A point to consider. It is not impossible to make a 10x LPVO. But it just hasn't really been done, and it absolutely hasn't been done when you consider the important aspect of cost, availability, and execution. One day this video will not be true, but having messed with even the 4000 dollar 1-10x's I still argue that those are only marginally better than say, the 1-10x vuduu, while being 2x (or more) of the cost.
Would having a larger 35mm tube potentially help much? That's what Atibal has done with their MPVO, but there's not a lot of in depth reviews of that thing.
Absolutey concur. I don't have a platform where I need crappy 10x and crappy 1x at the same time when I can have literally any other option. haha the MRO showing up was amazing. Good conversations as always! -Walsh
Amen! I am in the market for an LPVO right now actually. I’m waiting for my bonus in March and I’m hoping for 3500 so I can get an optic and a dead air sandman (been dying for one for years). Anywho it’s all going on my project rifle that I have been slowly upgrading and building for the last 5 years so I want something really nice. I was debating between the vortex 1-10, the nightforce atacr, vudu 1-10, or a trijicon sco. Slowly i am coming around to the sco. 8x is plenty for my block 2 upper and if the marines selected it then it must be the absolute cutting edge of best of the best because they replaced the ACOG with the VCOG (insane because the ACOG is the best combat optic ever made). I think 1-8 will be fine. The vortex looks awesome and I hear amazing reviews about it but I want something that takes AA and I hear the same complaints a lot that the vortex is as good as decent will ever get for a 1-10 right now
I went with a 2.5-10 vudu instead of going for the 1-10. The 44mm lense really makes a difference. Loosing the low end isnt even missed honestly. Can always offset with a red dot
There's a big physics reason for this (I'm an optical engineer). Your pupil is about 3-8mm. 6x4mm is 24mm, the exit aperture of most LPVOs. The physics/Ray trace here is essentially parallel lines coming in and parallel lines coming out focused by your eyeball. No matter how magic your optical design (and magnification ratios over 6x are a bitch to design regardless of the system application) is you're not getting around that. Till you start seeing the bells at the front open up they're going to suck past 6x.
Great video! You accurately and succinctly describe the inherent trade-offs and limitations of high magnification ratios inherent in LPVOs. However, there are solutions to some of the issues you describe. For instance the exit pupil being limited by the objective size to magnification ratio, or the spherical aberrations that result from a large objective lens and short scope body can be mitigated with lens and coating technologies that have refractive index gradients. Also, the description of a scope as merely an occular and an objective lens is a bit of an oversimplification, as the there a number of lenses in between that can be (and are) added, with additional focal and image inversion points between the exit pupil and the objective lens. These lens systems can be very complex, and can be engineered to mitigate some of the effects you describe. The penalty is ofcourse cost, and parts complexity. I am particularly interested in the March 1-10x scopes that offer a parallax adjustment, and a dual focal plane design.
for sure, you can over come many of these issues as you can see with the 1-10x vuduu but the end result stands. it's a premium optic that performs like a 500 dollar optic simply by trying for a 10x
@@BrassFacts Perhaps the Vudu hasn't sufficiently overcome these issues, but what about the March 1-10x shorty with exposed turrets, parallex adjustment, and a dual focal plane design? Any plans to review it, or have you had it with 1-10x altogether?
@@toddinfl Don't necessarily disagree, but if features and specs on it work as advertised that $2600 buys alot of capability, and a lot more than comparably priced scopes.
I do have a 1--10 LPVO (Swampfox Arrowhead) And it serves my purposes just fine. The last 6 magnification levels Are used specifically for on-rifle surveying (it's a redundancy to my more powerful binos). My rifle is sighted at the 1x and 4x magnification levels, with the 1x being supplemented by the canted RDS (itself a redundancy, because I have yet to actually use it for hitting anything other than paper... it's a varmint rifle). The LPVO itself is excellent. I have no complaints about controls, eye box, clarity, etc etc. It even has 2 Night vision settings, which I have yet to use under NODs, but I do use in low light conditions. It always comes down to purpose- I built the redundancies into the rifle in order to lighten the entire load I have to carry (less gear on the chest rig and overall lighter kit). I do agree that 10x LPVOs are unnecessary, at least until they can lighten the load. My rifle is heavier than it NEEDS to be, but that extra weight was well placed and calculated into this particular build.
I made the mistake of buying a 1-10x for my first LPVO, was told there's no downside to more magification. On a flat range, indoors or on a sunny day, worked just fine. Get to my first 3 gun match, and it's overcast and drizzling on the long range, I can't even see the 500yrd target at 10x because there's so little light coming through, everything looked dark and fuzzy. Probably going ot swap to a 1-6, or eotech + magifier. The ammount of light lost due to physics at 10x absolutely makes it un-usable in less than ideal lighting.
yep. To many firearm reviews are shot in static environments, on 1-2 range trips The industry has gas lit itself to believe certain things that simply don't play out in even slightly variable environments
If you can find the space, try a credo 3-9x40 if you want that kind of magnification Used mine for years in early dawn/dusk and as long as you understand the hold ratio (mils/moa per dot is max magnification over current), you can still use em
Reasons to subscribe... - Informed conversation? - Thoughtful, practical knowledge? - "Feed the tamagotchi" ... BINGO! You and Hop are my super-sober, gun-world insiders. Keep up the great work!
Totally concur with your findings on 1-10x optics. Just got my 2.5-10x GLx from PA for my modernized 20" SAM-R build... and a Nova patch "Today we're gonna be reviewing a DOG"
I bought a GLX 2-10x from your SPR video and it's really good. Only downside is it's a pretty bulky optic compared to an LPVO and I feel like it's just itching to get caught or banged against something in the field - I'll note however that I personally don't see much of a need for a RDS on it, I've found the 2.5x to be very useable at close ranges.. I spent a long time trying to find a decent 1-10x and the Vudu came close but I had serious concerns about the reticle visibility at 1x. From most photos I've seen it can be hard to pick up. Not sure if you had the same feelings. I currently have two AR15s, a MK18 build with a simple RDS on it and then my 18" SPR build which is more-or-less the same as yours. I wish there was a way to combine these two but doing so causes "friction" like you mentioned. Sometimes it feels a bit silly to have 10x on an AR15 but it all comes down to standardization. 5.56 is widely used whereas .308 isn't as much. One thing I'm trying to decide on is a bipod for the 10x. I've got an Atlas CAL Tall for it and the quality is certainly there but while I like the extra length for prone I think I'd rather get the 6-9" version and throw on the leg extenders. How's the magpul bipod treating you? I think the length range is PERFECT, how's the cant adjustment on it? Pod loc on the atlas doesn't lock out cant as much as I'd like it to personally.
If it makes you feel better (it makes me feel better) SEALs and SpecOps guys have been using MK12s for years with that size optic on it (an optic that only a few years prior was in the category of sniper rifle sized optic) and there never seemed to be an issue of them getting caught or bumped.
Well done! Subjectively I've seen some of these issues with high mag LPVOs, but didn't know objectively how to quantify them. Thanks for throwing the science shit in there for us to learn!
Finally someone with the way of talking and math ive been trying to tell people for years now. someone on arfcom said with a 30mm tube you never want to go past 4x because you will suffer more than anything else with cheap glass like PA use
This is my absolute favorite channel on RUclips. You have so much valuable info, and you share it in such a comprehensive and comprehensible way. Thank you for what you do, I hope you keep doing this for a long, long time.
8X (or even 6X) is enough for almost anything you want to do with an AR. If I really need that 10X I'll go with a 2-10 and get a less compromised optic.
@@TerminalM193 No spotter? Then they have exceptional, top 0.01% distance vision acuity. Most people could not adequately ID something/someone with 4x at 500yds. Maybe "yes human, not a tractor." But not much more than that. Also, which marines, shooting 500yds routinely?
Good explanation. 10x magnification difference is insane to try and make. I'd take a 2x-10x at lowest magnification over a 1x-10x at lowest. 2x is really easy to use close up. Steyr AUG default scope is a 1.5x and it's incredibly easy to use close range.
I’ve used a TA31F, Eotech, and TA31rcoM4 during combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. Over the last few years I’ve owned the Razor 1-6, PST 1-6, Eotech exps, Trijicon TA-33, and several other optics. Ultimately, I’ve come full circle and wound up back with an ACOGta01NSN and an offset 509T on an arisaka mount. Although I liked both the Razor and the PST, I couldn’t shake the weight/bulk penalty for the compromised performance gained. “Hit the gym”…yeah I get it and can assure you I am in more than ok shape and am speaking from my own experiences in combat. A quick look at some of my pics from my first deployment compared to my last shows just how much gear I stripped off. Weight matters. Anyone who doesn’t appreciate that has likely not spent much time under load. The TA01 allows me to have precise crosshair reticle and excellent glass quality while maintaining a low profile and light weight. The built in BDC is matched to my 14.5 shooting trash M855 (it’s what I got and I got a lot). The offset 509T provides an excellent and familiar Eotech style reticle that I’m able to quickly pick up. All of this in a bombproof, lightweight package that carries well and allows me to easily control the battle space from 0-300m which is about as far as I have to worry about here in the northeast.
If you ever feel like some scope makers' number just don't make sense, you're not alone. IDK how the 3-18 is worse than the 4-24 with the same tube diameter and same objective lens, but somehow more magnification is lighter despite being longer, with significantly better exit pupil size, and a better FOV proportionally.
Best 2A channel going, you gotta dog, a jeep (although we gotta talk about those wheels) and great analysis on both guns and the end of the world. Sharpe dude, love the channel.
Picked up a Vortex gen 3 1-10 for the old price at liberty optics. Ended up selling it and going back to my 1-6 vortex gen 2. I have now come to appreciate the red dot/fixed magnifier combo. Great video; I always look forward to to seeing your new ones.
