Heat Geek Gives His Verdict on John’s Nightmare Heat Pump
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2023
- 👇 NEXT EPISODE 👇
• Don’t Miss This Essent...
👇 PREVIOUS EPISODE 👇
• Air Source Heat Pump O...
Roger is back with John, the troubled heat pump owner, to see if Adam from @HeatGeek can help him.
/ @heatgeek
Heat Pump League table
heatpumpmonitor.org
Live link to Adam’s beta pump (click on the bar chart)
emoncms.org/app/view?name=Pri...
Summary
- Simple usage of the weather compensation would dramatically transform the efficiency of this system, it is set to fixed temperature on/off operation. No system should really be using this in this day and age, gas or Heat pump. This amendment could already move your SCOP up to 3.
- Blending valves, bypasses and buffers have been unnecessarily left in and hinder efficiency by creating distortion.. (dilution of the flow temperature, meaning a higher than necessary flow temp is needed). This would likely push efficiency up to mid 3, looking at your ginormous radiators (even with solid brick).
- The fact it’s a high-temperature unit does hinder the performance but considering that it was installed without rad upgrades previously MAY have been the right thing at the time.
Ignoring the simple, easy quick fixes (1 day of labour), the main issue is the immense racket your poor neighbour has to put up with. Unfortunately, because the original installers didn’t lay a base for the unit (all units need a solid base), it has fallen and tilted back, which puts strain in the bearings they aren't designed for. This creates that grinding noise and will also mean the fan blades hit the ice. You have also had poor servicing, a decent service will make sure the unit is level, AT MINIMUM, let alone mention/service the bearings.
Due to this you need a full stripdown and parts replacement of the outside unit. If we can get LG to help there, I have a Heat geek who is FGas registered to do that work for you and we can help with the rest too. If you somehow get a whole new unit which isn't a double compressor, you can expect mid 4 scops, even in a solid brick house, due to your huge rads.
Swapping a unit out is actually much cheaper and easier than a fresh new installation. To give you an idea of what this could cost, to swap that unit out for a 12kW (need to complete a heat loss) Vaillant arotherm plus or VIessmann I would say would be around £7,000 as you already have the rest of the system in place. However, I'm open to helping out where possible.
==========================================
#heatpump #homeimprovement #heating
🔗 Skill Builder Link Tree: linktr.ee/skillbuilder
📪 Newsletter: skill-builder.uk/signup
/ skillbuilder
/ skillbuilderchannel
/ skill_builder
/ skillbuilderuk
🛒 As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases
🎬 All videos: ruclips.net/user/skillbuilderc...
💧 We Support Charity Water: www.charitywater.org
◾ Out of respect to our channel sponsors and the wide variety of people who watch our videos, we'll remove comments that do not follow expected standards of politeness and decency.
Don't miss out! Join our community ▶ skill-builder.uk/signup ◀
Great support and very informative
Unbelievable, there's still grafters out there like yourself. I grew up with lads like you. Good decent men,with a good moral compass unfortunately there's alot of slags .fascinating to watch ,thankyou.
My god what a drama these heating systems are,why would you bother unless your minted.what happened to good old coal. You can't stare in to a heat pump can ya. That in itself is healing, look at flames in the fire ,buitifull. All the best mate.
Outside temperature???
This jon ,he's got more money than sense,what's the saying, a fool and their money are soon parted.wow.
Minimum distance heatpump from wall 40cm. Level the heatpump put it on vibration dempers. We install LG heatpumps daily, no noise, resonance and great scop. Put in enough airfilters and a magnetic filter and you got. Great system
Thanks for having me over John and the invite from Roger! Glad I was able to show the poor install practices that left poor Johns wallet being hit double time! If you want to be assured that your heat pump will work properly please use a trained Heat Geek!
This is exactly the follow up video we needed on this and I'm glad you spent the time Adam (and John, Roger and mug breaker) to do it. I was one of the people on the original thread saying to get you and Simon from urban plumbers involved. I think showing how what was wrong with a real world poorly designed and installed system and how they can be fixed can provide more confidence to consumers than some of the more theoretical videos.
I'd love to see Simon get involved and maybe a manufacturer to implement your recommendations and then a follow up with John who can they explain the differences and hopefully improved experience once its bedded in for a while. Once again well done for coming together on this and I will be recommending Heat Geek installers where I get the chance.
Good analysis and synopsis Adam. Such a shame John was wanting to do the right thing and has been sold and installed a dud.
I was a process control specialist in the chemical industry for decades. Many of the problems you highlight are very similar to where I made my living providing training and consulting services.
I had an air source heat pump installed in my home in the last month in the US. They wired it such that it would run at high speed all of the time along with other errors in control logic. This would have defeated the improvements I was expecting from this swap. Luckily I knew how to fix it and rewired it myself to run properly. They even argued with me that the installation manual from the manufacturer was wrong.
My previous one was wired wrong as well 15 years ago.
They also installed more backup heat than I specified that would have used 2X the power necessary during defrost.
I talked to the owner of the installation company which is one of the largest in my area. She agreed that low voltage was an area of weakness in our country.
I suspect the installed COP in most countries is far from what these systems could achieve with more optimized installation practices.
It is likely many of the decisions made by installers are not only out of ignorance, but also out of reducing call backs. Tweaking systems for maximum efficiency tends to push the system against comfort and equipment constraints.
Heatpumps won't work if we have no summer to warm the ground/air.
Confirms they are more hassle than worth, Bosch gas boiler and forget all this crap
Fair play to both Adam and Roger. Two of the few people on RUclips that can disagree but get together and have an adult conversation, learn from one another and help others along the way too. Top content.
I’m glad Skill builder was open to this video with Adam. Transparency is what is needed here for everyone’s sake.
Surely heat geeks are going to get this system working properly regardless of costs .
This is the ideal opportunity for Adam to put his knowledge to the test and prove the doubters wrong.
@onlyhonestpersononyoutube John the homeowner said in the vid the system works , it’s just too expensive to run .
Adam from heatgeeks replied, we can fix that with a weather comp sensor.
