our trained and verified installers get access to it as part of joining the Heat Geek network. It speeds up designs, reduces admin overhead and helps them to deliver the highest efficiency installs in the industry!
Hey Adam, I do hope Aadil was collecting the hot shower water below you for washing up, around 11.30mins in? As I was starting to twitch at the amount of wasted water. 🤪😉
I see the Blackbird P80 heatpump of WeHeat specifically designed for flat roofs and these type of situations being installed in mainland Europe. Do these also exist in the UK?
Great to see this video, yes there will be more difficult ones without the rear extensions but plenty of terraces houses do have or are planning rear extensions. Plus the planning restrictions are being consulted on and could be eased, the units are getting quieter and the economics could change as solutions are standardised and if the price of electricity falls relative to gas that would be a game changer. But agree that A2A options should be investigated as a realistic alternative and A2W is artificially supported by the subsidy, if the subsidy was applied fairly to both technologies, A2A would be a more economic solution for many homes with the benefit of cooling which is going to be increasingly important in the next few generations.
Great video. This gives me hope. Had two big HP installers around (a Swedish company and 8 limbed mollusc) who said they would not install on our semi detached. Does the HP have to be 1 metre from a window, and do we have to have a 200l tank for 4 people (45l pp)? Or are these just recommendations? Both factors have been supposed showstoppers for us, despite us being willing to compromise. Frustrating.
Open window question. Im having a heatpump next year as part of my extension and its going near/below a window and I've been told to get a non opening window as they shouldn't be installed near windows. The 1m around boundary is really tuff to get around.
There is a specific R290 gas "exclusion zone" that needs to be complied with as it was in this instance. We didn't shoot that part of the video but provide tools for Wes to ensure he complies with that bit too!
High Adam, Love your stuff and it inspired me when designing and installing my own Vaillant Aerotherm+ 7kw. sytem. One question can you add your weather compensation curve setting to your Emoncms page on the open heat pump site? I see it's at the default of 0. I'm slowly tweaking mine down from 0.5 and frequently compare my compressor cycling rate with yours. Would like to know what your's is set to if it's not a secret.
I'd assume there is a rather large difference between being physically able to install a heat pump and it being a cost effective choice for a particular property. You could install a heat pump in a Roman fort, but that does not mean it's going to heat it efficiently.
Can't do hot water from what I understand but does give you heating and cooling. ATA is just an Aircon. I think all heat pumps should be reverse cycle so you can chill the home in summer.
@@Robert-cu9bm I am aware of what ATA is and isn’t capable of , some people just want ATA and they don’t need hot water because they have water heaters that give instant hot water on demand rather than heating up a tank of water which they don’t need , to get a full picture of heat pumps capabilities it should cover all aspects, you don’t have a garage full of many models of cars yet you only show customers one model .
@@sn0tkore I have wet central heating with a gas boiler , yet I can’t understand why the ATA system is not being incorporated in the overall criteria of the heat pump availability , personally looking at the replacement of my boiler and seeing what would benefit oneself the ATA system seems to be a better system for my needs , if I was trying to change the mindset and to give the public an alternative to gas but it is only covering a tiny bit of the overall solution, talking with friends around the world can’t believe we have a heat pump to heat cold water and make it warm to then give heat for the home when you can get instant heat with ATA which cost less to run .
@@Robert-cu9bm ATA is not just aircon, it provides heating as well, the only thing it won't do is hot water, but there are many discreet solutions for that. In order for A2W to provide cooling in Summer, it has to have fan coil radiators, these would not be practical in this particular installation.
Possibly yes/no !... It is dependent on heat loss of the rooms and whether the existing pipe size (what ever size pipe it is) will allow sufficient flow to fulfill that requirement. After that flow temperatures can be considered etc etc. It all starts with a heat loss/installation survey. It is a complex area especially in a retrofit installation that requires experience and time. I hope this helps.
Typical Australian houses of that era have all the same problems of the English ones, plus ten foot ceilings in every room! I am doubtful about ever being able to convert my Victorian in Melbourne to an ASHP system. I tried turning my condensing boiler down to 60C flow temps for a bit last winter, and there was no way it would be able to keep the house warm enough on cold days. And that's with new R6 insulation throughout the roof. I was really disappointed, because I had hoped it would work out and give me a chance of moving to an ASHP in the future. For now it doesn't look feasible, at least without potentially doubling the size of all the rads. I think a more likely path in my case will be mini-splits for the remaining three rooms that don't already have them. For Melbourne, you can understand that the bonus of being able to cool as well as heat will be worth it. I just wish I had thought of this and done my research before I spent $10k to modernize the hydronic system after I bought the house.
Try mixing air with some ceiling fans. It is percievabely warmer up there than where you are sat (1-2 meter difference depending if you like your feet or torso warmer, due to convection and stratification temperature difference can be a couple C). I can personaly feel the difference between north and south side of the house on the same level where thermometers show 0.5-1C difference.
@@RESPIRAATORS yeah this is a really good point. I don't know how feasible that will be in my lath and plaster ceilings with plaster ceiling roses. But it could be done.
@@literatesavant fan coils are far more suitable. If you can get to the piping it could be insulated and also provide cooling (but A2A makes more sense)
Research stage?😂 He talks about terraced houses where ground floor and garden is own by someone with it's own door, and first floor is basically a flat with it's own door. This houses are not new.
@@mihairachita174 No I was asking about 'PVT' heat pump systems, which I've never heard of before, i.e., are they on the market or are they at the research stage (after all, why would I think that the 1960s maisonette that I said I'm living in would be at the research stage)?
@@WyndStryke Nibe PVT 40 is one such one. It's basically a ground source heat pump in the building, but instead of the collector being in the ground it's on some PVT panels. There is an expansion on that system (which I believe has a test installation in Germany - so very much research stage) where there's both a ground loop and PVT array, and the system has the potential to use the PVT in daytime, and ground loop overnight. The ground loop can also provide some heat to the PVT collector, so it melts snow off the array. And solar in summer can warm up the ground loop to provide better efficiency in winter. Really cool, whether that whole thing comes to market or not remains to be seen.
With 45-50C flow temperatures standard radiators will have poor convection. UFH not a problem with those temps but in the rooms with radiators, you may have sufficient radiator output but how do you circulate that heat around the room without it stagnating near the wall on which the rad is mounted?
It doesn't have poor convection, I'm currently running at 37c flow temperature and my rooms are very warm (21c) all over. There is also sofas in front of the radiators. It might not convect as quick as 70c flow but it does convect but runs much longer and you get less temperature gradient in the room making it much more comfortable. Not only that, the walls act like thermal batteries as they're heated all day at lower temperatures, a bit like walking past a wall on an evening on a sunny day and you can feel it.
Octopus have just tried and failed to find a HP solution for my similar (1920s built, combi boiler, tricky to site HP) home. The water cyclinder was the main problem as there is no where sensible it can go without a structural survey of my loft. Your mini store would solve several of the challenges. Are you commmercially installing them now?
I’m intrigued by that location for the heat pump. What are the rules? 5m was mentioned? Also any idea what sort of strength of support is needed (I have a sloped roof so would have to build something to make it work?
@@Liam_Hirst interesting. The challenge for me would be how does the engineer service it… I don’t have the easy access flat roof. If I could make it work it’s a game changer mind as I have no where to put the outside unit really.
@@HeatGeek interesting… would have to think about servicing access but could be an option. You guys ever put one on a flat roof on top of a loft conversion? Easier to get access there with a sky light…
I had to go to planning as my heat pump was less than 10m from my neighbours bedroom window and 1db over the noise limit (a proper noise test sorted it) how is it that this passed with only 5m to adjoining neighbours?
Interesting, the roof isn't a suitable position for an R290 heat pump so what is it likely to be and which F gas will allow you to get those higher flow temps.
