What Did We Learn from the Heat Loss Survey?
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2024
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After conducting a thorough heat loss survey, Roger has a chat with John and the Heat Geeks to determine the best strategy for installing John's new heat pump.
Thanks go to:
www.heatgeek.com
@HeatGeek
Tom Plumb
www.tomplumb.com
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#airsourceheatpump #heating #heatpump
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Guy is a good sport for keep going on this. It is valuable to a lot of people.
These conversations are needed. So many houses need insulation, or better, improved insulation whilst we are still balancing the decision between gas boilers and heat pumps.
Absolutely. What I would like to see, rather than the government subsidies which the suppliers hoover up by increasing their prices, I’d rather see home owners get a rebate on something like their council tax. Direct reward to the homeowner is the way to go.
We should also have aerogel insulation. About twice the efficiency of PIR which is about twice the efficiency of fibre glass. It’s said that a house insulated with aerogel could be kept warm in winter with just a candle. Sadly being green has less to do with actual impact to the environment and more to do with extracting money.
Let the market decide. @@davideyres955
Soon there will be no gas option, thank goodness.
Haha@@rogerphelps9939
@@rogerphelps9939 Yeh brilliant for all the people who live in properties that are not suitable for heat pumps, people who are usually less well off as a bonus.
Had my HP since June 22. Works very well and no regrets.
Will be really keen to see the results from this
I love these videos with skill builder and heat geek. Both in different ways have the interest of the public at heart, and you can see them acknowledge and respect each others point of view. 👍
Great couple of videos. Currently waiting on the calcs and ground source pump sizing from my contractor. Now I know what they are all about. Very informative
I can recommentd a GSHP. I have a 9kw Ecoforest.
Great videos guys. Love all the details and information you provide.😊
Fantastic to see Roger and co really get stuck in to heat pumps. Sure they may not be perfect/simple but done properly they are an option.
I have always said that they are an option but for many people not a viable one.
Very good breakdown on the pros and cons of the heatpump. These guys from Heat Geek are clearly knowing what they're doing, and it is good to have to deal with them only during the complete installation and commissioning proces. They are the people to trust when it comes on getting a heat pump.
And true, insulation is such an important aspect of making a heat pump work, I did a big improvement on the insulation of my house first, cutting gas usage in half. Now I'm sure the heat load is low enough to make efficient use of a heat pump with UFH, from around 15kWh of heat per degree day to 5.5-6.5 kWh heat per degree day, and lowering even more this year as I'm going to install floor insulation and still have one external wall to insulate. The pitched roof is moderately insulated and this will also be addressed in the next 2 or 3 years.
I had a heat pump fitted 2 years ago and had fitted 270mm of roof insulation to cover what I could easily. The Air Source Heat Pump, was professionally fitted and has worked perfectly. It turned out my 5 bedroom detached house at 171 square metres of floor area had very old cavity wall insulation. During the first year I used 3500kWh.
The insulation was then removed and replaced in the cavity and I was told it had broken down to the point it was as if I had none.
This year we used 2500kWh.
The house has been warm throuout and as I did my homework I had learnt to heat the whole house. We maintain 18c with a 2c drop overnight. Even at the most highest use, this has been cheaper to run than my old LPG boiler.
Also I had realised that my MyEnergi Eddie was not the best use of my solar and I use home assistant to turn on the ASHP if Eddi is triggered. This means I can export more solar energy and get paid more back.
I am not surprised that you made a saving compared to LPG. It is good to know the heat pump is working well.
I think currently use of the grid electricity is 30p/ kWh can I ask what you sell it to the grid for ?
Octopus Energy pay me 15 pence per kWh that I export. I pay 7.5 pence for my cheap overnight tariff also filling my 13.5kWh battery, so that I pay less of the 30 pence day rate.
For your information I pay £120 a month and that covers my EV for 10,000 miles per year, heating, cooking and home use.
I used some savings that were not growing and invested in my house, making massive savings per month.
@@Jaw0lf it's interesting that if you got a large battery and charged it for 7 hours at night then sold it to the grid at twice the rate you can double your money ? I realize it's not 100% efficient when charging a car battery but 15kwh @ 30p/kwh is £4.50 so only a saving of £2 on an economy 7 meter per night . What you need is a night storage heater built into your ASHP
@@Jaw0lf forgive my back of the envelope maths but if you get 200 miles per charge with the car ? You should only be charging once per week and an annual cost of £250 should cover that , 10,000 miles at 30mpg in petrol would cost over £2500/ year in fuel.
I must have the range of an EV wrong ...
In Adam’s defence I understand the difficulty in troubleshooting a system on the first visit that a couple of different firms have worked on.
In the original video Adam recommends removing pump , zone valves, uf manifold and buffer, and because of the noise and age the outside units. When John then remarks that the system does work, but it’s just too expensive to run , Adam replies that is an easy fix a weather compensation sensor will fix it.
So John paid a shed load of money for the initial install.
Then another shed load to a firm to get it working.
Now another shed load to replace and alter the existing install, all in the space of 7 years ?
Unbelievable. If you let all this sink for a minute it’s shocking.
They still couldn’t have used the existing one due to the noise it makes
@@HeatGeek
Is the problem the noise or the 45 deg minimum output?
@@HeatGeek This comment wasn’t a dig at Adam and I understand that the original units are noisy and probably not the best . I was highlighting the cost to the homeowner , 3 installs in 7 years for a heating system that at best won’t be any cheaper to run .
It wasn't the age of it, it had been installed on the wonk and wore it's bearing out if I remember correctly @@haydnlawrence8167
I removed the buffer on my hp in Cornwall and it improved my scop, also no glycol or caleffi valves for freezing. I have never seen a hp damaged by frost in 11 years of fixing them. I really enjoyed these vids
Replaced with close coupled tee's?
@@markturner503nothing to do with Close coupled tees. Its for extra system volume and for the defrost cycles
Get a gas boiler. They will be doing " Was you mis sold a ASHP Come to we will Make money solicitors no win no fee.
