2-10s Are Not Superior LPVOs (A Rant)
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- Опубликовано: 8 дек 2022
- Don't take this too serious. I get at least one rant yearly. I just want to comment on the current
trend of 2-10s
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Thomas Sowell has one of my favorite quotes. “There’s no perfect solutions, only trade offs.” Granted he was talking about public policy. But it’s applicable in optic selection too.
Pretty sure he was speaking generally as well. Man’s a national treasure.
I'm a simple man, I see a Sowell quote, I press like...
“LPVOs aren’t trash, you gear autist.”
-Thomas Sowell
--Probably
Nah, Mr. Sowell was specifically regarding small unit tactics as it pertains to a civilian militia and it’s arms. His cover as an “economist” is pretty good though.
Truths (philosophical Truths that start with capital T ) are applicable to a variety of situations and conditions. There are always exchanges of value
Therapist: Schizo Brock isn’t real, he can’t hurt you
Schizo Brock:
Brass Facts’ name is Brock? That’s badass…
@@thejdshipley These comments are where you come to find Brock Facts.
So what you're saying is.... centerline redot with offset 2.5-10x
Make it so...
Being a scope user, on various rifles, for almost 45 years, I've come to the conclusion that the a SFP 1-6 LPVO is likely the best that can be had today on a 5.56 GPR. Anything 500 yds and in is meat on the table, so to speak, for this set-up, which the very definition of a General Purpose Rifle. Sure a Red Dot is better for CQC out to near 200 yds, and a MPVO is better for anything north of 400 yds. But both are clearly in the SPR camp. Thanks for your video.
I agree. Most of my lifetime rifle shooting has been through a scope. RDS, while faster at close distances, still feels awkward to me in the rifle platform. I'm more tuned for a wire reticle/etched reticle any time it gets past 35-40 yds. Whenver I hoist a rifle with RDS my brain wonders how the pistol grew a stock and much longer barrel.
I really like Holosun 403G (w/ ACSS) + 3x magnifier -- but only when I'm using the magnifier. Compared to a P4Xi 1-4x? I'd rather turn the mag ring up to 4x vs flip the magnifier. I like the picture of the P4Xi at 1x vs the 403G. That ACSS reticle is magic with the magnifier, though. It's a really tough call between those two setups for best all-around IMO. If I were younger with younger eyes I'd easily prefer the 403G + magnifier.
i can only agree. im using 1-4 and 1-6 ones for the last 25+ years and im quite happy with the versatility. to now have this in sleek, high quality packages is just a dream.
why SFP?
Because you can't use the hash marks of an FFP scope below 5x for hold overs because they are too small to utilize. My rule of thumb for LVPO's: 1-6x SFP. 1-8 either SFP or FFP. 1-10 FFP @@SpartanC907
I agree I’m preferable to the 1-6 Second focal plane… people love ffp but I do the fact the reticle doesn’t change is nice as unles you are using bdc just zooming in is fantastic running it as 2x is also fantastic… the key to me is the light weight and ability to zoom quickly at different ranges then just flipping a magnifier. Also some magnifiers with red dot can get be heavier then a Lpvo or as heavy and prefer having the versatility over that setup and needing 1x not having a magnifier hanging off the side of your gun
The real solution is to find a group of guys to train with, choose a niche roll, and train to fill that role while maintaining the fundamentals.
not technically addressing the issue. but yes you should do that.
I have two 308 guys in my group so I just have short guns lol
Ummmmm... sounds like something my enlistment recruiter would have said... lol
Yeah as soon as disaster strikes this kind of shit doesn’t hold. People default to looking out for themselves and their families.
I’ve lived through hurricanes so I know this first hand. You can also read up on life in Sarajevo during the Yugoslav wars for further evidence of how things go when it all breaks down.
@@MellowFellowOfYellow complete breakdown isn't the only time "stuff goes down" 2020 and everything that happened down is evidence of that. There were protests within a half mile of my house, having buddies willing to come hang out was very comforting. Then having a support system of like minded individuals at the start of covid, well well worth having a network of trusted dudes.
Love that Ass Facts has hobo Hop as a screensaver.
Easter Egg status
As long as the LPVO 1x isn't too far off 1x and you have the ability to change dominance quickly, an LPVO works just fine. My eyes are so co-dominant that just blinking one changes my dominance to the other eye until I blink that other eye...
yeaaah, this is why im lefty.
@@BrassFacts I'm lefty also. I don't like how so many offset mounts require the rds on the right side. Give me a piggybacked dot for upright head positioning for home defense and nods stuff, and give me an lpvo for a redundancy 1x and more than usable magnification
@@TheGunNerdtrex arisaka mounts are reversible and 35°/45° and badger mounts are ambi. Regardless, all setups require training for methods of operation
@@M4c223c while true, offset dots aren't as good with nods as piggybacked dots
@@TheGunNerd training regimen. I found no issues with dominant eye single tube nods and passive aiming with offsets. Also no problem with piggy backed. I’ve come to the realization awhile ago……there is no “one setup”. There are mission driven setups. Obviously it’s hard to validate the “make every setup” in the civilian world because we don’t have a taxpayer funded load out room filled with everything but if you have the ability to blend every niche setup within the scale you can accommodate most scenarios fairly easy…….or you can be super rich and just buy everything lol
LPVOs aren’t dead, 1-10 I think are (funny because they were just born). A 1-6x is still a very good choice for a lot of capability in one package.
Agreed. 1x6 hits it out of the park when it comes to clarity at 1x and 6x. It's not perfect of course but it has quality where it counts and the cons are minimal.
Maybe it's just my eyes but I need magnification and a magnifier/dot setup was just not it, and 1x10 scopes I tested (at least a few years back) sucked at higher magnification, and lastly Scopes that don't have 1x are just overkill for me.
Idk, I've tried them out and my favorite overall setup that I'll grab if crap were to pop off is my rifle with the razor gen 2e 1x6.
