Why does a civilian need a SPR? (GPR vs SPR)
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- A lot of people question why a civilian would want a SPR that can push out to 800 yards and further.
In the era of the Recce/GPR, is the SPR even relevant?
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Im coming off of a multi year DMR project. Lessons learned.
1) DMR/SPR is heavy. They slow you down because you're carrying more weight.
2) DMR/SPR is expensive. I spent $3K on mine and thats still an entry level price. You can easily spend $7-10K on a single DMR/SPR. Not to mention the additional cost for higher quality match ammo.
3) DMR/SPR is a niche weapon. The military created this class of small arm to fill a particular void in their combat tactics.
4) DMR/SPR requires additional training and practice. The obligation is upon you to significantly increase your trigger time in order to extract the full potential of this class of rifle.
The DMR/SPR is not just a rifle, it is a position within a squad. It is the responsibility of the Designated Marksman to put rounds onto targets at extended ranges, beyond that of the ordinary rifleman. A DMR means at some point all eyes turn to you and you had better deliver results.
SPR can be cheap(er). Mine weighs 10lbs with all that stuff, will just about hit sub moa with match, and about 1.5 moa with ball on a 5 round group.
Total cost is roughly ~1.5k all said and done.
@@BrassFacts Ah, yes. I built my DMR several years ago and today there are affordable options that were not available, back then.
But the DMR/SPR is a niche rifle. The Army has less than 7000 DMR type rifles in total, compared to the 500,000 M4's currently in service. (Thats one DMR for every seventy M4 carbines). Truly 'niche'.
I would argue that a DMR/SPR is the fifth most important rifle you need in your inventory.
@@newdefsys agreed most people would better served by a single well set up rifle, or maybe 2. For me, this is AR # 3 or 4
@@BrassFacts I've unconverted my DMR. Removed the bipod and stock and replaced the scope with a red dot and re-attached the old plastic handguard. I keep the DMR parts for (just in case). But I doubt I will ever need them.
Consider that most civilians may not be a good match for the typical infantry fighting rifle position on a squad. Age, injury, fittness may all be factors. Millions of hunters and hunting experience however may well mean that these folks are ideally suited to the DMR position. In fact, guerilla tactics would necessitate a small unit engaging a traditional force from a more removed/safer distance and then disengaging. In prractical historical terms the up close fighting will likely continue to be the "specialized" skill sets. So the DMR is likely to continue to see popularity for some time.
"Why do you need that?" Between crime and Ukraine, I've been hearing a lot less of this lately.
🤣😂😅
If you don't want one no problem if he wants one alright,it is his right to own what he wants not what you want him to own.
Lmao, right
why does my girlfriend buy $50 in makeup a week.. cause we want it lol
Si vis pacem para bellum
Living in the Midwest, noone questions the "coyote rifle" excuse when you have an spr. A little extra range and velocity is more beneficial around here any day.
As a Marine Corps veteran and ardent Patriot I enjoy your conceptual understanding and you make good points for a without law situation.
Great video, very well thought out. This system would be extremely useful to have in any kind of collapse scenario. You have some of the best content out there in terms of thinking through different systems for different scenarios. I find that to be much more interesting then just another gear review.
I love your content, man. So glad I found the channel. We have similar thought processes, which I know means that you have solid experience and time thinking about these things. I’m here for it.
I love your content. Your "thought experiments" assist me in conceptualizing my own ideas. I am putting together 3 different weapon system kits. A GPR/SPR, PDW/GPR and a DMR/SBS. Each system will have their own rucks with the needed, receiver, uppers, mags, ammo and parts and accompanying side arm with the same. The GPR/SPR is 10.5" 7.62x39 AR with a RDS and magnifier, MBUS, light, hand stop, sling. Finally got it dialed with a heavy buffer, krink flash hider, adjustable gas block, 0.120 gas port, enhanced firing pins and heavy hammer spring. It was a PIA to dial in to make it actually reliable. It's purpose is 0-300yds and is zerod for such. The accompanying SPR upper is a 6.5 grendel with 22" barrel, 6-12×50 scope with an RDS up top, light, bipod, Sling. It's purpose is 400-1000yds. Sig p320 in 40s&w is their companion.
The PDW/GPR is a 8" bufferless 10mm upper with glock mag adapter, a RDS, light, handstop and sling. a BRN-180 18" with LPVO, light and sling and MBUS. both using the same folding stocks. Obviously a glock 20 in 10mm is accompanying them.
The DMR/SBS is a concept still in development. It's a 24" match grade 7.62x51 upper and will be paired with a 12ga upper. The idea is loosely for stationary defense of a long term FOB with the 12GA being available for exfil.
The idea is weapon system kits to provide to team members who may be ill equipped or poorly trained, to be able to train them on a system and arm that with that system and have the capability to effectively conduct varying mission sets with the proper set ups for the mission.
Is any of it necessary? Not really. Am I doing to much? Probably.
Do I start talking myself out of this endeavor regularly? Definitely.
But I think it's a concept with some value and it's fun.
I appreciate your content. I could care less about gear reviews. Thanks for what you do.
You've done more than help me out... Help me sort a lot of the choices I've made over the years... Starting with a carry handle A2, and Troy quad-rail to host a EOtech co-witnessed... Then getting a .223rem 24"bull premium barrel, generous optics and well fitted ergos 2benchrest trigger (squirrel gun) ... Idiotic consumerism leaves me w/Best compromise yet: do-it-yourself SPR, GHETTO $NIPER..CQB fightin'stick.... 16-in Noveske upper in Troy receiver, 4xACOG, POF trigger, UBR stock, Harris legs.. Viking sling.
