.40s&w vs 10mm for Woods Defense 200gr Underwood Hardcast
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Is .40s&w really that much less than 10mm? Would either be a good woods defense firearm? Let's Find out!
*All Firearms were safely used in a controlled environment like a shooting range.
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This video proves that you can get it done with 40. Remember you’re gonna have a more than just one round
Yep! Stay safe out there
Maybe, maybe not.
A couple of years ago I ordered several boxes of the Underwood .40 hardcast rounds, I live down South so big hogs are my main concern while bow hunting. I usually carry a 357 or 44 magnum revolver with hardcast but my G22 is much easier to carry, after seeing your test results I no longer have any doubts about them penetrating hogs. Thanks for your efforts!
Thank you for watching. Go get some bacon!
In times like these there's nothing more comforting and heartwarming than clicking on your videos.
Thank you. It's definitely a rough time
Thank you so much for this. Its practically impossible to find info on 200 gr hardcast ammo for .40 . You really made my day posting this video.
Thank you very much for watching! Glad it gave you information that you were looking for.
10mm completely took off here in Alaska . It's crazy to see everyone wanting one now . It used to be everyone had to have a
Glock 21 , now it's the G20 everyone wants . I switched over years ago when it wasn't the "cool kid" thing to do 😝
I came up here with a g21 and a g30...
Converted the g21 to .45 super
That's my bear carry gun normally
@@AlaskanBallistics .45 super is a badass round! I loaded and tested a bunch when I got the springs to convert over to it and Im impressed! When you add all that velocity to that bowling ball round its magical! 💪🏻
I think thts world wide the 10 mm blew up. Its faster than a 9mm nd and stronger than .45 so i mea. I have the g40 , g 20 n 10 mm arp
@GeeToven good combo!
I carry a 10mm in the Eastern woodlands, but I have switched to a .40 since watching several penetration videos of .40... The .40 is lighter to carry than a 10mm, and in the slight chance of an encounter I don't feel under gunned.
Fair enough
😂lighter to carry? Try working out once in a while and the extra once won’t break your back.
@@bluebeastsrt how many week(s) long hikes have you done?🙄 Every ounce matters...
@@richerich853 does being an army ranger count as hikes? If it does, I’ve been on a few.
@@bluebeastsrt I have been on a few hikes myself and everything you have said sounds like a private fresh out of basic. So calm down hero.
I am surprised the 40 cal did as well as it did. Nice content.
I expected about exactly what we got. Bullet construction has often a better offering value than speed
Nice video. Started using those Underwood .40 S&W 200 Grain Hard casts last year in a old Beretta 96 that was in my safe collecting dust. Turned it into a solid hog hunting pistol. Cycles and shoots great and slams the hams.
Sweet. Good hunting sir
Slams the hams lmao.
I go 40sw or 357 sig all day. I live in Nebraska. So worst case scenario I run into mountain lion or coyote which I think both will do its job.
Great video!… I’m a 40 Smith & Wesson man myself but love the 10 mill
Thank you very much
I am impressed by the. 40 😯😯
Picking up the Springfield xdm elite 10mm Monday, can't wait. It'll be my first 10mm in years.
Awesome man I hope you enjoy it and get a great great great many years of service out of it
@@AlaskanBallistics . Thanks, me too
@Greg Alcorn . That was a year ago. I carry my glock 20 and my ruger 454 toklat in bear country. 10mm is fine in the lower 48 even in Alaska 10mm will work
@@gregalcorn-pu5ye . Oh you're good man. My xdm got sold it got dirt in the grip safety and failed to fire.
The difference is totally reliant on what ammo you use. I watched one of Paul Harrol's (s?) videos when he ran 40 and 10mm (from the same mfg and the same bullet weight). The Federal JHP's (on a 5 shot group) showed a difference of FIVE FPS between 40cal and 10mm. The American Eagle (I think it was) range ammo had a difference of 20 fps and the only one that showed an actual difference was the Remington range ammo. I love 10mm, it's the real deal. Unfortunately, not all the ammo is. There are places just providing a longer case, a larger primer, and calling it 10.
Paul Harrell used pretty wussy 10mm in that video. I watched it too.
I see more variation in 10mm velocity than any other caliber. You really have to do your research to find a true 10mm round.
@stevenmiller184 very true sir.
A big shoutout to Alaskan Ballistics for their outstanding videos! Both content and production are great! We .40 Hard Cast nuts are hungry for this info and they do a great job of confidance building. It is wild and wooly out there!
Thank you kindly! Godspeed
Great video I was looking for something like this after considering getting a 10mm. Have always carried 200 grain DoubleTap .40 in the lower Rockies black bear country and wasn't too sure if it was sufficient but this is promising.
Bullet construction and shot placement count way more than energy.
I swapped out the barrel in my M&P Shield and put a .357 Sig in it. Between that and my now three 10mm handguns, the 40 is pretty much an afterthought for me. Although, I do prefer it hands down to the two 9mm pistols I own, but seldom ever shoot.
