Great to see Roger and Adam working together and sharing knowledge. Nice to see John taking an interest and genuinely wanting to improve the efficiency of his home.
@@richardwaller7721 when I first saw the Heat Geeks had picked up Roger's Rant video about heat pumps, I thought put the two of them together and they'll make magic happen. Both so knowledgeable and passionate about design and construction and great presenters of information.
I really like this video (having watched the outcome) and seeing how sceptical the home owner and Roger were beforehand. I have to give it to Roger he has acted with a lot of humility since and has been happy to admit he was somewhat wrong and has seemingly learnt a lot from the heat geeks.
The most informative discussion thread on heat pumps ever! Practical problems and effective solutions. (a.k.a. Engineering). Impressed by John's stoic perseverance! Roll on the post-installation review...
Really - when please tell was an energy loss calculation ever done for a boiler install? - never! It was basically rules of thumb. this did morph over time to sizing the rads for a room, then adding the totals to get to a boiler size, which in a properly sized installation should factor in time of day etc. As for running a property at a constant temp 24hrs per day, with the exception of a thermal mass UFH solution will always prove to waste energy, a set back temperature targeted at closing the gap between outside and inside when the house is unoccupied will in the long run save energy, combined with a timer to enable setback 30mins before departure and 30mins prior to comfort being desirable. The biggest energy saver - minimise use of external doors, keep internal doors closed with rad stats set for each rooms comfort temp none of those habits change with a HP.@@normanboyes4983
These videos are very refreshing and allow home owners to gauge the practicalities of Heat Pump installs, well done guys and thanks to John for welcoming the camera into his house 👍
Heat Geeks are going to guarantee the system is cheaper to run than gas and put a live on line monitor up so we can all see. For John the risk is small. This is the only way to go when buying a heat pump. It is not right that the public have to shell out for a system that may or may not work. Where else would you get that kind of deal. If it isn't fit for purpose the consumer should have protection.
@@SkillBuilder Yes there definitely needs to be some sort of consumer protection. It is interesting that on the app Heat Geek/Tom Plumb used there is an evidence trail (photos, room dimension scans). I hope that this evidence trail is also taken on the installation work (show the components/pipes/joins/insulation); lots of grant installs look to be sub-optimal, and we're not talking a small amount of government (i.e. our) money being granted for such upgrades.
It's a shame the comparison isn't being done with a weather compensator and "proper install/commissioning" of the existing gas system, under under this conditions I very much doubt the HP would come in cheaper to run on comparable comfort basis. That would then contribute to a massive CO2 saving, a real costs saving annually, and negate the high migration costs to a HP solution.That would be the appropriate benchmark.@@SkillBuilder
love this cooperation between skillbuilders and heat geek, and nice to see this series to see how this problem is being solved. also learning a lot about insolation, and other pre work that is needed before going to a heat pump
Glad that people like this are willing to try out the technology on behalf of the rest of us but it does seem crazy complicated and the customer appears rather affluent so perhaps not representative of your average UK homeowner (no disrespect intended).
If the house is warm and you know the average internal temp and the external temp, why not check the heat input via a strap on heat meter on the existing F&R, better than any calculation or at least you can check the theoretical calcs
Great points on ventilation. Our renovation project had terrible ventilation and mould problems. We have installed MVHR with Lindab but are now trying to ensure we are airtight enough that we are not then pulling in cold air.
I'm afraid seeking air tightness on a renovation anything over, roughly, 50 years old is a fools errand. Your house loves cold air. Houses built before the mid to late 20th century had a custom designed ventilation system, called a fireplace and draughty windows. Light the fire, it drew fresh air in from the draughty doors/windows, which circulated around the house, taking the moisture laden air from rooms out and sent them up the chimney. That natural air circulation drew vast amounts of air through the house which, to maintain a similar level of airflow will today, require vast amounts of electricity. We have just completely renovated and extended our 9" solid masonry, Victorian cottage (Lime mortar, naturally) which was complicated by a 1970's rescue project from demolition, adding a Portland cement render which frustrates the buildings natural breathing abilities. Our simple and cheap MVHR solution was to keep the original draughty front windows (we had to because the house is listed) and work with the natural design of the house by installing a loft ventilation unit that essentially mimics a chimney, but in reverse, which works with the draughty windows and doors (we replaced all the doors but ensured they were draughty) to push air down through the house and out through the draught gaps in the windows. We keep vents cracked open in the modern part of the building to mimic the old part of the building. We run a gas boiler as no one could figure out a way to make a heat pump work better than the system I designed. The ground source heat pump we were quoted for was 20,000+. To pay back the capital cost alone, far less the running cost, would take us ten years compared to our current system. I hate to say it but you have been led up the garden path by stupid politicians and predatory businesses determined to extract as much money from you as they can. Will this save us all from CO2 extinction? If you can find one single, credible, empirical, replicable, scientific study which demonstrates atmospheric CO2 causes the world to warm, please let me know because I have spent 20 years searching for it and as far as I'm aware, none exist, although hundreds of millions of £$ have been spent trying.
Shouldn’t a well commissioned system (balanced) extract the same amount as it supplies? How would that lead to a negative pressure differential that would pull cold air in? Genuine question, I am no expert
For this reason your supply fans should always be a little higher than the extract side. This way you slightly pressurise the house to achieve a positive pressure rather than a negative pressure.
Hi Hans, I will have to ask the person who will do the commissioning. The levels of extraction and I assume fresh air can be adjusted in the rooms by adjusting the vent, then the fan speeds can also be adjusted. I will have 4 extraction points and 7 input points. Not sure if that balances fully, it will be interesting to see. @@hans.vbaalen
in regard to the situation with the loft insulation, consider this. if the homeowner were toinstall three inch sheets of hard foam on the floor, caulking with foam between the seams and edges he will be able to achieve an extremely high r rating and virtually no mess or demolition. here in the u.s. if one goes to a mall or other large commercial roof job the contractors remove sheets of the material which also has been treated with a pesticide already and it goes to landfills. we have approached job foreman and asked for their waste and they are more than happy to give it to us because they pay to dispose of it. we load a rental truck and repurpose the material in the home. now we solved two problems for cheap and it can actually be fun to do. the sheets are generally 4x8 sheets and are very lightweight. a case of dark beer is always a good swap.
A great video and it’s good to see SkillBuilder teaming up with Heat Geeks on this topic. A couple of points to mention. The mantra of the Retrofit industry is Fabric First. In other words, address the heat losses from your home before installing a heat pump or other renewables. If you insulated the loft space and draught proofed windows and doors first you could down size the heat pump by several kW as I think Adam mentioned. Also, I couldn’t help noticing that during the heat loss calculations Adam seemed to suggest that the wall adjacent to the garage could be treated as a Party wall. This isn’t standard practice unless the garage is heated and airtight. Finally, regarding uncontrolled ventilation, Adam’s comment about the air changes per hour (ACH) being less than 1 seems unlikely in a property of this age and size. In the absence of a door blower test, it would be risky to assume such a low figure.
Gotta feel for John, what a carry on , I hope it works out. Cant believe he wasn't told to get his loft insulation sorted before the original installation.
Funny all the comments saying this looks far too involved. This is what properly sizing up your heating system looks like. It looks weird because no one ever does it. This house has been one bodge job on top of another for decades. The heat pump didn't cause the problems, it revealed them
There are a number of relatively easy to use home (web browser) heat assessment packages such as HeatPunk to allow you to throw in your floor plan (estate agent quality is suffice), where the radiators are, and out pops an assessment. refine as needed. Quite insightful as to where the losses are.
What’s the point in it though, if I can get a gas combo boiler and don’t require a water tank, then what benefit is there having a heat pump? You’re essentially sacrificing space for water tank heating up water and not using all that is required along with the humongous sized radiators. Not to mention the humongous eye sore that is the heat pump itself. Gas is wayyy cheaper than electric too.
@@kevinconnell8422 you are fighting the wrong battle there. The real argument is between a well insulated, comfy all round house and a "heated in bursts" house. Note that they aren't direct opposites, which is why the arguments get heated (sic).