Interesting. I didn’t see much difference between the two, besides the obvious tighter eyebox at 10x on my Gen III. To be fair though, I’m no professional shooter
Tube size is not effect light transmission. The internal tube of the scope is still the same size in a larger tube scope. It just gives you more room to move the smaller tube inside the scope, giving you more adjustment.🎉
I've been running a 2-12x42 Athlon on my current "Piston SPR" concept rifle and it has me wondering why I ever thought a 1-8 or a 1-10 would be an option for doing anything past 200yds. I'm definitely in the ballpark that most people running a "high magnification" lpvo (which is kind of an oxymoron) don't really understand that a better erector with a larger objective lense, even at 2x, is going to give them a much better time at range. For me, it's either an EOTech with a Magnifier for a close up set up, an ACOG Stack for something in between, and a 2-12 or something similar with a decent size objective lens for an SPR. I haven't dabbled too much into anything further than a 5.56 SPR setup, but I'm pretty happy with the data I've been gathering on these three specific setups
How does the vudu 1-10x fare if we forget about the 8-10x range and consider it up to only 8x? I ask because there a very few 1-8x FFP LPVOs with objective lenses larger than 24mm. Fewer even that also have some wind holds in the reticle. Is the eye box at 8x on the vudu noticeably better than that of a 24mm 1-8x at max power? Thanks!
I've been rocking a swampfox arrowhead 1-10x on my deer rifle 2 deer seasons now. It has fish eye at x1 but that was expected. X10 is pretty good even of its just for shooting across a field. The guerilla dot reticle is pretty good when not illuminated but not perfect but max illumination has lasted around 80 hours so not bad. I knew already the tactical would eventually shift to MPVOs with canted red dots.
While I see your point I have adapted . Are you familiar with point shooting . Or" your hit box" . This is the distance and/or area you can confidently hit a target without sight engagement . Increasing the area of your hit box . It's also been referred to as heads up shooting . I really like my 10x lpvo my guy . Don't hurt my feelings
I'm starting become of the opinion that scopes like a 2.5-10 or 2-10 with a piggy backed red dot or offset red dot is a far more compelling choice than people realize. I really like most of the SFP 1-6s I've toyed with, but the only LPVO that worked as well on the short end that did the job of a red dot is a Trijicon Accupoint, and it was about as good as a red dot. I liked it a lot, but at longer ranges I would struggle due to the reticle design. I'm going red dot with a magnifier for now just because it fits my current needs best (close range is top priority, but I want magnification for the off chance it's needed). I'm looking at 1-6 optics, but if I feel like more than 6x is what I want on the top end I am not likely to go with an LPVO.
I would argue that people are making a similar mistake by thinking piggyback options are a solution It's a far weaker 1x solution due the nature off offset and piggybacks.
@@BrassFacts I've not actually used piggyback or offset. That's good to know though. I don't think there's an option on the market that doesn't compromise a lot one way or another though. People are obsessed with having an option that excels at everything, and that's just not possible right now. I think if you anticipate using more than 6x, MPVOs start to make a lot more sense. Your SPR scope is a good example. Does decently well up close, and is a lot more usable at range than any LPVO (even the really expensive ones). Heck, I've used a 3x hunting scope for close range hunting to great affect in the past (most fudd thing I'll say all day). Great video btw.
@@BrassFacts T.Rex arms made a video about using an offset red dot as a primary 1x and it's very compelling. The grain of salt is though that they're promoting their own offset mount in it which they sell, but the arguments made are worth considering I think
@@Chretze I think there's a difference between flat range usage as he described, and realistic scenarios. I'm not saying Trex is a unskilled flatranger. But he forgets sometimes what he can get away with, vs others, is not the same thing. (due to his skill) A good indicator is how infrequently we see offsets used in a professional setting over the piggyback. Shooting in a real life scenario is a muscle memory subconscious task. Aiming solutions not on the center line create issues in that regard. Yes on a drill you can make it work, very well infact. But when you're problem solving a real firefight I'm of the opinion that you'll default to your most comfortable firing solution (centerline optic)
@@BrassFacts Makes sense, it's all about training in the end. If you've done that drill with the offset red dot a million times, you'll pull it off under stress. Another downside nobody seems to be talking about with offset red dots is the asymmetry - You use your red dot for close range, and you typically don't engage close range targets when laying on the ground with the bipod out. You take cover at corners and an offset red dot only really works on one side, you just miss out on half of your cover opportunities. I'm torn, as with all things, there is no perfect solution and it's about finding a compromise. A compromise that's still gonna cost a thousand dollars if not more.
Spot on. Gun forum fish bowls online, crack me up being all about the new wiz-bang 1x10s as peak performance, and I will read the comments thinking to myself... tell me you don't use your platform outside of a bench on a square range without telling me you don't. I still prefer 1x4 & 1x6 for LPVOs. To your comment about illumination, check out the Leupold 1x4 with the pig-plex reticle. No illumination to it. And it does well without it. The thick sides pull your eye to the center and the thin circle around the thin cross-hair acts like a dot sight. Works well in dusk/dawn too and the circle doesn't obstruct your view, for more precision needs. All that said, I'm still in the preference camp of a 5x prism with a micro dot at the 12 o'clock. Been playing with a Vortex Spitfire 5x prism and a Holosun 509T on top for a while, and really like it for a general purpose rifle. The 509T works fairly well (factoring in shortcomings) for use passively under NODs as well. Caveat - That's with Gen3 WP tubes, so my mileage may vary differently from other folks with Gen2 or GP tubes.
I've sort of felt some of this intuitively for a while, but it was awesome to see the science and actually understand this now at a very basic level. Great video!
Do you think that a SFP 1-10 might be a better option as you don't have to compromise on the reticle at different magnification ranges? I am working with one right now and although it suffers from much of what you explained, I will say that I appreciate the static reticle sizing and usefulness.
could be better, maybe. But you do run into issues as 10x is sometimes to much, and for sure to much for run and gun type stuff. Now you generally don't need a true reticle for sub 200 yard shooting. But it's a thing to note.
I've been looking at the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x FFP and thinking of getting it for my 16 inch 5.56. What appeals to me about it is the following checklist: -More magnification than a 6x, since I'm looking to use this gun for distances above 500m -FFP, I like the BDC at zoom and the red ring it gives you at 1x -It has night vision settings for the illumination, that's intriguing to me Now given what was explained in this video, I wonder if this is too much of an overall compromise since it's not that expensive, still has that FFP, but at least it doesn't go up to 10x...
I'd advise staying away from 8x and up like the plague for an LPVO platform, especially if you want an actual worthwhile 1x. The magnification difference from 6 to 8 isn't nearly as beneficial as one might think, especially with all the negatives that immediately arise the second you switch from a 1-6 to a 1-8. If you actually want that increase in magnification more than your need of 1x then completely forget about the LPVO platform as a whole. You are MUCH better off looking into the 2x-10x market at that point. Far superior glass with usually your choice of sfp or ffp at a fraction of the cost of an LPVO that can even begin to compare in quality. You can even find some great deals on scopes that start at 1.25x or 1.5x that have more usable low end, close quarters magnification glass than most of the 1x claims from the LPVO market. I had to learn all this the hard way myself because I wanted a usable application as you described. Went through a PA 8x, 2 strike eagle 8x until seeing the insane clarity and benefits of switching away from the LPVO format to the 2x-10x format. Sadly, LPVO's are still behind the curve of being technologically applicable UNLESS you are willing to spend a minimum of $1,200 bucks and even at that point you still suffer either at 1x or 6-8x. Hopefully within the next year or so we'll have newer technology allowing for better budget to mid tier options.
Finding the right scope for your use is not about ticking boxes next to marketing hotspots/buzz phrases. It's not a contest of features, really -- it's a question of whether the whole package of the scope fits your uses. Compromises always must be struck, so doing a list of features is ignoring the pivotal point of -- what compromises are you willing to make? Not trying to be snarky -- trying to help you re-direct your efforts. And I know that gun media people are almost all, to a person, pitching a features-list perspective. They're not helping!
Yes they work fine. I imagine disregarding the razor 1-10 being overwhelmingly the most popular LPVO in the special forces community we are now at the point where people are just hating on 1-10 just to be contrarian I guess. I respect some of your opinions but in this I’ve heard it said by everyone who only shoots for fun and no one who shoots for work or treats it like a lifestyle .
I’ll stick w my PA SFP 1-6x then. That’s all I think I need in the woods of the NE. Thanks for the info. I think my 1-6 is great for what it is and what I need.
I honestly think a 1-4 or 1-6 LPVO is all you need for a general purpose carbine. If you need more magnification for an SPR/SDM type role I’d go with a mid range 3-15 or 4-16 of some kind.
My 243 Winchester AR10 runs a 10x42 SWFA Super Sniper and an offset dot. I want so badly to run a top mounted dot, but the SWFA has super tall turrets and I'm too stubborn to change scopes lol. It's primarily a deer rifle, but I can tell you that the red dot has bagged me deer that I would have lost otherwise. Everyone hunts here, the deer are keenly aware of humans and you'll rarely get a clean shot over 100 yards. The vast majority of my deer were shot at 30 yards or less, and had to be snap shots before they smelled/saw/heard me and hauled ass.
@@djcoopes7569 the upper receiver itself came from Bear Creek. I forget who I ordered the barrel from, though. It holds about .75 MOA accuracy pretty reliably, and the recoil is lower than 308, but not quite like 5.56. It's pretty similar to shooting an AK, imo. BCA actually has a complete 243 upper, but I'd recommend changing the gas block and bolt if you run with them.
@@BuckFoeJiden nah I'm just curious mate, can't have "military appearance" firearms in my state, let alone self loading ones, so for now its just a pipedream.
