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I don't understand I have a Midea heat pump window unit I got it at Costco on sale for $275 as energy star rating what's 18 k air conditioner heat pump with seer rating 15 3,000 seems a little steep
@kurtzxcvb3481 the energy star rating is not what you're paying for. You are paying for the heat pump, which is not only A/C but also a Heater and a super efficient one at that.
For an individual renter in a building with centralized heating, this doesn't make sense at all. If your heat pump has no connection to the central heating system, the temp in your spaces is still still going to be at the mercy of the main heat source. At best, this would allow you to warm a room that's always too cold in the winter. And for the price of two or three of these units I could add a mini-split to my house, get better results, and not have something hanging off my windows.
While this is an option for vertically hung windows, they probably aren't compatible with sliding, casement or awning style windows, which will reduce viable applications in newer units.
For 2 to 3k? No. I live in Florida so heat is of very little concern, and what little it is I have computers that heat rooms up just fine. Not worth it till they com down in price by a lot.
Those prices are ridiculous. 90% of a heat pump is a traditional air conditioner, with a reversing valve added. I bought a 12K BTU Midea window air conditioner last year for $499 - similar saddle design - and it is efficient as hell. No way converting that to a heat pump justifies a 600% increase in cost/price. These companies smell government subsidies and are inflating their prices accordingly. I call bull$#!t. Same damned problem in solar. Kill the taxpayer-funded rebates/incentives and watch prices plummet accordingly.
@@shawnstillman736Not exactly right. Heat pumps also have automatic deicing firmware, and temperature sensors to accommodate that. Still traditional heat pumps are only about double the price of a similar sized window unit. The 3k price is an obvious scam.
I don't understand why these would be so much more expensive. $3000 for an AC that can run in reverse? Isn't it just a couple extra valves and a tad more electronics? I could see $1000; but, 3x that amount feels like it's priced high just to eat federal subsidies.
It is, the markup for installation is ridiculous. I am very handy and installed a universal for 4 grand including all the ductwork and it works wonderfully and is code compliant..
What's even crazier is that Midea already sells a window unit heat pump, 8000 BTU (MAW08HV1CWT) for $380 and 12000 (MAW12HV1CWT) BTU for $500 on amazon. It doesn't make any sense for them to introduce a $3k unit. Whole house 2-3 ton central systems sell for $3k. Anyone with sales or marketing experience could tell you a window unit at that price point is going to be a failure. At this point Matt is just a shill for these companies. He's knowingly pumping products that don't make any financial sense or he lacks any financial sense and thinks these are good ideas.
As a guy who installs and uninstalls about 20 window ACs per year, I like how these effortlessly float themselves into place during installation. Easy on the back is nice.
Cast radiators are usually installed right under or next to exterior windows in old homes/apartments. Wonder how large of a problem they will be with this design.
I was drooling for this un until you mentioned the price.. then I was like "what?!" I already have the Midea-U 12,000 BTU and I think I paid $496 on Amazon. Adding the reversing valve and a few other components should not make the unit cost $3,000. That's insane. I'd probably buy one or two of them if the cost were under $600 a piece.
Yeah, the cost is a tough pill to swallow, but I’ve talked to a few people since the video came out and it’s more complex than just adding a reversing valve. There’s a bunch of things in the design that require more complex engineering and parts. It’s also a low number manufacturing run being a new product, which jacks costs up too. I would hope that if this catches on we’ll see a price drop with larger volumes.
@@JustSomeGuy009 you are correct I actually have a 120VAC mini split air conditioner and heater with such reversing valve at home and the cost was $700 USD about 3 years ago.
@@UndecidedMF it's more likely the economics of scale as well as the manufacturer wanting all his investment back. This is a niche application and so the economics of trying to recover all the original r&d may force the higher price. The manufacturer also figures front load the ROI and price it to $3000 to get return up front/sooner.
@@JustSomeGuy009 The concept is simple, getting it right is not. It's not just reversing the flow. HX sizing, pipe sizing, keeping the compressor oil in the compressor and not circulating with the refrigerant, are just a couple of the things that become more difficult when you can no longer assume that the refrigerant flows in one direction. This unit is also designed to work in heating mode down to a much lower temperature than your typical HVAC unit, and probably operates at pressures that are inconvenient for use in a small household unit (there's a reason that R-12 originally won and these newer refrigerants are just showing up in this application in the last couple years), that drives higher costs as well.
In Europe, in buildings with central heating, we install special radiator valves that stop the water flow when a specific temperature is reached, and each tenant pays only for what they use. Heat pumps are definitely better, but the problem of some apartments being too hot was solved a couple of decades ago.
The other thing about steam in dense city environments is that it often comes "for free" (at least from an energy usage standpoint). The steam is often sourced from nearby power generators, were water was boiled to make steam to turn a turbine. They could just let that steam out into the atmosphere, or they could make use of it in places that need heat. So, it's piped into nearby buildings, and used to drive the heating systems.
I don't know what you talk about. During heatwaves in Europe there is nothing you can do without an AC. I would like to get an AC, but all I got is a cylindrical hole in the wall of my rented apartment.
Yeah I did that in my house and it works really well with controlling the temperature per room, but it does take a little time to set up and each room being different needs being setup individually to get the right temperature you want. Once you have it setup, it works like a dream, each one switches on or off depending on the setting you have and the temperature you want, the advantage is, you end up using less energy whiles feeling more comfortable in a room because the temperature stays at a given level so not to let it get too cold or too hot, and you can do this individually on a per-room basis. For instance, one room in the house, the heating rarely comes on and usually in winter for a short time because the room doesn't get too cold, whereas the bathroom needs more heating so it comes on more aggressively, once it's set for each room, you don't have to do anything and the heating comes on and off automatically per room as needed, which in my case, is not very much because we insulated the house about 3 years ago and it doesn't really get that cold in winter that heating is rarely needed, this is in the UK by the way. With that said, the same system could be much cheaper with a heat pump, but considering how little heating we use, it's not worth getting a heat pump at the current price.
12:53 trust me, in Tokyo heatpumps are the standard already, nearly all apartments come with at least 1, they are renter friendly as apartments are designed with slots for them to add them if they were not included. and the typical mini split heat pump is around $500 my apartment has 2, one for each room
This. $3k USD for these units is insane when, as you said, a mini split is less expensive. I believe you can get a 4 room mini split for around $3-5k before rebates and if esthetics of the building are important, I'd rather see a few ground base heat pumps (which you can easily hide) vs multiple units hanging off the front of the building. My other thought is AC units at around $300 have thermostats so they're better than the $150 units which just cycle the pump when cooling is needed. AKA they run constantly. While they have the benefit of also efficiently heating, as Matt said, most renters have heating baked into their rental agreements. $1500-2k before rebates. Still more expensive than a 2 room mini however, the convenience and ability to pretty much place it anywhere you have an outlet, justifies the cost. But not $3k lol
@@shawnduffy279 This is what happens when factories for the AC-as-a-brick have been set up and paid for by private entities, then refuse to adapt to new available technologies without their "friends" in government bribing them to ship in that new tech. This is the kind of BS that the first hippies responded to with "never trust anyone over 40".
Yes, my Tokyo apartment had 1 in the bedroom and a larger unit in the living room. Quiet, efficient and not so expensive. Not to mention almost every apartment in Japan has a washing machine...
Can you provide a source for oyur claim that the heat pumps are actually doing heating? From everything i can find the majority of the acs in japan have resistant heating included, but not actually heat pump heating anywhere below 10 degrees C. Which would also explain some of the price disparity, as it requires different and more expensive tech and coolants for near or subzero heat pumping.
You are paying the "American's think heat pumps are magic new futuristic technology" tax. In Australia something like this is readily available for about $320 USD and has been readily available for over 50 years. I hear of people in North America and Europe getting heat pump air conditioners installed and paying $10k $20k $30k $40k USD and am completely astounded, your installers are absolutely taking the piss. I installed a whole-of-house ducted air conditioner in my house AND 3 mini splits (26kW or 90,000 BTU) all for just over $10,000 USD.
Midea already manufactures and sells two models at 8000 and 12000 BTU for $350 and $500 respectively, there is no way a 20,000 BTU unit should cost over $1000. This price is only so high because the government bid request said "no more than $3000"
In the winter time when it's -10F, that outside evaporator is going to be probably close to -30F and it's going to be collecting condensation (ice) and you'll need resistive heat to melt that off. Then because it's an inverse U shape, in the summertime, you're going to need to pump the condensation up the front and back to the condenser. Then you have the humidifier setting when in heat mode. And all of these needs to operate at 1500 watts or less. All of these extra solutions need more parts which adds more complexity and requires more sensors and software to control them. Then all of it needs to be tested to withstand the elements. A heat pump is not just an AC that runs in reverse, I wish these youtubers would stop that meme. An AC with just a reversing valve would be a pretty shitty heat pump that would not work in many conditions.
@@keenheat3335 that won't necessarily work depending on the efficiency rating and refrigerant used. also most cheap ACs are designed to tilt back a little so condensation drips out the back.
It took 4 years for me to pay off the cost of the Heat pump system for my home. It has lowered my electric costs by an average of $120/month, and I still have 6 years of my 100% parts and labor warranty left. I know it's a large upfront cost, but wow those things are great. Glad to see that they are expanding these to more situations. For reference my electric costs $0.12/KWH.
@@sodanakin I appreciate the joke, but no. Because of how heat pumps work it is 3X cheaper to run and I still have cooling. The idea is using waste heat is definitely a fun topic though.
For that to be relevant to this unit your furnace cost would have to have been 6 times higher than a standard install which it wasn't. It's just a few thousand more on what is a 30k system instead of a 27k system for a typical home. Now run that payback if the HVAC install on your home was $150-180,000. That's the numbers on this unit and it's about half the efficiency spread of what yours is compared to a standard install. I hope this didn't come across as critical but a lot of people he that are pros want people to know to not buy this unit. I'm a builder so I've been running the number on efficiency for decades in real world builds. Heat pumps at the entry level still aren't worth the money on the lifecycle of the unit. They're very very close. Scale matters so on a 10,000sf home get them. FYI the best return on products is LED lighting on any exterior timed lighting. Paying someone $150 an hour to change the bulbs has a payback in 3 to 9 months depending on electric rate. Us normal construction workers know more about actual efficiency that anyone making products. The geothermal heat pumps are the worst because so many units are crap. People that work with them know that only Bosch units should be installed. Period. If you get one serviced ask them to replace the guts with a Bosch no matter what brand you have when they start acting up. Every $600 service call knocks that payback date back a year and most units need one every year after a few years. Like after 3 to 5 years it becomes an annual problem.
This looked so much like an add. No questions about the efficiency loss of the insulation of the window by that presence of the AC unit. Only a price comparison against non-reversible AC unit. That being said the comparison against replacing the building heat source by a more efficient one was welcome.
The profile is so small that the window is only cracked open a few inches. I'm sure the unit kit comes with insulation that you can put in to fill any gaps, which is better than just the glass window.
A windows is the worst part of a building. Putting a strip of insulation around the gaps caused by installing these makes the window it's installed in MORE efficient than the other windows.
I have this model, and I love it. It's so quiet. But yeah, I'd never pay three grand for a portable unit like that. Of course, I have also never lived in an area that snows, so I don't know how much I would value my heat at. We just have deathly hot weather and comfortable temps in the winter.
I just installed one of those Midea U-Shaped ACs. About $450.00 delivered. At over 6X that price, this is just price gouging. Probably because NYC is paying for it.
Wait...$3K?!? A 12K BTU minisplit WITH installation is $1500 in Arizona, and it is 20 SHEER. If I were a landlord, I would put a whole bunch of them on the roof where I can centralize the electricity and connections and just run lines down the outside of the building to each apartment, which...is what they do here in three and four storied buildings. I see the potential, and the utility of these units, but...$3K?!?
It's a scam for that price. A traditional window AC unit is already a "heat pump" pumping heat from indoors outside. All it takes is one little valve to let it run in the opposite direction to be what's commonly called a heat pump and now it's some magical overpriced device for thousands of dollars. There should be options all the way down to $200. It's not special.
1500 in arizona seems like some meth head doing it. Any legit person here in Missouri wants 3k for a mini split install. I did a lot of my own stuff and only had a tech come do the pipe connection and vaccuuming the lines, and it ran me about 1500 just for that.
Traditional style window AC units are available in reverse cycle (heat pump) form and some also allow a little transfer of fresh and stale air between indoors and outdoors so are MUCH healthier and oh yes cheaper
If they want to be realistic about being "environmentally friendly" with these, then someone is going to need to design one from the ground up that has serviceability in mind. Even the best compressors have a finite lifespan. Replacing several hundred boiler and chiller systems that are designed to be serviceable vs tens of thousands of units that are more or less disposable is not "environmentally friendly" when looking at the big picture.
So a compressor lasts on average ten years. Not exactly disposable, but not a legacy system either. Seems a better compressor is all that's needed, not a ground up reengineering.
@thecocktailian2091 I don't disagree with you, but that 10 year figure you mention is because home appliance type things are intentionally designed to last 10 years, we probably have the capability already to make them last much longer, but we won't... because money... and throwing away 1, 20 ton chiller compressor every 10 years is not the same as throwing away hundreds of 9,000 btu compressors every 10 years.
You would be surprised just how much energy a lot of these systems save in 5-10 years, even if they're disposable they could still come out way ahead if they last 10 years. I agree that they *should* be serviceable though, and be built to last longer than 10 years, aiming for merely "less bad" isn't exactly a noble goal
Come on man, don't replace the brakes on that "clunker" get a whole new car! We already established new everything is better for the environment like 20 years ago.
I live in Europe and have an apartment with individual gas heating and radiotors. I recently installed a dual inverter split unit airconditioner (basically an air to air heat pump) and although it does heat well until about -7 degrees C but in those kind of temperatures it stops frequently to de-ice which defeats the object, a problem most heat pumps have. Also a single heat pump room unit only serves one room thus you may need more of them and it will often be difficult to heat the bathroom when it is enclosed. With dual inverter airconditioners one can have multiple indoor units on one external unit. So in my apartment I still need my gas boiler in winter although the airconditioner did save me some money by minimizing the time I use the boiler and as I had it installed for €2200 it was not as expensive as the room units you propose. So yes I think there will be good use cases for the window units but one would have to consider carefully where it makes sense certainly at a cost of €3000 per unit. Further as someone else already mentioned, most apartments in Europe have a different window lay-out so these would not fit there.