Nice survey, interested to see the heat loss difference on the conservatory? Also will need to check R290 heat pumps going to a rainwater drain!! Follow Vaillant spec and do a soakaway😊
Really enjoying the heat pump series. I am in Canada where my winter lows can be minus 25c, summer highs 30+c, hoping you might have a reference to that at some point?
This is so helpful - question though, how do you ensure that your contractor will install a heat pump properly particularly if you are applying through the ECO4 scheme? Companies seem quite pushy and then I immediately don't trust them to do a professional job!
Could I put in a request please - that if you make a video about the install, show us how you equalise the flow rates on both sides of the buffer. This will be really useful for installers who are including a buffer and also want to do the right thing of not pushing up the customer's energy bills as a result. THANKS!!
I think you need to do a video on the cost to maintain the heat pump, depending on the amount and refrigerant type may be subject fgas regulation leak check along side a yearly service. we already know their is limited engineers that can install these, there will be even less that have the experience and qualifications that can work on the fridge side. other things to consider is response times for call outs on the fridge side if the plumber that has installed it can not rectify the fault and has to wait for a qualified engineer or the manufactures. Warranty length is also crucial on these, as being an AC engineer in the trade for 25 years i know exactly how much things like pressure leak tests are for lost refrigerant, inverter compressor and PCB’s are to change once out of warranty and it’s not cheap, it will make people’s eye water. This is not a criticism as our industry has been using air to air & water heat pumps for decades in commercial properties with great success, but we need to discuss all aspects if people are installing these in their homes.
These ones (and most of the monoblock ones going in the UK) don't fall under F-Gas - They are R290, and the refrigerant is hermetically sealed at the factory. The units can be (and already have been in a few cases) DIY installed without any knowledge of the refrigeration circuit. The only bits that need any sort of qualification, are gas boiler removal, and if the cylinder needs changing from vented to unvented. The Vaillant ones get a 7-year warranty if installed by a Vaillant partner.
A typical family that I’m used to deal with has a very fixed disposable income to pay for things such as boiler breakdowns or worse replacement. There’s normally not very much room in the properties I work in. What is the smallest room you would be able to install everything needed in and what would be a typical cost of installation assuming rad sizes, insulation etc are adequate.
All very good comments. My issue is the industry is plagued with parts that are the same but (on purpose) slightly different, so that there is little interchangeability. This is good for manufacturers but terrible for the environment.
Ref: Sitting room radiator/poor temps. The position of the radiator next to the door to the hall way containing stairs to the first floor (?) will not help the movement of heat across/into the room - most will be drawn upstairs to the first floor ? Old looking door/windows (albeit opening to an (unheated) conservatory) is likely to further exacerbate the problem ? Minor point but relevent to a particular problem. .
So if I change to a heat pump and get an electric car (or 2) and want to charge them at same time I will also have to pay electricity company to increase my main power feed to the house? As at the moment even when I switch the shower on the voltage drops coming into my house - what is the average wattage of a heat pump ie what it draws from my home electricity supply?
The 12 kw heat pump working at a COP of 4 is going to take 3kw but might have a start up surge. I would say 4 is optomistic and on a cold night you might be putting 6kw into the heat pump at the same time you are pulliing 7kw out for your car charger. Just don't put your kettle on.
Yes he was told his was the biggest domestic heat pump. So if it needs to be increased or he puts too many appliances on he will need a three phase supply. £££££££
Load monitoring on the EV charger (via a CT lead) will take care of that. It will only ramp up to full power when the supply has the capacity (you set the supply capacity at install)
Ive been following all of this from the start it’s very interesting but…. What…. A…..enormous……faff I am confident Heat Geek knows his stuff and will get this long suffering home owner a good result. Is this level of care and expertise likely to materialise en masse rolled out all over the land? I’m not confident tbh even after recruitment and training There’s got to be a simpler way. That said, I don’t have the answers…..
Every radiator I attend where it has been piped top to bottom has cold patches . Is this because the flow is round the wrong way or modern rads just can’t work like this. I thought they piped at top so older people don’t have to bend down to adjust trv..
If cold patches then either blockages in the rad or flow the wrong way around. You get about 5% better efficiency tboe compared to both bottom, and lose another 5% if bottom to top opposite ends. The convenience is a bonus, but its a bit like the way that electric sockets these days are placed higher for access rather than floor level as they used to be.
Sorry if this is mentioned in the video and I’ve missed it, but do you mention the size of Heat Pump you recommend for this particular property and heat loss?
Great to see everyone together, but I’m a little confused. If the heat pump and the radiators were already sized correctly then what needs to be changed to fix this install? Was it the buffer tank or the pipe work in between ?
If the customer has a smart meter and you have weather data can you just use the data from the gas meter to determine heat loss? For instance pick a day where the outside temperature is -2c say the house used 130kWh of gas, divide by 24 = kW used to maintain that temp = heat loss? in this example 5.4kW
Protons For Breakfast has a video that suggests a rule of thumb of annual gas usage in kWh / 2900 to give you the heat pump size required (south of Manchester). ruclips.net/video/hCeghKa3liM/видео.html
At least these videos show you cannot just graft a heat pump onto an existing system without first going through a detailed survey. Most of the adverts I see don't make this very clear.
But what about the problems with radiator under performance often between 25 to 38% under supposed rating. With a boiler this can be compensated for to some degree. If you live in the country you have a limited public supply to many villages which cannot compensate for the increase in consumption. A local neighbour was told the new supply would cost £146, 000. He purchased a PV array because he owned the adjacent field. This is not viable for many.
and we wonder why heat pumps are installed and dont work. honestly most companies making a quick book on these things are no way doing all this to find out exactly what people need and then installing it proeply and i understand this guy will do it right but imagine what mosts peoples experience of getting one of these is, i imagine is more akin to the original homeowners install a bodge job as the installers wont want to take the time to do it right
This was interesting, particularly as my energy supplier has teamed up with Heat Geeks for the former's imminent supply and installation service for ASHPs. Roger, is there any possibility of some content about high-temperature ASHPs that, allegedly, do not require such invasive and expensive home alterations?
The extraction/air change problem need 're-framing' as being about selecting which air is the air that you preferentially want to release to the external environment (extract), given that the incoming air is coming in through leaks & gaps whether you like it or not. Thus it's far more advantageous to 'exhale' the damp air from the house (at source) than letting warm dry air go to waste. Suck that moist air out! It's all about the bad mental models. Reminds me of the days when you/granny shut doors to keep the cold out, rather than keeping the heat in!
Why are panel radiators so ugly? I love the look of the old column ones even if they are more clunky. What makes them more efficient? Is it because the surface area is less than the old pipe style?
They are more efficient because they have a far greater surface area and the corrugated convectors also help to spread heat. A large surface area allows a lower flow temperature and the COP of a heat pump will be higher with a lower flow temperature.
@@rogerphelps9939 thanks for the explanation! Physics is not my thing at all! I was confused whether it was better to spread heat to the room quickly or to maintain the heat in the water by having less surface temperature! So, I'm guessing that the water might need to be pumped round quicker with a lower temperature? Or maybe because the heating is on all the time, and there is good insulation, the water doesn't lose heat so quickly?
Paul weaton has just done a video of heat pumps against rocket mass heaters ..... permaculture design is the only way forward and it's a finger up to the man in every single way
Unfortunately you can't put them in a new build though, it'd not pass regs. Also, an entirely different type of heat. Possibly not for the modern human lifestyle either. I'd like a rocket mass heater though, so I'll check out Paul's video. The best part, for me, is that it's an incredibly simple technology that you can build and maintain on your own. It requires no app, survey or specialism. I believe that will become more important in the coming decades.
@@deanchapple1that's debatable as gas is 4x cheaper than electric & modern boilers run @ 95% efficiency which means this system would need to run at 360%!! That's without factoring in the massive initial cost of the asap compared to a relatively inexpensive boiler
@@Reakerboy It's not about pay back not everything has a payback your car isn't about payback a holiday isn't about payback. It's what you gain from them in other aspects. Heat pumps are about improved environmental benefits or efficiency plus comfort of a constantly warm house 24/7 for the same or less than gas.