As a lefty, love your videos...
Subject matter of dynamic deliberate modern firearms usage is so TABOO that I'll be forever grateful for your shared knowledge and experience
🇺🇲 Thanks 👍... we're going to win this 'game'🔥
How does this POU compare to the Multirole Carbine?
I dunno, I'm sure there's a obscure article on the internet somewhere covering this in great detail.
@@BrassFacts Impossible, I just invented the term MRC and I haven't shared it with anyone else.
How are these comments two weeks old on a video only a day old?
What sorcery is this?!
@@Korruptor substar early access... or a time machine.
Probably the later
Whoa! I built my own SPR/“Mk 12” concept rifle with the features/parts I wanted and that almost forgotten 18” barrel. I’m just finishing up the details. Thanks, btw, for the review of the PA Glx 2.5-10x scope. I had stuck on a spare Nikon Black 1-6x for testing but I knew that wasn’t the long term solution. To me, optic, light and sling aren’t options so I’m working my way through and adding these to everything so I’m not just moving stuff around while the rifle is in use. Anyway, it’s a very handy general purpose rifle in my estimation. More people should look into these.
I think I'm just going to review these video enough times that I start to understand exactly everything you're saying, I don't mind the presentation is pretty bomb keep it up‼️💯💯🔥🔥
Most people would be much better served by being very proficient with their 16" carbine and also having a good .308 or 6.5cm bolt gun they can carry in a drag bag when they need it. Hits can be made with a 16" rifle and 3x magnifier out to 4-500yds no problem with 62gr or 77gr ammo, any farther than that I'm gonna want a better optic and some more horsepower.
Yah lugging around an extra rifle doesn’t sound very practical.
I won't say it's all "Mission Dependent" but i will say it depends where you're working/living. I used to live in GA and if SHTF where i lived in GA, a 14.5" pinned and welded and or 16" AR15 would be fine. Now i live in Utah and i can make due with 16" but 18" with a bit thicker barrel is better in the mountains and wind.
Basically if you live somewhere where there are wide open expanses.. you want more velocity to be able to reach further out and buck the wind better.
I would like to say 5.56 and even the 77 grain OTM is somewhat obsolete but it's not. I feel very confident hitting out to 800 and even 1,000 yards depending on OPTIC and set up with a good SPR set up. I feel really good hitting out to 750-800 yards with my 8x Burris with fine, floating center dot on a DMR/SPR set up.
You just have to be honest about what set up works best for you in the area you live in.
If you don't have a lot of practice/trigger time... you're probably up shit creek anyways.
@@rascalmatt6713 You feel confident out to 800 with a floating dot? How do you reliably call wind?
@@Whiskey.Tango.Actual Go look up the Burris 1-8x CQ-Mil optic. It's discontinued. I own two of them. It's a mil-radian reticle that's dual focal plane. This means that the circle and .25MOA floating center dot are 2nd focal plane and NEVER change in size through the entire magnification range. The vertical and horizontal are 1st FP and DO change in size as they are accurate at any magnification.
I shoot in the windy mountains of Utah. Even with wind i can typically nail the silhouette at 750 yards but i may not get a first shot hit if i just know my vertical hold and not my wind hold. Thing is, getting your wind hold takes time. It requires either a kestrel our a shit ton of experience. If time is of the essence and or you don't have a kestrel or a DOPE card filled out, you can take a shot and quickly adjust. If you dial up the vertical hold to where your center dot is, you can then just use the single horizontal line, with mil hash tics on it, to find your exact wind hold and make quick adjustments. I'll be honest, the silhouette is pretty small at 750-850 yards with an 8x optic but IT IS DOABLE with a little practice. In all honesty, i once found 3 77 grain black hills rounds at the bottom of my range bag. I wasn't there to shoot 5.56 that day and my silhouette was at 830 yards. I did happen to have my BCM 16" BFH Mk2 middy build with me though so i figured i'd have a go. I used the DOPE i had on my Noveske 18" SPR and my first shot was about a mil high and half a mil to three quarter mils left, i can't remember exactly. Point being, i hit the silhouette with the next 2 shots...i couldn't see the impact but i could hear, "Ding, Ding" for both shots. I don't remember if i dialed or just held but that's not important, what is important is that you can definitely do it with practice, it's just not ideal. I kept the 1-8x Burris on that BCM rifle and i love it but i have a DDM4V11Pro that's got an 18" S2W or bull type barrel on it that's very accurate and is really good at fast follow up shots. I was able to complete the JP challenge with that rifle. I had the Vortex Viper 5-25x56 with EBR-7C reticle on the rifle. The challenge is to fire three shots at the silhouette at 800 yards before you hear the report of the first impact. So you should hear, "Bang, Bang, Bang, Ding, Ding, Ding". I could only get 2 with my Noveske SPR which has a 416R SS Match barrel which is more accurate than the DD but the Noveske has a flash hider and the DD is marketed as a 3gun rifle and has their compensator on it so it shoots flatter.
At any rate.. i'm rambling now... just know your systems and practice to find out what you and your system are capable of. I've learned so much shooting in Utah and am so glad i moved hear from GA, where i could never really shoot long range or in the mountains. I've hit a soda can in 3 shots at 1,006 yards with my Tikka TAC A1 in 6.5 CM. and at 1,380 yards in 14 shots in a 15mph 90degree cross wind. It's been so fun to shoot out here and i have learned so much.
