Gas costs 6.25p kWh and electricity 25p kWh (4x more) so you need a COP of 4 to break even. Only central planners could think these things are efficient!
I fitted four ashps to our house and neighbouring b and b in 2012 one died after 7 years one died after 9 years. Gone back on oil, use the survivors for hot water when the weather is warm but not sunny. They are very expensive to run. I'm a qualified but not practicing energy assessor. Fitted them all myself. We also have two solar thermal arrays a 4kw solar pv array and a 6kw wind turbine. Solar thermal is unbelievable in the summer. The most impressive of them all.
We lived in a flat with wonderful heating. We ran the gas an hour a day and we had hot water and plenty of warmth. Then at Christmas the old couple in the flat below turned off their radiators and went away. We nearly froze and had the gas on continuously until they came back.
You should warn the old couple of the dangers of burst pipes from no heating, the next time they plan to go away lol. In fact they should turn it up a notch just in case.
I am a Retired Plumber and Gas Safe Engineer , and I still have my 18 year old Worcester 28i Junior Conventional output Combi Boiler and I have no plans to replace it !
I fitted a ground source heatpump 16 years ago and had a similar experience to this guy. My installation was £20k then and the pump packed up within 2 years. Although my house was brand new and had underfloor heating throughout it was utterly useless unless you enjoy a cold house and cold showers. Fortunately like this chap I had an oil boiler to assist the HeatPump. After the pump stopped working I just bought another oil boiler for a tenth of the price of the HeatPump and the house and hot water is lovely and warm. Buy a HeatPump at your peril.
One of the problems never mentioned is the noise. A friend has a couple of neighbours who have installed air source heat pumps and the low frequency noise is annoying, particularly at night. Thank you for mentioning this! It is a real problem.
@@therealrobertbirchall- the general public are being used as the test bed for all this technology and paying handsomely for it and the government cronies are making lots of money.
A house 5 doors down has ASHP and we keep our bedroom windows closed every night because we can hear the noise from the outside unit . Now imagine if every house had this going
Can’t believe people have fallen for hear source pumps 😂, it’s utter bollocks 🤷, a friend of mine is now installing a wood burning stove after his wife moaned she was freezing cold and their electricity bills went through the roof!!!!, my dog is laying in front of my wood burner roasting his chestnuts😂, this guy talks bollocks about clean air when the rest of the world is burning 8 billion tons of coal a year 😂
I got a quote for an air source heat pump last year, they recommended solar panels to power the system, the total price was £24k, after government incentives it worked out at close to £17k. The salesman warned me that the system would struggle to produce heat at an outside temperature of -10 to -15 degrees. I live in Scotland and although it’s a rare occurrence I realised I’d be paying a ton of cash for a system that wouldn’t work when I needed it the most… I still have my gas boiler
You did the right thing, it's an absolute con to suggest that solar PV will run a heat pump in the winter months when you need the heat pump most. So much miselling and half truths being used to sell these systems.
Keep the gas boiler as it is, or use oil boiler if you can get a good deal on oil. but take the solar panels offer so you can make electric to run your house during the day. That's the best combination in Scotland. If you have the space, and money, you could ago get a mini wind turbine to make more power when windy. But keep away from heat pump..
24k is a mad amount of money. Only point it’s probably ever viable if it comes with a new build house. But if you have to pay 24k, how long would it take to break even? Couple years from death 😂
I am a retired heating/plumber engineer and i have a large edwardian house. 5 bed .I installed a potterton cast iron floor standing gass boiler ,balanced flue in 1984 and i have no intention whatsoever of replacing it and my gass bill are not too bad , my house is warmer than the adjoining property .
We rented a house for a year, the central heating played up so we told the landlord, a big fat plumber came around kicked the pump, Brrrum. he cleaned the Impeller and said let me know if it happens again. It was at least fifteen years old then and we bought the house, we then lived there twenty six years with no problems. Ideal Mexico boiler.
I did the math for my house , new gas boiler 7 years ago for £2500. £70 service once a year and a full service today for £150. Spent £700 last year on gas for all our heating and hot water- 4 bed detached house.
As a heating and aircon engineer for 40 years I'd never touch a heat pump with a barge pole. Basically a heat pump is a refrigeration or aircon unit working in reverse. All it does in principle is move heat from one place to another. Aircon takes heat from inside and dumps it outside, heat pumps take heat from outside and dump it inside, reverse cycle heat pumps work either way. Just think about it, if it's minus 5 outside how much heat are you going to pick up from outside to dump inside? The other problem is that the flow temperature through the radiators with a heat pump is getting on for half of what you get from a gas boiler in cold weather, hence you need huge radiators to get the same output. Underfloor heating needs lower flow temperatures so that's less of an issue, but you need to run it 24/7. It's all a load of nonsense unless you build a new eco house with virtually no heat losses.
Hi, I was apprenticeship trained by Prestcold, the biggest refrigeration company at the time, and went into air-conditioning and later installing the first UK and the later we'll known japanese heat pumps, and all struggled, they got better but I moved on to service and commissioning and wrongly designed and installed plus bad commissioning are a major factor with problems. My home as solar panels a 52 kW kerosene boiler running my central heating, two mulit burning stoves and four heatpumps, with a computer that turns off all heat pumps at 6 centigrade. I still wake up after a nightmare dreaming about trying to fix heatpumps and facing cold customers.
I have an aircon system that also operates as a heat pump and it is insanely expensive for heating when it gets cold outside. Having to rely on that for your only source of heat must be a nightmare.
My 10 year old airmec heat pump started frosting over last years.After 4 different engineers came round finally workd out the mother board had failed thus not allowing the unit to go into defrost mode.problem solved! The main problem with heat pumps is the fact that you can find an installer in 2 minutes on Google but finding someone who knows how to repair them when they go wrong well that's another story.
Ive got an 8kw misubushi air sourced pump. Totally agree with what the guy in the video said, the vanes start freezing up at about 3C. Yes it does go into defrost mode which works but then freezes up again 20 minutes later. In fact it gets so bad I turn off the heat pump in winter and use a wood burner. Also very difficult to find someone to come and fix it.
As we heard in the video, many of the problems were caused not by the technology itself but by poor installation, inadequate maintenance and inappropriate expectations as regards to the heat requirements of the older part of the house. You have to insulate. Most UK builds are shockingly low on insulation. Even the new ones. That is purely down to inadequate government policy over the last 20 years, and especially the last 14 when grants and incentives were simply not available. The other major factor is heat recovery ventilation. UK houses traditionally are draughty as hell to dry them off and ventilate the fumes from coal burning, our traditional fuel. The installation of gas boilers has not been accompanied by installation of heat recovery. Because UK is so wet and likely to get wetter there is enormous heat inertia with any heating system the extra heat required to dry things out. Just insulationg and draught proofing can just seal the house up and then you get damp so you have to open windows and it's bye bye heat. Profiteering from private sector builds has left UK with a huge retrofit problem. Who is having to pay for this scandalous failure of public policy? The individual property owner of course.
@@holgre3470 Or we just stick with the technology that works. Rather than chasing this pipe dream of lessened environmental impact in a nation which contributes less than 1% of greenhouse gases. We've done our part - it's time for major polluters to follow suit.
I really loved this video. Such a relaxed, informative and above all genuine chat about heat pumps. It's really good, I love all your videos, keep up with the good work.
It just goes to show as a consumer of renewables the biggest task is finding an installer you trust, recommended by others, who should remain in business for the foreseeable future and likely to be around to fix stuff and honour warranties
Well done to Roger for continuing to have an open mind. A big well done to John for leading the way and doing what you've done. Hopefully you get sorted. And in the words of Roy Keane, Adam is doing his job.
Can imagine waking up at 3am and listening to hundreds of them humming across my densely packed housing estate. Together with battery cars, what a nice life people will have in the second half of this century.
I read a study about that impact of white noise, on people's mental health. It explains a lot. I have sensitive hearing for any annoying vibration sounds. I can't sleep if I hear something like that.
This guy has basically proven that you don't put in a heat pump. You put in a heat pump system. Weather comp, proper heat loss survey, heat pump specced for proper output based on radiators and weather comp curve, hot water considerations, the lot. It's a rare house that's going to just be a simple swap, for all the reasons cited including the "swingy" British weather
A more educated consumer could have avoided 99% of this. I’m in the same climate. Very happy with my purchase. Only downside is the house temperature isn’t as stable as it used to be. It’s an old leaky house so the cold leaks in. All the while the pump is trying its hardest not to “overwork “ or use the backup resistance heat. Therefore the actual indoor temperature lags a degree. Small price to pay but I’m confident this would barely be noticeable in a new build.
To be clear, in no way was I attempting to blame this on the homeowner. I don't think anyone else should either. He went early-ish on and fell afoul of things he was necessarily trusting others to have expertise in, like we all have to do. The lesson here is just make sure you are getting a variety of quotes and do enough research to be able to know what questions to ask, because it's complex, but that doesn't have to mean it's not right for you. This video is a valuable thing to have out there for that purpose. The thing we need is a proper accreditation scheme for this. Until there is one, get a heat geek trained fitter because they are taught all this detail, seem very well respected and my experience with one for my heat loss survey and quote was excellent. I'm sure other companies are good, but heat geek are really trying hard for the training angle to be the best they can possibly make it.
I had two gas boiler installations in the last three years, done by two different professionals (registered with professional bodies). Both badly installed that led to problems not discovered until later. It doesn't matter what the technology. If professional incompetents are doing the install then problems will occur. One problem is that there is so much incompetence in the UK that the more new or complex the technology, the less likely the trades will know how to fit them properly and with those arrogant or careless enough to think they don't have to keep learning, or read instructions, then problems result. I also had an EV charger fitted by a professionally registered electrician. He left it with an RCCB fitted where it should have been an RCBO. Electrician with years of experience and he never even realised an RCCB did not have over current protection. God knows what dangers are out there because of him. The trades in this country are utterly dire because no one checks their work.
We have a air source heat pump installed by local authority in our rented one bedroom semi bungalow five years ago. We don't use the hot water part as it's too expensive. The air source really struggles when outside temp gets below 10 degrees Celsius and because its electric very expensive. So my advice to anyone is think again! Our bungalow was built in the fifties and has cavity insulation and loft has about 30cm insulation. Arty
And our experience was very different. 2 bed bungalow, similar age, and it worked great for the entire time we lived there. no issue with heating even when it got to -10C
Well i live in a 2 bed 50s bungalow. There are many cons ( pardon the pun) with these systems. Expensive to install, not many engineers qualified to service or fix. These things can spend a lot of time defrosting due to moist outside air freezing on the evaporator. They just dont give enough heat to properly power conventional radiators and so on. Ex refrigerator engineer talking. @@djenson
@@Doug.... The only time the defrosts noticeably tanked the cop is when it snowed and it started to suck snow into the condenser. agree with your other points. even ours was initially misconfigurad.
Well i didnt want to get into a slanging match me old mate. Im truly glad you had a good experience with your system 👍 As an observation it doesn't seem that long ago when Roger did a video initially and didnt have a good word to say about these systems ! Regards @@djenson
I think the answer to this is to forget about heat pumps but to go down the pub more. When you're down the pub, especially for a very long time, enough to make a difference to your utility bills (if you turn the heating off 30 minutes before you leave home), you're going to get drunk, so your troubles will seem less important, but you're also going to get warmer, because alcohol does that. When you stagger home (it's got to be a pub within staggering distance obviously) you collapse into bed and wake up to a cold bedroom. But that's also fine. Last winter I didn't use my CH at all! I have two oil-filled LX radiators, one upstairs, one downstairs. I moved them from room to room as required. Heating only one room is how our ancestors lived, not for a few decades, but for thousands and thousands of years (this year, due to the lack of subsidy, I will unfortunately be using my gas CH more). What's strange in fact is that we have normalised this idea (only normalised since the 1960s) that our whole house should be 20 degrees all the time. Look at any 1940s B/W film set in the UK: in the cold months the average family would spend the whole evening, together!, in the kitchen/dining room. No-one disappeared into their bedrooms for hours, or even into the "parlour", because all such rooms were blinking freezing for about 5 months of the year. That in fact is the normal way to spend the cold months in the island of Britain. With the Climate Emergency it's easier to do than for our ancestors as our winters can hardly even be qualified as true winters.
Or even better, move to a cage and make some wood fire. Cozy and elegant. 20°C in a house? We are living at 23-24°C inside temperature here in Romania. Man, how the wheels turned from 1989 between West and East Europe.
People are getting less hardy and acting like hothouse plants. I cannot breathe in heated homes with stale air and even in winter will sometimes sleep in my bed with the window ajar.
@@razvanlex I'm a very cold-blooded person. I would HATE to have my home at 23° in fact, and love it when what passes for winter these days comes around. "Wheels have turned"? Oh dear, this sort of national competitiveness sounds really naff in all circumstances. Some people in this world are much wealthier than others. I can't even be bothered to compare standards of living between the UK and Romania. If you're happy living in Romania, fine: who cares?
We bought a house with no access to gas. We already had an old oil boiler so we replaced it. The plumber suggested a heat pump and said he could do the work. It took 5 months and struggled to keep the house comfortable. Before the price increases we used the oil to get the house up to temperature, then switched over to heat pump because of the amount of electricity it used to run the pumps from cold. These days we avoid the heat pump because we can't predict the cost. Instead we use oil - we watch the kerosene prices and buy when it is cheap. That way we get no nasty surprises. From early spring to late autumn we have a conservatory which provides enough heat for the house.
We had oil then it got changed to LPG. Both around the same prices but we found that it lasted 3 months for only £400 during winter but the same cost for the rest of the year when the heating wasn't used.oil or lpg is better
@@christinehallett3197 The conservatory is double glazed with a heat retentive roof. It is heated by sunlight from late morning until mid evening.for most of the year. By late afternoon the temperature can be in the high 20s Centigrade, more in the summer months. We open the double access doors to allow the warm air to spread into the living room. Right now, 1.30pm, we are using no oil and 5 pence per hour electricity (fridges, computer) with a room temperature 2.19C.
So apart from it being mis-sold, and everything going wrong, and it being intolerably noisy, and it not working, and costing seven or eight times as much as the gas boiler that you still need anyway, it sounds great. Sign me up!
Hi Roger, my system works perfectly well and have absolutely zero complaints, its a refurbished and well insulated very old stone cottage. I'll try and get permission from my landlord but personally happy to show you round and give you my review after just over a year of using one.
O.K that would be good to see. You haven't had a hard winter yet but hopefully this year we will get a heavy snow fall and a few days of sub zero temperatures.
@@SkillBuilder I'd love to see that as well. I just bought on old stone cottage and need to decide how to heat it. Not on the gas grid and existing museum quality storage heaters probably not the best option. Go for it Roger. I'd also appreciate if you could help with information about oil and liquid gas alternatives. I believe they will be banned as new installation at some point in the future?
@@BenJandrellair to air is a different story as you're only ever going to be blowing warm air around rather than hot water. The killer of heat pumps is too much of a temperature difference between start and finish temp. You don't really have that problem with air to air. Hence how office buildings have had them for years.
This is an absolutely classic case. No disrespect to the owner and he is very brave to share his experience. There will be many cases like this unfortunately. It is highly likely there is no issue with the ASHP at all and this all down to the fact of bad or no system design (in the house). My guesses are : 1. No prior heat loss calculation. 2. No emitter sizing design. 3. Therefore hit and miss ASHP size calculation. 4. The underfloor was likely designed for the high temperature (gas) boiler and the pitch between loops means with the lower flow temperatures of the ASHP it is always likely to underperform. Finally - although the owners have decided to go back to gas (and I don’t blame them) it would be make for an interesting video if he called the Heatgeeks in for a visit and do a case study into the hydronics design.
This may well happen but the fact is that £18,000 into the project and relying on 'experts' he has an expensive unreliable heating system that he will now have to spend £ X XXX put right. It cannot be his fault.
@@SkillBuilder I never implied it was his fault, nor do I think I it was. It all reflects badly on the box shifting side of the heating industry - people being paid for skills they do not have, essentially fraud.
Its always a miss if you are trying to heat house with 35/30degree but radiators are for 90/70 degree system. Installers were just grabbing money and didnt care.