Having been to Octopus and Heat geek we have now given up. Heat geek quote was £16k for a small 3 bed terrace. Their proposal included 2 radiators per room and heat pump attached to neighbours wall. While Octopus required a planning appication. Just completely impractical. The example in this video is misleading, I very much doubt there are many terrace houses where you could mount a heat pump on the rear wall and be 5 metres from the nearest neighbours living/bedroom. Plus I find it very convenient that the radiators had been sized correctly for a low heat system so no upgrades were needed.
You're correct, it's highly unlikely in the majority of cases to get a heat pump in terraced housing without planning permission. It's one of the reasons the conservatives pre election were trying to ease the restrictions on heat pump installations - which seems to have since stalled in parliament. As for the design, conventional boilers were designed on a tighter delta T so the pipework and radiators were more in line with what would be required for heat pumps. Condensing boilers were designed with a higher delta T so the radiators could be smaller as could the pipework.
@@stevelong614 I’d love to hear which heat geek suggested mounting a heat pump to a neighbours wall. Please email us the full details. Actually I think you’ll find most homes are fine with no rad upgrades. More to come on this
@@HeatGeek To be clear, the proposal was to place the heat pump against the neighbours extension wall and then run the pipework along their wall to reach our house. This was their proposal for avoiding the need for planning permission. Considering the proposal for our lounge is to replace a 1200x600 radiator with two 1400x750 radiators, you'll need to forgive me for being sceptical.
First time viewer. Fascinated by your back story will have to dig further to catch up. one small niggle, 14:57 your design consultation screen grab is tiny on the youtube screen. must occupy 1/3 of actual screen area. could have easily zoomed in for a larger image to be shown esp on smaller displays phones etc. anyhoo. keep up the good work. 👍
On a 3.5m wide plot so 1m from boundary rule a realy big stumbling block. Bit disappointed that ypu had the convinent roof as was hoping to see clever was round this reg and noise assessment stuff.
My understanding (having been corrected elsewhere) is that if the heat pump is 1m or less from the boundary you need to apply for planning permission, and 1m+ away from boundary it is permitted development. Could be worse, my house, being an end of terrace house is on a plot that is 4.9m wide - in Wales the rule is permitted development only if 3m from a boundary which would not be possible for a similar house to mine What I haven't been able to find out is what conditions would apply to get the planning permission granted - would I need noise assessment, maybe with some noise mitigation (not sure what) or even an agreement with my neighbour, who has put a heat pump on the roof which is technically more than 1m from the boundary.
Excellent. They talked the talk, i wait to see them walk the walk. Is planning permission sought? If deemed non-notifiable it would still need to comply on completion.
The Mini Store only became available earlier this year. Installing a hot water cylinder in the space available would've been tough before that? Presumably he renovated before joining HeatGeek?
1.Honestly guys, not every house have an extension to get the heat pump on top of the extension and also 5m each side of the heat pump. 2. I bought a semi detached 3 bed house, have had a survey done by octopus and the only place we could have the heat pump was 9m away from the house, 1m away from the boundary ,nothing within 50 cm around the heat pump and nothing in front of the heat pump within 1m . Basically in the middle of the deck. AND can't be installed on the deck !!! So we have to destroy the deck to get a pump?and pay someone to dig around 70cm channel for the pipes , around 9m long?! and to get the cylinder in the loft, the pipe work from the heat pump to the cylinder can't be more than 21 or 23 m (can't remember for sure). All this are a NO NO for us. Forgot to mention, we installed solar panels before thinking about a heat pump(4.35 kwh array, 3.6 kwh inverter , 10.8 kw batteries. So now a heat pump would make sense. We wanted all this because we want to get rid of the gas boiler, change the cooker to an electric one(so no more gas in the house) and we could move the american style fridge freezer in that corner. Still waiting for a solution.
hey. check out KERS MEV ASHP Hot water cylinder. it will work better for what you are trying to do. I see they are also doing option with coils so maybe you could even plug heating from it. Not sure if they have ever done it this way before, but you can also include on the flow pipework Heater Sadia Amptec electric heater to top it up to replace heating circuit or just go with electric heating... . you are welcome :). let me know if you went for it.
@@mihairachita174 the solution I've told you does not have condenser outside and it's a heat pump but uses extract vent, compressor is within the cylinder, so there is nothing externally. I've specified it a few new resi schemes.
Lucky there's an extension flat roof to site the heat pump on. My house is far harder, also a 1910s terrace, no extension, nowhere good to place in the garden, hard to site a hot water tank. In conservation area. I like the video concept but I'd like to see you do an even harder one.
Hope the rooflights don't open or have ventilators built in as ASHP siting won't comply with Valliant's guidance and strictly speaking mounting between the windows is a bit moody when the 'no openings' exclusion zone is applied! 😏 And whilst the majority of UK housing stock maybe terraced, most is a lot narrower than that example and without a rear extension poses a massive problem for siting ASHP units - both to boundaries and noise issues to neighbouring windows! PS - I really wanted a HP but ran into the problems above so - no chance!
I think apartments are harder than terraced houses because you still have the same lack of space for a cylinder, but greater problems with noise and the space to locate the outdoor unit.
If he's the Co founder and CEO of heatgeek a) Why is he consulting the builders plumbers about heat pumps? b) Whid did he find heatgeek whilst searching on RUclips? Sorry just my cynical side!
It is a bit puzzling, you’d think that they might have held back to get some Heat Geek input before finishing the property but then again it makes for an interesting case study 🤔
Yeah a little confusing perhaps. As said above, Aadil became the CEO of Heat Geek AFTER trying and failing to get a heat pump via the "normal" route, reaching out to Adam and teaming up together to help every homeowner to get a heat pump easily! Hope that clarifies.
I didn’t have most of these problems but our heat loss was quite high and the heat pump would have had to be so large (double fan) it would have covered half of the kitchen window. It just didn’t seem sensible. Roof unfortunately wasn’t an option.
Given washing machines and diswashers heat their own water and you can get showers that are electrically powered, the simple addition of a similar, electrically powered water heater for the kitchen means a hot water cylinder isn't required. Why bother?
Constructive question.... how keen are the manufacturers service engineers about getting onto a roof for servicing and repairs ? Is that or could that be a problem ? Thank you
@@Robert-cu9bm.. Adam (Heat Geek) fitted a heat pump on the roof of his house. I cannot remember him saying this was a problem. Perhaps bolting to the wall a better option ?
@@johumm455 Good point I hadn't considered, except if the heat pump failed in the middle of an icy,wet, snowy day would this present an issue for the repairing manufacturers engineer for access/safety requirements ?
Lets hope an R290 heat pump doesn't get fitted otherwise its against regulations, but as normal that wont apply to a top tier heat geek install and probably why most people said it cant be done 😂
I've often wondered, you seem to really be pushing the heat pump to their limit in situations like this. No doubt it will work, but does it not have an impact on how long the unit will last? If it does then it doesn't mater if that you save a little every month or get a higher SCOP if the TCO ends up higher. Don't get me wrong, a heat pump is the way to go, but I worry when it comes to design if your goal is SCOP you miss the bigger picture and sacrifice reliability and longevity, which may offer more in savings then a potentially insignificant improvement in SCOP.
Maintaining existing microbore heating pipework AND use 45 deg C flow temp and frequently starve heating circuit for the domestic hot water tank? Does not sound like a recipe for a comfortable house in the winter.
I can't see the hot water needing to run that often or for that long though, with the Store size, except during showers or heavy hand dishwashing? The pump matches the heat loss with the given emitters at that temp (with some hand-waving), so no problem there?
wait if it wasn't for the large flat roof and the neighbours bathrooms on either side giving you more than 5 metres for the mcs020 this would have failed both the 1m distance and sound?
The HP is wall mounted. Although not sure if that would be viable for service engineers? I think I've seen a video of a wall mounted unit raised quite a bit of the ground.