@@Masta_E I agree with all you say. I’ve had the razor Gen 2 for a while. I’ve found the reticle to be lacking for anything past 300. You should look at the Steiner 1-6x coming to market. It’s reticle is the best for 1x thru 6x and I’m surprised it’s taken the market so long to offer something like it.
This is the kind of content I really appreciate. Excellent way to get across a perspective that gets easily lost in the world of best this and worst that. A lot of guys forget to address things with the context of a practical role, and get caught up in the assessment of "on paper" instead of actual application. Thanks man 👊🏻
Absolutely agree.
As a major ACOG and piggybacked red dot promoter this sparked a realization in me. I didn't get to properly use a piggybacked red dot until after I had already spent years point shooting in cqb because it was far faster than using the 4x ACOG if you were a decent point shooter. The way I (and most riflemen) got good at point shooting is by spending hours on the flat range taking aimed shots at cqb distances and building muscle memory. Over time we built muscle memory with the chin weld the more we point shot while looking over our scopes. I didn't fully realize how much training I had with the chin weld over most shooters. By the time I got an RMR on top of my ACOG I was still essentially point shooting just out to 50m now instead of only 20ish at max beforehand. Thats also why I didn't notice how much parallax the RMR had for a long time. I still stand by the piggybacked red dot having the most pros for me, but it takes a lot more training to get to that point than I fully realized. It does make it a bit easier too if you're a new shooter trying to learn to cheek weld with a piggy backed optic to choose an option with less parallax than an RMR.
That sort of "point shooting" became less common once everyone had at least a red dot, though, didn't it? It's a more defensive move than anything, isn't it? If you can be more precise you can be more efficient & effective. Point shooting is, at close distances, faster than 4x thru an ACOG and faster than irons as well. Faster than RDS though? That debate rages in the handgun world with only younger & newer shooters believing it's possible. Dedicated, refined irons shooters (of which there are many) are reluctant to embrace them -- but ask any who have!
@@seanoneil277 not everyone got a red dot, just IAR gunners which also had the 3.5x ACOG. Now the USMC is switching over to the 1-8x VCOG as standard issue to my understanding. Point shooting with a rifle is also a lot easy to do out to longer distances and more accurately than with a handgun. As for speed you should typically be in a stance to properly point shoot as you're clearing rooms so it is technically faster than a red dot since you don't have to sight in albeit not as accurate. In civilian life the chance of sending one or two stray rounds is way more serious than in an open warfare scenario so I'd still advise sighting in unless your attacker is practically withing melee range
@@buff34x Seems to me red dot is fastest and thus easiest for basic marksmanship training -- so quicker average success for each soldier. LPVO adds capability for those who have mastered their cheek weld and rifle mounting, but complexity for those who may struggle with such technique challenges. Not everyone's a natural athlete who picks things up quickly. Wonder if the capability is too much too fast? Is the training sufficient?
I can understand the ACOG + RMR being great if you've trained on the transitions and on the jaw weld (or no weld) side of the picture. For me, that would require a fair amount of training on piggyback but it's easier on 45deg offset.
@@seanoneil277 back a decade or so the SOP at my unit in the 82nd, Joes had M68s, and somewhere around the Team Leader or Squad Leader on up had ACOGs with no secondary red dot.
@@oldthink84 I think if you have trained to use 4x as your standard sight picture, you've probably got a young pair of eyes and a young brain, because it's not that easy to resolve close-quarters targets at 4x. Well, at least it's not for an old codger like me!
Thank you for the great optics content, instead of saying one is the best and others suck you actually go through the pros and cons with insane detail.
And by far your best thumbnail! 👍
Honestly, the simplicity of a red dot magnifier combo has really been growing on me. I prefer 1x when shooting under or at 300y, the magnifier is just for the fringe scenario that I have to shoot past that.
That’s exactly where I’ve lined up over the last year. LPVO’s are great for target ID past about 300yds, but for anything closer it’s not super fantastic. The eye boxes can be punishing and the eye relief is always less than a simple red dot + magnifier.
@@404DecadeNotAvailable Only lpvo I have is a strike eagle and the eye box is 100% punishing at 6x. Still probably the most optic you can get for 250$ on sale and 6x is more than enough for my 16 inch barrel.
@@404DecadeNotAvailablegod what shit tier LPVO are you using that the eye relief and eye box are worse than a magnifier?
Now that I've seen the Unity FTC, I'm willing to go that route.
No think about a not white target at 300y. Maybe there is movement in 300y behind a bush? Do you see a rifle without Magnifire? Is it a woman with a child or 3 guys with ak?
Regardless of video production quality/price/set up, your info has always been informative and good, Thanks sharing your knowledge!
This is your best video yet. 100% on all accounts.
I'm so tired of people calling their SPRs GPRs, and pretending that those two are the same
It's a 2020s thing. No matter what the reality is, people imagine that their label is everything.
This discussion definitely falls into the category that you and Hop talked about while drunk- the usefulness of low contrast language. Great perspective.
The best is it wasn't some keyboard warrior spread sheet genius "features comparison" that reveals only an obsessive's innumerable hours spent memorizing not just mfr specs and marketing puffery but every single online opinion on the item. So little actual observation about -- "well, it's supposed to be good at X, so I went and tried to do some X. Not just once, but many times doing X. Even went and competed with it, even though I'm not a racer/gamer, just to test the utility while doing X."
But there's a whole fleet of folks on the internet that are happy in their "niche of the week" chasing, and chattering about who's on top of the heap at mastering the niche-to-niche wave surfing. Sometimes I think reddit by itself sustains an entire mass of people doing this.
@@seanoneil277 I definitely appreciate the way he speaks about use-cases and scenarios in a way that’s targeted to civilians, veterans even, and not like content creators who treat their audience like operators. Not that I don’t watch or appreciate the ex-SOF guys, but it’s a bit more theoretical and “for fun” (for lack of a better phrase), as apposed to guys who do the kind of training and shooting that is about as applicable to us non-door-kickers as you can find.