Several years ago I picked up a Midea U-shaped window air conditioner and was Very impressed with it's efficiency and its practical design. I spent a career designing air conditioners and wish I had thought up this clever form factor myself.
Nice of you to be concerned with us, but every home in Tokyo has a heat pump - I have two. The wall mountings, electrical supply, ducts, and supports for the external unit are standardized and built into every house and apartment.
The situation in Tokyo is a bit different than here in the US. Many of the buildings in the US are older stock, and there is much more demand here for older homes with 'character'. The notion of a home with character is not very common in the urban areas of Japan. An older home in Japan is more likely to be considered cause for either a complete demo and rebuild, or at least a gut and remodel. Those details make the standardization needed much more likely there.
@@Loreroth The discussion here was more about apartments, though, which complicates installation significantly. Many buildings don't allow installation of anything on the facade, which rules out a split system unless the building isn't too tall to have the outside units on the roof. Once above a certain building height, the refrigerant runs become impractical, plus of course you're going to run out of roof space.
That's cool. Now make them available for people who's windows open sideways, like mine. Oh, and while we're at it write laws that shift more of the burden for saving the environment off the backs of the average consumer and on large corporations maybe.
Until they change the form factor, many renters can't use them. Anyone with a bare coil radiator right under the window (very common in NYC) can't have anything hanging below the window on the inside of the apartment. Also many older units in NYC have abnormally wide windows (40-44" compared to the average of 32-36" that window units are designed for) due to being old enough that wider windows for more airflow was the cooling solution, and most current ACs simply will not fit without custom work, so the heatpumps may similarly not actually be self-installable. Additionally, why are these so expensive? Heat pumps are just a few more valves than ACs. I could see $1000 for the fancy form factor, but when the average AC in the 8000BTU range is $350, $3000 if a ludicrous markup.
Extra wide is fine tho you can put insulation or even put two of these units to fill the gap. The advantage these have is they make a smaller opening to fill with insulation than your average window unit
I lived in NYC apartments for over 40 years. Yes, some windows have radiators in front of them, but most do not. Not everything will work everywhere. Extra wide windows aren't a problem. There are many ways to fill the gap.
The 350$ AC you are referring to literally has zero efficiency as you need to cool the evaporator by dumping cold air from the inside to the outside using an air hose. Effectively creating a (tiny) vacuum inside which draws in warm / humid air from all other rooms / outside. Effectively heating up your room even more due to heat radiation from the hose / casing of such ACs. These things are only good for cooling if you sit in front of the airstream. They are cheap because they are very very inefficient. The new ACs seen in this video solve this issue as there is no breach of isolation between inside and outside. Additionally you are re-circulating the already cooled air inside and cool it even more which has a cooling curve similar to an exponential decay.
The government makes a problem, and the private section has to find a fix, making everything more expensive. Thank you, government, for being the biggest waste of money known to man.
This is a great idea, and would be much quieter than traditional AC window units. Though I rarely see buildings where the window opens vertically anymore, they all seem to open horizontally now, it was a lot of work to install a traditional AC unit in my house, with the horizontally opening window.
Most windows I come across are like this too opening side to side instead of up and down. Yet there is almost nothing made to work with this style of window.
The point on "common denominator" heating is a little miss leading. Some of these water pump systems have thermostatic valves in each room so the water just doesn't circulate in the rooms that are already at temperature. I'm sure this is not all but I would hope most of these style of heating system have something similar in them. They could probably be retrofitted as all.
Midea already sells a window unit heat pump, 8000 BTU (MAW08HV1CWT) for $380 and 12000 (MAW12HV1CWT) BTU for $500 on amazon. It doesn't make any sense for them to introduce a $3000 unit. Anyone with sales or marketing experience could tell you that price point is going to be a failure.
Those claim not to heat below 41F outside air temperature. My guess is that limitation comes from a combination of a different refrigerant and the lack of a defrost system.
The 350$ AC you are referring to literally has zero efficiency as you need to cool the evaporator by dumping cold air from the inside to the outside using an air hose. Effectively creating a (tiny) vacuum inside which draws in warm / humid air from all other rooms / outside. Effectively heating up your room even more due to heat radiation from the hose / casing of such ACs. These things are only good for cooling if you sit in front of the airstream. They are cheap because they are very very inefficient. The new ACs seen in this video solve this issue as there is no breach of isolation between inside and outside. Additionally you are re-circulating the already cooled air inside and cool it even more which has a cooling curve similar to an exponential decay.
I do like how this channel doesn't not hide big important questions or issues with a system they are discussing. Being open about renters having to pick up the cost with the window units and landlords may wanting to do this is very honest and it's refreshing to see! Thank you sir and keep making great content. 😊
@@minihunt4093 The only thing missing is the fact that landlords will not lower rents even though their costs will go down, so renters will be paying for heating twice, essentially.
These sort of models mostly work for the weird slide-up windows that Americans use, any house with hinged windows are gonna have a much harder time fitting them so I need too see some more options
You also have to have nothing below the window, my road in the UK has all slide-up (sash) windows but also a small roof just below the window that would prevent you installing this design.
They are called double-hung windows. And they are pretty neat IMO. You can slide up or you can push the outside screen to the top and slide them down instead. Having the window cracked at the top is nice if you have shades that can open just at the top, if you want a window to let warmer air out while a window fan blows in from another window, or you don't want a toddler putting their fingers in the dirty sill.
Yeah, double hung windows are pretty neat, and they also don't require any space inside or outside the window plane for opening which can be quite helpful. They're only common in certain pockets though; more of the homes I've lived in (both apartments & houses) have had casement windows than double hung.
I haven’t determined whether $3k is a reasonable price for performance, but in combination with existing solar + battery, these seem like an excellent long-term solution for cutting heating fuel and grid electricity costs. I look forward to battery improvements and all-around efficiency gains that can eliminate the need to pay for energy entirely. To that end, these window units are a positive step along the way.
Wow, these things are pretty neat. I lived in Hoboken, Jersey City, Manhattan and Brooklyn so I know the pain as well. I would have loved to have one of these units when I lived in the area. In NYC, even though I had permanently installed passthrough AC units my electric bill would be around $300-$350 in July and August (I also ran a home media server, but most of my energy expenditure went into keeping my apartment comfortable since I WFH). Due to poor insulation it would still be very humid inside (60%+ ) even though it was in the low 70s. We'd frequently get mass text messages from the electric company during heat waves to tell us to limit our AC and general electricity usage because we risk causing a blackout! They seem to be more efficient than window ACs, but the problem also is that the insulation and energy efficiency of the buildings themselves suck. I moved to Miami about 9 months ago and live in a building that is maybe 20-30 years old now and has central air/heat that I control. The worst its gotten in here was 67% humidity and 76F and that was when I came back yesterday after not having the HVAC system on for 5 days, while having my server running. I generally keep it around 72-74F and it stays around 55% humidity in here. Even with the server running and me being home all the time, it costs me about $100/month.
I've wanted something like this since I got one of Midea's U shaped ACs. Just flip it upside down, duh. Now we just need one for windows that open/close sideways. A C shaped one.
I bought two for my house and after a year one stopped cooling very well and the other one was making an annoying noise. So, year three on my house I ended up installing an air source heat pump, because my furnace needed replaced. In the second year I tried to get my units serviced, but the product was out of warranty, and there was no one in my city that serviced Midea. They are quieter than a normal AC and when they work they are great. When compared to a standard old-fashioned window AC these units are more fragile. Unless the heat pump version had a great warranty, I would be leery of these upcoming products. There might be more value in repairing them and you would also not be taking them in and out in the same fashion as an AC. Another consideration is can these be installed where you have a roof outside the window. We had to install the brace upside down on one unit to get it to rest at a slight angle for water to properly drain, the upright U worked in this case, but I am not sure the upside down one would work in my upstairs windows with the porch roof so near the window.
@@Sleepingvampires What noise were you dealing with? My Midea 8K BTU unit is around three years old, and it has always had a bit of a rattling problem that crops up ever so often. When it does rattle, I've noticed that simply pushing up on the bottom of the inside portion of the unit stops the rattling noise. Fortunately, since I started using extra window locks to push down the window onto the unit (the unit doesn't perfectly fit into my window), I rarely have issues with the rattling. Although, it does have a habit of getting louder (fan noise) when it's nearly done cooling. I use it in a computer room due to having two computers in there that can generate plenty of heat.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Yeah but they're not maximum efficiency heat pumps and don't allow you to almost entirely close the window. They're just a **tad** narrower than normal window a/c units. You still have to fill a decent gap and your window is now effectively much smaller. My condo HOA may still say no because they don't want stuff hanging out above garages (window a/c's are currently banned), but I would absolutely pay around 2k for a casement window heat pump that allowed the window to shut 95% (if it was allowed). Our bedrooms with casement windows are the only rooms that get hot. The rest of the condo which has hung windows doesn't even need cooling most of the time and it's half a floor downstairs from the bedrooms so the cool air wouldn't get up to the hot rooms if I put a unit there. So instead I have an annoyingly space inefficient portable inverter a/c, plus various fans upstairs. We have a condo unit to our left, right, and above, so no easy option to externally mount a classic heat pump mini split either.
For $3,000 it should come with a custom airbrushed design and also do my laundry. There is no reason it should be more than $500, they are milking free (taxpayer) government handouts.
Is it? This thing has to be constantly blowing air at leg height or child height. How is that comfortable or even tolerable? What about the noise level if this thing is going to be near a bed?
@@hrvojelasic5794These are the first ever units which combine the ease of a window mounted reverse cycle air conditioner with a split system reverse cycle air conditioner. They simply take a 1980s window mounted reverse air con unit and split it into two sections (like a split system reverse cycle air conditioner of the 1990s) but putting the compressor outside and the fan unit inside, making them quieter inside the house. That is, by definition, a revolutionary design.
Midea makes a large fraction of our dehumidifiers in the US. They're manufactured in China, under more than 50 different brand names. They typically fail soon after warranty expiration, in a way that makes them unfixable. Landfills throughout the US are overflowing with beautiful new-looking Midea-made appliances.
@@freecycling6687 Its not hard to figure out. Most small appliances are made by them under different names. Especially store owned brands. And they are subpar quality.
I stayed at a B&B in PEI that had these in their rooms. Don't know about the price but they were very quiet and efficient. Much better than the units in hotel rooms.
I would love one of these. My home has a central heat pump, but one half of the house has missing, damaged, or absent insulation, and the heat pump gets overwhelmed. I have two major road blocks to getting one: It gets over 113*F here in the summer, and all of my windows are horizontal, instead of vertical, opening. Pretty sure it would make sense for me to get one of these and a simple Solar set up, and be able to run it off the grid for 90% of the time I would need it.
My first thought is a heat pump that can't cool at 96F is basically a nonstarter....Just when you need it most it doesn't work. I also think their price premium for mobility is just too high. $3k for a transportable unit? You can get a Mr. Cool 9k BTU mini-split (20 SEER) for about a third of that price ($1250). Again, I get there's value in portability and minisplits have installation costs but IMHO that doesn't justify 3x value. All the high-rises in Asia have minisplit heat pump compressors built in on the outside so I don't see that market driving the desire/demand for window units. The buildings are too tall and the windows can't be opened. Somebody else said it, but I'll repeat it. I don't see how AC systems double in price when they have heat pump reverse flow capability. I imagine if AC was outlawed and Heat Pumps were the only option they'd come down in price due to competition. IHMO....they still seemed to be priced as a subsidized novelty in the USA rather than a commodity product like in Asia.
I believe that range is just to maintain the stated efficiency rating, not that it won't work. Plus in context it makes sense, NY doesn't have a climate that gets above that point often if at all.
@jhoughjr1 my larger unit heats just fine in freezing weather I've been as far as 40° below freezing and it still worked although once you get below 10° f it becomes less efficient but it still heats and there's no auxiliary heater
I don't love that the COP for gas furnaces was listed as 1 or less. Technically true but it really ignores the electricity production carbon footprint issue. In my area the effective COP of a high efficiency gas furnace is above 2.4 due to most of the electricity being created by natural gas. In that case it's just more efficient from a carbon standpoint to burn natural gas as a heat source then to burn it to create electricity which is then used to move heat in a heat pump.
Not Exactly. Natural gas power plants run around 40-60% efficiency. Transmission loss over the grid is around 5%. Some heat pumps get as high as 500% efficiency (closer to 250% in sub zero temperature) So .5 * .95 * (2.5:5) = 1.188 : 2.375. So most heat pumps are far more efficient than just burning natural gas in your home. This is why heat pumps are almost always better unless you are consistently seeing sub zero temperatures, like in Alaska or North Dakota.
@@matthewjohnson3656 agree in total ...if within scop 5 or better (5kw+ heat for 1 kw electricity= there are no more further calculations required if it makes sense or not, it does, even viable solar offgrid friendly nowadays!!! but still 3K$ or more is a dealbreaker 1 in each room when having each one implemented though...
For your information, there are window AC units which serves both heating and cooling. It costs a bit higher than those with cooling only but the difference is small. When used as heat pump, it reverses the operation of the air conditioner. Midea and many other brands provide such products. In area which is not too cold in winter, it is one good option.
Few even have portable a/c and heat pumps. I had one, heat pump worked great thru winter, with the exception of the week we had in single digits. Heat pumps aren't too great once you start getting below 32F. A/c part of it though is another story. It's garbage, leaked out the bottom near electric cord. Getting ready to battle with the company for a refund.
Really depends where you live. In Florida I have a 5000 BTU "box standard" Window-mounted AC unit. It easily cools my 150 Sq ft Office/Den. For our brief and relatively mild winters, a 1500 watt element-driven space heater no bigger than a shoebox makes the room toasty warm in minutes and can be moved around for best effect. Together they cost less than $250 and have each been in usage for nearly 5 years. That is main attraction.
