The BIGGEST RETCON In Dragon Ball Z
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- Опубликовано: 7 мар 2023
- In this video @LSMMIKE discusses The BIGGEST RETCON In Dragon Ball Z.
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the biggest retcon was the idea that despite being born with a higher power level than goku, goku has stayed ahead of vegeta due to working harder and stuff. now in super, “potential” has allowed people to skip all training and catch up to beings who’ve been trained by literally gods and gods amongst gods.
also, remember how it took goku 18 years to reach a power level of 300? now he gains 300 walking out the door
Lmfao. But also, despite that being a good joke, power levels aren't linear, farmer with a shotgun is 5, Moonbuster Roshi is 280. Those two numbers are not in a linear relationship based on power lmfao. Power levels become linear somewhere around 4000-6000 ish. because at that point Kaio Ken doubling your battle power actually does double your stated power level.
@@ExtraVictory i’d argue that it’s linear the entire time. it’s just that people with single digit power levels can’t use ki and that’s where a lot of the impressive feats and manipulation of power levels comes from
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 it's hard to make that case because why would there be a cutoff point for ki lol. It's established that everyone has Ki, so the ki feats would just get weaker the lower your level is, not disappear. Which is more in line with a nonlinear scale where battle power 5 is massively greater than battle power 4. Not the total disappearance of ki and ki control at lower battle powers. I mean we have seen plenty of superhuman feats from characters who are incredibly low in battle power. Not to mention we have incredibly blatant superhuman feats from guys like Mr Satan, who also lost to a gun. Which is a very clear indicator since farmer with a shotgun is 5. And we know from King Cold and trunks that highly effective weapons do factor into threat level and battle power analysis for the Frieza force. Plus Some of those fodder henchmen guyd don't even shoot their own energy blasts but use wrist mounted energy launchers. So when Hercule outspeeds the naked eye and blitzes the guy with the gun. Also taking shots from literally perfect cell and being thrown into a cliff lmfao. But then can also lose to a gun, His battle power must still be low enough to lose to a 5 but he can also still do superhuman things which is clearly ki and ki manipulation just at a very low, single digit scale. Same with the Early budokai fighters who could jump into the stratosphere or punch 50 times in a second. Both cases aren't perfect, there is no perfect solution because this was all made up on the fly and there are tons of inconsistencies and retcons lol. But basically the idea that ki is an on&off switch at a certain threshold makes even less sense to me than it becoming linear at some point
since super (and somewhat the cell saga) thats false imo
now you see vegeta working exponentially harder than kakarot but staying behind
for reference goku trains for x period of time and now only when theres an inbound threat, and vegeta trains nonstop (kinda lile tien but saiyan levels)
again something to explain that would be toriyama's lack of involvement in the story (super), and vegeta's training taking a toll on his body since he doesnt rest well/sleep well/play/whatevers the turtle school's motto like goku (late z)
@@ExtraVictory valid points. i was mostly basing my argument off the fact that Videl doesn’t truly “awaken” until Gohan teachers her ki control.
Watching Dragon Ball really shows how out of the wack the world of DBZ is, it's like a whole new other manga.
-Kami was THE GOD and watcher of the earth; The reason why he's in the lookout is because he can watch the entire human race from up there. That's straight from mythologies.
-Speaking of, the world was populated with a lot of fantasy things. A castle in flames, a rabbit who turned people into carrots, dinossaurs and monsters co-existing alongside humans, even animal people existing alongside humans
-A bunch of martial arts schools. The turtle school, crane school and even assassins like Tao pai pai. All of that lost and forgotten after.
-Goku and Piccolo being top tier warriors, only for them to be severe weaklings with a PL of 400 next to even scrubs of frieza's army
Power Level is a terrible thing in DBZ.
The setting lost a lot of it's old charm and depth after DBZ. Like the idea that the Earth was filled with sagely Martial Artists, and mystical phenomenon - witnessed and recorded by many for centuries, only for it all to be considered performative trickery just some two decades later. The Star Wars comparison is quite apt because this is basically the transition that happens from the Prequels to the Originals...
Which now that you mention it begs the question of HOW did kami miss Dr Gs work on the androids from back to after goku beat the RR army to also bobbidi landing on earth with THE WHOLE DEMON KING in tow as a servant?
Hell, can you imagine one of those Frieza soldiers destroying the moon with one of their potato guns? They average a power 10× stronger than the guy we saw do it in DB, yet it somehow doesn't seem at all believable due to their standing. This is what happens when the power-scaling drastically increases like this. You can have characters who are considered fodder be so much more powerful than old legends just because they're introduced in the next series. Yet they still don't amount to much...