@@mongolmar One thing I don't often see/hear in this discussion anywhere on the internet is, the main reason for piggyback RDS and high scope/optic mounts is for NODs and plate carriers. The great majority of AR rifle owners are not likely to be mil/leo paid warriors, so why emulate people and gear limitations that just don't apply?
I don't own or use plates or NODs so why would I set up my rifle like someone who does?
Absolutely love the message around trends and avoiding making purchasing decisions based on them. You need to critically think about your situation and what you will work for you. In my environment, rural northeast US, I will never be making a 600m shot on a human being. Even if the Cuban paratroopers landed tomorrow, I would have a difficult time finding a 600m corridor for a shot. Trees, hills, homes, and 1,000 other obstacles will make sure of that. Average deer shot here is well under 100yds. A 200yd shot is a once in a lifetime fluke worthy of local new stories. The sight lines are just not that long anywhere around here. Magnification really only does 1 thing for me in this environment - helps with PID. The pitfalls of an LVPO or dedicated magnified optic are not worth living with simply for the extremely low percentage chance I need 6-10x on my weapon (and not a dedicated observation device like binos.) A red dot, for 90% of shots I would potentially be taking, and a magnifier for help with low percentage shots and PID is a way better option.
I'd argue if the news still exists; you probably don't want to be taking long shots with a AR to begin with. This isn't discussing that context
@@BrassFacts Agree 100%. Definitely on the same page there. My only point was folks should be realistic in their choices. Even if they’re building a GPR. If your environment or situation dictates a vast majority of potential , say, “use of force incidents” won’t benefit heavily from magnification then is it really worth the negatives that come along with dedicated magnified optics? Probably not. Probably a magnifier will do ya.
Another low-cost "training" supplement you hit on here.. hunting.
Your motion and noise discipline will get on POINT. You learn to shoot under increased stress. You become intimately familiar with the area you need to be training in already. I have swapped over to "stalking" just for the extra legwork. If you can move through the woods without your critter hearing and spotting you, that bodes well for you. It is NOT all inclusive. It is NOT real training. However there was a reason that back in the big wars the country bumpkins did quite well.
Plus you can eat your practice. That part is nice.
I noticed immediately on piggybacking my RMR that it was simply NOT the same. There's a noticeable difficulty in just having it where you want it with any kind of movement compared to your "centerline" placement. You're right on that. Might end up back on the LPVO train for my main rifle. ACOG and piggybacked RMR is excellent, but I still just LOVE my LPVOs...
I love that at the end of one of the BEST videos you've made... you comment how horrible this video is. I know from a production value, scripting, and "giving them what they want" perspective it might have been bad, but from a "giving them what they need" perspective this was amazing. Many of us armchair warriors (including myself) can get lost in looking for strict "upgrades" without realizing the trade offs.
This is probably your best video in a long time. I typically listen to videos and treat them like podcasts because only certain things I actually need to see during a video. But the information you put out is good.
Nah dude, you had better do this type of video again, I enjoyed it. I have been digging a lot of your vids lately, and you bring a pretty unique and well thought out perspective on different topics. Your MRO video helped me to sell mine and pick up an ACSS cyclops as a placeholder until I can nab an ACOG RMR combo.
What I would really love to see is a scope actually designed from the ground up for a piggybacked optic. Something where the red dot is sitting at that 1.93"-2.26" that allows for quick effective heads up shooting, but no so high that your head is practically coming off the stock.
That would mean having to move the elevation adjustment out of the way, either angled, or directly opposite the windage turret rather than sitting on top
Maybe have the scope mounted as low as possible and do something like the D-EVO did the rear lens angled slightly upward, so that you can shift your view between the magnified optic and red dot without having to move your head, just shift your eyeline. Without that weird zigzag design meant to look around a red dot, I think that concept would work a lot better
Firstly, Brass, love your stuff. Secondly, the fact i started with Firstly means I'm old (in relative terms). I'm on my second LPVO. The first was a P4XI, now I'm on to the SAI 1-6 FFP. Anyone with an astigmatism (even minor) is going to appreciate a good LPVO, particularly an illuminated etched reticle rather than a projected dot atop the etch. The addition of a diopter is a game changer. I've purchased, and still have, a T2 and an EOTech EXPS3. Once I purchased the P4XI, I didn't look back. The diopter solved my red dot / holo sight problems, even though the P4XI is a projected dot. Be prepared to spend time and/or money while focusing on weight and glass quality, then you are good to go in LPVO land. Most of us don't need heavy military spec optics, and, personally, I choose to avoid 1 - 10 and 1 - 8. Too many compromises, which in the end, give the LPVO a bad reputation.
Thanks for this I often see all these RUclips gun guys talking about how you don't need a bunch of magnification and they're all mostly young guys with really good eyes. I had exceptional vision far above average until I was about 28 and then I went to not bad vision but not great really fast. I've had even normal AR irons cause my eyes to do a weird unfocused thing where I get double vision. Which site picture do I pick? And in that I have found that even at a couple hundred yards I want a little bit more than 9 power a lot of the time. And yes there is some truth to the high quality huge field of view that you can get with a low zoom ratio or no zoom ratio. But at the end of the day there's not a substitute for reasonably clear glass and decent magnification. I'm not talking about $2,000 optic quality Glass I'm talking about 2 to 400. That's the kind of price range where it starts to get to where I can easily see what I'm shooting at and shoot it. Everything above that is nice but it's just extra.
I feel like people miss the point of optics as being a tool fitted to you to what you're trying to do. Where I am everything is sort of colored about like a coyote and my eyes are tired. I need a bit more help than your eyes might need. So I would take that one to eight or one to 10x lvpo even though I know it's going to hurt me on the eye box and also in the field of view at Max zoom.
I agree, older eyes almost always means stronger Rx and likely astigmatism. I like the P4Xi but my eyes aren't sharp enough to use it confidently on smallish targets at 300+. The SAI looks good on brightness of glass & reticle but the reticle's X w/ bullets messes with my brain. Delta Stryker might be good, I'm too cheap for $1k+ scopes.