@@djcoopes7569 I hope you're able to move out of that state soon man. A very close friend of mine just left California for Texas, and he's never been happier! I left Virginia for Tennessee about ten years ago when I left the Army, and I'm glad I did. Another friend back in VA was just denied a CCW permit from a "2A" judge shortly after a trial where he beat a homicide charge on self defense. The reasoning for denying his CCW was a misdemeanor that's been on his record for almost 5 years... and it was a firearms charge. I forget exactly what it was now, but it was small potatoes. So now he's got meth head family members of the guy he shot in self defense, and he can't get a concealed weapon permit... luckily VA is an open carry state, but open carry just makes you a target so... :/ Leave if you can bud, but if you can't, I get it. Especially with the economy the way it is.
Excellent analysis! Maybe you could answer a question I have: I'm trying to decide between 2 LPVO's of the same model but in 2 different magnification ranges (1-6x and 1-8x) and I'll be using it primarily in the middle of its magnification range...which would have better image quality, larger eye box, brightness, etc. at that same magnification setting?
I do agree, but I have found I love the 1-10 razor on a 13” scar 17. I originally had it on a KAC CQB before I realized that I was just fine with a red dot or an Elcan out to it’s effective range. I think with a short, higher caliber like .308 that can be used both for CQB and out to 700 is about the only good use case
How do you like the Razor? Asking since you commented almost a year ago. I just purchased my SCAR 17 and have been watching videos on optics for the past week and am still undecided…
I never understood people who try to push LPVOs so far, considering the diminishing returns. 1-6x is ideal for mitigating the downsides and maximizing the upsides. 1-8x can be justified, but has issues. Anything above? Just get a 4-20x or something else without a 1x setting. We are limited by physics, so unless you can control how light refracts, we have to be realistic with what we can make.
I love my 1-10 razor, but I treat it like the SCO, I PID on max zoom and only shoot on 6x or less. I love my MK6 3-18 with a piggyback T2. It does just as good for for a fighting rifle but It’s more to deal with size wise
This is why during my research into optics I have for the most part totally written off LPVOs. As the closing statement was kind of eluding to; if you are only ever going to be using 1x most of the time and sometimes going to 3x or 4x and very very rarely going to anything higher you should just get a red dot with a QD magnifier you can put on or take off as needed. Then if you are going to be almost always using the higher levels of magnification just get a scope and piggy back or offset a red dot for closer shots (they can help line up shots too). However, if you really want an LPVO then stick with a 1-4 or a 1-6. And really in the civilian world 90% of people dont need more then about 4x anyway on a rifle. In hunting more then 4x can be useful to be sure you are hitting exactly where you want or if your vision is not what it used to be but most game is taken well under 100 yards anyway, and if you cant hit a 10" box at the equivalent of 20 yards or less with no magnification then you need more practice. In a SHTF situation the same applies. If you are taking shots out longer then 100 yards you are unlikely in an actual defensive situation, and if you are able to hit a paper target with just a red dot or irons at 100 yards then with 3x or 4x you should be able to do the same out to a couple hundred yards. That 10% of people in the civilian world that might need more then 4x are competition shooters, long range game hunters, and not much else.
I've personally been in the market for a new scope for my American Ranch, and while those 1-10x LPVOs are interesting, like you said, there's just too much compromise. I landed on a 2-12x from Athlon instead, and a 6x difference instead of a 10x difference I think will do worlds for optics quality - though with the price of the optic I'm still not expecting too much. Great vid!
This video is really right on time for me. I've been pondering the question about the actual usefulness of having a 1-6 or 1-8, when 2x is rarely used, if at all. So I have been thinking about buying more of a 2x- or 3x- and if I needed 1x, I'd just use a red dot...
I had a 1-10 with an offset red dot. Ditched it, felt too bulky and like too much going on. I feel like for a GPR carbine an Eotech with the new G45 would be much better.
So, if you spend the absurd money ($2700-3000) for a March Tactical Shorty 1-10, you can get a good 1-10. I have the gen 1 of it, and it successfully has a great 1x, good illumination, good reticle, excellent weight, and a passable 10x. Its a good 10x if you are okay going prone or supporting in some kind of way every time you go all the way up to 10x. The new gen 2 is better in all these categories except weight. The thing is, its just good. For $3k. $3k for a good scope is kind of a shit deal. The clarity is good, but not as good as cheaper Japanese glassed optics with smaller magnification ratios. This is a scope which leans more towards the better 1x, by having the 24mm objective, leaving you with a 2.4mm exit pupil on 10x. Hence why you really want to be prone any time you go to 10x. Ultimately I think the March is a good scope, and I plan to continue using and training with it, but it honestly was not worth the money.
I totally agree 1x 10 is no longer low power I think they topped out at 1x6 and about all of them that have a decent reticle weigh over 20 ounces unless you spend some crazy money .
My atacr 1-8 is the absolute limits of what I've seen lpvos be capable of. Zoom ratio is a serious spec that you can't ignore. The reticle also works without illumination, at 1x or 8x just fine
I'm running optics in the 4-14 range over LPVOs now, with a top mounted red dot. Between a PA 4-14x44 FFP with amazing reticle choices and a Holosun 507c and mounts, you're still under a thousand bucks easily.
That wide zoom ratio is a tough one. I almost went full fudd and put a 3-9 on my rifle. Decided on a 1-6. Looking back probably should have went for the higher magnification. The quest continues...
@@mrs.vasquezz That's completely dependent on tube diameter, glass quality and size. From personal use I do find the 2-10 to be far superior to 3-9 that I've personally used but that also comes down to the applicable, intended use.
@@TerminalM193 your response misses many, many points. First, when comparing the two, some scopes marketed as a 3-9X are actually not that at all. Same for the 2.5-10x scopes. Some companies tell you that’s what it is, but in reality it may be 2.2-9.5x or something of the sort. If it is truly a “2-10x” which most marketed as such aren’t, that’s a 5x zoom. Typically optical clarity suffers on one end or the other and light transmission will be reduced. But lumping all 3-9X scopes together is as silly as lumping all 1-6x scopes together. Each one is an individual. Some of the brightest, clearest scopes ever made have been 3-9x optics. When one doesn’t have a lot to spend, there can be more “bang for the buck” in this zoom range. Back a few years ago, Meopta contracted some 3-9x40 scopes with a 1” tube for Zeiss. They released this model in the “Conquest” line. Zeiss made their own 2.5-10x in the line, but it wasn’t as popular as the 3-9x despite beating it on paper by a long shot. Why? First, it was lighter by a few ounces. It was slightly shorter, but adequately long enough for ring spacing on a magnum action. But most importantly, it has 4” of eye relief that was consistent through the magnification range. The eye box was VERY forgiving. Meanwhile, the 10x version had a listed 3.5” of eye relief, but using it, it was maybe true on the bottom end, but it was closer to 3” on 10x. The eye box ended up being very tight relative to the 3-9x version. What did this scope that was superior on paper get you? A fractional increase in top magnification of less than 1x?
First off, I really enjoy your content. Well thought out with great editing. Secondly, I agree. Even with a high end LPVO there is still some to be desired. For those curious about high end((not bragging)promise).. I run a 1-8 Nightforce ATACR and I still find those issue mentioned. My biggest peeve is not having parallax adjustment. It has great glass and a great reticle and it does the job I ask of it, but again, still some things to be desired. IMO a 2.5-10 is the way...
I want to eventually do a video on it. I've run a lot of 2.5-10x And I'm of the opinion that the 2-10x has just as many problems in reserve. I think it's important not to get hung up on getting the perfect solution. Just a workable one I just think the 10x is a example of something that is mostly unsavable.
Going to buy the athlon helos 2-12 for my hunting ar. Not perfect but should fit that role well. If I end up with a 6arc or some other caliber like that I might consider a 3-18 as well. Not fighting rifles though.
you tried the swampfox 1-10 lpvo? nutnfancy has been raving about it. Apparently the company designed it and gave it to actual operators before releasing it to the public. Its 2fp and while some people have an issue with its max brightness i dont have any issues with it. indoor range or even out on families farm land which has a lot of shade. Comparatively to my fav optic right now the meopta 2.5-15 x 44 (clearest class ive ever looked through and best eye relief). The swamp fox has 75-80% of the clarity across the zoom range and maybe 90-95% at 1-4x ish. I bought one for a budget hunting rifle and one of my ar15s. The bdc is the best crosshair it comes in imo and provides quick and easy target aq. Now i dont have an area to really ever shoot past 200 yards so i don't really need to care about holding over. I'll just make elevation and wind adjustments on the scope if the time ever comes. I agree the perfect lpvo 1-10 may not exist. but i think the swamp fox is pretty close to being there. Maybe if they worked with meopta we could get a perfect 1-10
In the case of the Trijicon Credo, the 1-10x is actually lighter and smaller than the 1-8x. Doesn’t that make the 1-10x the better scope than the 1-8x scope even if you’re only using it in the 1-8x range?
Yo brassfacts, great video as usual. On another topic, How is that sonogear full power PEQ15 clone holding up? I’m buying one soon, but wanted to see if you’ve had any problems since your video on it?
The optics math is something people don't talk about enough. Elcans have something like a 32-36 mm objective lens and at 4x that puts them right near the maximum performance you can get in low light. It's not going to magically give you extra light but it will be noticeable off flat ranges in daylight.
Eotech exps 2 + vortex 6x magnifier all day, can range target instantly using 2 dot, got 6x magnifier for long range, can pop it off when not needed(night shooting/cqb). Beat that, I dare you.
@@BrassFacts I prefer the red dots for the day bright illumination and basically infinite eye box. So far as I know, none of the 1-6s can match that. Am I wrong about that?