I can understand that
I love these type of videos, love to see the numbers! I was surprised the 40 did that much penetration but I'm gonna stick with my G29 on the property. I did get a nice leather chest rig for my Para 16-40 2011, so I might use it for when I'm mowing. :)
Good idea
This bullet seems optimized for .40-speed. Juicing it up to 10-speed makes it expand more and penetrate less. So I'm thinking UW needs to take the 10mm and harden it up a bit. Needs more antimony or tin, and less lead. That should reduce the expansion somewhat and allow the heavy 10 to drive deeper.
Good idea
As 10mm gets more popular, my hope is that more ammo manufacturers will make better rounds, that get the most out of the bullet. Currently, your average box of 50 10mm bullets isn't much more powerful than 40S&W, yet costs a lot more. This test was good, as he used powerful 10mm. My nightstand pistol is a 10mm full of JHPs with about 600_ft*lb of muzzle energy. That's all I can really afford. Hopefully that will change in the future.
Agree the Sig P239 is one of the best carry guns. Also suprised how well the 40 works but I should have known it. My 40 pistols have taken the role of my 357 mag and with Federal 180 fmj they break 1000fps. My s&w 629 4" throws 300gr+ hard lead at the same speed and will penetrate way better than any 40 or 10mm and my 45colt 454 does even better.
I enjoyed your presentation very much. All around everything that got tested was quite impressive.
Thank you very much. Nothing wrong with a good .357 magnum
Fully agreed sir the Sig P239 is an excellent platform for CCW and works well in 40 S&W as well as 357 SIG. I have both. The 40 S&W falling out of favor made these pistols available on the used and Police buy back market.
The 10MM and 40 S&W are two excellent cartridges. Each are well suited to their intended purposes. For hunting and protection in the back country of Alaska and Canada the Glock 40 in 10 MM is hard to beat and i am no Glock fan boy but the capacity is near double that of my Sig P220.
True but the p220 is smooth
The .40 is gaining fans in the outback. I have always loved it and it runs well, is spicy and more available/cheaper than 9 MM. Good to see Hard Cast info and videos!
Before seeing this I had a Glock 22 and wanted a 20badly.. After seeing this I’m content with these exact loads I have in my 22 .40s&w for North East PA black bear. along with any other predatory animals I could run into here.
shot placement is gonna take priority here when both of these calibers are viable . neither are perfect or the best.
Agreed.
You can get 22 rounds with 40sw, more rounds for you to get your shot placement and more accurate follow up shots.
A fair point @Rodney
@@AlaskanBallistics theoretically if you reload and load hot 40sw, with 22 rounds and you practice and a good shooter, you could have a fair chance against a grizzly if you can first at the same area of the head of the grzzly with 22 rounds pummeling the same area I am sure one round will eventually penetrate
@@rodney5269 yeah but hot .40s&w blow up. I've had it happen with federal loads
10mm is clearly the winner but you have to respect the .40 as well when it's loaded spicy like that :-)
Very true
Nice. There’s one thing I don’t like about 10mm. And I love my 10mm. It’s that companies like federal get away with loading “fbi load “ ammo. And it makes a false perception of the round. When you can get .40 and 10mm basically shoot right around 1000fps making there almost no benefit to picking 10mm over .40. But if you choose your ammo properly you get the results you would expect. I found the magtech 10a is a pretty decent round at .70 cpr that you get the most bang for your buck without spending 1.25$ + to get a power house round. So glad I found your videos.
I know the sig fmj is good as well
Just my opinion on the federal hydra-shock 10mm loads being almost identical to the .40. It is because of that 10mm "Perception", I do like the existence of those federal 10mm rounds and keep them on hand. I do find it to be a benefit for ~me~ at least, that one firearm can fill a few roles. When I'm out and about in big bear/predator country, I like my full house 10mm rounds for sure. When I go back into town, I swap in a magazine of the federal for ccw and self defense for human threats. If that unfortunate encounter happens, It can at least look more favorable I considered that fact, and "downloaded" my weapon to a standard power .40 cal. equivalent self defense round, that many LE agencies approve for use. I'm very confident in the energy and performance of that "low power" round for that purpose. Just my thoughts on it.
Makes sense
I carry .40s&w around town. But when I’m in the woods I carry my G20 with Underwood 220grain. So same concept. Makes sense to me also
This will suffice for the the dogman we have here in Ky, thanks for the video bro
No problem 👍 Godspeed and good hunting to you and yours.
My first handgun was a 40 and I still carry 40 today. I’m scrounging up some money to get a 10mm at some point but prices are crazy right now
Very true
Good test! Kinda already knew the outcome, but still impressed. Especially the foot lbs of energy from the little glock!
Yep exactly what I expected to happen happened
If I ever move up to Alaska a 10mm would be one of the 1st things on my need to get list. The. 40 performed really well but they had nearly the same penetration and the 10mm delivers a lot more energy. 10mm all day in this case for me. Thanks as always Chuck, God bless you and the family 😁🇺🇸
Thanks brother
I was surprised to see the hardcast bullet actually 'mushroom" out.