Recently watched all of your videos and these are by far the best. More please
I fell into the LVPO trend, and quicky realized that they weren't for me. I pretty happy with my ACOGs, but would like to try an Elcan.
There is no such thing as the perfect rifle optic. There are always comprises that need to be addressed when selecting an optic for your rifle. You brought up some very key points. Thanks for sharing.
Just my 2 cents.
Big fan of LPVOs. They are the jack of all trades, master of none of the optic world (for 5.56). They can be used up close, but not as good as a red dot. They can be used at far distances, but not as good as a 2-10 scope.
I prefer an offset red dot vs standard mounted red dot when standing and shooting. I have better recoil control tilting the rifle over 35 degrees. For crouched or prone, offset or 12 oclock mounted red dots are very difficult to use. I prefer 1.93 scope mounts so 12 oclock red dot mounting really isnt an option since I am not a giraffe. Never understood why people shit on the 1x power for LPVOs. Yeah, it isnt as good as a red dot, but it is better than iron sights. For 5.56, if you are constantly wanting more than 6 power magnification, you should probably go to 308 or 6.5 as a 6 power scope is completely adequate out to 400 meters. Beyond 400 meters, regardless of barrel length, 556 is not a good option.
I have run red dot magnifier setups and just do not like them. I find on overcast days with targets being somewhat hidden in the environment around them, it is hard to identify them if I did not know where the target was before hand. Also the glass quality on magnifiers is pretty bad.
As far a civilian GPR is concerned ,I think a red dot is the ticket for most use cases. Which will generally be close range. Running check points. Clearing your house/yard when you hear a bump in the night etc. Keep a magnifier in a GP pouch on your kit for those times you need medium range option. Supply runs, etc. 95% of us are not going to be doing “WRECKIEEEEEEEEEE” missions or offensive ops. We need to stop lying to ourselves about how badass we are.
Do not “clear” your yard.
That’s a great way to get shot by some dumbass cop.
@@ArmorDoge I dont live in a city. Im not calling the cops if I hear a bump in the night. Would take them 10-15 minutes to respond. First I would need to identify how many legs the said bump in the night had before I would waist their time
Should have 2 guns. 1 red dot gun in 5.56 for house. 1 AR10 for everything 'wreckie' stuff long range.
Some people live in the middle of the country where every sightline outside their house is hundreds of yards.
@@gbear34 understandable. In that case you dont want a GPR. You want a DMR or SAPR
This was probably the most coherent internet rant I’ve heard in a while. You are dead right though.
I just realized that you're about to hit 50k subs! Congrats man! Wasn't that long ago that this was a tiny channel
these were some great points, especially about understanding what your tradeoffs are and what you should realistically be training for
This all to lead up to his next video. “Why red dots with magnifiers are superior”
The exciting conclusion to the 3 part series...
though I'm not really that big a fan of RDS+mag.
I definitely think their not ideal for some situations but my train of thought is more people in more situations will find them to have better performance for their use cases.
Best 1x and the ability to have a compromised but still capable 3x
But not everyone has the same needs or wants I have
@@BrassFacts part 4 is buy elcan
@@RenoMay unironically, that video is already scripted.
@@BrassFacts can we have a RD + Magni video with your experience and thoughts?
I like rants like this, with no real script you can go on tangents that provide more insight and thoughts than you normally would
Great video. I think the discussion is one worth having. I was a fan of 2-10x scopes before they were cool. The Vortex Viper 2 model has always been a guilty pleasure. Kinda like a scooter. It's fun to ride, but you don't want anyone to see you on one.
An LVPO 1-6x is definitely the sweet spot for building a "Do-it-all" rifle.
I have owned three Acogs. Every time I sell one I miss it six months later. Hard to beat the Acog for simplicity of use, light weight and rugged durability.
Side note I am really enjoying your channel.
You're thinking, challenging ideas, and working towards solutions in a non-confrontational manner. Keep it up.
Non confrontational manner? He says the purpose of his rifle
Is to shoot humans..I mean come on..talking about home defense is one thing but talking about shooting humans at hundreds of yards isn’t exactly what I’d call non confrontational. There is basically zero reason any civilian would need to shoot a human at more those ranges and while I am a fan of long range marksmanship saying yeah I practice to shoot PEOPLE is pretty stupid and only gives the anti gunners more ammunition to attack the 2.
Stupid boomer opinion. You missed the entire point of the original comment and managed to make yourself look like a fudd in the process.
@@highoctanehotrodthis channel isn’t for home defence
Don't you dare NOT produce more videos like this, this honest, down-to-earth truthful rant is what we needed to hear. Shooting 7.62x39 and with good eyes, a red dot will be fine for me out to 200/250 or so. New to magnification, I bought the PA ACSS 1-6 to reach out comfortably to my realistic distance of 300 yards and in. It's a great scope, it's a fantastic scope. The scope is much better than I am and it's me who will always need more training with it, not the other way around. There is certainly a place for LPVO's. Like my Suzuki DR-Z400 dual sport motorcycle....an LPVO will cover/do everything good, but nothing great. Another great video Mr. Brass Facts.
""an LPVO will cover/do everything good, but nothing great" i think that's it.
for a general weapon this is what you want. if you start going more niche, you can always adapt. (cqc and long range).
Fantastic video! It is not about how flashy a vid is, it is about the info in the vid. You nailed it in my opinion!
Awesome video dawg, personally went with the 1-8 ATACR and couldn’t have been happier, eventually going to throw on a 12 o’clock T2 or P2 on it for passive aiming on nods
Fixed 10! Fixed 10!
I respect that you're getting a video out each week. you're on a budget and it's ok to give us a less produced video every now and then.
I'm one of the people pushing for mpvo as the real solution. I respect you and you're definitely responsible for pushing a narrative that LPVO suck that goes beyond your viewership because your viewers are spreading that across the internet. Not blowing smoke, you're a trend setter. it's probably a good idea to make sure your advice isn't twisted. looking through your channel someone could definitely come to the conclusion that you are reviewing lpvo with the intention to actually prove they suck. so, good on you to center us back.