Adam came over very well here! I was critical of him in the first video. However here in a real situation it was truly fascinating to listen to him pick through the issues. As Roger said, I was too was surprised he was in effect sayings it’s been made me overly complicated and would have been a cheaper install if spec’d properly. The external unit needing to be replaced purely down to being on a poor subsurface is the kind of thing most people would overlook, I certainly didn’t think about it. But stood to reason once explained! Hopefully Johns wallet and passion to get this working can spawn another episode to conclude once the recommendations are implemented
I think his heart is in the right place. But he didn't fix it did he. He basically said the pump is trash replace it. I'm dubious if any of what he said would work and if would it continue to work. A 1 year guarantee of efficiency (which they aren't even offering yet) is pretty short and pointless on a system that barely provides enough heat to begin with. Remember the consumer goods act says products should be fit for purpose and last 7 years. A £7k heating system isn't something you can afford to replace once a year! I was happy to hear Adam out, but he didn't say or do anything to change my opinion of the tech.
@@nickrider815he was in a difficult situation there. The pump had been installed incorrectly by a firm that went bust straight after. Warranty on anything is based on it being installed correctly so LG are unlikely to honour it.
Given the high rebuild cost that John would have to pay out of his pocket, plus the fact it’s a wrongly spec’d unit for the job anyway, Adam was advising John he was probably better off cutting his losses with that pump and installing another.
As a result, with a simplified system he would probably be able to buy a cheaper unit than the original and then have the advantage of a warranty moving forward, which still wouldn’t exist on the original pump even if he got it repaired.
@@nickrider815 , I checked the LG site and it gives a 5yr warranty, Surely it its a bearing gone on a motor it could be replaced rather than changing out the complete unit..waiting to see the out come .
@@darrencoyle3290 I'm going off what Alex said, that it was scrap. Also in the last video they said LG wasn't returning calls on this one. Plus manufacturers warranty will only be valid in accordance with correct installation. So the warranty will be invalidated in this instance.
I have spoken to a lot of heating engineers, plumbers and several actual owners and a part from one they all regret installing these things. Heat Geeks offer to maybe one day guarantee a 15-20k heat pump installation for 1 year with caveats isn't going to change my mind.
@@darrencoyle3290 That would be the case if the boiler is no more than 5 years old AND if it was fitted correctly according to LG's specification. So if the spec says "ensure that the heat pump is installed on a level surface" the warrant won't apply.
John, you have my deepest sympathies- I built a new house 13 years ago and fully intended to put in an oil fired boiler. My plumber convinced me that wasn’t the right thing to do as the government had grants out for green heating and he was working with a boiler engineer who could install a wood pellet boiler. It was a disaster from day 1, struggled to heat the house, no hot water (sound familiar), and like you I threw more money at it to try to fix it. It’s like quick sand - you’ve invested so much and these engineers keep promising one more tweak and you’ll be sorted and nothing. Anyway to cut a long story short- after 2years of misery (and a lot of soot) my wife rang me to say that the garage where the boiler was full of smoke- so I got a really reputable old school plumber in to install an oil boiler. The guy who had installed my original pellet boiler fled to Canada leaving a trail of destruction behind him(having gone bust). I do think the government have a huge amount to answer for- they bring out grants and suddenly everyone with a van is an engineer and when the grants go they evaporate. My heart goes out to John because my experience was very similar(it’s funny I even recognised the look on your face when the heat geek guy was talking about 350% efficiency- I had the same look). I do sincerely hope it works out - the heat geek guy really does seem to know what he’s talking about- I wish I had someone like him 13 years ago.
Anything pushed with grants is going to be a disaster.
You hit the nail on the head - overcomplicated systems that cost a fortune and are only affordable due to grants and the fiddling of energy prices to make gas as expensive as electric - You could replace the whole lot in this video with 1 gas boiler and it would be greener in the long run if you factored in replacement parts and the amount of times you will have to repair and replace parts - Its like walking around with a grandfather clock on your wrist when you could just wear a watch
The heat geek was still at school 13 years ago😂😂
@@timhull8664 Thanks! I was 25 and 2 years in to growing my heating business.. hence the wrinkels lol
@@HeatGeek ha ha!
Absolutely one of the best SB videos in this series. It's great to see Roger and Adam finally on site and getting onto the same page. I do hope that John has the confidence to turn this installation around.
What a great video Adam / Roger! Im sure Adam has a plan to offer John some options to fix his issue. However as a plan B we as installers of heat pumps for 23 years and just acquired by EDF we wanted to help and make an offer that we would replace the Heat pump, get rid of that gas boiler and do the alterations like Adam discussed for free. Our designers are Heat Geek trained also, all have the same vision! Offer is there :) We hate seeing consumers that have paid money for a heat pump with this outcome. Gives the industry a bad name....
Good on you. Hope this comment gets noticed!
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
@heatgeek @skillbuilder
Lets hope John gets sorted and we get to see the situation resolved in a video to follow, I would be interested to see the resolution and improvement or simplified of his system .Thank You CBHEATING
Looking forward to the follow up video showing it all working well.
This sort of thing is really showing the issues with lack of apprenticeships and good builder regulations, so you cannot trust that you paying for a good job.
Absolutely. Plus, I would recommend kids (even the clever ones) going into something with a strong practical, hands on element - simply for job security. Heating and electrical systems are great for this - no AI is coming for those jobs, due to the bespoke and hands-on aspects
Not just with heating either.
Finding a true tradesman that is proficient, knowledgeable and conscientious is nigh impossible these days.
The vast majority are nothing more than egotistical diy'ers, and prolifant "bodge-it-and-scarper" merchants who show-up in a plain white van, have only a mobile number, no address based office, cash only or bank transfer into their private account.
Del-boy trotter'esk characters abound...no income tax no vat, no money back no guarantee.
It's very much caveat emporium.
This!
For most people. in most heating situations, not convinced that would fix it. More 'regulations' could make it worse.
When is any government not going to go off at half cock with new technology. Especially when it is it is as politicised as the climate panic. How many of the people jetting in to the COP28 bean feast would even have the remotest clue about what is being discussed in this video?