@@richardlyons7582 😂👍
You’re doing a great job Heat Geek. I’m on my way to becoming one myself.
Can't wait for the next installment, I wish I had that software years ago as it would save days on some of my larger installs, It has been very informative these two videos, sad thing is I am retiring, only doing part-time now, would have loved to have done your course Adam.
Really good video and very informative. Heat pumps are obviously not for everyone but have their purpose when used efficiently with good installation and in conjunction with other things such as a well insulated house, underfloor heating etc
This was a really in depth and meaningful conversation
Great conversation and balanced views from each side of the equation.
Whilst I already have a HP (and very happy with it!), I’m always listening to these conversations as I’m asked all the time about it by people making the switch, so good to be informed. Thanks guys!
Kudos to the customer for sticking this out!!
How much does it cost to run?
That’s a bit like saying, ‘I’ve got a car - how much does it cost to run? It’s objective since it’s only relative to the size and type of car, how you drive it etc. the house is the same, size, type of heat deployment (underfloor Vs radiators) heat loss calcs etc etc.
In other words I could ask the same question about a gas/oil boiler and get an infinite number of different answers.
It’s also very dependent on electricity tariffs and how smartly you use those.
The honest answer is I would have to put it all into a spreadsheet to work it out exactly because we have EV’s and other electrical appliances that hoover up electricity plus we use smart tariffs, have got solar and a battery but my bills are still less than they were when I had two gas boilers, way less.
In binary comparison, my gas and elec were around £800 a month in the winter months before (!) the price hikes now around £500 in winter reducing to around £300 in summer - but this includes 2 cars amongst other things.
Long answer but I don’t have enough data points to answer exactly and would be subjective to be relevant in any example.
Great questions and answers
Great conversation
Really looking forward to seeing the alterations to John's system completed and hopefully a comfortable home for him and his family. These guys defo have the knowledge and skills to make it happen. It might just help change people's opinions on heat pumps. Only problem is the initial outlay which would price a lot of people out of the market, myself included. John seems to be in a position to make it happen but no doubt it leaves a bitter taste after already investing a lot of money into something that didn't perform.
so on conclusion keep your combi condensing boiler.
One of the negative points to highlight with many heat pump videos concerning running costs. ie "we can make it cheaper to run than a gas boiler", although it can be installed correctly (often not) and run effectively, the slightly misleading bit ( may not be deliberate), you cant compare the boiler "run cost" to the new heat pump after you have just "upgraded the properties insulation". its a major flaw in the comparison. How about fitting all the insulation, optimising the gas heating, record running cost records, THEN compare to the heat pump costs. A gas boilers consumption would drop if you made all the similar system improvements. If you build a new house with U/F heating, excellent insulation etc etc, the running GAS cost would also be much lower. Comparisons do need to be on a level playing field to understand what the comparable costs really are.. Point I'm making is a HP savings if there are any, my be mostly due to the improved insulation and a optimised control system, not necessarily due to the HP. Another point that is so often not mentioned? For arguments sake, say HP has COP =3 , gas is 3x cheaper, in my case 4x cheaper than electric, it equalises out to be same cost.
The vast majority of our installations have 0 insulation upgrades so account for this.
Gas is on average 83% efficient so is would need to be 3.5 x cheaper.
Our average efficiency is 4.2 so would need to be 5 x cheaper
Smart tariffs make electricity much cheaper for heat pumps than standard
Plus, we need to keep in mind that fossil fuel prices are bound to go up in the future.
@@HeatGeek Currently I lean towards air to air, air con units. Matured market, easy spares, and for general public more air con engineers with experience around.
@@annedreikandt7361 so will electricity, net zero will make sure we will be in energy poverty forever.
Glad your doing this series. I know it’ll take a year for their energy bills to come through so we can see a comparison but that will be the interesting bit to most people.
We are going to montior it live online so you can see how it performs day by day.
My heat pump modulates down to about a fifth. Ecoforest 9kw GSHP. Works very well.
do you have a backup immersion heater?
@@hrvojelasic5794won't be needed on a GSHP
We went with Hard foam in the 6 inch walls, and soft foam in the attic. You can take a laser Thermometer in winter, and it is the same at the 10 foot ceilings as on at the floor.
My neighbour still has economy7 storage heaters, I use gas. My gas bill is £70 per month now, but used to be that a quarter before increases. I have loft and cavity insulation. That's for 12hours heat and hot water. It's got a cylinder to store hot water and is an 18KW Ideal ICOS. Not a combination. It was to replace an old boiler at the back of a Glowworm gas fire years ago when that was changed. Apart from a 2nd hand boiler PCB for £25 off ebay that i changed and ignition electrode change for £12, it has been perfect for years.
It's very cheap to run for a very warm 22c.
My neighbour spends around £250/month and although they can get to 20c, the heat doesn't last a full day. They end up using 3KW heaters.
Their house, when built in the 60s never had a gas supply fitted as the 1st buyers never wanted it. To get that done is far too expensive now. They looked at grants for heat pumps, but feel it would cost more and be less efficient than having aircon units fitted.
Brilliant presentation. Skilled tradespeople with real engineering skills, maybe the general public will one day consider engineering and related trades as a cool career choice.
Becareful what you wish for, the government will insist they have a degree.
We've got a buffer on the return. This only increases the the water in the system but very minimally impacts the sCOP. We've done this so to be able to close more underfloor heating flow groups without the heating circling on/off.
That’s called a volumiser when it is fitted on the return.
keen to see if it works!