@@SkillBuilder For that kind of money, it wouldn't be much more to have a mechanical engineer with HVAC-specific experience review any plan. If you really just can't believe that air-source heat pumps work beautifully for many years at a time at extremely low cost, visit any west coast city in the US, go visit the highest-volume residential Mitsubishi ductless installer, and have them take you around and talk to those in the homes. Assuming it is the correct design for the home and that particular climate, as the OP references, they have little or no competition from other forms of heating and cooling in terms of efficiency and payback time. For example, there are small veterans' apartments publicly-funded in Bishop, California that run them in every unit, principally powered by solar installed on the roof, and they have been solid since day one. Sounds like you just don't have your engineering and supply-chain act together if you're not able to generate the same results.
We have an Esse Ironheart in the dining room. Three logs and six sticks and two firelighters light it immediately and it kicks out terrific heat. Another 10 - 12 logs will keep it burning all day. It has two hot rings for cooking and a wonderful oven for baking. Totally efficient and there is nothing that can beat coming in on a cold day and standing by the fire watching the flames flicker.
Interesting, I bought an 18th century farm in Sweden last year, the main house currently has a wood fired system, it works really well, heating the house beautifully with 70 0dd degree water, but, I need to be at home and load it three or four times a day when it´s cold which as you can imagine can be a bit of a pain, we have a guesthouse on a seperate system that is heated by burning grain, similar to a pellet or wood chip burner but converted for water damaged grain that I then dry with fans, this system is a bit more automated but I still have to service the burning unit once a week during winter and have to fill up the grain bunker as and when required so I am looking to install heat pumps within a hybrid system just to take care of that base heat level and boost when required. Being a Brit living in Sweden I found it hard to get the information I wanted but watching this video has made me confident I am thinking along the right path. Thanks mate! If you have any opinions on my setup I would love to hear them
A rational discussion between men of integrity, a rarity on this subject in these times. You are quite right to emphasise the ideological character of the problem. Sadly, this makes it all the more difficult for good sense to prevail, since ideological conviction is impervious to empirical evidence and therefore pathologically resistant to change.
Thank you ! We had been considering a heat pump but no longer, never thought about noisy fans and doubling the size of the radiators is a definite no, too intrusive. I imagine if you could be underfloor heating plus keep the gas boiler for instant hot water then it might fly…….but not for us thanks
We love you Roger! My husband and I always check your videos for advice on any home related issues, you have never let us down.Heat pumps won’t work for us in Scotland our temp can go down to - 9 degrees I can’t see a heat pump working for us in Scotland. We got a Bosch Worcester Greenstar Comfort II RF combi boiler it’s brilliant. Perfect for Scottish weather.😊
Excellent video. Thank you. It confirms what we discovered when we researched the system. Sticking with our solid fuel options. Don't mind felling old, dying trees & chopping logs to supplement coal products.
Tepid rads that heat your rooms only slowly…and providing you have no drafts…meaning no ventilation…meaning black mold forming unless you run dehumidifiers. Living in a sealed up house also means smells from cooking, farts and nasty socks can’t get out…lovely! It also means with heating off or a window open a crack for fresh air, the house chills down fast.
That is too simplistic. They do work in appropriate housing. We have to upgrade our building standards to make property the best fit for a heat pump technology.
Roger, I work for a company that designs and manufactures large air source heatpumps for commercial applications. As a private individual, I would be very interested to dissect John's unit to find out whether there was any underlying problem with it. The COPs quoted seem extremely poor unless the unit had major issues with ice build up and airflow. I can say from experience that defrost / UK cold weather performance is one of the more challenging aspects of heat pump engineering design.
Would definitely love to see HeatGeek and Urban Plumber take this on!! Would be such a great opportunity to prove that heatpumps do work when designed and installed correctly!
Would be absolutely amazing to see what they come up with. Hopefully the owner doesn't decomission the system so someone who really knows what they're doing can document it and publicise the findings, heat pump install post mortem style
I have 2 heat pumps and I disagree with this. It’s not just about a good design and install, they need to know when to say no it won’t work. I have 2 that work very well, but it does require very specific conditions to actually perform and the needed level to be on par with a gas boiler. They are far from the solutions for all homes
Air to water heat pumps in the UK are madness. We have 4x Air to Air units, super simple 1 unit inside and 1 outside all installed for £4400 (less than full wet central heating system). They have a SCOP of 4.2, and heat the room instantly - much faster than a gas boiler and rads. They also cool in summer Yet these systems are not eligible for any grant
Interesting. never heard of these before. But when I looked them up on 'Green match' web site they claim - ' The air to air heat pump cost for the average UK household of 2-3 people ranges from £9,030 - £20,070 (includes heat pump, installation, and annual maintenance). So were you saying it was 4* £4400 for your system?
Air to air heat pumps don’t get grants but are vat free for equipment and installation - just installed 2 for lounge and bedroom - very impressive so far
@@ianmatlock1 yes we have 3x 2.5kw (£1000 ea) units, one in each bedroom, and 1x 5kw (£1400) unit in open-plan ground floor All condensate is gravity drained and all units have the condenser directly behind them outside, so no trunking
@@davebaker4620 Brilliant tech, and always get max efficiency due to condenser & indoor being perfectly sized for one another, no buffer tanks, pumps, multi room temperature controls, seems madness to me!
I would imagine lots wouldn't get permission for having 4 outside units of the house as it would look hideous. Especially if it were a terrace. You couldn't have two units at the front of the house right ?
At the very least it would be interesting to have heat geek and urban plumbers survey the system and tell us what is wrong with it and answer the owners questions about how long it should take to warm up and whether you are supposed to leave it on whilst you're on vacation.
@@robmule4647 Who is my superhero? Bottom line is we see lots of videos from the channels above and others saying if a heat pump system is designed and installed correctly then it should work. And, unless these people aren't telling the truth then they probably do. However when we get cases where a heat pump isn't working then we need some experts to jump on that and tell us why and how it should have been designed / installed. Then there are more general questions like those posed above i.e. time to heat, do you need to leave it on whilst on vac or turn it on remotely a day before returning home etc.
@@robthomas7232 you have a very short memory. Heat pump geek can tell LG how to make a quiet head pump yes and get round to fixing everyone's heat pumps, he's magic like Santa
Hi Roger, I’m really glad you interview people with real experience rather than theoretical discussions. I’m also a similar age (probably a bit older) than you. I have a reasonably well insulated house and a 7 year old super efficient boiler Ideal Vogue 40HE, running on opentherm with an Evohome zoned setup. I’ve looked at solar panels and heat pumps and concluded I’d be long dead before any remote chance of payback. I’ll save more money buy running my current heating for the next 20 years if I’m lucky enough to last that long. I wish the government came clean about this, especially with older people, the investment in heat pump technology is not worth it. Why are they not investing in alternative low cost heating which suits the British weather? I believe Worcester Bosch did a successful conversion to Hydrogen where the cost of converting boilers was a fraction of the cost of heat pumps. They should s-end their effort on researching lower cost alternatives which are a lot less complex.
Hydrogen isn't the answer it is very difficult to work with and inefficient to produce, we have hundreds of years of natural gas under our feet and under the North Sea plus all the infrastructure already in place to pipe it to everyones home. Yet they want to import all our gas, switch to windmills for electricity to power heat pumps. It's insanity.
What a brilliant video. I've had exactly this same list of issues with exactly the same heat pump! One issue is that it is a high flow temperature model with two compressors in series, so the design COP is actually only 2.3 (my real world COP is more like 1.8). We've decided to transition to a wood pellet boiler instead while we work on rebuilding the house to improve the insulation (and then we might go back to a more efficient heat pump). Wood pellets have their own issues, but at least you get a decent flow temperature and you avoid crippling electricity bills.
Could you not run it at a lower flow temp and reap the benefits of this? Just because it's high flow temp doesn't mean you need to run it at high flow temps. Running lower temps would probably only use 1 compressor.
The current minimum guidelines for design COP is 2.7. I'm not sure when your heat pump was installed, but I question the competency of an installer who was willing to design to a 2.3 SCOP.
Pellets are expensive plus breaks down quite often after 4 years or so which is why my brother is taking his out and now has an air to air vented system which works well and has
@GregoryCarterUK The compressors are probably not in series, it's probably what's called a cascade system. In those you have two separate refrigeration circuits and one circuit's evaporator cools the other circuit's condenser. Either that, or if you have a CO2 heat pump then the compressors are actually in series, but I don't think CO2 heat pumps are available in the UK yet. Rather common in Japan though.
@@Vaelin404I have questioned them too! They are useless and suggestion everyone avoid (Climate Save Renewables). To be fair though, at the time (2019) I believe the minimum SCOP was lower than today.
You have to fix the fridge to the window frame so the fins are inside. It only pumps heat from a to b. Also the fridge would only pump a fraction of the heat you get from a heat pump.
Heat source pump = freeze your bollocks off while incurring a huge electricity bill 😂 When the sheep start running go the other way, I installed a wood burner 🔥, remember the rest of the world burn 8 billion tons of coal per annum, this guy being interviewed is a do gooding idiot trying to save the world 🤷
I'm grateful for this guy for being an early adopter. I think heat pump installations have improved a lot since then. You won't get the grant now without cavity wall and loft insulation.
There's a subtle point to this regarding the insulation requirement for the boiler upgrade scheme, you won't get it with an outstanding recommendation for cavity wall / loft insulation on your EPC. I.e. If you have solid walls where you cannot have cavity wall insulation, it would not be outstanding on the EPC and you will still be able to get the grant.
But in that case the EPC would recommend external wall insulation, I would assume? My EPC recommended floor insulation, so they will recommend any insulation that you don't already have. You can get the BUS grant with no outstanding recommendations for wall or roof insulation
We bought a new build 11 years ago which has an air source heat pump system. Honestly can’t fault it, it’s been great and never had an issue. Unlike a boiler system where the radiators come on and get very hot and then go off ours tend to stay on for longer and are just warm to touch. I prefer it to be honest because the temperature is steady all day instead of going up and down. Only problem I’ve found is finding a company that can service them.
Quick buy a lottery ticket, as you got great luck… my experience is heat pumps are too expensive to install, and never meet their cop ratings. It’s a con, to get people to move away from gas. It’s that simple get them away from using gas and they are gone, and the end user is left with high bills, high maintenance costs, and a badly performing heat system….. do not install you will regret it.
Very logical and clear. For older properties a heat pump can be seen as a supplementary system, so you run gas / heat pump side by side as a hybrid system to get the best of both worlds, for the planet and your pocket
Finally uploads of system evaluations over a long(er) period! I live rural in a 1840s house. Installed my own simple oil boiler but with a Hewlett-Packard computer regulating a heatvalve.I have internal and external sensors to regulate my preference in heat/comfort in different places in the house. Not only did it operate, without any major maintenance, beautifully already 25+ years, I have now parts for years to come, as all my (distant) neighbours are kicking them out, installing al these new fancy complex systems! The only negative point is, literally no plumber can or will help me out, if something fails. When i bought the HP, it was already 5 years laying on the builders merchant's shelf, as no plumber knew how to install it. As a futurist, i saw this crisis coming, the blind government helping the blind consumer, meaning a load of money for mr one eye!
Good bit of common sense there! I built my house in 1983 with modern insulation. I used to leave the gas boiler on full time (17 pence per therm 1983!) as I worked out that the cost of bringing the house up to temperature from cold with an on off system worked out little different . However that was when gas prices were small,(now over 100 pence) so I installed a wood boiler stove linked with a Dunsley neutral point to the gas boiler. I live on a farm so the wood is free apart from the work. The great thing about wood heat is that the work is done and you can really enjoy the heat as opposed to constantly fretting about valves and bills. Then installed a dozen solar panels which heats all the hot water through a normal (we live in hope!) Summer.
It's a shame we couldn't have a better look at the installation, what size pipes were the flow and return to the heat pump? Is there a sufficient flow rate going through the system? Also the heat pump looked quite close to the wall and it's installed in a fairly narrow side path so it might be recirculating cold air.
We are filming with Heat Geeks next week so watch out for their take on it. One thing they won't be doing it criticising the customer for not signing up to a £1.000 designers course before he engaged a company. Some of the comments on this video suggest that anyone who engages a company to install a heat pump should know more than the people they hire.
In Britain we find huge resources to determine what went suddenly wrong: inquiries into Covid, Grenfell, Hillsborough, Saville. And rightly so. We learn some lessons and try not to repeat past mistakes. But we don't learn to plan far ahead. The energy crisis and global warming has been creeping towards us for years. So we have a haphazard building and planning policy, poor housing stock and bewildered consumers. We have dodgy polititions giving dodgy money to dodgy institutions for the purpose of training and accrediting dodgy tradesmen to plan and fit complex technology before the next election. What can possibly go wrong? Stay tuned for the 2030 inquiry into the mis-selling of heat pumps.
I don't disagree with anything said, however it is clear they do not work well on homes not built with a heatpump in mind, or if they have been installed poorly. We have had a valliant arotherm 12kw heat pump for the last year or so now and have got on very well with it. In the last few weeks it has been getting a cop of around 4.3, thats at outside temps of 5-10°C and inside temps of around 19°C (we are comfortable at that temperature). It's installed in a newly converted barn conversion with underfloor heating all round down stairs and in the bathrooms upstairs. It easily makes our hot water to 45°C and once a week up to 65°C for legionella. So far we are very happy with it. It produces around 35kw of heat a day currently using around 8.1kw of electricity to do so and on our tarrif it costs around £1.50 a day for heating and hot water. I would highly recommend on a new build designed for it with underflpor heating etc, but not as a gas boiler upgrade without lots of insulation upgrades and radiators... We also have it doing cooling in summer and this has worked very well with fancoil radiators in bedrooms. Concerning the noise (I was genuinely supposed how quite it was) our one is whisper quiet and as it starts on an invertor (I believe all the new ones do now) it slowly ramps up when starting so it hasnt got a loud start up noise. We should also remember in hotter countries every house has Aircon which is just as noisey and we don't hear them complaining about it 🤷
My heat pump is 12 years old. Good as new. Works a treat. My 'secret' is that (a) I knew what I was doing and (b) it's an exhaust air heat pump with heat recovery and whole house warm air/ambient air/chilled air ventilation.
It's interesting reading all the misconceptions about heat pumps. It doesn't matter what building you have or what your level of insulation when comparing gas boilers to heat pumps in a like to like situation - you should still be able to run more efficiently with lower running costs than a gas boiler as long as you ensure a low flow temperature within the heat pump's efficient range. Take for example a draughty Victorian property in worst case winter with a central heating system running it's radiators flat out at 60°C continuously with a room temperature of 20°C, it's cold outside at -5°C and the heat loss from the property is 12kW. So the radiators are pumping out 12kW to balance the loss and keep the room temperature at a constant 20°C. So, the radiator to room delta T = 60° - 20° = 40°C. Now, if you double the radiator surface area and halve the delta T to 20°C you get the same 12kW of heat output but now the flow temperature is 40°C. That's well within a heat pump's efficient range with a COP = 3 consuming 4kW (12kW divided by COP of 3). Compare that to the previous gas boiler with its at best 90% efficiency 12kW/0.9 = 13.3kW (1.3kW goes up the flue). Looking at cost with electricity at 27.45p/kWh x 4kW = £1.09/hour And for gas: 7.05p/kWh x 13.3kW = £0.937/h That's worst case design and the costs almost match. At higher ambient temperatures the heat pumps weather compensation will reduce the flow temperature and improve efficiency considerably with a seasonal COP, or SCOP, of 4 or more whereas a gas boiler can't go above 90% efficiency. Re-running those figures for an SCOP of 4 gives the heat pump a running cost of 82.35p against gas costing 93.7p i.e. a saving of 12% with the heat pump over the year. The killer comes when you combine the heat pump with solar panels and a battery to drive it (you can't drive a gas boiler from electricity!). For half the year over summer there can be enough solar to run the heat pump entirely with zero bills and export the surplus solar at 20p to 30p /kWh to bank it in your electricity account and re-import it back in winter at a cheap rate 7.5p/kWh and store it overnight in your battery for use during the day. Overall you could be looking at a 75% reduction in running costs compared to gas and the whole system can pay for itself in seven years and again in the next seven etc. Compare that to a gas boiler when in the same time you'll have spent the same on gas as the capital cost of solar plus battery and a heat pump, but it will have gone up the chimney instead and you'll have nothing to show for it.