Was 1 for 4 on a soda can at 760 yards with my Noveske SPR last summer too. Good times.
@@rascalmatt6713 very robust reply! I'll take some more time to respond later. I also have a DDM4V11PRO 18" stick with a NF 4-16. I'm mostly in the Midwest or Idaho when I shoot longer distance and the wind is atrocious in Iowa. I learned quickly that the acog really doesn't cut it as a precision optic when I went to shoot steel out to 600 with 30mph wind. Now with the Tremor 3 reticle it's way more doable. I did manage to stick a 2/3 IPSC out at 800y and hit 9/10 on a 5mph wind day and was shocked. I'm totally hooked on the spr thing now. That was with 855 because I forgot my can of mk262! I can appreciate the extra magnification but now I'm wondering if I can slap the ATACR 1-8 on my 11.5" and still get a lot more capability out of it over the T2/magnified combo.
You make really great points here. Thank you. Keep doing the good work 👏
Great content as usual. Nothing like coming home to a happy pup.
I always learn a bunch from your videos. Thanks!
Bro, thank you so much for what you do. Watching your videos is therapy 👍🏻
Brass facts consumer confirmed
nothing beats spending way to much money on shit I probably won't ever need
An advantage of the AR-15 is you can swap uppers in seconds, and have a mission specific weapon.
Technically yes, though there is the matter of the buffer assembly to contend with. A buffer that is just right for your 13.7" GPR upper, may have issues with your 18" SPR upper.
@@travelingspartan2035 facts
@@travelingspartan2035 H2 buffer both suppressed and send it
A little history of the MK12 SPR. That's basically what the Army wanted. But they realized that a 2 stage trigger was better. And they thought there could be a point where that upper receiver could be mounted on a receiver that was not modified by the Army gunsmiths or NSWC Crane. Same reason the Navy Seals didn't adopt the LMT Enhanced BCG for use with the M4A1. So they made the MK12 a dedicated rifle. Complete opposite of what Brass Facts has, stainless steel bull barrel that weighs about 3 lbs. A1 lower receiver with a KAC 2 stage full auto trigger. 12" quad rail with a 9-13" Harris bipod. They probably weigh 13.5-14 lbs. I need to weight mine, it's not too bad but definitely not light.
Great video!
However I would argue that the smaller the group is, the more important a sniper/observer/sdm is. They are such a multiplier. History has shown countless examples where one or two sharpshooters has held/stopped up very large groups of opponents. Having a few folks in place to "influence" the actions of an opponent may give a small group an advantage. Multiple marksmen covering multiple angles, in coordinated fire, can wreak havoc. The distributed fire can delay/prevent triangulation especially if each person makes limited engagements before revolving to another fighting position. In simple terms, that's how to make 4 people do the work of 40.
That does not mean you need heavy rifles. Just accurate ones and some decent glass. You seem to understand that very very well. My rifle weighs under 8lbs with a 20rd magazine. Add 1lb to that to use similar glass as your 2-10.
It's worth noting, that with the modern lpvo, AR15s being "sniper accurate" that a lot of times, that gap is closed.
And the difference in battlefield effectives of a SPR equipped dude and a rifle with a LPVO is quite narrow.
Specifically urban.
But yeah I agree
@@BrassFacts Oh hell yeah. Absolutely. With modern equipment i'd argue that is "sufficient" for the role at least till ranges get looong. As long as you arent trying to do it with a 10.3 and a naked aimpoint.
Shorties struggle with long range fighting. "Book" definition SPRs would be a PAIN to do cqb with. That sweet middleground is a happy place.
@@BrassFacts Respectfully not trying to stir the pot. In wanting to fully understand your position, What is your definition of “Sniper Accurate”?
@@mattfleming86 respectfully, I think you need to separate the two elements of your point. Barrel Length (extreme end of short) matched with any non magnification sight system is not a fair representation in their respective factors for longer than average engagement ranges. There is no issue with making long distance calls with a 10.3 or the like as long as you consider other critical elements like the trigger itself and trigger time as well as weapon or field expedient stabilization, and ammo. As long as you get enough powder burn, 7-800 is feasible before bullet stabilization destroys accuracy. As long as the platform is consistent, the glass just needs to allow for target identification and target acquisition. This will enable a platform to be dialed in and based on shooter factors will consistently put rounds on target.
@@commoncorysense1809 able to engage reduce sized targets at extended ranges.
A civilian with a lpvo equipped rifle can do 95% of the mission profile of a traditional Mk12 equipped SDM
Good topic and discussion. Dig your channel.
Great work as always
I am a PRS competitor, but looking at getting my first AR.
First time viewer. Thanks for sharing.
Appreciate the video and appreciate that care of that dog.👍
Always excellent content and concepts
Great video. I've done a lot of thinking on the SPR concept and while I like the idea, I've found that if I'm at the point where I'm pushing the boundaries of my 14.5 with a 1-8x and need to step up, then I'm better off jumping calibers as well to an AR10. Due to this I ended up parting out my 18" gun.
I'm going to be running the gambit of 308 guns/systems soon. I suspect I will come to a similar conclusion
@@BrassFacts I've done both in the past. For reasons I won't list due to time I don't have any of my old dope on 308Win/7.62NATO.