The next generation of PA 2-10 needs a lower profile top turret so that it better suits to trying to run a piggyback dot as low as possible.
The "Do it all" scope of 2022 is the "Do it all" CQB long range 16" .308 12" 6.8 SPC EOTech magnifier of 2008
I'm personally ready for the "back to basics" lightweight, red dot, no buis, plastic handguards, no weapon light patrol rifle to make a comeback...
@@forktheporkI swear it makes a comeback every year but it doesn't have staying power
I'm a simple man, I see a Brass Facts notification, I immediately hit the Thumbs Up 👍
💯
Shoutout to that boi Risky Chrisky and 'em too
Love the shoutout for Chrisky. Great content all around from both yal. 👏🏽
You and Risky Chrisky are some of the most underappreciated Pewtubers! 👍👆✌💯
Based on your review, and that of others, I put a PA 2.5-10x44 GLx Griffin Mil (say that 10x really fast) on an 18 inch AR-10, which I consider my primary working rifle. I can't afford to shoot as much as I would like to, but I carry this rifle in the field a lot. It goes with me on day hikes with the dogs, I hunt with it. So my experience with this set up is very much off the square range and applicable to the primary purpose of the rifle, and I have thus far been very impressed with it. I took a couple deer with it this season, and it was straightforward doing so. I can't say that a LPVO wouldn't have been able to accomplish most of what I do with it, and there is certainly a lot of overlap in capabilities. But the 2-10 power range in a compact scope with the right reticle will serve most people pretty well once they get outside. I like have real scope function on a real rifle. LPVOs and prism scopes might be fine on 5.56mm carbines, but if you seek out the capability to reach and touch beyond standard infantry distances, you might want the functionality of real optics to go with the power and accuracy of your rifle. I used an RCO on a A4 in the Marines, and I tried a TA-11 on a 16 inch AR-10 for a while, and it always left me wanting more once ranges opened up to more than 300 yards. I guess if I get into a gunfight in an elevator, the AR-10 might not be the best choice, but for most of my work, it does just fine with the 2.5-10 Primary Arms on it. So it may not be a solution to every problem, but it will take care of most of them. My suggestion is that one consider the intended use of their rifle and the circumstances they foresee themselves in, get the best gear they can afford, and then get out in the field with it so they know how it is going to work for them. Too many people shoot some on the square range and consider their shit squared away.
Have your feelings on the TA33 with piggybacked RMR changed? I seem to remember that you suggested with that setup the high RDS acts as the primary and the ACOG is a secondary optic for when magnification is necessary. I'm messing around with similar setups so I appreciate the rants, thanks.
I dig the stream of consciousness. Your camera dying mid stream of consciousness brought back painful memories of college philosophy essays where my laptop dying set me back a solid 8 hours because I couldn’t get back in the groove. Good shit dawg, thanks.
There are two steps to selecting an optic setup.
1. Decide what you need to meet your requirements, and what you can accept as a tradeoff, and prioritize the needs vs tradeoffs during optic selection.
2. Train.
I like LPVOs but I use the 2-10x MPVOs because they fit my needs, requirements, and training with the least tradeoffs.
I grew up using 3-9x scopes for hunting 100 yards and in, and naturally developed the ability to switch eye dominance for both weak side shooting, and scanning and aiming. It works for me, and one can train for it. But an LPVO makes it easier.
What works for one doesn't work for everyone.
Train with your gear, and you'll be miles ahead of most people.
My thoughts exactly. I use a a TA110 (holdover from my extensive use of the RCO in the Army) because it meets most of my needs, has the least trade off's, and I built up the training to use it properly. Most people just buy/sell their optics too fast before it's even meets those standards or don't train with them enough.
@@MegaAndy93 on another rifle, I rock the PA 3x micro, because of the adjustable diopter over an acog. I use it when I need a light rifle that will mostly be carried.
The GLX 2.5-10x is a good general use for my area. Hunting deer, invasive ground squirrels, and shooting the small predators that harass the animals.
I train with all, because you never know what might happen when you happen to only have access to one.
@@CameronCrouse 2.5-10x GLX is on my .308 Deer/Hog gun but works well as a DMR as well so it's all about what your purpose is for the rifle. Not every rifle/gun you own needs to have the gucci gear.
@@MegaAndy93 Agreed.
My older non AR rifles still rock irons or old 3-9s. The ARs get built for relatively general purposes, each with a nod towards more specific niches, but can be forced into another role in a pinch.
Next AR is gonna be a fun one. Either 20" or 11.5" with a fixed carry handle 😀
3. See 2
Reads title... heresy
Watches video... heresy
Looks through my LPVO... heresy
Look at mirror and screeches like the thing... normalcy and clarity
I started getting into rifles a few years ago.... I'd come across your's and other's videos, and flip through them cherry picking my favorite parts.... now, I find myself going back and watching your videos in their entirety.... I appreciate your perspectives and reasoning. For a younger guy, youve got some really good rifle/ prepper wisdom.
My latest endeavor is finding the optimal scope for my 18" general purpose/ SPR build.... I thought it was gonna be the Leupold Mark V 2X10X30, but your logic here is really pushing me to the KAHLES K18i 1-8x24i....
Great video....
Keep um coming amigo 🤙
I had caught your original video on LVPO scopes. While I understood the reasons it seemed to miss the close range targetting which is a big reason I was looking at an LVPO. I have a RDS on my AR15 and a LVPO 2nd FP on my AR10. With my vision I've been trying to figure out how to balance short distance and beyond for optics, and considering the two optic solution. Good to see you reconsider the LVPO, though I think a FFP version would be best since you can use the reticle through the entire magnification range. That is one issue I was thinking about with the one I have, since you can have too much magnification in the close to intermediate range. Especially considering the 1-8x and 1-10x scopes that are available and the price difference between a 2FP and A FFP are not a huge difference on some of the mid($500?) priced scopes.
