Civilian METT-TC (And Its Pitfalls)
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Buy the last of the patches so I can stop watching the ship page like a hawk
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A podcast discussion with Hoplopfheil where we touch upon the emergence of hyper specific rifles.
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As someone who went through a SHTF situation living in Puerto Rico when hurricane Maria hit taking us almost 6 months with no power, months without running water, no cell service, little to no police presence for a month or so, some gangs roaming, my rifles stayed most of the time at home or the most concealable one in the vehicle with me for super long lines or out at night for supplies. running around with it would have attracted to much attention. Then again this is tropics and a island so not go-bag scenarios to head somewhere, no long open ranges. A handgun, extra mags, med, water and coms in a sling bag was my go-to for months in lines trying to buy water, 8hrs lines at some point for gas, neighborhood watches with other neighbors a concealed handgun was king and the rest of the gear in a small bag so I could keep it with me available. Some times I did had an AR but it was in the vehicle where I could reach it between the driver and center console away from view but easy to pull out if a gang came in to rob people in the line (it happened to some). Long story short I think AO plays a lot, for me here maybe a PDW in the bag would have been a great second go to would have been great. Keep up the great videos.
I'm a big fan of PDW and low profile as you've might have seen on my channel.
This the gear you see is more for what you went through, but it's 1 year later and things only got worse.
Appreciate the perspective of course. I feel like a huge part of it is the “what’s going on”. I survived my own smaller duration SHTF in 2020 with the Fentanyl Floyd riots. That was before I fled the cities, and while I wasn’t at ground zero I was in the spillover areas that the news didn’t cover.
What a lot of folks don’t know is they had “teams” that shot off to look for other looting targets outside ground zero minneapolis. They hit a few suburbs, including mine.
A number of us went straight to the rifles and any armor we had as a deterrent “not this block guys”. Thankfully they got close to our area but never came into our neighborhood.
There was never a time a rifle wasn’t within arms reach. Thankfully I could work from home and have that on tap nearby.
I work for a power company and went to Puerto Rico for over 3 months. We were ran off some jobs (trying to restore power) near Trios Altos and Carolina
Sounds like best thing you can do is have a way of cleaning water in large ammounts if you was paying for it you coulda turned a shtf into a pay day
@@Glockamole19x Good way to get yourself shot…
Thoughts from SERE: The problem with “mission dictates gear” is that it is fundamentally untrue. That actual formula is (equipment + personnel + capability + objective) - (Risk (ORM/ALR)) = Mission
You don’t go to war with the people, equipment, and training you want, you don’t usually even get the things you need, so you take the tools you have and you use your problem solving skills to figure out how to skin the cat that’s in front of you. METT-TC is just a tool in your kit.
Right. I think he focused on "mission" in a video game sense, not the broader capability/objective definition.
That's a very interesting thought. In the history of warfare, it is only very recently that we have tailored weapons to particular missions or job sets or tactics. Normally, in the evolution of weapons, the development of the weapon comes first before the tactic or method. The spear came before the phalanx, just as the musket came before firing lines. "Mission dictates gear" is actually a historical luxury that we have been able to experience due to factors like wealth, technological modularity, and industrial infrastructure and standardization. Yet it is easily forgotten that these luxuries fail when the most basic foundations of civilization fail. And fail they have, time and time again throughout history.
When many people (especially people in the "gun community", veterans are vulnerable to this too) discuss equipment and gear, they do so from the perspective of already being accustomed to their particular trained tactics and strategies. Yet coasting along in their mental orbits, they do not notice certain many inconspicuous things that can change everything.
Facts. My set up isn't great but I can sling lead and that's better than most.
Good shit
Mission never dictated gear. That is the problem.. training dictates how you use that gear. The worst setup on the planet it still 10x more usable to someone who’s trained with that setup then the best setup and mission specific crap.. “mission specific” is a marketing term to sell shit.. be the master of what you have
Made a video on this. "METT-TC" is getting confused with the term "operator preference". IF we are talking about BOOG here and SHTF, we need to use "METT-TC" in its correct context. This is where Veterans and Civilians are going to clash alot and cause alot of problems when trying to transfer knowledge we know down to guys like you. "METT-TC" anytime brought up when i was apart of mission planning in real world scenarios, referred to gear like "how much water are we taking?" or "where are we putting our overwatch element?" or "do we take humvees or MATVs?" or "should we get A-10s on reserve, or will Apaches do because its too mountainous?". After we went through our "METT-TC" process and mission planning done, CONOP was done with the element going out, everyone goes off on their own the night before to then conduct "operator preference". No one is told "Hey, because of METT-TC, take out the M110 SASS tomorrow instead of your M4 because of the long range engagments we get in here." Thats literally on the operator. Can I reach dudes based on previous engagements with my M4? I had trouble last time...ill take the SASS. But it has absolutely nothing to do with METT-TC. My loadout, my gun, my gear, am i wearing side plates, really is just based on location of the operation and the type of operation we are conducting. Thats it. METT-TC had nothing to do with that. If the operation, REGARDLESS of METT-TC process during operational planning is going to be in the valleys in the villages? Plate carrier, side plates, m4 (or saw), put on my MOLLE LBT MAP pack, used only shorter barrled rifles, suppressors because shooting in houses suck, packed lighter because vehicles had resupply out on the roads, only because of location. If I went futher south into the mountains? Side plates came out, MAP pack was useless because we werent doing direct action hits on houses, I brought a different pack and packed more water because I was on foot more. ALL of it for me was based on location, location, location. I really hope this doesn't come off "douchey" because you can convey someones texts in any tone possible when in reality, im just trying to put out correct information so you guys can further and progress your skills as "operators". Because thats what you all essentially are when you are taking on this type of responsibility as concerned citizens now, you are operators. We are in a different world now. So again, just trying to make sure the words dont get mixed up. Because I dont think "Civilian Considerations" or "TIme Available" its going to determine what rifle ill bring out or what rig ill be wearing. Thats all for Logistical stuff and while civilians dont have NEARLY the capactiy of logistics we did in the military? You guys have alot more than you THINK you do! An example ill try to use is if you both were to plan a 2 man operation, lets say - a recon by fire 20 miles away. Thats your "M"ission. Lets consider the target you are moving to might have "E"nemy positions on the way there. How will you go around that? Will you fight through them? Or go around them to avoid making contact. "T"errain. Will you guys be humping out to the target? Will it be easier? Is there a ton of cover and concealment on the route you planned? Will it be easier to hide and avoid the "E"nemy? Or will you guys take a vehicle to the target. Well that last one will also tie into "T"ime. How much time do you have to get this mission done? Because that will defintely also affect if you are driving out to the target or humping to the target. "T"roops available. This is a 2 man recon by fire and it can get hairy VERY fast. DO we have any friendly forces in the area we can make contact with to let them know "Hey, were conducting this mission from this day, to this day. Can you be on standby as a QRF to come get us if shit goes sideways for us?" This will change how you move about, how you will get there, how willing you are to avoid contact, etc. Are you seeing how all of this is tieing in now? "C"ivilian Considerations, or in a BOOG scenario, people in the area, on the way to the target, or on the target that simply want nothing to do with this. Are they more sided with the enemy force and will give you up to the enemy force if you get compromised by them? If you take contact in certain "C"ivilian populated areas, will you have to be more alert on target identification so you dont kill a civilian? Is the "C"ivilian population greatly opposing to the enemy force? That can help you out alittle bit on y our mission. That in a horrible nutshell is......"METT-TC". After youve had that discussion during your operational planning? Now go ahead and talk amongst yourselves on your kit, loadout, and weapons of choice. That is the "operator preference"
Well-fucking said, dude, great points.