@@Burtis89 It’s a fair question, is this expensive? What is the pay back time vs fixing the boiler? What if we increased the thermal efficiency of the house but fixed the boiler? Does it get very very cold here? In which case is there a solid or liquid fuel back up for emergencies. It’s pretty much always cheaper and better for the environment to fix your old car, you can add all sorts of tech to it, same for housss, this is just an upgrade on the house so what’s the payoff? It could be instant in terms of value add to the house.
If you did all the insulation etc beforehand surely that would make a gas boiler even cheaper to run so I would have thought the heat pump savings are not genuine
The heat loss of a property does not know or care about what your source of heat energy is. So insulation reduces heat loss no matter how you heat your house.
@@normanboyes4983 so any savings by selecting a heat pump should be measured on a like for like basis once insulation has been done. Then including the capital cost and return. All you learn is that proper insulation is the answer rather than gambling on a system that may or not work. As with electric cars I'm not convinced but open minded. What I object to is government and big business telling me how to spend my money and dictating what I can have. At the end of the day market forces will decide rather than I'll thought out dictacts.
Love this content, all very interesting. Would love to know how a heat pump would work in our 1930s house... Where all the kit would go, tank, outside unit... Would radiators need changing... Would our house even benefit from one... Not that I want one 😂.
Yes you can do a 1930s house with a heat pump. But there are a lot of details. If you change the radiators it will run cheaper than a gas boiler, especially if you take floor heating. But then the whole operation might become too expensive. You might want to look into air to air heatpumps (aircon) if they match the power needed. Might be a cheaper option.
If the rad is piped bottom-to-top, the flow should go IN on the bottom and OUT on the top, else the waterfall effect will only heat around half of the volume.
1:45 He says 0.5-0.7 air-changes per hour is 'more accurate' (then 1-2). 1 air-change per hour is passivehouse grade (well EnerPhit, passivehouse is 0.6). A really well-airtighted retrofitted house is in the 1-3 range. Most UK houses are 5-10. Some are 20. Ah - I get it. I'm talking about the test ratings at 50Pa - he's talking about average air-changes all the time - which is typically reckoned to be about 10% of the test rating. So yeah - that's about right.
All true as to the expertise - terribly complicated though. At home - in my youth - we had a coal fire - we put more coal on if it was cold and let it die down if it was too warm. Don't remember anything else involved really and all was fine. Heating was much, much cheaper then too oddly enough.
It wasn't fine. Most of the heat went up the chimney. It was extremely hot just in front of the fire and very cold in the rest of the house. Furthermore my mother was up every morning at 6am cleaning out the grate and getting a new fire going. Filthu work and very bad for your lungs.
@@pauldavies7251 I don’t remember saying that. Reducing the carbon and other emissions from everything humans do in all areas of the world gives us the best chance of arresting climate change, yes. No one thing can do enough on its own, everything has to improve - including how we heat our homes. Obviously if you don’t accept climate change is real and caused by human activity then you won’t accept that…….
A crazy amount of time taken to work this all out properly. Just for the customer to decide you're too expensive and goes with the guy who just guesses 🙄
My heat pump was installed with RHI subsidy. Installers under that scheme were obiged to use a standard heat loss calculation app. It really is not rocket science.
Rodger, I live in a small 1 bedroom flat in a old 6 block building. My boiler doesn’t cost much to run and I am so happy about it. The day they will oblige me to get rid of it, I will put electric radiators but never ever a heat pump. That’s what this video made me think. If they wanted to sell me the heat pump idea they miserably failed. Totally agree with you!
@@rogerphelps9939how do you suppose he insulates a flat in a 6 storey building?? Without adequate insulation ashp are useless & extremely expensive, He'd never get a return on his cash outlay. They don't suit everyone & every home in the UK just like electric cars dont
Why not just go for an air to air heat pump then? This way you won’t have to deal with radiators or hydraulics and will get around 3-5 times more heat out of the same amount of electricity. As a bonus you also have an AC in the summer because this is what an air to air heat pump basically is
@@pauldavies7251 exactly. And if you have a perfectly insulated Norwegian house you can heat it with a lighter. I don’t know why they always compare non insulated houses with combi boiler and heat pumps in perfectly insulated houses. + heat pump is on all year long. I have been away for 1 week and my boiler was off. + in Scotland you don’t really need cold air in the summer, we just open the window! Thanks for understanding
@@294nduswb I would consider it for sure, thanks for the tip, but the fan may be noisy and I could only put it straight outside the window, on the back, where the bedrooms are; neighbours probably would not be that happy. God save my boiler 😀
How important is the number of occupants - after all the number does change over the years - it would seem odd to have to change hardware just because of that?
Mould discussion, with all the control systems installed with heat pumps, cant the system measure the RH with a £2 sensor and open a vent or turn on a fan or dehumidifier to control?
Agreed. Given the fact that to get the most from these heat pumps, there's a lot of smart tech involved in the whole process, it seems sensible to just smarten up some sort of humidity control
wouldn’t it be easier and quicker to heat the house to a known temperature, then measure the heat decay overnight (with heating off) against outside ambient (i cant work out the formula to do so, but i have all the sensors)
I would need a good few grand in prior works before considering a heat pump. House is full of air leaks. Not least is that the loft insulation folks vented the upper attic, but didn't seal the dormer nested within it. So bedroom wall and living room cieling are exposed to the near outside temp with 0 insulation. Some rooms are not worth trying to heat, depending on the wind direction and outside temp. 20*C when it's 2*C outside? Not a chance in hell, even with a 30kW boiler on full tilt and the loop temp set to 80C.
Will be interested in seeing measured performance of the heat pump to show the actual efficiency (COP) and then compare with manufacturer’s data. At the moment the cost per KWhr of electricity to run the heat pump is say 30 p while the cost per KWhr for my super efficient oil fired boiler is 10 p. So we need a COP of 3 to break even. You should get a COP of 3 in the summer when you only need heat for hot water but in freezing winter you will be around a COP of 1 just when you need a load of heat to heat the house! So 3 times the cost of my oil boiler. Staying with oil and changing to the green HVO oil when it is domestically available at a reasonable price.
You can see operating systems measured on OpenEnergy that are in the range of 350-500%. If making up numbers makes you feel better, it's a free country.
We have a 5kW heat pump in our annexe, on the 18th of Jan when the outdoor temperature dropped to -6C for most of the day (And 0C for the rest), the heat pump maintained a COP of about 3 for both heating and DHW during the entire day. We currently pay 27p/kWh with Octopus and we last paid 66p/l for oil (In December, we use oil for the main house) which puts the break-even SCOP at 3.38. (Assuming a boiler efficiency of 80%) Considering the heat pump was running at around the break-even point for oil during the -6C period, over the year the heat pump should work out to be far more efficient. (The total average heating COP is 3.9 and the total average DHW COP is 3.2, for the three and a half months we've had the heat pump)
Hard to believe the first contractors fitted a new system and didn’t ensure the attic was properly insulated. That has been a basic requirement for over 50 years.
There should be a legal cover for heat pump installations to be 8 years with insurance companies covering it in case of the company going bust it’s totally unacceptable that a poor install like this be allow in a way like housing inspection I want the equivalent for heat pumps installed and installers covered by a system such as gas safe registered but for heat pumps yo be mandatory
They have a big motor in them that can draw a lot of amps as it starts up unless the heatpump is controlled by a VFD or, at a minimum, has a soft starter for the motor.
Can't understand. Heat loss of 12.97kw and a heat pump of 12kw. ??? Also the 12kw is an estimated average over a year, that could be 18kw in summer or 6kw in winter when 0C. How can that work in winter ? 12.97kw heat loss and heat going in is only 6kw ?
If you have an existing system, can't you use the current heat needs? I would at least use it to check the calculated need. How much gas did you use in January? End of analysis.