They do that when they hit something hard
That's what she said
@@dr.burtgummerfan439 big ole flared out mushroom head
Not so ‘hard’ cast, it seems.
Personally, for bear protection, I look for deeper penetration from a handgun, not temporary wound cavity. So it’s interesting that the 40 outpenetrated the 10mm in this case. Of course, it’s quite possible that the 10mm has a different off the shelf loading that can penetrate better than this test, but if it was between just these two rounds, I would choose the .40
I can concur with that. But it was so minuscule that you'd still prefer it.?
@@AlaskanBallistics I guess “prefer it” is the wrong choice of words, but I wouldn’t feel the need to go get a 10 if I already had a .40, strictly considering this test with this ammo. If I had neither, and trying to decide, I’d go with 10mm just for the same penetration but harder hit, and maybe there’s ammo that penetrates deeper? You’ve done a lot of tests, have you tested any 10mm ammo that got more than 5 jug penetration behind a plate?
Yes. In fact some days this same load gets more. I think it did in n my 10mm vs .357
Although I agree to an extent, the same amount of penetration with twice the impact energy means WAY MORE energy is going into what you're hitting, and thus you'll likely cause much more damage. That's why frangibles are quite scary for flesh, as they don't let any energy go to waste. Penetration does help to a degree, but too much is actually quite bad, as you don't put as much energy into what you're targeting.
@@dsrocks6905 in most applications, I would agree with you, but when it comes to bears, it’s all about penetration. Gotta get through that skull or all that muscle and fat to reach the vitals.
not being able to stop riding the slide release is like saying i cant stop putting my finger on the trigger
True. I just like my high grip and the slide release is so far back. I do rarely carry that gun for the that reason
Lots of shade thrown at the .40. I'm in Alaska and carry a G20 with mono metal loads. Not everyone will find that combo something they can shoot well.
For those who find being effective with a 10mm difficult, there's no real downside to using a .40 with the proper ammo.
In a tight spot I'd rather actually hit the critter than make noise and hope.
I carry a g29 10mm for camping. I live and camp in the mountains of Southern California. We have mtn lions and black bears. My 29 is bulky and heavy on my waist, and I rarely want to wear pants with a belt loop. I'm thinking about going to a .40 cal, smaller, lighter gun and use hot rounds. And carry it with a belly band.
Good vid. 40 S&W is a good lower 48 dual animal/human wilderness caliber. Adequate for black bear, plenty for mountain lion, and good on human defense. In Alaska or grizzly territory I'd take 10mm for sure.
This just proves that hotroding the 10mm isn't necessary for adequate performance. 200gr at 1,100fps is about the sweet spot. However, 100fps up or down isn't going to make any significant real world difference.
Well said
The 40 remains a good choice for defense against human threats
Agreed but this video was mostly for woods theatres IN the lower 48 as o mentioned
very interesting results. 10mm might cause greater hydrostatic damage (larger initial wound channel) but .40 SW retained more weight and penetrated as well. curious to know why you guys have seemingly abandoned revolvers like .454 Casull, .44 Mag, .480 Ruger and other big bores
@@Clambelly they're not abandoned. I still carry .44magnum 99% off the tone. My glock 29 10mm is back up
Great video. I carried a Glock 35 for a while with Double Tap 200 grain hardcast as a woods gun. It was good enough for what I was likely to encounter in NY, but I recently sold it to a buddy. I just bought a S&W 629 .44 magnum with a 5" barrel, which is more power than I'll ever really need here, but the fun factor is definitely a big reason I got it. I'll be able to hunt deer with it and be confident that it's solid against large black bears with full power loads. Will also bring it when I go back to Alaska and I'd be more comfortable with it than last time when all I had was bear spray.
Both are great choices. Have fun with the .44 let me know how big the buck is.
@@AlaskanBallistics haha, will do!
You are probably safer shooting .40 out of a 10mm Glock than shooting .40 out of the .40 cal Glock.
The theory I have seen presented is, it’s not the ammo causing the kabooms. Because Glock has loose tolerances, there is a chance for the cartridge to go to far into the chamber and the mouth of the case goes past the end of the chamber into the leade. When the round is fired, the brass isn’t allowed to expand and release the bullet until they pressure builds far enough to rip the sliver of brass off the mouth of the case. Sometimes there is enough pressure to blow the back of the case out, blow the mag release out, bend the slide or other damage.
It is often blamed on the ammo, but sometimes you find the little circle of brass that war ripped off the mouth of the case. Most people don’t look for it.
I have seen 2 Glock kabooms. One was a brand new 17 on its first trip to the range shooting factory ammo. The other was an old 22 shooting reloads. The 17 was locked up, but after we got the blown out case removed, it was good to go. The 22 was destroyed. Cracked frame and bent slide.
Thank you for the info and sharing your experiences. Godspeed and good hunting!