@@travelingspartan2035 I just want correct information put out. Its no ones fault here really that wrong info is put out, theres just no one out there to give the correct info and t thats what im trying to do so this community grows stronger than anything
@@realghostactual I was going to suggest you make a video about this, but I see you have one from 3 weeks ago.
Nice
This comment needs to be pinned. OUTSTANDING information. Thank you for sharing it.
@@BuckFoeJiden Just tryingto get the right infro out there brotha! We actually just filmed a short on METT-TC on my channel on how it can actually be used in civilian context - because it can be. Lets face it, we are in strange times and we have no idea what the future holds. And its time to prepare in that case. Were actually shooting a longer short in 2 weeks on how to preform a Recon
These are the conversations the industry needs more of, thanks guys, and brass it’s great to see that subcount climb!
But i need to justify my defence budget
Jeff Gurwitch at Modern Tactical Shooting has a video about this subject. Basically he calls out the idea of "mission drives" the gear as largely being nonsense and something that they did in the military that really didn't work out that well. He talked about MK18's being great for that CQB work as an example. But he talks about potentially fighting to the objective and fighting your way to the pickup point or whatever. The video covers how the CQB portion of the mission actually ended up being the shortest part of the mission and how super specialized guns like the MK18 weren't very good getting to and from the objective.
He goes further into talking about how you pretty much have to run what you've got rather than what would be optimal for the mission. If you can only grab one rifle, that rifle should have the ability to do it all because that's all you may have in a situation.
ill go check it out
This is basically what you see in all other aspects of military tech development.
Specialized equipment is not the goal. It was realized in WW2 that you ran what you had when it came to armored vehicles. Sure you had a company of tank destroyers but who knew where they were? If tanks pushed your position and all you had was Infantry support vehicles you were screwed. The general purpose machines like the Sherman were good enough at everything so they worked out.
Post War MBTs replaced Light, medium, and heavy tanks. MBTs could do everything.
Multirole aircraft replaced specialized light bombers and dive bombers. You saw this carried even further to modern day fighter jets basically doing everything from interception to ground attack. Bomber aircraft hardly exist in most airforces anymore.
There are very few cases where a situation is so specific it needs specialized equipment. Specialized equipment is a last resort.
I got to work with Jeff personally, was down range with a team commander too who he worked along side as a team sergeant. When I say Jeff really knows his shit? Thay man REALLY knows his shit. He’s been there, done that and a man I highly suggest many watch and try to pick his brain and learn from. I’ve learned so much from him.
It’s also like I said in a reply to a previous comment. Afghanistan are long range engagements that in a blink of an eye turn into MOUT and CQB scenarios. Afghanistan was the best of all worlds. In the army we have to qualify by shooting a target smaller than our dots in our aimpoints at 300 yards and hit it. You only get one round to hit it. In Afghanistan? When I took out my saw? I didn’t bring the elcan. I slapped a red dot on that bitch. Idc where I went or what the engagements might look like. I like red dots on SAWs. It’s my “preference”. No mission will dictate what optic goes on it. It will always be a red dot. For me? It was a set up that was good for almost anything just like Jeff says
If one uses a short rifle because 5% of the mission was CQB then mission didn't dictate their gear because they overlooked the other 95%. Getting to the destination is also the mission. The constant complaint from people is wrong. Mission _does_ dictate the gear, but most people don't actually look at the whole mission.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz I’m just wondering how many people who argue any of this BS ever did a mission that involved killing people. And no, Escape from Tarkov doesn’t count.
I think there is this overlooked psychological aspect of the more general use equipment. You will bring it everywhere and everytime you are gonna complain that it isn't good enough in those individual categories and you will be constantly thinking about improving it. But you might actually forget that you have achieved your goal becouse you are bringing it everywhere (the original intent), but that't too vague for your ming to focus on so you don't appreciate it.
grass is always greener.
I think the SPR example rings true here. We were hitting at 600yards, but then struggled at 7.
Yeah technically we could have kept pushing the envelope. but when does it end?
@@BrassFacts exactly, at what point would you loose the CQC half of the SPR.
The problem is that we as gun guys will always see where we can improve but it's never going to come without downsides. And the ar-15 being so versatile and customizable doesn't help because you can fine tune the crap out of an ar-15 for the most niche of circumstances.
Once you are happy with your marksmanship skills, introduce difficulties that challenge you further.
Cold, slightly numb fingers.
Wet and cold clothing.
Extreme heat environment.