I have been installing heat pumps for over 40 years and inverter technology has been around on many manufacturers equipment for well over 15 years on domestic air to water heat pumps. It is better to operate a heat pump that can modulate to as low an output as possible, with back up electrical heaters providing additional heat during the very coldest periods. This set up helps to prevent stop starting of the compressor and this in turn improves reliability. Stopping and starting compressors is where most of the wear and tear occurs. This will occur more if the heat pump is over capacity and is generally operating at the usual average winter temperature of 7°C (south of England). The heat pump inverter will not be able to modulate down low enough to prevent the compressor from stopping and starting. Weather compensation will exacerbate this as the flow temperature will reduce as the outdoor ambient temperature rises. Using electrical back up heaters that switch on extremely rarely, can actually increase efficiency over that of using an 'oversized' heat pump. I have this set up in my own home. It has been perfect in 11 years of operation. Then again I did design and install it myself as an experiment. I live in a 3 bed, draughty, uninsulated, granite built cottage and did this as an experiment to see if it would work. As long as your heat capacity matches your heat loss it is not a problem. I run fan convectors and and 8.0kW heat pump with 6.0kW of back up heaters. Those heaters are very rarely on as the balance point of my property for heat output of the heat pump without electric heaters is around 1°C. The coldest temperatures annually where I live are around 1°C at night. It very rarely gets much below 2 or 3°C. Correct design and commissioning of the system is everything in heat pumps. My energy bills are less than £130 per month and we are in an all electric household. I still prefer gas central heating 😁
Great comment. You sound like somebody we should have on the channel. Good experience
We actually done a load of work around this, balancing undersizing the heat pump vs use of back up and now have data to share aswell as a calculator we are reassessing and it doesn’t quite work as well as you would think.. The other problem is dno applications and max fuse capacity. Most homes will not cope with the load and is a constant thorn in our side.
It's also a grid's nightmare to have all these back up heaters that will go on at the same time. It might be a cheaper solution for an individual but you are socializing costs onto the national grid.
A great thing about this dialogue is it properly when through the updates.
Careful Rodger. With all this high quality content you might end up with your very own diy range in Poundland.
I really like these joint videos.
I agree with the conversation towards the end on customers should be able to claim in missold heating system installations, and the cost should land on the installer who should be claiming from the designer (if applicable), the same should be true for solar installations. The biggest issue is so many of the companies that did poor installations have already left the market in some way or another.
I work in social housing where government funded schemes for heat pumps, solar PV, insulation etc have been the norm. Companies appear, take advantage of the millions of pounds available, turn out poor jobs on a large scale, then disappear never to be seen again. We've removed a lot of heat pump installs and installed gas boilers again believe or not. The whole thing is about statistics looking good not quality and it stinks.
Installers should be MCS registered. They should get the appropriate training.
@@rogerphelps9939 they were MCS. That's a requirement that goes out as part of the tender. They're not sat on the shoulder of the contractor though unfortunately.
I will be interested to see how this installation works out and the running cost.
I am looking forward to the next part, is it coming soon?
In Norway where almost no one have gas in their house at all and oil is illegal so we only have electric heat or wood stove (that EU is also trying to ban...) I guess 80% of our heat is heat pump.
Much is also electric floor heating that some say is more efficient but it is NOT efficient at all!
I have 4.5Kw floor heat and with only that in the winter when -10°C it is constantly on and have to use additional 2Kw heater and still struggle to keep above 17°C innside.
Got a 7Kw Panasonic heat pump mini split that only uses about 1.2 to 1.7Kw electricity and i now have over 20°C where i want it even at -20°C and still save A LOT of money on electricity, the price crisis we had last years it earned it in 2 times in 3 years 😅😁
And also last days where its been around -5°C ive only used 19Kw a day to keep 20°C 24/7
With floor heating it was 80 to 100KW each day and still was freezing cold...
Since i got heat pump the floor heating has never been on!
I wish it was water floor heat so i could retrofit a heatpump to it.
I'd be interested in the tariff prices in Norway. In the UK electricity is around 4X the price of gas. What is the comparison in Norway?
Electric floor heating must burn money.
It looks like you Roger have caused a lot of discussion since your first video knocking heat pumps? It also seems that a lot of heat engineers were caught on the hop and have upped their game. Well done Roger.
I am still waiting for my Heatgeek design consultation (two months nearly and no update) but was wondering while I wait about if the system breaks down. If in the dead of Winter how long to get an engineer visit (or do they have remote access) and how long to fix? My 2014 Oil boiler failed on our coldest day (-3.6c / 25.5f) and I had no heat for nearly three hours!
Thanks Roger, gruff sometimes but must commend your open mind
Thanks for these detailed discussions and poor install cases explained. We are about to move to a property that we intend to take apart to insulate and redo pipework etc hen consider a ground source heat pump. In ireland if you do a retrofit to a certain high standard they pay 75% of the costs. We cant even get VAT removed for such projects. Our housing stock is old and poor quality so need much more help than currently available or suggested.
It would seem that whenever Rodger is the presence of the Heat Geek fellow he doesn't look a happy bunny 😂
on the contrary I am very happy to be doing these videos with Adam. He is a good guy, we just don't agree about a number of things. I like that. I am not comfortable when I am surrounded by people who just agree with me without putting up a fight.
I thought that was his happy face 😄!
Doesn't like someone who knows more than him 😅
Roger, I'm on your side@@SkillBuilder
@@SkillBuilder"I am not comfortable when I am surrounded by people who just agree with me without putting up a fight"
You'd be very comfortable around my wife then ;-)
I'm sure there was a video regarding how many heat pumps you can have in a certain area before some of them become useless due to starvation of heat available in the soil. To many factors to be taken into account. Soil type and it's ability to retain and replenish enough heat to be viable, amount of heat pumps the soil can handle especially in winter, if you live in a flat or city/town it's not an option, cost to install and have serviced /repaired professionally
Honestly this is one of the best videos yet because of the discussion. Honestly point blank refusing to fit a heat pump in some peoples houses have done wonders for our reputation especially when large national companies have had someone design it remotely and sent their engineering teams to fit the system within a week. Then afterwards, 6-12 months down the line the customers contact you and go "we're experiencing exactly what you warned us of" it's quite gratifying.
Unless you're going to have the design, installation and commissioning engineer as the same small team/person it's really not worth taking on some of the larger companies otherwise you have exactly what John has experienced. Fault finding and rectification on anything after multiple companies have had a hand in before is extremely expensive for the majority of people and situations.