The 40 works just fine so does the old 45 ACP 357 hardcast 45 hardcast a friend of mine loaded me some 250 grain flying ashtray hollow points for a 45 doing over 1,200 ft a second how do I know when I shot a cinder block with it turned it into damn gravel Seattle 357 Hot load with the same thing just knock the chunk out of it shot a 9 mm app bounced back and hit me in the balls the 9mm wasn't hardcast it was FMJ
Yep
Your results make perfect sense. Not gonna lie, I bought a Taurus G2c in 40 for EDC because I loved the 9mm version so much but wanted more "oomph". I'll still carry my Taurus 65 along when I go hunting though instead. People aren't bears...
Yeah good luck. I'll never carry a Taurus because if quality issues but I'm glad yours works for you.
Godspeed and Good hunting!
Like you said, the .40 is better than a sharp stick in that situation but I will take the 10mm any day. Good stuff as always
Thank You Steel Punisher.
Penetration comes from bullet weight, not velocity. The proper load for the 10mm would be a 220 grain hardcast, this, at the same velocity of the .40 would surely get to the 5th jug.
Probably so. Thanks for watching and the comment
Thanks for the video. I was hoping to see what the 6.5" 10mm does in your water test.
You're welcome sir! Thanks for watching brother
Chuck, you have utterly shattered the myth that says 40 and 10mm are about same in performance. Sticking with my 10mm but like to shoot 40 as it's cheaper to plink. Awesome video, thx a lot.
Thank you
How about this? Take Underwoods 135 gr 40 and shoot it from the Glock model 40. See how close you can get to 1600 fps mv. The 10mm 135 gr goes 1600.
Awesome versus video, Alaskan Ballistics !!!!!!!!!
Thanks Jerry
I forgot to mention in the live stream that I recently picked up some ammo from a small manufacturer. 10mm 140gr solid copper hollow point, it's a mean lookin' projectile, reminds me of Barnes tac xp only beefier. Says 1,515 fps out of a 4.6in barrel. New starline brass. Altogether a really clean lookin' boolit, made by Steinel based in Ohio. Price ain't bad either (for 10mm) $23.00/20 check em' out when you get a chance.
Nice. I of course can't get them in Alaska but let me know how they do..
Underwood's 155gr goes 1610 in the g40 factory barrel.
I did a video on the barnes bullet
I actually feel better now after watching your video carrying my Glock 23 with solids for bear protection in Montana's Grizzly country. Penetration seems to be sufficient.
And it doesn't pull my pants down!!!
Just make a good shot
Isn’t 200 gr heavy for .40 since you can’t put more powder due to case capacity? I’ve even heard 165 would be better for .40 since the 180gr was originally made for the ten mm with a bigger case
Yes it is.... agreed i like 165gr .40
Alaskan Ballistics thanks for making these videos
@@49giants3 you're welcome
This isn't for defense against humans in general. Anyone shoot bears with the lightest load available in a rifle? No..Elk?...prob not . Weight is needed for deep penetrating rounds. Velocity burns off quick..mass does not ...either of these loads are better than most and either are better than none...I run 12ga slugs or 480 Ruger with 410gr hard cast for bear medicine . If I had to carry my Glock31 with my 40 barrel installed I would run hard cast for bears. I think there is a sweet spot for hard cast velocity. Too fast and it doesn't penetrate any better and maybe worse.
@@bigrich7026 480 is my favorite revolver cartridge, absolutely perfect in my opinion. Also you're right, running faster than the speed of sound with hard cast is silly. It just reduces penetration
Combine all that with 40sw having capacity extremely close to 9mm and fitting in 9 mm size handgun, lesser recoil than 10 with more capacity for easier and more follow up shots. Man 40sw looks really good because these are all just pistol calibers after all, they are no 45-70 , so shot placement still reigns supreme with pistol calibers and the 40sw looks like you will have better shot placements and more shot placements. 40sw is the most balanced caliber out of all common pistol calibers in terms of power, capacity, gun size, recoil, and versatility, and price and availability.
I don't know of a .40s&w that has significantly more capacity than 10mm. Most Doublestack 10mm are 16 +1
@@AlaskanBallistics You can say that about the 45 acp also , but how much bigger would the gun be compared to a 40sw of similar capacity. This why the 9mm is so popular.
Look if you need more then a .40 then you need more then a 10mm honestly......
Possibly. But with over 300 ft lbs between the two 10mm is better than .40 significantly
Alaskan Ballistics Yes it is until you put what you have against my hand loads, then the tables turn.
Due to less case capacity on the 40s&w I think Underwood should be using a 180gr HC bullet to get it going around 1,150fps or so. You're not gonna sacrifice much penetration depth if any at all between 180gr and 200gr, but you may gain better performance with higher speed and more energy.
Alaskan Ballistics ft lbs does not equate to a rounds ability to stop/kill something. It places entirely to much emphasis on velocity.
??gr. of longshot with a 180gr. XTP AVERAGES! 1350fps. out of my 5.85in. barrel Glock 22.
You will need a good brake and a 22+ lb. recoil spring.
I am selling my 10mm.
Underwood reduced the load in the 200gr Hardcast .
8.6 of Longshot to 8.4 Longshot in the 200gr Hardcast in 10mm.