@@affieuk wall mounted brings its own issues when around windows or doors as the gas is heavier than the air, there are manufacturers restrictions on placements near openings. In a terraced house without a flat roof extraction it seems almost impossible to figure where you could put it. As someone who has been trying for over 3 years to get a heat pump installed even with multiple heat geeks I can say the whole process is extremely frustrating and I understand why the take up of them has been so woeful the red tape, rules and costs seem deliberately set up to stop them being installed.
Have you got room for a hot water tank? Water on direct immersion and ATA. May not be as cheap to run, but depends on your motivations. Some of us don't want to burn gas even if it is "cheap".
@@cad4246 We can find room for a hot water tank its difficult as we currently have a combi boiler but are considering a sunamp heat battery (due to the space saving) or maybe mixergy tank as we have solar and battery it makes sense to move to only electric of we can. We did look into ac units for air to air it highlights another issue with the air to water heat pumps, the majority of the suppliers do both but ac units are significantly cheaper even needing new heat emitters and without a grant, the one problem with the ac units was the shape and size of these emitters finding locations for them isn't the easiest.
I'll be forced to get a new gas combi. I wanted to get a heat pump and live in a 1930's semi-detached house, but can't because I live on a hill and the back of my house has a 1.8m tall balcony that is 1.35m deep with steps down right the centre from the edge of the balcony and the wall space where the heat pump would go would be there, so not 2m unobstructed clearance, despite steps being open. Anywhere else requires planning permission and long pipe runs. Such a pain.
I can't help but feel that something like a communally shared ground source heat pump will be one of the only solutions to get off fossil fuels for most normal terraced housed. That would be a major challenge.
@@HeatGeek Yeah, thinking on it further, you'd also never get the drilling rig in the back yard of a terraced house. Maybe someone needs to develop large roof vents that funnel air through an ASHP sited in the loft. They'd have to be huge to handle the air volumes. That'd also need changes to regulation as you can't have R290 inside the house (even though a gas heater and gas hobs are apparently completely fine)
Literally about to move house in London, this is the data that I need. Second thought... Aren't all of the heat geeks over worked and over booked? Is there a point where further promotion just makes your installers pressured and sad?
We have a huge waiting list of Heat Geek trained and verified installers. We take great pains to make sure folks have sufficient work through the platform, but not too much to be overwhelmed! Our installers' business and mental happiness is incredibly important to us. Please reach out to us on upgrades@heatgeek.com if you need any further info, but we can definitely connect you with a great installer in London
Underfloor heating and a flow temp of 45-50C? Better not be Engineered Wood Flooring then. I realise flow temp and emitter temps are different, but not by 20C. In other videos 35C is given as more efficient.
My question would be why. For a start plumbing and electrical are done when the place is gutted. Not after full restoration. Secondly is the cost. The house shouts money, and you have heat geeks on tap. Money can buy a solution to most things. But for the average punter, not so easy. Then you have a flat roof extension to sit a big ugly box on. I had a similar style house in a terrace for many years. It wouldn't have complied there. And my biggest issue with heat pumps is constant running and constant temperature. I like to turn on on off with a timer. And I like rooms all different temperatures. Heat pumps work. With enough money that could be almost anywhere. Would I want one. No.
Presumably with modern controllers offering different temps at different times, and limiting flow rates you could do what you want with a heat pump? Though it might be cheaper with a more consistent heat?
I'd assume that the timing is to reflect your typical household that isn't also doing considerable internal renovations, i.e. what it would be like if you're turning up at any normal house - most folk aren't gutting their house all that often.
@@michaelwinkley2302 Most people aren't. But this bloke did. I'm a builder, and for the sake of all the trades make your mind up at the right time. Retro fit is just an unnecessary pain for all concerned.
Got a 5 bed 1920 terrace, really want a heat pump, octopus surveyor came said too much of heat loss, so we can’t install. asked British Gas, said no entrances in the backyard, heat pump not allowed to go through front door.
@@metalhead2550 Formally announced it, or Greg Jackson just happened to mention it at the Energy Tech Summit? I'm pretty sure it's not ready yet, and he said sometime early next year. Anyway, it's good news for me as I'm more likely to need the 10.
I don't think this is a representative house at all. Totally renovated back to brick so probably has insulation on all the inside of the exterior walls. Underfloor heating which is probably as expensive as the heat pump. I want heat pumps to work I really do. But when your at a situation where the temperature it works at means it's on CONSTANTLY Vs intermittent from higher temp gas boiler + electricity price difference it's wildly more expensive at the moment
You misunderstand stable state heating. It's more comfortable (and typically more efficient) with a (condensing) gas boiler to run low and slow vs intermittent high temps. Stable State heating also allows you to have a lower thermostat temperature as the temperature is kept constant, whereas with intermittent you're usually setting it higher to cater for the fluctuation in the room temperature between the heating cycles. Stable State heating with a heat pump is where the efficiency really ramps up.
For us; Octopus quote based on house visit and assessment was £500 on top of BUS for Daikin. Heat Geek quote £6500 on top of BUS for same job. Rip off!!!
Different things - i suspect the Octopus job was based on 50-55c flow temp whereas heatgeek will be much lower - but this means probable radiator/pipework changes (hence more cost). However, the heatgeek one will have significantly lower running costs. Capex vs Opex.
Give him his due, Adam is trying! He has found a niche, that is Heat Pumps. Like the gold miners of old, the people who made the most money were the ones selling picks, shovels and wheel barrows!😄
Hi Guys. I sent this comment to John Cantor re RUclips video ref (ruclips.net/video/0oszaqP0TI4/видео.html) What do you think? SUGGESTION: Use analogue temp "sensors" instead of hysteresis/Differential Thermostats (i.e. Variable instead of On/Off) and the same with the output control signal for the heat pump (and secondary circuit circulation pumps, so there is never a "closed circuit" situation, i.e. always flow round all secondary circuit, i.e.anti-stratification kind of thing, so temps are stable and no sudden shocks to the system, like when a cold circuit suddenly inject a cold slug of water into the primary circuit.....). Closed loop P+I control would prevent "saw tooth" curves on the graphs? Also wondering about the number of starts per hour for the compressor motor, as most motors don't like more than 10/hr. Would be interested to hear your view. Thanks.
On the subject of old properties. My old, 1910, solid brick, terraced, country cottage in Wales has recently had a complete retrofit, including internal wall and loft insulation, all pipework and radiators replaced, Ecodan ASHP and sola panels installed. All working perfectly well.
You lot in Wales have been really lucky over the past few years. Government put you guys on the top of the list for the Eco4 Grant, the grant that completely updates old homes with old oil boilers (the majority of homes in Wales) with all the things you mentioned. All my mum's aunts and relatives in Wales have solar and ASHP with insulation now. Two of them had it shut down within the first few weeks from faults, apparently they were installed and just left on 'default mode', and another one ended up costing twice as much as her old oil heating/HW bills cost her, but they eventually had them sorted out.
We're awaiting our Eco4 installation to go through now in England. Our house was built in 1808... extended in the 60s, but almost zero loft insulation and zero wall insulation. Been waiting for planning permission to be granted for the heat pump for almost a whole year now. In Wales you guys got it so quickly :(
For how much...
I don't think you can describe that house as average but it is obviously probably one of the most difficult to fit a heat pump in. I'm looking forward to seeing further videos on progress.
THey don't say average, they say most common. Remember maths class Mode vs Medium 😀
Looking forward to seeing how it goes in
2:15 ...and also, this whole house has been renovated top to bottom, so we can't open the walls.
How tf does one go about renovating the whole house and not doing first things first, such as real actual plumbing!!
Mindblowing, that.
Because people focus on making everything look pretty over all else.
And why not insulate the walls while he was renovating?? Not the best advert for HeatGeek when the CEO didn't consult Adam or one of his many trained up engineers for advice and get the place insulated as part of the renovation work. Even if he is doesn't understand heat pumps, surely he understands heat loss and the value of insulation whatever heating system you use. I'm just a bit bemused by the whole video.