Hunger and thirst challenges during shooting drills.
Ect.
@@BrassFacts big fan of these newer lightweight 308 rifles - the SFAR, POF Rogue, Red River Ultralight R10 and the POF revolution.
please review a lightweight 308 semi auto rifle if you can. surplus m80 is cheaper than you think.
I like the Nutnfancy type talks on perspectives that are often overlooked or under appreciated
Agreed
Yes Nutn2.0
At least this one isn't 45 minutes of fat and 2.5 minutes of conclusion.
@@hawaiian_judge5113 dont forget 'show n tell' at the beginning of every episode!🙃
It's a shame that such a sumptuous acronym like METTTC has been distilled down to "mission drives the gear," and more disappointing still that it gets used as an excuse to avoid answering questions.
Well agreed. I've heard it repeated that 'Situation Dictates' is almost axiomic in application, but the situation does not change what you have on you when push comes shovin. Being as flexible in application as possible is an important attribute between training, and your fighting equipment. Thanks to guys like you and Brass that information is getting to be more and more widely spread and I am grateful.
whats even more insane is...its not even the right word to use for an answer like that. If you check my comment above, i explain even with an example what METT-TC actually is and that it neeeds to stop getting confused with the term "operator preference"
But that's the gist of what METT-TC means. That's the core idea behind an acronym that no one is going to remember.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz You're right in that most won't remember who didn't spend time in the service but you're wrong about the core basis of the acronym. In practice what Hop, Brass, and Uplift have explained does vary wider than what METTTC covers if you're not working with DOD resources.
As a civ. I typically think of my kit in two ways. Mounted and unmounted. Am I walking or riding. Vehicles may require shorter guns and more armor where as walking may require magnification and lots of water. Just my .02
Petition to increase the barrel length of the GPR to 20” to get that M193 extra spicy
20" ain't even that long, and Faxon makes some great barrels to shave weight.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz perhaps the greatest psyop within the AR community is that 20" barrels are "long"
"dId U evUn sErvE? U cannOt UsE thAt AcrOnyM."
I've heard that several times unironically.
The best part of METT-TC is that it applies even when (especially when) you're trying to subvert it. A hyper-specialization due to a pre-planned METT-TC is, itself, a failure to take METT-TC into account.
The military is great to draw inspiration and information from, but at the end of the day civilian militia type situations often just are not the same and require a more robust and generalist approach.
There’s no tanks or air support. But maybe one day if there is a so called “Boog”, there’s no stopping you from acquiring said tanks or air support 😉🤌
@bLackstar SEE! Now youre fucking getting it!!!
I may be speaking out of turn, but I never have been one to overthink things when it comes to gear and guns beyond, “Is this setup good enough for what I am capable of?” I don’t have the capability to fight in the dark? I would avoid the situation if possible. Knowing your limits is a gift, and we ALL have limits. I think that people forget that we should pick and choose our fights and max our advantage before we even decide to “go on missions,” so to say. Don’t do cqb engagements if you could easily use other methods to achieve the goal if you get what I mean. Don’t have nods? Don’t be out trying to fight at night. Being a ghost is not as sexy as being a door kicker or night hawk, but you WILL live a hell of a lot longer if you use discernment to make realistic decisions based on your limitations.
Myself and the missus had a very similar conversation relating to our cars. Referred to it as the venn diagram of cars. Essentially decided on a very similar idea, we could own 2 cars that were polar opposites with little crossover and unable to perform in each others niches or even do day to day stuff especially well. Or get 2 cars that performed different primary roles, but were very competent dailies and could fill in for each other if needed.
Good stuff as always gents, keep it up
A lot of this conversation really reads like common sense, though I say that academically as a civilian with no training or service under my belt, obviously take that with a massive grain of salt, lol. Specifically, the thing that resonates with me is "Every (gun) must retain basic (fighting) capability," and remembering that every tool must have a purpose. I constantly think back to my dad's (and now my) multi tool and "Will you always have the perfect hammer for the perfect job?"
Anyway, this was a good video, great stuff
check out 90% of rifles on the gram
They are SPRs or CQB rifles with zero magnification and 2.26 height mounts
@@BrassFacts I guess that's why I'm so surprised at how "common sense" this realization is? Like I think my 16" AR with a lightweight 1-4x is a good idea, and then I see nothing but "Nitefite" builds and CBQ setups with Eotechs on Unity risers haha
@@shark_actual yes a 1-4x on a 16in is the base
@@BrassFacts we would have to qualify hitting a target smaller than the 2 moa dot in our aimpoint a at 300 meters away. With no magnification. While as a civilian thay sounds like nonsense and it is true that is vets and currently serving are not great shooters, we made what we had work. So yea, you’ll see me with me 10.5 and my Unity mount shooting out to 300+ yards…bexause I used to have to do it and I have done it. “Mission dictates the gear” yea but I can shoot out to even 400 meters with my 14.5 with a red dot so ehhhhhh…again “operator preference”
I think we've had our perception skewed by being in Afghanistan for 20 years. We think that every fighting rifle ought to be effective out to half a mile (6.8x51mm, anyone?) and that we also need to be "operator" with a 10.3 and a can at other times. The Germans got it right in WWII with the Stg: they wanted a SMG that *could* work out to 400m, even though they also acknowledged that 90% of shots taken would be within 1/4 of that distance. Be capable out to 1/4 mile but optimize for
As much as I love to spend my hard earned money on guns and gear, I really need to focus on training with what I have
You're right! Folks tryna get NV and plates but forget that folks won conflicts with way less.
@@nomad155 NV has a ton of uses beyond warfighting, though.
@nomad155 yeah until the other guys had night vision, then in every actual gunfight they got folded like an omelet
Really enjoyed the video. I find it mildly comforting that I am not alone in thinking of these genuine yet terrifying scenarios.