That is a lot of work to try to convince people of your perspective - Electricity has reached a point of expense whereby millions of people are simply not be able to afford to run such systems let alone buy them. I like your thoughts on running such a system on an old Victorian solid brick windy city kinda house....
@@martinp17Well, I thought it was worth pointing out that if a gas boiler can heat a property you can actually set up a heat pump to do the same job with cheaper running costs on electricity than the gas boiler on gas. You just need to keep the flow temperature low and you achieve that with bigger radiator surface areas. Insulation and draftiness apply equally to gas boilers as they do to heat pumps if the kW loss from the property is the same at the same room temperature which it will be. In fact in the follow up videos to this one Heat Geeks brought in by Skill Builder did exactly that - so lower running costs than the previous gas boiler once the errors on the first heat pump install were corrected. It pays to have the knowledge to make it work properly. With the £7,500 grant available now some people even get it done for free or at least a huge discount.
@@johnh9449 Look, the 7.5K grant is not much help when you could be facing having to bring your home up to EPC standard - which could potentially cost thousands of pounds, you then face a potential install fee of 20K + which would likely include all new radiators, ripping out the current system and goodness know what else. You also have to figure out a way of getting hot water - oh, this might be possible going back to 80 yo technology and having a hot water cylinder! I think potentially these systems might be worth looking at come 3/4th generation with further improvements but for old stock houses (about 40% being pre 1946) they are going to likely be a big expensive disappointment.
@martinp17 Look? I did. I read what you said and you have a point about the situation you describe but not everyone's situation is the same and it depends what they want to do too - like getting rid of gas or deciding what to do with any savings etc. The point I was simply trying to counter is the mistaken belief that heat pumps only work in well insulated houses and in poorly insulated ones boilers are needed for instead. That isn't true as I explained in detail. Heat pumps can run cheaper with the same heat output because of greater efficiency with lower flow temperature. I replaced all my old battered single panel radiators with double ones and installed a modern unvented 300L cylinder all for £6,000 and there was only a £5k grant available then. It runs far cheaper than the previous gas boiler. That's my situation. Granted someone without cavity wall and loft insulation would either have to do that first or proceed without the grant at a higher capital cost and that depends on their situation and motivation. Ultimately for more capital cost you can even also install solar with a battery to power the heat pump and end up with zero bills and the whole system pays for itself in a few years and a second time within its lifetime but that depends if you have savings to invest for the high returns but not everybody does of course. A forward thinking government could help there with such an investment for the benefit of the country if it gets serous about upgrading the housing stock. Perhaps things will move further to that end given that it pays for itself and gives energy security. There are already some steps in that direction with grants for solar etc. We'll see. Did you know in Italy you can get a 110% grant for such an upgrade - insulation, heat pump, solar plus battery - 100% the lot and 10% extra for your trouble. That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote.
@@johnh9449 'That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote' - don't hold your breath - I will consider anything that lowers my energy bill which is currently beyond scandelous - unfortunately we are likely in the minority (I am thinking that both you and I are at least in 'head above water shape' financially) I know too many people who are making really hard decisions about food v heating and in a way this kind of conversation is mute when really this type of system is just a distraction from the real issue which is affordable living. I wish you well.
"Let it grow organically" - the best words in this report. Having the State involved in most everything is a recipe for disaster - one for which we pay.
I worked in audio production for years. Never had an issue with heat pump noise, the latest ones a really quiet and often have a super quiet mode which you can set to operate at night for example if you are concerned, but honestly, never had any issues. A gas combi is far noisier when its running.
Do you actually have a heat pump? The issue I have with people saying they are quiet is they always record themselves standing next to them in the middle of the day with a microphone that’s probably optimised to cut out ambient noise. During the day we mentally filter out the huge amount of noise that is produced so we don’t notice it. Take being in a pub and having a conversation. Actually listen to the background noise and you realise just how great our brains are at it. So the relative noise of a heat pump during the day is minimal, but at night it’s going to be different, just how different remains to be seen once you have a ton of them running in your neighbourhood. What happens when something happens like in this instance where the fans are fubar and someone hasn’t got the £600 to fix them and won’t. Does environmental health get involved? Boilers do make a racket I agree but they aren’t on all the time. Personally I like heat pumps but if they annoy me what is the solution? Move? To save a tiny bit of co2 50% of power is produced by gas power stations at 33% efficiency, smacks of green washing to me.
I have a 14kw heat pump at the back of my house and there is no issue with noise, my wife is highly sensitive to noise and she would be complaining if there was a problem!
My cousin installed an air source heat pump for the swimming pool, and as you say it works really well. They put a massive ground source heat pump in a field outside their draughty, non-insulateable, grade I listed farmhouse. Their house is MUCH warmer than it was with the oil boiler because heating the house doesn’t bankrupt them.
I decided last year to go on a voyage of discovery and install my own heat pump. Although i'm happy with it now it took some time to work out the kink's and nuances. For me the key part of the process is the install, i found that just the controller on its own can give you a difference of 1-1.5 COP. i think heat pumps are good, but much like EV'S you cant just get in and drive!
Another great refreshingly honest video from the Skill Builder from the true perspective of a user over a decent period after the system has settled in. There are always good an bad points of any technology. If a salesman just emphasizes on the good like the Heat Geek then they obviously have a bias. Fortunately, even the Heat Geek Squad are honest enough to mention that there needs to be better trained installers providing a properly designed system and comprehensive pre-sales advice to any potential customers to ensure those property owners have all the information to weigh up before making an informed decision. Thanks to Roger and John for your great contribution to the construction industry !
This discussion was very useful and honest. I definitely am concerned about our energy use on the global environment, but the system you have , has to be useful and sensible. Proper installation and analysis of your particular situation is absolutely essential. Thank you for this.
It was interesting to get a perspective on the long term reliability and maintenance costs; the system is just so complicated. Having said that, the reliability on the simpler air-air units is better; we have a couple of air-air units, and the oldest one is over 10 years old and has never needed any attention other than filter cleaning.
I cannot understand why people use air to water HPs. Air to air is cheaper, easier to fit, more efficient, very reliable, less complex. I have a 7 year old system and it works down to -5C.
Let me add my ten cents worth... I live in central Spain, totally off grid. I´ve converted shipping containers which are heavily insulated both inside and out (5cm spray foam outside with fiber glass wool inside). I installed radiant floor heating connected to a propane gas boiler. As summers here get hot (45ºC ) I decided to install a heat pump to give me air conditioning, with the intention of just using the AC. The company that installed the heat pump were the same that installed the gas boiler to the underfloor heating. When the rep came round to my house, he initially refused to install a heat pump as, to quote him, he didn´t want to rip me off!! He thought I wanted the heat pump for heating too. He explained that I would need to DOUBLE my solar setup to handle the consumption, and even then I´d be using the generator a few days a year (this is sunny Spain, remember). I was gobsmacked as my setup is currently 16 x 550W panels and 20Kw of lithium batteries. (12,000€ with me doing all the installation myself). He said he was speaking from experience as they had actually been threatend with legal action the first time they did a totally solar installation due to under calculating what was needed. So I would need 32 solar panels (thing about how much space that takes up) and 40kw of battery storage just to run a heat pump. Sheer insanity.
I remember having a debate on Reddit a few years ago who wanted to force families into having heat pumps fitted to replace gas boilers. The man was utterly insane, the reality is heat pumps are NOT a substitute for a gas boiler.
Stumbled upon this video today. Found it very informative and useful. I've just had a funded install which seems to be running well, but I've already identified a few tweaks I'd like to make. This has helped me with some of the decisions I need to make. Many thanks. 😊
Although recently retired, I spent over 50 years working in house building. I've worked on houses with many different types of heating system, one thing I know is, fitting a 21 century heating system in a 20th century house will have many costly problems to overcome, and any government grant wont scratch the surface. designing new build houses with either air or ground source heat pumps is a much simpler task, so I really cant understand why the large national house builders are allowed to still build new houses with traditional gas fired central heating. it all comes down to cost.
Garbage, we live in a stone cottage built 1820 no damp course, heat pump way cheaper than our old combi boiler. You just need an installer that is competent in the technology.
If you've been in the business for over 5 decades, I'm sure that you are familiar with the phrase "builder's grade" - low spec equipment that can be installed quickly by a monkey with minimal training. The builder has little or no incentive to be concerned about future operating costs. As to why the practice is allowed to continue, it's politics. Show me one large national builder who doesn't donate to, and isn't on a first name basis with all the pols who make the rules under which he operates.
I totally agree. I live in an area where thousands of new houses are being built with gas central heating. How is that even legal? The government wants gas to be obsolete within about ten years so why is the gas network continuing to grow? People buying new homes should be warned to expect a massive bill for new heating systems inten years from now.
We have been using the LG heat pump for the past two years successfully now and I totally agree that you need to build your house around the system not the system around your house. We have finished the house in 2020 with very efficient building materials and 15cm polistyren around the walls, floors, roof etc. considering it was build in Eastern Europe. The moisture in the air is more heat pump friendly but the temps go much deeper below zero. We have spent about £9k for the system fitted in 50sq meeters detached house heat pump where the house is sitting in the middle of nowhere with no other option for source of heat. If I had a choice I would get the gas boiler instead 100%.
Tips for quiet fans: 1 Used hydrodynamic bearings. They are silent and don't wear out. 2 Use larger fans but don't run them so fast. In my experience commercial fans often spin so fast they create turbulence which is basically converting the energy into a load of noise and reducing performance. For an AC fan you can use a variable frequency drive (VFD). Just knock it back about 10% and you lose little in the way of airflow but it will run much quieter. 3 The blades of a fan can be shaped such that they create a vortex airflow. The ones I have, have a little bit missing on the tips of the blades. They are computer designed and very smart. The alternative is to replace the fans with underground pipes to suck in the heat from the ground. The temperature underground is out of phase with the temperature at the surface. At a distance of 8m you are 180 degrees out of phase, so summer is winter and winter is summer. This is ideally where you want your pipes. Generally speaking - use physics to solve your problems.
@@FirstLast-rh9jw I'll tell you what it looks like from my point of view. These British firms and workmen do not know what they are doing. They are poorly educated in the sciences and this is why everything fails so badly. This is why everything costs so much. The high tech super quiet fans i got hold of which work as described above were produced by a German firm. The Germans are much better engineers. It does not cost any more. It's a matter of designing it correctly in the fist place.
Nothing wrong with the fans fitted to those LG Heatpumps, they are vfd driven, blades are designed for efficiency and low noise. They get noisy when the coil freezes up disrupting the airflow. System design and application is the issue here.
I live in a 75 year old house. It originally had oil heat. That was replaced with electric baseboard heaters in the early '60s. A few years ago, I removed the vermiculite insulation from the attic and put in R30 fiberglass. (I had the vermiculite tested, and it was below 1% asbestos.) Now I'm having a Daikin mini-split installed. The baseboard heaters will be the backup. I've been using a window air conditioner in the summer, so this will be a tremendous upgrade. I also had custom glass doors made for the large stone old-style heatilator fireplace, so I can close the doors when the fire goes down at night. Due to ice storms, I have many years of oak to burn. I have a Mr. Heater propane heater if all else fails.
Around 18:05 " they're ideologically driven" Yep, couldn't agree more. We'll only make progress when it's recognised that the solutions aren't binary, aren't simple black and white. Unfortunately dogma drives too much of chosed directions. As your guest correctly pointed out identifying what would work best for a given property scenario and then deploying it would almost certainly yield much better aggegrate outcomes than the one size fits all mentality which presently only allows focus on certain options ie heatpumps. Not hating on heatpumps, I'm planning a renovation at the moment and will have a h/p on the short list but am aiming for fabric first then to see what will best service the resultant thermal requirements.
There’s a common theme running through all the stories about heat pumps that don’t work - bad design and installation. This I would say is quite common amongst the trades in the UK, they’re stuck in the past and don’t like anything ‘new’, and will almost deliberately do a bad job because they refuse to learn how to do it properly. Despite a bad installation, I’ve managed to get my ASHP running rather well. We will still be using gas boilers in 2050 because we don’t have a workforce that is willing to adapt.
This is what happens when the government incentives come into play. All these "traditional" HVAC companies jump on the band wagon with the new technology and they don't know what they are doing. The design and installation needs to be done properly for it to work. We had this issue in Canada when we had incentives for ground source heat pumps. There were all these companies popping up and trying to install ground source heat pumps. Then we were left with a bunch of systems that weren't designed properly and people thought it was the heat pump that was the problem.
This video once again brings into focus how important good specification and installation are when considering a heat pump; I do hope it doesn’t people off having one as they can be very successful - we installed ours in 2022 and it has reduced our energy costs compared to the previous gas boiler! Heatpumps have also improved compared to 5 years ago. I agree that hybrid installations can be good for big old poorly insulated houses, hopefully the government will relax the requirements to take out the old boiler in order to get the grant. Having a remotely controllable heatpump would avoid the issue of the house taking two days to warm up after a fortnight away - one can schedule it to come on 2 days before your return.
Hybrid is exactly my issue, house is 120 years old with over 3000 square foot of area and high ceilings, so I accept it can eat heat like a beast! However I have already had the whole house up and down fully under floor heating fitted, so thought an ideal match for a heat pump. I could run the whole system at 40 degrees right out of the box... Only the heat calculations say I need a heat pump capable of outputting 17Kw on the coldest day -2C outside to maintain +20C inside (or something similar) Now I do not want to go three phase and all that messing about with industrial grade units, and forget finding a heat pump on single phase that will crank that out on a cold day. Naturally I thought I will just keep my oil boiler for when it is really cold... but oh no, gonna cost you to go that route... quotes are currently £18K+ with no grant. They should support hybrid systems, as I estimate the heat pump would do 95% of all the heating requirements even if a lower spec unit was fitted. Oil is a ball ache to get delivered on time and the price fluctuates wildly... so who is going to choose that if they can help it?
What’s to stop you having the boiler removed put to one side the pipes capped off with push fit and then reinstalled for a few hundred pounds? Tbh having a hybrid system sounds nice but you are still stuck with the standing charge which now costs as much as it used to for heating consumption. It’s all a mess in my opinion.
@@davideyres955 its oil so there is no standing charge. The problem is the heat pump installers are not legally allowed to install and commission a grant based system if it cannot cope with the heat calcs
@@kaya051285 To be honest I can, the home already has 8 other A/C heat pumps which do heat (but were primarily installed for cooling in the summer) however the installers are “not allowed” to let you have an under powered main (air to water) system fitted… rules are rules apparently!
I had a Bosh ground source heat-pump system that was too complicated for its own good and never seemed to generate enough heat. I moved to a property with a 1997 Worcester oil fired boiler. It's not condensing but is certainly able to generate enough heat and is very reliable.
Good example of a poor install, you would get the same with a poor install of a gas boiler except it would probably cost more to run. We have the same LG Therma V 9kw mono block installed 2 years ago in our 1963 detached bungalow. It replaced the old Grant combo oil burner (smelly thing) and its was swap outed in a day and half no new rads added, no new pipe works, no extra insulation, it all works off the old system and gives us 20c all day long. Obviously our home is not ideal, but when the temerature dropped to -8c it did struggle to keep up with the losses. We knew this so invested in battery storage to help shift the cheap energy over to the day time use, and added Infrared Panels to run off our solar on cold sunny days. YOU ARE WELCOME TO COME AROUND AND INTERVIEW ME! So long as you publicises it!!!!!!!!!!! My question is why did you not invite the Heat Geeks round to investigate and fix this gentalmans problems? Hmmm probably because it does not fit in your agenda!!
Really interesting video. I do think the issue around these installs is lack of knowledge from heating engineers and lack of governance around the grant system. I think roger makes a good point in that the grants are poorly awarded and the guy being interviewed specifying a criteria based on home ages or something makes a lot of sense. Would it be possible to do a follow up with heatgeek for them to review the system to highlight the mistakes made by the installers so we can all learn even if not changing anything?