Rodger one of the best videos I've seen on explaining a product, I was transfixed even though I've no intention in having a heat pump but the heat geek guy was great. 👍👍👍
It would be great to see a series where Roger finds issues with heating systems and Heat Geek and Roger solves them.
Yeah. Lets see Heat Geek resolve them ! LOL Next year he will have aged another 10 years again!
Both of you working together seems to pay off , one asking valid questions and Heat Geek given answers.
Brilliant Roger - let's see this one to a conclusion please. Now Im an aeronautical engineer with 45 years experience and I've not met a device yet that I can't change the bearings on - so don't junk the heat pump! Sounds like the fan motor bearings (just like the usual problem with a flue fan in a boiler!) and LG sell new motors for £300 ish and its a simple 2 minute replacement. Even if the motor isn't available from LG as an assembly, any engineer worth his salt could replace the bearings.......and the thing is out of warranty anyway! Maybe its in LG's interest to get involved here and promote their after sales support?
PS Just checked fan motor and bearings are available - genuine LG parts
A conclusion/follow-up would be great, but wasn't part of the point that the LG heat pump seen here is a 2-stage unit, which is probably not necessary?
Surely fixing the existing unit would enable John to gain confidence the Heat Geek proposals before the neighbours go mad with the noise - then decide on a single/dual stage unit longer term when he sees aCOP of >3.5 is possible?@@Wayfarer-Sailing
my thoughts exactly, stop chucking stuff away and fix it. the bearings would cost next to nothing. this equipment should be maintainable
Not sure modern washing machines are designed so you can't change the bearings
Love Roger's reaction when he inadvertently washes the ceiling... 🤣
But his top n tails bath did let them realise the glycol issue as an extra!! Took one for the team!!
This was a brilliant follow-up video, great collab. Really hope the home owner gets the system sorted and we have another video to see what it took and he finally gets an afforsable comfortable home.
Lovely to see a balanced view and hear the comments of an expert. Thanks for following this story up.
I'm a heatpump installer and an advocate of heat geek, but Rodger, this is pure gold entertainment. Please keep this heatpump info going for one. It makes me feel good about my installs, and for two, it's just good videos. Thanks for your work. If you can, please add a little more controversy. I love it.
Helps with the guilt?
These things are useless in Canada.
@mrofnocnon, surely if they work in Finland that has similar climactic conditions as Canada, there must be something you are doing wrong in Canada?
@@andrewtadd4373The houses in Canada are very poorly constructed in terms of insulation. A heat pump simply cannot compete. Also electricity is very expensive, in fact everything is!
not in Vancouver, electricity is very cheap there!
@@mrofnocnon And yet they work fine in Scandinavia. I wonder why Canada is different.
I appreciate John might not want to risk throwing good money after bad but hope we get to see this fixed with a functioning heat pump.
But at what cost? compared with him doing nothing?
@@thesmallnotesduo There are people with a vested interest in getting this working for him, so cost might not be a real world example, but I would still be interested if this can work in that home.
Maybe he'll get a nice discount for being a guinea pig
At least heat geeks guarantee the COP.
@@BooBaddyBig Yeah that's sounds really good. Though was a bit confused if that something they want to offer in the future or something they do now.
My LG ASHP has been rock solid and running cheaper than my prior condensing gas boiler. Shows you how important the installer is! Brands are going to live or die based on their customer service though, it's best they ramp up training and support.
Yea I thing LG need to have some responsibility here. For the pump manufacturer they need a proper trained competent reseller and they need to certify that through proper accreditation scheme
Great to see a sensible discussion and show that bad fitting leads to bad performance. It is great that you are helping to get this fixed.
On homeowners not being technical about heat pumps, the problem begins before that. Homeowner should not be specifying heat pumps based on advertising and politicians' PR, because that's like telling a doctor the diagnosis before reporting symptoms!
The first call ought to be to an independent qualified heat loss surveyor to get a report on the building's condition regarding heating losses with recommendations for what changes are required to achieve the best standard of efficiency. That may or may not be a heat pump and other changes required, but at least the recommended comprehensive solution, if installed correctly, ought to work as well as it can.
This is great advice, but there are precious few qualified heat loss surveyors available for hire. Given the antiquted state of Britain's housing stock and the current price of energy, we should be awash with them.
The issue there is that it's an additional cost, and additional person to get round. People likely see that as inconvenient and just expect their heating engineer to do the heat loss part for them. Ideally, heat engineers would do a proper survey as their first task and then install the appropriate unit. There are probably a few reasons why that doesn't happen. The first is that, as you say, the customer phones a heating engineer asking for a new boiler or "one of those new heat pump things", rather than asking for a new heating system - they've already diagnosed, as you say. Secondly, the particular heat engineer is likely used to one particular system (usually gas) and will be predisposed to installing that. Thirdly, properly insulating a building in the UK can often be extremely disruptive (unless external clad), time consuming and expensive. You don't get the same feeling as installing a tangible boiler unit. I expect the customer is often just after a quick fix, and the heating engineer wants his sale, rather than having to wait for internal insulation to be done, often room by room - or have to work around that ongoing building work.
I suspect that's why people just throw back in a gas boiler in the end, and heating engineers are happy to oblige. The focus should always be on energy reduction first, energy supply efficiency second, but doubtless that almost never happens.
Once Heat Geek get their guarantee in place, then they can quote on that basis which will enable you to work out your savings, and they you'll be able to safely proceed on that basis.
Thank you Roger and Adam for doing this video. I have every sympathy for the homeowner. I truly hope those cretins who installed it and the cretins who modified it have watched both of these videos and give the homeowner his money back so that he can pay Syzmon to sort it out properly. (I know the installation company went bust - but you know what I mean).
Even if LG cannot provide a sensible service any competent mechanic could replace the fan bearings (LG ado not make bearings), they are readily available and cheap.
I can well understand if the owner goes back to gas and has nothing more to do with the Frankenstein system he has ended up with - It would be great publicity for Vailant or Viessmann to get onboard with this and prime the funding to enable Heat Geek and Syzmon to sort this out.
It does look very complicated for just a house. I think we’d all love to see a complete overhaul and brand new system using Adam’s specifications.