I've got two window heat pumps, but they only work down to 41°F. They're built like regular window air conditioners, but they're reversible. Look for A/Cs with heat. One of them is a Midea. The other is Perfect Aire. The DOE really needs to get on this, because new heat pump designs can work much lower. I'm looking at a mini-split that will work as a heat pump down to -13°F. It will also cool with outside temperatures as high as 122°F. That is something we're going to be needing in the coming decades.
Great idea but the defining issue will be the style of window. Crank, narrow, wide, horizontal hinge, vertical slide, center pivot, etc. More flexibility at the design stage will definitely lead to more purchases.
At the end of the day, for most people it's cost that matters. My friend got a Heat pump installed, and due to high electricity costs, he's paying more then 2x what cost him when he had natural gas heating. The energy guide has electricity at ¢13/kWh, I pay 3x that when you combine deliver/usage fees. While heat pumps are excellent technology, I don't expect them to get lots of traction when it's cheaper to use gas heating. Though NYC is banning gas heating in new buildings.
You pay for gas by the therm. A COP of 1 takes about 30 kwh for 1 therm. So even if you have a good COP (say 3-5) and a therm of gas was twice as much as a kwh and the gas furnace wasn't that efficient it is still less money to run the gas. If they take natural gas away, wood furnace or propane is still cheaper.
@@barongerhardt Right, 1 therm is about 29.3 kWh. But where I live, electricity is about 3x the cost of gas per kWh, and a COP of 3.0 is really optimistic for a reversible air source heat pump in cold weather. Remember, these machines lose efficiency AND heating capacity as the outside temperature gets lower. I have a (partial-home) mini-split heat pump rated to continue functioning down to -13F, but it's cheaper to use my ancient gas boiler below about 30F, and the heat pump has trouble actually keeping the first floor warm below 20F. I know, "old home problems", but until I can get a major insulation upgrade that's how the math works. On top of that, a dedicated heater system can distribute the heat better than a system that has to do both heating and cooling. The thermal gradients in my home are greater when using the min-split heat pump than when using the boiler distributed through hot water baseboards. Still, for keeping warm in spring and autumn the heat pump is great. It's a backup for if the boiler kicks the bucket, and it diversifies my heating energy sources in case the price of methane spikes.
Yeah. Comparing thermal efficiency across fuel sources isn't really useful. There's an argument to be made that the government's role is to internalize externalities, meaning they should price the climate costs of using natural gas into its rate, and that might even out the cost. Comparing efficiency is useless unless the waste heat not utilized is problematic.
Although you mention furnaces have a COP of less than 1, I think its important to mention its not an apples to apples comparison when comparing COPs of different energy sources and how they might effect their cost to run.
Comparing cost is going to differ dramatically by region but even the idea that something that is 2-3x more efficient might be more expensive to run highlights the degree we subsidize fossil fuels and ignore the cost of externalities.
In 1976 I was in the Bahamas. It was cold that winter and my first night there I froze. I didn’t know the air conditioner could work as a heater from then on. I was fine wherever I stayed because that was standard down there. I remember it, but definitely Improved when I realized I could Switch the air conditioner to heat mode. This must be the same idea and of course it doesn’t get as cold here..
I had a Bosch Heatpump replace my central AC unit. Used same duct system. It cost $7000k but I got a rebate for $3500, so in the end it cost me $3500. It’s a large unit cooling and heating my 2000 sq ft ‘95 condo. Seems cheaper than $3000 for a one room unit. I do love my heat pump.
This concept goes way way beyond just New York apartment dwellers. This is basically a one piece mini split that can go in nearly any window and plug into 120V. These could be used in nearly any dwelling, school, or workplace, and provide a nearly instant and cost-effective HVAC system. That's just huge. A lot of homeowners have been moving to mini-splits and often you need multiple separate units for an entire home. They need professional installation. At an average cost of $5,000 each these days installed that is pretty expensive. We just installed one, but it only covers two rooms. Also most run on 240V, which has to be run to each unit. I've been waiting for these saddle shaped heat cool units to hit the general market but as yet they're still not really there. When they do, it would be a real revolution in HVAC across the market. You could easily buy a number of these for your home and ditch your central heat and air. I would buy two tomorrow.
Umm you most certainly do not need a professional to install a mini split. Tons of women online doing it start to finish... They are marketed as easy instal..... Maybe a electrical outlet needs professionally installed at most. Did you forget these window units cost 3 times as much as a split unit or even a full unit? Not worth it at all until they come down in price.
Matt, there are temperature control valves for radiators that work. They aren't that expensive and there are models that are self contained. They do have to be maintained and repaired when not in use. I am not even talking about the fancy electronic one, just bi-metallic strip ones that let up turn your heat up and down on each radiator. Just mandating them as code for the city for all residences and enforcing it would save a lot of energy and save a lot of money in energy bills for the landlords. They can set the max at 80 F (old people and those walking around naked for various reasons) and then just watch the saving roll in. I am pretty sure that they are code required for new construction, but updating the code for public housing and offering a tax break to landlords that install them and show they are working by having them inspected (get the landlords to insist on having their properties be inspected by a city inspector, see what I did there) would probably work to get them installed city wide.
I haven't heard of the valves needing any maintenance. Even if they need a tiny bit of maintenance they are definitely the way to go for centrally steam/water heated buildings. The best part is that they offer proportional control instead of the on-off of a traditional thermostat.
@@eDoc2020 Any steam system is going to have increased erosion of the parts where there is turbulence and/or high flow rates. Control valves have both, so the valve and the valve seat erode over time and either need adjusting or replacement. The valves used in steam systems account for this and are either really overbuilt ball valves or carrot valves that need tightening periodically. Steam erodes metal and most materials as it flows through it, even steel. This is why boilers require a licensed boiler maker/operator to work on them and do checks on them along with regular inspection by the government. They will fail by leaking, then explode if you don't keep them repaired. This is also why steam pipes and valves get leaks over time and need expensive maintenance all the time in older buildings, with the system becoming more and more trashed as it gets older. The reason why the radiators don't wear out is because they are a part of the systems where the steam contracts and loses pressure as it cools on the cold surface of the radiator, so this protects them. Being made out of thick cast iron also gives them a lot to lose. I think it not being required by code is why the landlords aren't using them on the East coast. It could also be that they don't want the lines to the colder apartments to be failing sooner because of the heightened flow to them so they are running the same flow in the entire system. There is also the issue of how the system is plumbed/designed that having the variable valves on it they might need to run higher pressure to keep it from dipping too low when they are kicking on and off as demand happens to prevent the steam in the system from dropping pressure and changing from dry steam to wet steam or even condensing into water and then causing even more problems. I think this lower operating pressure in their system's design is what it limiting their use of the valves, but there is a work around on that, and that is to use electronically controlled valves at the radiators that are centrally controlled so a pressure drop never happens. You can have the valves be mesh networked over a type of industrial WiFi designed for this exact thing and get the power to run them off of a thermo-electric generator in the valve, so you wouldn't have to run wires. It is possible that wiring them might still be needed, but we are looking at low voltage CAT-6 with 24V AC on it for power then, which is easy to run.
In reference to the grid and the strain all the heat pumps would collectively add... Are they not just replacing space heaters and window a/c units currently in use?
The concern is that we're replacing fossil fuel heating with electricity, but it will be a mix of that and replacing resistance heating. But regardless it's a non-issue. We aren't going to roll it out all at once and grid upgrades are happening all the time with this planning in mind. It's nothing new.
I think many buildings have the central heat and many residents have window ACs. But the heating is at low efficiency. Imagine 1,000,000 BTUs of fuel is burned in a boiler room to heat a building in the winter. Now, with everyone having heat pumps, it would take only 400,000 BTUs to heat. But, it does use electricity instead of natural gas or oil, so the grid does get strained more. Overall, less energy used though.
@@rclewis01This^ It's more efficient energy, but MORE total electricity usage overall. Yes, some will be converting from shitty window a/c to heat pump (which will actually use less electricity), but many will be converting from natural gas as well.
Several years ago i owned a 660 sq ft bungalow. Never had heat, used tiny kitchen oven and small space heater. Eventually installed window unit that had heat and cool for $700.
Another option could be for the building owners to install Grey Water Collecting tanks for temporally collection water from showers and clothes washing and then retrieve the waste heat from the water for recycling that same heat back into apartments. This is often an huge overlooked source of heat that is readily available with the right type of heating/plumbing system.
I prefer Mideas current U shape...for $300 delivered to our door, it's 12kbtu 15SEER, it keeps our living room cool and it's using way less energy than our old 8kbtu window AC that could barely keep up. With our kids, pets and furniture I want it higher up, not lower to the ground. Contemplated getting a mini split but after factoring in installation supplies/costs even DIY it would take way longer to pay for itself...plus we can bring the window unit with us or switch it out easier when the next efficiency leap happens. The one we got doesn't do heating but all they'd really have to do is add the reversing valve, the app even shows heating options it just doesn't work. Natural gas is still just so much cheaper to heat with, compared to $.27/kWh.
My power is a bit cheaper but that is close to what I pay for 1 therm of natural gas. Which is 30x better than a COP of 1 electric system that Matt is always implying. Doing the math an old trash tier 50% efficient gas furnace at $0.30/therm has a cost of $0.60 per useful therm. That is still less cost to run than a heat pump with a COP of 5 and power at $0.15/kwh ( 1/5 * .15 * 29.3 = $0.90 / useful therm). The reality is that most of these heat pumps start to fall way short of a COP of 3 when temps get even remotely close to winter temps in my region and a decent gas furnace is 90-95% efficient.
@@kennyiglesias622 Upper Peninsula Power Company. Basically the only provider and they don't even make enough of their own power all of the time they have to import from Wisconsin sometimes. It's what's making buying a used EV not even worth it, until I can figure out more solar. Just put up a 3-4kWh array and that's offsetting a lot of our home loads... should pay for itself in 3-5 years.
This really is ground breaking. I’ve converted a vintage travel trailer into my man cave and a little unit like this fits my heating/cooling needs perfectly! 120v to my backyard, and no plumbing/refrigerant lines makes it easy.
I own 2 heat pumps. One must remember that both sides of the unit, indoor and out need to drain. In the Winter the outdoor unit will have to drain liquid water from time to time. Areas below could become slick or just covered in ice.
Could you account for the cost of rebuilding the sliding window into the cost of operating the heat pump? Also, is it worth the sliding window with a more insulated window? 🤔🤔
@@bob_mosavo As Matt says, the one down side of these types of technologies is the high up-front cost and the amount of years they take to recoup that initial investment. Having to replace otherwise fine windows (I assume they aren't single pane windows from 1932), just adds to that upfront cost and takes longer to see a return on investment.
I'm sure that Germans with come up with something fairly soon. For now, I use a vertical adapter with a hose connected to the mobile heat pump. It's not perfect, but it works.
Every year i checked to see if anyone was making these because years ago it came to me that this form factor was a much better alternative than the standard window AC, but it wasn't until a few years ago that i finally started seeing them being sold. Maybe in five years it'll become the standard and will finally reach a much more affordable price.
I like the Gree Mini Split with their quieter, and higher, and lower ranges for both heating and cooling. No DIY units like others, so that adds thousands, but one of those would be the way to go along with a wood stove, or rocket mass heater for back up. A RMH could be used for cooling as well where I live, pumping cool night air through it every night, releasing it through its clay mass daily.
You can get both traditional and upright oriented reverse cycle (heat pump) window air conditioner units for those windows but some transfer of fresh air is also important health wise and not all necessarily do it
Whether its for "everyone" or not depends on whether one can go into the local big box store (the orange, blue or green one) and buy one off the shelf without taking out a personal loan. Fancy new expensive tech is inaccessible to the average "everyone" - likewise for government programs that only provide them to limited numbers of people in specific locations and/or that meet specific eligibility requirements. Ah nine minutes in and we get to the reveal. Absolutely batshit crazy three grand or more pricing. Nope, its only for people that get them free from a govt program, or people that can blow a big pile of money. Definitely not for "everyone"
That’s the problem with so many of these devices, the cost should be at or less than the more complicated legacy devices. These new heat pumps are very simple and you would hope the costs come down dramatically over the next few years and we can get one for a few hundred bucks from a Home Depot.
Then let the people with enough money adopt the product, wait a year or two and see if the prices go down and buy the product at a reduced cost. Planning ahead is the way of life.
Granted, to get onboard is expensive, but the heat pump side of this would likely save $200/$500 per year in areas where winter heating is required. Not enough to initially justify the current purchase price, but if that price comes down to about $2000, the overall cost is a net save.
Yes, this is a good idea. Some things to consider. Typical 120 V volt receptacles in North America are supplied by a 15 Amp breaker but the largest size appliances that are normally allowed to be manufactured t intended to be connected to a 120 volt receptacle are rated at 12 Amps. If you do the math 120 multiplied 12 is about 1500 Watts or 1.5 KW. Normally there are several receptacles connected to one 15 Amp breaker so you can plug in several different appliances but if you exceed 15 Amps the breaker will trip and turn everything off until you reset it. A heat pump rated 9000 BTU/hr heat pumps will probably be in the range of 8 to 9 Amps which is in the 1000 Watt range. In the older apartment buildings if every apartment connects a heat pump it adds up to allot of extra power and the older electrical servicers for these apartments may have to be upgraded. This is the same problem with installing electric vehicle chargers in the underground or outdoor parking lots in older building and condominiums. Sure the electrical services can be upgraded but it will be complicated and costly.
I moved into a "green" apartment building and it has converted me to an efficiency nerd. In winter, despite now having a W/D and dishwasher, my electric bill cratered to 1/4 of what it was in a smaller unit. In summer, it essentially vanishes as the solar system takes over. So well insulated the heat pump runs for a grand total of 90 minutes a day.
There's always a point of diminishing returns. If you're building a house and spend an extra $100K to make it super energy efficient, it's going to take a century of -$200 on your electricity bill to break even.
The pretty common problem in older buildings with radiant heat producing so much heat that you have to open the windows is a design feature of the time. The belief that fresh air is crucial, that residents should be able to obtain fresh air in winter while having warm homes.