I have been following this series of videos from the start and it’s interesting But I can’t help getting an overal feeling of What….a…. Faff. I am sure Heat Geek will get this gent a result due to their competence and care in this case. But I cannot invisage a day when this will be able to be rolled out en masse country wide given the level of complexity and the expertise and care needed, also knowing human nature (both contractors and householders) There has to be a simpler way. But, that said, I don’t know what that is…..
Hi Mark The simpler way exists, it is a gas boiler which modulates and suits all home. If you want to reduce CO2 a hybrid heat pump/boiler will do it and it will work in any weather in any home. I have always said that if any product is so critical that it requires a high degree of skill and knowledge to install it, then it has no place in the building industry because it just won't happen. The product needs to be plug and play.
Far to complicated everyone looks stressed lol....stick with a traditional combi and an air to air heat pump in the most used rooms ie living room and bedroom. Much cheaper and easier to maintain also, best of both worlds
nothing traditional about a combi. In fact if Skillbuilder was around back then he’d probably be making videos about all the faff pulling out your tanks from the loft and repiping to fit a combi :P
The noise pollution with these things are a real problem. As soon as the outdoor temp gets close to freezing they are much more noisy. 45 to 50 db constant. And much more if it gets colder. The sound of the compressor travels through the construction of the house.. and the nabours house...
They aren't the loud my mum has one cheaper to run no but she's in a no gas village so cheaper than oil or electric heating but it's definitely not noisy she sleeps with her window open. Council bungalow and every single one has a heat pump and they are fine.
I have one outside the window right at this moment of writing. It's -22,3c outisde and even with the window open I can't really hear it. So noisy?? It really is funny how tech that's been the norm for 20+ years here is handled in a climate where it should work wonders if you only understood to insulate your houses.
23:00 That new heat-pump do they really wanna install it so close to the fence and the neighbor's property ? The neighbor isn't getting any benefit from this heat-pump, so the neighbor should not be given the disadvantages either, like the cold air that comes out of the heat-pump and the terrible noise. Why not install it in the middle of John's property ?
The problem is that even these experts? Don't seem certain. Every so called plumber/heating engineer (extremely questionable) told me that the heating system i was building would not work. It's funny it's been working for 30 years & is up gradable to have heat dumps for solar/wind energy & it has no pump & requires no electricity. I as a engineer & i know a designer of industrial heat exchangers we don't like this system if i had a choice i would have electric storage heaters( under floor). I grew up with storage heaters in a 2 up 2 down & thay are great. My current 30 year old system maintains 25c all winter & running hot water no problem despite the alleged experts. I have studied the Victorian heating systems that just work but require thought & engineering instead of just put a bigger electric pump in & hope.
By any chance does anyone know if Tom Plumb has had a tattoo done on his behind of the Tom Plumb Tap Logo and phone number, if anyone knows could they please put it in the comments, many thanks..
Don't you have make it perfectly clear what your assumptions are? Whilst the heat loss is for sizing of the heat pump, however in this modern day and age you should define where the energy is coming from and at what cost, before then designing the system. The variation in cost from house to house can tend one to prefer a hybrid system.
Kitchen functional, a car if it earns you a living all payback. This is a pipe dream for a lot of people, a luxury they cannot afford without major investment from taxpayers. @@simonm9923
@@ricos1497 my point is no one asks what the payback will be on most things you buy, like a new car or a big new telly but when it’s something like a heat pump or an EV or loft insulation or solar panels that’s the first question that comes up. Spend your money how you want, why do you need to question / justify it?
@@simonm9923 I know, I was just being cheeky. Although I suspect the answer is fairly obvious. Kitchens and cars are material objects as well as functional tools. Nobody is buying a heat pump to satiate their ego (some might be!). I looked at the efficiency of my tumble dryer when buying a new one, and calculated the rough saving over a cheaper model, and I suspect folk do it on other purchases. However, a lot goes down to messaging and, indeed, the subsidies. The message has always been "buy worse technology. It's shitter than your gas boiler, and more expensive, but you have to do it to save the planet. Plus, we'll give you a grand". If they'd just used the time tested model of propaganda and marketing we wouldn't be having this discussion. I was working in Norway a few years back and my colleagues couldn't believe I had a new(ish) house with an oil boiler. They thought it was some old fashioned, backward technology. If we'd just marketed heat pumps as amazing new technology and thrown a bunch of celebrities, hanging off radiators in their pants at it, we'd have sold millions by now.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Great to see Roger and Adam working together and sharing knowledge. Nice to see John taking an interest and genuinely wanting to improve the efficiency of his home.
My thoughts exactly…
@@richardwaller7721 when I first saw the Heat Geeks had picked up Roger's Rant video about heat pumps, I thought put the two of them together and they'll make magic happen. Both so knowledgeable and passionate about design and construction and great presenters of information.
I really like this video (having watched the outcome) and seeing how sceptical the home owner and Roger were beforehand. I have to give it to Roger he has acted with a lot of humility since and has been happy to admit he was somewhat wrong and has seemingly learnt a lot from the heat geeks.
Great effort guys just wish this level of competence was the norm
It is if you employ a HeatGeek engineer. 👌🏼😁
Withe the best will in the world, people like HeatGeek are few and far between, and always will be.@@deanchapple1
@@deanchapple1
So the cost
You pay for a quote around £350
@@topgazzaI suppose you get what you pay for. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
@@topgazzaHow many hours a week do you work for free.
I had a Heat Loss survey done last month using the new software. Very impressive! My installation commences in 10 days!
Let us know how it goes
What's the cost of installation?
@@pauldavies7251 £6.4k after the grant. That’s for 6kW Vaillant, 300ltr Cylinder and 3 radiator upgrades.
@@pauldavies7251 Did you get an idea of cost , interested in the cost myself..??
You are going to be very disappointed with a heat pump but good luck
The most informative discussion thread on heat pumps ever! Practical problems and effective solutions. (a.k.a. Engineering). Impressed by John's stoic perseverance! Roll on the post-installation review...
@JamesKing-ev1wcNot over engineering at all just some simple pipe sizing calculations.
Really - when please tell was an energy loss calculation ever done for a boiler install? - never! It was basically rules of thumb. this did morph over time to sizing the rads for a room, then adding the totals to get to a boiler size, which in a properly sized installation should factor in time of day etc. As for running a property at a constant temp 24hrs per day, with the exception of a thermal mass UFH solution will always prove to waste energy, a set back temperature targeted at closing the gap between outside and inside when the house is unoccupied will in the long run save energy, combined with a timer to enable setback 30mins before departure and 30mins prior to comfort being desirable. The biggest energy saver - minimise use of external doors, keep internal doors closed with rad stats set for each rooms comfort temp none of those habits change with a HP.@@normanboyes4983
These videos are very refreshing and allow home owners to gauge the practicalities of Heat Pump installs, well done guys and thanks to John for welcoming the camera into his house 👍
Love Roger Bisby - a brilliant tradesman, very knowledgeable, particularly with Gas installations, an honest and thorough man, Keep it up Roger!
Well done to John for giving heat pumps another go. Great to see Heat Geeks are making life easier for their installers. Good luck with the install!
Heat Geeks are going to guarantee the system is cheaper to run than gas and put a live on line monitor up so we can all see. For John the risk is small. This is the only way to go when buying a heat pump. It is not right that the public have to shell out for a system that may or may not work. Where else would you get that kind of deal. If it isn't fit for purpose the consumer should have protection.
@@SkillBuilder Yes there definitely needs to be some sort of consumer protection.
It is interesting that on the app Heat Geek/Tom Plumb used there is an evidence trail (photos, room dimension scans). I hope that this evidence trail is also taken on the installation work (show the components/pipes/joins/insulation); lots of grant installs look to be sub-optimal, and we're not talking a small amount of government (i.e. our) money being granted for such upgrades.