My Handload 8.8 of LS with 200gr Hardcast FNGC in G20/kKM I get my 1250FPS. I don’t think the Underwood Hardcast is 20 to 22 BHN it’s more like Acme Bullets 16 BHN.
It's my understanding that after you go past about 1300 fps penetration gets harder and harder to get. Or in other words heavier bullets go deeper. We see this in your awesome video,,, take care
Thanks for watching. Godspeed to you and yours
A Speer Lawman TMJ 125 gr 357 Sig will out penetrate most other calibers and loads vs water jugs.
@@jamespmullin21753357sig is superior to 10mm.
Great video!! I use a 40 S&W in Northern Wisconsin and UP of Michigan. After watching i just ordered 200 grain hard case for black bear defense. Thanks for such an informational video!!
You're welcome. I pray you never have to use it. Thanks for watching and Godspeed to you and yours.
Very interesting, on the paper .40 looks less attractive, but penetration test makes them even. Maybe I'm missing something but looks like I can take .40 as a back up especially if we don't have grizzlies around?
Yep have fun.
@@AlaskanBallistics would you recommend with pistol 4.6- 5 inch. Smith and wesson 10mm auto or Beretta in 40 s&w? Didn't like springfield or glock.
They're good pistols. A beretta 96 is fine. The Smith and Wesson 10mm has had trouble feeding heavy rounds
@@AlaskanBallistics would you go in a woods with 40?
No not mine. I've been out with buddies who have had them. 200gr hardcast, no issues.
If you trust a 10mm at 50yds, then trust a 40 at 35yds, because that's basically the difference. If the .40 won't do it, the 10 won't either.
All about bullet construction and shot placement
Tbh both are great cartridges and either will do the job. It’s more about bullet type and shot placement. There’s been many of stories of 10mm hollow points not making it to the vitals of grizzly’s. With correct bullet types and shot placement both will do the job. A 40 to a vital will be more efficient then a 10mm missing a vital. Just take whichever you can shoot faster and more accurately
Agreed. That's why you use hardcast!
@@AlaskanBallistics 100% even if a 9mm is all you got. If I was in grizz country I’d always make sure to have hard cast or at least fmj
I totally agree. I always say that bullet construction and shot placement are 99% of the equation.
Are you talkin about 10 MMs failing to stop in a defensive role or a hunting role?
great video! i just ordered a police trade-in p239 in 357 sig. i can't wait till it comes in.
Send me your barrel to do tests with... I'll ship it back i promise
I have seen chronologically results for a lot of 10mms where the results with CCW ammo is very similar to 40. It's almost like they load 40 powder levels. I guess it's called the fbi load. So always Hasbro be careful with what you purchase.
There are a lot of water down 10 mm loads out there
Yep, that's the norm for 10mm self defense rounds. The FBI asked for that level of performance, Jeff Cooper and Norma decided to overdo it when designing the 10mm so now it can be super duper powerful.
@@jacobackley502 - Cooper and co. set the 10mm up for about 1000fps, and then contracted with BrenTen and Norma to go into production. Norma is the one who overdid it, so to speak. Their hot loads started breaking guns. The FBI then oddly asked S&W to make them a gun that was stout enough not to break like those others, but then the FBI turned around and put a weak sauce load in it anyway. Issues galore ensued.
@@texasbeast239 Negative. The Norma ballistician Sixten Holmquist who was involved with the 10mm Auto’s development from the very beginning, claims that the initial Dornaus & Dixon (the guys developing 10mm with Cooper) specifications called for 170- and 200-gr. bullets at 1,400 and 1,300 f.p.s. muzzle velocities, respectively. Reaching that level of performance required loading the cartridge to a mean average pressure of 37,000 p.s.i. with a maximum of 44,400 p.s.i.
@@jacobackley502 - Negative, on your negative. You didn't look far enough back in history. Before Dornhaus & Dixon and Norma, there were Cooper and Collins.
“Gun writers such as Jeff Cooper had been kicking around the idea of a .40-cal. cartridge that would offer more power than a 9 mm and more capacity than a .45 ACP. In the early 1970s, Guns & Ammo editor Whit Collins experimented with the concept using a Browning Hi Power. The result was the .40 G&A, a cartridge based on the .30 Remington case with the 180-gr., .40-cal. bullet from the old .38-40 Winchester launched at around 1000 f.p.s.”
www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/7/18/nine-lives-of-the-10-mm-auto/
“In the early 1970's an individual by the name of Whit Collins started looking at the feasibility of rechambering the 9mm Browning Hi-Power to a more powerful cartridge. Originally he was considering the .38 Super, but Col. Cooper's idea of a 200gn bullet of .400" diameter traveling at 1,000fps changed his thinking. Whit Collins did a lot of work just looking into the feeding geometry to see if a .40 caliber bullet could be made to function. When he was satisfied that it could he began looking for existing rifle cases that had the proper casehead dimensions and could be trimmed down to proper length for the Hi-Power magazine. With his drawings and some "dummy" loads made up he approached Jeff Cooper about his idea. Col. Cooper lent his support to Mr. Collin's idea and with investigative and research help from Guns & Ammo the project moved ahead. Next came assistance from Irv Stone of Bar-Sto and master gunsmith John French and by 1972 a Browning Hi-Power chambered in .40 G&A was being test fired. The loads being fired consisted of a 180gn bullet at 1,050fps out of the 5" barrel. In 1973 Col. Cooper and Mr. Collins started talking about a longer cased .40 caliber round that would be developed with the various .45 Auto platforms in mind. At this point Whit Collins went on to continue working on his .40 G&A and Jeff Cooper began his work on what was being called the .40 Super. A number of years went by until 1978 when Col. Cooper teamed with Thomas Dornaus and Michael Dixon. Via the Bren Ten semiautomatic pistol the .40 Super evolved into what we now call the 10mm Auto and the rest, as they say, is history.”