@@robmule4647install issue causing heat pump to ice up too early will clog the coil with ice which in turn increases fan noise as air isn't moving through properly.
@@richardc1983 you must all be the same person.... The noise from the fan hitting ice was temporary, it isn't the noise that made the neighbours move bedrooms which is the noise I refer to.
@@richardc1983 what was the noise? Quite an annoying one by the sounds of it. If you don't believe the guys on camera account why would someone believe yours through a comment?
Firstly, heat pumps have been round for many years. The first system I was involved with was an air to water system in 1983 so it’s not new technology. Even then, it was known that buffer tanks were necessary so to have one installed now is unbelievable. There’s no reason in this day and age for installers to get it wrong and provide the best advice to customers. Poor selection and poor design really should not be problem. That people have these problems now is down to poor regulation and qualifications of installers. The other thing that amazes me is that new 18:08 houses are being built and they have neither heat pumps or solar PV or solar thermal as a building regulation requirement. We have estates of housing locally with prices up to £600k which don’t have these systems. Amazing!
I had an ASHP installed in February '23. Run alongside a PV 8kw solar array and 20kwhr batteries. The property is grade 2 listed stone built barn conversion. So far I am not finding problems like those described. The weird thing is the house is like Goldilocks porridge neither too hot or too cold. The internal temperature varies a little but is stable within a narrow range. I am using a flow temperature of about 36 and a return temperature of 28-30. With weather compensation.This provides stability between 19-21 degrees. My system triangulates the outside temperature rather than a direct reading and internal temperature is calculated by an algorithm based on outward and return temperature. So far it all provides an estimated COP of 4+ based on the system's internal thermistors. The combination of solar batteries and ASHP means that over a year the house is almost carbon neutral. Total power costs for a 200 sq metre property are expected to be between £1,500 and £2,000. The return on capital is 12-15% based on current projections. Since domestic collar production is exempt from income tax factoring this into the mix makes it an excellent investment. Certainly better for the environment and your pocket than an electric car.
Andy You have yet to use your new heating system in cold weather. It will be interesting to see your figures after 3 or 4 years. You can't build models on half a season.
@@SkillBuilder Well my system which sounds of similar size at least as far as PV is concerned kept my room temperature at a constant 23° C through last winter. So far this year I've generated 6.5MWh and consumed 7.11MWh to run the heat pump and domestic loads.
@@SkillBuilder February was fairly cold where I live! I'd love to see you follow up this video with a trip to one of these successful installs. Use your obvious knowledge, and good explanation skills to go through why it was a success.
yes that is exactly what we have found. five years in and we have a steady 20 and its amazing. You don't 'really get' the way it functions efficiently in an old building. old buildings need a steady heat. You shouldn't turn it off.
The great thing about these sort of videos is the diversity of opinion. Opinion versus actual facts of users, so we have an array of positive versus negative and that’s great for people like me contemplating converting. We need to have all facts to make an informed decision. Thanks for posting.
But the users can only report the 'facts' of their installation, and if it has been botched, then their experience isn't relevant to someone who has access to a competent installer. It does highlight what can go wrong, but there were plenty of things went wrong with gas boilers when they were introduced.
@@tlangdon12 the one eyed man is king in the valley of the blind, what the series of Skill Builder on heat pumps show is the need for competent trained skilled people. Botched installs exist in all professions sadly and the poor unsuspecting public pay the ultimate price.
As per usual everything the customer explained was down to the design and installation, not the heat pump. Like everything if it’s not designed or installed correctly then of course it won’t work, that’s not the heat pumps fault I’d suggest in this case the installer didn’t do a proper heat loss and the heat pump was undersized and the system wasnt set up correctly as a bi-valent system. Daikin would not say put in the sun/south elevation, in fact it would be the opposite, please check your facts. If your not sure who said it don’t throw a manufacturers name out there
@@robmule4647 the noise from what he was saying was caused by the unit icing up and the fans clipping it. which is a design issue. The noise is could be the fan motors or compressor being screwed due to the unit working it’s nuts off. Brands such as LG, Mitsubishi, Daikin, Samsung & vailllant are quiet, so I bet this heat pump is knackered because of the way the system was designed and installed nearly 6 years ago. It can’t be a coincidence that the installer has gone bust!! I deal with many good installers who’s been installing Heat pumps for over 10 years and are still trading.
@@paulhutchinson323 you obviously didn't watch the video very closely. Noise from the ice and general long term increasing noise (from the LG unit) that forced the neighbours to move bedroom was very separate noise issues. One temporary from ice one long term.
Great video. I learned a lot. In 1990 I had an air con unit fitted which was amazing working in reverse for air heating with a COP of 3 lots of heat even in icy weather. millions are used to heat apartments in China effectively and cheap. But warm water will not heat radiators effectively. I have been thinking about a heat pump but obviously there are still to many bugs in the system and you are in the hands if a good or bad installer. Thanks a lot!
My last house had an air to air heat pump and it was great for 9 months of the year but for three months it was freezing most of the time and i had to use fan heaters and i also had to pour hot water over the base of the external unit as the ice used to build up on it and hit the fan as the defrost water from the coils simply froze in the base. The point is they don't provide heat when actually required in the depth of Winter and so are not a solution for home heating.
I am concerned also about old people. They can't wait 3 days for their homes to warm up. some of them have already fallen down the stairs waiting for their energy saving light bulb to be bright enough for them to see where there going. it's not fit for purpose. and no I am not sponsored by energy companies!
Hi Roger.. I really enjoyed your conversation with John. I actually watched it in reverse to the followup one when The Heat Geek (Adam) was on site. You guys really nailed it and I am now sooooooo happy I never went with a heat pump underfloor heating system. I am living in rural South Australia in an offgrid situation (power/water etc) pretty much like a modern Earthship. When I designed the house I was really concious about power consumption especially heating in the colder months. I have a 20Kw LIPO with 14Kw solar panels system and it is balanced and works really well. But relating to the heat pump, I wanted the most energy efficient heating device for the underfloor heating system (circulated water/hydronic) possible. That includes the system cost. I simply went with hot water storage just like a normal domestic HWS. I heat the foor all day with solar excess power and consume the tank during the night. I get 24 hours of slab heat from one session of energy transfer. So it is good until the next day when the tank is hot again. In really cold situations I boost the HWS with a water jacket on the wood stove. I guess my real comment is that you work you ideas so well. I am a subscriber now but originally came to your channel for info about rendering and concrete work. Keep up the good work mate. Cheers from down under where it is Summer. Keep warm. Regards, Gary
I'm a Chartered Building Services Engineer with CIBSE, UK. Monovalent Domestic Heat Pump applications require engineering design input, from the outset. No different to commercial applications. Energy Assessors and Plumbers are not Engineers, and homeowners are not willing to pay for design input, from an experienced professional. I designed my neighbours system, for a new 4-bed detached house, with underfloor heating throughout. It was just a challanging as any commercial system i've designed. They are a great source of heat, if applied correctly, to the right home, thats had sufficient thermal fabric upgrades. Any supplier/installer should be MCS Certified
Our old oil boiler (from around the late 90’s) was on its last legs a couple of years ago, we ended up replacing it with a Grant. The very knowledgeable heating engineer we use had just done a training course in heat pump system installation and I asked him if he would recommend it for our house (built 1910, mix of stone and brick), his advice was ‘absolutely no way’.
All these issues screams install issues to me. Unit icing up too early and coil blocking up will reduce airflow and will increase noise of fans. I have an LG System and mine works great, mine is air to air. The fact all the rads needed upgrading suggests your installer didn't have a clue. Get heat geek and urban plumbers involved to see what's wrong.
@@FirstLast-rh9jw No different to installing a boiler which only a gas-safe engineer can do... the problem is no one has done the training properly and you have plumbers installing these heat pumps thinking they are a like-for-like replacements. Common sense says that at 40c flow temp you are not going to get the same heat output on your radiators than you would at 80c flow temp on your rads (what they were designed to do)
@@FirstLast-rh9jw It’s not NASA level engineering. Heat loss calculations and the mass flow calculation together with pipe sizing. It’s about O level standards.
The fact that all the radiators needed updating, but they didn't update any of them confirms they were clueless. A proper design would have revealed the large heat loss from the old part of the property, and the need to increase the size of the radiators (or add more radiators). If this had been done, John could have looked at the size of the radiators needed and decided that he didn't want to devote that much wall space to radiators or considered underfloor heating as an alternative.
33:43 - It looks like the back of the heat pump (HP)'s outside unit (evaporator) is way too close to the building wall - but it's difficult to tell from the video. It looks like only about 100mm.... If it is too close (and the manufacturer recommends a *minimum* of 300mm - 1 foot for this size HP) this could easily be causing the ice build up issue, not to mention excessive fan noise.
Simple old reclaimed electric storage heaters off peak, coal and wood stoves and a big immersion tank. Lots of rigid board insulation in loft and walls. Simple and cheap to install, nothing fancy to go wrong. No clever digital electronics. No gas at all. Any defects easily fixed. Boring but cheap and effective.
And no need for an annual service or expensive "service plan" insurance that, when you need it, will tell you your boiler is obsolete or unrepairable (probably because a generic thermocouple is not available for that model)
Which is pretty much the setup in the house I purchased in 2015. However in my case I swapped out the storage heaters for a heat pump with underfloor and radiators and halved my electricity bill and have a warm house all year round. The storage heaters were a nightmare in the spring and autumn when a lack of sensible controls meant that I had to open doors and windows to dump the expensively acquired excess heat. also now have hot water at a fraction of the cost before. Fuel prices going through the roof over the last couple of years have meant that the system has already covered the install cost.
I do have heat pump at home in addition to combi boiler. I bought one of the most efficient one and its still no where close to economical ! The new extension part I used heat pump and old part and hot water most of it on Combi. I just did this way as an experiment. In the winter, I had the icing issue when it was 4c out side and at that temp and below it becomes extremely inefficient almost 1kw to get 1kw heat. and the noise sometimes can be very annoying the humming noise. I would say if anyone refurbishing - 1. Do the Pipeworks for heatpump 2. Have a utility room or boiler room with space for future hot water cylinder 3. If no gas available then get the heat pump BUT make sure to check the efficiency at low temperature. This is buried in tech spec but you can find it. 4. Put heat pump in area with good air circulation 5. Keep the gasboiler as long as you can I do have overseas property where in winter its constantly snow and -10 to -20 and we only have heat pump and it works there fine. The heat pumps there are much better quality efficiency in cold is way much better than the 2nd class junk sold here . Also people know how to fit them properly and the properties are very well insulated.
A COP of less than 2 might as well just get electric radiators put your 16k into a high interest account and it will cover the difference and you keep the 16k. What a joke.
Absolutely, high heat storage retention heaters, I've just got an EV leccy tarriff 9.5p per kWh overnight will save a fortune. We are going back to the 1970's!
A heat pump that has been fitted correctly will have a cop of least 3, from the limited camera shots of the installation it would appear that it has been poorly fitted. My biggest concern is the site of the heat pump which looks tight to the wall, it's 22kw so it would require very good air flow around the heat pump.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
See our follow-up video with Adam from Heat Geek: ruclips.net/video/1rKNT7-42J0/видео.htmlsi=lLdm5_o4P8s3jBoJ
Gas costs 6.25p kWh and electricity 25p kWh (4x more) so you need a COP of 4 to break even. Only central planners could think these things are efficient!
I fitted four ashps to our house and neighbouring b and b in 2012 one died after 7 years one died after 9 years. Gone back on oil, use the survivors for hot water when the weather is warm but not sunny.
They are very expensive to run. I'm a qualified but not practicing energy assessor. Fitted them all myself. We also have two solar thermal arrays a 4kw solar pv array and a 6kw wind turbine. Solar thermal is unbelievable in the summer. The most impressive of them all.
can you pin that as people arent seeing the fix.
Love how your sat with foot on strangers sofa😆😓
We lived in a flat with wonderful heating. We ran the gas an hour a day and we had hot water and plenty of warmth. Then at Christmas the old couple in the flat below turned off their radiators and went away. We nearly froze and had the gas on continuously until they came back.
🤣
OOOOpppps🤣🤣
You should warn the old couple of the dangers of burst pipes from no heating, the next time they plan to go away lol. In fact they should turn it up a notch just in case.
Good luck finding who will service it.
Ha ha ha ha 😂😂😂
I am a Retired Plumber and Gas Safe Engineer , and I still have my 18 year old Worcester 28i Junior Conventional output Combi Boiler and I have no plans to replace it !
me too. 43 years in the trade.
I have a Wochester boiler, and was told the model I have is decrepit and I won’t be able to get parts for it anymore. It’s over 30 years old.
Plan the same
Mines the same installed in 1994
I have the same potterton baxi boiler in my outbuilding that was there when I bought my house over 30 years ago.
I fitted a ground source heatpump 16 years ago and had a similar experience to this guy. My installation was £20k then and the pump packed up within 2 years. Although my house was brand new and had underfloor heating throughout it was utterly useless unless you enjoy a cold house and cold showers. Fortunately like this chap I had an oil boiler to assist the HeatPump. After the pump stopped working I just bought another oil boiler for a tenth of the price of the HeatPump and the house and hot water is lovely and warm. Buy a HeatPump at your peril.
Oil's very expensive compared to other sources though
I do wonder how so many people can be duped into spending 10+ years' worth of energy bills on a new system, to 'save money'
@WreckItRolfe no it not, since Ukraine oil is much cheaper per kwh, the main issue with oil is the outdoor space needed for oil tank and burner
One of the problems never mentioned is the noise. A friend has a couple of neighbours who have installed air source heat pumps and the low frequency noise is annoying, particularly at night. Thank you for mentioning this! It is a real problem.
I apologize if I'm your friends neighbor. The damn thing sounds like a jet landing.
Heat pumps and wind turbines.
@@therealrobertbirchall- the general public are being used as the test bed for all this technology and paying handsomely for it and the government cronies are making lots of money.
A house 5 doors down has ASHP and we keep our bedroom windows closed every night because we
can hear the noise from the outside unit . Now imagine if every house had this going
Can’t believe people have fallen for hear source pumps 😂, it’s utter bollocks 🤷, a friend of mine is now installing a wood burning stove after his wife moaned she was freezing cold and their electricity bills went through the roof!!!!, my dog is laying in front of my wood burner roasting his chestnuts😂, this guy talks bollocks about clean air when the rest of the world is burning 8 billion tons of coal a year 😂
He has much, much more patience and tolerance than I could have.
He has enough cash to keep getting contractors in when problems crop up.
He's committed to the woke crap, can't turn back now.
Ive met people just like him, nice chap but loves to boast to his mates down the local about saving the planet, drives home (after a few) in hi V8 Jag
I got a quote for an air source heat pump last year, they recommended solar panels to power the system, the total price was £24k, after government incentives it worked out at close to £17k. The salesman warned me that the system would struggle to produce heat at an outside temperature of -10 to -15 degrees. I live in Scotland and although it’s a rare occurrence I realised I’d be paying a ton of cash for a system that wouldn’t work when I needed it the most… I still have my gas boiler
You did the right thing, it's an absolute con to suggest that solar PV will run a heat pump in the winter months when you need the heat pump most. So much miselling and half truths being used to sell these systems.
Keep the gas boiler as it is, or use oil boiler if you can get a good deal on oil. but take the solar panels offer so you can make electric to run your house during the day. That's the best combination in Scotland. If you have the space, and money, you could ago get a mini wind turbine to make more power when windy. But keep away from heat pump..
Nothing wrong with gas, coal or diesel. Follow the money... climate change my eye... garbage.
I wouldn’t have one in a gift 😂😂
24k is a mad amount of money.
Only point it’s probably ever viable if it comes with a new build house.
But if you have to pay 24k, how long would it take to break even? Couple years from death 😂
I am a retired heating/plumber engineer and i have a large edwardian house. 5 bed .I installed a potterton cast iron floor standing gass boiler ,balanced flue in 1984 and i have no intention whatsoever of replacing it and my gass bill are not too bad , my house is warmer than the adjoining property .