But using either factory or hand loaded ammo you should get 0 5-1MOA out of a good system. Sierra Matching or Hornady ELDM. Dependant on how they are currently gassed some piston AR-10 rifles may or may not run with "pet loads". I had an early SIG 716 that I had to work up approximately 1full grain of powder and near max in my manuals for it to run. But still grouped very well.
I had to make sure I didnt have Rimworld open in the background while watching this 🤣
Those PA GLx4 2.5-10 are Fucking Exceptional Quality, & great value that punches much higher that it’s price point, along with some of best Reticles on market.
The RimWorld music is just perfect
I currently own two ARs; a .300BLK with a 9.5" barrel and a 6.5 Grendel with an 18". Given my rural location(on a homestead) between several hundred miles of serious commercial farmland and a couple hundred miles of rugged mountain terrain, and my lack of reasons(and desire) to venture into closer terrain(particularly urban areas), particularly in a period where shit is hitting the fan, means my .300BLK is an instrument of limited utility. When I took my third CQB course, I actually did it with my 18" gun and was surprised by the results. I was definitely a bit slower with it, but not by as much as I thought, and the guys in the class that were considerably faster than me would have been considerably faster regardless of the difference in hardware. Conversely, reaching beyond 150 around here with my .300BLK is only happening under very specific conditions. I've since reconfigured my SBR as a strictly subsonic gun and am currently investigating the quietest can I can mount on it. With my recent exploration of the PDW world(your video on it is what led me to your channel), that SBR is probably going to be a range toy that lets me live out the occasional SEAL fantasy.
I don't know who said it, but I remember a quote: "you can make your rifle easy to shoot, or you can make your rifle easy to live with; there's no free lunch." Since even in a SHTF situation I won't have to live with my rifle the same way that a professional infantryman would, I may as well keep it easier to shoot. I think there's far too much emphasis on short ARs out there for people who have more of a fantasy use than a real use for them, which works for me. It proves you can still do what you like in this country, and it means that if things really do go to hell, there won't be any shortage of nice SBRs for me to loot off of the guys killed in CQB.
That's a nice way to come home, man. Good stuff.
I have carried DMRs overseas for years. They are heavy and unwieldy IMO.
For me a good compromise was a 6mm ARC with a 16” tube. With a 1-10 vortex RZR, she comes in at just over 8.5lbs including optic, PEQ and white light. With a can its much heavier. Mine holds .75moa.
The cartridge does well bridging the gap between 77gr match and a rifle cartridge. Good terminal performance on game out to 600m and Im achieving first round hits out to 750m.
Mobility vs range and lethality is the key.
In the case of a SHTF scenario, how available is that 6ARC gonna be though? That seems to be more relevant to the video content than purely ballistic performance.
The 6ARC seems super cool and I'd love to get one, but the ammo situation even currently isn't great, especially in comparison to .308 or 5.56. Hopefully it gets more available and we see more widespread adoption
Damn good recce rifle
I have/had a similar setup...has become my coyote rifle. Just couldn't justify the weight for an extra 100 yards of effective fire. Probably would be great if I were running with a squad in the Colorado mountains, but I can't think of a scenario where it would end up being practical in rural nebraska where I live. Keeps 75gr hdys on the ragged edge of stability @800 yards at my elevation.
That rifle morphed into my coyote/short course prs gas gun. 18" medium contour kreiger, sandman k, atacr 4-16, surefire light @ 9:00, offset rmr, atlas bipod. Tips the scale at over 12 lbs. Works great for gun games/song dogs...but as a fighting rifle? Forget that. I could deck out a 16" 6.5 for the same (or less) weight.
Nice overview man 🤙
Love the channel, big fan. The background music is hella depressing though.
whaaaat? it's rimworld music. It's chill.
I think a general purpose rifle with a mid length gas system, lpvo with a top dot would be the most ideal shtf starting point for most people. Building that rifle as light as possible and knowing your weapon and it’s mechanics like the back of your hand is the most important. Don’t put to much junk on your main rifle.
The Holy Trinity, as far as I'm concerned, is Sling, Optic, and Light. Every rifle should have all three, or have a very specific reason why it doesn't. And every cling-on beyond those three should have a very specific purpose for being there.
Is a top dot really worth it in an LVPO? Not adding much weight, but the snagability factor increases 10fold no matter where you mount it. This might not be an issue to some, but it is too me(profile goes hand in hand with weight imo).
Love the content.
Good stuff man!
It will be very interesting to see the Maztech fire control optics when they release and what they do to first shot accuracy on SPRs and similar rifles.
I just discovered your channel. I hear you know Hop, seems like a good place i'll stick around! Great content
welcome on board
Hey well thought out video! Great quality, I’m subscribing!! Sweet to hear another perspective of an SPR lol great content. Now I have to watch more! What state you located in? Looks like where I live?
Ut, welcome aboard!
Let’s be honest we all need multiple rifle setups and people to run them to be effective. SBR, SPR, Bolt gun/ AR10, probably an ak as well depending on who’s invading and what ammo is going to be available on the battle field. But all this is assuming you are going to stay in a general area and fight vs hiding/ just trying to survive without conflict.
I'm really into puting together spr uppers at the moment. Big fan of the PA glx optics.
what is old is new again.
When I got into firearms SPR were all the rage (granted they were probably just GPR with 18" barrels) but still.
I still lust for a mk12.
PA and Holosun are making better products and innovating at q much higher rate than a lot of the bigger name product's.
@@ChilangoDios333 I’d like Holosun to start making an lpvo. Their 510c is good
@@ChilangoDios333 I’m tempted to put a holosun on my PWS lmao.