I’m sooo amazed you are so far behind in the US - and the prices on hvac systems😮 In Europe we have used far more efficient and cheaper systems for more than 15 years😮 But congrats - step in the right direktion👍👍👍
The problem is you can't use the window while it's in there (just like an AC unit). I saw a video about alternatives to a Mini Split or in wall HVAC. Sure there are advantages over a typical in window Heat/AC, like it doesn't block the view, but you have to take out the screen, and put insulation between the top and bottle window parts so no option to use the window without removing that insulation and going without a screen. There are times where it's always cheaper to open a few windows and get cross breeze than run anything.
Lol these cost more than a regular mini split heat pump. I am sure as other brands start making these the price will drop considerably. Until then NO SALE.
I just bought a regular Midea window unit with a heat pump for $350. It's an 8,000 btu A/C, with 7,000 btu heat @ 120V. You can also get it in 12,000 BTU. I think someone is trying to sell a bill of goods here.
The bracket that accepts the heat pump during install has gas struts that are installed upside down 🙃 the shaft should point down and the gas strut body on top so that the oil in the strut soaks the seal while in the long term compressed orientation. Look at any gas strut on your car to confirm.
Seals are mostly rubber, so it won't matter, rubebr doesn't get soaked. Also; to refer to your car analogy; take a look at motorcycles, most modern ones have usd (up side down) forks, but those didn't come around until the early 90's/late 80's, and most old motorcycle forks from before then still work fine without any repairs. P.s. it's also covered from the sun, so the rubber won't degrade as quickly
They might be upside down but the aren’t even vital to the function of the unit and it’s just a render of what it might look like. Every chance they don’t even contain struts when the actual unit is delivered.
not really. arizona is dry. you need far less "cooling" than a new yorker needs. Most of the energy for cool is not actually going to cooling. its going to dehumidification. it actually does not take much energy to "cool" air. most of it goes to water removal. you already have air with no water in it. so you only need to cool it. these should work just fine in arizona. I live high altitude in new mexico (6800ft) it cost almost nothing to cool my home. it just does not take that much energy when the air is this dry. Heating is another issue though. double edge sword of high altitude. we see 10 below 0 here at times (though very rarely)
I love how everyone is so excited about this new heat pump technology. I remember working on 30 year old heat pumps over 30 years ago. It's not new technology.
lol yeah, theoretically. I think the problem is the regular units won't be able to draw enough heat out of the winter air. minsplit units can, probably because of more efficient design and different refrigerant.
A heat pump is just an air conditioner running backwards, so there is no reason for one to be much more expensive than the other. Indeed, most $150 AC units can both heat and cool as far as I know.
@@thorvaldspear almost NONE can. in fact I am only aware of a single unit that can and its only good down to 41'f and is $379. otherwise "NO" window units I am aware of work as heat pumps. many have HEAT but its "NOT" a heat pump. its a resistance heater built into the unit meaning zero efficiency difference than plugging in a space heater.
Because it needs a reservoir of heat to pump. Not much hear outside in the winter. Thays why they usually use a large tube undergroind to pull heat from. In my xp they arent dit for purpose.
@@mael1515 ah, i guess convincing the landlord would be out of the question? lol. some places have subsidies/rebates so might still be a good long-term investment for them. I suppose it's a growing problem now in Europe since AC wasn't really a requirement before climate change made things a bit off kilter.
@@snowballeffect7812 my landlord is actually pretty amazing, but the central gas burner is only a few years old, so replacing it is something that I don't even have to ask for.
For our condo we had a quote of $10k to update our old 2Ton AC system because it was starting to fail. They would have to change the roof condenser as well as the furnace for the newer Freon gas. Instead we just got a Media window AC system from Costco for $300 which was 12,000 BTU. Two of them can cool our whole condo and would be so much quieter then the loud blower fan. Each unit draws about 300-400 watts vs my central air that will pull 2000-2200 watts. So two of them only cost $600 and can get the same BTU of 2400! I also love that I can only cool a portion of my condo rather then the whole unit. For winter our building provides floor radiating heat so we didn't need to worry about a 2 way heat pump. I feel like this was a win win!
It's quality, though. A good system would cost less to run and be more even. You're comparing your very old system cost to a new window unit that's more efficient. A new roof unit would perform waaay better than those new window units. Problem is the sales of new units usually push the cheapest unit thwy always install than a variable unit for a grand or two more which is way more efficient.
Friedrich Kuhl 10,000 BTU Window Air Conditioner w/ Heat Pump Model: KHS10A10A List price $1,769. While not the fancy saddle style that's a lot lower cost. Or how about the Amana AH123G35AX 11,600 BTU window mount heat pump for a cool $1099? For the mini split types there are ceiling cassettes to use instead of the wall hung units. The outside units could be mounted on the building roof then the wires and pipes run down to the apartments. Then there's the Tech Ingredients guy who posted a video a few days ago on using an air conditioner for heating.
I live in Toronto. Many landlords now insist that tenants use floor model portable a/c units as nothing can hang out the windows. This is because of liability if the units fall out of the window. Later this year, the city will pass a law banning any type of unit that hangs out windows. A window heat pump is awesome tech but probably won't be permitted in Toronto.
Why didn't we do this earlier? I had a window heat pump in the early 80s. I can't believe the world stopped making these and only just now rediscovered the idea. More likely, Matt just found out about them and thinks he discovered something new.
@@Vile_Entity_3545 Not applicaple for most european windows. (Except UK and around) Windows need to be of the "sliding" type. Windows around here open by rotating the windows around the vertical axis. You would need to redesign the entire window or put a slit below the window into the wall.
There is one major design flaw with this. The fact that the outdoor section hinges for installation and removal. This means that the unit is not hermetically sealed. a portion of the refrigerant lines have to be rubber to allow for this, just like in automotive applications. Estimates with modern vehicles are in the 7-10% refrigerant loss each year because of the semi permeable nature of the rubber tubing that couples the compressor to the rest of the system so the egine can move on the engine mounts. I guarantee that at this point these units are not meant to be recharged every few years, which means their fancy efficiency rating is going to drop quick.
@michaelbuckers while you're right, that may be possible, copper isn't cheap so it's very doubtful that's the route they took. I watched the part of the video again where they show the internals being assembled, but you can't see the top where this would be, so you can't tell from the video.
At $2-3k per unit, I think they’re probably using all copper inside. Maybe they will be using rubber if the price is that of a window A/C unit ($150.00). But they can’t justify $2-3k pricing and skimp on the internals.
Some of this type of unit use a coolant rather than refrigerant to bring the heat inside (or outside). This requires a few more parts (which could explain some of the price) but keeping all the refrigerant outside has some huge benefits. In addition to easy flex joints it lets them safely use more dangerous refrigerants which are often more efficient.
I live out here in Southern AZ where it can reach 100-115F. I looked into these types of units, but decided on a more permanent system like a 3 zone Mitsubishi unit. Now I can keep my bedrooms cooler at night without having to run my 5 ton central HVAC system. I am seeing more and more of this mini split systems in areas like Boston and New Hampshire in my Fall travels. time after time, Mitsubishi and Daikin win out against the cheaper Chinese knockoff units. Sadly, many of these older buildings don't have good insulation. We're seeing more and more people insulate older homes with denim based insulation or Rockwool. That extra investment helps save on electrical consumption throughout the year.
Thanks Matt for this episode , I have been looking at solutions for my garage and didn`t want to drill through the walls and also have a lack of space outside for a unit . these window units look perfect for my application , they are still pricey and may be my only option, I live just outside of Boston .
Heat pumps are great for those of us who don't like "toasty" heat in the cold winter. If you don't mind air blowing on you that feels cool, but eventually warms up a room, this my friend, is for you!
If yours offers better heat output at the same outside temperatures it probably has greater electrical requirements. If you need a 240v outlet or a dedicated circuit it's not a fair comparison. Having said all that, $3000 is unreasonably expensive. $1500 is more reasonable and still double what a similar performing mini-split costs.
What a great idea! Even the installation looks better than a window AC. The cost, however, needs to come down since most of the components are the same as a window AC. New tech development costs are built into the initial units. Think of hard drives, lap-tops, laser printers/copiers, etc. 😊
I upgraded my window mount AC unit last summer to a cheaper window mount heat-pump unit in my house in MA. The units I got still have the same old window-filling form factor, and have a significantly higher low-temp cutoff for some reason... (advertised 40F). Even in New England though, this was able to supplement my late fall and early spring heating needs enough to significantly reduce my gas bill. I only needed the primary gas furnace full time between Nov~Feb this past season.
I use the inverted version of the U-shape. I live in the humid SE where there is considerable condensate. Water flows downhill. With the upright U shape, the condensate will flow across the window sill and drips outside. I've read where Midea users complain that it drips condensate on the floor. With the upright U-shape, the window slides down into the U.
As soon as i heard "eligible for funding under the inflation reduction act" i knew theyd cost 10x what any other window AC unit would, that acts names always gets a chuckle
A regional home improvement chain sent me an ad containing Mr. Cool brand DIY mini-split heat pumps from 12k - 36k btu. only the 12k unit runs on "120"v. and the biggest using 22 @. My conventional 4 ton AC uses 31@ at "220"v upon startup. I'm still watching the industry for when I have the cash and other upgrades made to this 1912 vintage 2.5 story house. {Since the HVAC system was recently replaced, I have about a decade to work with.}
I have a Friedrich 120V window heat pump. In fact before this Gradient came out, Friedrich’s was the only 120V window heat pump on the market. (I believe Amana makes a 240V window heat pump.) Including installation it cost me about $1500 and it was well worth it! Unlike most heat pumps, Friedrich’s model also has an exhaust fan to remove smoke or odors and an intake fan to let in fresh air or cold air when the temperature outside is under 60 degrees. That’s why these Gradient and Midea models cost more, they can work in much colder temperatures
Many renters agreements forbid window ac units. These don't sit in the window, but don't be surprised if the property manager doesn't understand the difference.
It didn’t strike me how much building design influences heating and cooling until after I lived in a bunch of different places. When I lived in Montreal lots of the walk ups had front and back access. So you could create a cross breeze. But also living in some apartment buildings that were only on one side of the building it was very stagnant. Now I live in an old Vancouver home with the ability to do a cross breeze and haven’t needed an AC.
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I don't understand I have a Midea heat pump window unit I got it at Costco on sale for $275 as energy star rating what's 18 k air conditioner heat pump with seer rating 15 3,000 seems a little steep
@kurtzxcvb3481 the energy star rating is not what you're paying for. You are paying for the heat pump, which is not only A/C but also a Heater and a super efficient one at that.
For an individual renter in a building with centralized heating, this doesn't make sense at all. If your heat pump has no connection to the central heating system, the temp in your spaces is still still going to be at the mercy of the main heat source. At best, this would allow you to warm a room that's always too cold in the winter. And for the price of two or three of these units I could add a mini-split to my house, get better results, and not have something hanging off my windows.
While this is an option for vertically hung windows, they probably aren't compatible with sliding, casement or awning style windows, which will reduce viable applications in newer units.
For 2 to 3k? No. I live in Florida so heat is of very little concern, and what little it is I have computers that heat rooms up just fine. Not worth it till they com down in price by a lot.
Those prices are ridiculous. 90% of a heat pump is a traditional air conditioner, with a reversing valve added. I bought a 12K BTU Midea window air conditioner last year for $499 - similar saddle design - and it is efficient as hell. No way converting that to a heat pump justifies a 600% increase in cost/price. These companies smell government subsidies and are inflating their prices accordingly. I call bull$#!t. Same damned problem in solar. Kill the taxpayer-funded rebates/incentives and watch prices plummet accordingly.
1000% agree.
All you need is a Tx valve one side connects like normal the other sends the gas in reverse. One valve and two ft of copper tube.
@@shawnstillman736Not exactly right. Heat pumps also have automatic deicing firmware, and temperature sensors to accommodate that. Still traditional heat pumps are only about double the price of a similar sized window unit. The 3k price is an obvious scam.
Gotta love Socialism.
these corporations have agents in the US gov.
I don't understand why these would be so much more expensive. $3000 for an AC that can run in reverse? Isn't it just a couple extra valves and a tad more electronics? I could see $1000; but, 3x that amount feels like it's priced high just to eat federal subsidies.
We need more companies making these units to get price competition.
I agree. I put a 24k btu mini split in my shop and it was under $2k so this seems way high.
It is, the markup for installation is ridiculous. I am very handy and installed a universal for 4 grand including all the ductwork and it works wonderfully and is code compliant..
What's even crazier is that Midea already sells a window unit heat pump, 8000 BTU (MAW08HV1CWT) for $380 and 12000 (MAW12HV1CWT) BTU for $500 on amazon. It doesn't make any sense for them to introduce a $3k unit. Whole house 2-3 ton central systems sell for $3k. Anyone with sales or marketing experience could tell you a window unit at that price point is going to be a failure. At this point Matt is just a shill for these companies. He's knowingly pumping products that don't make any financial sense or he lacks any financial sense and thinks these are good ideas.
@@SnappyWasHerewhat brand did you go with? DIY?
As a guy who installs and uninstalls about 20 window ACs per year, I like how these effortlessly float themselves into place during installation. Easy on the back is nice.
Cast radiators are usually installed right under or next to exterior windows in old homes/apartments. Wonder how large of a problem they will be with this design.
How many have you had to repair?
I was drooling for this un until you mentioned the price.. then I was like "what?!" I already have the Midea-U 12,000 BTU and I think I paid $496 on Amazon. Adding the reversing valve and a few other components should not make the unit cost $3,000. That's insane. I'd probably buy one or two of them if the cost were under $600 a piece.
Yeah, the cost is a tough pill to swallow, but I’ve talked to a few people since the video came out and it’s more complex than just adding a reversing valve. There’s a bunch of things in the design that require more complex engineering and parts. It’s also a low number manufacturing run being a new product, which jacks costs up too. I would hope that if this catches on we’ll see a price drop with larger volumes.
@@UndecidedMF Then you need to talk to some different people. It's not complex at all.
@@JustSomeGuy009 you are correct I actually have a 120VAC mini split air conditioner and heater with such reversing valve at home and the cost was $700 USD about 3 years ago.
@@UndecidedMF it's more likely the economics of scale as well as the manufacturer wanting all his investment back. This is a niche application and so the economics of trying to recover all the original r&d may force the higher price. The manufacturer also figures front load the ROI and price it to $3000 to get return up front/sooner.