Christ I had one of those years back, every so often just need to replace the igniter.
We rented a house for a year, the central heating played up so we told the landlord, a big fat plumber came around kicked the pump, Brrrum. he cleaned the Impeller and said let me know if it happens again. It was at least fifteen years old then and we bought the house, we then lived there twenty six years with no problems. Ideal Mexico boiler.
Environmentally friendly, these idiots are just that.
Retired electrical and electronic engineer. Simplicity is divinity and reliability.
Agree. If something is too reliable it simply doesn’t have enough features.
Yup, take a look at the later videos where they take the complexity out and fix the issues
Agreed.
Over specialize and you breed in weakness.
I bet he bragged to his 'friends' and neighbours and talked down to them when he was getting it fitted
I bet he voted for Kier Starmer too
One of the best videos, to not get a heat pump, i shall pass this on to my landlord, our gas combi boiler is a gem, easy to use.
I did the math for my house , new gas boiler 7 years ago for £2500. £70 service once a year and a full service today for £150. Spent £700 last year on gas for all our heating and hot water- 4 bed detached house.
'Maths' please.
@ . Sorry, I went all yank for a moment, don’t know what came over me 😂
@@bordersw1239glad you said sorry instead of 'my bad'.
😂😂😂😂
I didn't expect to sit through half an hour on heat pumps, but you both spoke very well, and i enjoyed that! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it! Not many people stay the course
As they say , " Every day is a school day "
Great video, the size of the radiators says it all, trying to make heat form an inadequate System.
As a heating and aircon engineer for 40 years I'd never touch a heat pump with a barge pole. Basically a heat pump is a refrigeration or aircon unit working in reverse. All it does in principle is move heat from one place to another. Aircon takes heat from inside and dumps it outside, heat pumps take heat from outside and dump it inside, reverse cycle heat pumps work either way. Just think about it, if it's minus 5 outside how much heat are you going to pick up from outside to dump inside? The other problem is that the flow temperature through the radiators with a heat pump is getting on for half of what you get from a gas boiler in cold weather, hence you need huge radiators to get the same output. Underfloor heating needs lower flow temperatures so that's less of an issue, but you need to run it 24/7. It's all a load of nonsense unless you build a new eco house with virtually no heat losses.
But Herr Starmer and his butt pal Milliband say we have to install them or they will make our lives misery.
Hi, I was apprenticeship trained by Prestcold, the biggest refrigeration company at the time, and went into air-conditioning and later installing the first UK and the later we'll known japanese heat pumps, and all struggled, they got better but I moved on to service and commissioning and wrongly designed and installed plus bad commissioning are a major factor with problems. My home as solar panels a 52 kW kerosene boiler running my central heating, two mulit burning stoves and four heatpumps, with a computer that turns off all heat pumps at 6 centigrade. I still wake up after a nightmare dreaming about trying to fix heatpumps and facing cold customers.
Good point about water flow rate and size of radiators needed to produce enough heat!
if it's minus 5 you have about a 25 degree delta. If it's +20 you have a 50 degree delta. So I'd say it's about 1/2 as good at -5.
I have an aircon system that also operates as a heat pump and it is insanely expensive for heating when it gets cold outside. Having to rely on that for your only source of heat must be a nightmare.
What a patient guy.
Moral of the story, 'Don,'t Bother'
More, it's still in it's infancy in this country. for early adopters only
My 10 year old airmec heat pump started frosting over last years.After 4 different engineers came round finally workd out the mother board had failed thus not allowing the unit to go into defrost mode.problem solved! The main problem with heat pumps is the fact that you can find an installer in 2 minutes on Google but finding someone who knows how to repair them when they go wrong well that's another story.
Hope you dont mind sharing how much was the cost of the repair ?
@@DavidJones-ge1mn
Never replied.
Tells you everything.
Ive got an 8kw misubushi air sourced pump. Totally agree with what the guy in the video said, the vanes start freezing up at about 3C. Yes it does go into defrost mode which works but then freezes up again 20 minutes later. In fact it gets so bad I turn off the heat pump in winter and use a wood burner. Also very difficult to find someone to come and fix it.
As we heard in the video, many of the problems were caused not by the technology itself but by poor installation, inadequate maintenance and inappropriate expectations as regards to the heat requirements of the older part of the house. You have to insulate. Most UK builds are shockingly low on insulation. Even the new ones. That is purely down to inadequate government policy over the last 20 years, and especially the last 14 when grants and incentives were simply not available. The other major factor is heat recovery ventilation. UK houses traditionally are draughty as hell to dry them off and ventilate the fumes from coal burning, our traditional fuel. The installation of gas boilers has not been accompanied by installation of heat recovery. Because UK is so wet and likely to get wetter there is enormous heat inertia with any heating system the extra heat required to dry things out. Just insulationg and draught proofing can just seal the house up and then you get damp so you have to open windows and it's bye bye heat. Profiteering from private sector builds has left UK with a huge retrofit problem. Who is having to pay for this scandalous failure of public policy? The individual property owner of course.
@@holgre3470
Or we just stick with the technology that works.
Rather than chasing this pipe dream of lessened environmental impact in a nation which contributes less than 1% of greenhouse gases.
We've done our part - it's time for major polluters to follow suit.
I really loved this video. Such a relaxed, informative and above all genuine chat about heat pumps. It's really good, I love all your videos, keep up with the good work.
It just goes to show as a consumer of renewables the biggest task is finding an installer you trust, recommended by others, who should remain in business for the foreseeable future and likely to be around to fix stuff and honour warranties
I wanted a heatpump . Changed my mind I keep my oil boiler lreland . Thanks
The southern US has had heat pumps for decades and it works great. Ireland is even more mild. You need duct work though.
Well done to Roger for continuing to have an open mind. A big well done to John for leading the way and doing what you've done. Hopefully you get sorted.
And in the words of Roy Keane, Adam is doing his job.
Can imagine waking up at 3am and listening to hundreds of them humming across my densely packed housing estate. Together with battery cars, what a nice life people will have in the second half of this century.
I read a study about that impact of white noise, on people's mental health. It explains a lot. I have sensitive hearing for any annoying vibration sounds. I can't sleep if I hear something like that.
Densely packed heatpumps will also be fighting each other as they emit cold air which reduces efficiency of neighbouring heatpumps.
They are not the future .
This guy has basically proven that you don't put in a heat pump. You put in a heat pump system. Weather comp, proper heat loss survey, heat pump specced for proper output based on radiators and weather comp curve, hot water considerations, the lot.
It's a rare house that's going to just be a simple swap, for all the reasons cited including the "swingy" British weather
A more educated consumer could have avoided 99% of this. I’m in the same climate. Very happy with my purchase. Only downside is the house temperature isn’t as stable as it used to be. It’s an old leaky house so the cold leaks in. All the while the pump is trying its hardest not to “overwork “ or use the backup resistance heat. Therefore the actual indoor temperature lags a degree. Small price to pay but I’m confident this would barely be noticeable in a new build.
To be clear, in no way was I attempting to blame this on the homeowner. I don't think anyone else should either. He went early-ish on and fell afoul of things he was necessarily trusting others to have expertise in, like we all have to do.
The lesson here is just make sure you are getting a variety of quotes and do enough research to be able to know what questions to ask, because it's complex, but that doesn't have to mean it's not right for you.
This video is a valuable thing to have out there for that purpose.
The thing we need is a proper accreditation scheme for this. Until there is one, get a heat geek trained fitter because they are taught all this detail, seem very well respected and my experience with one for my heat loss survey and quote was excellent. I'm sure other companies are good, but heat geek are really trying hard for the training angle to be the best they can possibly make it.
I had two gas boiler installations in the last three years, done by two different professionals (registered with professional bodies). Both badly installed that led to problems not discovered until later. It doesn't matter what the technology. If professional incompetents are doing the install then problems will occur. One problem is that there is so much incompetence in the UK that the more new or complex the technology, the less likely the trades will know how to fit them properly and with those arrogant or careless enough to think they don't have to keep learning, or read instructions, then problems result. I also had an EV charger fitted by a professionally registered electrician. He left it with an RCCB fitted where it should have been an RCBO. Electrician with years of experience and he never even realised an RCCB did not have over current protection. God knows what dangers are out there because of him. The trades in this country are utterly dire because no one checks their work.
Beware noise pollution leaky not so well insullated houses besides radiator replacement and gone bust contractors
A great practical advice interview. Any body considering a heat pump should listen to this first.
We have a air source heat pump installed by local authority in our rented one bedroom semi bungalow five years ago. We don't use the hot water part as it's too expensive. The air source really struggles when outside temp gets below 10 degrees Celsius and because its electric very expensive. So my advice to anyone is think again! Our bungalow was built in the fifties and has cavity insulation and loft has about 30cm insulation. Arty
Good honest statement confirms everything ive ever thought about these piles of expensive junk. Thanks.
And our experience was very different. 2 bed bungalow, similar age, and it worked great for the entire time we lived there. no issue with heating even when it got to -10C
Well i live in a 2 bed 50s bungalow. There are many cons ( pardon the pun) with these systems. Expensive to install, not many engineers qualified to service or fix. These things can spend a lot of time defrosting due to moist outside air freezing on the evaporator. They just dont give enough heat to properly power conventional radiators and so on. Ex refrigerator engineer talking. @@djenson
@@Doug.... The only time the defrosts noticeably tanked the cop is when it snowed and it started to suck snow into the condenser. agree with your other points. even ours was initially misconfigurad.
Well i didnt want to get into a slanging match me old mate. Im truly glad you had a good experience with your system 👍 As an observation it doesn't seem that long ago when Roger did a video initially and didnt have a good word to say about these systems ! Regards @@djenson
I think the answer to this is to forget about heat pumps but to go down the pub more. When you're down the pub, especially for a very long time, enough to make a difference to your utility bills (if you turn the heating off 30 minutes before you leave home), you're going to get drunk, so your troubles will seem less important, but you're also going to get warmer, because alcohol does that. When you stagger home (it's got to be a pub within staggering distance obviously) you collapse into bed and wake up to a cold bedroom. But that's also fine.
Last winter I didn't use my CH at all! I have two oil-filled LX radiators, one upstairs, one downstairs. I moved them from room to room as required. Heating only one room is how our ancestors lived, not for a few decades, but for thousands and thousands of years (this year, due to the lack of subsidy, I will unfortunately be using my gas CH more).
What's strange in fact is that we have normalised this idea (only normalised since the 1960s) that our whole house should be 20 degrees all the time. Look at any 1940s B/W film set in the UK: in the cold months the average family would spend the whole evening, together!, in the kitchen/dining room. No-one disappeared into their bedrooms for hours, or even into the "parlour", because all such rooms were blinking freezing for about 5 months of the year. That in fact is the normal way to spend the cold months in the island of Britain. With the Climate Emergency it's easier to do than for our ancestors as our winters can hardly even be qualified as true winters.
Or even better, move to a cage and make some wood fire. Cozy and elegant. 20°C in a house? We are living at 23-24°C inside temperature here in Romania. Man, how the wheels turned from 1989 between West and East Europe.
People are getting less hardy and acting like hothouse plants. I cannot breathe in heated homes with stale air and even in winter will sometimes sleep in my bed with the window ajar.
Have you tried heated clothes. I have rechargeable heated trousers and vest for riding my motorcycle.
@@razvanlex I'm a very cold-blooded person. I would HATE to have my home at 23° in fact, and love it when what passes for winter these days comes around. "Wheels have turned"? Oh dear, this sort of national competitiveness sounds really naff in all circumstances. Some people in this world are much wealthier than others. I can't even be bothered to compare standards of living between the UK and Romania. If you're happy living in Romania, fine: who cares?
👍😂😂😂😂😂😂
We bought a house with no access to gas. We already had an old oil boiler so we replaced it. The plumber suggested a heat pump and said he could do the work. It took 5 months and struggled to keep the house comfortable. Before the price increases we used the oil to get the house up to temperature, then switched over to heat pump because of the amount of electricity it used to run the pumps from cold. These days we avoid the heat pump because we can't predict the cost. Instead we use oil - we watch the kerosene prices and buy when it is cheap. That way we get no nasty surprises. From early spring to late autumn we have a conservatory which provides enough heat for the house.
We had oil then it got changed to LPG. Both around the same prices but we found that it lasted 3 months for only £400 during winter but the same cost for the rest of the year when the heating wasn't used.oil or lpg is better
Interesting. How does your conservatory provide heat for the house?
@@christinehallett3197The sun.
@@christinehallett3197 The conservatory is double glazed with a heat retentive roof. It is heated by sunlight from late morning until mid evening.for most of the year. By late afternoon the temperature can be in the high 20s Centigrade, more in the summer months. We open the double access doors to allow the warm air to spread into the living room. Right now, 1.30pm, we are using no oil and 5 pence per hour electricity (fridges, computer) with a room temperature 2.19C.
@@orchidhouse297 Thats is really amazing. Thanks for your reply by the way. In su.mer does the heat become uncomfortable or is it okay?
So apart from it being mis-sold, and everything going wrong, and it being intolerably noisy, and it not working, and costing seven or eight times as much as the gas boiler that you still need anyway, it sounds great. Sign me up!
😂👍
The “fair and balanced” Roger loves your comment for some reason. Presumably his total lack of bias shinning through.
@@edc1569 out of curiosity, did you drive alone wearing a nappy on your face?
@@robmule4647of course he did😂
Great deal
Hi Roger, my system works perfectly well and have absolutely zero complaints, its a refurbished and well insulated very old stone cottage. I'll try and get permission from my landlord but personally happy to show you round and give you my review after just over a year of using one.
O.K that would be good to see. You haven't had a hard winter yet but hopefully this year we will get a heavy snow fall and a few days of sub zero temperatures.
@@SkillBuilder I'd love to see that as well. I just bought on old stone cottage and need to decide how to heat it. Not on the gas grid and existing museum quality storage heaters probably not the best option. Go for it Roger. I'd also appreciate if you could help with information about oil and liquid gas alternatives. I believe they will be banned as new installation at some point in the future?
I'd love to hear experiences of air to air (not water) heat pumps in a 60's semi detached bungalow. I think they would be a good match?
@@BenJandrellair to air is a different story as you're only ever going to be blowing warm air around rather than hot water. The killer of heat pumps is too much of a temperature difference between start and finish temp. You don't really have that problem with air to air. Hence how office buildings have had them for years.
@@SkillBuilder Ohhh that'll be nice. Perhaps finally the winter will bump off granny and I can cash in.
This is an absolutely classic case. No disrespect to the owner and he is very brave to share his experience.
There will be many cases like this unfortunately.
It is highly likely there is no issue with the ASHP at all and this all down to the fact of bad or no system design (in the house).
My guesses are :
1. No prior heat loss calculation.
2. No emitter sizing design.
3. Therefore hit and miss ASHP size calculation.
4. The underfloor was likely designed for the high temperature (gas) boiler and the pitch between loops means with the lower flow temperatures of the ASHP it is always likely to underperform.
Finally - although the owners have decided to go back to gas (and I don’t blame them) it would be make for an interesting video if he called the Heatgeeks in for a visit and do a case study into the hydronics design.
This may well happen but the fact is that £18,000 into the project and relying on 'experts' he has an expensive unreliable heating system that he will now have to spend £ X XXX put right. It cannot be his fault.
@@SkillBuilder I never implied it was his fault, nor do I think I it was. It all reflects badly on the box shifting side of the heating industry - people being paid for skills they do not have, essentially fraud.
Its always a miss if you are trying to heat house with 35/30degree but radiators are for 90/70 degree system. Installers were just grabbing money and didnt care.
@@SkillBuilderknew it was going to be a disaster story the moment he said the original installer went out of business.
@@SkillBuilder For that kind of money, it wouldn't be much more to have a mechanical engineer with HVAC-specific experience review any plan. If you really just can't believe that air-source heat pumps work beautifully for many years at a time at extremely low cost, visit any west coast city in the US, go visit the highest-volume residential Mitsubishi ductless installer, and have them take you around and talk to those in the homes. Assuming it is the correct design for the home and that particular climate, as the OP references, they have little or no competition from other forms of heating and cooling in terms of efficiency and payback time. For example, there are small veterans' apartments publicly-funded in Bishop, California that run them in every unit, principally powered by solar installed on the roof, and they have been solid since day one. Sounds like you just don't have your engineering and supply-chain act together if you're not able to generate the same results.