Haven’t finished the vid yet, but I’m the context of SHTF, in regards to the “E” of METT-TC, why don’t more people train for mag retention? If SHTF goes down you will have the mags you have and that’s it (scavenging not withstanding). And I’m imagining most firefights will be of the “break contact” variety, probably won’t have time to go back and get your spent mags. I don’t know, maybe I’m just worrying too much about a non issue, but as cool and plate carriers, NODs, and boutique rifles are, they’re all kinda pointless without a functioning magazine. I’m not a competitor and I try to baby my mags when shooting. Anyway it’s a little thing that I don’t hear people talk about a lot.
U r correct. Retain as much as possible.
@@skullofserpent5727 makes sense, dude. I use HSP's mag inserts for my rig (easy to re-index) and have a dump pouch for throwing empties, but because of a training course where I got tired of trying to find the damn things afterward. Guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
@@travelingspartan2035 well add couple of tricks is easy. Different reload methods+mag drop/retention etc. I do it based on scenario. U r all good brother. Keep frosty
because I will die before I run out of mags.
seriously.
If the mag is empty. It is no longer useful for me, I don't reload in the field, If I want more ammo, i'll just bring more mags
At the end I will just go home and pull another mag out of the box and use that.
It is not hard to have 20-30 mags in reserve (and you should for other reasons). There is no feasible scenario where I will use 30 mags to empty over several months and still be alive.
Empty Mag retention is finkey, dump pouches are a major pain in the ass. Trying to save myself a 10 dollar mag then, is much easier mitigated by spending 20 dollars now and not worrying about holding on to a piece of plastic.
Dump pouches! Good for spent mags, loaded mags, water bottles, and so much more. They take up little space and are inexpensive. Everyone should rock one IMO
In my experience "METT-TC dependent" is the most honest "cop out" answer I have ever heard in troop leading procedures and later, used
I think METT-TC is hard to do as a civilian because our circumstances are much more generalized than the military, which has many more resources and takes the time to plan, refine the mission, time to recon the enemy, time to figure out ingress and egress, and has things like Exfil protocols and the ability to call in a QRF or even a Jtac which has the ability to call in air strikes or close air support.
Having a quality setup that you’ve trained with and taken to the time refine to something that will flex into any role adequately and will happily have no matter what the situation is, now that makes sense to me. Everything can be adapted or fine tuned, but you always need a strong baseline of kit and skills to be able to be covered on most aspects.
If you're doing things right as a civilian, you take the time to do as much of that as possible. I've rolled everything you mentioned up to and including exfil planning into...let's just say "peacetime stability operations" with a time frame measured in hours.
The military does things its way(s) for a reason. I encourage you to learn as much of the reasoning behind it as you can, cherry-pick what you can practically apply, and revise and/or omit the rest.
Every group needs a RPK-style rifle. One of these FRT-type triggers, heavier barrel, bipod and 40rd sticks / drum mags.
Lucky for my group, I have the 07/02 ffl/sot and just built our own actual IAR/RPK
In the canadian army, we use the smesc:
Situation(enemy, ally, "brown"[aka civies])
Mission(a tldr of the op)
Execution (split in usually 3 phases, who will do what, who is who etc)
Support (ammo, food, water, grids, resupply points, 1st aid, medevac...)
Command and transmission(chain of command, callsigns, frequencies, pass words, running pass words, code words...)
Makes it pretty simple and fast once you are used to it
Brass Facts makes work go by faster
When almost every letter of METT-TC is filled with a ???, It quickly becomes a less than useful acronym to try to use. Very good down to earth discussion, as always.
That being said my 'GPR' leans towards the civilian IAR category because what's the point in having 30 plus mags loaded with 855A1 and mk318 If I can't completely dump them in a general direction lol.
BF + Hop are my fav tacticool bromance on the internet right now ❤
Really glad I was a tank Commander and could take exactly what I wanted to the fight. Every time. M1A1 DU 120mm.
Plus, the front fender made an awesome bed.
I love when the channel does these what if/hypothesis videos. I really like that mental thinking of the scenarios. Great video!
By far my favorite channel for the past 6~ months. Great info as always. Informative and entertaining🥇🥇
Y’all are 100% right. Just look at green berets(green beans) or the recon Element of force recon. They don’t have full support for their week long+ ops so they set their gear to run their ops and be semi prepared for a 90°, 45° op orders, a call to act as overwatch for troops in contact, or hasty reconnaissance on a new objective. When that type of battlefield conditions are in place they prepare for pretty much everything. They’ll carry with them usually light SAPI plates(previously they were just have a second issue with extra small, now they have 3+ style plates im told), have SPRs or smaller carbines with magnification. Some even remove their lasers and toss them in a NVG pouch.
@@realghostactual can you not read? That’s rhetorical I know you can’t. Force recon is still a fuckin thing. Recon Marines haven’t gone anywhere. I’m literally talking about two different units that carry similar gear. Shut up POG.
@@realghostactual it’s not a conversation, conversations are two way and you came at me talking like a SME for all of the military. That’s POG brevet behavior, you act like a POG, look like a POG and talk like a POG chances are you’re a POG, don’t like that? Then present yourself differently. Deployments don’t make you less of a POG either. I edited my comment hours before you even replied literally a minute after commenting I realized auto correct fucked up some words. So you definitely read “or” unless you had this app up for 3 hours on the same video. Frankly I don’t care what you’ve done, the only people who’ve done stuff impressive to me at this point are MOH recipients and recommendations. You commented false shit on my comment while telling me I don’t know anything. Literally was my job…. It’s the internet, I’m not gunna be nice behind a keyboard because I’m not nice in real life. I call stupid ass Marines stupid on a daily basis it seems and have no problems “dropping blouse” either with Marines I insult. Stop being sensitive you’re in the Army.
@@ShepherdOfTheSilkies I’m not in the army, I’m out of the army, I was an 11B, and I’m sorry I triggered your insanely neglected PTSD. Get a good nights sleep
@@realghostactual no and no, I’m still at work, gunna be here for another 2 hours or more. Literally just trying to watch RUclips videos, and be helpful during my breaks.
When stacking or clearing houses, I would advise against tapping the person to initiate an action. The last thing you want to do is accidentally bump someone's shoulder and they think it is "go time" and they charge into a room all alone. Instead, I suggest squeezing the arm or shoulder. This is how we did it in the infantry, and when I was the gunner of a humvee, they would squeeze my leg if they want my attention because people bump into you all the time. Squeezing is deliberate.