@@JohnThomas-ey1hx He's new to heat geek so probably did the renovation before joining
@@Sam-mb1yk
He literally says it in the video....I watched your videos and then called others.
@@JohnThomas-ey1hx Probably a little confusing... Aadil became CEO AFTER... It started with renovating his home (and doing a bunch of fabric upgrades, by the way!) but failing to get a Heat Pump in place. He reached out to Adam using this personal experience as fuel to quit his job and team up with Adam. Only then did he become CEO, learning and exploring what the real solution was and is now working with Adam to scale this to ensure no-one else ends up in the same position! Hope that clarifies!
I've had a heat pump in my 1850 terrace house for over two years and it's working perfectly, and costs less to run than my old gas boiler
Interesting stuff, look forward to seeing the installation and the end result when it's all up and running!
Really interesting video (as I have a house with similar issues). But …. I thought there were minimum clearance distances between a heat pump and an opening window due to the (slight) risks from the refrigerant leaking?
My Edwardian mid terrace house had an HP install that performs the best of any system the design company has ever seen, I average 3.6cop but sometimes up to 5.5. No wall insulation, loft insulation and double glazing only. It’s possible just don’t over size your pump. Surveys assume cold houses either side but with neighbours both party walls have no losses
12:18 best part of the whole video by far. "Money shot. Booty" 😂😂😂
@@triplebelly2008 100%
what software are you guys using for heat per room estimates? That looks awesome, would love to calculate my home with this.
I second this! I've asked installers for proposals and they tend to come up with proposals without taking such detailed notes and making calculations. Obviously I'm not going for that...
No idea what HG use but heatpunk can be free and is amazing once you learn it..
It's their own software, not publicly available... yet (maybe in the future?)
I do know though that they have an integration with Polycam, which is what they use for all the dimensions / room scanning. So you could probably align that with Heat Punk and get a close estimate. But its obviously not as slick as having it all in one, and likely missing the calculations / knowledge that Heat Geek have obtained over the years
I don’t think you mentioned flow rate. Do you have to make an educated guess when the pipe work isn’t visible or is there a way of testing it?
@@mattundercoat see our video on pipe sizing. This pipe work is ample
Why not go with a heat pump mini-split a/c system? Get the benefit of both heating and cooling. Unit goes on the roof in the same spot and you only need power. No need to play with water or have radiators in the way of your furniture.
You would need indoor units in several rooms. You could do a multi split unit but then you would need to route coolant lines everywhere.
The video is about a heat pump for space heat and dhw dude. Not a AC multi system. Totally different things
@chrismorton5460 sorry but that's just a non answer to a valid question. To correctly evaluate how good their solution would be you need to be able to evaluate the alternatives.
Because there would be no taxpayer subsidy.
@@Felix-st2ue because theres literally no pathways to install all of what you're talking about. How are you going to A) install the internal units B) install the refridgerant lines and C) heat your hot water.
Its not a non-answer, its 100% valid.
Looking forward to the install.
Nothing is impossible, its about how much time and effort the installer wants to put in and also how much the client is willing to spend. Be interesting to see what a real quote (not a friends rates one) would be compared to an 'easy' fit.
Also I'm assuming that the client has done all the other bits, such as insulating everywhere, etc.
I feel the cost of all of that on top of the heat pump install is much higher than the average or median UK terraced house owner (it might just be affordably possible for Londoners).
No mention of electric power consumption and if upgrades are required for consumer unit, or how on earth power is getting to the heat pump.
To have undertaken a remodel like this and not done badic upgrades in preparation is mind blowing.
Fantastic modern central London home! Very nice
How do you go about the party walls? What temperature do you base the neighbors house at? Cibse want 10c but are you a little more realistic?
Well done guys! Had one of your trained engineers install our HP near Bristol…it’s amazing! Simply!
Great to hear! Thanks for the feedback!
This channel should be called Heat Pump Geek
Yo, distance to the windows and that, r290? I'd like to hear specifics in the follow up. Some real world clarification, re a 5m wide property.
I can’t remember whether I’ve asked this before. Vaillant & a couple of other OEMs have integrations to heat batteries like Sunamp. These have a better & more compact form factor than cylinders. In addition they are low loss. Would a Heat Geek consider one of those in place of a mini store?
We've done a fair bit of research into this for our house and the issue is that most heat batteries need higher flow temperatures to actually handle the phase change, so you lose out on efficiency. The MiniStore is a clever bit of kit because it's designed to work better at the flow temps you're already expecting for a wet heatpump system.
@@JamesScholesUK the latest refrigerant now caters for the higher temperature so heat batteries are an option and also qualify for the grant. My research led me down the heat battery route, however in the end a custom made tank to fit in the small space i have was cheaper and requires lower flow temp. Personal choice. Believe the mini store is actually about the same size as a heat bat. You may need the biggest heat bat to meet your needs, the mini store effectively acts as a combi boiler producing continuous hot water whereas the heat battery doesn't (or has to us a heating element to maintain).
@@chrischild3667 Yeah, it's horses for courses absolutely. We're probably looking at A2A mini-split for the house (large south facing windows so it gets hot in summer) so either an emitter to a ministore or a Givenergy tank with integrated HP exchanger in the loft. The advantage of the Givenergy is you can have a full-sized cylinder but opt to not put the HP on top as it's modular
@@JamesScholesUK that's a great plan. And there's definitely something to be said about having more gadgets 😄
@@JamesScholesUK Disclosure here- I’m just an interested consumer. I believe Sunamp has a phase change mix now in their Thermino range that changes state at 58 degrees centigrade. This is lower than the temperature required, at least periodically, in cylinders to prevent Legionella. They also don’t need a Legionella cycle. If you had a flow temperature of 45 or 50 for the heating then the delta is less for the hot water cycle. It would be interesting to see if this improves HW SCOP & therefore overall combined efficiency.
Does anyone know if placing a heat pump on the roof causes issues with vibration or noise? We're considering something similar, as our garden is very small. We're planning to install it on a flat roof as part of a side return extension.
Depends on the size of unit. This wont
Good to know a heat pump isn't a total waste in a old terraced like mine, I think I'd probably be more inclined to invest in solar first as a fairly heavy electricity user but I suppose that only makes a heap pump make even more sense.
I'd definitely be sticking a roof terrace on that extension though!
A heat pump, even on cold winter days, should take 2kW of solar energy and convert it into nearly 8kW of heat for your hot water, so it's much more efficient that a Solar diverter that dumps the solar energy into an immersion heater.
Solar will have a better ROI, but a heat pump will save more carbon - so it depends on your goals which you do first.
Solar offers payback against whatever fuel you have, so I'd treat that separately from the heat pump.
Fantastic video guys!
Funny thing is that I used your website earlier today after watching another one of your videos. Got quoted nearly £15k for an install. Not your fault, the equipment is not cheap and well trained labour isn't either but even with the government grant I think I'll be sticking with gas for the foreseeable future.
Yeah no way that will ever make sense.
Other installers are available!
There are enough good cheaper installers problem is if they are not MCS you can't get the Grant. MCS is the thing holding Heat Pumps back as some of the installers see it as a lisence to charge a fortune and believe me I have seen some shocking installs by so called MCS registered engineers and have had to re do o e of them
Did you take a look at the financing option? If up-front cost is not doable, many customers can see a business case if they pay monthly - the energy bill savings can offset the cost of the install...
@@HeatGeek I think their point is not about upfront cost but rather the maths of the ROI.
Example: £10k ASHP vs £3k gas boiler would need to save you £7k over 10 years (let's assume that lifespan). When the quote expects to save £100 per year in energy costs it isn't even nearly viable as you're still £6k out of pocket by the end of the 10 years. The finance only exacerbates that by adding interest on top of that financial loss.
Happy for you guys to give my 1865 Victorian Mid-Terrace House in Scotland a go, happy to pay for the services but I don't think its possible. I have been racking my brain for months and siting and plumbing seems the biggest problems that I cant figure out.