We have an Esse Ironheart in the dining room. Three logs and six sticks and two firelighters light it immediately and it kicks out terrific heat. Another 10 - 12 logs will keep it burning all day. It has two hot rings for cooking and a wonderful oven for baking. Totally efficient and there is nothing that can beat coming in on a cold day and standing by the fire watching the flames flicker.
Interesting, I bought an 18th century farm in Sweden last year, the main house currently has a wood fired system, it works really well, heating the house beautifully with 70 0dd degree water, but, I need to be at home and load it three or four times a day when it´s cold which as you can imagine can be a bit of a pain, we have a guesthouse on a seperate system that is heated by burning grain, similar to a pellet or wood chip burner but converted for water damaged grain that I then dry with fans, this system is a bit more automated but I still have to service the burning unit once a week during winter and have to fill up the grain bunker as and when required so I am looking to install heat pumps within a hybrid system just to take care of that base heat level and boost when required. Being a Brit living in Sweden I found it hard to get the information I wanted but watching this video has made me confident I am thinking along the right path. Thanks mate! If you have any opinions on my setup I would love to hear them
A rational discussion between men of integrity, a rarity on this subject in these times. You are quite right to emphasise the ideological character of the problem. Sadly, this makes it all the more difficult for good sense to prevail, since ideological conviction is impervious to empirical evidence and therefore pathologically resistant to change.
Thank you ! We had been considering a heat pump but no longer, never thought about noisy fans and doubling the size of the radiators is a definite no, too intrusive. I imagine if you could be underfloor heating plus keep the gas boiler for instant hot water then it might fly…….but not for us thanks
We love you Roger! My husband and I always check your videos for advice on any home related issues, you have never let us down.Heat pumps won’t work for us in Scotland our temp can go down to - 9 degrees I can’t see a heat pump working for us in Scotland. We got a Bosch Worcester Greenstar Comfort II RF combi boiler it’s brilliant. Perfect for Scottish weather.😊
Excellent video. Thank you. It confirms what we discovered when we researched the system. Sticking with our solid fuel options. Don't mind felling old, dying trees & chopping logs to supplement coal products.
Tepid rads that heat your rooms only slowly…and providing you have no drafts…meaning no ventilation…meaning black mold forming unless you run dehumidifiers. Living in a sealed up house also means smells from cooking, farts and nasty socks can’t get out…lovely! It also means with heating off or a window open a crack for fresh air, the house chills down fast.
The three mistakes in buying are as follows: 1 . Thinking about having a heat pump.
2. Buying a heat pump.
3. Insulation of a heat pump.
That is too simplistic. They do work in appropriate housing. We have to upgrade our building standards to make property the best fit for a heat pump technology.
@@holgre3470they will not work in Scotland
@@holgre3470 They work in badly ventilated houses
Roger, I work for a company that designs and manufactures large air source heatpumps for commercial applications. As a private individual, I would be very interested to dissect John's unit to find out whether there was any underlying problem with it. The COPs quoted seem extremely poor unless the unit had major issues with ice build up and airflow. I can say from experience that defrost / UK cold weather performance is one of the more challenging aspects of heat pump engineering design.
Would definitely love to see HeatGeek and Urban Plumber take this on!!
Would be such a great opportunity to prove that heatpumps do work when designed and installed correctly!
@@PolitiTrix-my6yw this could not be further from the truth I’m afraid. They aren’t noisy and they absolutely do work!!
Would be absolutely amazing to see what they come up with. Hopefully the owner doesn't decomission the system so someone who really knows what they're doing can document it and publicise the findings, heat pump install post mortem style
I have 2 heat pumps and I disagree with this. It’s not just about a good design and install, they need to know when to say no it won’t work. I have 2 that work very well, but it does require very specific conditions to actually perform and the needed level to be on par with a gas boiler. They are far from the solutions for all homes
oh okay .he must be making this video because he likes telling lies . @@deanchapple1
@@PolitiTrix-my6yw the earth is flat and that’s why heatpumps work so well. 😂🤯🤪🤦🏼♂️
Air to water heat pumps in the UK are madness.
We have 4x Air to Air units, super simple 1 unit inside and 1 outside all installed for £4400 (less than full wet central heating system). They have a SCOP of 4.2, and heat the room instantly - much faster than a gas boiler and rads.
They also cool in summer
Yet these systems are not eligible for any grant
Interesting. never heard of these before. But when I looked them up on 'Green match' web site they claim - ' The air to air heat pump cost for the average UK household of 2-3 people ranges from £9,030 - £20,070 (includes heat pump, installation, and annual maintenance). So were you saying it was 4* £4400 for your system?
Air to air heat pumps don’t get grants but are vat free for equipment and installation - just installed 2 for lounge and bedroom - very impressive so far
@@ianmatlock1 yes we have 3x 2.5kw (£1000 ea) units, one in each bedroom, and 1x 5kw (£1400) unit in open-plan ground floor
All condensate is gravity drained and all units have the condenser directly behind them outside, so no trunking
@@davebaker4620 Brilliant tech, and always get max efficiency due to condenser & indoor being perfectly sized for one another, no buffer tanks, pumps, multi room temperature controls, seems madness to me!
I would imagine lots wouldn't get permission for having 4 outside units of the house as it would look hideous. Especially if it were a terrace. You couldn't have two units at the front of the house right ?
Can't we get heat geek, urban plumbers and a manufacturer in to fix this installation at no expense to the owner?
[sound of crickets]
At the very least it would be interesting to have heat geek and urban plumbers survey the system and tell us what is wrong with it and answer the owners questions about how long it should take to warm up and whether you are supposed to leave it on whilst you're on vacation.
Maybe your superhero can fix everyone's heat pumps, get around to everyone like Santa.
@@robmule4647 Who is my superhero? Bottom line is we see lots of videos from the channels above and others saying if a heat pump system is designed and installed correctly then it should work. And, unless these people aren't telling the truth then they probably do. However when we get cases where a heat pump isn't working then we need some experts to jump on that and tell us why and how it should have been designed / installed. Then there are more general questions like those posed above i.e. time to heat, do you need to leave it on whilst on vac or turn it on remotely a day before returning home etc.
@@robthomas7232 you have a very short memory. Heat pump geek can tell LG how to make a quiet head pump yes and get round to fixing everyone's heat pumps, he's magic like Santa
Hi Roger, I’m really glad you interview people with real experience rather than theoretical discussions. I’m also a similar age (probably a bit older) than you. I have a reasonably well insulated house and a 7 year old super efficient boiler Ideal Vogue 40HE, running on opentherm with an Evohome zoned setup. I’ve looked at solar panels and heat pumps and concluded I’d be long dead before any remote chance of payback. I’ll save more money buy running my current heating for the next 20 years if I’m lucky enough to last that long. I wish the government came clean about this, especially with older people, the investment in heat pump technology is not worth it. Why are they not investing in alternative low cost heating which suits the British weather? I believe Worcester Bosch did a successful conversion to Hydrogen where the cost of converting boilers was a fraction of the cost of heat pumps. They should s-end their effort on researching lower cost alternatives which are a lot less complex.
It’s called con
Cherche les Euros! Find out where the money is going, because you are not getting any. Your place is to pay for something you don't need.
Hydrogen isn't the answer it is very difficult to work with and inefficient to produce, we have hundreds of years of natural gas under our feet and under the North Sea plus all the infrastructure already in place to pipe it to everyones home. Yet they want to import all our gas, switch to windmills for electricity to power heat pumps. It's insanity.
What a brilliant video. I've had exactly this same list of issues with exactly the same heat pump! One issue is that it is a high flow temperature model with two compressors in series, so the design COP is actually only 2.3 (my real world COP is more like 1.8).
We've decided to transition to a wood pellet boiler instead while we work on rebuilding the house to improve the insulation (and then we might go back to a more efficient heat pump). Wood pellets have their own issues, but at least you get a decent flow temperature and you avoid crippling electricity bills.
Could you not run it at a lower flow temp and reap the benefits of this? Just because it's high flow temp doesn't mean you need to run it at high flow temps. Running lower temps would probably only use 1 compressor.
The current minimum guidelines for design COP is 2.7. I'm not sure when your heat pump was installed, but I question the competency of an installer who was willing to design to a 2.3 SCOP.
Pellets are expensive plus breaks down quite often after 4 years or so which is why my brother is taking his out and now has an air to air vented system which works well and has
@GregoryCarterUK The compressors are probably not in series, it's probably what's called a cascade system. In those you have two separate refrigeration circuits and one circuit's evaporator cools the other circuit's condenser.
Either that, or if you have a CO2 heat pump then the compressors are actually in series, but I don't think CO2 heat pumps are available in the UK yet. Rather common in Japan though.
@@Vaelin404I have questioned them too! They are useless and suggestion everyone avoid (Climate Save Renewables). To be fair though, at the time (2019) I believe the minimum SCOP was lower than today.
Top tip. Just rotate your fridge at home 180 degrees and the fins at the back will give off the same amount of heat.
You have to fix the fridge to the window frame so the fins are inside. It only pumps heat from a to b. Also the fridge would only pump a fraction of the heat you get from a heat pump.
@zotriczaoh7098 that's absurd, you would have to go outside then to access a frosted beverage
@@alanc1406 🤣
Heat source pump = freeze your bollocks off while incurring a huge electricity bill 😂
When the sheep start running go the other way, I installed a wood burner 🔥, remember the rest of the world burn 8 billion tons of coal per annum, this guy being interviewed is a do gooding idiot trying to save the world 🤷
I’ll stick with my log burner with its back boiler you get as much hot water as you want 👍
I'm grateful for this guy for being an early adopter. I think heat pump installations have improved a lot since then. You won't get the grant now without cavity wall and loft insulation.
He has had it for 5 years. Early adopters were 50+ years ago. Even 20 years ago heatpumps were widespread, but maybe not in uk.
I think we need to build the pool of skilled heat pump installers in the UK. There are solutions to all the problems he mentions.
There's a subtle point to this regarding the insulation requirement for the boiler upgrade scheme, you won't get it with an outstanding recommendation for cavity wall / loft insulation on your EPC. I.e. If you have solid walls where you cannot have cavity wall insulation, it would not be outstanding on the EPC and you will still be able to get the grant.
But in that case the EPC would recommend external wall insulation, I would assume? My EPC recommended floor insulation, so they will recommend any insulation that you don't already have. You can get the BUS grant with no outstanding recommendations for wall or roof insulation
@@MatthewEng2593The BUS guidance explicitly calls out cavity walls: "has no recommendations for loft or cavity wall insulation"
We bought a new build 11 years ago which has an air source heat pump system.
Honestly can’t fault it, it’s been great and never had an issue.
Unlike a boiler system where the radiators come on and get very hot and then go off ours tend to stay on for longer and are just warm to touch.
I prefer it to be honest because the temperature is steady all day instead of going up and down.
Only problem I’ve found is finding a company that can service them.
Yes heat pumps should work, the system needs to be properly designed and installed. Helpful too if someone could come out and service them.
Quick buy a lottery ticket, as you got great luck… my experience is heat pumps are too expensive to install, and never meet their cop ratings. It’s a con, to get people to move away from gas. It’s that simple get them away from using gas and they are gone, and the end user is left with high bills, high maintenance costs, and a badly performing heat system….. do not install you will regret it.
😂😂 bs
@@DillioSmithers what a strange comment, not sure what you think I’m lying about? Are you ok?
Bull,,,,,,t
Very logical and clear. For older properties a heat pump can be seen as a supplementary system, so you run gas / heat pump side by side as a hybrid system to get the best of both worlds, for the planet and your pocket
There ain’t no need .
Or just run a gas boiler all the time for less money
Finally uploads of system evaluations over a long(er) period! I live rural in a 1840s house. Installed my own simple oil boiler but with a Hewlett-Packard computer regulating a heatvalve.I have internal and external sensors to regulate my preference in heat/comfort in different places in the house. Not only did it operate, without any major maintenance, beautifully already 25+ years, I have now parts for years to come, as all my (distant) neighbours are kicking them out, installing al these new fancy complex systems! The only negative point is, literally no plumber can or will help me out, if something fails. When i bought the HP, it was already 5 years laying on the builders merchant's shelf, as no plumber knew how to install it. As a futurist, i saw this crisis coming, the blind government helping the blind consumer, meaning a load of money for mr one eye!
Good bit of common sense there! I built my house in 1983 with modern insulation. I used to leave the gas boiler on full time (17 pence per therm 1983!) as I worked out that the cost of bringing the house up to temperature from cold with an on off system worked out little different . However that was when gas prices were small,(now over 100 pence) so I installed a wood boiler stove linked with a Dunsley neutral point to the gas boiler. I live on a farm so the wood is free apart from the work. The great thing about wood heat is that the work is done and you can really enjoy the heat as opposed to constantly fretting about valves and bills. Then installed a dozen solar panels which heats all the hot water through a normal (we live in hope!) Summer.
It's a shame we couldn't have a better look at the installation, what size pipes were the flow and return to the heat pump? Is there a sufficient flow rate going through the system? Also the heat pump looked quite close to the wall and it's installed in a fairly narrow side path so it might be recirculating cold air.
We are filming with Heat Geeks next week so watch out for their take on it. One thing they won't be doing it criticising the customer for not signing up to a £1.000 designers course before he engaged a company. Some of the comments on this video suggest that anyone who engages a company to install a heat pump should know more than the people they hire.
In Britain we find huge resources to determine what went suddenly wrong: inquiries into Covid, Grenfell, Hillsborough, Saville. And rightly so. We learn some lessons and try not to repeat past mistakes. But we don't learn to plan far ahead. The energy crisis and global warming has been creeping towards us for years. So we have a haphazard building and planning policy, poor housing stock and bewildered consumers. We have dodgy polititions giving dodgy money to dodgy institutions for the purpose of training and accrediting dodgy tradesmen to plan and fit complex technology before the next election. What can possibly go wrong? Stay tuned for the 2030 inquiry into the mis-selling of heat pumps.
I don't disagree with anything said, however it is clear they do not work well on homes not built with a heatpump in mind, or if they have been installed poorly. We have had a valliant arotherm 12kw heat pump for the last year or so now and have got on very well with it. In the last few weeks it has been getting a cop of around 4.3, thats at outside temps of 5-10°C and inside temps of around 19°C (we are comfortable at that temperature). It's installed in a newly converted barn conversion with underfloor heating all round down stairs and in the bathrooms upstairs. It easily makes our hot water to 45°C and once a week up to 65°C for legionella. So far we are very happy with it. It produces around 35kw of heat a day currently using around 8.1kw of electricity to do so and on our tarrif it costs around £1.50 a day for heating and hot water. I would highly recommend on a new build designed for it with underflpor heating etc, but not as a gas boiler upgrade without lots of insulation upgrades and radiators...
We also have it doing cooling in summer and this has worked very well with fancoil radiators in bedrooms. Concerning the noise (I was genuinely supposed how quite it was) our one is whisper quiet and as it starts on an invertor (I believe all the new ones do now) it slowly ramps up when starting so it hasnt got a loud start up noise. We should also remember in hotter countries every house has Aircon which is just as noisey and we don't hear them complaining about it 🤷
Great to hear you have the system set-up for cooling with fancoils in the bedrooms. Are you using the fancoils for both heating and cooling?
@@tlangdon12 yes
My heat pump is 12 years old. Good as new. Works a treat. My 'secret' is that (a) I knew what I was doing and (b) it's an exhaust air heat pump with heat recovery and whole house warm air/ambient air/chilled air ventilation.
It's interesting reading all the misconceptions about heat pumps. It doesn't matter what building you have or what your level of insulation when comparing gas boilers to heat pumps in a like to like situation - you should still be able to run more efficiently with lower running costs than a gas boiler as long as you ensure a low flow temperature within the heat pump's efficient range.