@Andrew Ace hell, king piccolo entire story is that he killed almost everyone on earth until he was sealed by mutaito (roshi's master) with the mafuba. King piccolo couldnt have a PL higher than 400. Later we see earthlings training a few months with Kami only for them to surpass raditz who had a PL of 1200.
Like knowing that, it makes no sense how king piccolo caused so much havoc back in the day lol
To be fair, Goku being an alien is a relatively weak retcon if it's actually one at all. In DB, Goku is constantly perceived as someone _abnormal_ . From his youthful body, crazy appetite, incredible strength, to the fact that he literally has a tail, Goku is very much an abnormality to the DB world. This is despite the fact that there are talking cats, pigs, and dogs as well as people with three eyes just randomly walking around. Goku is seen as weird for having a tail yet no one even bats an eye at Tien having three eyes, Krillin not having a nose, or Boss Rabbit being a giant magical talking rabbit.
This on top of the fact that we never meet his parents nor are they even alluded to while Grandpa Gohan is constantly referenced. It's fair to say that Goku being a retcon is pretty small, if a retcon at all.
It's still a large retcon, albeit one that makes a lot of sense in universe.
But yeah it changed the dynamic from comic adventure to pure action and from fantasy to Scifi
Pre-DBZ every character had the potential to be just as strong as Goku. Once Saiyans were introduced, no other species matters.
@@AutumnPlains actually they did in early stages, but then SSJ was introduced and Zenkai boosts became ridiculous. Also humans in DBZ never pushed themselves in the same style as sayians, never trained with 100 G, and never trained in Time Chamber.
@@alexzero3736 If they have learned kaio ken they would have probably been able to keep up honestly
Seems less like a “retcon” and more like world building. It didn’t deny any preexisting standards because no one knew WHY Goku had a tail, or why he became an Oozaru, or anything about him at all. The dynamic of the story definitely changed, and other retcons WERE introduced after this point, but it’s a pretty natural twist to the story. Even if I still prefer the fantasy aspect.
I’d say an even bigger retcon was Piccolo and Kami discovering they are Namekians, rather than demons they had been established to be.
I think one of the biggest retcons in dbz is that Vegeta shook the whole planet when he was powering up in the Saiyan saga. Yet anytime someone tries very hard to power up after that, planet earth barely feels anything
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Could be how he controls his ki.
The best head canon I can think of is that fighters get better at controlling their ki and keeping it under control, compressed, and/or concentrated. It somehow makes the ki stronger, but it spreads less and the explosions are just smaller.
I just thought it was fighters being like, “Yeah, no, I gotta get stronger, but I don’t want to destroy the planet I am literally on right now.”
Early vegeta had high power (for that time) but low Ko control. He let it spill out of him instead of holding it in
I mean, SSJ3 Goku shakes the world when Goku is first using it, yet when he has full control over it in Super, it doesn't even affect King Kai's planet. The better they get at Ki control, or the more accustomed they become to a form or level of power, the less they seem to cause unintended collateral to their surroundings. It would also explain why nobody ever seems to use their full power upon reaching a new level. They're probably trying to acclimate a little bit at a time without causing too much destruction or loosing control.
Or at least, that's been my theory for a while. Think of Goku vs Beerus causing damage to the universe juxtaposed with Goku vs Hit barely affecting the ring they were in despite being a battle of a much higher level...
As important as Raditz was to the story, I feel like he was severely underused.
Even if it is a retcon, I think it's a well done one. It offers an interesting explanation for Goku's incredible strength and martial aptitude, and it doesn't contradict anything that was particularly plot-relevant.
Plus, it opens up the story in some really fun ways.
Agreed
Except until they introduced zenkai in the Namek saga his martial aptitude was on the same level as the other humans. Maybe even less. He was just ahead of them on the curriculum. Goku trained with Roshi while Yamcha trained on his own, Yamcha got to train with Roshi after Goku moved on to Korin then the same with Kami and King Kai. The humans always came out way stronger after training with each master than Goku did with the same master.
it's okay to be wrong sometimes
@@denickart I mean they were already stronger than him when they started the journey so they would getting better results
True. Retcons often have a negative connotation because they tend to feel wrong or lazy. Here, it was done in a smart way as it didn't cause any inconsistency, plot hole, or break any existing rule.
I really would like to know what planet the saiyans were ready to attack but needed four big saiyan guys to wipe out the native population.