What part of Scotland are you in? We’re Edinburgh based and may be able to look at this for you.
A Conservation area in Angus :P Just to make it more difficult.
@@TransmissionSignal easy. Go to upgrades.heatgeek.com and we’ll send someone out
Just stick with the existing boiler and save all that complicated new equipment having to be manufactured, imported and installed, plus, of course, avoiding the scrapping of a perfectly serviceable boiler and other kit.
The embodied emissions of a heat pump are typically less than one year of gas-burning, so the embodied energy in new equipment is a very poor argument for not making the switch.
sticking with the boiler means you will still have an ongoing large carbon footprint from heating and DHW. You'll have to decarbonise eventually. In general the sooner the better - it's one of the most effective changes many people can make.
@@xxwookey Don't forget the embedded energy in the equipment being scrapped, the embedded energy in having to construct new energy transmission infrastructure, and that the electricity to run the heat pump has in large part to be generated from fossil fuels. Additionally, even if this country could magically stop using any fossil fuels, the effect on the global climate would be somewhere between zero and too small to be measurable.
@@xxwookey Of course, there's also the embodied energy in the equipment being scrapped. Then there's the embedded energy needed to for the new electricity infrastructure required for such installations, not to forget that a large part of the electrical energy generated comes from fossil fuels, and this will be the case for many years ahead. At the time of writing (1800hrs on the 3rd Nov.) wind is contributing 4% of electricity generation, and solar 0%.
@@davidscott3292 None of that makes it better to stay on gas. Obviously how quickly you will get ahead depends on where you live. New wind turbines pay back their embodied energy in less than 6 months. Solar a year or so. Remaining fossil fraction depends where you are but is declining everywhere (under 50% in the UK). So long as your local grid intensity is under 500 gCO2e/kWh then your new install will be better than sticking with gas. The UK is at 160 now. I don't know where you are.
@@davidscott3292 Embodied energy in equipment to be scrapped has already been spent. Electrical grid has more than sufficient capacity, and is rapidly getting cleaner (currently averaging 35-50% renewables depending on the day, iirc, and increasing every year - although yes there will be periods of little renewable generation, which is typically covered by batteries instead - which don't show on those 'generation' stats)
Why renovate without replacing pipework or placing insulation?
People don't want to pay for it.
There was quite a bit of insulation put in during the insulation - pre part L, but insulated floors, a bit on the walls and replacement windows.
Lovely house 👍🏻
No, the Ultimate is a pre 1919 Detached house...Now that's a challenge for you.
I assume detached is easier in terms of location of the pump etc., but more difficult in terms of heat loss
I had a heat pump put in on my 1881 detached house, 270sqm. COP of 5.6 and saved us £1500 in a year - working perfectly!
@@pumpkinhead456what was your overall heat loss, size/brand of heat pump? My house is a similar age and exactly the same size strangely enough at 270m2. Did you replace a gas or oil fired boiler? Your feedback would be really useful
I'm Interested to see the total cost including floor, wall insulation plus the heat pump etc. in a typical 3 bed detached pre 1919.
(Although many brick built houses even up to late 1920's were still solid wall.
@@lordmord8378 Not really, insulating a detached house is MUCH MUCH easier. But even more so, you can easily fit an insane 11KW (3 phase) before COP heat pump in those cases.
I watched a lot of your videos a year or so ago when I moved house (1930s semi, solid wall). Bit confused/disappointed in myself as much as anything, as I believed my house would need significant upgrades in order to be heat pump ready - eg new windows, wall insulation, loft insulation. But this house is similar, solid wall, I presume no internal wall insulation fitted (on old parts). I imagine the glazing will be better insulation (although mine aren't that old, 18 years, double glazed). I guess ultimately it doesn't matter as it was our first house and didn't have the extra cash to spend, but it makes me wonder how far away we really were/are from a heat pump setup.
Probably can be done straightaway, it's (almost) all about the radiator sizing rather than insulation that determines efficiency. If you can upgrade loft insulation to 300mm, then do so anyway, but otherwise with a good heating engineer see what the lowest flow temperature it can be designed for without the radiators being stupid sized - though you'll probably be surprised in a good way!
14:13 what’s the software they are using?
HeatGeek own I think?
This is the Heat Geek Upgrades platform. Our trained and verified installers get access to it as part of joining the Heat Geek network. It speeds up designs, reduces admin overhead and helps them to deliver the highest efficiency installs in the industry!
Good stuff 👍
Hey Adam, I do hope Aadil was collecting the hot shower water below you for washing up, around 11.30mins in? As I was starting to twitch at the amount of wasted water. 🤪😉
I see the Blackbird P80 heatpump of WeHeat specifically designed for flat roofs and these type of situations being installed in mainland Europe. Do these also exist in the UK?
Great to see this video, yes there will be more difficult ones without the rear extensions but plenty of terraces houses do have or are planning rear extensions. Plus the planning restrictions are being consulted on and could be eased, the units are getting quieter and the economics could change as solutions are standardised and if the price of electricity falls relative to gas that would be a game changer. But agree that A2A options should be investigated as a realistic alternative and A2W is artificially supported by the subsidy, if the subsidy was applied fairly to both technologies, A2A would be a more economic solution for many homes with the benefit of cooling which is going to be increasingly important in the next few generations.
Great video. This gives me hope. Had two big HP installers around (a Swedish company and 8 limbed mollusc) who said they would not install on our semi detached. Does the HP have to be 1 metre from a window, and do we have to have a 200l tank for 4 people (45l pp)? Or are these just recommendations? Both factors have been supposed showstoppers for us, despite us being willing to compromise. Frustrating.
My first thought would be the loft for the HW cylinder but I imagine that that space is now bedroom(s)\ensuite\home office.
Open window question. Im having a heatpump next year as part of my extension and its going near/below a window and I've been told to get a non opening window as they shouldn't be installed near windows. The 1m around boundary is really tuff to get around.
There is a specific R290 gas "exclusion zone" that needs to be complied with as it was in this instance. We didn't shoot that part of the video but provide tools for Wes to ensure he complies with that bit too!
I would like to hear more about flow rates. Microbore was mentioned…
High Adam,
Love your stuff and it inspired me when designing and installing my own Vaillant Aerotherm+ 7kw. sytem.
One question can you add your weather compensation curve setting to your Emoncms page on the open heat pump site? I see it's at the default of 0. I'm slowly tweaking mine down from 0.5 and frequently compare my compressor cycling rate with yours. Would like to know what your's is set to if it's not a secret.
I have the same pump in a terrace and have 0.7 and 16degree minT
I'd assume there is a rather large difference between being physically able to install a heat pump and it being a cost effective choice for a particular property. You could install a heat pump in a Roman fort, but that does not mean it's going to heat it efficiently.
Would be nice to see a video using ATA rather than always seeing ATW Would also be nice see a comparison not only installing cost but running cost .
Can't do hot water from what I understand but does give you heating and cooling.
ATA is just an Aircon.
I think all heat pumps should be reverse cycle so you can chill the home in summer.
@@Robert-cu9bm I am aware of what ATA is and isn’t capable of , some people just want ATA and they don’t need hot water because they have water heaters that give instant hot water on demand rather than heating up a tank of water which they don’t need , to get a full picture of heat pumps capabilities it should cover all aspects, you don’t have a garage full of many models of cars yet you only show customers one model .
This channel is about converting as many houses in the UK to efficient heating. A vast majority of houses have wet central heating.
@@sn0tkore I have wet central heating with a gas boiler , yet I can’t understand why the ATA system is not being incorporated in the overall criteria of the heat pump availability , personally looking at the replacement of my boiler and seeing what would benefit oneself the ATA system seems to be a better system for my needs , if I was trying to change the mindset and to give the public an alternative to gas but it is only covering a tiny bit of the overall solution, talking with friends around the world can’t believe we have a heat pump to heat cold water and make it warm to then give heat for the home when you can get instant heat with ATA which cost less to run .