@@JustSomeGuy009 The concept is simple, getting it right is not. It's not just reversing the flow. HX sizing, pipe sizing, keeping the compressor oil in the compressor and not circulating with the refrigerant, are just a couple of the things that become more difficult when you can no longer assume that the refrigerant flows in one direction.
This unit is also designed to work in heating mode down to a much lower temperature than your typical HVAC unit, and probably operates at pressures that are inconvenient for use in a small household unit (there's a reason that R-12 originally won and these newer refrigerants are just showing up in this application in the last couple years), that drives higher costs as well.
In Europe, in buildings with central heating, we install special radiator valves that stop the water flow when a specific temperature is reached, and each tenant pays only for what they use.
Heat pumps are definitely better, but the problem of some apartments being too hot was solved a couple of decades ago.
The other thing about steam in dense city environments is that it often comes "for free" (at least from an energy usage standpoint). The steam is often sourced from nearby power generators, were water was boiled to make steam to turn a turbine. They could just let that steam out into the atmosphere, or they could make use of it in places that need heat. So, it's piped into nearby buildings, and used to drive the heating systems.
That's because in Europe they have standards
Also those heat pumps wouldn't work in Europe, because the windows have a different design.
I don't know what you talk about. During heatwaves in Europe there is nothing you can do without an AC. I would like to get an AC, but all I got is a cylindrical hole in the wall of my rented apartment.
Yeah I did that in my house and it works really well with controlling the temperature per room, but it does take a little time to set up and each room being different needs being setup individually to get the right temperature you want.
Once you have it setup, it works like a dream, each one switches on or off depending on the setting you have and the temperature you want, the advantage is, you end up using less energy whiles feeling more comfortable in a room because the temperature stays at a given level so not to let it get too cold or too hot, and you can do this individually on a per-room basis.
For instance, one room in the house, the heating rarely comes on and usually in winter for a short time because the room doesn't get too cold, whereas the bathroom needs more heating so it comes on more aggressively, once it's set for each room, you don't have to do anything and the heating comes on and off automatically per room as needed, which in my case, is not very much because we insulated the house about 3 years ago and it doesn't really get that cold in winter that heating is rarely needed, this is in the UK by the way.
With that said, the same system could be much cheaper with a heat pump, but considering how little heating we use, it's not worth getting a heat pump at the current price.
12:53 trust me, in Tokyo heatpumps are the standard already, nearly all apartments come with at least 1, they are renter friendly as apartments are designed with slots for them to add them if they were not included. and the typical mini split heat pump is around $500
my apartment has 2, one for each room
This.
$3k USD for these units is insane when, as you said, a mini split is less expensive.
I believe you can get a 4 room mini split for around $3-5k before rebates and if esthetics of the building are important, I'd rather see a few ground base heat pumps (which you can easily hide) vs multiple units hanging off the front of the building.
My other thought is AC units at around $300 have thermostats so they're better than the $150 units which just cycle the pump when cooling is needed. AKA they run constantly. While they have the benefit of also efficiently heating, as Matt said, most renters have heating baked into their rental agreements.
$1500-2k before rebates. Still more expensive than a 2 room mini however, the convenience and ability to pretty much place it anywhere you have an outlet, justifies the cost. But not $3k lol
@@shawnduffy279 This is what happens when factories for the AC-as-a-brick have been set up and paid for by private entities, then refuse to adapt to new available technologies without their "friends" in government bribing them to ship in that new tech.
This is the kind of BS that the first hippies responded to with "never trust anyone over 40".
Yes, my Tokyo apartment had 1 in the bedroom and a larger unit in the living room. Quiet, efficient and not so expensive. Not to mention almost every apartment in Japan has a washing machine...
Can you provide a source for oyur claim that the heat pumps are actually doing heating? From everything i can find the majority of the acs in japan have resistant heating included, but not actually heat pump heating anywhere below 10 degrees C.
Which would also explain some of the price disparity, as it requires different and more expensive tech and coolants for near or subzero heat pumping.
@@reappermen It's in the video.
Sounds lovely, but not at 3K.
Maybe for $600 at the most like damn
You are paying the "American's think heat pumps are magic new futuristic technology" tax. In Australia something like this is readily available for about $320 USD and has been readily available for over 50 years. I hear of people in North America and Europe getting heat pump air conditioners installed and paying $10k $20k $30k $40k USD and am completely astounded, your installers are absolutely taking the piss. I installed a whole-of-house ducted air conditioner in my house AND 3 mini splits (26kW or 90,000 BTU) all for just over $10,000 USD.
Midea already manufactures and sells two models at 8000 and 12000 BTU for $350 and $500 respectively, there is no way a 20,000 BTU unit should cost over $1000.
This price is only so high because the government bid request said "no more than $3000"
@@lordhosk So you know damn well the company is going to collect ever dime. Probably some insider trade or deal going on.
That price is patently ridiculous. It shouldn't cost 10x more just to have a heat pump be bi-directional lol.
In the winter time when it's -10F, that outside evaporator is going to be probably close to -30F and it's going to be collecting condensation (ice) and you'll need resistive heat to melt that off. Then because it's an inverse U shape, in the summertime, you're going to need to pump the condensation up the front and back to the condenser. Then you have the humidifier setting when in heat mode. And all of these needs to operate at 1500 watts or less.
All of these extra solutions need more parts which adds more complexity and requires more sensors and software to control them. Then all of it needs to be tested to withstand the elements. A heat pump is not just an AC that runs in reverse, I wish these youtubers would stop that meme. An AC with just a reversing valve would be a pretty shitty heat pump that would not work in many conditions.
For $500-$800 you can get a typical air source heat pump (ASHP) and it will probably have more power than these.
Absolutely, and “tax breaks” are disgusting. They don’t fix the problem, they just pass it on to someone else.
or you know, just flip your window ac backward during winter. all ac are heat pump by default.
@@keenheat3335 that won't necessarily work depending on the efficiency rating and refrigerant used. also most cheap ACs are designed to tilt back a little so condensation drips out the back.
It took 4 years for me to pay off the cost of the Heat pump system for my home. It has lowered my electric costs by an average of $120/month, and I still have 6 years of my 100% parts and labor warranty left.
I know it's a large upfront cost, but wow those things are great. Glad to see that they are expanding these to more situations. For reference my electric costs $0.12/KWH.
Could've just bought an intel CPU and connected some tubes as outlets to different rooms. A lot cheaper.
@@sodanakin I appreciate the joke, but no.
Because of how heat pumps work it is 3X cheaper to run and I still have cooling.
The idea is using waste heat is definitely a fun topic though.
For that to be relevant to this unit your furnace cost would have to have been 6 times higher than a standard install which it wasn't. It's just a few thousand more on what is a 30k system instead of a 27k system for a typical home. Now run that payback if the HVAC install on your home was $150-180,000.
That's the numbers on this unit and it's about half the efficiency spread of what yours is compared to a standard install.
I hope this didn't come across as critical but a lot of people he that are pros want people to know to not buy this unit.
I'm a builder so I've been running the number on efficiency for decades in real world builds.
Heat pumps at the entry level still aren't worth the money on the lifecycle of the unit. They're very very close.
Scale matters so on a 10,000sf home get them.
FYI the best return on products is LED lighting on any exterior timed lighting. Paying someone $150 an hour to change the bulbs has a payback in 3 to 9 months depending on electric rate.
Us normal construction workers know more about actual efficiency that anyone making products.
The geothermal heat pumps are the worst because so many units are crap. People that work with them know that only Bosch units should be installed. Period.
If you get one serviced ask them to replace the guts with a Bosch no matter what brand you have when they start acting up.
Every $600 service call knocks that payback date back a year and most units need one every year after a few years. Like after 3 to 5 years it becomes an annual problem.
This looked so much like an add. No questions about the efficiency loss of the insulation of the window by that presence of the AC unit. Only a price comparison against non-reversible AC unit. That being said the comparison against replacing the building heat source by a more efficient one was welcome.
Thats all this guy does is hype up crap that never goes anywhwrw
The profile is so small that the window is only cracked open a few inches. I'm sure the unit kit comes with insulation that you can put in to fill any gaps, which is better than just the glass window.
@@jhoughjr1not true. A lot of what he talks about is what people that build things have known about for a decade before it hits RUclips.
A windows is the worst part of a building. Putting a strip of insulation around the gaps caused by installing these makes the window it's installed in MORE efficient than the other windows.
@@sparksmcgee6641 lol nothing he has ever covered changed anything.
Ive had a heat pump and we froze all the time.
In SW MO.
$3000 is crazy, the 12,000 BTU Midea U-Shaped is only $500. You are telling me it costs $2500 to add heat?
I have this model, and I love it. It's so quiet. But yeah, I'd never pay three grand for a portable unit like that. Of course, I have also never lived in an area that snows, so I don't know how much I would value my heat at. We just have deathly hot weather and comfortable temps in the winter.
I have a 12000 BTU Midea that has a heat pump in it. Maybe $600 a couple of years ago. It won't heat below 40°F but okay.
I just installed one of those Midea U-Shaped ACs. About $450.00 delivered. At over 6X that price, this is just price gouging. Probably because NYC is paying for it.
- This is just window-mounted AC with 3-way valve added.
- Don't you see a fancy indentation in the middle?
save yourself 2.5 grand and just turn the unit around in the winter
Wait...$3K?!? A 12K BTU minisplit WITH installation is $1500 in Arizona, and it is 20 SHEER. If I were a landlord, I would put a whole bunch of them on the roof where I can centralize the electricity and connections and just run lines down the outside of the building to each apartment, which...is what they do here in three and four storied buildings. I see the potential, and the utility of these units, but...$3K?!?
yeah but landlords love to minimize costs and do as little as possible lol
Lol 1,500. Cracklist prices…
It's a scam for that price. A traditional window AC unit is already a "heat pump" pumping heat from indoors outside. All it takes is one little valve to let it run in the opposite direction to be what's commonly called a heat pump and now it's some magical overpriced device for thousands of dollars. There should be options all the way down to $200. It's not special.
1500 in arizona seems like some meth head doing it. Any legit person here in Missouri wants 3k for a mini split install. I did a lot of my own stuff and only had a tech come do the pipe connection and vaccuuming the lines, and it ran me about 1500 just for that.
Traditional style window AC units are available in reverse cycle (heat pump) form and some also allow a little transfer of fresh and stale air between indoors and outdoors so are MUCH healthier and oh yes cheaper
If they want to be realistic about being "environmentally friendly" with these, then someone is going to need to design one from the ground up that has serviceability in mind. Even the best compressors have a finite lifespan. Replacing several hundred boiler and chiller systems that are designed to be serviceable vs tens of thousands of units that are more or less disposable is not "environmentally friendly" when looking at the big picture.
So a compressor lasts on average ten years. Not exactly disposable, but not a legacy system either. Seems a better compressor is all that's needed, not a ground up reengineering.
@thecocktailian2091 I don't disagree with you, but that 10 year figure you mention is because home appliance type things are intentionally designed to last 10 years, we probably have the capability already to make them last much longer, but we won't... because money... and throwing away 1, 20 ton chiller compressor every 10 years is not the same as throwing away hundreds of 9,000 btu compressors every 10 years.
You would be surprised just how much energy a lot of these systems save in 5-10 years, even if they're disposable they could still come out way ahead if they last 10 years. I agree that they *should* be serviceable though, and be built to last longer than 10 years, aiming for merely "less bad" isn't exactly a noble goal
Come on man, don't replace the brakes on that "clunker" get a whole new car! We already established new everything is better for the environment like 20 years ago.
@@thecocktailian2091 or just make them REPAIR FRIENDLY.
I live in Europe and have an apartment with individual gas heating and radiotors. I recently installed a dual inverter split unit airconditioner (basically an air to air heat pump) and although it does heat well until about -7 degrees C but in those kind of temperatures it stops frequently to de-ice which defeats the object, a problem most heat pumps have. Also a single heat pump room unit only serves one room thus you may need more of them and it will often be difficult to heat the bathroom when it is enclosed. With dual inverter airconditioners one can have multiple indoor units on one external unit. So in my apartment I still need my gas boiler in winter although the airconditioner did save me some money by minimizing the time I use the boiler and as I had it installed for €2200 it was not as expensive as the room units you propose. So yes I think there will be good use cases for the window units but one would have to consider carefully where it makes sense certainly at a cost of €3000 per unit. Further as someone else already mentioned, most apartments in Europe have a different window lay-out so these would not fit there.
Several years ago I picked up a Midea U-shaped window air conditioner and was Very impressed with it's efficiency and its practical design. I spent a career designing air conditioners and wish I had thought up this clever form factor myself.
from what i understand, it's actually an old design from decades past
Nice of you to be concerned with us, but every home in Tokyo has a heat pump - I have two. The wall mountings, electrical supply, ducts, and supports for the external unit are standardized and built into every house and apartment.
The situation in Tokyo is a bit different than here in the US. Many of the buildings in the US are older stock, and there is much more demand here for older homes with 'character'. The notion of a home with character is not very common in the urban areas of Japan. An older home in Japan is more likely to be considered cause for either a complete demo and rebuild, or at least a gut and remodel. Those details make the standardization needed much more likely there.
Well when you tear down and rebuilt homes every ~20 years, it's a lot easier to keep up with technology. I'm in a house that's over 70 years old.
Installing a heat pump takes a couple of hours and can be installed in any kind of house. The age of your house is irrelevant.
Can you link some photos or videos of the standardized ducts and electrical supply?
@@Loreroth The discussion here was more about apartments, though, which complicates installation significantly. Many buildings don't allow installation of anything on the facade, which rules out a split system unless the building isn't too tall to have the outside units on the roof. Once above a certain building height, the refrigerant runs become impractical, plus of course you're going to run out of roof space.
That's cool. Now make them available for people who's windows open sideways, like mine. Oh, and while we're at it write laws that shift more of the burden for saving the environment off the backs of the average consumer and on large corporations maybe.
Until they change the form factor, many renters can't use them. Anyone with a bare coil radiator right under the window (very common in NYC) can't have anything hanging below the window on the inside of the apartment.