It's a shame the comparison isn't being done with a weather compensator and "proper install/commissioning" of the existing gas system, under under this conditions I very much doubt the HP would come in cheaper to run on comparable comfort basis. That would then contribute to a massive CO2 saving, a real costs saving annually, and negate the high migration costs to a HP solution.That would be the appropriate benchmark.@@SkillBuilder
love this cooperation between skillbuilders and heat geek, and nice to see this series to see how this problem is being solved.
also learning a lot about insolation, and other pre work that is needed before going to a heat pump
Watching with interest, heat geeks are putting their reputation on the line here, who knows they may win me over.
Glad that people like this are willing to try out the technology on behalf of the rest of us but it does seem crazy complicated and the customer appears rather affluent so perhaps not representative of your average UK homeowner (no disrespect intended).
If the house is warm and you know the average internal temp and the external temp, why not check the heat input via a strap on heat meter on the existing F&R, better than any calculation or at least you can check the theoretical calcs
Excellent informative presentation.
If you are thinking of installing a heat pump this is a must-watch video.
Great points on ventilation. Our renovation project had terrible ventilation and mould problems. We have installed MVHR with Lindab but are now trying to ensure we are airtight enough that we are not then pulling in cold air.
I'm afraid seeking air tightness on a renovation anything over, roughly, 50 years old is a fools errand. Your house loves cold air.
Houses built before the mid to late 20th century had a custom designed ventilation system, called a fireplace and draughty windows. Light the fire, it drew fresh air in from the draughty doors/windows, which circulated around the house, taking the moisture laden air from rooms out and sent them up the chimney.
That natural air circulation drew vast amounts of air through the house which, to maintain a similar level of airflow will today, require vast amounts of electricity.
We have just completely renovated and extended our 9" solid masonry, Victorian cottage (Lime mortar, naturally) which was complicated by a 1970's rescue project from demolition, adding a Portland cement render which frustrates the buildings natural breathing abilities.
Our simple and cheap MVHR solution was to keep the original draughty front windows (we had to because the house is listed) and work with the natural design of the house by installing a loft ventilation unit that essentially mimics a chimney, but in reverse, which works with the draughty windows and doors (we replaced all the doors but ensured they were draughty) to push air down through the house and out through the draught gaps in the windows. We keep vents cracked open in the modern part of the building to mimic the old part of the building.
We run a gas boiler as no one could figure out a way to make a heat pump work better than the system I designed.
The ground source heat pump we were quoted for was 20,000+. To pay back the capital cost alone, far less the running cost, would take us ten years compared to our current system.
I hate to say it but you have been led up the garden path by stupid politicians and predatory businesses determined to extract as much money from you as they can.
Will this save us all from CO2 extinction? If you can find one single, credible, empirical, replicable, scientific study which demonstrates atmospheric CO2 causes the world to warm, please let me know because I have spent 20 years searching for it and as far as I'm aware, none exist, although hundreds of millions of £$ have been spent trying.
Shouldn’t a well commissioned system (balanced) extract the same amount as it supplies? How would that lead to a negative pressure differential that would pull cold air in? Genuine question, I am no expert
For this reason your supply fans should always be a little higher than the extract side. This way you slightly pressurise the house to achieve a positive pressure rather than a negative pressure.
Hi Hans, I will have to ask the person who will do the commissioning. The levels of extraction and I assume fresh air can be adjusted in the rooms by adjusting the vent, then the fan speeds can also be adjusted. I will have 4 extraction points and 7 input points. Not sure if that balances fully, it will be interesting to see. @@hans.vbaalen
😂@@RedHotscot
great video. Good to see a collaboration bringing the experience and knowledge of both together.
in regard to the situation with the loft insulation, consider this. if the homeowner were toinstall three inch sheets of hard foam on the floor, caulking with foam between the seams and edges he will be able to achieve an extremely high r rating and virtually no mess or demolition. here in the u.s. if one goes to a mall or other large commercial roof job the contractors remove sheets of the material which also has been treated with a pesticide already and it goes to landfills. we have approached job foreman and asked for their waste and they are more than happy to give it to us because they pay to dispose of it. we load a rental truck and repurpose the material in the home. now we solved two problems for cheap and it can actually be fun to do. the sheets are generally 4x8 sheets and are very lightweight. a case of dark beer is always a good swap.
A great video and it’s good to see SkillBuilder teaming up with Heat Geeks on this topic. A couple of points to mention. The mantra of the Retrofit industry is Fabric First. In other words, address the heat losses from your home before installing a heat pump or other renewables. If you insulated the loft space and draught proofed windows and doors first you could down size the heat pump by several kW as I think Adam mentioned. Also, I couldn’t help noticing that during the heat loss calculations Adam seemed to suggest that the wall adjacent to the garage could be treated as a Party wall. This isn’t standard practice unless the garage is heated and airtight. Finally, regarding uncontrolled ventilation, Adam’s comment about the air changes per hour (ACH) being less than 1 seems unlikely in a property of this age and size. In the absence of a door blower test, it would be risky to assume such a low figure.
Gotta feel for John, what a carry on , I hope it works out. Cant believe he wasn't told to get his loft insulation sorted before the original installation.
Funny all the comments saying this looks far too involved. This is what properly sizing up your heating system looks like. It looks weird because no one ever does it. This house has been one bodge job on top of another for decades. The heat pump didn't cause the problems, it revealed them
There are a number of relatively easy to use home (web browser) heat assessment packages such as HeatPunk to allow you to throw in your floor plan (estate agent quality is suffice), where the radiators are, and out pops an assessment. refine as needed. Quite insightful as to where the losses are.
What’s the point in it though, if I can get a gas combo boiler and don’t require a water tank, then what benefit is there having a heat pump? You’re essentially sacrificing space for water tank heating up water and not using all that is required along with the humongous sized radiators. Not to mention the humongous eye sore that is the heat pump itself.
Gas is wayyy cheaper than electric too.
@@kevinconnell8422 you are fighting the wrong battle there.
The real argument is between a well insulated, comfy all round house and a "heated in bursts" house.
Note that they aren't direct opposites, which is why the arguments get heated (sic).
@@philipoakley5498 what do you mean? Fighting the wrong battle?
I can't see many heat pump installers doing all this assessment before an install.
Nice survey, interested to see the heat loss difference on the conservatory? Also will need to check R290 heat pumps going to a rainwater drain!! Follow Vaillant spec and do a soakaway😊
The app looks great. Will this be going out to fellow heat geeks ? Great video.
Yep
Really enjoying the heat pump series. I am in Canada where my winter lows can be minus 25c, summer highs 30+c, hoping you might have a reference to that at some point?
What do you mean a reference? Scandinavia has those minus temperatures and they run air source heat pumps too, much longer than in UK
This is so helpful - question though, how do you ensure that your contractor will install a heat pump properly particularly if you are applying through the ECO4 scheme? Companies seem quite pushy and then I immediately don't trust them to do a professional job!
Heat Geeks guarantee the system
@@SkillBuilder Thanks so much for responding - really appreciated, but I don't think Heat Geeks carry out ECO4 work...?
Could I put in a request please - that if you make a video about the install, show us how you equalise the flow rates on both sides of the buffer. This will be really useful for installers who are including a buffer and also want to do the right thing of not pushing up the customer's energy bills as a result. THANKS!!
We are doing all that next week so watch this space.
Great Videos ! The Heat Geek Heat Loss App.... when will that be available to use / buy / subscribed to ?
I think you need to do a video on the cost to maintain the heat pump, depending on the amount and refrigerant type may be subject fgas regulation leak check along side a yearly service.
we already know their is limited engineers that can install these, there will be even less that have the experience and qualifications that can work on the fridge side.
other things to consider is response times for call outs on the fridge side if the plumber that has installed it can not rectify the fault and has to wait for a qualified engineer or the manufactures.
Warranty length is also crucial on these, as being an AC engineer in the trade for 25 years i know exactly how much things like pressure leak tests are for lost refrigerant, inverter compressor and PCB’s are to change once out of warranty and it’s not cheap, it will make people’s eye water.