Aye. I'd like to see the return visit!
Or just install a flipping efficient gas boiler instead of this nonesense.
@@1701_FyldeFlyer
I’m with you on that, 36 years in CH Industry domestic, commercial, including design and installation, all the certification to all highest levels,
All that keeps coming to mind is … for the love of god (all of the gods) this is just the work of some under educated/experienced and over mouthy, over confident youngster, that thinks his gunna make a big splash in the industry, using the trust of an honest fella.
For fuck sake it’s a bungalow
@@1701_FyldeFlyer Efficient? a heatpump moves more heat energy then it consumes.
@@kiddy1992 Thus defying the laws of physics :)
Great video. I’ve loved watching the story unfold and Adam recalibrate Roger’s scepticism. I’d like to see what happens here and hope the efficiency can be improved.
Great content. Enjoyed seeing both roger and Adam on site. Discussing and showing the more practical side of this topic. Thanks to both of you.
not sure if it was said in the video, as watched half of it (its long!)- but that unit in this location will recirculate cold air and go to defrost too often. Its a shame that bad installs make people doubt this amazing tech. It works super well when done correctly.
I agree. If it's got enough water volume and it's still freezing up it's probably an air circulation thing
You get a mention later on. What would you do about the fan noise?
@@SkillBuilderI will watch it in full later. Noise needs a repair obviously
Its like a metre, maybe 1.5 metres from front panel. What are people going to do when they dont have gardens, its going to have to be put on a cradle about 2metres off floor to get maximum air intake. Mental.
@@stevenmawhinney5007have you been to the far east and see how they do air conditioning ?
Really appreciate what you guys are doing.. having an honest conversation we can all benefit from. Like any new technology (if it is new) there are always going to be teething issues.. everything from steam engines to cars go through an evolution. And you’ve got to give appreciation to the John’s of the world who are willing to give it a go
I have probably learned more about practical ASHP systems here than I have gleaned over the last 30 years. Thanks so much to Roger, Adam and John for having their discussions on here for all to see and listen to - so many little points to pick up on as well.
John's a really nice chap for letting you guys in and having a demonstration to hand, really made the world of difference in learning this stuff.
Loved the video Roger, I've watched all of the heat geek videos, they are brilliant. I wish more people knew as much as Adam, I've been a consulant engineer for decades and I know many chartered engineers who are no where near as good as Adam. For what it is worth, I always try to make the systems as simple as I can, they work much better that way.
Big thanks to everyone in the video. This was great, and gets to the heart of the problem, a lack of knowledge and care, or both on the part of installers. Heat pumps are one of the easier wins open to us in efficiency and electrification, it's painful to see them made a mess of.
Loved this video guys. Great to see you working together for the greater good.hope there's a follow up video soon if the client sticks it out with the heat pump, cheers guys
Great video, love both channels. Great to see you on a site both working through real issues. It’s a shocking example of a poor and expensive install, for someone trying to do the right thing.
Hello Roger. I was very lucky to get the government grant for the whole system, that being solar panels x 10, 7 new double convection radiators, the external fan cold to hot water heater, a Kodiak boiler with a digital interface, 2 expansion units above the boiler, & 2 thermostats (1 for upstairs, 1 for downstairs). My house met the criteria on a couple of points. Octopus asked me if I'd like this & I was elated, out with the old eco7 heaters & the immersion heater. I now wish I'd never had this installed. The rad's are luke warm at best, the outdoor fan unit switches on & off constantly & the electricity cost has more than doubled. As I write this at 11pm, it's -2c outside & 12c inside. The rad's aren't being heated, just the hot water for the boiler. I echo John's original interview, it's very expensive to run, it feels too cold, & I don't have gas to compensate. I was told the rad's were working fine & that's what I will get heat wise. I've got so many valves, those pumps that Adam stated weren't needed, & my boiler is set to 50c. I live alone so I just live in the kitchen as it's the hub of the house. Out of my own savings I've replaced secondary glazed windows for new upvc double glazed units. Last winter it was just 6c inside this kitchen, now it's 12c so they have helped. But for all of this cheaper heating installation, those rad's are useless. Like you say, it's fairly new technology in the UK, & after watching this follow up with Adam, I think the installers didn't have the knowledge or training. They were just plumbers by trade. As of now, the rad's aren't being heated, they are stone cold at the bottom, & the heat exchange unit is using 93p per hour. My tap water will burn your skin off, but the water will not provide adequate heat to the rad's. I think I have too many unnecessary parts just like John. Something isn't right, as confirmed by your excellent video here. Very unhappy although at least the heat exchange is level & quiet.
Something is very wrong if your hot water is scalding. You need to find a competent engineer to sort your system.
Just ask some or several Geeks to come and look at it. There is U Tube Money to be made. Make it a competition...
Turn it all off and get a cheap Chinese diesel heater or 2
Who was the installer?
@@ryanh3285Hi, seen a few videos on YT where people have done this for less than £200 hardware and cheap running costs.
The std cost of electricity is crazy, gas just barmy, so burning diesel or paraffin is now cheaper.
A plus is that it works in the cold!
Take care M.
Thank you for making this collaboration. Its disappointing that people feel entitled enough to be rude to such helpful tradesmen, but it led to this video thanks to the integrity of you guys. More respect to you.
What a brilliant video. Adam & Heat Geeks - brilliant! Absolutely brilliant 👏 👌 Chapeau! 👏👏
Roger - fantastic as usual, changing the landscape - one house at a time! Well done everyone.
Pure gold - thanks for posting look forward in seeing how this one plays out. Regards Mike
I am hoping John gets a heat geek engineer in to make all those changes and then another video to see the difference.
That would really be great.
Fantastic video, loads of great information and clearly explained by John
Excellent explanation, advice, video and summaries of the issues and solutions. Can’t wait for the “ what was done next” video
This is brilliant watched loads of the heat geek videos and skill builder....always the most informative and helpful information. Would be good to see what happens to this project in the future! Well done Adam!