Also many older units in NYC have abnormally wide windows (40-44" compared to the average of 32-36" that window units are designed for) due to being old enough that wider windows for more airflow was the cooling solution, and most current ACs simply will not fit without custom work, so the heatpumps may similarly not actually be self-installable.
Additionally, why are these so expensive? Heat pumps are just a few more valves than ACs. I could see $1000 for the fancy form factor, but when the average AC in the 8000BTU range is $350, $3000 if a ludicrous markup.
Extra wide is fine tho you can put insulation or even put two of these units to fill the gap. The advantage these have is they make a smaller opening to fill with insulation than your average window unit
I lived in NYC apartments for over 40 years. Yes, some windows have radiators in front of them, but most do not. Not everything will work everywhere. Extra wide windows aren't a problem. There are many ways to fill the gap.
I believe they make reverse U versions that can be used in this situation, However it will block much of the window.
The 350$ AC you are referring to literally has zero efficiency as you need to cool the evaporator by dumping cold air from the inside to the outside using an air hose. Effectively creating a (tiny) vacuum inside which draws in warm / humid air from all other rooms / outside. Effectively heating up your room even more due to heat radiation from the hose / casing of such ACs. These things are only good for cooling if you sit in front of the airstream. They are cheap because they are very very inefficient.
The new ACs seen in this video solve this issue as there is no breach of isolation between inside and outside. Additionally you are re-circulating the already cooled air inside and cool it even more which has a cooling curve similar to an exponential decay.
The government makes a problem, and the private section has to find a fix, making everything more expensive. Thank you, government, for being the biggest waste of money known to man.
This is a great idea, and would be much quieter than traditional AC window units. Though I rarely see buildings where the window opens vertically anymore, they all seem to open horizontally now, it was a lot of work to install a traditional AC unit in my house, with the horizontally opening window.
Most windows I come across are like this too opening side to side instead of up and down. Yet there is almost nothing made to work with this style of window.
Where are you living where that's the norm where I live the only horizontal window I've ever seen is my parents sliding glass back door
I live in Canada eh!
The point on "common denominator" heating is a little miss leading. Some of these water pump systems have thermostatic valves in each room so the water just doesn't circulate in the rooms that are already at temperature. I'm sure this is not all but I would hope most of these style of heating system have something similar in them. They could probably be retrofitted as all.
Midea already sells a window unit heat pump, 8000 BTU (MAW08HV1CWT) for $380 and 12000 (MAW12HV1CWT) BTU for $500 on amazon. It doesn't make any sense for them to introduce a $3000 unit. Anyone with sales or marketing experience could tell you that price point is going to be a failure.
Those claim not to heat below 41F outside air temperature. My guess is that limitation comes from a combination of a different refrigerant and the lack of a defrost system.
@@nathanschley2088 That still doesn't explain the 8x to 10x pricepoint lol.
The 350$ AC you are referring to literally has zero efficiency as you need to cool the evaporator by dumping cold air from the inside to the outside using an air hose. Effectively creating a (tiny) vacuum inside which draws in warm / humid air from all other rooms / outside. Effectively heating up your room even more due to heat radiation from the hose / casing of such ACs. These things are only good for cooling if you sit in front of the airstream. They are cheap because they are very very inefficient.
The new ACs seen in this video solve this issue as there is no breach of isolation between inside and outside. Additionally you are re-circulating the already cooled air inside and cool it even more which has a cooling curve similar to an exponential decay.
It's the Apple of heat pumps. Just convince enough people to ignore other options and they'll make money.
I don’t think this is mini split technology
I do like how this channel doesn't not hide big important questions or issues with a system they are discussing. Being open about renters having to pick up the cost with the window units and landlords may wanting to do this is very honest and it's refreshing to see! Thank you sir and keep making great content. 😊
@@minihunt4093 The only thing missing is the fact that landlords will not lower rents even though their costs will go down, so renters will be paying for heating twice, essentially.
These sort of models mostly work for the weird slide-up windows that Americans use, any house with hinged windows are gonna have a much harder time fitting them so I need too see some more options
There are some that only require You to Drill at twelve centimeter hole
You also have to have nothing below the window, my road in the UK has all slide-up (sash) windows but also a small roof just below the window that would prevent you installing this design.
It’s called a mini split unit
They are called double-hung windows. And they are pretty neat IMO. You can slide up or you can push the outside screen to the top and slide them down instead. Having the window cracked at the top is nice if you have shades that can open just at the top, if you want a window to let warmer air out while a window fan blows in from another window, or you don't want a toddler putting their fingers in the dirty sill.
Yeah, double hung windows are pretty neat, and they also don't require any space inside or outside the window plane for opening which can be quite helpful. They're only common in certain pockets though; more of the homes I've lived in (both apartments & houses) have had casement windows than double hung.
I haven’t determined whether $3k is a reasonable price for performance, but in combination with existing solar + battery, these seem like an excellent long-term solution for cutting heating fuel and grid electricity costs. I look forward to battery improvements and all-around efficiency gains that can eliminate the need to pay for energy entirely. To that end, these window units are a positive step along the way.
Wow, these things are pretty neat. I lived in Hoboken, Jersey City, Manhattan and Brooklyn so I know the pain as well. I would have loved to have one of these units when I lived in the area.
In NYC, even though I had permanently installed passthrough AC units my electric bill would be around $300-$350 in July and August (I also ran a home media server, but most of my energy expenditure went into keeping my apartment comfortable since I WFH). Due to poor insulation it would still be very humid inside (60%+ ) even though it was in the low 70s. We'd frequently get mass text messages from the electric company during heat waves to tell us to limit our AC and general electricity usage because we risk causing a blackout! They seem to be more efficient than window ACs, but the problem also is that the insulation and energy efficiency of the buildings themselves suck.
I moved to Miami about 9 months ago and live in a building that is maybe 20-30 years old now and has central air/heat that I control. The worst its gotten in here was 67% humidity and 76F and that was when I came back yesterday after not having the HVAC system on for 5 days, while having my server running. I generally keep it around 72-74F and it stays around 55% humidity in here. Even with the server running and me being home all the time, it costs me about $100/month.
I've wanted something like this since I got one of Midea's U shaped ACs. Just flip it upside down, duh.
Now we just need one for windows that open/close sideways. A C shaped one.
I bought two for my house and after a year one stopped cooling very well and the other one was making an annoying noise. So, year three on my house I ended up installing an air source heat pump, because my furnace needed replaced. In the second year I tried to get my units serviced, but the product was out of warranty, and there was no one in my city that serviced Midea. They are quieter than a normal AC and when they work they are great. When compared to a standard old-fashioned window AC these units are more fragile. Unless the heat pump version had a great warranty, I would be leery of these upcoming products. There might be more value in repairing them and you would also not be taking them in and out in the same fashion as an AC. Another consideration is can these be installed where you have a roof outside the window. We had to install the brace upside down on one unit to get it to rest at a slight angle for water to properly drain, the upright U worked in this case, but I am not sure the upside down one would work in my upstairs windows with the porch roof so near the window.
@@Sleepingvampires What noise were you dealing with? My Midea 8K BTU unit is around three years old, and it has always had a bit of a rattling problem that crops up ever so often. When it does rattle, I've noticed that simply pushing up on the bottom of the inside portion of the unit stops the rattling noise. Fortunately, since I started using extra window locks to push down the window onto the unit (the unit doesn't perfectly fit into my window), I rarely have issues with the rattling. Although, it does have a habit of getting louder (fan noise) when it's nearly done cooling. I use it in a computer room due to having two computers in there that can generate plenty of heat.
Casement window AC units work in windows that open sideways.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Yeah but they're not maximum efficiency heat pumps and don't allow you to almost entirely close the window. They're just a **tad** narrower than normal window a/c units. You still have to fill a decent gap and your window is now effectively much smaller.
My condo HOA may still say no because they don't want stuff hanging out above garages (window a/c's are currently banned), but I would absolutely pay around 2k for a casement window heat pump that allowed the window to shut 95% (if it was allowed). Our bedrooms with casement windows are the only rooms that get hot. The rest of the condo which has hung windows doesn't even need cooling most of the time and it's half a floor downstairs from the bedrooms so the cool air wouldn't get up to the hot rooms if I put a unit there. So instead I have an annoyingly space inefficient portable inverter a/c, plus various fans upstairs.
We have a condo unit to our left, right, and above, so no easy option to externally mount a classic heat pump mini split either.
Yeh so we can use them in Europe. Our windows don't slide open, they swivel open.
If nothing else, the design is a significant improvement on AC window units.
You can get equivalent design AC only units for a fraction of that price.
For $3,000 it should come with a custom airbrushed design and also do my laundry. There is no reason it should be more than $500, they are milking free (taxpayer) government handouts.
Is it? This thing has to be constantly blowing air at leg height or child height. How is that comfortable or even tolerable? What about the noise level if this thing is going to be near a bed?
no it is not, nothing new in this design.
@@hrvojelasic5794These are the first ever units which combine the ease of a window mounted reverse cycle air conditioner with a split system reverse cycle air conditioner. They simply take a 1980s window mounted reverse air con unit and split it into two sections (like a split system reverse cycle air conditioner of the 1990s) but putting the compressor outside and the fan unit inside, making them quieter inside the house. That is, by definition, a revolutionary design.
Midea makes a large fraction of our dehumidifiers in the US. They're manufactured in China, under more than 50 different brand names. They typically fail soon after warranty expiration, in a way that makes them unfixable. Landfills throughout the US are overflowing with beautiful new-looking Midea-made appliances.
Any reference for this information?
@@freecycling6687 Its not hard to figure out. Most small appliances are made by them under different names. Especially store owned brands. And they are subpar quality.
I stayed at a B&B in PEI that had these in their rooms. Don't know about the price but they were very quiet and efficient. Much better than the units in hotel rooms.
I would love one of these. My home has a central heat pump, but one half of the house has missing, damaged, or absent insulation, and the heat pump gets overwhelmed. I have two major road blocks to getting one: It gets over 113*F here in the summer, and all of my windows are horizontal, instead of vertical, opening. Pretty sure it would make sense for me to get one of these and a simple Solar set up, and be able to run it off the grid for 90% of the time I would need it.
My first thought is a heat pump that can't cool at 96F is basically a nonstarter....Just when you need it most it doesn't work. I also think their price premium for mobility is just too high. $3k for a transportable unit? You can get a Mr. Cool 9k BTU mini-split (20 SEER) for about a third of that price ($1250). Again, I get there's value in portability and minisplits have installation costs but IMHO that doesn't justify 3x value. All the high-rises in Asia have minisplit heat pump compressors built in on the outside so I don't see that market driving the desire/demand for window units. The buildings are too tall and the windows can't be opened.
Somebody else said it, but I'll repeat it. I don't see how AC systems double in price when they have heat pump reverse flow capability. I imagine if AC was outlawed and Heat Pumps were the only option they'd come down in price due to competition. IHMO....they still seemed to be priced as a subsidized novelty in the USA rather than a commodity product like in Asia.
I believe that range is just to maintain the stated efficiency rating, not that it won't work. Plus in context it makes sense, NY doesn't have a climate that gets above that point often if at all.
hell I have a 12,000 btu mexico whirlpool mini split it was $900 "INSTALLED"
Largwr ones cant heat in freezing weather without a standard heater.
This guy always ahowcases bs tech
@jhoughjr1 my larger unit heats just fine in freezing weather I've been as far as 40° below freezing and it still worked although once you get below 10° f it becomes less efficient but it still heats and there's no auxiliary heater
It's no different than an ac who told you it doesn't
I don't love that the COP for gas furnaces was listed as 1 or less. Technically true but it really ignores the electricity production carbon footprint issue. In my area the effective COP of a high efficiency gas furnace is above 2.4 due to most of the electricity being created by natural gas. In that case it's just more efficient from a carbon standpoint to burn natural gas as a heat source then to burn it to create electricity which is then used to move heat in a heat pump.
Or you could just demand clean electricity. 🤷♂️
Not Exactly. Natural gas power plants run around 40-60% efficiency. Transmission loss over the grid is around 5%. Some heat pumps get as high as 500% efficiency (closer to 250% in sub zero temperature) So .5 * .95 * (2.5:5) = 1.188 : 2.375. So most heat pumps are far more efficient than just burning natural gas in your home. This is why heat pumps are almost always better unless you are consistently seeing sub zero temperatures, like in Alaska or North Dakota.
@@serversurfer6169why don’t you?
@@MrMadsci7 I do. Please join me, if you haven’t already. ✊
@@matthewjohnson3656 agree in total ...if within scop 5 or better (5kw+ heat for 1 kw electricity= there are no more further calculations required if it makes sense or not, it does, even viable solar offgrid friendly nowadays!!!
but still 3K$ or more is a dealbreaker 1 in each room when having each one implemented though...
For your information, there are window AC units which serves both heating and cooling. It costs a bit higher than those with cooling only but the difference is small. When used as heat pump, it reverses the operation of the air conditioner.
Midea and many other brands provide such products.
In area which is not too cold in winter, it is one good option.
Few even have portable a/c and heat pumps. I had one, heat pump worked great thru winter, with the exception of the week we had in single digits. Heat pumps aren't too great once you start getting below 32F. A/c part of it though is another story. It's garbage, leaked out the bottom near electric cord. Getting ready to battle with the company for a refund.
Most those window AC heat/cool units use ordinary resistance heating for the heat.
Really depends where you live. In Florida I have a 5000 BTU "box standard" Window-mounted AC unit. It easily cools my 150 Sq ft Office/Den. For our brief and relatively mild winters, a 1500 watt element-driven space heater no bigger than a shoebox makes the room toasty warm in minutes and can be moved around for best effect. Together they cost less than $250 and have each been in usage for nearly 5 years. That is main attraction.
I've got two window heat pumps, but they only work down to 41°F. They're built like regular window air conditioners, but they're reversible. Look for A/Cs with heat. One of them is a Midea. The other is Perfect Aire. The DOE really needs to get on this, because new heat pump designs can work much lower. I'm looking at a mini-split that will work as a heat pump down to -13°F. It will also cool with outside temperatures as high as 122°F. That is something we're going to be needing in the coming decades.