This is not a criticism as our industry has been using air to air & water heat pumps for decades in commercial properties with great success, but we need to discuss all aspects if people are installing these in their homes.
These ones (and most of the monoblock ones going in the UK) don't fall under F-Gas - They are R290, and the refrigerant is hermetically sealed at the factory. The units can be (and already have been in a few cases) DIY installed without any knowledge of the refrigeration circuit.
The only bits that need any sort of qualification, are gas boiler removal, and if the cylinder needs changing from vented to unvented.
The Vaillant ones get a 7-year warranty if installed by a Vaillant partner.
Heat loss calculation starts 8:40
1:04 Air changes
A typical family that I’m used to deal with has a very fixed disposable income to pay for things such as boiler breakdowns or worse replacement. There’s normally not very much room in the properties I work in. What is the smallest room you would be able to install everything needed in and what would be a typical cost of installation assuming rad sizes, insulation etc are adequate.
All very good comments. My issue is the industry is plagued with parts that are the same but (on purpose) slightly different, so that there is little interchangeability. This is good for manufacturers but terrible for the environment.
Ref: Sitting room radiator/poor temps. The position of the radiator next to the door to the hall way containing stairs to the first floor (?) will not help the movement of heat across/into the room - most will be drawn upstairs to the first floor ? Old looking door/windows (albeit opening to an (unheated) conservatory) is likely to further exacerbate the problem ?
Minor point but relevent to a particular problem. .
So if I change to a heat pump and get an electric car (or 2) and want to charge them at same time I will also have to pay electricity company to increase my main power feed to the house? As at the moment even when I switch the shower on the voltage drops coming into my house - what is the average wattage of a heat pump ie what it draws from my home electricity supply?
The 12 kw heat pump working at a COP of 4 is going to take 3kw but might have a start up surge. I would say 4 is optomistic and on a cold night you might be putting 6kw into the heat pump at the same time you are pulliing 7kw out for your car charger. Just don't put your kettle on.
@@SkillBuilder especially while someone else in the house is having a long shower!
Yes he was told his was the biggest domestic heat pump. So if it needs to be increased or he puts too many appliances on he will need a three phase supply. £££££££
Load monitoring on the EV charger (via a CT lead) will take care of that. It will only ramp up to full power when the supply has the capacity (you set the supply capacity at install)
Ive been following all of this from the start it’s very interesting but….
What…. A…..enormous……faff
I am confident Heat Geek knows his stuff and will get this long suffering home owner a good result. Is this level of care and expertise likely to materialise en masse rolled out all over the land?
I’m not confident tbh even after recruitment and training
There’s got to be a simpler way. That said, I don’t have the answers…..
Great video, Roger.
Is it possible to try out the app and figure out what my own heat loss is going to be for my own apartment?
Every radiator I attend where it has been piped top to bottom has cold patches . Is this because the flow is round the wrong way or modern rads just can’t work like this. I thought they piped at top so older people don’t have to bend down to adjust trv..
If cold patches then either blockages in the rad or flow the wrong way around. You get about 5% better efficiency tboe compared to both bottom, and lose another 5% if bottom to top opposite ends.
The convenience is a bonus, but its a bit like the way that electric sockets these days are placed higher for access rather than floor level as they used to be.
App looks amazing can’t wait to use it
How long will it take before the system is cheaper than a gas boiler? Taking installation cost, running cost etc compared to a new gas boiler?
About 40 years. John will be 110 years old. He will get up and do a little dance.
This is the exact point,
Its complete madness
How important is the height of the radiator on the wall - on affecting the convecting effect?
Sorry if this is mentioned in the video and I’ve missed it, but do you mention the size of Heat Pump you recommend for this particular property and heat loss?
It is in the follow up video. 12kw heat pump.
What app is that they are using for heat loss calcs?
Great video.
Heat engineer software already does it.
It’s our own app
@@deanchapple1HE does not do this
I think it's called a guesstimeter.
Is that something you can only use when enrolled onto one of your courses? Looks v good & most importantly very quick.
Thanks
Great to see everyone together, but I’m a little confused. If the heat pump and the radiators were already sized correctly then what needs to be changed to fix this install? Was it the buffer tank or the pipe work in between ?
If you watch the previous videos it explains the problems
@@SkillBuilder Thanks, just checked again. I think the summary is that the existing heat pump was warn out and not worth repairing.
If the customer has a smart meter and you have weather data can you just use the data from the gas meter to determine heat loss? For instance pick a day where the outside temperature is -2c say the house used 130kWh of gas, divide by 24 = kW used to maintain that temp = heat loss? in this example 5.4kW
Protons For Breakfast has a video that suggests a rule of thumb of annual gas usage in kWh / 2900 to give you the heat pump size required (south of Manchester). ruclips.net/video/hCeghKa3liM/видео.html
Yes you could and it would lead to much lower power numbers.
At least these videos show you cannot just graft a heat pump onto an existing system without first going through a detailed survey. Most of the adverts I see don't make this very clear.
But what about the problems with radiator under performance often between 25 to 38% under supposed rating. With a boiler this can be compensated for to some degree.
If you live in the country you have a limited public supply to many villages which cannot compensate for the increase in consumption. A local neighbour was told the new supply would cost £146, 000. He purchased a PV array because he owned the adjacent field. This is not viable for many.
and we wonder why heat pumps are installed and dont work. honestly most companies making a quick book on these things are no way doing all this to find out exactly what people need and then installing it proeply and i understand this guy will do it right but imagine what mosts peoples experience of getting one of these is, i imagine is more akin to the original homeowners install a bodge job as the installers wont want to take the time to do it right
Is the weather really bad in that cupboard under the stairs.
You know what I mean, Top, body warmer and cap.
You have to be prepared, How many times have you gone into an understairs cupboard, inadequately dressed and ended up regretting it.
@@SkillBuilder I know of a person that lived in one for few months. Things must of been real bad.
When will the app be available please? Thank you
So it was more the poor positioning and blocking if radiators causing a lot of the efficiency issues not as much the jeat pump itself?
Is that the conclusion you have drawn from all of this series of videos on Johns installation?
Blimey this is the state of the industry.
This was interesting, particularly as my energy supplier has teamed up with Heat Geeks for the former's imminent supply and installation service for ASHPs.
Roger, is there any possibility of some content about high-temperature ASHPs that, allegedly, do not require such invasive and expensive home alterations?
That is exactly what they have in this house and that is what they are taking out
@@SkillBuilder Thank you for this as I did not pick up on it previously.
The extraction/air change problem need 're-framing' as being about selecting which air is the air that you preferentially want to release to the external environment (extract), given that the incoming air is coming in through leaks & gaps whether you like it or not.
Thus it's far more advantageous to 'exhale' the damp air from the house (at source) than letting warm dry air go to waste. Suck that moist air out!
It's all about the bad mental models. Reminds me of the days when you/granny shut doors to keep the cold out, rather than keeping the heat in!
I was wondering how much the total cost John installation cost over he years?
Hi what what software are you use???
Great to see Roger roger shutting up mostly whilst he doesn't know what he's talking about. More of this please.
Why are panel radiators so ugly? I love the look of the old column ones even if they are more clunky. What makes them more efficient? Is it because the surface area is less than the old pipe style?
Sorry, I know this is a bit off topic! 🙃
They are more efficient because they have a far greater surface area and the corrugated convectors also help to spread heat. A large surface area allows a lower flow temperature and the COP of a heat pump will be higher with a lower flow temperature.
@@rogerphelps9939 thanks for the explanation! Physics is not my thing at all! I was confused whether it was better to spread heat to the room quickly or to maintain the heat in the water by having less surface temperature! So, I'm guessing that the water might need to be pumped round quicker with a lower temperature? Or maybe because the heating is on all the time, and there is good insulation, the water doesn't lose heat so quickly?
Paul weaton has just done a video of heat pumps against rocket mass heaters ..... permaculture design is the only way forward and it's a finger up to the man in every single way
Unfortunately you can't put them in a new build though, it'd not pass regs. Also, an entirely different type of heat. Possibly not for the modern human lifestyle either.