@@BrassFacts well, a lot of the points do apply. And at least in store I've never seen a 1-6 that impressed me at 6x. A half priced 3-9x typically looks better at 9x than a 1-6x does at 6x, and I imagine that's because of all the reasons you laid out. I figure a cheaper 6x magnifier makes more sense.
IMHO, if one needs more magnification than 4-6x, use binos or a dedicated scoped rifle. If you want higher mag with up close capabilities, a scope with piggyback or offset. Most would be better served with a RDS and magnifier or ACOG. Chasing 1x with higher mag will result in both coming up short. Figure out what you need your rifle to do and keep it in that role or you’ll end up with a 11.5 loaded with a D60 and a 1-10 LPVO with MRO stacked on top. Enjoy humping that monstrosity around.
Can we get a video on recommendations for AR10 platforms ? 16” ones maybe, their viability as a force multiplier, especially solo or in a small group, what optics would be good for them for what roles, would it make sense to run a rifle scope 2.5-10, 3.5-18, 6-24, etc plus an RMR or other 1x side dot, or maybe as a battle rifle with some kind of dot plus magnifier? The ruger SFAR, the Sig 716i, aero m5, etc sort of have the market for these kind of guns opening up and a lot of us ie me are wondering your thoughts on having one of these to go alongside a 5.56, if it would even be worth bringing a second gun, when it might make sense to take in place of the 5.56, etc. .308 is still flooded all around the country and there are some really nice and decent priced platforms to be had in it, and I’d love to hear your take!!!
It kinda can't Because of how the lenses do fuckery to yield 1x You would just drop the 1x or even 2x requirement and get a scope with a larger objective The problem is the zoom ratio relative to the size of the tube letting light in If you would not buy a 4-40x32 Why on earth would you think a 1-10x24 would work well
Great explanation of some complicated topics. How would this relate to a more powerful optic, such as a 3.5-18 ffp, or similar 'higher' base magnification and much higher top end magnification scopes? I've been looking at the Vudu 3.5-18 ffp.
do the math ( mean that in a non-condescending way) That way you can check for yourself. Since we don't care about 1x that's a lot less stress on the system But exit pupil (Obj/Mag) and, zoom factor Both still matter. It's worth noting most of these scopes are very nice, so the zoom factor can be mostly mitigated. The Exit pupil will remain. While most long range scopes get used in a much more static environment, it still may be a issue.
I got a monstrum g3 1-6x24 ffp lpvo and I love it works absolutely great for everything I need and I was able to get it for less then 200 it's only 6,000 series aluminum but has held up great. I'm able to get sub MOA at 100 yards with my Armalite M153GN18 my other rifle has an at3 red dot and I also have a monstrum g3 5-26? Can't remember the top end of it but that one I feel has serious issues on top magnification but that doesn't bother me at all cuz I got it for free it's great up to 18- 20x. I'd love to actually own some none China glass optics but I'm poor, disabled and a full time single father of 2 little ones.
I used to be a monstrum fan until I took my very first carbine training course. Both my monstrum failed miserably when subjected to even the lightest bit of hard use by losing zero, poor glass coatings, and functional design.... I also had no clue what clean and clear glass looked like until that day as well. I was able to look through a students razor HD and another students vortex viper Gen 2 1-6x LPVO's. The difference in clarity, reticle design and brightness are so massive that looking through anything inferior is just straight up depressing...
This was a great video and explanation. I’ve always thought of LPVO’s being for your shorter AR’s and maxing at 6x for target identification more then try to touch a 500 yard target. Anything more should be a designated rifle for those long shots with a designated scope. I love my vortex strike eagle 1-6 because I can use it in home defense and be able to use it in the rural area around me as well. Anything far, I’ll more then likely have time to grab a designated rifle or have planned to have it on me already
@@InvidiousIgnoramus none of these acronyms existed before…dudes keep making stuff up. 2-10x used to be considered pretty dang high power. What a stupid term.
I like the form factor and being able to get a little extra PID with the 10x. Magnification isn’t always about being able to shoot at that magnification. Extra magnification of the 10x is nice for a little extra for observation
I thought that you would be interested that I took an LPVO taught by active green beret's, they referenced this video and they thought it was BS. I think off the bat their community writes folks off that do not have any combat experience, and they kind of said the same about you. To give you credit they did say that you "looked" like you knew what you were doing. I didn't challenge their line of thought at all (I'm not interested in that smoke), even though I do agree with your premise; but rather asked them questions to get their line of thinking. One question I asked was "how important is the 1x setting"; they essentially said not at all and they would rather have a red dot, but I don't understand the reasoning of dealing with the engineering negatives to achieve a 1x if it is not important. I will definitely be avoiding a 1-10x for my dedicated precision build, and honestly feel that 1-6 is still ideal for my LPVO "general purpose" applications. I looked though a couple of 1-10x of different makes (including a razor gen3, atibal, Sig), and did not love them at all. Some other interesting take-aways from their course is those dudes can straight shoot, and have a ton of intelligence when it comes to ranging unknown distances using common objects (a tire, shopping cart, random stuff). They are also magicians on the turrets. Another take-away is they seem to not give a damn about what weapons weigh; whereas, it seems to be a pretty big concern to civilian shooters. I thought it was cool that your video is creating dialogue, even if everyone does not agree it still is important to re-evaluate our thought process and how we spend our money!
I fell for the 1-10 meme as well. I was floored when I realized the eyebox on my Gen 1 PA 1-8 was better than this $2000 Vortex 1-10. Simple physics. Can't get around it. I think 1-8 is fine, and am looking at an ATACR.
@@RADIOACTIVEBUNY Yes it looks probably better un lit at low mag. I dont have one in the old flavor to compare in real life.The new reticle hands down is awesome though. Eventually I will try their NX8 as its cheaper and can get the new reticle in it.
I like my Vortex HD III on a DMR/Battle Rifle role out to about 500m but I was mostly shopping for the reticle with the ability to shoot short range effectively
P4xi gang.... If I truly need more magnification then it's for bolt gun / hunting. The 1x-4x range is so good that for everything out to 400 yards is cake. The eyebox for the p4xi is still the best I've ever seen on an LPVO too.
A point to consider. It is not impossible to make a 10x LPVO.
But it just hasn't really been done, and it absolutely hasn't been done when you consider the important aspect of cost, availability, and execution.
One day this video will not be true, but having messed with even the 4000 dollar 1-10x's I still argue that those are only marginally better than say, the 1-10x vuduu, while being 2x (or more) of the cost.
Would having a larger 35mm tube potentially help much? That's what Atibal has done with their MPVO, but there's not a lot of in depth reviews of that thing.
Absolutey concur. I don't have a platform where I need crappy 10x and crappy 1x at the same time when I can have literally any other option. haha the MRO showing up was amazing. Good conversations as always! -Walsh
Amen! I am in the market for an LPVO right now actually. I’m waiting for my bonus in March and I’m hoping for 3500 so I can get an optic and a dead air sandman (been dying for one for years). Anywho it’s all going on my project rifle that I have been slowly upgrading and building for the last 5 years so I want something really nice. I was debating between the vortex 1-10, the nightforce atacr, vudu 1-10, or a trijicon sco. Slowly i am coming around to the sco. 8x is plenty for my block 2 upper and if the marines selected it then it must be the absolute cutting edge of best of the best because they replaced the ACOG with the VCOG (insane because the ACOG is the best combat optic ever made). I think 1-8 will be fine. The vortex looks awesome and I hear amazing reviews about it but I want something that takes AA and I hear the same complaints a lot that the vortex is as good as decent will ever get for a 1-10 right now
I went with a 2.5-10 vudu instead of going for the 1-10. The 44mm lense really makes a difference. Loosing the low end isnt even missed honestly. Can always offset with a red dot
Traded my vudu 1-10 for my buddies vudu 2.5-10 for my SPR. Very happy. Concur with red dot.
There's a big physics reason for this (I'm an optical engineer). Your pupil is about 3-8mm. 6x4mm is 24mm, the exit aperture of most LPVOs. The physics/Ray trace here is essentially parallel lines coming in and parallel lines coming out focused by your eyeball. No matter how magic your optical design (and magnification ratios over 6x are a bitch to design regardless of the system application) is you're not getting around that. Till you start seeing the bells at the front open up they're going to suck past 6x.
Same. I’m trying out a 2-12 with an offset dot, other than weight, seems to do everything I need it to
@@wesjohnston8286 you using the swampfox scope? Lol
@@wesjohnston8286 what size objective lens does that have? We need more details please
Great video! You accurately and succinctly describe the inherent trade-offs and limitations of high magnification ratios inherent in LPVOs. However, there are solutions to some of the issues you describe. For instance the exit pupil being limited by the objective size to magnification ratio, or the spherical aberrations that result from a large objective lens and short scope body can be mitigated with lens and coating technologies that have refractive index gradients. Also, the description of a scope as merely an occular and an objective lens is a bit of an oversimplification, as the there a number of lenses in between that can be (and are) added, with additional focal and image inversion points between the exit pupil and the objective lens. These lens systems can be very complex, and can be engineered to mitigate some of the effects you describe. The penalty is ofcourse cost, and parts complexity. I am particularly interested in the March 1-10x scopes that offer a parallax adjustment, and a dual focal plane design.
for sure, you can over come many of these issues as you can see with the 1-10x vuduu
but the end result stands. it's a premium optic that performs like a 500 dollar optic simply by trying for a 10x
@@BrassFacts Perhaps the Vudu hasn't sufficiently overcome these issues, but what about the March 1-10x shorty with exposed turrets, parallex adjustment, and a dual focal plane design? Any plans to review it, or have you had it with 1-10x altogether?
@@mohawk3371 probably out if his budget
@@mohawk3371 2600 bux for lpvo? I'd rather put it into preps.