Really enjoyed this video. As a heating installer, I've witnessed the speed the industry is evolving in the last few years, from my first heatpump install 12 years ago when there was no access to information, barely any uk based support from manufacturers to today where you have heatgeek and others pushing the levels of training and working practices to give the end users the highest possible performance and returns on investment. I'm yet to do any heat geek training but I've been implementing practices I've learnt from their channels and seeing great results.
Fantastic film, to see knowledgeable people exchanging information, in real world situation. More of this honesty could actually find solutions to the challenges we face. I'm a fan of both channels!
Well done chaps good to see you all working together to fix the problem. This benefits everyone
Brilliant video,, very pleased to see you two working together, the customers can only win
What a great video. We've had our heat pump for 8 years and it is still running really quietly, it's a big pump (Samsung 16kw) to heat a big house. We don't have a buffer, everything in the system works fine. My only issue has been that the installer didn't explain anything about weather compensation and they had set the temp at a constant 45c, just like the installation in this video. This, combined with the fact that we have a Honeywell on/off room thermostat was causing the heat pump to cycle on and off too much. I have taken it on myself to learn how to set it correctly for weather comp and I now have it running successfully at a much higher efficiency and the house is still warm all of the time. We're achieving a SCOP of around 3.2 in Winter and 4.2 for the rest of the year, compared to 2.0 and 3.0 as it was set up previously. Very happy with it now, I just wish our installer had set it up this way in the first place.
I’d be ringing the council and get a noise order on the heat pump 😂
I'm really enjoying the impartial advice around heat pumps. They work for some people, they don't for others, having somewhere to find the facts is fantastic.
Great video and I love the way Roger asks the obvious questions that some people would be almost embarrassed to ask, never change that!
A quick note on South-Facing placement:
You will notice that the North side of a building will hold on to snow and frost a lot longer than the other faces of a building, particularly the South side.
You will also notice that temperatures are measured "in the shade" - I believe this is because there is no heating of the ground at the measurement point, so you are measuring air temperature that has not been additionally heated by warmth coming from the ground.
Consider: If we are hot, we move into the shade to get some relief, on a sunny day. We are being heated directly by the sun and the air around us has also been heated because it passes over warm ground, however under a tree it is noticeably cooler, as it the ground we sit upon. This is why ground-source heat pump coils are typically laid in ground that has sun falling upon it, where possible.
Therefore:
If you are installing your heat pump on a solid surface and it is surrounded by more solid surface, the sun will strike that surface and heat it, particularly if it is dark in colour. That heat will be given off to the air around the heat pump. You then pass that warmed air over your heat pump, which results in greater efficiency as there is more heat to extract from the air and pump around the system.
I also think that a darker casing will be beneficial for the same reason - air will be heated by the metal work as it passes over the heat pump. It might not be worth a great deal of extra heat but nonetheless it will increase heat being passed into the system, improve efficiency, lower cost.
Roger will doubtless recall that a customer wanted a heat pump moved out of sight, under a tree, the performance degraded, the cost went up. This may have had something to do with losses due to losses in longer pipe work, but it is nonetheless instructive.
I think therefore that there is some advantage, actually, in having a darker casing, on the South side, if possible.
Your mixing radiant heat with conducted heat
@@HeatGeek I can see why you might think that - but no, I do understand that the heat comes from the air, hence "air source heat pump". I'm simply positing that, when air passes over surfaces that have been heated by the sun, some of that heat will be transmitted to the air, which then blows over the heat pump vanes. The effect may not be large, particularly when you really need it, but it might make a measurable difference to overall efficiency.
It would be interesting to see the testing done by the manufacturer (Daikin ???) who recommended this, to see how large an effect they may have measured in their testing.
If the effect is true and measurable (yet to be determined) it's probably not enough to warrant spending extra. But , if both options cost about the same, it's worth putting the external unit on the South side, just in case.
@@ashtontechhelp if it’s transfers to the air then we would measure higher air temperatures…
I’m no expert having watched the vid / read the above comments - but I would’ve thought if one had a flat roof - you could have a fan - or possibly a series of fans - laid horizontally - at a height to suit for clearances etc at roof level - could provide efficient way of doing things?
The bearings of the fans would be under less stress - utilising low noise bearings tech - & a larger area of heated surface would be available - even if one had to provide some shielding against wind - maybe the system being gravity fed helps too 🤔.
I’m just making it up tbh - but who knows.
One thing I liked seeing is where buildings are designed with walls acting as heat sinks - where they might have a concrete stem that protrudes above that provides heat / or cooling.
Think most external masonry walls act as “cold sinks” so the least one should go is to insulate them on the inside. Obvious to most I suspect but even internal solid masonry walls on foundations from ground level should be insulated. Doesn’t need much insulation even if it’s foil backed insulation/dry lining.
I’m getting carried away -
Many ways to skin a cat is the saying me thinks
@@HeatGeek You would - and, are you saying that you don't in fact see these higher temparatures? In which case, question answered.
The big flaw in our geek’s augment is that most homes with a high temperature gas or oil fired boiler do not have the central heating on in summer and then only for short periods in autumn or early spring. Winter is the only time when the central heating is on most of the time.
The comparison between heat pumps and gas or oil boilers should be for winter only.
ASHP COP for 0 to -10 degrees? Is 1 to 2 ie 28p to 14 p / KWhr Cost of oil today 8 p/ KWhr ( source Nott Energy consultants)
The geek used thenSCOP annual figure of 3.5 which includes summer. And had the ASHP low temperature system running all year using weather compensation to adjust flow temperatures. Resulting costs far higher as WE DO NOT USE our central heating in summer . ASHP systems cannot give you a quick burst of heating if it is a bit chilly.
I have oil and will continue with it . Happily the alternative HVO replacement oil will soon be widely available and its price will fall in time. Only need to change a jet on the boiler.
Finally imagine a cramped new estate with each property having ASHP s running. The noise frequencies will differ a bit and will resonate!!
Agreed - the manipulation of heating stats to include summer time seems to be continually overlooked, ditto the insulation - all systems use less fuel if the house is insulated more highly.
Never do we see an apples and apples comparison. We also have oil and it has been consistently cheaper than gas for the past 9 years - sometimes considerably so. Throw in buttons to service and zero cost standing charge and it will be a cold day in hell when this house converts to ASHP.