I’ve seen this trend pick up a lot of steam in a short amount of time online and I came to the same conclusion you did in this video. It’s nice knowing I’m not alone in my logic.
This is a GREAT video format for you. Sorry it took me a few weeks to get caught up.
I think the industry trying to push the envelope past the laws of physics with 1-10 FFP LPVOs is driving this current debate. We had the LPVO figured out with the 1-6 SFP designs and fiber optic illuminated center dots. If 6x isn't enough for the range of a 5.56 carbine, that means that scope has shitty glass and more needs to go into the piggy bank. I don't know anyone with a Vortex Razor 1-6 bitching about shooting it at 1x. I'm sure the same can be said with other high end 1-6 SFP designs. I agree with Brass Facts, if the 1x on your budget LPVO sucks to shoot with, you should have gone with a red dot. In my opinion, don't bother with an LPVO unless you can afford one made by Light Optical Works in Japan at the minimum.
Love the format, good salient points. 8/10, good rant
Risky Chrisky & Brass Facts collab/bromantic comedy when? ❤️
ive never been a fan of offset dots, for multiple reasons like you have mentioned. pick an optic that does 80% of what you need it to really well, and deal with the not so much ideal 20% part of it.
Thanks, I feel like I just got a dad talk.. you literally describe my whole rifle journey, I built it really great general purpose but had been enjoying longer range changed caliber from 7.62x39 which I trialed and found Barnaul 123 to group best for me and be economical, put about 1500rd through it like this then went to 6 arc which I ultimately found atleast in my set up doesn't even group as well even if in theory it has vastly superior performance at range.. further more I find I can't afford to shoot it as much and keep as much on hand... While right now I have 1500rd of 7.62 still staring at me.. a note with this I broke a couple extractors running all the steel case, I finally got one that was seriously more robust infact (I'm a machinist and CNC programmer) it was significantly over sized out of the box to where this extractor wouldn't jump the rim to go into battery and I had to hand work it in but now it's eaten over 1k steel rds without any noticable issue and I bought spares once It proved itself... My point being I put alot of effort into having a great (for me) general purpose rifle with lpvo and I recently realized I was going down the path of sacrificing it towards longer/medium range was even looking at 2x10 scopes, not because any internet hype but exactly as you described.. so I offer my solution, I'm going to put together a budget 300win mag bolt gun that I can scratch the long range itch with and somewhat justify for a potential elk hunt one day, meanwhile saving my general purpose rifle as it should be... Cheers
“I don’t have the self control not to post”. That was awesome.
-CQB fighting will get you clapped, but every channel I see today is doing it as the “Be all training and Be all rifle setups”. Thank you for not having the control and posting your views - Great video.
I have run a razor 1-6 for years. For most people, they don’t shoot enough to understand SFP vs FFP. FFP is really only useful for people who actually use the power in between 1 and Max. The reticle and the weight drove me to look to some of the newer options. I was able to shave 12 oz off the top of my gun, and even if I add an offset dot/mount, I’m still half a pound lighter. The reticle also allows for rapid adjustments through a Christmas tree reticle.
But I also have my short gun/suppressor with a red dot, an optional magnifier and my Tacom HQ Alpha. I’ve been able to take the newest shooter and just tell them hold center until 300, then flip the alpha up and they can hit at 4 and 500 without holding in space. Where am I going with this - I can hand my wife who has very little training the gun with red do and she will do just fine. While I have enough time/knowledge to fill maximize a FFP LPVO (and an enclosed offset dot). But I will also say that shooting under nods offset can be done, but sucks donkey.
I won’t try to have the conversation about primary red dot AND offset red dot. People get big mad there
I wonder about people who insist on FFP at 6x, 8x, 10x top end. I want to ask them, "tell me about the scenario where you are at 1x, have to go to a mid-magnification setting, and STILL insist on using the reticle's hashmarks/indices. What is that scenario? How does it play out?"
@@seanoneil277 you lose field of view depending on magnification, so not always using the full power of your scope is a real thing. That’s why reticles like the h59/tremor etc were created. The ability to engage targets rapidly without dialing and being at any magnification is proven. Having a mil based reticle that is true at any power is much more useful than a BDC on a SFP scope
@@ajsomp The real point of a Tremor, from my POV, is for people who lack spatial awareness and need a "graph paper" reticle to orient their sense of things. Why they can't picture a simple right angle from hash marks on the horz and vert axes is a mystery to me. To me all those index points are visual clutter, not aids to my accuracy. But I'm not a mil/leo sniper nor a PRS competitor.
In what setting is an LPVO with 1-8x or 1-10x FFP plus Tremor going to be more effective than a 1-4x or 1-6x SFP with a hashmark set you can use at max power only? I can't imagine it but that may be due to my lack of experience or imagination.
great rant video haha! I love your rants!
So, if I had set up a 16" .308 w/ a 2.5-10 PA Raptor FFP with a bipod, should I trade it in for a SFP Sig Tango MSR 1-6 for my Recon/SPR? I was planning for that squad position with support.
Of course you troll us with the Elcan, love these discussions brother!
I once asked a group of people if they thought shooting was a martial art. The did not. The more in depth and technical videos I find though, I’m kinda thinking that’s bullshit. I love the technical shooting stuff BrassFacts is doing.
My favorite gun tuber back again
When I decided on my optic I asked myself what features I wanted in a sighting system based off gripes I had shooting in the past. I found the razor 1-10 checked all my boxes and went with that. Yes it has it's drawbacks, but I don't notice them because It does what I want it to do. Now if only I could decide on a barrel length I like.
😂😂 14.5 is the master race! Jk i have bought almost every different option available and have just settled on a 14.5. It’s big enough but not too big.
Mommy... please make uncle Hop stop starring at me....
Wonder how a center red dot with an offset magnified optic would work? Only one I can think of was the Leupold D evo, but for the price it seemed like that flopped pretty hard.