I’ll say the biggest pitfall most people have with thinking about
gunfights is the first rule is see them BEFORE they see you. If you cant move without being seen and see threats first you will almost always die to anyone with decent aim and intent. Everything else is just the in between race of logistics that eventually come around to accuracy being final. Military units have snipers, recon units, and drones that allow us to see the enemy first and plan around that.
The problem isn't METTC, it's the (improper) application. At it's core, it's risk management, and risk management can still be performed with unknown variables. The goal is to evaluate the expected conditions, and make you choices based off that. Part of the failure on the civilian side is very few people do an area study. If they did, they would be able to identify likely threats, areas you'd expect to see them, etc. Likewise, you should have an idea of WHERE you'll be and WHY. Maps provide terrain information. You know if you have long sight lines or short. If you don't know WHY you're going somewhere, why are you doing it? None of this negates a general purpose setup, because sometimes that is the best decision. All that is to say is that METTC is still a valuable analysis in a civilian context - it simply requires more attention than it's being given. You need to learn area studies, and you need to act with purpose. If you don't have either of those, you're already severely disadvantage and your gear is nothing more than a lootbox.
Biggest local threat around me is the gangs across the bridge in the city. Second biggest is the crackheads on my side of the bridge. If it was total anarchy, we would probably only need to go to the bridge once. Once that’s no longer a problem, then the crackheads will either be chased off or wander off on their own in search of more crack.
@@bigredwolf6 I highly recommend checking out Forward Observer and Clay Martin. If things get bad, there's a lot of cascading failures that can occur. CW2, and the global situation both have a possibility of our grid being targeted. If it is, it's likely down for at least 1.5 years due to part shortages. Even outside of the city that's going to drastically alter the risks you face and what actions you need to take to mitigate them. And that purpose is what drives "missions."
That's a great start to your analysis, but it's just scratching the surface and likely only accounting for a single possible scenario. As an example, most people typically don't have more than 3 days of food on hand (if that). After it's gone, they start turning to violence. Are there local food sources? Do you have local water sources? Where? If power fails, so do pumps. Is there someone likely to take over the local water sources? Is the bridge over a water source or a road? Both are methods others could be entering your area will ill intent, or with the intent of simply leeching off your resources. Let's say it's a bridge over a river. Addicts are getting antsy due to lack of food. You've disabled the bridge. Can they still cross the river? It should be expected that if pre-event (whatever it is) they're willing to steal or rob, they'll be even more willing to act violently when their survival depends on it, so they'll likely try. Migrants can get it done. So who's watching the river? When? How? That's a purpose driven mission, even if you're needing to check on other routes people could enter your area. It's going to demand a different approach than sending someone out to a neighboring town, or other local resources. Somalia: Engagements there with 5.56 were challenging due to drug use and the combatant's physical state. In response the military started adopting 300 AAC and 458 Socom. If your expected threat around the bridge is in a similar state, you're probably going to need to rely on something more likely to deal with a thin and intoxicated threat - particularly since if you're having to resort to local defense, you aren't going to have the ability to order ammo online so it's going to be more difficult to come by.
Tons of stuff to think about. Lots of interconnected parts, and all of it will vary based on the specific situation. At the end of the day though, you can develop a fairly solid idea of what will be needed and what jobs need to be done. That will tell you the how.
I’m definitely moving to a very generalized loadout especially in this economy
My AO goes from urban to suburban to rural 1,000 acre corn fields all within 5 miles of each other. You convinced me to get an lvpo. Too bad I bought my red dot before watching your videos.
I wouldn't sell the red dot. It probably has a good home you just haven't found yet
I still maintain that 16” barrel is still the one that can cover you in the most wide range circumstances and still function, it’s just doesn’t hit the fringes at either end up 11.5 or 20
Yeah I've got "they're in my house" and "they're half a mile away" guns
Home defense and hunting were my priorities.
Now starting on a more general purpose rifle. Always appreciate your insights.
Love'm or hate'm he's spittin' some BRASSFACTS!
Looong post, sorry. I’ve been watching stuff like this for years and generally I find people gravitating to the “make your setup like a spec ops warrior” video but the reality is 99% of those watching will never be a spec ops anything.
Rifle is always talked about first so let’s go there. Your rifle should have a 16” barrel minimum with your choice of optic (the “recce rifle” or the M4 Sniper).
Magazines - 6 + 1 if you’re doing something that you don’t expect contact or recce, 12 + 1 if you think you might, plus a complete reload in your pack. Whether it was Viet Nam, the Brits in Malaysia or Marines Afghanistan, 12 was and is the norm. Some units SOP required more.
Water - nobody talks about water but we should. Using the above samples as a base, you need 4 canteens minimum and at least one of those should be a two quart version. Water bladder? Sure but you’d better be ready to repair it, just in case. Refills - water purification tabs or filter or both?
Can you make hits at 500 yards with a barrel shorter than 16? Sure. Can you make effective hits at 500 yards? According to SEAL snipers? No. That’s why they had 16” barrels put on their M4s hence the M4 Sniper, AKA the recce rifle. It’s also why the Marines have moved to an 18” barrel. Some claim you can’t guarantee an effective hit at 300 yards with a 14” barrel. I don’t know, I wasn’t there.
Yeah, you can set up your kit like a spec ops warrior (10” barrel, 4 magazines with a water bladder) but in the situation we’re discussing there’s no extract coming to get you, no immediate resupply and no QRF coming to save you. In this situation it’s you, your buds and what you got on your back. Better to plan accordingly., IMO.
I know I’m late to the comment party but, wow! This has been a high smack in the head to me. Thanks for an awesome and challenging presentation. I definitely want some specialty oriented long guns but I’m for sure gonna keep them true to the general purpose of a long gun for us civies. Versatile enough to adapt to changing needs in the moment. Great job and thanks again!