I just did my own ASHP install on a 213m2 new build. The results are fantastic. It pulls only 800 watts to keep the house at 19c at -2c outside. The old house this replaces had an oil fired boiler and the costs to run that were atrocious. Now fuel oil is very expensive here in the netherlands I must add. I was a heat pump critic but not anymore. Its dead quiet as well
So good to see you 2 guys working together
Well done guys. Great to listen to. I’m now retired but spent my life looking at the installation thrown in by many others who simply didn’t know what they were doing. I made my apprentices understand why they did what they did and not just do a thing because “well! That’s what you do don’t ya!”
Cracking video chaps, and great work by Adam and Heat Geeks for trying to get this industry straightened out. The technology clearly works when it's done correctly but it's difficult to have faith as a consumer that you're getting someone who knows their stuff, rather than a fly by night outfit cashing in on govt grants. The HeatGeek guarantee will certainly help give consumers confidence - if a company is prepared to offer a guarantee it stands to reason that they are confident in their workmanship.
A gem of a video, which has re-shifted my confidence towards heat pumps installed in Britain's mild climate, providing the site and system is correctly surveyed competently beforehand.
I wonder if the closed space for the heat pump is causing it to resonate and perhaps putting sound absorbing foam opposite against the fence might help?
Great video, and awesome seeing Roger and Adam together!
So true, so much overlooked.
Working very well now after fixing much of it myself!
Absolutely love content like this..... real world problems and solutions..... and not a tool advert in site!
. If our viewers want to throw money at us we will go advert free but they don't and we have bills to pay just like you
Learn how to get YT Premium for a lot cheaper, and you won’t get ads.
Totally agree, if you watch YT a lot, the subscription is well worth it, in my humble opinion.👍@@itsagoal182
Brave browser no ads with it
@@itsagoal182 already there……
What I like most about heat pump systems is their simplicity 😂🥶
They said condensing gas boilers would never catch on. The installers said they weren't worth the premium! Who needs circa 90-95% efficiency, gas is so cheap 65-70% efficiency is fine! For the last 5-10 years anything not condensing is instantly condemned as inefficient and wasteful! Simple way to tell if your boiler is condensing - does it have a water drain valve at the bottom? If it doesn't it's not a condensing boiler!
I think the biggest problem with heat pump installations in countries like the UK is they are trying to retrofit them into houses that have extremely old radiator heating systems which are based around pumping water all around your house. Pretty much every house in Australia has a heat pump air conditioner/heating system and it's much more simple over here as we use them to heat or cool the air which is blown through either a whole-of-house ducted system (which can be zoned to certain rooms) or split heads which are placed around in separate rooms. There are also some other types like cassette systems that sit flush with the ceiling. A whole of house ducted system costs the equivalent of 5000 pounds or individual splits around 650 pounds.
By instead using them to heat water instead of air you are introducing so many more points of failure. Water leaks, blockages, pump failures, heat loss
And before someone comments that Australia isn't cold enough so not putting heat pumps under much stress Canberra has a similar climate to London and our record low is -23c. Looking at the climate data for the UK -25c is pretty much the coldest it has ever gotten. My air conditioner is rated to cool up to 52c and heat down to -25c
I an dreading how noisy my awful neighbours new pump is going to be, like the one in this video it’s facing my border fence and I swear it’s to close to us to be ‘legal’ - I will be onto the council straight away if it makes noises like this poor man’s fan does - awful awful machine
Wonderful to watch, a meeting of minds. Great video!
I love how the relationship has blossomed! Keep up the good work and please have another follow-up video to this please this is great
This was quite interesting to watch. I am in the HVAC industry in The States. When I look at all the expense for that high-efficiency equipment, that does it last all that long, I compare that to my original Heil 80% gas fired forced air furnace that is 39 years old and still performing as it should, amazingly without leaking any CO yet. However, that furnace will be replaced within the next year proactively, with another 80% gas furnace. The air conditioning equipment is also original from 1985. I selected my own HVAC equipment when the house was built, as opposed to what the builder offered. The repairs to the furnace at this point have been a gas valve and a draft inducer, and a new contactor in the condenser outside. The 3 ton York condensor with an American built Copeland compressor is original including the AO Smith fan motor. All that stated all the fan motors have oiling provisions, so they have lasted all these years because I keep them lubricated, as well as keeping the coils clean. My savings is from the lack of repairs over all those years. Fortunately our natural gas costs here in the US are still manageable for the most part. 5 years from now, who knows. Cheers gentlemen.
80% efficiency? That is low to the UK.
Longevity and efficiency are good, but the issue is that we all have to get off fossil fuels in about 20 years, easy stuff like cars and home heating first. Fitting a new gas system now is 15 years more delay and the corresponding say 30 tonnes of emissions (could be more for a big US house). The time to switch is now, and especially if you are a heating engineer you have the expertise to assess kit and lead a little within society - your friends probably ask what kit you recommend?
This isn't a future problem any more, it's our actions right now that matter.
Great video Roger. Good to see you both helping out John’s really awful situation, especially for the poor neighbours. Interesting to hear about Adam’s comment on Zero Emission Boilers by Tepeo. I’ve owned one for a year now. Look forward to seeing another video on John’s system being fixed after all he’s only ever tried to do the right thing.
Tepeo seem to have re-invented the storage heater, popular in the 70's.. Probably a tad more expensive..
If I was living next door to that racket, I'd be complaining.
Wow they saw you coming huh ! ZERO emissions total lie
@johnriggs4929 We had a new build a few doors away with a bad installation which meant this noise could be heard over a whole road, even indoors behind new double glazing. It was horrendous, but thankfully the owner builder did get it sorted.
That was an incredibly informative video. I've just had a new combi boiler fitted and realise I should fit weather compensation. I expect to fit a heat pump next time, hopefully some good few years away yet, and what I've just learned will be very useful. Thanks for all your hard work.