nordicg3k.tripod.com/website/id7.html
"Rewind back into the very late 70’s and early 80’s, the renowned Colonel John Dean “Jeff” Cooper, had the inspiration of a 40 caliber cartridge which would drive a 200 grain projectile @ 1000 feet per second which would translate into 444 foot pounds of energy. [...]
"Mr. John Donnelly, a friend of Mr. Cooper, [...] proceeded to load what was said to be two boxes or 100 cartridges, dubbing them “10mm Bren” and so the 10mm was born, later Mr. Dixon changed name to "10mm Auto" to be fired from the Bren Ten 10mm Auto Combat Pistol.
"Mike Dixon was able to finalize external specifications; he also upped the velocity specification to 1150 feet per second, which exceeded Col. Cooper’s numbers of 1000 feet per second and Dornaus wanted the numbers low for fear of reliability. [...]
"NORMA took on the commitment to produce the 10mm Auto brass cases and 10mm Auto ammunition in the spring of 1983[...]. The tested velocity was said to be 1260 feet per second which equates to 704 foot pounds of energy in April of 1983 with a 200 grain Jacketed Truncated Cone bullet with a 37,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) for a 10 shot average."
rangehot.com/original-10mm-ammo-made-ffv-norma-ab-%C2%B7s-670-40-amotfors-sweden/
Guess it depends on when you want to view the 10mm as originating. I trace its roots back to the '70s. But the actual designation didn't come along until D&D and Norma came into the picture, and they are the ones who souped up Cooper's vision and put it on steroids.
I love both the 40cal and the 10mm. But my conceal carry is the Eaa witness 10mm compact.
Awesome I've done a few tests with that as my buddy @Chuke's Outdoor Adventures here on RUclips has one.
.40 looks pretty good after watching this!
Except those numbers
With it being a semi auto with many documented bear defense stories, it's definitely gaining popularity
Nope penetration does... you can get more from different loads
Very. Important compairison. Excellent.
Thank you kindly
WOW! I thought 10mm would do better, thanks for sharing.
Yeah it's significantly better. Thanks for watching brother.
We need to write the ammunition manufacturers asking for the test barrel length what's the ballistic out of the optimum barrel length what's the velocity out of a 3 inch barrel 4 inch what accessory except for the outcome for a 40 Smith and Wesson is a 5.5 inch barrel
I live in rural Texas. I love the 10 and have several guns in it. I’m backwards and got a 40 after the 10s. Looks like in that load, a 40 would be fine for feral hogs.
Should be okay for hogs. Let ne know how it works
I shoot a 6" KKM in my G20.
I shoot the Underwood 220 gr hard cast. Haven't run it through a chronograph yet.
My son has the G40.
Great video
Thanks
You're welcome. Let me know what you get when you get it chronographed
I've got a g35 and a g40mos. I reckon if big hairy and mean actually gives me a chance to get my weapon out I've got 15 rounds for a reason.
Exactly
the difference between performance of the 2 rounds here and pretty well moot. I think any 10 mm loaded to it's full potential would certainly beat any 40 but the thing is more than half factory loaded 10 mm rounds struggle to stay on par with and sometimes even falling short of most common factory loaded 40 rounds in both chronograph and gel tests. This could be why and understandably so some claim a 10mm on average is not better than a 40
10mm got way more energy
Dinner plates really do a number on those bullets. Have you tried this test with the xtreme penetrators for both rounds? I wonder how they stack up with the hardcast?
Yes in separate older videos. I'll have to try to find the links
I use hardcast 40sw and it works great. I live pretty far north and deep in the Cascades.
Good luck sir
@@AlaskanBallistics none needed but thanks. I've been up here for years and only seen two grizzly and I was carrying my 45-70 at the time as well so. 40sw will deal with any issues I have up here. Mostly lots of black bear, cougar, and different canid species.
Oh I'm not doubting with proper skill you'll be fine.
Absolutely
Good comparison video. The 10mm lays the .40 cal to rest. One of the biggest arguments I know of.
Thank you sir. Godspeed to you and yours
Sharp stick👍😆 Held their weight pretty good! 90%👍
Yeah they did well
The 40 S&W showed that penetration is adequate. Energy means nothing compared to penetration ability.