General purpose is King. A "Do everything I never need it to" and learn it. Any special tools you may need, or specialized weapons go next to the GPR, not a replacement.
If someone has a hobby, cool.
Speaking about specialization, if one is truely setting up for rough times, one needs to have the skillset to go along with those specialized rifles and build out the experience and infrastructure.
But again, if ones point is just to post pics online, cool, have at it. No need for all the extra baggage.
But that Skillz requirement means most people should get a GP rifle and get deep stacks of food and other infrastructure for rough times.
I built 7 rifles over the years. If I were to do it over. I would build and spare no expense on a lower and BCG.
Build 3 Uppers
Long range upper 16 to 18 barrel
GP 13.5 to 14.5 barrel
CQ 7.5 to 10.5
1 Suppressor 556 to fit all uppers.
If you substitute the CQ with 300 BO.
Purchase one 30 cal suppressor and thread adaptors for the 556 barreled uppers.
Optics of choice on all uppers.
Detachable mounts would make optics even more universally adaptable. This would cover just about any mission.
Doing this would have saved me alot of money over building 7 rifles.
Hope this was helpful.
yoooooooooooooooOoooooo*and hop here*eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
hoooooooop
How hard was it going a full video without talking about the flux?
This is something I came to realize after building my first AR. I had purchased one AR type before-hand, a 16" LWRC rifle, piston driven, fluted barrel, real nice. I chose to build a 20" HBAR rifle with an ACOG, for range day fun and heat dissipation. Its not a light rifle, but it feels decent, not too front heavy, but not ideal.
So I learned from it, and built a 16" version with a NV capable holo sight and plan to add a flip up magnifier. It has a much more balanced feel to it despite being 7-8lbs loaded, making it comfortable to use over a longer period. Over time Im hoping to make it my general purpose rifle, adding a PEC and light to make it decent for anything that I could forsee needing it for. The stock doubling as 2 tube battery storage is also a bonus for any electronics, or to fill with weight to help keep it balanced if needed. TBD on that second bit though.
My initially ideas after having a realistic conversation with my bros went about the same as this video. And the conclusion was we had to sell of combine some rifle purposes. Ex: Instead of having night rifles make every rifle have night capability. (Despite the cost.)
Optimize all aspects and make a few choices rifles and kits that can be used in multiple actually realistic scenarios. And have a backup for each.
Now we are just making an excel spreadsheet of every part on the market and seeing which is best. Funnily enough if you have 3 single men with stable incomes all pitching in parts and equipment actually seems cheap.
I learned a lot of acronyms in the infantry, but the only one besides SLLS that I remember is METT TC. great video. I'm already complying with your principles, but need to upgrade optics due to me moving from south Louisiana (red dot in the AR), to genuinely needing more magnification in Colorado.
Thank you for bringing the community back down to earth
If your protecting a community it will be a lot of recon not only your rifle but good coms being able to stay out on mission for 3 or 4 days and still communicate
Range finders
NV binoculars
Good camera to document people and equipment ect.
Maps for marking locations, being able to go unseen and sustain yourself without getting caught
The nano black hornet drone could end up being your best tool
That's why small units in the military carry many weapons. A sniper will carry his m4 as well as his long gun. Small teams that are vehicle bound will have other rifles in the vehicle accessible if they need to shift their abilities on the go
Awesome content brother, most appreciated. I appreciate the POU type of videos and they rarely get old for me
Great video the rifle concept is tons of fun! In reality how far sideways will the world have to get to where everyone was okay with you walking down the street with your rifle it would be basically be The Purge I find myself choosing between leaving the house with a glock 26 in my pocket or my rifle in 40 magazines 😂
Flexibility outweighs specialization and training drives to fill the gaps between the two. Moreso when it comes to armor and armament. Thanks for pushing the info out there gents.
For general purpose I run my 13.7" mid-gas Noveske. For urban and cqb with cans I run 11.5" AA piston burners. I have a dedicated security build that's an 8.1" SA piston that runs with a can. For overwatch I have a 20" with a 4.5-16×56. For a general recce I have a 16" gen 1 POF P415 that runs with a can. So far each one has some bleed-over aside from the 8.1". Only own 2 DI burners out of the 8.
Something I've recently found kinda funny is the idea that i need to go anywhere but home. Why don't we invest all our money and time into fortifying our homes and maintaining enough supplies to wait out the disaster first? Also the only reason we can specialize in the military is because we have an entire squad, platoon , and or company supporting us.
Thanks for all the very useful info! I love the channel and what you put out there.
As for my own thermal experience I'd recommend looking into Sector Optics T3 mini/micro thermal scope.
I only bought the thermal viewer (not the entire system) and mounted it on a 30mm flip to the side ring so there's no interference with my red dot.
Its purpose is short-range home defense or other familiar place scenario in up to total darkness where I know my terrain well and don't want to give away my location with my white light.
It's less than 4" in length and although it won't stop an invading foreign army it's light and small enough to work on a small PCC, PDW. Pricing is also very good for what you get. I like it and recommend checking it out (I have no horse in this race).
this is a good conversation that more people need to have. ill be sending this to my group !
When I used to live in the cities, red dot carbine was king. Now I’ve fled and I’m working through learning how to cqb with an LPVO because I can get anything from close to 300 yards in my area. I’ve thought about just limiting to dot anyway on the 5.56 because the wooded areas we have are real thick and I’m not convinced how well 5.56 would do anyway punching through. Sort of the same argument they had about Vietnam I suppose.
For woods, either an AR 10 or a semi auto shotgun with slugs or special bush rounds. I’m not sure how effective those bush rounds are though. Could just be a gimmick.
Great video! I would love to here you guys discuss drones in terms of general purpose use. This whole situation in Ukraine leads me to believe that it will be an essential for any kind of hostile environment.
I need a better drone haha.
Mines on the verge of death
General purpose, but 4 season. The problem is weight, but you can ditch a lot of gear with the right skills. Do some distance hiking and bushcraft, now combine that with a general purpose minute man load out. Your weapon should just be whatever you are comfortable with and have trained with.
I love how much detail we all put into the “just in case” scenario.