Fantastic video
Good to see how well you get on and be good to see the results of this when it’s been altered
I put the Ideal weather comp kit on my Logic Heat Only gas boiler. It took a bit of getting used to cooler radiators, but it certainly works and has saved gas and money and the kit was less than £100. I'm retired now, but I was Gas Safe registered at the time. Incidentally, when it was -4C yesterday the flow temp went right up, just as it should. Go for weather compensation for sure if your system can support it.
my mate had the same problems, the company went bust, then he had another company take over, they couldnt get it working and then they went bust. Then he has struggled to find anyone who will work on them at all.
The best joint video yet from Roger and Adam
Great video! Expert advice from Adam and team who are changing the game for the domestic heating industry.
This was a very good video from you all. Shame around the circumstance given the poor owner has had this nightmare of a situation but greatly reassuring that there is light at the end of the tunnel should he take on the advice suggested. He sounds like he will give the heat pump another try and I hope you guys might be able to help with funding the replacement (do get some financial benefit in content for your channels so maybe a bit of a discount 😉).
Was very good to see Rogers surprise that the system could actually be simpler than it was and that it looks to have been over engineered for no benefit.
Hope you can do some more content like this, checking up on issues and finding a resolution and then maybe a "revisited" series to see if the suggestions/rectification work actually helped 👍
Love seeing you two working together to highlight installation problems.
Excellent video, will be great to see an update when all sorted.
Well done. A video with a lot that needed to be explained. Much appreciated.
Look forward to a revisit once all the recommended works are done
when John quietly dropped into the original convo the fact the his lecky bill went up TWO-AND-A-HALF TIMES it was gameover...scene of crime forensic analysis done mate
And the crime was a badly designed and installed system. Which is the entire point of the video. Analysis: get a heat pump system that's designed and installed correctly.
Been doing air to air for a long time. Outdoor unit position and installation is the most important part for me. Winter time in heating it’s better for a bit of solar gain to help stop as many defrost periods so go for south facing if possible. Working abroad for the cooling we tend to put them on shaded walls. It’s all down to basic easy knowledge which these guys are spreading. Keep up the great work lads!👍
Nice one gents. Great to see a good discussion about fixing problems! Roger - full credit for being open minded about the potential of heat pumps Sir. Respect.
Thanks, I was always open minded and John's experience was the very thing I was warning about in my original video.
If Adam did a rewind on that video he would see that everything his company is trying to achieve now is to avoid the very things I highlighted. So many people think I have moved from that orginal stance. It has always been the case that heat pumps can work but it is also the case that sometimes they can't.
@@SkillBuilder indeed. And great that John is happy to go on camera and talk about it. Hopefully he will get it sorted - A follow up video is essential viewing IMO. You are spot on about cowboys coming in to grab the grant money too. Your experience and Adam's boundless optimism and ASHP specialism are a powerful combination!
Great video Roger, Dylan and Adam (and John!). I'd love it if one of the manufacturers offered him a heavily discounted (or free!) new unit and we got to see a working system. Either way, it was fantastic that you were able to revisit and give heat pumps in general a fair showing. Well done guys, much appreciated.
Brilliant work guys... Hopefully Adam and Szymon can get this installation fixed and show case the difference correct system design makes to a heatpump installation. If you can do it with the same heat pump (and obviously the property is the same), that really makes for a comparison!
Can you find a good source for replacement fans on the outdoor unit? As changing those doesn't break into the refrigerant system, hopefully Szymon could fit those rather than needing to drag out a refrigeration company.
Correct inspecting would denote those Fan bearings were shot, pulling that Fan Motor and then having the motor services and bearings replaced or even just a new motor wouldn't be a be a Kings Ransom, rather than condemning the Unit... those other internal mods would be child's play ...
Excellent video, I learnt so much so thanks to all three of you.
This is one of the best videos to watch at the min to make people realise that not all heat pump installers actually know what they are doing. Massive round of applause to Adam Chapman for all his knowledge here on keeping the system design as simple as possible and helping this poor customer who unfortunately had a very poor install. I hope he gets it all sorted and he gets an efficient working system that he’s happy with like I am with mine. My system is a heat geek approved install and I wouldn’t use anyone else . I did do some extensive research before I made the jump from gas boiler to Heat Pump.
Wow! What a great video. Great to see an expert who understands the systems and can advise. I was a total heat pump sceptic until we had one installed in the 200 year old community centre that I help out in. Thought the fans would be noisy etc. Wrong! Runs extremely quietly, constant heat throughout the buildings and the control panel lets us know what is going on in each room separately. Might look at installing one at home too!
So it still makes noise. Is it as quiet as a fridge? How many decibels is it?
@@annakramar5088 didn’t measure it, but you can stand right beside it on full tilt and can barely hear it. Honestly impressed.
Well CONGRATS to Mr Heat Geek, now hes lost his harry Enfield babeball cap, he looks a lot more professional and trustworthy 😊😊😊😊
Hat return due in June 2024
@@HeatGeek hat goes on , credibility goes d o w n ..............................🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
If people base credibility on a hat I really don’t mind what they think AT ALL 😁
Another excellent example of great advice from heat geek and skill builder
Great follow-up video providing the background and detail about why the client received the extremely poor performance the first video highlighted. The need for good quality installers, who understand the elements that effect the systems performance will be a huge issue in this growing industry. Eventually the heat pump may be a no brainer to choose, but I do think that far too many poor installations are in the UK's future, especially retrofit systems.
Although I’m still with a gas condenser boiler. I have insulated the 1st floor ceilings as well as the
loft space and upgraded the upstairs Rads. Downstairs I have underfloor heating. When the prices drop I will definitely use a heat geek installer.
Well done guys. This video encapsulates the real set of issues we've experienced so far in our journey toward energy-efficient home heating. If John's installation can be simplified, his heat pump fixed and the system made efficient, I think these 2 videos would be the best marketing the industry could get 👍
Great video can’t wait for a follow up on what’s gonna happen thanks Roger
Great video...I hope there is a follow up video where Johns heat plump issues are fixed and he get the efficiencies he hope for.
I hope you follow-up on this follow-up.....I want to see the system work like Heat-Geek said was possible. THANKS!!!...this is seriously important stuff!