Thanks guys, that was really informative and interesting. It seems to be a common theme that when governments push a solution with grants, it generally backfires as it encourages the wrong people to get into the game for the easy cash giving the whole business a bad rep.
The thing that would concern me is having radiators in a conservatory - BIG NO NO! and the visible gaps around the doors into the conservatory! Current B.Regs and for a good few years have not allowed heating in a conservatory and that it must have physical separation from the main heated envelope. I despair when a compliant house's new owners install radiators in their 'new' conservatory as they wish to use it as a 'year round' space! They are second'd only by people who put radiators in their garage with no thermal upgrades !
Just use a mini split. That might use half a kilowatt to keep it comfortable.
I help noticing the huge gaps around the doors to the conservatory! 😮. Draft excluders must be the most cost effective means of reducing your energy bills ever invented - no science required 😊
Fantastic video shining a light on what the actual transition would look like. Brilliant Mr skill builderWhat percentage of UK houses are suitable for a heat pump today without significant additional insulation? After you finish talking about the difference between the cost of heat pump and the cost of a boiler you can carry on talking about external insulation. Most sensible people who could have insulated lofts and cavity walls have done. What we have left is a lot of people like me living in a 1930s 9-inch brick house. Let's see a cost breakdown of all of this please😊
'What percentage of UK houses are suitable for a heat pump today without significant additional insulation?' - I would say, perhaps 10%? Older housing stock (pre 1946) makes up around 40% and they are not suitable unless you want to spend perhaps 50K+ on updating them and paying for an install. Housing from last 20/30 years with internal timber framing (with external brickwork) will probably not need such a system because they are relatively warm in winter and hot as hell in the summer. That does not leave that many homes! Perhaps the government will outlaw our old homes - who knows, anything is possible...
There's no way I'm getting a heat pump installed until a) there are enough quality engineers to install it properly, and b) there are enough quality engineers to come and fix it when it breaks.
That's never been a problem, it's routing out the chaff that is the problem.
And c) when our houses are suitable like in scandinavia and d) when it's affordable for the average working family who live paycheque to paycheque
As said here, there are 2000 HeatGeek engineers across the country, so when are you getting one installed.
@@derekclark7545 how many homes are there in the UK?
@@chimpana How many homes with airsource heat pumps in the UK?
If you have enough flow rate above the minimum flow rate of the heat pump you can shut down zones as long as the water content of the remaining live circuit is above a minimum to avoid stop/start on the heat pump. Saving heat loss and pumping power is just as important and if the heat pump has a flow rate above its minimum it can work.
Heat Geek have a video on the subject entitled "Why NOT to ZONE Heat Pumps! or boilers". Long story short, the overall heat loss tends to not drop by enough to justify the reduced capacity of the radiators, which in turn increases the required flow temperature.
@@yngndrw. I will watch, thanks, but it’s really about pumping power not heat loss, assuming reduced flow is still meeting manufacturers minimum flow requirements
@@swisby3820 But the issue is that turning off some radiators effectively decreases the total surface area of radiators within the property. The rate at which heat is transferred is governed by the surface area and the difference in temperature between the mean water temperature (Which is indeed affected by flow rate, but they already mentioned a temperature delta of 5C across the radiators in the last video) and the room temperature. Decreasing the surface area means that the mean water temperature must increase to provide the same overall output. The point that the Heat Geek video makes is that the heat loss reduction isn't large enough to offset the reduction in radiator surface area.
Hello! Really appreciate the show and the free information! Great effort!
What about the question at 01:35 ? What is the problem with oversizing hp ?
How bad does cycling on and off every half an hour affects the lifespan of the hp unit ?
Thank you
It’s not so much about the lifespan of the unit, rather the efficiency that it runs at. A heat pump runs most efficiently if it runs as continuously as possible, providing the lowest flow temperature required to maintain the required indoor temperature. That’s what weather compensation is for, adjusting the operation based on external temperature. To achieve a high SCOP (>4) you don’t want an oversized, cycling pump.
Best if you have a modulating heat pump. Mine goes down to 0.7kw input and up to 3.5 kw input.@@simonm9923
Well, this gent has to buy another hp. On this note, if i pay 15000£ for a system i have to know the lifespan of the sayd system.
PS for 15000£ i can heat my house with my gas boiler for about 15 years ....no headaches on my part.
We are not righ enough to save the planet on our dime and as that chap at Oxford sayd: if tomorrow Britain sank there will be no dent in global co2 emissions.
Is the principal of getting the flow around the system as quickly as possible if i understand correctly the same for a pool?
Another very good video, but I watched your NRG Awareness interview first, so I'm really conflicted.
I loved my air source cold climate heat pump until the power went off for 75 hours last March…spring was in the air but still got down to -12C at night. Now I’ve got a direct vent gas fireplace that works during power outages to supplement…HP love affair, not so much.
You would have had the same problem with a gas boiler as they don’t work without electricity 😊
@@HeatGeek The unit I selected will operate off four AA batteries in the event of a power failure. In that mode, only the fire will work…no fan. I also have a 2 kw Bluetti power supply that will run the fan too. If necessary, I can recharge the Bluetti using my gasoline generator. In my last house I was able to run a gas furnace using the gasoline generator, but my heat pump power needs are in excess of the generator’s capacity. It gets so cold here near Ottawa, Canada…I’m used to frequent ice storms causing outages lasting several hours, up until last March the longest I remember was 20 hours…75 hours was a disconcerting stretch too long. Today, at a balmy -7C, my heat pump is working nicely.
Problem is, they ‘trickle’ in heat. But when temperatures are -2 outside with doors opening and closing thats a major heat transfer on top of poor insulation detail. Room temperature drop of 2 degrees yes is nothing at the room level of a thermostat, yet that cold draught that may be at ankle height is the killer. You look at the house you are in. I bet there is some draught that comes in through those internal doors between the conservatory in the winter. The heat trickling in compared to a traditional boiler is nearly mitigated.