Speaking of risky, do the gundies have a category for best fed bait?
I'm literally torn between a GLx 2.5-10x44 with an offset red dot vs a PLx-c 1-8x24 for my POF P415 Edge 16.5" 5.56...cost is within $2-300 and it's an all purpose, HD, SHTF, medium distance max 700 MAYBE 800 yard gun every few months at the 1000 yard range I have access to.
This video was great, prioritizing making the use of this gun in a HD or practical defense situation is a higher priority than a better eyebox at 10x for a once in a blue 7-800 yard shot and then having to purchase and train with a 45 degree red dot sight.
The heads up position behind the centerline of this gun is what's most natural and removing that decision of which to look thru in which situation is a great point...even though shooting past 600 yards may be a bit more of a challenge...I'll take that vs sacrificing the practicality of the gun in a defense situation...Primary Arms PLx-c 1-8x24 it is! 🍻
Hello, I have a random thought and random curiosity...if lpvo do not have good 1x... What if you use red dot + magnifier and a second magnifier to achieve a jury rigged lvpo... Does that even work? Does I relieve make it impossible to see through both magnifier? If there were a way line it up perfectly... How clear/unclear would the visual be?
Good video, credit to BF for always analyzing, refining the conclusions, and putting out all around well thought out stuff. I tend to agree, fun purposes/competition aside, if you’re not in a SPR position on a team, why are you set up with an SPR that would give you shortcomings as a non SPR guy doing non SPR things?
Thanks for a thought provoking video. I have returned to AR ownership after a long break, and I chose the Athlon Talos 1-4 SFP with a MIL reticle for its versatility and what I consider lack of compromises for the price. I should be well equipped from close up out to 400, and could manage beyond that on appropriate targets with the MIL reticle. I was going for a GP setup, and I feel I have a good one. Next build will probably be a lightweight setup with a Primary Arms microprism… old astigmatism eyes don’t like red dots.
About the offset pos/neg, and offset vs piggyback -- Tight corners in USPSA stages = superior case for offset red dot. Top PCC shooters run main rail RDS, and at least one offset RDS, for those tight corners. Some run symmetric offsets.
The real restriction in MPVO is that bottom end >1x in a situation that needs 1x so you can't look through that natural aim cheek weld, so what do you do?
I find rolling to 45deg offset strong-side is super fast. Would I run one with an LPVO that has a great 1x? Only if I was sadistic enough to run a PCC match with LPVO and the stage(s) had tight corners. I'd add +offset RDS, I'd run a P4Xi + 507C if the match had enough tight corners to challenge even the P4Xi. But I'm not a serious gamer, I just use it for training. So I stick with RDS which is the best close-quarters for speed. The P4Xi is damned nice for a scope-body optic at 1x but it's not quite as fast.
If people are setting up MPVO + offset/piggyback RDS and they intend to use that rifle for 0-100/150yds and in, realistically speaking, they're handicapping themselves. Get a PCC, set it up with that optic setup, and go do a USPSA PCC match and see if you find it a great combo there. That will tell you how smart is your choice for your actual real use case. Home defense at 400yds is an odd fantasy to chase.
Just tell me what optic to put on my general purpose rifle. I’m leaning towards a Trijicon 1-6 V-Cog
That's why my .308 BR has a 1-6, being able to acquire my targets at 1x at close/medium ranges is invaluable for a DMR/BR. Although I'm considering a red dot magnifier for my 13.7 GPR
I was one of those commenting about why even LPVO. Thanks for making this video. I may be in the minority but production quality is way over rated in most cases
The last 4 weak points I found in my kit weren’t optics. Helmet, optic mount, glasses, ammo failed. My 70% optics are doing fine. Ask the deer.😂
Great content, keep it up.
I can't decide between a Viper PST 1-6x or an Eotech 512 & Vmx3T Magnifier combo for my AK, which will I regret the least?
Not sure you’ll even see this comment. I had this exact same struggle with prioritizing Centerline Aiming that I went nuts and ordered a Chinese knock-off of the Leupold D-EVO to match with my EOTech XPS. This gave me a perfect Holo for 1x, and a BIFOCAL 6x static scope that was IN-LINE with the EOTech. It was perfect because I didn’t have to adjust my sight picture OR aiming at all. Just look down slightly to line up the static optic. If the damn thing had actually moved when I adjusted the height and windage, I’d be rocking that now and making videos about how it’s the True King of optics setups.
So for now, I’m back to XPS + 3x mag, and looking to trade someone to get a 5x mag.
Great video and great process of walking us through the Pros and Cons of each setup.
Terrible idea or not, I think it was time well spent. I’m currently practicing with an LPVO and thinking that’s the best option when I need some close range but would like magnification for threat ID. As you said, things won’t be standing out like a 3gun shoot to plink at, and in my area I’m honestly using the magnification to better spot them rather than a need to shoot accurately.
I have astigmatism in both my eyes so it’s what led me to purchase my Vortex 1x6 with a etched reticle. Oh, I love it! It lets me see clearly up close and at distance. Plus living in the middle of Florida. I won’t be taking super long distance shots.
For an unscripted rant this was pretty thorough. I'd love to mention two things that I like a little more coverage on; though I think you probably would have gotten there had this kept going. I don't see height over bore, and memorizing two serperate zeros demonstrated much when people talk dots and optics. People don't seem to grasp you have to come out of cover to the point where your muzzle clears your cover. That might mean exposing yourself an extra two inches for that added optic height. Or completely abandoning a position because of sighting issues. And then the complicated nature of two separate calculations for zero on your optic setup. I get the feeling people think that an added dot is "almost the same" as a centerline dot, not realizing they're almost completely different concepts of shooting. The relationship between the dot and the rifle have drastically changed.
Why is hop trapped in your computer screen, he is usually only trapped in mine.
he likes to stretch his digital legs.
i love your vids!!