If I could add to the conversation a bit. I have seen many chronograph tests of 40 S&W and the 10mm over the years. The 10mm in it's original form was closer to the 41 magnum in power levels. So, yes it is more powerful, but not always. The FBI in it's testing and adoption of the 10mm asked the ammo makers to adjust down the power levels for the agents who could not handle full power 10mm. This is the reason behind the 40 S&W, S&W was building the pistols for the FBI, out of there concern that some agents would buy full power over the counter ammo, they were working with Federal to make the original 180gr. hydroshock for their carry ammo and they were asking how Smith could help make sure their agents could not use the more powerful rounds. Smiths answer was to cut the case down a but to 9mm length.
Even today, if you use Federal 180 hydroshock ammo, the 40 S&W and the 10mm are almost identical.
My point here is, if you carry a 10mm for large game, you need to check that it is full power and not downloaded.
BTW, the best performance I have seen so far for the 40S&W is the Federal Hydroshock, but I here Buffalo ammo makes a 40 S&W +P, but I have not seen anyone test it yet.
You don't use any jhp type bullet for dangerous game. Dangerous game is really tough
@@AlaskanBallistics You are quite correct, I should have said for self defence against two legged critters. This was more a statement for general use. Personally if I were in Alaska , I would have a Mossberg with 3 inch slugs.
@Jeffy2n these are only a backup to the 12ga or 45-70
This was a great video, I must admit I was surprised. I know the 40 is an excellent round for everyday carry I would be willing to carry it as a backup for a 10mm backup.
Agreed back up to a back up
Both are amazing rounds but I'm sticking with the 40
👍 Best of luck
@@AlaskanBallistics yes Sir 👍👍
@derrickbecton7526 Godspeed and good hunting!
Thank you for the test . All I have is a 40 and that is the ammo I wanted to see.
You're welcome.
Glad I hit too test it for you
Some ammo does that with 10 vs 40. The hydra shok performs similar. Virtually no difference. But others there are a big difference. Ammo choice is up there as is shot placement. Thanks Chuck
Thank you Chris for watching and the comment. Godspeed
The 200 grain hardcast was not up to the task for the 10mm. That's why it did not penetrate better than the 40. Just like a powerful sportscar needs better tires than a regular sedan. Maybe, the plate was just too hard but a believe a heavier, slower or tougher bullet would have been a better choice. For this application penetration is everything and the bullet did not allow the 10mm to show it's superiority.. For maximum penetration as in a rifle solid cartridge there should be no "riveting" . Thanks for a great video and your honest comments. Regards,
Brian
Thanks for watching brother.
Often when the same bullet is going faster it'll deform more and therefore slow down faster and not penetrate as much.
I now feel more confident carrying my p239 in the woods.
Cool hope you never need it
Are you guys allowed to add a chemical to your bullet loads, sort of like the dude did in Jaws? Maybe a tiny capsule of fentanyl in a hollow point? Or would it not make a difference against a charging Bear?
Only a central nervous system hit will do the job
@@AlaskanBallistics Thanks for the reply. As a Brit with no guns or Bears im sure I have many more silly questions to ask in the future LOL.
Lol keep them coming my friend. And move to freedom as soon as possible
Idk if I would use pain killers in bullets.
I wouldn't add any chemicals personally
Great review man.. glad to chat with you the other day buddy
Thank you kindly. Good to meet you
With how much those projectiles deformed, I’m not sure that those are true hard cast bullets.
Maybe. I'd have to research that, but every brand of hardcast I've tried in this test, does the same thing
I can't get Garrett loaded Ammunition here. I'd like to here
I would be more than happy with 16 of the .40 cal here. A 200 grain hard-cast bullet at about 950 to 1,000 is perfectly capable of getting head/spine shots on big animals and breaking the shoulders of small to mid sized animals. My G22 has double the capacity of HK45C and it’s the same loaded weight and no harder to conceal.
Fair enough! Enjoy!
Thanks for the response. I’ve been thinky a lot lately. 😆
You're welcome. Godspeed and good hunting!
Great comparison! I would always go 10mm over 40 in bear country.
For sure
Nice comparison .... thanks for the video ...
If you stop a grizzly charge with any handgun you are damn lucky, personally I don't think it would make much difference. You have to make a shot that will kill the Grizzly and stay alive yourself for the next two minuets until the grizzly figures out it is dead.
Yes, the bear could be technically dead and still maul and kill you before it drops.
That is why you have a central nervous system shot not a heart shot
@@AlaskanBallistics I agree and if you make a central nervous system shot at close range it wont matter at all if it was 10mm or 40cal or .357 or .44mag
LOVE my P239!!
Great handgun
It seems the .40 is not soft enough on recoil as a 9mm seems to be better on that end and also not enough power to compete with the 10mm so it is stuck in no man's land and I own a .40 too....These testing results are always nice to bring some more clarity to what you might think as thanks for performing them....Good stuff....
Thanks Scott. And I agree with your analysis. Plan on doing .40 vs 9mm HST SOON
did u not watch the test?? the 40 went through as many jugs as the 10mm did. and its nor in no mans land. it in im more powerful than 9mm but less than 10 with ful powered rounds. so if you want more power than 9mm but less than a 10mm u use 40s/w.