Great idea but the defining issue will be the style of window. Crank, narrow, wide, horizontal hinge, vertical slide, center pivot, etc.
More flexibility at the design stage will definitely lead to more purchases.
At the end of the day, for most people it's cost that matters. My friend got a Heat pump installed, and due to high electricity costs, he's paying more then 2x what cost him when he had natural gas heating. The energy guide has electricity at ¢13/kWh, I pay 3x that when you combine deliver/usage fees. While heat pumps are excellent technology, I don't expect them to get lots of traction when it's cheaper to use gas heating. Though NYC is banning gas heating in new buildings.
Yes, through the efforts off CCAN and others like it, you will be relegated to only using energy sources they approve of at a much higher cost.
You pay for gas by the therm. A COP of 1 takes about 30 kwh for 1 therm. So even if you have a good COP (say 3-5) and a therm of gas was twice as much as a kwh and the gas furnace wasn't that efficient it is still less money to run the gas. If they take natural gas away, wood furnace or propane is still cheaper.
Looks great Sounds even better But the $3,000 mark is a little bit over the top
@@barongerhardt Right, 1 therm is about 29.3 kWh. But where I live, electricity is about 3x the cost of gas per kWh, and a COP of 3.0 is really optimistic for a reversible air source heat pump in cold weather. Remember, these machines lose efficiency AND heating capacity as the outside temperature gets lower. I have a (partial-home) mini-split heat pump rated to continue functioning down to -13F, but it's cheaper to use my ancient gas boiler below about 30F, and the heat pump has trouble actually keeping the first floor warm below 20F. I know, "old home problems", but until I can get a major insulation upgrade that's how the math works. On top of that, a dedicated heater system can distribute the heat better than a system that has to do both heating and cooling. The thermal gradients in my home are greater when using the min-split heat pump than when using the boiler distributed through hot water baseboards.
Still, for keeping warm in spring and autumn the heat pump is great. It's a backup for if the boiler kicks the bucket, and it diversifies my heating energy sources in case the price of methane spikes.
Yeah. Comparing thermal efficiency across fuel sources isn't really useful. There's an argument to be made that the government's role is to internalize externalities, meaning they should price the climate costs of using natural gas into its rate, and that might even out the cost. Comparing efficiency is useless unless the waste heat not utilized is problematic.
Although you mention furnaces have a COP of less than 1, I think its important to mention its not an apples to apples comparison when comparing COPs of different energy sources and how they might effect their cost to run.
Comparing cost is going to differ dramatically by region but even the idea that something that is 2-3x more efficient might be more expensive to run highlights the degree we subsidize fossil fuels and ignore the cost of externalities.
Indeed. For now, gas has been so much cheaper than electricity that electric heat is never going to be a money saver, regardless of COP.
@@stevensmith4099 I don't disagree and it's not something we can just gloss over.
Thats not true in the northwest. Our electric is cheap and natural gas is very expensive. Complete oposite of northeast. @MrMadsci7
@@valleyofiron125 And I truly hope it stays that way for you. We’ll see what moves in to replace the hydropower going offline.
In 1976 I was in the Bahamas. It was cold that winter and my first night there I froze. I didn’t know the air conditioner could work as a heater from then on. I was fine wherever I stayed because that was standard down there. I remember it, but definitely Improved when I realized I could Switch the air conditioner to heat mode. This must be the same idea and of course it doesn’t get as cold here..
I had a Bosch Heatpump replace my central AC unit. Used same duct system. It cost $7000k but I got a rebate for $3500, so in the end it cost me $3500. It’s a large unit cooling and heating my 2000 sq ft ‘95 condo. Seems cheaper than $3000 for a one room unit. I do love my heat pump.
This concept goes way way beyond just New York apartment dwellers. This is basically a one piece mini split that can go in nearly any window and plug into 120V. These could be used in nearly any dwelling, school, or workplace, and provide a nearly instant and cost-effective HVAC system. That's just huge. A lot of homeowners have been moving to mini-splits and often you need multiple separate units for an entire home. They need professional installation. At an average cost of $5,000 each these days installed that is pretty expensive. We just installed one, but it only covers two rooms. Also most run on 240V, which has to be run to each unit. I've been waiting for these saddle shaped heat cool units to hit the general market but as yet they're still not really there. When they do, it would be a real revolution in HVAC across the market. You could easily buy a number of these for your home and ditch your central heat and air. I would buy two tomorrow.
it is very old, recycled tech. Noisy.
Umm you most certainly do not need a professional to install a mini split. Tons of women online doing it start to finish... They are marketed as easy instal..... Maybe a electrical outlet needs professionally installed at most. Did you forget these window units cost 3 times as much as a split unit or even a full unit? Not worth it at all until they come down in price.
My windows open horizontally
@@cmo5807in an apartment in NYC...lol.
Soleusair is the answer $500 and yes you can still use the window. Ours is AC only - that's all we need
Matt, there are temperature control valves for radiators that work. They aren't that expensive and there are models that are self contained. They do have to be maintained and repaired when not in use. I am not even talking about the fancy electronic one, just bi-metallic strip ones that let up turn your heat up and down on each radiator. Just mandating them as code for the city for all residences and enforcing it would save a lot of energy and save a lot of money in energy bills for the landlords. They can set the max at 80 F (old people and those walking around naked for various reasons) and then just watch the saving roll in.
I am pretty sure that they are code required for new construction, but updating the code for public housing and offering a tax break to landlords that install them and show they are working by having them inspected (get the landlords to insist on having their properties be inspected by a city inspector, see what I did there) would probably work to get them installed city wide.
I haven't heard of the valves needing any maintenance. Even if they need a tiny bit of maintenance they are definitely the way to go for centrally steam/water heated buildings. The best part is that they offer proportional control instead of the on-off of a traditional thermostat.
@@eDoc2020 Any steam system is going to have increased erosion of the parts where there is turbulence and/or high flow rates. Control valves have both, so the valve and the valve seat erode over time and either need adjusting or replacement. The valves used in steam systems account for this and are either really overbuilt ball valves or carrot valves that need tightening periodically.
Steam erodes metal and most materials as it flows through it, even steel. This is why boilers require a licensed boiler maker/operator to work on them and do checks on them along with regular inspection by the government. They will fail by leaking, then explode if you don't keep them repaired. This is also why steam pipes and valves get leaks over time and need expensive maintenance all the time in older buildings, with the system becoming more and more trashed as it gets older. The reason why the radiators don't wear out is because they are a part of the systems where the steam contracts and loses pressure as it cools on the cold surface of the radiator, so this protects them. Being made out of thick cast iron also gives them a lot to lose.
I think it not being required by code is why the landlords aren't using them on the East coast. It could also be that they don't want the lines to the colder apartments to be failing sooner because of the heightened flow to them so they are running the same flow in the entire system. There is also the issue of how the system is plumbed/designed that having the variable valves on it they might need to run higher pressure to keep it from dipping too low when they are kicking on and off as demand happens to prevent the steam in the system from dropping pressure and changing from dry steam to wet steam or even condensing into water and then causing even more problems.
I think this lower operating pressure in their system's design is what it limiting their use of the valves, but there is a work around on that, and that is to use electronically controlled valves at the radiators that are centrally controlled so a pressure drop never happens. You can have the valves be mesh networked over a type of industrial WiFi designed for this exact thing and get the power to run them off of a thermo-electric generator in the valve, so you wouldn't have to run wires. It is possible that wiring them might still be needed, but we are looking at low voltage CAT-6 with 24V AC on it for power then, which is easy to run.
@@KnightsWithoutATable I was thinking of water systems but I suppose you're right, most of these buildings are likely using steam.
Everyone knows that but places that use window units are older building that don't have modern heat system usually.
In reference to the grid and the strain all the heat pumps would collectively add... Are they not just replacing space heaters and window a/c units currently in use?
But let's add E.V. to the grid in the meantime. Makes sense.
The concern is that we're replacing fossil fuel heating with electricity, but it will be a mix of that and replacing resistance heating.
But regardless it's a non-issue. We aren't going to roll it out all at once and grid upgrades are happening all the time with this planning in mind. It's nothing new.
I think many buildings have the central heat and many residents have window ACs. But the heating is at low efficiency. Imagine 1,000,000 BTUs of fuel is burned in a boiler room to heat a building in the winter. Now, with everyone having heat pumps, it would take only 400,000 BTUs to heat. But, it does use electricity instead of natural gas or oil, so the grid does get strained more. Overall, less energy used though.
@@rclewis01This^
It's more efficient energy, but MORE total electricity usage overall. Yes, some will be converting from shitty window a/c to heat pump (which will actually use less electricity), but many will be converting from natural gas as well.
Several years ago i owned a 660 sq ft bungalow. Never had heat, used tiny kitchen oven and small space heater. Eventually installed window unit that had heat and cool for $700.
Someone needs to develop more things like this for horizontally opening windows.
Another option could be for the building owners to install Grey Water Collecting tanks for temporally collection water from showers and clothes washing and then retrieve the waste heat from the water for recycling that same heat back into apartments. This is often an huge overlooked source of heat that is readily available with the right type of heating/plumbing system.
Matt again chose some kind of “wunderwaffle” that will not affect anything. He has talent
I prefer Mideas current U shape...for $300 delivered to our door, it's 12kbtu 15SEER, it keeps our living room cool and it's using way less energy than our old 8kbtu window AC that could barely keep up. With our kids, pets and furniture I want it higher up, not lower to the ground. Contemplated getting a mini split but after factoring in installation supplies/costs even DIY it would take way longer to pay for itself...plus we can bring the window unit with us or switch it out easier when the next efficiency leap happens. The one we got doesn't do heating but all they'd really have to do is add the reversing valve, the app even shows heating options it just doesn't work. Natural gas is still just so much cheaper to heat with, compared to $.27/kWh.
My power is a bit cheaper but that is close to what I pay for 1 therm of natural gas. Which is 30x better than a COP of 1 electric system that Matt is always implying. Doing the math an old trash tier 50% efficient gas furnace at $0.30/therm has a cost of $0.60 per useful therm. That is still less cost to run than a heat pump with a COP of 5 and power at $0.15/kwh ( 1/5 * .15 * 29.3 = $0.90 / useful therm). The reality is that most of these heat pumps start to fall way short of a COP of 3 when temps get even remotely close to winter temps in my region and a decent gas furnace is 90-95% efficient.
27 cents per KWH ? My rate is 9.3 cents per kwh .. from my pov almost 30 cents per kwh is a bit too much..
@@kennyiglesias622 Upper Peninsula Power Company. Basically the only provider and they don't even make enough of their own power all of the time they have to import from Wisconsin sometimes. It's what's making buying a used EV not even worth it, until I can figure out more solar. Just put up a 3-4kWh array and that's offsetting a lot of our home loads... should pay for itself in 3-5 years.
@@kennyiglesias622 30 is close to the highest in the US. Your price is about the lowest. Most are in the 10-15 range and all but a few are 20 or less.
Well ywah 50 percent more power will do 50 percent more work
This really is ground breaking. I’ve converted a vintage travel trailer into my man cave and a little unit like this fits my heating/cooling needs perfectly!
120v to my backyard, and no plumbing/refrigerant lines makes it easy.
I own 2 heat pumps. One must remember that both sides of the
unit, indoor and out need to drain. In the Winter the outdoor unit will
have to drain liquid water from time to time. Areas below could
become slick or just covered in ice.
What about side-opening windows...?
I'd give anything for better cooling, but it would involve rebuilding my window entirely for this...
Could you account for the cost of rebuilding the sliding window into the cost of operating the heat pump? Also, is it worth the sliding window with a more insulated window? 🤔🤔
Use a mini split unit it’s this but you drill a hole instead of using a window
@@bob_mosavo As Matt says, the one down side of these types of technologies is the high up-front cost and the amount of years they take to recoup that initial investment. Having to replace otherwise fine windows (I assume they aren't single pane windows from 1932), just adds to that upfront cost and takes longer to see a return on investment.
I'm sure that Germans with come up with something fairly soon. For now, I use a vertical adapter with a hose connected to the mobile heat pump. It's not perfect, but it works.
@@bob_mosavo you can't replace the window if you are in a rental
Thank you and good morning!
I'm sure some HoA Karen will start complaining she does not like the heatpump because it looks ugly. 🤦♂
They ARE ugly. Why not an HOA Kevin?
@@mustelina Thanks for snitching out on yourself, have a good day. 👋
Don’t understand your point but you seem pretty hostile.
Every year i checked to see if anyone was making these because years ago it came to me that this form factor was a much better alternative than the standard window AC, but it wasn't until a few years ago that i finally started seeing them being sold. Maybe in five years it'll become the standard and will finally reach a much more affordable price.
I like the Gree Mini Split with their quieter, and higher, and lower ranges for both heating and cooling. No DIY units like others, so that adds thousands, but one of those would be the way to go along with a wood stove, or rocket mass heater for back up. A RMH could be used for cooling as well where I live, pumping cool night air through it every night, releasing it through its clay mass daily.
now if only they can make those that work with horizontally opening windows. Like most of the rentals I have had.
minisplit works. i also can't believe I'm saying this, but it may also be cheaper lol. those upside-down window-hanging units are an absolute ripoff.
You can get both traditional and upright oriented reverse cycle (heat pump) window air conditioner units for those windows but some transfer of fresh air is also important health wise and not all necessarily do it
Whether its for "everyone" or not depends on whether one can go into the local big box store (the orange, blue or green one) and buy one off the shelf without taking out a personal loan. Fancy new expensive tech is inaccessible to the average "everyone" - likewise for government programs that only provide them to limited numbers of people in specific locations and/or that meet specific eligibility requirements. Ah nine minutes in and we get to the reveal. Absolutely batshit crazy three grand or more pricing. Nope, its only for people that get them free from a govt program, or people that can blow a big pile of money. Definitely not for "everyone"
That’s the problem with so many of these devices, the cost should be at or less than the more complicated legacy devices. These new heat pumps are very simple and you would hope the costs come down dramatically over the next few years and we can get one for a few hundred bucks from a Home Depot.
Then let the people with enough money adopt the product, wait a year or two and see if the prices go down and buy the product at a reduced cost. Planning ahead is the way of life.
This is a big problem but the only real solution is to bring more of them to the market.