Love the videos man
thanks!
Very good video with alot of information. I personally love 5.56 and I've always used it for hog hunting. I've been using it for many years and I've shot hogs with 10.5 all the way up to 20 inch, and everytime 5.56 always hit very hard. I shot a 180 or 190 pound pig (don't remember exact weight) at about 180 yards with my 10.5 and it drop with 1 round. It was 55gr and I hit it in the neck so I'm guessing it was a spine shot, but the exit side was NASTY. But like I said very good video.
You hear a lot about the lower velocity from shorter barreled 5.56, so it's interesting that a 10.5 will still blow out a hog's neck at 190 yards.
@@alexisdetocqueville9964 a 10.5 barrel basically starts with the velocity of a 16" that's at ~100yd so his experience at ~200 would match a 16" at ~300yd. 5.56 55-62gr is perfectly lethal out to 4-500yds so a 10.5 is equal out to 3-400
@@X4Alpha4X that's not entirely true. 16" muzzle velocity is around 2800 while 10.5" is 300 less, around 2500. While it may still be lethal out to a few hundred yards, it does not start out at the same velocity.
Another excellent video 👌
thanks man! I try.
I don't believe society will collapse. But your voice is just so damn soothing.
3-18 is where the money is at for a SPR.
I like the magpul ubr stock on these. It's solid without wiggle, it's just heavy enough to offset some of that nose heavy feeling you get from the longer barrel, and best of all, it doesn't pull beard hairs
Having played around with long distance shooting with a 14.5 AR with match trigger and good barrel, I found that 10x magnification is the sweet spot for distances at least out to 500m. When starting, I was using a 4x16. Used the 16x as a crutch until an old Marine Scout Sniper coached me on the etiquette (for lack of better words) of long range shooting. Bipod or back pack or ability to utilize whatever rest for stability is a must. For what you are discussing, I’m good with a 16 inch tube, but if I was going to build one, I’d go with an 18 inch. Whole thing to consider is if one has to carry a rifle for any length of time, unnecessary weight is a consideration that can be mitigated thru training, specifically for the mission.
Would you tell me please? What cartridge are you using that you feel is still effective at 4-500 meters? In an AR -15.
Awesome video as always.
I really like my PA 2.5-10 with the 5.56/308 reticle it gets my 77gr 5.56 out to 700 yards pretty well. Why did you go with the griffin mil dot reticle as opposed to a 5.56 bdc redicle?
While I generally dial. The option of putting on a suppressor, dialing the offset, and then holding via the griffen mil is superior imo.
PA BDC's also are generally somewhat vague.
The Griffen is compatible with 6.5 grendal
I think location is key as well. both my builds are complete opposite . one 16'' with a Leopold 556. and the other is 8'' 300blk with a sig redot. seems like your location. a riffle built towards longer range looks very optimal based off of what I see in this video.
I ordered parts for a new SPR build a couple days ago. 18" SDM fluted Krieger. Check out the Protean bipod. Thinking about picking one up.
The best part is the end. It reminds us of what we fight for. Our dog’s
Have an 18” BALLISTIC ADVANTAGE (Aero) SPR. Slapped a PA 4-14 on it. Love their ACSS reticle. Been to the range with it once. Would not cycle. I’ve reassembled it. Going back in a few weeks. Second guessing the Superlative Arms adjustable gas block. Bringing a 2nd lower receiver to help trouble shoot. Not like u can lighten a rifle length buffer…… right?!?!
Oh god, don't make me wanna play RimWorld.
Good video, especially the explaining that those that don't believe social and economic collapse are possible should watch something else. Without that notion, these preps wouldn't make sense (unless one liked LARPing). I just blew my discretionary spending on solar power, prescription stockpiling, and water storage and treatment. For the time being I don't have the money to finish my .243WSSM AR. I really like that fat little over-bored cartridge even if I can only fit 8 in my modified 30rnd pmags. It's point blank range with 2" over and under limits is 300 yards. I don't buy into the notion that I will find loot piles with usable ammo in the post apocalyptic wastes if I just stick to the most common chamberings.
Best B roll footage on RUclips
GRW music is a nice touch
Think I’ll be sticking with my LE6940 & Elcan combo baby has never failed me 👍🏼
I like the Rimworld soundtrack. Thanks for the video.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the dead air keymo system and suppressors, good work as always.
one day, I'd like to own more suppressors before i feel qualified to talk on it
Ive owned at least one can from all of the common manufacturers. Keymo definitely one of the best QD lockup systems out there. Maybe the best.
Most of the cans from the most common large manufacturers are all excellent. Some designs are better than others imo, but quality is pretty good across the board. Choice will mostly come down to price / design / QD preference.
Only note i would make on DA cans, is if you are considering the Nomad, but dont ever plan to use direct thread, get the Sandman instead. Cheaper and slightly lighter, once you factor in the keymo adapter. Great can other than that though.
I just built an areo precision Matched upper lower AR-10 308 20-in barrel 12×50 haven't had a chance to take it out past 100yds but it's .5 moa at 100 screwing around... My 5th build 5.56/300 BO/6.5 Gren/458 Socom thinking Wilson 300 HAM-R next..Thanks for the information...
Nice video! I’m a new subscriber here. What mount do you have for your pistol red dot on the SPR?
You should train shooting prone in the snow. It will either make you want to change your kit accordingly or just train you to get used to the cold and damp.
I do. there's plenty of footage of me doing so.