Has the upgrade to the system now been carried out?
Many thanks to the property owner for allowing us to follow his problems & solutions that are suggested.
Be great to see a follow up video.
Yes and yes, It was filmed last week and we will be putting it out a.s.a.p
What a great series.
Very interesting but I won’t be bothering with a heat pump anytime soon!
The main reason is, for me, I have just bought a new build Barrett eco house.
It has an eco combi boiler, but the biggest advantage is that it has super efficient insulation!
In the walls, the windows are energy efficient,argon gas filled, the loft is filled with 40cm of higher performance lagging etc.
This is why a new build house is more efficient and doesn’t need a heat pump!
I may go for solar panels later on just to make a direct saving on electricity costs!
Retro fitting a heat pump to an older house is like trying to make a square peg fit a round hole!
It sounds like your new build would have been perfect for a heat pump, had the builder been obligated to put one in. Would likely have saved you money too. Obviously, nobody should be putting a heat pump in a house that has a reasonably new working boiler. If I were you, I'd be annoyed that a house builder put a system in that may end up costing a fortune to replace, when they knew that heat pumps would be being (forcefully) adopted in the near future. It sounds like everything about your build would have been perfect for a heat pump, and would have been far simpler and less expensive to design into the original build than it will be to fit further down the line.
It seems to me that there are as many people ideologically opposed to heat pumps as there are those selling them as a panacea. They're just a bit of fairly efficient heating equipment. I say this as someone who is in the same boat as yourself. I have a reasonably new home with an oil boiler (oil tank, we're in the countryside), that would be better suited to a heat pump too, from an obvious efficiency increase perspective. I'll keep my oil boiler as long as I can because a retrofit will be challenging. In fairness to my builder, the technology was still quite new (to him, anyway) in the UK when the house was built and he wasn't confident of his ability to fit it well.
I watched a YT video of this guy who lived in an old stone cottage in Wales. His set up started out with PV panels, then a battery and finally to get them off LPG, he fitted a Samsung HP. He had to increase the size of his rads and make sure insulation was maximised (I don't think he went as far as internal or external wall insulation on the solid stone walls). He was achieving flow temps around 35C and a SCOP of over 4.
@@JohnnyMotel99so 35 and scop of 4, is that enough all year round? How much does it cost to run the heat pump, or savings versus the old type he had?
You will eventually get a heat pump. We will eventually be unable to use gas because the environmental costs are huge. Your grandchildren will pay for that.
@@Google_Does_Evil_Now Well, he had no access to NatGas, only LPG and electricity. From watching his videos, he has cut his energy costs dramatically with solar, battery and now a heatpump. I have to say I was surprised he managed a low flow temp and a reasonable SCOP in a solid stone built property.
The ‘buffer’ you are talking about is for hydronic separation to allow a secondary pump, it’s not a buffer
If it was only allowing hydraulic separation you wouldn’t use a buffer you’d use a low loss header. The buffer is also to add volume and allow longer run times. It buffers the energy spikes
@@HeatGeek I fully understand this, but in the house in question I understood that the ‘buffer’ was not used as a volumiser but to allow a higher head pump to circulate into the house. Agreed that a low loss header is better for this as long as the two flow rates match.
Yeah -7°C is probably coming from the German Design rule. We design for the coldest day of the year which was available at least 10 times in the last 20 years (Normaussentemperatur) . This means in Germany you Design systems for -7 to -15. This is why in Germany most systems are too big sized an not very efficient at milder days. But I would say this knowledge also slowly trickles down right now to heating engineers.
Thermia vertical closed-loop geothermal system 💯
Interesting point about it being quite academic. I'm doing a masters at university (Energy Engineering), and these calculations and considerations seem to be near that level lol. There is very little mention about heatpumps across entire engineering degrees, even this energy engineering one.
My thermodynamics lecturer would probably be baffled by some of this, how on earth the average joe will know this I don't know. Courses like heatgeek seem to help a lot in that regard.
I kind of wish it became common knowledge (heatpumps work better at lower flow temps etc) so users of heatpumps understood. How many tenants in rental properties are going to complain their radiators aren't getting hot when they have a heatpump designed for low flow temps and they're used to 70c rads.
Maybe Martin Lewis money saving expert will tell us all to turn down flow temps like he said about gas condensing boilers lol.
I'm an engineer (consultant) working in the industry and I come across what you describe all the time. People are used to radiators so hot that they're painful to touch. If surfaces or air streams aren't perceived as "hot" then something isn't working. There's an educational journey needed for users before lower temperature heating becomes accepted.
@@mikekelly5869yep, my in-laws blast up their thermostats constantly until the rooms become unbearable and then they open windows. In fairness, they've not long had gas central heating, having been used to a coal fire and electric radiators. It's taken about a decade for my wife to finally stop cranking our radiators and just be patient in waiting for the room to heat up. However, go into her car, and she's got the thermostat immediately blasted to 25 degrees. I keep having to tell her that the higher number has no bearing on the speed at which it reaches temperature, but it will result in a stifling hot car that you have to open the windows in. I've noticed it when a passenger in many cars, so it must be a thing where people need to go beyond a comfortable temperature first before they can then feel comfortable. My wife now uses a hot water bottle if she can't wait for the heating to warm the house back to temperature.
The problem is humans arnt great at accurately sensing temperature. There’s times we feel hot or cold and the temperature is the exact same. In addition if you are sitting in a draft and you have skin exposed it will feel colder than it actually is. Add in to this that men and women like different temperatures and the engineers have their work cut out.
I find it incredible you are engaged on a Masters without realising that these calculations associated with designing the hydronics side of a heat pump are around O level standard.
Hello. Can I please clarify something: regarding boosting the system when it’s below design temp…an immersion heater was mentioned. Would the DHW tank immersion count/work? Or are we talking about adding another immersion tank into the CH system? Thanks.