@@toddinfl Don't necessarily disagree, but if features and specs on it work as advertised that $2600 buys alot of capability, and a lot more than comparably priced scopes.
I have thought about this a lot and i came to pretty much the same conclusion. I have a 2.5-10X and it does everything i need it to do well.
I do have a 1--10 LPVO (Swampfox Arrowhead) And it serves my purposes just fine. The last 6 magnification levels Are used specifically for on-rifle surveying (it's a redundancy to my more powerful binos). My rifle is sighted at the 1x and 4x magnification levels, with the 1x being supplemented by the canted RDS (itself a redundancy, because I have yet to actually use it for hitting anything other than paper... it's a varmint rifle). The LPVO itself is excellent. I have no complaints about controls, eye box, clarity, etc etc. It even has 2 Night vision settings, which I have yet to use under NODs, but I do use in low light conditions.
It always comes down to purpose- I built the redundancies into the rifle in order to lighten the entire load I have to carry (less gear on the chest rig and overall lighter kit).
I do agree that 10x LPVOs are unnecessary, at least until they can lighten the load. My rifle is heavier than it NEEDS to be, but that extra weight was well placed and calculated into this particular build.
I made the mistake of buying a 1-10x for my first LPVO, was told there's no downside to more magification. On a flat range, indoors or on a sunny day, worked just fine. Get to my first 3 gun match, and it's overcast and drizzling on the long range, I can't even see the 500yrd target at 10x because there's so little light coming through, everything looked dark and fuzzy.
Probably going ot swap to a 1-6, or eotech + magifier. The ammount of light lost due to physics at 10x absolutely makes it un-usable in less than ideal lighting.
yep. To many firearm reviews are shot in static environments, on 1-2 range trips
The industry has gas lit itself to believe certain things that simply don't play out in even slightly variable environments
If you can find the space, try a credo 3-9x40 if you want that kind of magnification
Used mine for years in early dawn/dusk and as long as you understand the hold ratio (mils/moa per dot is max magnification over current), you can still use em
@@DD-hz3ts I just put a Credo 4-16x50 on a 20" Grendel, amazed at the low light clarity.
Red dot magnifier is even worse for raining conditions cause that’s 4 lenses to mess with
Reasons to subscribe...
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You and Hop are my super-sober, gun-world insiders.
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Absolutely agree with all the criticisms in the video. 1-6X being the limit for me, and the only exception being the VCOG 1-8X MRAD, but just barely.
Totally concur with your findings on 1-10x optics. Just got my 2.5-10x GLx from PA for my modernized 20" SAM-R build... and a Nova patch
"Today we're gonna be reviewing a DOG"
I bought a GLX 2-10x from your SPR video and it's really good. Only downside is it's a pretty bulky optic compared to an LPVO and I feel like it's just itching to get caught or banged against something in the field - I'll note however that I personally don't see much of a need for a RDS on it, I've found the 2.5x to be very useable at close ranges.. I spent a long time trying to find a decent 1-10x and the Vudu came close but I had serious concerns about the reticle visibility at 1x. From most photos I've seen it can be hard to pick up. Not sure if you had the same feelings.
I currently have two AR15s, a MK18 build with a simple RDS on it and then my 18" SPR build which is more-or-less the same as yours. I wish there was a way to combine these two but doing so causes "friction" like you mentioned. Sometimes it feels a bit silly to have 10x on an AR15 but it all comes down to standardization. 5.56 is widely used whereas .308 isn't as much.
One thing I'm trying to decide on is a bipod for the 10x. I've got an Atlas CAL Tall for it and the quality is certainly there but while I like the extra length for prone I think I'd rather get the 6-9" version and throw on the leg extenders. How's the magpul bipod treating you? I think the length range is PERFECT, how's the cant adjustment on it? Pod loc on the atlas doesn't lock out cant as much as I'd like it to personally.
If it makes you feel better (it makes me feel better) SEALs and SpecOps guys have been using MK12s for years with that size optic on it (an optic that only a few years prior was in the category of sniper rifle sized optic) and there never seemed to be an issue of them getting caught or bumped.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz True, but they've got $3000 Nightforces and I've got a $750 primaryarms
@@hxdaro the snagging shouldn't really vary much between the two branda, are you trying to say the NF is more durable?
@@roryross3878 yeah I'd wager a nightforce is more durable than primaryarms lol
Well done! Subjectively I've seen some of these issues with high mag LPVOs, but didn't know objectively how to quantify them. Thanks for throwing the science shit in there for us to learn!
Finally someone with the way of talking and math ive been trying to tell people for years now.
someone on arfcom said with a 30mm tube you never want to go past 4x because you will suffer more than anything else with cheap glass like PA use
Honestly I still swear by my old PA 1-8 but it’s got its limits.
Every optic has give and take. Thanks for the discussion.
This is my absolute favorite channel on RUclips. You have so much valuable info, and you share it in such a comprehensive and comprehensible way. Thank you for what you do, I hope you keep doing this for a long, long time.
The simplified technical explanation is appreciated.
8X (or even 6X) is enough for almost anything you want to do with an AR. If I really need that 10X I'll go with a 2-10 and get a less compromised optic.
Good luck IDing targets at a distance with a 6x.
@@lucastonoli3256 you’re a silly goose
@@HotelBravo556 gooses are pretty cool.
@@lucastonoli3256 Marines did just fine identifying all the way out to 500 yards with a simple 4x acog.
@@TerminalM193 No spotter? Then they have exceptional, top 0.01% distance vision acuity. Most people could not adequately ID something/someone with 4x at 500yds. Maybe "yes human, not a tractor." But not much more than that.
Also, which marines, shooting 500yds routinely?
Good explanation. 10x magnification difference is insane to try and make. I'd take a 2x-10x at lowest magnification over a 1x-10x at lowest. 2x is really easy to use close up. Steyr AUG default scope is a 1.5x and it's incredibly easy to use close range.
I’ve used a TA31F, Eotech, and TA31rcoM4 during combat in Afghanistan and Iraq. Over the last few years I’ve owned the Razor 1-6, PST 1-6, Eotech exps, Trijicon TA-33, and several other optics.
Ultimately, I’ve come full circle and wound up back with an ACOGta01NSN and an offset 509T on an arisaka mount. Although I liked both the Razor and the PST, I couldn’t shake the weight/bulk penalty for the compromised performance gained. “Hit the gym”…yeah I get it and can assure you I am in more than ok shape and am speaking from my own experiences in combat. A quick look at some of my pics from my first deployment compared to my last shows just how much gear I stripped off. Weight matters. Anyone who doesn’t appreciate that has likely not spent much time under load.
The TA01 allows me to have precise crosshair reticle and excellent glass quality while maintaining a low profile and light weight. The built in BDC is matched to my 14.5 shooting trash M855 (it’s what I got and I got a lot). The offset 509T provides an excellent and familiar Eotech style reticle that I’m able to quickly pick up. All of this in a bombproof, lightweight package that carries well and allows me to easily control the battle space from 0-300m which is about as far as I have to worry about here in the northeast.
If you ever feel like some scope makers' number just don't make sense, you're not alone. IDK how the 3-18 is worse than the 4-24 with the same tube diameter and same objective lens, but somehow more magnification is lighter despite being longer, with significantly better exit pupil size, and a better FOV proportionally.
Best 2A channel going, you gotta dog, a jeep (although we gotta talk about those wheels) and great analysis on both guns and the end of the world. Sharpe dude, love the channel.
I bought it used as shown out of high school. In retrospect it was the wrong car.
@@BrassFacts Keep the jeep man, looks like a great ride for where you are located. Keep up the good content brother, appreciate you!
Picked up a Vortex gen 3 1-10 for the old price at liberty optics. Ended up selling it and going back to my 1-6 vortex gen 2. I have now come to appreciate the red dot/fixed magnifier combo. Great video; I always look forward to to seeing your new ones.
Interesting. I didn’t see much difference between the two, besides the obvious tighter eyebox at 10x on my Gen III. To be fair though, I’m no professional shooter
Personal opinion, anything over 10x needs parallax adjustment. 2-12 and 2-10 are superior optics for .223/5.56.
I'd like to see a 2-8x made with a ~32mm or so objective.
@@prototype3aLeupold makes one
Wow I have always understood these principles in my mind but you explaining as helped me tremendously!
Tube size is not effect light transmission. The internal tube of the scope is still the same size in a larger tube scope. It just gives you more room to move the smaller tube inside the scope, giving you more adjustment.🎉
Your steadily approaching acceptable ratios of you to Nova. Keep up the good work
This is my favorite gun channel. Very informative and professional. You are saving us a lot of time and money. Thank You!
I've been running a 2-12x42 Athlon on my current "Piston SPR" concept rifle and it has me wondering why I ever thought a 1-8 or a 1-10 would be an option for doing anything past 200yds. I'm definitely in the ballpark that most people running a "high magnification" lpvo (which is kind of an oxymoron) don't really understand that a better erector with a larger objective lense, even at 2x, is going to give them a much better time at range. For me, it's either an EOTech with a Magnifier for a close up set up, an ACOG Stack for something in between, and a 2-12 or something similar with a decent size objective lens for an SPR. I haven't dabbled too much into anything further than a 5.56 SPR setup, but I'm pretty happy with the data I've been gathering on these three specific setups
How does the vudu 1-10x fare if we forget about the 8-10x range and consider it up to only 8x? I ask because there a very few 1-8x FFP LPVOs with objective lenses larger than 24mm. Fewer even that also have some wind holds in the reticle. Is the eye box at 8x on the vudu noticeably better than that of a 24mm 1-8x at max power? Thanks!
I've been rocking a swampfox arrowhead 1-10x on my deer rifle 2 deer seasons now. It has fish eye at x1 but that was expected. X10 is pretty good even of its just for shooting across a field.