@@bigsean2473 Yes, I seen it but the payoff is not there for the recoil for me as I have shot enough of 9mm and .40 and again for me as it might be worth it for you...I have not shot a 10mm before so I can't give my opinion....Again, my experience as yours may vary....
The 40sw's advantages are it fits in 9 mm size guns and has capacity extremely close to 9mm, while having a versatile grain size (100-200) for a range of applications that the 9mm cant like woods defense. 40sw is the balanced cartridge (out of all common pistol cartridges) in terms of power, capacity, gun size, recoil, and applications . In the lower 48, the 40sw satisfies everything from edc (fits in 9mm size guns with capacity extremely close to 9mm), home defense (has 200 grain hp subsonics for low penetration like 45 acp) to wood defense (200 grain hard cast. The 135 grain 40 sw at 1400 fps underwood ammo rivals the 125 grain 357 sig. The 155 grain to 165 grain has the right amount of mass to speed for hard barrier penetration like for windshields and car doors which is why LEO used 40sw. 9mm didnt have enough mass, and the 45 acp was too slow. 40sw was the perfect balance. People sleeping on the 40sw. lol
And 10mm does all of that better
A really interesting comparison would be the Underwood Hard Cast Vs an Underwood Extreme Penetrator Vs an Underwood Extreme Defender. 👍
ruclips.net/video/oVPPWM1TcuE/видео.html
Several years back a friend here in MT killed an adult sow grizzly with a .40 and 180 gr FMJ's. He hit her in the head, one shot snd dowm. He was VERY lucky IMHO.
And/or very good
@@AlaskanBallistics No. LUCKY. Not a Pistolero. LOL.
Both are almost similar so it would come down to how many accurate shots you can get on target. Recoil would probably effect that outcome.
Totally agreed 👍 thanks for watching and the comment. Godspeed and good hunting to you and yours.
"Dont get yourself killed with a .40"
I dont carry either yet but I do carry heavy. Point here is you can carry a pea shooter or a hard hitter.
For bear in a little handgun penetration is king. 40 might have made it to the vitals a 10mm fell short of. This proves ft lb and velocity ain't everything in the real world. Interesting results I've been doing some unscientific test in my back yard with 3.8 vs 4.5 10mms with this same load and it seems the 3.8 penetrates slightly better. The chrono has the 4.5 ahead by about 2% but penetration has been the opposite. For practical purposes I consider them equal. I never would have thought the 40 would do this good I might order some of this for my g22 and do some testing myself. On the other hand a little more expansion will kill quicker assuming penetration is deep enough. I'm not quiet sure what to think or which would be better for a grizzly? Wonder if the dinner plate flattens it more than a bear would or less?
40 made like half an inch more than the 10mm .. i don't you can fairly judge it iff this test alone
@@AlaskanBallistics Yeah me either. A interesting idea for a video would be something hard simulating a bear skull at a 45 degree angle maybe shoot through a piece of heavy gauge tin or something into ballistics gel with 357 mag, 40, 10mm, 45 super, 44 mag with underwood hard cast. It be interesting to see since some people say bullets glance off skulls at angles.
They don't bounce off, that was from old soft lead cowboy loads in the 1890s that got that reputation. But it would be good video.
FYI clear Ballistics gel is 225 bucks a block to ship up here. Not much cheaper to make it into huge blocks... patreon link is in the description lol 😁
I'll eventually make some more
.40 S&W will do just fine against black and brown bears with the correct ammo like the hardcast. But it's not my first choice.
Agreed
I got some 10mm ammo the other day it was federal trophy bond and it seemed very watered down the last couple box's I've got for 10mm from them seems slower than it used to be
And it was slow back then too!
I've got videos on it
@@AlaskanBallistics . Yeah my buddy is doing reloads for me I've heard a lot of people saying manufacturers are watering down their 10mm
Underwood is even doing it.
@@AlaskanBallistics . That's what I've heard, it's ridiculous people want 10 mil for the power. I was watching another channel and he said his underwood 10mm was weaker too
Good video. I've never found a reason to go with 10 over 40 (except personal preference) and this video just backs that up. But I shoot DoubleTap 200 gr hardcast cause they actually know how to load up rounds. Underpants ammo loads pretty weak rounds.
Ha the double tap i tried were very weak compared to Underwood
Underpants ... 😂
Great video Alaskan bro
Thanks
Slow and heavy always gives good penetration. This why the 45 70 does so well. For pistol carry on bear ID rather have a 44 mag with a long barrel.
Most people are carrying 10mm up here now because they can shoot it better
Of course 10mm faster more powder duh, and 1-2 hundred fps isn't that much greater either, no offense the 10mm is awesome and good for bear but the 40 s&w still kicks ass against any assailant or bad guy hands down
Luv ur vids. I'm a 10mm aficionado myself. EDC it every day, Luv it. Keep up vids, good stuff... 👍🏴☠️ I run B.B. 180gr xtp(800ish ft lbs) and 200gr hard cast btw.
Thank you very much!