No. A totally different circuit.
The immersion they are taking about is in the hot water system yes
Before i get slagged i will have one but i will have my lpg gas boiler connected so i can easily switch to gas combie boiler when i need to.
We’ve had a Ecodan installed in a new build , we have been told to leave the actuators on 3 underfloor circuits loose to stop it turning off and going L9 ☹️
A lot of people take them all off and open all the valves. If you restrict the flow to a heat pump it doesn't like it.
People put in underfloor heating systems that are controlled by room stats and then disable the lot.
How much does all this efficiency cost and how reliable is it going to be. from what i have seen these systems are quite complicated and technical usually this is a recipe for unreliability.
Plenty of rowing back on the original visit. 'Remove buffer' and 'reuse the existing high performance pump'! 🤔
Because it’s a complex subject and while there is a pattern to installations one side dosnt fit all and it’s not until you do the appropriate calculations that you can say with certainty what is best.
Octopus Energy install in around 3-5 days a retrofit. I wonder how good their installs are? Octopus quote in my case £8100 heat geek plumber quoted minimum £ 15000
Ours would have been 15,000 take the bus grant of £7,500 leaves 7500 to pay…
I asked Geekd what I needed to do. They said I would have to pay £350 for a quote and I think it was over £1100 for a guarantee of performance. So I pay to guarantee an incompetent install ?
I have microbore in my insulated 30 year old house on the ground floor. I have zero confidence that I won’t need my house gutted to update pipes to cope.
Maybe ok for new houses but most older houses are not suitable unless you have thousands of spare cash
And sufficient space for a plant room and a spare house wall preferably well exposed to a Southerly direction. I know, I'll rotate my housr 90° and build an extension to put all the gubbins in to.
God Almighty.
@@nickhickson8738
Minor detail Nick. Five minute job and will cost £1.50. I’ve had 3 informal estimates the lowest was £15,000. All recommended replacing microbore. Oh, and one refused to even estimate because the job was too disruptive and expensive.
That’s in a house built in 1989. Just not designed to be chopped about just so you can feel better about the survival of the penguins in Antarctica.
Not forgetting the zero payback in most middle aged people’s lifetime. Gas boiler ? Top of the range installed and working in a day for £2500.
Somebody do the math please…..
This is ridiculous. Quotes should be free and performance guaranteed by the installer. If the installer has done sufficient installs he should know what to expect. Regarding microbore my house was built in 1979 with an open vented central heating system using microbore from 22 mm boiler feed pipe manifolds. It even had a back boiler behind the sitting room fireplace. To save money the builders used coaxial radiator valves which meant that the flow and return went to one side of the radiators only. It was an awful system and double panel radiators never worked very well. For my heat pump install all radiators were replaced with ones of appropriate size. The wall areas did not change mmuch because the new radiators were either double panel double convector or double panel single convector. I dug up the floor and put in 15mm pipe where necessary to make all radiators double ended with TEVs and lockshield valves. I did not dig up the bulk of the microbore. I now have an Ecoforest 9kw ground source heat pump which works extremely well. Therefore there is no reason why you cannot retain your existing microbore. It works. Just make sure that your insulation is good and your radiators are properly sized.
So when power cuts kick in?
I'll keep my log burner and diesel heater for backup.
Boiler goes off anyway...
@@rob.1 my diesel heater and log burner don't go off.
Listening to the point re your bedroom temperature l have heard this story all my life (75) including my own situation, and this does not only apply to the bedrooms, we need to design heating systems to provide regional temperatures in rooms for total comfort.
I will never take the H. P nor Solar route simply because the efficiency we try to achieve will cost far to much to install and maintain in its complexity.
It’s rather like Electric Vehicles they are to expensive, like you if we need some local heat we plug in a heater to boost.
Until houses are designed with air locks at openings “and that’s not going to happen any time soon” gas boilers are still the way forward in my opinion.
Thanks Roger, gonna hold off as long as possible with this technology!
How do you get that from these vids 😂
I'd like to see a few working well near me before taking the plunge. Perhaps they'll even specify some for UK temps in the future. Crazy huh!?!?
@@BillOdyssey well there will be plenty already, heat pumps are everywhere 👍
@@jrisner6535 Enjoy!
I had Octopus out for a survey and they said i needed an extra 50mm of loft insulation to get the grant. Which given my loft is overly full of stuff means I'm really reticent to do. Someone suggested I bribe someone to get a energy survey done whicy says its compliant but that seems hard as well.
Come on. You probably have 200 mm of insulation in your loft already. An extra 50mm will be cheap and make bugger all difference to the space.
@@rogerphelps9939 the idea of emptying out my whole loft? Its in no way the money and entirely the pain of emptying over a decade of hoarding to do it.
You're welcome to come and do it.
8:05 Adam bragging as he's about to get trashed by Szymon @urbanplumbers 😅
Haha slightly different houses! Mines 100 years old and not upgraded.. his has had insane upgrades. I’ve also got some secret tests on at mine which lower scop which you’ll all see soon!
Interesting discussion but I haven't read anything about the potential cost of an installation and the actual amount of work involved. I have been quoted in the region of £30,000 for all the necessary work, which would include a heat pump, heatstore/tank, new radiators and replacement pipework. I have already upgraded my insulation as much as practicable. Much as a heat pump system might be desirable the costs outweigh any advantage as a pensioner.
I haven't heard anyone mention payback time. Cost benefits analysis. Future energy costs , what about maintenance
They never do. Ridiculous expense upfront and ongoing
Yearly service/maintenance charges
The cost benefit analysis should include the environmental costs of CO2 emissions. These never appear o n any balance sheet but are real nevertheless. We have to go green and gas for fuel really is a stupid thing. If we don't out grandchildren are going to curse us because they will be paying the bill. Therefore the payback time ismany hundreds of years of avoided global warming. Now do you get it? It is not about today, it is for many years into the future.