I suppose I like spending on the kewl stuff as well.
Would love to see more of these! Really enjoy these talks with you and hop.
I think the most useful thing a civilian could do in war is likely to maintain control of their local airport. Make sure the enemy can't use it as a Launch point. Perhaps also hitting checkpoints.
I’m a simple man, I see some assfacts, and I click.
This is logic I tried to stick to when building my kit. I have a few weird decisions in there, like a piston instead of DGI, and a .45 instead of 9mm, because I have no reason to assume I’ll just have CLP or good defensive loads on hand or a trip to the store away.
Thinking like that, you might chose a rifle that doesn't use it's guts to machine it's other guts because its not using the physics it was designed around, but what do I know.
@@camojoe83 ?
For all these specialty items that are design around specific missions in a military context, they seem to miss (or conveniently forget) how the actual military goes about it. You're manning a vehicle checkpoint, what do you bring? Well, your issued LBE and rifle. You're doing a 12 hour recce, what do you bring? That same LBE and rifle. You're doing a company strength assault over multiple days through woods, across fields and clearing buildings, what do you bring? That same LBE and rifle and a backpack full of food and ammo. Sure, get all the coolguy stuff if you have the cash money because it's fun, so long as you have core equipment that is flexible enough that it'll work passably well in any situation.
I feel like for the money spent and 14.5 with a 1-8x and dot, a 16-18” 308 gas gun or 20” bolt gun with a 3-18x and a dot as a hunting/battle rifle/dmr. Obviously not the best at everything but an 18” 308 gas gun that’s well built will hunt, be a good battle rifle and have good enough glass to hit accurate out to 800. At least the way I see it. So the “urgi” style 14.5. A 16-18” 308 gas gun and either an Ak. 300 blk shorty. Mk18. Mp5. Shot gun. Whatever your jam is for a #3. 1-2 hand guns. 3-5 guns. Tons of capability if you make the right choices.
As a civilian your mission is mot likely gonna be location dependent. If you live in a big city you main focus will be dealing with mobs of people and trying to flee the city. If you live in the suburbs around a big city you are probably gonna find yourself protecting your local grocery store and infrastructure from the mobs fleeing the big city to look for resources. If you live out in the country it will be protecting your homes and property especially if you have food and cattle, chickens, crops. When things fall out people need food and shelter, everything else comes after.
So what you’re saying is, this doesn’t actually have to do with METT-TC (which is a term somehow still getting thrown around so incorrectly), but depending on location? I only ask because, yes. You’re correct
@@realghostactual For civilians everything is location dependent. You do not have air support to drop you in and out over long distances. If you live in a city, your mission dictates you loadout. Are you gonna hunker down or flee? It should really be a combination of 3 things, location should always dictate your mission choices, then your mission choice should dictate what gear you need. I call it LMG Location, mission, gear. To many people train from a military or police perspective, and while it is useful, for a civilian it only goes so far.
@@voteholyk AHHHH dude I love that! "LMG"! haha im stealing that! But I think civilians can take alot even down to operational planning. A TON of it. Scroll through some of the comments and youll see my comment on how METT-TC can be used in a civilian scenario.
Lastly, saw your channel saw youre running for senate! Im not from Washington but you have my support brother! Anything you need let me know!
This channel just keeps getting better and better. 👍🏻
METT-TC even comes down to hurricanes as a realistic example. Going out for gas and water after weeks of no power and radio literally saying, “law enforcement will likely not be able to get to you, do what you must to be safe.”
I carried my Flux Raider in a Helikon sling bag with my full size p320 IWB. Also kept an IFAK in the bag and a larger one in my vehicle. A lot of METT-TC even comes down to concealment of your readiness. When society has only semi-collapsed, you can’t quite rush out in your full kit. Though a rifle carbine would be better, I had to sacrifice it for the conceal-ability of a PDW. Fine for my expected engagements of being within 100yard, anything further I’m doing my best to break contact. The point is critical thinking! The two most realistic levels of readiness in my opinion is the GPR and the… for lack of better term, “Grey Man” kit.
Brass hitting a little too close to home here and breaking down all my excuses on spending way too much on gear. I think a lot of us invent "needs", e.g. specific loadouts to justify buying cool new toys. There's nothing inherently wrong with this though.
im just as guilty.
I remember back to El Salvador the OD operators carried their sheet in a F.A.G. Bag; a MAC, mags, gold and silver, a couple of passports, the regular stuff
METT-TC really has nothing to do with gear. You may not have any gear or need to get to your gear. You never know and that’s the point of METT-TC. What could come up and what do I need to adapt to? It’s not something you really plan for, it’s something you adapt to while it’s happening. Survival and preservation of life, limb, and eyesight are always the mission and you need to be able to critically think at a moments notice to ensure you can protect those things.
Using the METT-TC perimeters for civilian application of gear ,I think, is pointless for the simple fact that civilians, even in the most dire circumstances, don’t have a mission beyond survival. Most civilians are not going to be conduction troop leading procedures, nor will they have adequate numbers or the resources to conduct an operation.
If you and your mutual assistance group, or prepper club or militia (dirty word) want to come up with battle rosters and an MTOE, assign designated marksmen, a weapons section, scouts, etc. that’s fine. But no one is going to willingly focus on one specific weapons platform or assignment in a fire team because everyone who is a civilian thinking about all this wants to do everything.
Everyone needs a rifle with magnification. Everyone needs 7 mags. Everyone needs 72 hours of food and water. Everyone needs coms. Everyone needs first aid. If you want to get more organized than that, join the infantry.
Tbh, I have reason to believe that all I would really need on an AR-15 would be a two point sling, bayonet & maybe a flashlight. Anything else would be nice to have, but the point of failure or the number of times I would actually feel a need for it would be too low to carry it.
Iron Sights- The most durable & reliable sight system ever.
Two Point Sling- Provides multiple ways to equip the rifle while allowing you to be hands free.
Flashlight-Poor man’s night vision. Beats having nothing at all, waiting for your eyes to fully adjust.
Bayonet- If the rifle fails you, then say your prayers, say goodbye to your loved ones, & charge.