@@Robert-cu9bm ATA is not just aircon, it provides heating as well, the only thing it won't do is hot water, but there are many discreet solutions for that. In order for A2W to provide cooling in Summer, it has to have fan coil radiators, these would not be practical in this particular installation.
What about the microbore that was mentioned? I have a modernish house thats got microbore , can a heat pump be used without changing the pipework?
Possibly yes/no !... It is dependent on heat loss of the rooms and whether the existing pipe size (what ever size pipe it is) will allow sufficient flow to fulfill that requirement. After that flow temperatures can be considered etc etc. It all starts with a heat loss/installation survey. It is a complex area especially in a retrofit installation that requires experience and time. I hope this helps.
is your heat loss survey app open for home owners to use?
Typical Australian houses of that era have all the same problems of the English ones, plus ten foot ceilings in every room! I am doubtful about ever being able to convert my Victorian in Melbourne to an ASHP system. I tried turning my condensing boiler down to 60C flow temps for a bit last winter, and there was no way it would be able to keep the house warm enough on cold days. And that's with new R6 insulation throughout the roof. I was really disappointed, because I had hoped it would work out and give me a chance of moving to an ASHP in the future. For now it doesn't look feasible, at least without potentially doubling the size of all the rads. I think a more likely path in my case will be mini-splits for the remaining three rooms that don't already have them. For Melbourne, you can understand that the bonus of being able to cool as well as heat will be worth it. I just wish I had thought of this and done my research before I spent $10k to modernize the hydronic system after I bought the house.
Try mixing air with some ceiling fans. It is percievabely warmer up there than where you are sat (1-2 meter difference depending if you like your feet or torso warmer, due to convection and stratification temperature difference can be a couple C). I can personaly feel the difference between north and south side of the house on the same level where thermometers show 0.5-1C difference.
@@RESPIRAATORS yeah this is a really good point. I don't know how feasible that will be in my lath and plaster ceilings with plaster ceiling roses. But it could be done.
@@literatesavant fan coils are far more suitable. If you can get to the piping it could be insulated and also provide cooling (but A2A makes more sense)
Absolutely, flippin amazing!!
I was on the edge of my seat thinking “how on earth are they going to make this work”!!!
Talking about impossible, how about my middle-terrace maisonette with no land? Where does the external unit go?
on the roof or on the wall in a PVT system ?
@@johumm455 That's interesting, never heard of one of those before. Are they on the market, or at the research stage?
Research stage?😂
He talks about terraced houses where ground floor and garden is own by someone with it's own door, and first floor is basically a flat with it's own door.
This houses are not new.
@@mihairachita174 No I was asking about 'PVT' heat pump systems, which I've never heard of before, i.e., are they on the market or are they at the research stage (after all, why would I think that the 1960s maisonette that I said I'm living in would be at the research stage)?
@@WyndStryke Nibe PVT 40 is one such one. It's basically a ground source heat pump in the building, but instead of the collector being in the ground it's on some PVT panels. There is an expansion on that system (which I believe has a test installation in Germany - so very much research stage) where there's both a ground loop and PVT array, and the system has the potential to use the PVT in daytime, and ground loop overnight. The ground loop can also provide some heat to the PVT collector, so it melts snow off the array. And solar in summer can warm up the ground loop to provide better efficiency in winter. Really cool, whether that whole thing comes to market or not remains to be seen.
Notice that the owner is obviously caked because that probably helps 😂
With 45-50C flow temperatures standard radiators will have poor convection. UFH not a problem with those temps but in the rooms with radiators, you may have sufficient radiator output but how do you circulate that heat around the room without it stagnating near the wall on which the rad is mounted?
It doesn't have poor convection, I'm currently running at 37c flow temperature and my rooms are very warm (21c) all over. There is also sofas in front of the radiators. It might not convect as quick as 70c flow but it does convect but runs much longer and you get less temperature gradient in the room making it much more comfortable. Not only that, the walls act like thermal batteries as they're heated all day at lower temperatures, a bit like walking past a wall on an evening on a sunny day and you can feel it.
If it's filled with R290, the manufacturers spec 1 metre from any opening. Those upstairs windows look closer than 1 metre.
Can't find the link to Heat Geeks, Scotland?
Want to try in a semi in a conservation area with a garden which rises about 4ft higher than the house?
Octopus have just tried and failed to find a HP solution for my similar (1920s built, combi boiler, tricky to site HP) home. The water cyclinder was the main problem as there is no where sensible it can go without a structural survey of my loft. Your mini store would solve several of the challenges. Are you commmercially installing them now?
We’ve been installing them for a few months now. We would almost certainly have a solution for you.
I’m intrigued by that location for the heat pump. What are the rules? 5m was mentioned? Also any idea what sort of strength of support is needed (I have a sloped roof so would have to build something to make it work?
It will be wall mounted on a bracket
@@Liam_Hirst interesting. The challenge for me would be how does the engineer service it… I don’t have the easy access flat roof. If I could make it work it’s a game changer mind as I have no where to put the outside unit really.
@@jamesdaw131 yes you would need access for servicing
We’ve fitted a few on brackets but never anything out of reach yet
@@Liam_Hirst This is right! chemical fixtures into the brick wall.
@@HeatGeek interesting… would have to think about servicing access but could be an option. You guys ever put one on a flat roof on top of a loft conversion? Easier to get access there with a sky light…
I had to go to planning as my heat pump was less than 10m from my neighbours bedroom window and 1db over the noise limit (a proper noise test sorted it) how is it that this passed with only 5m to adjoining neighbours?
4:11 what's the link for this?
EDIT: ah, the link to the right of "GET A HEAT PUMP FROM THE BEST INSTALLERS"
Now do it for one of those houses that has been split into two flats.
Interesting, the roof isn't a suitable position for an R290 heat pump so what is it likely to be and which F gas will allow you to get those higher flow temps.
@@effervescence5664 only under current regs/heat pump design ;)
The current siting restrictions for an R290 device are not at all thought out or based on risk/probability analysis. They will be revised.
Having been to Octopus and Heat geek we have now given up.
Heat geek quote was £16k for a small 3 bed terrace. Their proposal included 2 radiators per room and heat pump attached to neighbours wall.
While Octopus required a planning appication.
Just completely impractical.
The example in this video is misleading, I very much doubt there are many terrace houses where you could mount a heat pump on the rear wall and be 5 metres from the nearest neighbours living/bedroom. Plus I find it very convenient that the radiators had been sized correctly for a low heat system so no upgrades were needed.
Do you realise that modern combination boilers are designed to run like that?
You're correct, it's highly unlikely in the majority of cases to get a heat pump in terraced housing without planning permission. It's one of the reasons the conservatives pre election were trying to ease the restrictions on heat pump installations - which seems to have since stalled in parliament.
As for the design, conventional boilers were designed on a tighter delta T so the pipework and radiators were more in line with what would be required for heat pumps. Condensing boilers were designed with a higher delta T so the radiators could be smaller as could the pipework.
@@stevelong614 I’d love to hear which heat geek suggested mounting a heat pump to a neighbours wall. Please email us the full details.
Actually I think you’ll find most homes are fine with no rad upgrades. More to come on this
@@HeatGeek To be clear, the proposal was to place the heat pump against the neighbours extension wall and then run the pipework along their wall to reach our house. This was their proposal for avoiding the need for planning permission.
Considering the proposal for our lounge is to replace a 1200x600 radiator with two 1400x750 radiators, you'll need to forgive me for being sceptical.
@@chriswinter7787 what does that mean?
I do not have a combination boiler .
First time viewer. Fascinated by your back story will have to dig further to catch up. one small niggle, 14:57 your design consultation screen grab is tiny on the youtube screen. must occupy 1/3 of actual screen area. could have easily zoomed in for a larger image to be shown esp on smaller displays phones etc. anyhoo. keep up the good work. 👍
Any update on the next video? 😁 can’t wait to see it
On a 3.5m wide plot so 1m from boundary rule a realy big stumbling block. Bit disappointed that ypu had the convinent roof as was hoping to see clever was round this reg and noise assessment stuff.