The guerilla dot reticle is pretty good when not illuminated but not perfect but max illumination has lasted around 80 hours so not bad.
I knew already the tactical would eventually shift to MPVOs with canted red dots.
While I see your point I have adapted . Are you familiar with point shooting . Or" your hit box" . This is the distance and/or area you can confidently hit a target without sight engagement . Increasing the area of your hit box . It's also been referred to as heads up shooting . I really like my 10x lpvo my guy . Don't hurt my feelings
I'm starting become of the opinion that scopes like a 2.5-10 or 2-10 with a piggy backed red dot or offset red dot is a far more compelling choice than people realize.
I really like most of the SFP 1-6s I've toyed with, but the only LPVO that worked as well on the short end that did the job of a red dot is a Trijicon Accupoint, and it was about as good as a red dot. I liked it a lot, but at longer ranges I would struggle due to the reticle design.
I'm going red dot with a magnifier for now just because it fits my current needs best (close range is top priority, but I want magnification for the off chance it's needed). I'm looking at 1-6 optics, but if I feel like more than 6x is what I want on the top end I am not likely to go with an LPVO.
I would argue that people are making a similar mistake by thinking piggyback options are a solution
It's a far weaker 1x solution due the nature off offset and piggybacks.
@@BrassFacts I've not actually used piggyback or offset. That's good to know though.
I don't think there's an option on the market that doesn't compromise a lot one way or another though. People are obsessed with having an option that excels at everything, and that's just not possible right now.
I think if you anticipate using more than 6x, MPVOs start to make a lot more sense.
Your SPR scope is a good example. Does decently well up close, and is a lot more usable at range than any LPVO (even the really expensive ones). Heck, I've used a 3x hunting scope for close range hunting to great affect in the past (most fudd thing I'll say all day).
Great video btw.
@@BrassFacts T.Rex arms made a video about using an offset red dot as a primary 1x and it's very compelling. The grain of salt is though that they're promoting their own offset mount in it which they sell, but the arguments made are worth considering I think
@@Chretze I think there's a difference between flat range usage as he described, and realistic scenarios.
I'm not saying Trex is a unskilled flatranger.
But he forgets sometimes what he can get away with, vs others, is not the same thing. (due to his skill)
A good indicator is how infrequently we see offsets used in a professional setting over the piggyback.
Shooting in a real life scenario is a muscle memory subconscious task. Aiming solutions not on the center line create issues in that regard. Yes on a drill you can make it work, very well infact. But when you're problem solving a real firefight I'm of the opinion that you'll default to your most comfortable firing solution (centerline optic)
@@BrassFacts Makes sense, it's all about training in the end. If you've done that drill with the offset red dot a million times, you'll pull it off under stress.
Another downside nobody seems to be talking about with offset red dots is the asymmetry - You use your red dot for close range, and you typically don't engage close range targets when laying on the ground with the bipod out. You take cover at corners and an offset red dot only really works on one side, you just miss out on half of your cover opportunities.
I'm torn, as with all things, there is no perfect solution and it's about finding a compromise.
A compromise that's still gonna cost a thousand dollars if not more.
100% agree. I love my GLx 2.5-10X and off-set red-dot on my 6.5 grendel and 5.56 SPR's.
Spot on. Gun forum fish bowls online, crack me up being all about the new wiz-bang 1x10s as peak performance, and I will read the comments thinking to myself... tell me you don't use your platform outside of a bench on a square range without telling me you don't. I still prefer 1x4 & 1x6 for LPVOs. To your comment about illumination, check out the Leupold 1x4 with the pig-plex reticle. No illumination to it. And it does well without it. The thick sides pull your eye to the center and the thin circle around the thin cross-hair acts like a dot sight. Works well in dusk/dawn too and the circle doesn't obstruct your view, for more precision needs. All that said, I'm still in the preference camp of a 5x prism with a micro dot at the 12 o'clock. Been playing with a Vortex Spitfire 5x prism and a Holosun 509T on top for a while, and really like it for a general purpose rifle. The 509T works fairly well (factoring in shortcomings) for use passively under NODs as well. Caveat - That's with Gen3 WP tubes, so my mileage may vary differently from other folks with Gen2 or GP tubes.
I've sort of felt some of this intuitively for a while, but it was awesome to see the science and actually understand this now at a very basic level. Great video!
All good things to think about. We live in good times when we can even have these conversations.
From what it sounds like 1x6 or 1x8 is about where lpvo get capped off on what they are capable of before running into other sets of problems
agreed, shit, I'd say the 1-4x needs more love.
Do you think that a SFP 1-10 might be a better option as you don't have to compromise on the reticle at different magnification ranges? I am working with one right now and although it suffers from much of what you explained, I will say that I appreciate the static reticle sizing and usefulness.
could be better, maybe. But you do run into issues as 10x is sometimes to much, and for sure to much for run and gun type stuff.
Now you generally don't need a true reticle for sub 200 yard shooting. But it's a thing to note.
@Brass Facts good point. Good to remember that military snipers used to use fixed power 10x scopes for long range engagements. Might be too much.
I've been looking at the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x FFP and thinking of getting it for my 16 inch 5.56.
What appeals to me about it is the following checklist:
-More magnification than a 6x, since I'm looking to use this gun for distances above 500m
-FFP, I like the BDC at zoom and the red ring it gives you at 1x
-It has night vision settings for the illumination, that's intriguing to me
Now given what was explained in this video, I wonder if this is too much of an overall compromise since it's not that expensive, still has that FFP, but at least it doesn't go up to 10x...
I'd advise staying away from 8x and up like the plague for an LPVO platform, especially if you want an actual worthwhile 1x. The magnification difference from 6 to 8 isn't nearly as beneficial as one might think, especially with all the negatives that immediately arise the second you switch from a 1-6 to a 1-8. If you actually want that increase in magnification more than your need of 1x then completely forget about the LPVO platform as a whole. You are MUCH better off looking into the 2x-10x market at that point. Far superior glass with usually your choice of sfp or ffp at a fraction of the cost of an LPVO that can even begin to compare in quality. You can even find some great deals on scopes that start at 1.25x or 1.5x that have more usable low end, close quarters magnification glass than most of the 1x claims from the LPVO market. I had to learn all this the hard way myself because I wanted a usable application as you described. Went through a PA 8x, 2 strike eagle 8x until seeing the insane clarity and benefits of switching away from the LPVO format to the 2x-10x format. Sadly, LPVO's are still behind the curve of being technologically applicable UNLESS you are willing to spend a minimum of $1,200 bucks and even at that point you still suffer either at 1x or 6-8x. Hopefully within the next year or so we'll have newer technology allowing for better budget to mid tier options.
i reviewed one, it's fine.
Reminds me of the vudu with worse glass.
@@BrassFacts Thanks, will look at your review.
@Arcana Also thanks for that comment, will take into consideration.
Finding the right scope for your use is not about ticking boxes next to marketing hotspots/buzz phrases. It's not a contest of features, really -- it's a question of whether the whole package of the scope fits your uses. Compromises always must be struck, so doing a list of features is ignoring the pivotal point of -- what compromises are you willing to make?
Not trying to be snarky -- trying to help you re-direct your efforts. And I know that gun media people are almost all, to a person, pitching a features-list perspective. They're not helping!
Yes they work fine. I imagine disregarding the razor 1-10 being overwhelmingly the most popular LPVO in the special forces community we are now at the point where people are just hating on 1-10 just to be contrarian I guess. I respect some of your opinions but in this I’ve heard it said by everyone who only shoots for fun and no one who shoots for work or treats it like a lifestyle .
I’ll stick w my PA SFP 1-6x then. That’s all I think I need in the woods of the NE. Thanks for the info. I think my 1-6 is great for what it is and what I need.
So much education! Well-done, brother. Great video.
That’s why I like my trijicon credo 2-10. It’s a 5x zoom ratio but it works good.
If they used locking turrets and parallax, it would be a pretty perfect optic
@@DogOnAPhone I agree, it has a elevation zero stop but the lack of parallax adjustment is kinda brutal.
I honestly think a 1-4 or 1-6 LPVO is all you need for a general purpose carbine. If you need more magnification for an SPR/SDM type role I’d go with a mid range 3-15 or 4-16 of some kind.
My 243 Winchester AR10 runs a 10x42 SWFA Super Sniper and an offset dot. I want so badly to run a top mounted dot, but the SWFA has super tall turrets and I'm too stubborn to change scopes lol.
It's primarily a deer rifle, but I can tell you that the red dot has bagged me deer that I would have lost otherwise. Everyone hunts here, the deer are keenly aware of humans and you'll rarely get a clean shot over 100 yards. The vast majority of my deer were shot at 30 yards or less, and had to be snap shots before they smelled/saw/heard me and hauled ass.
@@BuckFoeJiden What brand is the .243 AR10? how is the recoil impulse?
@@djcoopes7569 the upper receiver itself came from Bear Creek. I forget who I ordered the barrel from, though. It holds about .75 MOA accuracy pretty reliably, and the recoil is lower than 308, but not quite like 5.56. It's pretty similar to shooting an AK, imo.
BCA actually has a complete 243 upper, but I'd recommend changing the gas block and bolt if you run with them.
@@BuckFoeJiden nah I'm just curious mate, can't have "military appearance" firearms in my state, let alone self loading ones, so for now its just a pipedream.
@@djcoopes7569 I hope you're able to move out of that state soon man. A very close friend of mine just left California for Texas, and he's never been happier! I left Virginia for Tennessee about ten years ago when I left the Army, and I'm glad I did. Another friend back in VA was just denied a CCW permit from a "2A" judge shortly after a trial where he beat a homicide charge on self defense. The reasoning for denying his CCW was a misdemeanor that's been on his record for almost 5 years... and it was a firearms charge. I forget exactly what it was now, but it was small potatoes.