Be sure to have enough magazines so you can swap them all out to put ease on the springs, always have the knowledge & training to operate it under stress & maybe, just maybe you’ll be alright.
I've always wondered how those of you who have an arsenal of guns would do in SHTF. Do you just grab what you need and leave the rest as free loot, or can you somehow carry them all?
Well as much as I love my percussion rifle and .22, they’re not fighting rifles. So yea if I have ti leave something those would be it.
Exactly my thoughts! I only buy what I can carry
You need to reevaluate the idea that "SHTF = run away".
Mission always dictates weapon!Excellent break down guys. Good info all around, made me rethink my load out. Probably going to change a few things
11:02
Rare loot drop.
Always enjoy this channel. Good stuff. I don’t have much to say, but gotta feed the RUclips algorithm.
Yummy.
the nice thing about CQB builds is that the upper probably doesn't weigh a lot and can easily fit in your ruck.
In my opinion METT-TC is a mindset and practice. If you see whats going on in the country you should always practice. I say to any civilian or former vet stay prepared as well as the grey man. Adopt and art of war quote of this mindset all warfare is based on deception. Never let anyone know you're prepared or armed
As civilians we need to greatly reconsider the "E" from METT-TC. Historically, the enemy is more likely than not going to be active military (foriegn troops on home soil) or local police (approximately 100 million people were rounded up and executed by thier own governments during the past century.) In both cases both groups are currently equipped with level 3 armor and generally 14.5 inch AR15s.
Civilians who prepare for this will be well served by focusing on capabilities that allow for engagement at longer distances while maintaining the ability to penetrate said armor. Generally that means full length barrels and some form of magnification....save the SBR'S for the specialty use they were designed for.
FWIW...I'm a vet myself, and come from a family full of LEOs. Obviously I support them. But, history is full of examples where things haven't worked out the way they were intended. (See Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Nazi Germany, just to name a few.)
Best of luck with your METT-TC and operator preference planning.
Phil
Great content, thank you!
Could you also tie in living off of your back for a couple of days in varying conditions, while performing those generalist functions?
General purpose existence while applying those general purpose arms.
The whole man.
yeah, for sure. We l cut out a lot of the other gear talk to bring the time under 30min.
Indefinite gear ramblings are cool too
Kinda why I went with a mid length barrel 13.9, semi lightweight, practice shooting a mag/RDS or Irons or rds/lpvo to mid distance and close range.... now work on a CQB style and maybe a .308 later
I went as close to a general purpose build as I could while also avoiding NFA grounds with a 13.7 pin and weld with minimal shit added to it
Ok here's best budget GPR set up, (IMO),
16" barrel( pencil, gov, etc no bull/dmr).
free float handguard rifle - (mlok full length top rail)
1-6 LPVO PA/Swampfox, or Vortex.
Two stage trigger
flash hider A2 or wherever else you want
sling
surefire (88059) weapon light
Pmags
That's it. You now have a GPR that can do pretty much everything you need. Without spending 💰💰💰 on night vision or a suppressor, or need to sbr it.
Excellent discussion as always, though I was hoping y'all would go a bit more into gear than just rifle setups. Though the same concept still applies, I think there are a lot of misconceptions revolving around mission essential gear, especially when it comes to third line gear. This will be something I go over in the near future, but I'd love to hear y'all's take on the subject matter. Keep up the great work.
you guys need to do a video on how you mount your lpvo - steps - how to
And the MP5 video Hop made ….. I have the GSRB hydra mount for EOTECH on a professionally welded pic rail and sure fire light forend that’s how you solve that riddle
Good job guys I really enjoyed this.
Now you got me thinking about getting rid of my MK12 and slap the 3-10 on my 14.5
RUclips unsubscribed me.
Thanks Susan, very cool
I would add the one argument that day vs night fighting using NVGs are different enough types of generality that they can reasonably command two guns to be anchored in the two different set-ups. And while a lot of other circumstances for these ill-defined, civilian emergency "missions" are unknown unknowns, we know what time the sun is going down every single day, and we can estimate how long a specific distance of travel might take us, add in a margin for slowdowns or obstacles, and know with a fair degree of certainty if we're likely to be back before sundown. I think in most dangerous, SHTF type of scenarios, if you don't have NVGs, you're almost always best to avoid going out at night altogether if you can at all avoid it. And if you have to, using the same white light with long throw and medium range optic is the probably most useful generalist set-up. But if you do have NVGs, the generalist rifle(s) you set up for daytime use are dramatically worse suited to all nighttime roles and it makes sense to anchor that rifle in a night fighting role with different kit. But it won't come cheap. So start with daytime generalist rifle, get good. Then if you can specialize, adding a night-time generalist is more fruitful and sensible than adding a big bore checkpoint gun or a super-sneaky sniper bolt gun or whatever.
Every time you introduce your self, I think of things that rhyme with "Brass Facts".
Assss FACTS
@@BrassFacts Glass Cats
But I need a gun for every specific niché situation that I'll never be in. I need a waterproof rifle for when im emerging from scuba diving into an enemy base, I need a gun that can withstand the cold temperatures or outer space for when I am fighting from my shuttle to a space station, and I need an ultra-reliable piston gun for when I, as a civillian, shoot between 2-3k rounds in one sitting on a "mission."
If I could go back to 2012ish when I got into guns, I would buy 1 M&P sport AR, an Aimpoint red dot, a dozen pmags, and ammo. And every time I wanted to get a different gun or "upgrade" something on it, I should have spent the money on ammo and training. Then by 2018ish I should have bought a 16" gun from a high end company, bought another aimpoint, and set it up exactly the same. Maybe at some point get into the suppressor game.
No other guns, setups, etc
Some solid info here! Thanks for the share!!
LMAO the shot timer to the face made the whole video worth it
he did realize the last couple times.
So I made sure he was very aware.
I mean as far as first priority, keeping family and self safe is numero uno. So close protection gear and weapon setup?🤷♂️ I picture being in n out of vehicles and around buildings a lot at the beginning of the…end. But I could be completely off.