1 point though. I have been using a canted reddot that isn't a full 45 degree, and I don't really see the problems that you noted in the video. Though leaning to the left of a cover does present more of your body, I find it to be about the same. Furthermore, the chicken wing thing is barely noticable if i'm using a 30-35 degree throw. anyways good vid!
It doesn't make sense to me to "prefer" (for me) the piggyback just because my strong side arm chicken wings when I roll the rifle, and thereby "exposes" more of me as a target. Every move is a compromise of what you "expose" and what you gain. If you are faster and more accurate rolling the rilfe 45deg, then that's the thing to do. Whether nature's situation or the man-made environment forces your hand to compromise, you can ponder that all day. None of us, not even the most paranoid autist, can imagine every scenario. The worst thing internet chatter obsesses over is the endless "what if?" scenarios people think they'll encounter. And from their computer, not from their actual use of the setup in various positions during practice.
What are your thoughts on a 2-10 and 45° flip up iron sights
Hey dude , can you tell me what height you prefer your lvpo mounts? I feel like 1.93 or whatever is too high but I don't have first hand experience
Good job man. I refer to micro dots as supplementary optics. I host combat rifle matches in southeast Ohio. My favorite thing to do is put unpainted targets in brush. I'm starting to see a lot of similar setups. Most common a 1x8 with a top MRDS ans some 2x10 3x18 setups. We engage targets from 5 to 500 yards. Most stages incorporate physical task aswell as shooting.
Which setup do you see as the most successful at these events?
@@HariboStarman the top 4 guys use slightly different setups.Vortex 1x10 with a 14.5 with a arisaka 45 offset RMR / trijicon credo 2x10 on a 14.5 top mounted RMR. 16 inch primary arms PLX 1x8 top mounted MPS. And 1 guy uses a 18 inch barrel 2x15 credo with top mounted RMR.
A few honorable mentions would be the 2.5 x10 primary arms and the 1x8 strike eagle.
@@HariboStarman sorry for the book. If I was to build a setup for the match. I would go with a 16 inch barrel a PLX compact and a top mounted steiner MPS.
Spot on! Everything is a compromise... The best thoughts usually come out when there is rambling
I just subscribed. Great content.
Is it so much to ask for an LPVO to have some minimum of adjustable parallax?
All I want is parallax adjustment from 50-200 yards in a 1-8x scope. Is that so much?
I've got my prism mounted somewhat low on the rail (high cheekbones are handy) so once I get a red dot on top it shouldn't be too much of a chin weld. We'll see but I'm hopeful.
Feels like I've been hearing more complaints about micro red dot parallax recently than usual. Are any certain ones significantly better than others for this?
I think what people are calling "parallax" on micro RDS is really people that haven't trained on RDS and are finding the smaller window a limitation. And in an offset scenario a micro (like Holosun 407k/507k) may be a too-small window for a lot of folks. This is my POV from using 507k and 509 sized RDS on handguns, and the limits of the smaller window there. I've got way more hours behind pistol RDS than rifle, and I still prefer wire/etched reticle on rifle. So that may affect my perspective. I don't think I'd like microRDS as offset on rifle because it's slightly slower to find the dot with the smaller window.
It looks somewhat bulky, but the tube sights like Holosun 403/Aimpoint Micro may be a good offset for some folks. The tube can draw the eye a bit better than a 509 or 507k window.
People worry too damn much about what "the best" anything is.
Especially guntube lol
Edit: post video and some digestion, this is a good video (I thought so when I posted too, tbf lol)
Also making me re-neg my optics setup on my "SPR" haha. GPR is keeping the 1-4 TR24 because of my shitty eyes though lol
This is IMO one of your most interesting videos is a while.
If you have a high quality optic, it will do the job. It’s not the scope, it’s the shooter. Unless you got some Amazon trash. All the different types of optics have their place. I like LPVO, Dots, Holographic and magnifiers. I personally am not a fan of ACOG or offset/12 o’clock mount backup dots. Thus I don’t run them. Just practice what you have and if your freinds have a similar setup you’d like to try, if they aren’t clowns, they will let you try it. If you like it do it, if not, don’t chase the trend. Some of these guys get free stuff all the time so you will never be able to afford keeping up unless you sell your last thing…Great video!
Gotta like the desktop wallpaper!
There's a lot here, and it's really good.
If we take a quick look of some data for 5.56 for the civilian able to own stuff, our 55gr m193 clones are good to around 500yds and m833 a little further with a 20inch (which we all mostly have 16inch with SBR being behind it we can bring those ranges down a little. Based on the 260ftlbs for lethality measurement that k think the Army used to determine effective range) 500yds for a GP rifle, I'd want more, but a x4 serves well enough here.
Now throw environment into this equation. We go guerilla mode we end up in the woods for most Americans as that's what we love mostly by. I'd be hard-pressed to find enough clearing for that long of a shot. Now the mountains are different, but that's why we don't try to use balds and peaks.
So if the majority of us are going to be shooting 500 yards at max but majority inward theoretically. Then, a x4 is good for a GP, and the elcan being an elcan is a beast in that regard.
On a side note. The piggy back sucks but the canted doesn't feel bad and easier to train yourself into. Most of the SF guys I knew rocked an LPVO to x6 or x8 and kept it around x4 to scan when they came out of a building. They'd use the extra zoom to make out more detail or maybe get a shot. Mostly kept at x4, though.
Disoriented my thoughts because I'm at work, but a GP rifle will be partly determined by your location, but for the majority of us, a x4 is good enough.
I built a 14.5 “gpr” with a 2.5-10 and quickly realized that offset dots are way harder to use than I thought they would be. The rifle is great for stationary shooting, but everything else kinda sucks with it. I much prefer my 11.5 w/ a dot for everything else.
Good rant bud. I spy an Athlon BTR gen2 2-12, hope to see some content on that guy. Also I hope that ppl spend time thinking, learning and training on how NOT to get into enguagments inside of 200yrds/mts. Learn about more recon SMUT roles, in the context of being behind enemy lines with now backup or resupply.
I love the hop cameo in the bottom right