Great fortune to me in finding this ad I'm in the early stages of putting together my rendition of an SPR for use in my AO (0-400m).
I can give you a reason why you want long range capabilities.
I was in the mountains with my nephew and brother, we parked our vehicle 400m from our campsite. We camped in an area out of view from the road but we can view the road and our vehicle . A few days into camping, some A holes were breaking into the vehicle, so we shot at them .
So attempted murder nice
And just so everyone knows for those who don’t, in the army the DMR is mostly used in a deliberate fashion, overwatch, support by fire, observation post and is a secondary weapon system to the rifleman usually carried disassembled , again depends on your mission if the goal is the make contacts in a forest, maybe don’t need it , if there’s an ODA within your NAI that’s perfect for overwatch to clear the NAI
Great video
Is that the Rim world intro?
Awesome video, thanks dude
the mad lad is doing it. He's watching/listening to it all.
@@BrassFacts slowly… but I’ll get there. This shit is way more valuable/informative/cooler than the majority of guntube.
"5.56 kinda sucks", for long range past 500 that's an understatement, makes for good wind call practice though! Why I went with an 18" 6.5 Grendel SPR profile barrel, so I could get more use out of it being able to hunt with it in multiple states that have minimum caliber requirements for big game at longer ranges vs a "varmint caliber" 5.56. Finding ammo down the road might be an issue if the poo hits the rotary air device, but that's what the OTHER upper is for right?!
I absolutely love my "spr" it's an armalite model M153GN18 which is 18 inch 1/8th twist ss rifle length gas hbar 3lb single stage ergo wide rubber grip which giga Chad keymod rail can't forget the adjustable gas block and adjustable muzzle break
Good stuff again. do yourself a favor and quit the high fructose at a young age! I have been using my SPR a bit more and realized it's heavy! Because of your vids, I had to get an RMR on my scope just incase for use with NODS.
Good info, but only here for the doggo at the end 👍
Good Info.
Good on you for training. A gpr is all 99% of us need. I had a M21 as a DMR and I loved it. At 12 pounds, I hated it. Combat is not open fields anymore. It’s your neighborhood street or your town. Speed and violence is all that will be needed. Just my 2 cents. One option, like in regiment, have a separate upper with a 20” barrel and a lpvo, switch out as necessary or as needs change.
Lol, you sound like me. Have a Bula Scout in a Blackfeather chassis, Criterion barrel, Schuster plug, Leupold VX5 3-15X44, cross drilled spindle for suppressed shooting, Sadlak Piston, CASM rail, Smith bolt release and more crap I've spent stupid money on, lol, and freaking LOVE THAT THING!!! But I'll be damned if I'm toting it around with me in SHTF or something, lol. Which is a shame, it's a versatile platform, I've run Black tips that went through armor, it's sub MOA if I do my part and turning off the gas and running subs like a straight pull bolt action is F-ing trick!! But she be a pig....
If you like 7.62 NATO, like me, take a look at the POF Revolution, or Wyndham AR10, besides the recoil (which you get used to), I'm a tad bit slower than running my MCX SBR 300BO suppressed, but not much slower.
Just a thought to throw your way. I wanted to ditch weight, but not my beloved 308 caliber.
@@rustywolf6813 mine was all courtesy of the US Army and the great taxpayers of America. It was/is a classic DMR. Once I move out of the communist state that I live in, I will buy one. They are banned where I live, thanks to the Democrats.
I carried this rifle everywhere but still had a m4 carbine. It was great to be able to reach out at distance but the weight was a bit much between the 308 and the 556 ammo we had to carry. Your rifle sounds like a beauty.
@@supertrooper7403 Thanks!! Yeah, they are heavy, but nice. I've never had to jump around a bunch of ammo plus 2 rifles, but I think, just my theory, lol, that I'd still choose 308 in a lighter platform. But who knows in real world. I've run courses with 308, but it's short running and not loaded down.
Think it comes down to if you have a car, other team mates, etc. In SHTF. They are tough not to love, though.
Was your's a Smith Enterprises DMR? Those are awesome, but ouch on the wallet.
@@rustywolf6813 I could divvy up extra ammo for the m21 amongst my squad mates so it did help. We were dismounted so everywhere was an adventure on foot....my recruiter said, “ man you will love the Infantry, trust me”.
No my rifle was 100% Springfield Armory.
Enjoy watching your videos the past few days, after the algorithm suggested your channel. Do you think for 500 to 600 yards, should one consider a 308 semiauto or go with the 18" AR15 and stay with 5.56? Thanks.
you could consider it. It really depends how likely the 500-600 yard shot is.
If it's rare within the context of your long range shooting, nah.
If it's fairly common, and perhaps wind is also a thing? Yeah.
You also have to consider the logistical aspect are you squared away with 556, are you ready for another ammo price spike in 5-10 years?
I couldn't help but notice... You asked one of the questions I had awhile back (2015); about a rifle using .308 cal. Vs .556.
I decided to get the Springfield M1A Scout Squad (18" barrel). It's a proven military battle rifle and still in use by the marine Corp and some army units as a DMR. The only issue for me is the cost of ammo : ( And it is heavy, relatively speaking.
To my knowledge, I am not aware of a more reliable weapon system using .308 (7.62 nato) in a semiautomatic shoulder carried rifle.
I also have a couple AR's and I would say they are easier to carry and hike(hump) with; ammo is less expensive and you can carry more rounds of .556, period. Probably double because .556 round looks to be half the size off .308(7.62) 🤷🏽♂️ I never weighed them to factually check.