I think a follow up video would be ideal. It would be good to see if the proposed changes actual work. The problem with this is that it is easy to talk about making changes, but it costs money for time and materials to do so. If I were John, I think I might ask that they change the system in such a way that the buffer can be taken out of the system and put back in just using valves. Similarly, the TMV and Pump on the UFH are retained until the system has been provien to be more efficient, so they could be refitted if the changes didn't work.
@@tlangdon12 I would think the original designer/installer would step up, replace the outdoor unit and make those simple changes (mostly, like Roger pointed out, removing a lot of stuff). Maybe Roger's RUclips channel could motivate this to happen (a bit of shaming can go a long way).
Now that's the type of information people need to see, this is a supremely important video to watch whilst making a very costly decision. I was firmly in camp Roger but after seeing this maybe a heat pump is a good idea!.!?. The proposition is sullied by too many snake oil sellers as per windows, solar etc 😢 skill builder cutting through the crap and respect for heat geeks knowledge, got to be something good out of this surely 👍 💯💥
Thank you to Roger and the team for this follow up video.
It's nice to see two professionals explaining things so we can understand
I have no experience with heat pumps but I have loads of experience with Air Conditioning units and Pool heat pumps which is basically the same thing. I had a property in Florida and thankfully had no near neighbours, closest was approx 100mtrs away. Our Air conditioning unit sat outside our garage side wall and only windows on that side of property were our bedroom side windows which were long but fairly narrow. Our Pool heat pump sat on the outside wall of our bedroom on same wall as AC unit but at rear end of wall as opposed AC unit near the front end of wall.
Now when these units were new they were fine but as time goes by they get more noisy due to the outer casings start to rattle. As I said we had no near neighbours which was just as well and the Pool heat pump was an alarm clock effectively because it started up at 8am. Here in the UK the thought of having one of these things with near neighbours would be horrifying, it could easily start a war with your neighbours.
Risk of neighbours nipping round to switch it off.
Yeah we’ve all heard ratley old pool heaters. They don’t need to sound like that though, the latest designs are super quiet with decent bearing systems.
I would image that there is still some improvements that can be made to the cases of heat pumps to both absorb noise, but also to ensure they remain intact after they have been removed 20+ times for servicing over the life of the machine.
I am a keen follower of Roger because I consider him to be a ‘common sense’ man. So, it was interesting to see Roger collaborating with Adam. Adam seems to be a man who really knows his stuff.
I am considering getting a heat pump installed. This video has given me more confidence. I hope John’s problems get resolved quickly.
We're looking at a heat pump install right now and have gone with a heat geek trained firm - straight away they seem good and won't even talk about hardware until they've surveyed the heat requirements of the house. Contrast that with the last gas boiler we had put in - a 30kW boiler in a tiny 2-bed house - which was so overspecced we never got better than 40% efficiency from a brand new condensing boiler.
@@matthewseymour8972 Thanks for your comment. I shall look into this in the near future 👍🏼
Credit to Roger who used to be very critical of heat pumps, getting an expert in to demonstrate the HP is not the problem, just the incompetent installation.
This was absolutely brilliant, I am now considering the buffer tank, and my retrofit UFH manifolds which have thermostatic mixing valves. I often wondered if they were needed. The stability part as well on the heat pump bearings - wow. Great video guys - much appreciated. Only quibble is some people just simply don't want gas and that's the priority, not cost - though i wouldn't mind paying less ha ha Great video thank you, I was glued all the way through
This is a brilliant video, it's great to see that you've gone back to try and help John out with a proper expert in Adam. I hope it's all finally put right for him.
There's a lot of people that think they know what they're talking about, but Adam actually does know and that's a rare thing these days.
Although I'm still an advocate for installing an air-to-air HP in my own house, it's still interesting to hear about what to look out for if I ever change my mind and decide on air-to-water.
As a final, Jaysus Christ those fan bearings are screaming in pain! I really hope that they can be swapped out for decent ones without changing the whole fan assembly.
Air-to-air can be good, but the wall units are quite large, and can dominate a small room. They look like they would expensive to have a wall unit in each room. We have 10 rooms in our house that have radiators in them currently, so we would need a very large outdoor unit (or units) to support 10 wall units. I'm not sure we have the outdoor space for what would be needed. We are also used to having stored Hot Water, so would need an air-to-air system to provide this.
@@tlangdon12 We use air-to-air HP's all over the place at work and that's where I've been taking my inspiration from. The air handling units aren't that large, I have a tower fan sitting in the corner of my room right now that is twice the size of one of those units and it isn't a problem, this feels like a bit of a perpetuated myth on how big or intrusive they are or need to be.
You also probably don't need 10 seperate handling units if you have 10x rooms. My house has 8x rooms and through physics, cross-convection and the ducting of my MVHR system, I calculated that I could heat all of them quite effectively using 2x units, or even 1x if I really wanted to push it. The heating engineers at work agreed that was perfectly fine, when I showed them a drawing of what I wanted to do.
Likewise, you don't need a massive industrial-scale external unit to accomodate 10x air handling units, the only major things in that unit are a compressor and a radiator...the rest of it is in the interior air handling unit. The external units are usually significantly smaller than their air-to-water cousins. You just scale up either/both the compressor and radiator as needed, one basic external unit is usually capable of feeding up to 2-3x air handling units before it hit's it's limit and needs upscaling, so the guys told me. You could probably get away with either a single upscaled external unit, or two smaller units delivering for upstairs/downstairs respectively.
At work, one of the office buildings is done like this and it's the size of an average warehouse, the air-to-air external unit just for that building is the size of a small motorcycle. That's absolutely tiny in relation to the rest of the building, but it's actually over-sized a little so it's not running flat-out all of the time. I remember being shocked at how small it was, yet was delivering so much. It's been going for over a decade now with no trouble and usual basic sarvicing...because there's hardly anything that needs to be serviced on it.
Absolutely brilliant video! Would love to see the modifications. I hope urban plumbers, heat geek and maybe skillbuilder could do a deal to minimise the cost to John for the purposes of showing the difference a good design makes!
Another heat geek company has already offered to do it for free
@James-dv1df that's awesome, just hope it gets filmed.
Great stuff. Look forward to part 2!
Part 3