So now he's got meth head family members of the guy he shot in self defense, and he can't get a concealed weapon permit... luckily VA is an open carry state, but open carry just makes you a target so... :/
Leave if you can bud, but if you can't, I get it. Especially with the economy the way it is.
Excellent analysis!
Maybe you could answer a question I have: I'm trying to decide between 2 LPVO's of the same model but in 2 different magnification ranges (1-6x and 1-8x) and I'll be using it primarily in the middle of its magnification range...which would have better image quality, larger eye box, brightness, etc. at that same magnification setting?
Low Power Variable Optic....Is it 'low power' if its 10x?
For sale: LPVO.
Great video. These types of presentations are the reason I'm subbed. Looking forward to more.
I do agree, but I have found I love the 1-10 razor on a 13” scar 17. I originally had it on a KAC CQB before I realized that I was just fine with a red dot or an Elcan out to it’s effective range. I think with a short, higher caliber like .308 that can be used both for CQB and out to 700 is about the only good use case
How do you like the Razor? Asking since you commented almost a year ago. I just purchased my SCAR 17 and have been watching videos on optics for the past week and am still undecided…
I never understood people who try to push LPVOs so far, considering the diminishing returns.
1-6x is ideal for mitigating the downsides and maximizing the upsides. 1-8x can be justified, but has issues.
Anything above? Just get a 4-20x or something else without a 1x setting. We are limited by physics, so unless you can control how light refracts, we have to be realistic with what we can make.
“no not you mro” 💀💀💀
I stopped at 1-4x and 1-6x.
I’m sure this time next year we’ll have 1-18x or 1-20x and everyone will be bitching up a storm about those too.
March 1-10 shorty is amazing
I love my 1-10 razor, but I treat it like the SCO, I PID on max zoom and only shoot on 6x or less. I love my MK6 3-18 with a piggyback T2. It does just as good for for a fighting rifle but It’s more to deal with size wise
This is why during my research into optics I have for the most part totally written off LPVOs.
As the closing statement was kind of eluding to; if you are only ever going to be using 1x most of the time and sometimes going to 3x or 4x and very very rarely going to anything higher you should just get a red dot with a QD magnifier you can put on or take off as needed. Then if you are going to be almost always using the higher levels of magnification just get a scope and piggy back or offset a red dot for closer shots (they can help line up shots too). However, if you really want an LPVO then stick with a 1-4 or a 1-6.
And really in the civilian world 90% of people dont need more then about 4x anyway on a rifle.
In hunting more then 4x can be useful to be sure you are hitting exactly where you want or if your vision is not what it used to be but most game is taken well under 100 yards anyway, and if you cant hit a 10" box at the equivalent of 20 yards or less with no magnification then you need more practice.
In a SHTF situation the same applies. If you are taking shots out longer then 100 yards you are unlikely in an actual defensive situation, and if you are able to hit a paper target with just a red dot or irons at 100 yards then with 3x or 4x you should be able to do the same out to a couple hundred yards.
That 10% of people in the civilian world that might need more then 4x are competition shooters, long range game hunters, and not much else.
10x to do a little bird watching would be a quival to your argument.
I've personally been in the market for a new scope for my American Ranch, and while those 1-10x LPVOs are interesting, like you said, there's just too much compromise. I landed on a 2-12x from Athlon instead, and a 6x difference instead of a 10x difference I think will do worlds for optics quality - though with the price of the optic I'm still not expecting too much. Great vid!
Thank you. This information helps me pick my first scope.
Actually sponsored like viewers like me.
This video is really right on time for me. I've been pondering the question about the actual usefulness of having a 1-6 or 1-8, when 2x is rarely used, if at all. So I have been thinking about buying more of a 2x- or 3x- and if I needed 1x, I'd just use a red dot...
I had a 1-10 with an offset red dot. Ditched it, felt too bulky and like too much going on. I feel like for a GPR carbine an Eotech with the new G45 would be much better.
So, if you spend the absurd money ($2700-3000) for a March Tactical Shorty 1-10, you can get a good 1-10. I have the gen 1 of it, and it successfully has a great 1x, good illumination, good reticle, excellent weight, and a passable 10x. Its a good 10x if you are okay going prone or supporting in some kind of way every time you go all the way up to 10x. The new gen 2 is better in all these categories except weight. The thing is, its just good. For $3k. $3k for a good scope is kind of a shit deal. The clarity is good, but not as good as cheaper Japanese glassed optics with smaller magnification ratios. This is a scope which leans more towards the better 1x, by having the 24mm objective, leaving you with a 2.4mm exit pupil on 10x. Hence why you really want to be prone any time you go to 10x. Ultimately I think the March is a good scope, and I plan to continue using and training with it, but it honestly was not worth the money.
I've run one.
It's as you said. Sorta a example of what can be done, but with the price tag yielding a really average scope, it doesn't seem worth it.
I totally agree 1x 10 is no longer low power I think they topped out at 1x6 and about all of them that have a decent reticle weigh over 20 ounces unless you spend some crazy money .
Would you say the razor gen 3 is worth buying at all? I here lots of mixed things, but conceptually it seems great. I'm concerned about the eye box.
My atacr 1-8 is the absolute limits of what I've seen lpvos be capable of. Zoom ratio is a serious spec that you can't ignore.
The reticle also works without illumination, at 1x or 8x just fine
I have a Razor IIE, but am debating getting the Atacr 1-8. Very nice reticle, and everything else
I agree, I like my Razor 1-10 but at low light without illumination it was useless and I ended up top mounting a T2 to fix it
Very nice. I was looking at 1-10s with a larger obj for low light and bigger exit pupil and you explained why I shouldn't.
I'm running optics in the 4-14 range over LPVOs now, with a top mounted red dot. Between a PA 4-14x44 FFP with amazing reticle choices and a Holosun 507c and mounts, you're still under a thousand bucks easily.
What about the march 1-10 dual focal plane?
That wide zoom ratio is a tough one. I almost went full fudd and put a 3-9 on my rifle. Decided on a 1-6. Looking back probably should have went for the higher magnification. The quest continues...
Realistically is a 2.5 to 10 and a 3 to 9 different
@@mrs.vasquezz That's completely dependent on tube diameter, glass quality and size. From personal use I do find the 2-10 to be far superior to 3-9 that I've personally used but that also comes down to the applicable, intended use.
@@TerminalM193 your response misses many, many points. First, when comparing the two, some scopes marketed as a 3-9X are actually not that at all. Same for the 2.5-10x scopes. Some companies tell you that’s what it is, but in reality it may be 2.2-9.5x or something of the sort.
If it is truly a “2-10x” which most marketed as such aren’t, that’s a 5x zoom. Typically optical clarity suffers on one end or the other and light transmission will be reduced.
But lumping all 3-9X scopes together is as silly as lumping all 1-6x scopes together. Each one is an individual.
Some of the brightest, clearest scopes ever made have been 3-9x optics. When one doesn’t have a lot to spend, there can be more “bang for the buck” in this zoom range. Back a few years ago, Meopta contracted some 3-9x40 scopes with a 1” tube for Zeiss. They released this model in the “Conquest” line.
Zeiss made their own 2.5-10x in the line, but it wasn’t as popular as the 3-9x despite beating it on paper by a long shot. Why? First, it was lighter by a few ounces. It was slightly shorter, but adequately long enough for ring spacing on a magnum action. But most importantly, it has 4” of eye relief that was consistent through the magnification range. The eye box was VERY forgiving. Meanwhile, the 10x version had a listed 3.5” of eye relief, but using it, it was maybe true on the bottom end, but it was closer to 3” on 10x. The eye box ended up being very tight relative to the 3-9x version. What did this scope that was superior on paper get you? A fractional increase in top magnification of less than 1x?
Great video! I really wanted a 1-10 until I actually tried one. Much prefer my 1-6.
First off, I really enjoy your content. Well thought out with great editing. Secondly, I agree. Even with a high end LPVO there is still some to be desired.
For those curious about high end((not bragging)promise).. I run a 1-8 Nightforce ATACR and I still find those issue mentioned. My biggest peeve is not having parallax adjustment. It has great glass and a great reticle and it does the job I ask of it, but again, still some things to be desired.
IMO a 2.5-10 is the way...
I want to eventually do a video on it.
I've run a lot of 2.5-10x
And I'm of the opinion that the 2-10x has just as many problems in reserve.
I think it's important not to get hung up on getting the perfect solution. Just a workable one
I just think the 10x is a example of something that is mostly unsavable.
Going to buy the athlon helos 2-12 for my hunting ar. Not perfect but should fit that role well. If I end up with a 6arc or some other caliber like that I might consider a 3-18 as well. Not fighting rifles though.
you tried the swampfox 1-10 lpvo? nutnfancy has been raving about it. Apparently the company designed it and gave it to actual operators before releasing it to the public. Its 2fp and while some people have an issue with its max brightness i dont have any issues with it. indoor range or even out on families farm land which has a lot of shade. Comparatively to my fav optic right now the meopta 2.5-15 x 44 (clearest class ive ever looked through and best eye relief). The swamp fox has 75-80% of the clarity across the zoom range and maybe 90-95% at 1-4x ish. I bought one for a budget hunting rifle and one of my ar15s. The bdc is the best crosshair it comes in imo and provides quick and easy target aq. Now i dont have an area to really ever shoot past 200 yards so i don't really need to care about holding over. I'll just make elevation and wind adjustments on the scope if the time ever comes. I agree the perfect lpvo 1-10 may not exist. but i think the swamp fox is pretty close to being there. Maybe if they worked with meopta we could get a perfect 1-10
In the case of the Trijicon Credo, the 1-10x is actually lighter and smaller than the 1-8x. Doesn’t that make the 1-10x the better scope than the 1-8x scope even if you’re only using it in the 1-8x range?