I'd like a rocket mass heater though, so I'll check out Paul's video. The best part, for me, is that it's an incredibly simple technology that you can build and maintain on your own. It requires no app, survey or specialism. I believe that will become more important in the coming decades.
What is the LiDAR program is?
I can't wait to see the first bill
Will be cheaper than a gas boiler. Guaranteed!!
But what's the payback period after the initial investment? How many years?
@@deanchapple1that's debatable as gas is 4x cheaper than electric & modern boilers run @ 95% efficiency which means this system would need to run at 360%!!
That's without factoring in the massive initial cost of the asap compared to a relatively inexpensive boiler
@@Reakerboy It's not about pay back not everything has a payback your car isn't about payback a holiday isn't about payback. It's what you gain from them in other aspects. Heat pumps are about improved environmental benefits or efficiency plus comfort of a constantly warm house 24/7 for the same or less than gas.
@@Burtis89 It’s a fair question, is this expensive?
What is the pay back time vs fixing the boiler?
What if we increased the thermal efficiency of the house but fixed the boiler?
Does it get very very cold here? In which case is there a solid or liquid fuel back up for emergencies.
It’s pretty much always cheaper and better for the environment to fix your old car, you can add all sorts of tech to it, same for housss, this is just an upgrade on the house so what’s the payoff? It could be instant in terms of value add to the house.
If you did all the insulation etc beforehand surely that would make a gas boiler even cheaper to run so I would have thought the heat pump savings are not genuine
The heat loss of a property does not know or care about what your source of heat energy is. So insulation reduces heat loss no matter how you heat your house.
@@normanboyes4983 so any savings by selecting a heat pump should be measured on a like for like basis once insulation has been done. Then including the capital cost and return. All you learn is that proper insulation is the answer rather than gambling on a system that may or not work. As with electric cars I'm not convinced but open minded. What I object to is government and big business telling me how to spend my money and dictating what I can have. At the end of the day market forces will decide rather than I'll thought out dictacts.
Love this content, all very interesting. Would love to know how a heat pump would work in our 1930s house... Where all the kit would go, tank, outside unit... Would radiators need changing... Would our house even benefit from one... Not that I want one 😂.
Exactly my problem and situation not that I'm ever getting one.
Yes you can do a 1930s house with a heat pump. But there are a lot of details. If you change the radiators it will run cheaper than a gas boiler, especially if you take floor heating.
But then the whole operation might become too expensive.
You might want to look into air to air heatpumps (aircon) if they match the power needed. Might be a cheaper option.
Here in the usa there arent many air to water heat pumps for homes and/or domestic hot water from what I've seen. Don't understand why.
air2air that doubles as a/c is more common in tthe usa, aus and nz.
Interesting things happening with split hp combined with mhrv
whats the heatloss app called you are using ?
It is exclusive to Heat Geeks at the moment
If the rad is piped bottom-to-top, the flow should go IN on the bottom and OUT on the top,
else the waterfall effect will only heat around half of the volume.
I don't follow you. The pipes are always opposite ends. With a pump I am not sure there is much difference between flow in the top or bottom.
no. should go in at the top, out at the bottom.
1:45 He says 0.5-0.7 air-changes per hour is 'more accurate' (then 1-2). 1 air-change per hour is passivehouse grade (well EnerPhit, passivehouse is 0.6). A really well-airtighted retrofitted house is in the 1-3 range. Most UK houses are 5-10. Some are 20.
Ah - I get it. I'm talking about the test ratings at 50Pa - he's talking about average air-changes all the time - which is typically reckoned to be about 10% of the test rating. So yeah - that's about right.
All true as to the expertise - terribly complicated though. At home - in my youth - we had a coal fire - we put more coal on if it was cold and let it die down if it was too warm. Don't remember anything else involved really and all was fine. Heating was much, much cheaper then too oddly enough.
2023, hottest year on record. 2024 likely to supersede it, thanks for your contribution
It wasn't fine. Most of the heat went up the chimney. It was extremely hot just in front of the fire and very cold in the rest of the house. Furthermore my mother was up every morning at 6am cleaning out the grate and getting a new fire going. Filthu work and very bad for your lungs.
@@simonm9923so you think getting hard up members of the public to spend 30k on a heating system is going to save the planet!!??😂
Ridiculous
Well no - it didn't. I think I'd have noticed!@@UpsideDownFork
@@pauldavies7251 I don’t remember saying that. Reducing the carbon and other emissions from everything humans do in all areas of the world gives us the best chance of arresting climate change, yes. No one thing can do enough on its own, everything has to improve - including how we heat our homes. Obviously if you don’t accept climate change is real and caused by human activity then you won’t accept that…….
Luckily for John he can afford to fix the fk ups
A crazy amount of time taken to work this all out properly. Just for the customer to decide you're too expensive and goes with the guy who just guesses 🙄
You need to pay upfront for a heat loss calculation. The contractor will subtract it from the cost if you go with them
My heat pump was installed with RHI subsidy. Installers under that scheme were obiged to use a standard heat loss calculation app. It really is not rocket science.
Rodger, I live in a small 1 bedroom flat in a old 6 block building. My boiler doesn’t cost much to run and I am so happy about it. The day they will oblige me to get rid of it, I will put electric radiators but never ever a heat pump. That’s what this video made me think. If they wanted to sell me the heat pump idea they miserably failed. Totally agree with you!
Seems you like to burn money. Ohmic heating is ridiculous.
@@rogerphelps9939how do you suppose he insulates a flat in a 6 storey building??
Without adequate insulation ashp are useless & extremely expensive,
He'd never get a return on his cash outlay.
They don't suit everyone & every home in the UK just like electric cars dont
Why not just go for an air to air heat pump then? This way you won’t have to deal with radiators or hydraulics and will get around 3-5 times more heat out of the same amount of electricity.
As a bonus you also have an AC in the summer because this is what an air to air heat pump basically is
@@pauldavies7251 exactly. And if you have a perfectly insulated Norwegian house you can heat it with a lighter. I don’t know why they always compare non insulated houses with combi boiler and heat pumps in perfectly insulated houses. + heat pump is on all year long. I have been away for 1 week and my boiler was off. + in Scotland you don’t really need cold air in the summer, we just open the window! Thanks for understanding
@@294nduswb I would consider it for sure, thanks for the tip, but the fan may be noisy and I could only put it straight outside the window, on the back, where the bedrooms are; neighbours probably would not be that happy. God save my boiler 😀
Whats the name of the app for survey?
How important is the number of occupants - after all the number does change over the years - it would seem odd to have to change hardware just because of that?
Domestic hot water requirements are based on the average usage. We are assuming people don't share the bath at the same time.
The radiator cover at about 12 minutes in, the 'House Doctor' TV show about 20 years ago made a whole career out of putting them everywhere.
Mould discussion, with all the control systems installed with heat pumps, cant the system measure the RH with a £2 sensor and open a vent or turn on a fan or dehumidifier to control?
Agreed. Given the fact that to get the most from these heat pumps, there's a lot of smart tech involved in the whole process, it seems sensible to just smarten up some sort of humidity control
wouldn’t it be easier and quicker to heat the house to a known temperature, then measure the heat decay overnight (with heating off) against outside ambient (i cant work out the formula to do so, but i have all the sensors)
I would need a good few grand in prior works before considering a heat pump. House is full of air leaks. Not least is that the loft insulation folks vented the upper attic, but didn't seal the dormer nested within it. So bedroom wall and living room cieling are exposed to the near outside temp with 0 insulation. Some rooms are not worth trying to heat, depending on the wind direction and outside temp.
20*C when it's 2*C outside? Not a chance in hell, even with a 30kW boiler on full tilt and the loop temp set to 80C.
Ive just found a coal seam in my garden 🤫.time to get digging
You can't use it. The government owns the coal even if it is under private land.
@@SkillBuilder I was planning on digging it out and backfilling with asbestos 😉
@@SkillBuilder Have you not watched Finders Keepers 'drama' on TV recently?