@@rogerphelps9939 You means the positives of course. The greening in the sahel, the french oak forests, Russian steppes etc. i agree ! we should have a subsidy to burn more fuel and create more co²
You are ridiculous. There are far more negatives to global warming than positives. Seems you get your "information" from some fossil fuel outfit.@@stephenrichards5386
I got an ASHP & UFH
It’s unconnected ….it’s a new build there’s led bulbs, and over a few weekends we used electrical heaters.
Over 3 weeks I received an Electric bill for £300 😡
I’m 6min in …was the customer talking about Solar (thermal) re heating the hot water and the chap with the curly hair …mentioning solar (voltaic) for heating the immersion?
Were they both talking about the same type of Solar ?? I got the impression they weren’t
The customer was talking about using solar PV for heating water in the summer. The Heat Geek did not really finish explaining his proposed alternative which would have been using the heat pump to heat the water (leveraging the COP of 3) and use or export surplus generation (on an Octopus tariff 15p KWh) - I think.
He means, solar thermal to warm water and Solar PV to generate electricity to run Heat pump/ emersion for hot water back up. This is absolute madness.
it loks like my 1802 stone cosstage is worthless expect as a cleared building site under the incoming heatloss and heating rules in Scotland they are even proposing to ban the sale of houses which don't comply regardless of the age. I've an oil boiler. it will be a shame as the cottages has been in family for over 100 years.
In winter, we (and many other families I'm sure) put clothes on 65 to 70 degree radiators which dry in 2-3 hours.
They'll take forever to dry with the lower flow temp on a heat pump.
Now waiting to be patronised...
Haha sure, or you get a dryer! But you're right, that won't work anymore.
Not patronising you, but a de humidifier will be better as using the rad as the rad will be adding humidity to the air.
There are heat pump dryers that effectively are dehumidifiers inside the tumble dryer.
The problem with adding water in the air is you increase your risk of damp on things like windows and the reveals around them. If the air gets through in to your loft or places that are cold you can get lots of damp and mould and rot.
I’ve got a desiccant one that works down to colder levels as it’s going in the garage eventually, but it’s indoors at the moment and works great to dry clothes.
Have a dehumidifier my rads don't get very hot because my house is relatively well insulated I have the heating on constantly so the boiler only quick on shortly resulting in flow temperature being relatively low. The dehumidifier will bring the home moisture content down forcing the stuff the dry essentially.
I got a dryer and my house is so much warmer as a result of getting rid of clothes drying inside.
Wrong. I often do it with my heat pump radiators. No problems.
I don't know alot about heat pumps so im not slamming them but since ive found out they use such a low flow temperature ive realised one would never be an option.
we need either 55° flow temp for a few hours to heat up, or 60°-65° to do it quickly, if we could only have 35°-45° the house would never be warm throughout winter, it would only work in summer when the boiler isn't doing much work anyway so what would be the point?
How do people get their house to be able to use such low temps? Obviously we have cavity wall etc.
I've got a 30° flow, 180m2 house all radiators. 25yr old bungalow with 300mm in loft, 70mm in walls and 50mm in floor. It just runs low and slow, ticks over all day long and keep us at 21.5° inside.
Are we going to get a truthful cost of all this from start to finish including the Electric bill monthly through the winter
Seems to be the question no one can answer or perhaps avoiding 🤷♂️
What you're saying is it's all about total system efficiency .
Every system needs to be a bespoke layout & designed for that property !
So you still need a 3kW heater which will no doubt be running 24/7 during winter and you need to run the heat pump all year round. My gas boiler is turned off for 6 or 7 months a year.
we suggest not to do that
Surely having an element backup on the heating would be an obvious thing to have? What if we have a 10 day -10 spell next winter? It could happen.
A Roger says, just plug in a fan heater. The simpler solution is often better.
@@robinbennett5994 Lol are you serious? hahaahhaaha I think he was being ironic?
@@robinbennett5994 O used a fan heater last time my boiler broke lol...
@@chunkymonkey55555 I don't think he was - a fan heater would be the same power as an immersion heat, and you can put it wherever you need it.
@@robinbennett5994 So, what you are saying is, this guy, is going to spend like hmm £12000 on a heat pump heating system, then, when it gets really cold, he is going to plug in a fan heater to heat up his legs? hahahahahaa
It would be nice to see a calculation comparison between this new system, the old system and a borehole ground source system
That poor bloke , he only wants a warm house !
The customer should Eff Roger off ….& give me £30,000 I’d sort it much faster
Heat pump vs Immersion*
*assuming competitive overnight Tariff
Expensive experiment and not one that is convincing me that this is ready for the UK mass market
@@Liverpool1ne heating system for the rich ….& one for the plebs like me
"Saving the planet" init 😂
@@ianpuddick Okay I'll bite - I'm curious. Let's assume the tariff is Octopus Go (We'll ignore the EV requirement) which for our area is 31.41p/kWh in the day and 9p/kWh for 4 hours overnight - For reference the standard variable Octopus rate right now is 27p/kWh so let's ignore that we're comparing to a COP of 3 and continue anyway - Let's also assume that the electricity connection is as large as required, we'll pay for three-phase if needed.
That is a big old house, so to take advantage of the off-peak rate you need to store the entire day's heating energy (For a design temperature of -2C) and you'll need to be able to recharge it within that four-hour period.
How big of a thermal store are you installing? Where would you put it? How would you insulate it?
This was an interesting conversation to listen to but shows everything that is wrong with heat pumps or the installation off. These, compared to gas oil whatever require a very lot of technical experience to get right. Most installers are thick as mince and not up to doing this job correctly and no amount of training will significantly alter that so for the good guys working for people with money there will be a lot of work. For others they will be paid to fk things up but they made their wages and don't have to pay the bills. This is an impossibility for the masses and some one in power needs to recognise that.
I’m enjoying your videos and would you believe, that as a plumber, heating installer, gas fitter I’m actually learning things. That’s after 59 years on the tools!
Not fully in agreement with everything your saying though.
Cheers Wok the plumber.