Yo brassfacts, great video as usual. On another topic, How is that sonogear full power PEQ15 clone holding up? I’m buying one soon, but wanted to see if you’ve had any problems since your video on it?
haven't used it, working on my US NV DIR-V video. So been only using that
That drawn brass facts patch is pretty cool
Unrelated question. I'm looking to get my first ar15. I want to spend around 500. What guns do you recommend?
The optics math is something people don't talk about enough. Elcans have something like a 32-36 mm objective lens and at 4x that puts them right near the maximum performance you can get in low light. It's not going to magically give you extra light but it will be noticeable off flat ranges in daylight.
New plate carrier Brass? I hope to see a review on it soon. Thinking about copping the thorax
Same. Really would love to see a review on it
Ridiculously overpriced for what it is.
hoping brass facts gets into dirt bikes, love ya buddy!
Eotech exps 2 + vortex 6x magnifier all day, can range target instantly using 2 dot, got 6x magnifier for long range, can pop it off when not needed(night shooting/cqb). Beat that, I dare you.
he does have a video from 5 months ago exploring this exact comparison with lpvos and piggyback RDS sights
do those MI handguards lock up good and feel/are durable??? I see you use one on 2 different rifle... ?....
I was already leaning towards red dot and magnifier and this clinches for me. Thank you for such a fantastic explanation!
in fairness... this was only relative to 10x lpvos.
Don't let this give you confirmation bias. Almost none of this applies to a 6x lpvo.
@@BrassFacts I prefer the red dots for the day bright illumination and basically infinite eye box. So far as I know, none of the 1-6s can match that. Am I wrong about that?
@@letsgobrandon416 No. But the way you phrased it implies that that this video applies to all lpvos.
Nothing wrong with rds life
@@BrassFacts well, a lot of the points do apply. And at least in store I've never seen a 1-6 that impressed me at 6x. A half priced 3-9x typically looks better at 9x than a 1-6x does at 6x, and I imagine that's because of all the reasons you laid out. I figure a cheaper 6x magnifier makes more sense.
@@letsgobrandon416 sure, that's fair. I personally don't like 6x mag, but it's very much a personal thing.
IMHO, if one needs more magnification than 4-6x, use binos or a dedicated scoped rifle. If you want higher mag with up close capabilities, a scope with piggyback or offset. Most would be better served with a RDS and magnifier or ACOG. Chasing 1x with higher mag will result in both coming up short. Figure out what you need your rifle to do and keep it in that role or you’ll end up with a 11.5 loaded with a D60 and a 1-10 LPVO with MRO stacked on top. Enjoy humping that monstrosity around.
NGL, with the expression and the facial expression in the thumb nail, you had some strong Ricky Berwick vibes
Can we get a video on recommendations for AR10 platforms ? 16”
ones maybe, their viability as a force multiplier, especially solo or in a small group, what optics would be good for them for what roles, would it make sense to run a rifle scope 2.5-10, 3.5-18, 6-24, etc plus an RMR or other 1x side dot, or maybe as a battle rifle with some kind of dot plus magnifier? The ruger SFAR, the Sig 716i, aero m5, etc sort of have the market for these kind of guns opening up and a lot of us ie me are wondering your thoughts on having one of these to go alongside a 5.56, if it would even be worth bringing a second gun, when it might make sense to take in place of the 5.56, etc. .308 is still flooded all around the country and there are some really nice and decent priced platforms to be had in it, and I’d love to hear your take!!!
one day, I'm doing some 300blk stuff
but then I'll mess with 308
10x and up really needs a side parallax
Honestly even 8x would benefit
agree, a lot of 8x suffer from all the issues in t his video
It kinda can't
Because of how the lenses do fuckery to yield 1x
You would just drop the 1x or even 2x requirement and get a scope with a larger objective
The problem is the zoom ratio relative to the size of the tube letting light in
If you would not buy a 4-40x32
Why on earth would you think a 1-10x24 would work well
@@BrassFacts So what I'm hearing is go for the Vortex Razor 1-6x Gen II-E
@@warmonger82 if you want, I personally hate the reticle
@@BrassFacts ok… PA PLx 1-8x?
Good video dude. Cool information on the human pupil vs exit pupil on scopes etc.
Great explanation of some complicated topics. How would this relate to a more powerful optic, such as a 3.5-18 ffp, or similar 'higher' base magnification and much higher top end magnification scopes? I've been looking at the Vudu 3.5-18 ffp.
do the math ( mean that in a non-condescending way)
That way you can check for yourself.
Since we don't care about 1x that's a lot less stress on the system
But exit pupil (Obj/Mag) and,
zoom factor
Both still matter. It's worth noting most of these scopes are very nice, so the zoom factor can be mostly mitigated.
The Exit pupil will remain. While most long range scopes get used in a much more static environment, it still may be a issue.
I got a monstrum g3 1-6x24 ffp lpvo and I love it works absolutely great for everything I need and I was able to get it for less then 200 it's only 6,000 series aluminum but has held up great. I'm able to get sub MOA at 100 yards with my Armalite M153GN18 my other rifle has an at3 red dot and I also have a monstrum g3 5-26? Can't remember the top end of it but that one I feel has serious issues on top magnification but that doesn't bother me at all cuz I got it for free it's great up to 18- 20x. I'd love to actually own some none China glass optics but I'm poor, disabled and a full time single father of 2 little ones.
I used to be a monstrum fan until I took my very first carbine training course. Both my monstrum failed miserably when subjected to even the lightest bit of hard use by losing zero, poor glass coatings, and functional design.... I also had no clue what clean and clear glass looked like until that day as well. I was able to look through a students razor HD and another students vortex viper Gen 2 1-6x LPVO's. The difference in clarity, reticle design and brightness are so massive that looking through anything inferior is just straight up depressing...
Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10 works great imo! Shoots holes through paper fine 1-10, shoots steel fine 1-10, kills deer fine 1-10. Rugar SFAR .308
So how do 1-10x stack up against 1-8? Do 1-8’s have the same problem? That’s still a 8x zoom ratio
similar issues, but not nearly as intense.
This was a great video and explanation. I’ve always thought of LPVO’s being for your shorter AR’s and maxing at 6x for target identification more then try to touch a 500 yard target. Anything more should be a designated rifle for those long shots with a designated scope. I love my vortex strike eagle 1-6 because I can use it in home defense and be able to use it in the rural area around me as well. Anything far, I’ll more then likely have time to grab a designated rifle or have planned to have it on me already
Once I realized this I really saw the appeal of the MPVO, especially the 2-10x options.
What the hell is an MPVO?
@@graynotescartridgebox Medium Power Variable Optic, what the hell else? If you can figure out what LPVO stands for, you can figure out MPVO.
@@InvidiousIgnoramus none of these acronyms existed before…dudes keep making stuff up. 2-10x used to be considered pretty dang high power. What a stupid term.
@@graynotescartridgebox maybe 30 years ago, lmao.
@@InvidiousIgnoramus nobody needed special names. They just called things what they were. 😂
You guys are SO lucky to be able to play around out there.
I like the form factor and being able to get a little extra PID with the 10x. Magnification isn’t always about being able to shoot at that magnification. Extra magnification of the 10x is nice for a little extra for observation
I thought that you would be interested that I took an LPVO taught by active green beret's, they referenced this video and they thought it was BS. I think off the bat their community writes folks off that do not have any combat experience, and they kind of said the same about you. To give you credit they did say that you "looked" like you knew what you were doing. I didn't challenge their line of thought at all (I'm not interested in that smoke), even though I do agree with your premise; but rather asked them questions to get their line of thinking. One question I asked was "how important is the 1x setting"; they essentially said not at all and they would rather have a red dot, but I don't understand the reasoning of dealing with the engineering negatives to achieve a 1x if it is not important. I will definitely be avoiding a 1-10x for my dedicated precision build, and honestly feel that 1-6 is still ideal for my LPVO "general purpose" applications. I looked though a couple of 1-10x of different makes (including a razor gen3, atibal, Sig), and did not love them at all.
Some other interesting take-aways from their course is those dudes can straight shoot, and have a ton of intelligence when it comes to ranging unknown distances using common objects (a tire, shopping cart, random stuff). They are also magicians on the turrets. Another take-away is they seem to not give a damn about what weapons weigh; whereas, it seems to be a pretty big concern to civilian shooters. I thought it was cool that your video is creating dialogue, even if everyone does not agree it still is important to re-evaluate our thought process and how we spend our money!
I fell for the 1-10 meme as well. I was floored when I realized the eyebox on my Gen 1 PA 1-8 was better than this $2000 Vortex 1-10. Simple physics. Can't get around it. I think 1-8 is fine, and am looking at an ATACR.
I’ve got most of them:
PA, sig, SwampFox, Vortex, and ATACR.
ATACR is hands down the best. You pay for it but you get the best of 1x and 8x.
@@Kilo__Bravo would you recommend the new or old reticle? Old seems better for unlit 1x. The cost to high end “target obstruction” seems minimal.
@@RADIOACTIVEBUNY Yes it looks probably better un lit at low mag. I dont have one in the old flavor to compare in real life.The new reticle hands down is awesome though. Eventually I will try their NX8 as its cheaper and can get the new reticle in it.
I like my Vortex HD III on a DMR/Battle Rifle role out to about 500m but I was mostly shopping for the reticle with the ability to shoot short range effectively
P4xi gang.... If I truly need more magnification then it's for bolt gun / hunting. The 1x-4x range is so good that for everything out to 400 yards is cake. The eyebox for the p4xi is still the best I've ever seen on an LPVO too.