God bless America 🇺🇸
@@e.manske7596 There dozens of other semiautomatic shoulder fired platforms that are chambered in 308-7.62x51. And most of them weigh significantly less than your M1A
Love the video man. I also like the western style music that plays subtly in the background
It’s from a game called Rimworld on steam
Good info
Interesting. This is kinda of a late reply. When you talk about optics... Iirc, the spr mod 0/1 was fitted with leupy 2-8. Ts30 I believe. Long been discontinued. I am cheap. I had a VXR with a german 4 reticle but sold it for an acog but being a regretful person, I recently bought a Leupy 2-7 vx freedom with hunters plex. Just a duplex with very very thick outer lines that tapered to thinner for the center. VXR's has been discontinued as well. Anywho, with my zero, I'm at +/- 3 inches out til 225 yards. Using the top of the post of the bottom line (which is 10 moa from center to top of the post of bottom line) I'm suppose to be good out to 495 yards. Would you consider that as an spr or gpr? I cant confirm a 495 yard shot cause my local range sucks. Use to go to 460 yards but residents complained and shit happened... So now it's only limited to 100 yards.
Btw I confirmed that the vx freedom is an etched reticle via customer service with leupy. Which I like.
Currently making a MK12 type build. 18” ballistic advantage ops12 barrel. 2 stage trigger, fixed magpul stock. Need a few more things to have it completed. Rifle is all set up just need accessories. I’ve been looking at the EOtech 1-10x scope (currently has an EOtech holographic sight) and still looking at bipods. Should I just have a more rifle set scope and 45° offset red dot?
What about running suppressors? I have the Surefire flash hider and already have a Surefire can. Looking at getting a suppressor cover too to stop mirage.
I mean that's really up to you.
This vide is basically LPVO vs MPVO. so it depends what you want and don't want.
If it's a really a mk12 style build. The need for the 1x is vastly reduced.
I have an AR10 that I’m building right now. It currently has iron sites and will soon have a x2 scope. My night vision will be pvs 7 goggles attached to my high cut helmet.
To be used for neighborhood defense in a SHTF scenario. Have a zeroing and practice range on my property.
How am I doing so far ?
It would be interesting to see you explore some of the alternative AR-15 caliber options for this rifle role, like 6.5 ARC and 6.8 SPC.
Agreed. I know everyone and their dog runs a 5.56, but let's do like Uncle Sam and start exploring other options.
Would you say the AK makes a good GPR? And do you plan to do any more videos with it?
I have or had them all. There is so much to be said for simple and light.
Often, those that want to dissuade you from preparing to defend your life, liberty or property are the ones looking to take them.
Another benefit of the SPR is having a precision(ish) rifle that looks a lot like every other rifle. Makes it hard for adversaries to spot and target the shooter in the group.
Thats alright, because I'm taking the guy out with the long antenna, first.
@traplordghost it looks more like every other rifle than an M21 or M24, or any other precision rifle in current use.
@traplordghost so you agree that a 20” AR pattern rifle looks a lot like any other AR pattern rifle at distance? Or was there another point you wanted to make?
@traplordghost you said a 20” AR doesn’t look like an AR, I said it looks more like an AR than any other precision weapon, to which you replied with an example of…an AR pattern rifle. Go pee up someone else’s leg scooter.
@traplordghost I read just fine. You picked a nit, based on a stupid opinion, with nothing to back it up but hot air and bad insults. Cry more.
“Maybe a bit tinfoily…” Love the disclaimer, but I watched anyway. Great channel.
Just a reminder that variation of tactic /technique is important and infantry load out is set up that way for a reason, hence forth your technical proficiencies and weapon capabilities should be taken into consideration during your EADEV (engagement area development) something to think about and if you’re alone and all you have is your SPR I promise you you’re not gonna die cause you picked the wrong load out lol
What gas block do you have? I just built my 18 spr with an mk12 gas block from thoroughbred armament. I put an mcmr rail over it and now see that the lower section is in contact with the rail which I'd assume defeats the purpose of free float. Using a bull spr barrel from BA
Yeah, that's no good. you don't want contact.
If I recal it's a Odin works mini gasblock or something. It's been a *long* time since I put this rifle together
Do you have any insight into using the 6.5 Grendel with a shorter than 16" barrel? On paper, it seems to do well out of even 10" barrels at 500+, but I haven't found a whole lot of real world data that would confirm it.
Sorry I'm not Brass Facts but I've thought about this topic a bit so I'll give my .02 if you like.
It really just comes down to logistics. I've gotten away from the notion that you will battlefield pickup ammo or anything but be prepared to accept that however many rounds you have may well be the amount of rounds you will ever be able to shoot. This is pretty obvious in a complete collapse but as we've seen, even in relatively stable times, the last cartridges that will be available (even if at astronomical prices) are going to be .22lr, 9mm, .223/5.56, 7.62x39 and .308. Also, consider parts. Stock up on bolts, as they will break faster than similar quality 5.56 bolts. Reliable magazines are less ubiquitous of course. Finally, if you are in a group, consider ammo commonality. The purpose of the Mk12 was to get as close to a sniper/dm role as possible without moving to a different cartridge. SF guys around that time shot Mk262 out of everything simply due to increased lethality over M855 (perceived or real) so everyone had ammo for the SPR and he had ammo for everyone with no loss of zeroes.