Hi Robert
Good to hear from you. I think we all carry on learning, I certainly do and it is one of life's great pleasures. I am very happy that you disagree with me on a number of things, I get very apprehensive when people say they agree with me 100%.
Is there any way of getting in touch with Adam? I’m having a nightmare with an installation and have a couple of questions, thanks.
Unfortunately adam can’t give out case by case help due to the insane demand that would create. We do have a solution though - type in ‘find a heat geek’ in to google and look on the map for your most local fully trained engineer
For maximum efficiency you need to have the whole house at the same temperature?
Not necessarily. Bedrooms can usually be several degrees cooler than sitting rooms, bathrooms and kitchens. Just adjust your TRVs.
My understanding is that running a typical heatpump would triple my annual electricity use. Given the price of electricity i suspect this would be a very significant increase in costs on top of the installation. I only use my gas for 3 months of the year and before the energy inflation my G+E were 720/year.
I cant imagine forking out for a heat pump on an old terraced property with no suitable location to easily put on, would make any sense at all unless electricity costs come down, but all indications are they plan to just make it more and more expensive.
It does seem to be counter-productive to try and push people towards electricity usage at the same time as it is rising in price, most people won't be able to afford to run them! Add to the fact majority of the UK is in a cost of living crisis and it all points to it not getting better in the future, even thinking of getting rooftop solar is out of the realm of possibility (they can't afford it!) before some wise guy tries to add that as a cost saver.
Average price of gas in the UK is 7.42 p for kWh, average price of electricity is at 28.62 p for kWh.
So against a condensing boiler you need your heat pump to reach 3.8 CoP to be cheaper per kWh of heat produced. ~3.0 for an older non-condensing boiler.
There are additional savings that could be had with a time of use tariff and being able to drop the standing charge for a gas connection.
In my personal case my heat pump is just below the efficiency that would make it cheaper than gas. But that is more than made up by the fact that I can use a lot more of the energy generated by my rooftop solar domestically from March to October. If you have/plan to have rooftop solar, moving your cooking and heating to electricity would have additional benefits, since the you'll get a bare fraction of a what you pay for a kWh of electricity for feeding power back into the grid. My neck of the woods has a guaranteed feed-in price, but one that is at around 1/4 of my electricity cost. With some clever scheduling we get all of our domestic water heating and house cooling covered by solar power in summer.
@@miken3963 Well, i barely use any gas in summer, just for hot water which really is nothing. Pay pennies above the standing charge. If i added solar, (perfect south facing roof) im sure it would cover most of my energy use in summer sans the heat pump. I have a large south facing garden that would be ideal for ground source but id still have nowhere to put a heat exchanger without knocking down a conservatory or putting it on the front of the terrace which would be awful.
All in all, its a lot of resources, infrastructure and cost to warm a single person living in a 3 bed terrace who already had a pretty tiny carbon footprint.
@@Etacovda63 I use a lot of gas for a very short period. Im working or sleeping most of the day, but when im home in winter, the heatings on and the house is warm in 20 minutes.
No point asking me to spend thousands to have a lukewarm house and an immersion heater. I will be violently opposed to that.
It is the case that the retail price of electricity is tied to the most expensive generation method. Since the efficiency of using gas to generate electricity is around 65% I would expect the price of electricity per kwh should be no more than twice the price of gas. Considering that renewables now make up a third or so of our electricity supply and are the cheapest, we are being right royally ripped off somewhere along the way@@makcity7850
Every installations different... fit Rogers external heat pump unit inside the bedroom 😃
Why no mention of costs by heat geeks in summer by different methods?
Guys.. any comments on how this might work in the woods in Poland? We've been hitting -15 to -25c in the last few winters. Can heat pumps be any use here?
They seem to work OK in Norway and Sweden. I think what these videos show is that the technology is less important than an experienced installer.
It has been the main source used to heat for the last 20+ years in the Finland, Norway, Sweden where distric heating isn't available. Started to be used in the early 90s.
Most major brands are: Bosch, Ivt, Nibe, Thermia (in no particular order, some seam to favour Nibe). Life expectancy is around 25 years on the compressor (but if we take it no the technology has moved so much futher that energy savings are quite high on a new iverter pump compared to a 2000 model on/off.
Air to water, ground to water (where you dig in the pipe in a loop if you got the land to do it) or geothermal where you drill a hole straight down to the ground.
I think gas/oil/lpg heating systems can be just as complicated and inefficient (just look at all the "heating system never worked" videos out there). Gas systems have the advantage of over power and cheap(er) fuel, just bung 70° water round, who cares how (in)efficient the system is. Until the prices jump and suddenly they do care.
That's more the system design and installation rather than the product.
@@paul756uk2 but that's exactly the same argument for heat pumps though. I'd say that the cost of inefficiency is far lower for gas, resulting in a lot of "user error". I've been in many homes where radiators are too hot to touch in order to "heat a room quickly".
This is why (at least for me) SCOP can be misleading. Tell me I've a SCOP over winter where the temperature has varied between -3 and 11 degrees up and down in our mental climate. Fine. We do well when its mild. But I *want* to know how it does when its *not* mild and when the energy draw is highest. Telling me I get 4.5:1 when I'm drawing 300 watts doesn't matter if I'm getting 2:1 drawing 5kw.
I agree, the SCOP is a fudge. Give us a snapshot on a cold evening.
It's weighted towards winter. Basically, annual heat output divided by annual electrical consumption for a particular climate. Many of the installs that use heatpumpmonitor, have found the SCOPs provided by the manufacturer have been matched or beaten.
If you want the detail, you can probably ask the manufacturer for it, as they need to know the COPs at certain temperatures to be able to derive the SCOP. But for many, the SCOP over the year is more valuable.
As Ben said. It accounts for the added energy use in winter. It’s not averaged per day. It’s the total amount of heat used divided by the total electricity used throughout the year.
So ? how do you heat a block of Flat's
What does that thing with cap look like.
a plumber
Just how much is all of this going to cost?