My understanding (having been corrected elsewhere) is that if the heat pump is 1m or less from the boundary you need to apply for planning permission, and 1m+ away from boundary it is permitted development. Could be worse, my house, being an end of terrace house is on a plot that is 4.9m wide - in Wales the rule is permitted development only if 3m from a boundary which would not be possible for a similar house to mine
What I haven't been able to find out is what conditions would apply to get the planning permission granted - would I need noise assessment, maybe with some noise mitigation (not sure what) or even an agreement with my neighbour, who has put a heat pump on the roof which is technically more than 1m from the boundary.
Well as of today the 1m from boundary rule has been scrapped, so should no longer be a problem.
Giant glass wall versus heat in a cold climate..... I'll take giant glass wall!
Excellent. They talked the talk, i wait to see them walk the walk. Is planning permission sought? If deemed non-notifiable it would still need to comply on completion.
i must have misplaced my outdoor kitchen, didn't realize they were so common
Hang on. He is the heat geek ceo and didn’t know how to get a heat pump…?
The Mini Store only became available earlier this year. Installing a hot water cylinder in the space available would've been tough before that?
Presumably he renovated before joining HeatGeek?
I got the impression he tried that before he got involved in heatgeek
Aadil joined Heat Geek after renovating, failing to get a Heat Pump, then reaching out to Adam and joining forces!
1.Honestly guys, not every house have an extension to get the heat pump on top of the extension and also 5m each side of the heat pump.
2. I bought a semi detached 3 bed house, have had a survey done by octopus and the only place we could have the heat pump was 9m away from the house, 1m away from the boundary ,nothing within 50 cm around the heat pump and nothing in front of the heat pump within 1m .
Basically in the middle of the deck. AND can't be installed on the deck !!! So we have to destroy the deck to get a pump?and pay someone to dig around 70cm channel for the pipes , around 9m long?! and to get the cylinder in the loft, the pipe work from the heat pump to the cylinder can't be more than 21 or 23 m (can't remember for sure).
All this are a NO NO for us.
Forgot to mention, we installed solar panels before thinking about a heat pump(4.35 kwh array, 3.6 kwh inverter , 10.8 kw batteries. So now a heat pump would make sense.
We wanted all this because we want to get rid of the gas boiler, change the cooker to an electric one(so no more gas in the house) and we could move the american style fridge freezer in that corner.
Still waiting for a solution.
hey. check out KERS MEV ASHP Hot water cylinder. it will work better for what you are trying to do.
I see they are also doing option with coils so maybe you could even plug heating from it.
Not sure if they have ever done it this way before, but you can also include on the flow pipework Heater Sadia Amptec electric heater to top it up to replace heating circuit or just go with electric heating... .
you are welcome :). let me know if you went for it.
I guess we will need to build a new house to install heatpump
HeatGeek installers (or even others) may have different ideas for installation?
@@tEXKiKos I'm not looking for a hot water cylinder. I'm looking for a heat pump solution and place where to go.
@@mihairachita174 the solution I've told you does not have condenser outside and it's a heat pump but uses extract vent, compressor is within the cylinder, so there is nothing externally.
I've specified it a few new resi schemes.
Any chance of coming to ireland?
Just need some more engineers to sign up is all
WHERE THE HELL IS ELECTRICIAN GEEK! HG, please link up with Artisan Electrics so I can get a beautiful consumer unit with solar in Cornwall 😄
What is an electrics are the worst RUclips channel company ever
Lucky there's an extension flat roof to site the heat pump on. My house is far harder, also a 1910s terrace, no extension, nowhere good to place in the garden, hard to site a hot water tank. In conservation area. I like the video concept but I'd like to see you do an even harder one.
Hope the rooflights don't open or have ventilators built in as ASHP siting won't comply with Valliant's guidance and strictly speaking mounting between the windows is a bit moody when the 'no openings' exclusion zone is applied! 😏 And whilst the majority of UK housing stock maybe terraced, most is a lot narrower than that example and without a rear extension poses a massive problem for siting ASHP units - both to boundaries and noise issues to neighbouring windows! PS - I really wanted a HP but ran into the problems above so - no chance!
I thought an old appartment would be the impossible challenge! :)
I think apartments are harder than terraced houses because you still have the same lack of space for a cylinder, but greater problems with noise and the space to locate the outdoor unit.
Great idea for another challenge! Watch this space!
Lower heat loss in apartments, like for like. Direct electric. Maybe battery storage and octopus agile tariff.
If he's the Co founder and CEO of heatgeek
a) Why is he consulting the builders plumbers about heat pumps?
b) Whid did he find heatgeek whilst searching on RUclips?
Sorry just my cynical side!
a) He's a business/software guy, not a heating engineer. b) Heat Geek already existed, but he helped expand.
It is a bit puzzling, you’d think that they might have held back to get some Heat Geek input before finishing the property but then again it makes for an interesting case study 🤔
This whole thing makes no sense to me.
Yeah a little confusing perhaps. As said above, Aadil became the CEO of Heat Geek AFTER trying and failing to get a heat pump via the "normal" route, reaching out to Adam and teaming up together to help every homeowner to get a heat pump easily! Hope that clarifies.
I didn’t have most of these problems but our heat loss was quite high and the heat pump would have had to be so large (double fan) it would have covered half of the kitchen window. It just didn’t seem sensible. Roof unfortunately wasn’t an option.
Given washing machines and diswashers heat their own water and you can get showers that are electrically powered, the simple addition of a similar, electrically powered water heater for the kitchen means a hot water cylinder isn't required. Why bother?
The heating cylinder is about 4 x more efficient.
Can't wait for the neighbours to complain about the fan noise!
Constructive question.... how keen are the manufacturers service engineers about getting onto a roof for servicing and repairs ? Is that or could that be a problem ?
Thank you
for an aircon it is pretty common to have the outdoor unit somewhere on a roof So no probs at all
@@johumm455
You would hear it running through the house, it would vibrate the entire house every time it turns on.
@@Robert-cu9bm.. Adam (Heat Geek) fitted a heat pump on the roof of his house. I cannot remember him saying this was a problem. Perhaps bolting to the wall a better option ?
@@johumm455 Good point I hadn't considered, except if the heat pump failed in the middle of an icy,wet, snowy day would this present an issue for the repairing manufacturers engineer for access/safety requirements ?
My first thought was CEO of heating business doesn’t have any inspection hatches for his flue in void.
@@Lutonman2010 all the back panels were removable
Lets hope an R290 heat pump doesn't get fitted otherwise its against regulations, but as normal that wont apply to a top tier heat geek install and probably why most people said it cant be done 😂
Wait wait wait, he's put his Wi-Fi router in a cupboard?! Not sure I can trust a guy who puts a Wi-Fi router in a cupboard...🤣
Would be good to see the savings from a correctly sized gas boiler / storage vessel. Most combi boilers are far too powerful in heating mode.
My bet is absolutely none and that the cost is higher - 3 times more.
I've often wondered, you seem to really be pushing the heat pump to their limit in situations like this. No doubt it will work, but does it not have an impact on how long the unit will last? If it does then it doesn't mater if that you save a little every month or get a higher SCOP if the TCO ends up higher. Don't get me wrong, a heat pump is the way to go, but I worry when it comes to design if your goal is SCOP you miss the bigger picture and sacrifice reliability and longevity, which may offer more in savings then a potentially insignificant improvement in SCOP.
Maintaining existing microbore heating pipework AND use 45 deg C flow temp and frequently starve heating circuit for the domestic hot water tank? Does not sound like a recipe for a comfortable house in the winter.
I can't see the hot water needing to run that often or for that long though, with the Store size, except during showers or heavy hand dishwashing?
The pump matches the heat loss with the given emitters at that temp (with some hand-waving), so no problem there?