One very fringe consideration would be footprint. One of the original advertised benefits of the Masada turned ACR was the ability to swap to "local" ammunition. Not so much for logistics but to hide your activity as a pile of x39 cases on the ground of Middle Eastern countries wouldn't advertise your presence as much as a pile of 5.56 cases. 6.5 Grendel would stick out very much in any environment really. Like I said, fringe/minor but it's something.
As for the performance itself, Grendel is great for being able to shoot past 1000 with an AR-15 lower but long barrels are the ticket for maximum efficiency. IMHO, an accurate, well setup 16" 5.56 is a 600 yard gun all day, 800 if you needed to push it, and the tradeoffs of less ammo for a given weight/mag count/budget + less availability and harder to source parts aren't worth a few inches of barrel for me. YMMV.
@@grif5447 Thanks for the input. More often than not, the nuances found on the "fringe" of a topic are at the very least intriguing to consider. Would not have thought about leaving a brass foot-print...
If this helps. Out of my 12.5 inch Grendel. 100 grain I get a MV of 2298 and G1 of .415. Configured off my Labradar. With wolf ammo and I can go 3/3 on a 5inch plate at 300 yards with a primary arms 1x6. The mags are eh kinda not awesome. Occasionally malfunctions. I like it, but honestly a 14.5 inch 556 and a midlength gas system is where I lean to.
my biggest issue is that I can't afford it. cost is not just the rifle
but staking about 5k + rounds for both usage, and to protect against ammo scares.
I also need to buy enough ammo to train on the new system with.
In the end it's not worth the squeeze to venture away from the standard cartridges until I win the lottery.
Yeah, a short Grendel would be cool! I'm building a 16" Grendel with a PA 4-14x. In my mind, it only works out because I'm sharing the lower with a 18" 5.56 upper, if SHTF. 5.56 is nice, until you get past 300 or 400 yards. By then, it's not even dumping enough energy to create big enough splash in the dirt to see. But then again, a lightweight Grendel sending 123's could actually be a handful if it's not tuned well.
This is where the 6mm ARC comes in, shooting 105-108's.
Sweet spot for that one is probably an 18" rifle-length with an adjustable gas block. If Geissele likes 6mmARC enough to build magazines for it....then it must be pretty good.
Intro unmatched ! Let’s get back to pcc
Good video, one thing you might want to try, set your red dot on a 45 degree offset. That way you keep cheek weld and just rotate a bit.
With it on top you can use the RDS ambi easily. As well as it can be used to get into a target area quickly and just drop your eyes into the glass for the precision shot
The main "point" for that RDS for me is
indexing the rifle on target at distance, and night vision shooting.
1x daytime shooting is my 3rd consideration. The first two work far better in the 12oclock.
@@BrassFacts what is the mount for your red dot on this setup?
I'd say the main reason why one might "need" a SPR/DMR is if they have a lot of acreage to protect or if they're a hunter. Otherwise technically one doesn't "need" one because at those distances that sure as heck isn't self defense. On the other hand it's like you said, we don't have to need anything to get it in America. Plus, in a SHTF scenario all bets are off.
I have 340 acres of land, with a huge mountainous wildlife preserve on one side, and miles upon miles of farmland in every other direction. I have two ARs; an 18" barreled 6.5 Grendel and a 9" barreled .300BLK SBR. That little .300BLK is a cool gun to take to the range and to courses, and I do throw it in my truck when I'm doing drives around the city to collect parts and supplies, but on a day-to-day basis, that 18" "SPR" is a workhorse. Great for deer hunting, great for picking off coyotes and groundhogs and pigs and such, not heavy or unwieldy to carry around for long periods... it's my favourite firearm. And if the end of the world came calling and I had to worry about hordes of zombies or something like that, it would be my constant companion out here. If the ATF came knocking tomorrow and told me I could only keep one long gun, I'd send that SBR out the door and keep my Grendel in a heartbeat.
I notice you shoot left handed, thoughts on Stag or Sig M400? Really dig your channel 🤙🏼
right handed rifles are fine for lefties. Not real benefit imo
I spy that Rimworld soundtrack. Very nice.
Good video. Probably a good idea to blur or edit out that Utah license plate...
First time watching, really like the out of the box intelligence you bring to the table, the question is (Primarily in a rural wooded area) would you go with a (gpr) first 5.56 like a 14.5-16” with an lpvo and rds and then going for a more qualified Spr 308.... With my 3-10X with parallax adjustment. Of course that would be ideal, but even a GPR AR & a 308 bolt action would be nice too. Geuss I'm asking if you would rather have both or just one that can do both pretty good?
If the question is "general use" the answer is always 5.56, GPR
The ability to fight at 200 yards an in always supersedes my ranged capability.
That being said, I wouldn't say no to a semi-auto 308 platform and in some ways, if you have long sight lines can make up for it's downfalls.
My DMR’s are on the heavy side, I keep my GPR I keep simple and lightweight. My truck gun is an AMD65 with irons, 0-100 is all I’m worried about in a truck gun. I’m a fan of 1-6 LPVO with BDC for my GPR, 0-300 yards. I have guns set up out to 1000 but the chances of needing them in a SHTF situation is slim.
My problem with an spr in 223 is it at mine as well be a GPR now once you start talking about 6 Arc 30 Remington AR or an AR-10 platform which in my opinion is a battle rifle that your magnification that you getting your optic in a one to six one to eight or 1 to 10 power in a GPR is adequate for a 223 also if you go into different calibers like 300 block out in a rifle length 450 Bushmaster stuff like that would that also be a special purpose