Take for example a draughty Victorian property in worst case winter with a central heating system running it's radiators flat out at 60°C continuously with a room temperature of 20°C, it's cold outside at -5°C and the heat loss from the property is 12kW. So the radiators are pumping out 12kW to balance the loss and keep the room temperature at a constant 20°C. So, the radiator to room delta T = 60° - 20° = 40°C.
Now, if you double the radiator surface area and halve the delta T to 20°C you get the same 12kW of heat output but now the flow temperature is 40°C. That's well within a heat pump's efficient range with a COP = 3 consuming 4kW (12kW divided by COP of 3).
Compare that to the previous gas boiler with its at best 90% efficiency 12kW/0.9 = 13.3kW (1.3kW goes up the flue).
Looking at cost with electricity at 27.45p/kWh x 4kW = £1.09/hour
And for gas:
7.05p/kWh x 13.3kW = £0.937/h
That's worst case design and the costs almost match. At higher ambient temperatures the heat pumps weather compensation will reduce the flow temperature and improve efficiency considerably with a seasonal COP, or SCOP, of 4 or more whereas a gas boiler can't go above 90% efficiency. Re-running those figures for an SCOP of 4 gives the heat pump a running cost of 82.35p against gas costing 93.7p i.e. a saving of 12% with the heat pump over the year.
The killer comes when you combine the heat pump with solar panels and a battery to drive it (you can't drive a gas boiler from electricity!). For half the year over summer there can be enough solar to run the heat pump entirely with zero bills and export the surplus solar at 20p to 30p /kWh to bank it in your electricity account and re-import it back in winter at a cheap rate 7.5p/kWh and store it overnight in your battery for use during the day. Overall you could be looking at a 75% reduction in running costs compared to gas and the whole system can pay for itself in seven years and again in the next seven etc. Compare that to a gas boiler when in the same time you'll have spent the same on gas as the capital cost of solar plus battery and a heat pump, but it will have gone up the chimney instead and you'll have nothing to show for it.
That is a lot of work to try to convince people of your perspective - Electricity has reached a point of expense whereby millions of people are simply not be able to afford to run such systems let alone buy them. I like your thoughts on running such a system on an old Victorian solid brick windy city kinda house....
@@martinp17Well, I thought it was worth pointing out that if a gas boiler can heat a property you can actually set up a heat pump to do the same job with cheaper running costs on electricity than the gas boiler on gas. You just need to keep the flow temperature low and you achieve that with bigger radiator surface areas. Insulation and draftiness apply equally to gas boilers as they do to heat pumps if the kW loss from the property is the same at the same room temperature which it will be.
In fact in the follow up videos to this one Heat Geeks brought in by Skill Builder did exactly that - so lower running costs than the previous gas boiler once the errors on the first heat pump install were corrected. It pays to have the knowledge to make it work properly. With the £7,500 grant available now some people even get it done for free or at least a huge discount.
@@johnh9449 Look, the 7.5K grant is not much help when you could be facing having to bring your home up to EPC standard - which could potentially cost thousands of pounds, you then face a potential install fee of 20K + which would likely include all new radiators, ripping out the current system and goodness know what else. You also have to figure out a way of getting hot water - oh, this might be possible going back to 80 yo technology and having a hot water cylinder! I think potentially these systems might be worth looking at come 3/4th generation with further improvements but for old stock houses (about 40% being pre 1946) they are going to likely be a big expensive disappointment.
@martinp17 Look? I did. I read what you said and you have a point about the situation you describe but not everyone's situation is the same and it depends what they want to do too - like getting rid of gas or deciding what to do with any savings etc.
The point I was simply trying to counter is the mistaken belief that heat pumps only work in well insulated houses and in poorly insulated ones boilers are needed for instead. That isn't true as I explained in detail. Heat pumps can run cheaper with the same heat output because of greater efficiency with lower flow temperature.
I replaced all my old battered single panel radiators with double ones and installed a modern unvented 300L cylinder all for £6,000 and there was only a £5k grant available then. It runs far cheaper than the previous gas boiler. That's my situation.
Granted someone without cavity wall and loft insulation would either have to do that first or proceed without the grant at a higher capital cost and that depends on their situation and motivation.
Ultimately for more capital cost you can even also install solar with a battery to power the heat pump and end up with zero bills and the whole system pays for itself in a few years and a second time within its lifetime but that depends if you have savings to invest for the high returns but not everybody does of course. A forward thinking government could help there with such an investment for the benefit of the country if it gets serous about upgrading the housing stock. Perhaps things will move further to that end given that it pays for itself and gives energy security. There are already some steps in that direction with grants for solar etc. We'll see. Did you know in Italy you can get a 110% grant for such an upgrade - insulation, heat pump, solar plus battery - 100% the lot and 10% extra for your trouble. That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote.
@@johnh9449 'That's forward thinking. Such a government would get my vote' - don't hold your breath - I will consider anything that lowers my energy bill which is currently beyond scandelous - unfortunately we are likely in the minority (I am thinking that both you and I are at least in 'head above water shape' financially) I know too many people who are making really hard decisions about food v heating and in a way this kind of conversation is mute when really this type of system is just a distraction from the real issue which is affordable living. I wish you well.
"Let it grow organically" - the best words in this report. Having the State involved in most everything is a recipe for disaster - one for which we pay.
Been researching in to heat pumps. As a sound engineer I've been worried about the noise also.
noise = loss
I worked in audio production for years. Never had an issue with heat pump noise, the latest ones a really quiet and often have a super quiet mode which you can set to operate at night for example if you are concerned, but honestly, never had any issues. A gas combi is far noisier when its running.
Do you actually have a heat pump? The issue I have with people saying they are quiet is they always record themselves standing next to them in the middle of the day with a microphone that’s probably optimised to cut out ambient noise. During the day we mentally filter out the huge amount of noise that is produced so we don’t notice it. Take being in a pub and having a conversation. Actually listen to the background noise and you realise just how great our brains are at it.
So the relative noise of a heat pump during the day is minimal, but at night it’s going to be different, just how different remains to be seen once you have a ton of them running in your neighbourhood. What happens when something happens like in this instance where the fans are fubar and someone hasn’t got the £600 to fix them and won’t. Does environmental health get involved? Boilers do make a racket I agree but they aren’t on all the time. Personally I like heat pumps but if they annoy me what is the solution? Move? To save a tiny bit of co2 50% of power is produced by gas power stations at 33% efficiency, smacks of green washing to me.
I have a 14kw heat pump at the back of my house and there is no issue with noise, my wife is highly sensitive to noise and she would be complaining if there was a problem!
My oil boiler wakes me up every morning! I've no doubt a heat pump would do similar though.
My cousin installed an air source heat pump for the swimming pool, and as you say it works really well.
They put a massive ground source heat pump in a field outside their draughty, non-insulateable, grade I listed farmhouse. Their house is MUCH warmer than it was with the oil boiler because heating the house doesn’t bankrupt them.
I decided last year to go on a voyage of discovery and install my own heat pump. Although i'm happy with it now it took some time to work out the kink's and nuances. For me the key part of the process is the install, i found that just the controller on its own can give you a difference of 1-1.5 COP. i think heat pumps are good, but much like EV'S you cant just get in and drive!
^-- Definitely true, just kinks and nuances to 'work out' not a bot no way.
Wish I was!
Do you typically run separate dehumidification in the uk? With heat pumps or not? (I’m in the American south).
@@phillipcottingham1489 your wish was granted it seems
@@josbc448 typically no, humidity doesn't tend to be too much of an issue in the uk
Brilliant craic......i am sending this vid to all my prospective customers
Thank you for this, adds clarity to a subject that is mystifying many. Very helpful.
Another great refreshingly honest video from the Skill Builder from the true perspective of a user over a decent period after the system has settled in. There are always good an bad points of any technology. If a salesman just emphasizes on the good like the Heat Geek then they obviously have a bias. Fortunately, even the Heat Geek Squad are honest enough to mention that there needs to be better trained installers providing a properly designed system and comprehensive pre-sales advice to any potential customers to ensure those property owners have all the information to weigh up before making an informed decision. Thanks to Roger and John for your great contribution to the construction industry !
Very interesting Roger. Just about to go on my heat pump course I’m not convinced yet.
Let us know how you get on
great vlog loads of information, very well explained by your guest john
This discussion was very useful and honest. I definitely am concerned about our energy use on the global environment, but the system you have , has to be useful and sensible. Proper installation and analysis of your particular situation is absolutely essential. Thank you for this.
It was interesting to get a perspective on the long term reliability and maintenance costs; the system is just so complicated. Having said that, the reliability on the simpler air-air units is better; we have a couple of air-air units, and the oldest one is over 10 years old and has never needed any attention other than filter cleaning.
I agree with self-contained air to air units, I am in the process or renovating a new house, and am going to play about with some air to air units
@@marcuswareham1and don't forget with air to air you get the added benefit of air-conditioning for the summer 😊
Lots of ugly fans everywhere.@@nickhardiman2142
I cannot understand why people use air to water HPs. Air to air is cheaper, easier to fit, more efficient, very reliable, less complex. I have a 7 year old system and it works down to -5C.
@@ianchapple1345 Probably because they do have the radiators and piping and don't have ductwork.
Let me add my ten cents worth... I live in central Spain, totally off grid. I´ve converted shipping containers which are heavily insulated both inside and out (5cm spray foam outside with fiber glass wool inside). I installed radiant floor heating connected to a propane gas boiler. As summers here get hot (45ºC ) I decided to install a heat pump to give me air conditioning, with the intention of just using the AC. The company that installed the heat pump were the same that installed the gas boiler to the underfloor heating. When the rep came round to my house, he initially refused to install a heat pump as, to quote him, he didn´t want to rip me off!! He thought I wanted the heat pump for heating too. He explained that I would need to DOUBLE my solar setup to handle the consumption, and even then I´d be using the generator a few days a year (this is sunny Spain, remember).
I was gobsmacked as my setup is currently 16 x 550W panels and 20Kw of lithium batteries. (12,000€ with me doing all the installation myself). He said he was speaking from experience as they had actually been threatend with legal action the first time they did a totally solar installation due to under calculating what was needed. So I would need 32 solar panels (thing about how much space that takes up) and 40kw of battery storage just to run a heat pump. Sheer insanity.
Thanks, VERY useful info.
I remember having a debate on Reddit a few years ago who wanted to force families into having heat pumps fitted to replace gas boilers.
The man was utterly insane, the reality is heat pumps are NOT a substitute for a gas boiler.
Stumbled upon this video today. Found it very informative and useful. I've just had a funded install which seems to be running well, but I've already identified a few tweaks I'd like to make. This has helped me with some of the decisions I need to make. Many thanks. 😊
Although recently retired, I spent over 50 years working in house building. I've worked on houses with many different types of heating system, one thing I know is, fitting a 21 century heating system in a 20th century house will have many costly problems to overcome, and any government grant wont scratch the surface. designing new build houses with either air or ground source heat pumps is a much simpler task, so I really cant understand why the large national house builders are allowed to still build new houses with traditional gas fired central heating. it all comes down to cost.
Garbage, we live in a stone cottage built 1820 no damp course, heat pump way cheaper than our old combi boiler. You just need an installer that is competent in the technology.
If you've been in the business for over 5 decades, I'm sure that you are familiar with the phrase "builder's grade" - low spec equipment that can be installed quickly by a monkey with minimal training. The builder has little or no incentive to be concerned about future operating costs. As to why the practice is allowed to continue, it's politics. Show me one large national builder who doesn't donate to, and isn't on a first name basis with all the pols who make the rules under which he operates.
I totally agree. I live in an area where thousands of new houses are being built with gas central heating. How is that even legal? The government wants gas to be obsolete within about ten years so why is the gas network continuing to grow? People buying new homes should be warned to expect a massive bill for new heating systems inten years from now.
We have been using the LG heat pump for the past two years successfully now and I totally agree that you need to build your house around the system not the system around your house. We have finished the house in 2020 with very efficient building materials and 15cm polistyren around the walls, floors, roof etc. considering it was build in Eastern Europe. The moisture in the air is more heat pump friendly but the temps go much deeper below zero. We have spent about £9k for the system fitted in 50sq meeters detached house heat pump where the house is sitting in the middle of nowhere with no other option for source of heat. If I had a choice I would get the gas boiler instead 100%.
Tips for quiet fans:
1 Used hydrodynamic bearings. They are silent and don't wear out.
2 Use larger fans but don't run them so fast. In my experience commercial fans often spin so fast they create turbulence which is basically converting the energy into a load of noise and reducing performance. For an AC fan you can use a variable frequency drive (VFD). Just knock it back about 10% and you lose little in the way of airflow but it will run much quieter.
3 The blades of a fan can be shaped such that they create a vortex airflow. The ones I have, have a little bit missing on the tips of the blades. They are computer designed and very smart.
The alternative is to replace the fans with underground pipes to suck in the heat from the ground. The temperature underground is out of phase with the temperature at the surface. At a distance of 8m you are 180 degrees out of phase, so summer is winter and winter is summer. This is ideally where you want your pipes.
Generally speaking - use physics to solve your problems.
Looks like every solution costs thousands, involves change, stress, building changes...
@@FirstLast-rh9jw I'll tell you what it looks like from my point of view. These British firms and workmen do not know what they are doing. They are poorly educated in the sciences and this is why everything fails so badly. This is why everything costs so much. The high tech super quiet fans i got hold of which work as described above were produced by a German firm. The Germans are much better engineers. It does not cost any more. It's a matter of designing it correctly in the fist place.
Or, get a nice modern condensing boiler...
Most probably, the fan knocking on the ice build up has wreaked the it.
Nothing wrong with the fans fitted to those LG Heatpumps, they are vfd driven, blades are designed for efficiency and low noise. They get noisy when the coil freezes up disrupting the airflow. System design and application is the issue here.
I live in a 75 year old house. It originally had oil heat. That was replaced with electric baseboard heaters in the early '60s. A few years ago, I removed the vermiculite insulation from the attic and put in R30 fiberglass. (I had the vermiculite tested, and it was below 1% asbestos.) Now I'm having a Daikin mini-split installed. The baseboard heaters will be the backup. I've been using a window air conditioner in the summer, so this will be a tremendous upgrade. I also had custom glass doors made for the large stone old-style heatilator fireplace, so I can close the doors when the fire goes down at night. Due to ice storms, I have many years of oak to burn. I have a Mr. Heater propane heater if all else fails.
Around 18:05 " they're ideologically driven" Yep, couldn't agree more. We'll only make progress when it's recognised that the solutions aren't binary, aren't simple black and white. Unfortunately dogma drives too much of chosed directions. As your guest correctly pointed out identifying what would work best for a given property scenario and then deploying it would almost certainly yield much better aggegrate outcomes than the one size fits all mentality which presently only allows focus on certain options ie heatpumps. Not hating on heatpumps, I'm planning a renovation at the moment and will have a h/p on the short list but am aiming for fabric first then to see what will best service the resultant thermal requirements.
Thank you. A really good interview/discussion by both contributors. I think I'll subscribe to this channel...
in the 70s I was at School, I was working for a Builder, you are the same, you work hard and think the same !
There’s a common theme running through all the stories about heat pumps that don’t work - bad design and installation. This I would say is quite common amongst the trades in the UK, they’re stuck in the past and don’t like anything ‘new’, and will almost deliberately do a bad job because they refuse to learn how to do it properly.
Despite a bad installation, I’ve managed to get my ASHP running rather well.
We will still be using gas boilers in 2050 because we don’t have a workforce that is willing to adapt.
A lot of people are going to be cold because by then the urgency ogf the problem will require gas to be shut down wholesale.
This is what happens when the government incentives come into play. All these "traditional" HVAC companies jump on the band wagon with the new technology and they don't know what they are doing. The design and installation needs to be done properly for it to work. We had this issue in Canada when we had incentives for ground source heat pumps. There were all these companies popping up and trying to install ground source heat pumps. Then we were left with a bunch of systems that weren't designed properly and people thought it was the heat pump that was the problem.