@@Biggest-dh1vr
Literally mentioned long showers for thoughts.
@@Robert-cu9bm He's gotta spend some time at work, surely?!
Watch this space for the followup! It's all in the maths!
wait if it wasn't for the large flat roof and the neighbours bathrooms on either side giving you more than 5 metres for the mcs020 this would have failed both the 1m distance and sound?
The HP is wall mounted. Although not sure if that would be viable for service engineers? I think I've seen a video of a wall mounted unit raised quite a bit of the ground.
@@affieuk wall mounted brings its own issues when around windows or doors as the gas is heavier than the air, there are manufacturers restrictions on placements near openings. In a terraced house without a flat roof extraction it seems almost impossible to figure where you could put it.
As someone who has been trying for over 3 years to get a heat pump installed even with multiple heat geeks I can say the whole process is extremely frustrating and I understand why the take up of them has been so woeful the red tape, rules and costs seem deliberately set up to stop them being installed.
Have you got room for a hot water tank? Water on direct immersion and ATA. May not be as cheap to run, but depends on your motivations. Some of us don't want to burn gas even if it is "cheap".
@@cad4246 We can find room for a hot water tank its difficult as we currently have a combi boiler but are considering a sunamp heat battery (due to the space saving) or maybe mixergy tank as we have solar and battery it makes sense to move to only electric of we can.
We did look into ac units for air to air it highlights another issue with the air to water heat pumps, the majority of the suppliers do both but ac units are significantly cheaper even needing new heat emitters and without a grant, the one problem with the ac units was the shape and size of these emitters finding locations for them isn't the easiest.
I was very impressed with Glyn Hudson diy conversion of victorian terrace house. See Glyn's channel.
I'll be forced to get a new gas combi. I wanted to get a heat pump and live in a 1930's semi-detached house, but can't because I live on a hill and the back of my house has a 1.8m tall balcony that is 1.35m deep with steps down right the centre from the edge of the balcony and the wall space where the heat pump would go would be there, so not 2m unobstructed clearance, despite steps being open. Anywhere else requires planning permission and long pipe runs. Such a pain.
Planning has now essentially changed so not a problem. You should just use a wall mounted solution as you’ll likely only need a 5kw unit.
I can't help but feel that something like a communally shared ground source heat pump will be one of the only solutions to get off fossil fuels for most normal terraced housed. That would be a major challenge.
Could work.... but huge amounts of disruption and an absolute legal nightmare given the UK property laws!
@@HeatGeek Yeah, thinking on it further, you'd also never get the drilling rig in the back yard of a terraced house.
Maybe someone needs to develop large roof vents that funnel air through an ASHP sited in the loft. They'd have to be huge to handle the air volumes. That'd also need changes to regulation as you can't have R290 inside the house (even though a gas heater and gas hobs are apparently completely fine)
Literally about to move house in London, this is the data that I need. Second thought... Aren't all of the heat geeks over worked and over booked? Is there a point where further promotion just makes your installers pressured and sad?
We have a huge waiting list of Heat Geek trained and verified installers. We take great pains to make sure folks have sufficient work through the platform, but not too much to be overwhelmed! Our installers' business and mental happiness is incredibly important to us. Please reach out to us on upgrades@heatgeek.com if you need any further info, but we can definitely connect you with a great installer in London
The kitchen is the "plant" room
Underfloor heating and a flow temp of 45-50C? Better not be Engineered Wood Flooring then. I realise flow temp and emitter temps are different, but not by 20C. In other videos 35C is given as more efficient.
The point is ‘even if we needed 45-50c, it would still work” Which we don’t
My question would be why. For a start plumbing and electrical are done when the place is gutted. Not after full restoration. Secondly is the cost. The house shouts money, and you have heat geeks on tap. Money can buy a solution to most things. But for the average punter, not so easy. Then you have a flat roof extension to sit a big ugly box on. I had a similar style house in a terrace for many years. It wouldn't have complied there. And my biggest issue with heat pumps is constant running and constant temperature. I like to turn on on off with a timer. And I like rooms all different temperatures. Heat pumps work. With enough money that could be almost anywhere. Would I want one. No.
Presumably with modern controllers offering different temps at different times, and limiting flow rates you could do what you want with a heat pump? Though it might be cheaper with a more consistent heat?
I'd assume that the timing is to reflect your typical household that isn't also doing considerable internal renovations, i.e. what it would be like if you're turning up at any normal house - most folk aren't gutting their house all that often.
@@michaelwinkley2302 Most people aren't. But this bloke did. I'm a builder, and for the sake of all the trades make your mind up at the right time. Retro fit is just an unnecessary pain for all concerned.
Air to air.
Basically old matey went, I've watched all of your videos so now I'm going to call other companies. Only when that fails I'll call you.
im sure they're utterly devastated. Pretty sure they're going to shut down now.
For sum one thats poor at maths now very poor is the heat geek course a non runner
Not at all. The support is excellent.
Sounds like our home.
Just did your calculator. £7800 in interest alone paying 11.9% over 15 years....
Got a 5 bed 1920 terrace, really want a heat pump, octopus surveyor came said too much of heat loss, so we can’t install. asked British Gas, said no entrances in the backyard, heat pump not allowed to go through front door.
The thing with Octopus and British Gas is they want the easy jobs, try an independent installer.
What did they say your heatloss was? Because Octopus have recently just announced the Cosy 10 also, as of a few days ago
@@metalhead2550is the Cosy 10 much cop (as it were)?
@@metalhead2550 Formally announced it, or Greg Jackson just happened to mention it at the Energy Tech Summit? I'm pretty sure it's not ready yet, and he said sometime early next year. Anyway, it's good news for me as I'm more likely to need the 10.
We'd be really happy to take a look! Check out what our web system says on upgrades.heatgeek.com/
I don't think this is a representative house at all.
Totally renovated back to brick so probably has insulation on all the inside of the exterior walls.
Underfloor heating which is probably as expensive as the heat pump.
I want heat pumps to work I really do. But when your at a situation where the temperature it works at means it's on CONSTANTLY Vs intermittent from higher temp gas boiler + electricity price difference it's wildly more expensive at the moment
You misunderstand stable state heating. It's more comfortable (and typically more efficient) with a (condensing) gas boiler to run low and slow vs intermittent high temps. Stable State heating also allows you to have a lower thermostat temperature as the temperature is kept constant, whereas with intermittent you're usually setting it higher to cater for the fluctuation in the room temperature between the heating cycles.
Stable State heating with a heat pump is where the efficiency really ramps up.
For us; Octopus quote based on house visit and assessment was £500 on top of BUS for Daikin. Heat Geek quote £6500 on top of BUS for same job. Rip off!!!
Different things - i suspect the Octopus job was based on 50-55c flow temp whereas heatgeek will be much lower - but this means probable radiator/pipework changes (hence more cost). However, the heatgeek one will have significantly lower running costs. Capex vs Opex.
Long term hg job will be cheaper due to running. Cost
Use the flue put everything on roof
Give him his due, Adam is trying! He has found a niche, that is Heat Pumps.
Like the gold miners of old, the people who made the most money were the ones selling picks, shovels and wheel barrows!😄
Hi Guys. I sent this comment to John Cantor re RUclips video ref (ruclips.net/video/0oszaqP0TI4/видео.html) What do you think?
SUGGESTION: Use analogue temp "sensors" instead of hysteresis/Differential Thermostats (i.e. Variable instead of On/Off) and the same with the output control signal for the heat pump (and secondary circuit circulation pumps, so there is never a "closed circuit" situation, i.e. always flow round all secondary circuit, i.e.anti-stratification kind of thing, so temps are stable and no sudden shocks to the system, like when a cold circuit suddenly inject a cold slug of water into the primary circuit.....). Closed loop P+I control would prevent "saw tooth" curves on the graphs? Also wondering about the number of starts per hour for the compressor motor, as most motors don't like more than 10/hr. Would be interested to hear your view. Thanks.