Granted, to get onboard is expensive, but the heat pump side of this would likely save $200/$500 per year in areas where winter heating is required. Not enough to initially justify the current purchase price, but if that price comes down to about $2000, the overall cost is a net save.
Completely missing the point, but keep scoring troll points.
Boardroom pitch: Yeah, let’s repackage a $150 unit and sell it for $3000!
I’m using a Midea window unit right now in my FROG. Works great!
Yes, this is a good idea. Some things to consider.
Typical 120 V volt receptacles in North America are supplied by a 15 Amp breaker but the largest size appliances that are normally allowed to be manufactured t intended to be connected to a 120 volt receptacle are rated at 12 Amps. If you do the math 120 multiplied 12 is about 1500 Watts or 1.5 KW.
Normally there are several receptacles connected to one 15 Amp breaker so you can plug in several different appliances but if you exceed 15 Amps the breaker will trip and turn everything off until you reset it.
A heat pump rated 9000 BTU/hr heat pumps will probably be in the range of 8 to 9 Amps which is in the 1000 Watt range. In the older apartment buildings if every apartment connects a heat pump it adds up to allot of extra power and the older electrical servicers for these apartments may have to be upgraded. This is the same problem with installing electric vehicle chargers in the underground or outdoor parking lots in older building and condominiums. Sure the electrical services can be upgraded but it will be complicated and costly.
I moved into a "green" apartment building and it has converted me to an efficiency nerd. In winter, despite now having a W/D and dishwasher, my electric bill cratered to 1/4 of what it was in a smaller unit. In summer, it essentially vanishes as the solar system takes over. So well insulated the heat pump runs for a grand total of 90 minutes a day.
There's always a point of diminishing returns. If you're building a house and spend an extra $100K to make it super energy efficient, it's going to take a century of -$200 on your electricity bill to break even.
The pretty common problem in older buildings with radiant heat producing so much heat that you have to open the windows is a design feature of the time. The belief that fresh air is crucial, that residents should be able to obtain fresh air in winter while having warm homes.
I’m sooo amazed you are so far behind in the US - and the prices on hvac systems😮
In Europe we have used far more efficient and cheaper systems for more than 15 years😮
But congrats - step in the right direktion👍👍👍
The problem is you can't use the window while it's in there (just like an AC unit). I saw a video about alternatives to a Mini Split or in wall HVAC.
Sure there are advantages over a typical in window Heat/AC, like it doesn't block the view, but you have to take out the screen, and put insulation between the top and bottle window parts so no option to use the window without removing that insulation and going without a screen. There are times where it's always cheaper to open a few windows and get cross breeze than run anything.
Enjoyed the apartment window HP. The EV raffle is for US people only.
Lol these cost more than a regular mini split heat pump. I am sure as other brands start making these the price will drop considerably. Until then NO SALE.
I just bought a regular Midea window unit with a heat pump for $350. It's an 8,000 btu A/C, with 7,000 btu heat @ 120V. You can also get it in 12,000 BTU. I think someone is trying to sell a bill of goods here.
The bracket that accepts the heat pump during install has gas struts that are installed upside down 🙃 the shaft should point down and the gas strut body on top so that the oil in the strut soaks the seal while in the long term compressed orientation. Look at any gas strut on your car to confirm.
Seals are mostly rubber, so it won't matter, rubebr doesn't get soaked. Also; to refer to your car analogy; take a look at motorcycles, most modern ones have usd (up side down) forks, but those didn't come around until the early 90's/late 80's, and most old motorcycle forks from before then still work fine without any repairs.
P.s. it's also covered from the sun, so the rubber won't degrade as quickly
With a heat pump onboard, the struts get used 1 time?
The struts won't get used very much so likely not an issue. I mean how often are you going to be using them? Once a year for maintenance?
They might be upside down but the aren’t even vital to the function of the unit and it’s just a render of what it might look like. Every chance they don’t even contain struts when the actual unit is delivered.
The pumps need to work in the Arizona heat. 95F-115F is cutting it close to the pump limits.
For low humidity climates like Arizona, an evaporative cooler pre-stage would get the job done nicely.
not really. arizona is dry. you need far less "cooling" than a new yorker needs.
Most of the energy for cool is not actually going to cooling. its going to dehumidification. it actually does not take much energy to "cool" air. most of it goes to water removal.
you already have air with no water in it. so you only need to cool it. these should work just fine in arizona.
I live high altitude in new mexico (6800ft) it cost almost nothing to cool my home. it just does not take that much energy when the air is this dry.
Heating is another issue though. double edge sword of high altitude. we see 10 below 0 here at times (though very rarely)
In sw MO our heat pump was inadequate. Froze in the winter and sweated in the summer
This video blew me away. You're right... it was a genius idea that was only obvious after someone did it!
I love how everyone is so excited about this new heat pump technology. I remember working on 30 year old heat pumps over 30 years ago. It's not new technology.
Why not just install a $150 AC unit backwards? 😂
lol yeah, theoretically. I think the problem is the regular units won't be able to draw enough heat out of the winter air. minsplit units can, probably because of more efficient design and different refrigerant.
A heat pump is just an air conditioner running backwards, so there is no reason for one to be much more expensive than the other. Indeed, most $150 AC units can both heat and cool as far as I know.
@@thorvaldspear almost NONE can. in fact I am only aware of a single unit that can and its only good down to 41'f and is $379.
otherwise "NO" window units I am aware of work as heat pumps. many have HEAT but its "NOT" a heat pump. its a resistance heater built into the unit meaning zero efficiency difference than plugging in a space heater.
Because it needs a reservoir of heat to pump. Not much hear outside in the winter. Thays why they usually use a large tube undergroind to pull heat from. In my xp they arent dit for purpose.
I wish these were possible for european windows that only open to the sides.
just get minisplits instead. might even be cheaper.
@@snowballeffect7812 thanx! Unfortunately, I live in a rented flat. Something that I could take with me when I move would be perfect.
@@mael1515 ah, i guess convincing the landlord would be out of the question? lol. some places have subsidies/rebates so might still be a good long-term investment for them. I suppose it's a growing problem now in Europe since AC wasn't really a requirement before climate change made things a bit off kilter.
@@snowballeffect7812 my landlord is actually pretty amazing, but the central gas burner is only a few years old, so replacing it is something that I don't even have to ask for.
@@mael1515 nice!
For our condo we had a quote of $10k to update our old 2Ton AC system because it was starting to fail. They would have to change the roof condenser as well as the furnace for the newer Freon gas. Instead we just got a Media window AC system from Costco for $300 which was 12,000 BTU. Two of them can cool our whole condo and would be so much quieter then the loud blower fan. Each unit draws about 300-400 watts vs my central air that will pull 2000-2200 watts. So two of them only cost $600 and can get the same BTU of 2400! I also love that I can only cool a portion of my condo rather then the whole unit. For winter our building provides floor radiating heat so we didn't need to worry about a 2 way heat pump. I feel like this was a win win!
It's quality, though. A good system would cost less to run and be more even. You're comparing your very old system cost to a new window unit that's more efficient. A new roof unit would perform waaay better than those new window units.
Problem is the sales of new units usually push the cheapest unit thwy always install than a variable unit for a grand or two more which is way more efficient.
Friedrich Kuhl 10,000 BTU Window Air Conditioner w/ Heat Pump Model: KHS10A10A List price $1,769. While not the fancy saddle style that's a lot lower cost. Or how about the Amana AH123G35AX 11,600 BTU window mount heat pump for a cool $1099? For the mini split types there are ceiling cassettes to use instead of the wall hung units. The outside units could be mounted on the building roof then the wires and pipes run down to the apartments.
Then there's the Tech Ingredients guy who posted a video a few days ago on using an air conditioner for heating.
I live in Toronto. Many landlords now insist that tenants use floor model portable a/c units as nothing can hang out the windows. This is because of liability if the units fall out of the window. Later this year, the city will pass a law banning any type of unit that hangs out windows. A window heat pump is awesome tech but probably won't be permitted in Toronto.
Wow that's pretty dumb considering floor model A/Cs are the least efficient.
Instead of just making sure the units are properly secured... Uhg.
Why didn't we do this earlier? I had a window heat pump in the early 80s. I can't believe the world stopped making these and only just now rediscovered the idea. More likely, Matt just found out about them and thinks he discovered something new.
Ok
Now I just need windows that aren't extremely narrow...
Or the right type of window.
@@Vile_Entity_3545 Not applicaple for most european windows. (Except UK and around) Windows need to be of the "sliding" type. Windows around here open by rotating the windows around the vertical axis. You would need to redesign the entire window or put a slit below the window into the wall.
There is one major design flaw with this. The fact that the outdoor section hinges for installation and removal. This means that the unit is not hermetically sealed. a portion of the refrigerant lines have to be rubber to allow for this, just like in automotive applications. Estimates with modern vehicles are in the 7-10% refrigerant loss each year because of the semi permeable nature of the rubber tubing that couples the compressor to the rest of the system so the egine can move on the engine mounts. I guarantee that at this point these units are not meant to be recharged every few years, which means their fancy efficiency rating is going to drop quick.
Well not necessarily. A long enough coil of copper tube can easily bend 90 degrees without any damage.
@michaelbuckers while you're right, that may be possible, copper isn't cheap so it's very doubtful that's the route they took. I watched the part of the video again where they show the internals being assembled, but you can't see the top where this would be, so you can't tell from the video.
At $2-3k per unit, I think they’re probably using all copper inside. Maybe they will be using rubber if the price is that of a window A/C unit ($150.00). But they can’t justify $2-3k pricing and skimp on the internals.
Some of this type of unit use a coolant rather than refrigerant to bring the heat inside (or outside). This requires a few more parts (which could explain some of the price) but keeping all the refrigerant outside has some huge benefits. In addition to easy flex joints it lets them safely use more dangerous refrigerants which are often more efficient.
I live out here in Southern AZ where it can reach 100-115F. I looked into these types of units, but decided on a more permanent system like a 3 zone Mitsubishi unit. Now I can keep my bedrooms cooler at night without having to run my 5 ton central HVAC system. I am seeing more and more of this mini split systems in areas like Boston and New Hampshire in my Fall travels. time after time, Mitsubishi and Daikin win out against the cheaper Chinese knockoff units. Sadly, many of these older buildings don't have good insulation. We're seeing more and more people insulate older homes with denim based insulation or Rockwool. That extra investment helps save on electrical consumption throughout the year.
Thanks Matt for this episode , I have been looking at solutions for my garage and didn`t want to drill through the walls and also have a lack of space outside for a unit . these window units look perfect for my application , they are still pricey and may be my only option, I live just outside of Boston .
Heat pumps are great for those of us who don't like "toasty" heat in the cold winter. If you don't mind air blowing on you that feels cool, but eventually warms up a room, this my friend, is for you!
Just turn your air conditioner backwards, you're welcome.
awesome video and perfect for policy makers as many cities look at building performance standards
In-window and In-wall heat pumps have existed for awhile.
$200-500.
The best ones running off 208-240VAC.
I have a window heat pump from Friedrich that has a better output than those and it’s $1600. I don’t get why your pumping these products
If yours offers better heat output at the same outside temperatures it probably has greater electrical requirements. If you need a 240v outlet or a dedicated circuit it's not a fair comparison.
Having said all that, $3000 is unreasonably expensive. $1500 is more reasonable and still double what a similar performing mini-split costs.
If people can afford rent in NYC they can afford 3k Window Heat Pump.
What a great idea! Even the installation looks better than a window AC. The cost, however, needs to come down since most of the components are the same as a window AC. New tech development costs are built into the initial units. Think of hard drives, lap-tops, laser printers/copiers, etc.
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I upgraded my window mount AC unit last summer to a cheaper window mount heat-pump unit in my house in MA. The units I got still have the same old window-filling form factor, and have a significantly higher low-temp cutoff for some reason... (advertised 40F). Even in New England though, this was able to supplement my late fall and early spring heating needs enough to significantly reduce my gas bill. I only needed the primary gas furnace full time between Nov~Feb this past season.
I was expecting something informative or even educational. I got an infomercial instead.
I use the inverted version of the U-shape. I live in the humid SE where there is considerable condensate. Water flows downhill. With the upright U shape, the condensate will flow across the window sill and drips outside. I've read where Midea users complain that it drips condensate on the floor. With the upright U-shape, the window slides down into the U.
Midea also makes the "upright U" version which has no leaking condensate problem.
If I still owned a condo, I'd probably buy one. I live on a boat now, and many boats are already using this technology, just in a different shape.
As soon as i heard "eligible for funding under the inflation reduction act" i knew theyd cost 10x what any other window AC unit would, that acts names always gets a chuckle
I love the shape and the ease of use. I hate the cost and living in Florida the bad seer ratings.
A regional home improvement chain sent me an ad containing Mr. Cool brand DIY mini-split heat pumps from 12k - 36k btu. only the 12k unit runs on "120"v. and the biggest using 22 @. My conventional 4 ton AC uses 31@ at "220"v upon startup. I'm still watching the industry for when I have the cash and other upgrades made to this 1912 vintage 2.5 story house. {Since the HVAC system was recently replaced, I have about a decade to work with.}
I have a Friedrich 120V window heat pump. In fact before this Gradient came out, Friedrich’s was the only 120V window heat pump on the market. (I believe Amana makes a 240V window heat pump.) Including installation it cost me about $1500 and it was well worth it! Unlike most heat pumps, Friedrich’s model also has an exhaust fan to remove smoke or odors and an intake fan to let in fresh air or cold air when the temperature outside is under 60 degrees. That’s why these Gradient and Midea models cost more, they can work in much colder temperatures
Many renters agreements forbid window ac units. These don't sit in the window, but don't be surprised if the property manager doesn't understand the difference.
I live in Texas. In the summer, 95 degrees is a cool day.
Now if I can just find a window unit for these darn side way sliding windows I have life would be good
It didn’t strike me how much building design influences heating and cooling until after I lived in a bunch of different places. When I lived in Montreal lots of the walk ups had front and back access. So you could create a cross breeze. But also living in some apartment buildings that were only on one side of the building it was very stagnant. Now I live in an old Vancouver home with the ability to do a cross breeze and haven’t needed an AC.