This video once again brings into focus how important good specification and installation are when considering a heat pump; I do hope it doesn’t people off having one as they can be very successful - we installed ours in 2022 and it has reduced our energy costs compared to the previous gas boiler! Heatpumps have also improved compared to 5 years ago. I agree that hybrid installations can be good for big old poorly insulated houses, hopefully the government will relax the requirements to take out the old boiler in order to get the grant. Having a remotely controllable heatpump would avoid the issue of the house taking two days to warm up after a fortnight away - one can schedule it to come on 2 days before your return.
Hybrid is exactly my issue, house is 120 years old with over 3000 square foot of area and high ceilings, so I accept it can eat heat like a beast! However I have already had the whole house up and down fully under floor heating fitted, so thought an ideal match for a heat pump. I could run the whole system at 40 degrees right out of the box... Only the heat calculations say I need a heat pump capable of outputting 17Kw on the coldest day -2C outside to maintain +20C inside (or something similar) Now I do not want to go three phase and all that messing about with industrial grade units, and forget finding a heat pump on single phase that will crank that out on a cold day. Naturally I thought I will just keep my oil boiler for when it is really cold... but oh no, gonna cost you to go that route... quotes are currently £18K+ with no grant. They should support hybrid systems, as I estimate the heat pump would do 95% of all the heating requirements even if a lower spec unit was fitted. Oil is a ball ache to get delivered on time and the price fluctuates wildly... so who is going to choose that if they can help it?
Why can't you use a normal electricity heater for the 5% of days you need more than just the heat pump
What’s to stop you having the boiler removed put to one side the pipes capped off with push fit and then reinstalled for a few hundred pounds? Tbh having a hybrid system sounds nice but you are still stuck with the standing charge which now costs as much as it used to for heating consumption. It’s all a mess in my opinion.
@@davideyres955 its oil so there is no standing charge. The problem is the heat pump installers are not legally allowed to install and commission a grant based system if it cannot cope with the heat calcs
@@kaya051285 To be honest I can, the home already has 8 other A/C heat pumps which do heat (but were primarily installed for cooling in the summer) however the installers are “not allowed” to let you have an under powered main (air to water) system fitted… rules are rules apparently!
17kw at a COP of 3 (haha) should only require 6kw = 25A, well within the capabilities of most single phase domestic installations.
I had a Bosh ground source heat-pump system that was too complicated for its own good and never seemed to generate enough heat. I moved to a property with a 1997 Worcester oil fired boiler. It's not condensing but is certainly able to generate enough heat and is very reliable.
ha, do you pronounce Worcester as "Woster"? I know a couple of places by that name and the pronunciation was startling.
Good example of a poor install, you would get the same with a poor install of a gas boiler except it would probably cost more to run. We have the same LG Therma V 9kw mono block installed 2 years ago in our 1963 detached bungalow. It replaced the old Grant combo oil burner (smelly thing) and its was swap outed in a day and half no new rads added, no new pipe works, no extra insulation, it all works off the old system and gives us 20c all day long. Obviously our home is not ideal, but when the temerature dropped to -8c it did struggle to keep up with the losses. We knew this so invested in battery storage to help shift the cheap energy over to the day time use, and added Infrared Panels to run off our solar on cold sunny days. YOU ARE WELCOME TO COME AROUND AND INTERVIEW ME! So long as you publicises it!!!!!!!!!!! My question is why did you not invite the Heat Geeks round to investigate and fix this gentalmans problems? Hmmm probably because it does not fit in your agenda!!
Really interesting video. I do think the issue around these installs is lack of knowledge from heating engineers and lack of governance around the grant system. I think roger makes a good point in that the grants are poorly awarded and the guy being interviewed specifying a criteria based on home ages or something makes a lot of sense.
Would it be possible to do a follow up with heatgeek for them to review the system to highlight the mistakes made by the installers so we can all learn even if not changing anything?
we are on it
@@SkillBuilder Sounds like a brilliant video is coming between you both :-)
Yes! This would make a brilliant video.
HeatGeek will have a fit when they see this! Is round 3 of the Heatgeek v Skillbuilder coming soon?
How would heat pump geek stop the noise from an LG heat pump? 🤦
@@robmule4647install issue causing heat pump to ice up too early will clog the coil with ice which in turn increases fan noise as air isn't moving through properly.
@@richardc1983 you must all be the same person.... The noise from the fan hitting ice was temporary, it isn't the noise that made the neighbours move bedrooms which is the noise I refer to.
@@robmule4647 what was the noise? I've had the single fan version of the unit you've got about 5 years now and no noise issue.
@@richardc1983 what was the noise? Quite an annoying one by the sounds of it. If you don't believe the guys on camera account why would someone believe yours through a comment?
Firstly, heat pumps have been round for many years. The first system I was involved with was an air to water system in 1983 so it’s not new technology. Even then, it was known that buffer tanks were necessary so to have one installed now is unbelievable. There’s no reason in this day and age for installers to get it wrong and provide the best advice to customers. Poor selection and poor design really should not be problem. That people have these problems now is down to poor regulation and qualifications of installers. The other thing that amazes me is that new 18:08 houses are being built and they have neither heat pumps or solar PV or solar thermal as a building regulation requirement. We have estates of housing locally with prices up to £600k which don’t have these systems. Amazing!
I had an ASHP installed in February '23. Run alongside a PV 8kw solar array and 20kwhr batteries. The property is grade 2 listed stone built barn conversion.
So far I am not finding problems like those described. The weird thing is the house is like Goldilocks porridge neither too hot or too cold. The internal temperature varies a little but is stable within a narrow range.
I am using a flow temperature of about 36 and a return temperature of 28-30. With weather compensation.This provides stability between 19-21 degrees.
My system triangulates the outside temperature rather than a direct reading and internal temperature is calculated by an algorithm based on outward and return temperature. So far it all provides an estimated COP of 4+ based on the system's internal thermistors.
The combination of solar batteries and ASHP means that over a year the house is almost carbon neutral. Total power costs for a 200 sq metre property are expected to be between £1,500 and £2,000.
The return on capital is 12-15% based on current projections. Since domestic collar production is exempt from income tax factoring this into the mix makes it an excellent investment. Certainly better for the environment and your pocket than an electric car.
Absolutely. That's roughly the size of what I did although the returns I calculate to be a little higher - are you making the most of smart tariffs?
Andy
You have yet to use your new heating system in cold weather. It will be interesting to see your figures after 3 or 4 years. You can't build models on half a season.
@@SkillBuilder Well my system which sounds of similar size at least as far as PV is concerned kept my room temperature at a constant 23° C through last winter. So far this year I've generated 6.5MWh and consumed 7.11MWh to run the heat pump and domestic loads.
@@SkillBuilder February was fairly cold where I live! I'd love to see you follow up this video with a trip to one of these successful installs. Use your obvious knowledge, and good explanation skills to go through why it was a success.
yes that is exactly what we have found. five years in and we have a steady 20 and its amazing. You don't 'really get' the way it functions efficiently in an old building. old buildings need a steady heat. You shouldn't turn it off.
The great thing about these sort of videos is the diversity of opinion. Opinion versus actual facts of users, so we have an array of positive versus negative and that’s great for people like me contemplating converting. We need to have all facts to make an informed decision. Thanks for posting.
But the users can only report the 'facts' of their installation, and if it has been botched, then their experience isn't relevant to someone who has access to a competent installer. It does highlight what can go wrong, but there were plenty of things went wrong with gas boilers when they were introduced.
@@tlangdon12 the one eyed man is king in the valley of the blind, what the series of Skill Builder on heat pumps show is the need for competent trained skilled people. Botched installs exist in all professions sadly and the poor unsuspecting public pay the ultimate price.
As per usual everything the customer explained was down to the design and installation, not the heat pump. Like everything if it’s not designed or installed correctly then of course it won’t work, that’s not the heat pumps fault
I’d suggest in this case the installer didn’t do a proper heat loss and the heat pump was undersized and the system wasnt set up correctly as a bi-valent system.
Daikin would not say put in the sun/south elevation, in fact it would be the opposite, please check your facts. If your not sure who said it don’t throw a manufacturers name out there
Man with some money to spend on his home doesn’t spend it on insulation, spends it on heat pump which he knows nothing about and doesn’t research.
The noisy heat pump had nothing to do with the installation, it's just shite
I was thinking the same thing, system design is not right at the very least and possible rad/insulation issues as well
@@robmule4647 the noise from what he was saying was caused by the unit icing up and the fans clipping it. which is a design issue. The noise is could be the fan motors or compressor being screwed due to the unit working it’s nuts off. Brands such as LG, Mitsubishi, Daikin, Samsung & vailllant are quiet, so I bet this heat pump is knackered because of the way the system was designed and installed nearly 6 years ago.
It can’t be a coincidence that the installer has gone bust!! I deal with many good installers who’s been installing Heat pumps for over 10 years and are still trading.
@@paulhutchinson323 you obviously didn't watch the video very closely. Noise from the ice and general long term increasing noise (from the LG unit) that forced the neighbours to move bedroom was very separate noise issues. One temporary from ice one long term.
Great video. I learned a lot.
In 1990 I had an air con unit fitted which was amazing working in reverse for air heating with a COP of 3 lots of heat even in icy weather.
millions are used to heat apartments in China effectively and cheap. But warm water will not heat radiators effectively.
I have been thinking about a heat pump but obviously there are still to many bugs in the system and you are in the hands if a good or bad installer.
Thanks a lot!
can you imagine how much noise would come from a 100+ housing estate all using heat pumps ???
free ear plugs with every one
My last house had an air to air heat pump and it was great for 9 months of the year but for three months it was freezing most of the time and i had to use fan heaters and i also had to pour hot water over the base of the external unit as the ice used to build up on it and hit the fan as the defrost water from the coils simply froze in the base. The point is they don't provide heat when actually required in the depth of Winter and so are not a solution for home heating.
I am concerned also about old people. They can't wait 3 days for their homes to warm up. some of them have already fallen down the stairs waiting for their energy saving light bulb to be bright enough for them to see where there going. it's not fit for purpose. and no I am not sponsored by energy companies!
How can old people afford heating?
Hi Roger.. I really enjoyed your conversation with John. I actually watched it in reverse to the followup one when The Heat Geek (Adam) was on site. You guys really nailed it and I am now sooooooo happy I never went with a heat pump underfloor heating system. I am living in rural South Australia in an offgrid situation (power/water etc) pretty much like a modern Earthship. When I designed the house I was really concious about power consumption especially heating in the colder months. I have a 20Kw LIPO with 14Kw solar panels system and it is balanced and works really well. But relating to the heat pump, I wanted the most energy efficient heating device for the underfloor heating system (circulated water/hydronic) possible. That includes the system cost. I simply went with hot water storage just like a normal domestic HWS. I heat the foor all day with solar excess power and consume the tank during the night. I get 24 hours of slab heat from one session of energy transfer. So it is good until the next day when the tank is hot again. In really cold situations I boost the HWS with a water jacket on the wood stove. I guess my real comment is that you work you ideas so well. I am a subscriber now but originally came to your channel for info about rendering and concrete work. Keep up the good work mate. Cheers from down under where it is Summer. Keep warm. Regards, Gary
I'm a Chartered Building Services Engineer with CIBSE, UK. Monovalent Domestic Heat Pump applications require engineering design input, from the outset. No different to commercial applications. Energy Assessors and Plumbers are not Engineers, and homeowners are not willing to pay for design input, from an experienced professional. I designed my neighbours system, for a new 4-bed detached house, with underfloor heating throughout. It was just a challanging as any commercial system i've designed. They are a great source of heat, if applied correctly, to the right home, thats had sufficient thermal fabric upgrades.
Any supplier/installer should be MCS Certified
Or you could install any random gas boiler and get better results without an engineering wanker
Our old oil boiler (from around the late 90’s) was on its last legs a couple of years ago, we ended up replacing it with a Grant. The very knowledgeable heating engineer we use had just done a training course in heat pump system installation and I asked him if he would recommend it for our house (built 1910, mix of stone and brick), his advice was ‘absolutely no way’.
All these issues screams install issues to me. Unit icing up too early and coil blocking up will reduce airflow and will increase noise of fans. I have an LG System and mine works great, mine is air to air. The fact all the rads needed upgrading suggests your installer didn't have a clue. Get heat geek and urban plumbers involved to see what's wrong.
Is a system that needa NASA level of design and install an ideal solution for the majority of creaky UK housing?
@@FirstLast-rh9jw No different to installing a boiler which only a gas-safe engineer can do... the problem is no one has done the training properly and you have plumbers installing these heat pumps thinking they are a like-for-like replacements. Common sense says that at 40c flow temp you are not going to get the same heat output on your radiators than you would at 80c flow temp on your rads (what they were designed to do)
@@FirstLast-rh9jw It’s not NASA level engineering. Heat loss calculations and the mass flow calculation together with pipe sizing. It’s about O level standards.
The fact that all the radiators needed updating, but they didn't update any of them confirms they were clueless. A proper design would have revealed the large heat loss from the old part of the property, and the need to increase the size of the radiators (or add more radiators). If this had been done, John could have looked at the size of the radiators needed and decided that he didn't want to devote that much wall space to radiators or considered underfloor heating as an alternative.
@@normanboyes4983 And fitting a gas boiler would work better and wouldn't even require standard grades
33:43 - It looks like the back of the heat pump (HP)'s outside unit (evaporator) is way too close to the building wall - but it's difficult to tell from the video. It looks like only about 100mm.... If it is too close (and the manufacturer recommends a *minimum* of 300mm - 1 foot for this size HP) this could easily be causing the ice build up issue, not to mention excessive fan noise.
Simple old reclaimed electric storage heaters off peak, coal and wood stoves and a big immersion tank. Lots of rigid board insulation in loft and walls. Simple and cheap to install, nothing fancy to go wrong. No clever digital electronics. No gas at all. Any defects easily fixed. Boring but cheap and effective.
And no need for an annual service or expensive "service plan" insurance that, when you need it, will tell you your boiler is obsolete or unrepairable (probably because a generic thermocouple is not available for that model)
Which is pretty much the setup in the house I purchased in 2015. However in my case I swapped out the storage heaters for a heat pump with underfloor and radiators and halved my electricity bill and have a warm house all year round. The storage heaters were a nightmare in the spring and autumn when a lack of sensible controls meant that I had to open doors and windows to dump the expensively acquired excess heat. also now have hot water at a fraction of the cost before. Fuel prices going through the roof over the last couple of years have meant that the system has already covered the install cost.
Great vid Roger. And you John, thank you for sharing your experience. Appreciate both your comments/views from real life data 👍
Most of the homes here in NYC, have the mini split heaters + gas boilers (for their hot water)
I do have heat pump at home in addition to combi boiler. I bought one of the most efficient one and its still no where close to economical !
The new extension part I used heat pump and old part and hot water most of it on Combi. I just did this way as an experiment.
In the winter, I had the icing issue when it was 4c out side and at that temp and below it becomes extremely inefficient almost 1kw to get 1kw heat. and the noise sometimes can be very annoying the humming noise.
I would say if anyone refurbishing -
1. Do the Pipeworks for heatpump
2. Have a utility room or boiler room with space for future hot water cylinder
3. If no gas available then get the heat pump BUT make sure to check the efficiency at low temperature. This is buried in tech spec but you can find it.
4. Put heat pump in area with good air circulation
5. Keep the gasboiler as long as you can
I do have overseas property where in winter its constantly snow and -10 to -20 and we only have heat pump and it works there fine. The heat pumps there are much better quality efficiency in cold is way much better than the 2nd class junk sold here . Also people know how to fit them properly and the properties are very well insulated.
A COP of less than 2 might as well just get electric radiators put your 16k into a high interest account and it will cover the difference and you keep the 16k. What a joke.
Absolutely, high heat storage retention heaters, I've just got an EV leccy tarriff 9.5p per kWh overnight will save a fortune. We are going back to the 1970's!
@@ridethelakescrazy really isn't it.
A heat pump that has been fitted correctly will have a cop of least 3, from the limited camera shots of the installation it would appear that it has been poorly fitted. My biggest concern is the site of the heat pump which looks tight to the wall, it's 22kw so it would require very good air flow around the heat pump.
@davek5839 22kw how big is your house. Like 500m2?
@@mwang7564 think you have misunderstood, I'm talking about the heat pump in the video.