I like my radiators really hot and 24 degrees
Will be interested in seeing measured performance of the heat pump to show the actual efficiency (COP) and then compare with manufacturer’s data.
At the moment the cost per KWhr of electricity to run the heat pump is say 30 p while the cost per KWhr for my super efficient oil fired boiler is 10 p. So we need a COP of 3 to break even. You should get a COP of 3 in the summer when you only need heat for hot water but in freezing winter you will be around a COP of 1 just when you need a load of heat to heat the house! So 3 times the cost of my oil boiler.
Staying with oil and changing to the green HVO oil when it is domestically available at a reasonable price.
You can see operating systems measured on OpenEnergy that are in the range of 350-500%. If making up numbers makes you feel better, it's a free country.
We have a 5kW heat pump in our annexe, on the 18th of Jan when the outdoor temperature dropped to -6C for most of the day (And 0C for the rest), the heat pump maintained a COP of about 3 for both heating and DHW during the entire day. We currently pay 27p/kWh with Octopus and we last paid 66p/l for oil (In December, we use oil for the main house) which puts the break-even SCOP at 3.38. (Assuming a boiler efficiency of 80%) Considering the heat pump was running at around the break-even point for oil during the -6C period, over the year the heat pump should work out to be far more efficient. (The total average heating COP is 3.9 and the total average DHW COP is 3.2, for the three and a half months we've had the heat pump)
he COP of my GSHP has never fallen below 2.9 even in the coldest weather.. It is usually around 4.
My mums one which is a pretty dumb mitsubishi unit with no weather compensation is averaging just above 3 according to it's computer.
This work is to just get ONE house right for a ASHP to hopefully work correctly , How many houses do we have in the UK Hmmmm
good stuff
Dickie Rock is a plumber??
Hard to believe the first contractors fitted a new system and didn’t ensure the attic was properly insulated. That has been a basic requirement for over 50 years.
There should be a legal cover for heat pump installations to be 8 years with insurance companies covering it in case of the company going bust it’s totally unacceptable that a poor install like this be allow in a way like housing inspection I want the equivalent for heat pumps installed and installers covered by a system such as gas safe registered but for heat pumps yo be mandatory
Not a Hilti tool in sight!
if heat pumps are poping fuzes they must be using lots of electric ? none of it makes any sence to me
They have a big motor in them that can draw a lot of amps as it starts up unless the heatpump is controlled by a VFD or, at a minimum, has a soft starter for the motor.
Can't understand. Heat loss of 12.97kw and a heat pump of 12kw. ??? Also the 12kw is an estimated average over a year, that could be 18kw in summer or 6kw in winter when 0C. How can that work in winter ? 12.97kw heat loss and heat going in is only 6kw ?
If you have an existing system, can't you use the current heat needs? I would at least use it to check the calculated need. How much gas did you use in January? End of analysis.
I have been following this series of videos from the start and it’s interesting
But I can’t help getting an overal feeling of What….a…. Faff. I am sure Heat Geek will get this gent a result due to their competence and care in this case. But I cannot invisage a day when this will be able to be rolled out en masse country wide given the level of complexity and the expertise and care needed, also knowing human nature (both contractors and householders)
There has to be a simpler way. But, that said, I don’t know what that is…..
Hi Mark
The simpler way exists, it is a gas boiler which modulates and suits all home. If you want to reduce CO2 a hybrid heat pump/boiler will do it and it will work in any weather in any home.
I have always said that if any product is so critical that it requires a high degree of skill and knowledge to install it, then it has no place in the building industry because it just won't happen.
The product needs to be plug and play.
Great minds…..
face plant having tom in the hat in the video!
This is all well and good if you got a lot of disposable money otherwise forget it
The owner looks like he wished he never bothered with ASHP and just stuck with a gas boiler
Far to complicated everyone looks stressed lol....stick with a traditional combi and an air to air heat pump in the most used rooms ie living room and bedroom. Much cheaper and easier to maintain also, best of both worlds
air to air on only when you want and very quick….totally agreed
nothing traditional about a combi. In fact if Skillbuilder was around back then he’d probably be making videos about all the faff pulling out your tanks from the loft and repiping to fit a combi :P
a lot of people will have to go without heating as most will not be able to afford all that expense fur coats are going to be in demand
The noise pollution with these things are a real problem. As soon as the outdoor temp gets close to freezing they are much more noisy. 45 to 50 db constant. And much more if it gets colder. The sound of the compressor travels through the construction of the house.. and the nabours house...
They aren't the loud my mum has one cheaper to run no but she's in a no gas village so cheaper than oil or electric heating but it's definitely not noisy she sleeps with her window open. Council bungalow and every single one has a heat pump and they are fine.
probably quieter than the gas boiler in my kitchen..
I have one outside the window right at this moment of writing. It's -22,3c outisde and even with the window open I can't really hear it. So noisy?? It really is funny how tech that's been the norm for 20+ years here is handled in a climate where it should work wonders if you only understood to insulate your houses.
He told the customer to remove the stupid radiator cover and the customer just puts it straight back on 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
23:00 That new heat-pump do they really wanna install it so close to the fence and the neighbor's property ?
The neighbor isn't getting any benefit from this heat-pump, so the neighbor should not be given the disadvantages either, like the cold air that comes out of the heat-pump and the terrible noise. Why not install it in the middle of John's property ?
The problem is that even these experts? Don't seem certain. Every so called plumber/heating engineer (extremely questionable) told me that the heating system i was building would not work. It's funny it's been working for 30 years & is up gradable to have heat dumps for solar/wind energy & it has no pump & requires no electricity. I as a engineer & i know a designer of industrial heat exchangers we don't like this system if i had a choice i would have electric storage heaters( under floor). I grew up with storage heaters in a 2 up 2 down & thay are great. My current 30 year old system maintains 25c all winter & running hot water no problem despite the alleged experts. I have studied the Victorian heating systems that just work but require thought & engineering instead of just put a bigger electric pump in & hope.
By any chance does anyone know if Tom Plumb has had a tattoo done
on his behind of the Tom Plumb Tap Logo and phone number, if anyone
knows could they please put it in the comments, many thanks..
Don't you have make it perfectly clear what your assumptions are? Whilst the heat loss is for sizing of the heat pump, however in this modern day and age you should define where the energy is coming from and at what cost, before then designing the system. The variation in cost from house to house can tend one to prefer a hybrid system.
Jesus. Wouldn’t you just use this in major renovations or new builds. Seems like fairly serious investment. What’s the pay off time?
What’s the payback time for a new kitchen or a new car - why don’t we ever ask that?
Kitchen functional, a car if it earns you a living all payback. This is a pipe dream for a lot of people, a luxury they cannot afford without major investment from taxpayers. @@simonm9923
@@simonm9923okay, what's the payoff time for a new kitchen?
@@ricos1497 my point is no one asks what the payback will be on most things you buy, like a new car or a big new telly but when it’s something like a heat pump or an EV or loft insulation or solar panels that’s the first question that comes up. Spend your money how you want, why do you need to question / justify it?
@@simonm9923 I know, I was just being cheeky. Although I suspect the answer is fairly obvious. Kitchens and cars are material objects as well as functional tools. Nobody is buying a heat pump to satiate their ego (some might be!). I looked at the efficiency of my tumble dryer when buying a new one, and calculated the rough saving over a cheaper model, and I suspect folk do it on other purchases. However, a lot goes down to messaging and, indeed, the subsidies. The message has always been "buy worse technology. It's shitter than your gas boiler, and more expensive, but you have to do it to save the planet. Plus, we'll give you a grand". If they'd just used the time tested model of propaganda and marketing we wouldn't be having this discussion. I was working in Norway a few years back and my colleagues couldn't believe I had a new(ish) house with an oil boiler. They thought it was some old fashioned, backward technology. If we'd just marketed heat pumps as amazing new technology and thrown a bunch of celebrities, hanging off radiators in their pants at it, we'd have sold millions by now.
Adam, 12.97-12.91=60 watts, not 600.. give yourself a break ;)