Which is weird cuz I mean, let’s be honest, great ape Vegeta could annihilate almost any planet by himself
@protoman2260 if you consider the fact that Vegeta (base to base) was the strongest known saiyan (don't go getting a tism for Broly) by far, 4 saiyan warriors most likely middle class are reasonable
Space Austria. Unfortunately, they would have been soloed by Harold.
Probably no planet Toriyama ever conceptualized. But in terms of theories, I have an idea...
@@reptilian_geneticist Right. These discussions are always full of speculation, but as you correctly observed with the discussion on the dramatic depiction of powerups, the reality is often pretty simple... There isn't any big answer behind this stuff because it was never really thought through very thoroughly...
Seriously can't imagine what it must have been like to be a kid in Japan who'd been following the manga for years only to be hit by _this_ chapter
Decades of watching and reading Dragon Ball content, almost every second new thing feels like a retcon of something that came before.
because dragon ball makes no sense
@@LavaCreeperPeople mostly bc of toriyama
Toriyama flies by the seat of his pants most of the time, he doesnt actually have a plan he initially through that dragón ball was only going to last like a year and finish with them finding the dragón balls, then it keept going and going
@@carso1500 General knowledge.
@LavaCreeperPeople I hate when people say this. Yes, it does make sense. It's not as stupid as nitpicky fans claim it is. It's pretty straightforward and plotholes don't really pop up until the Buu Saga. Even then, the plotholes aren't that significant
They never actually said Goku was a human, and they always said he was mysterious/different So it’s not a retcon. It’s just something new being revealed
Not really, remember how when dragon ball originally came out had a weekly release? Well toriyama himself has admitted that he didn’t have a script and he came with the story as he was drawing the chapters every week
That’s why out of nowhere goku is an alien, that’s why all piccolo’s brother’s were weird, because at the time they were actually demons and not namekians
It's really disappointing how many people skip straight to Z. They miss so much
To be fair Toriyama said in an interview that he thought of Goku and Piccolo being aliens when he created Kami-sama. I think this was about a year before the in-universe so there was some prep from the author.
Still a retcon though but I don't think it's a bad one. It was definitely the most dramatic when it comes to the story though.
Which would be a nice series to have where you talk about every retcon there is
Talk about how in the very same conversation about the Dragon Balls that Raditz transmits to Vegeta and Nappa, Piccolo refers to Goku by name, but then when the Saiyans arrive, they don't know who this "Goku" they keep referring to is.
We could chalk that up as them not listening due to focusing on Raditz's death, Dragon Balls, and Egos.
the saiyans calling themselves the strongest in the universe reminds me of the hyuga clan calling themselves the strongest in the leaf
trueish depending on the time lol
it's consisent with the plot considering the Sayanis pride.
Honestly when you factor in the 10X Oozaru boost they probably weren't exaggerating. Dodoria and Zarbon were considered as elites in Freizas army with power levels of 23,000 and 30,000. A single Saiyan with a power level of 2,000-3,000 (which was considered to be the average) could look up at the moon and match that. Imagine if Freiza's entire army (minus Freiza himself) had to go against the entire Saiyan race? The Saiyans would absolutely stomp them. Hell if Freiza was limited to his first form and he had to fight them he'd probably get overwhelmed and lose.
@@genericwhitemale9566 wouldn't the Ginyu force be too much for them along with them being able to get rid of any moon in a fight if they wanted
@@ZzigZaG00NIN well the Ginyu Force minus Ginyu had powers of like 40-60K each and they have to fight hundreds of 20-30Ks. Plus there are the top Saiyans like Bardock, King Vegeta and Kid Vegeta who each had a PL of 10K which is 100K in Oozaru. They'd get wiped. Plus the elites like Nappa and Vegeta can make power balls.
@@genericwhitemale9566 I think First Form Frieza would only lose to the Saiyans if he got cocky.
He's fast enough that none of them could touch him, and he could just destroy the planet.
If that's not allowed, I think he could just hit-and-run. He might starve or fall asleep eventually, though, depending on how many Saiyans there are.
Although DBZ is more popular, DB is VERY unique. It follows Journey to the West and uses the Hero's Journey as a base. Each character had purpose. Bulma is a genius who uses technology and funds the adventure. Goku wasn't very smart because he was ignorant of the world, but his fighting ability and innocence made him vital to the mission. Yamcha had abilities, connections, and knowledge of the world. Master Roshi was...a MASTER. Even later on, we get Kami was god of the Earth (Not a simple alien among hundreds of thousands of other alien races). Krillin became a friend and rival around Goku's age unlike Yamcha. DBZ made many of these characters useless, and also took the series away from the earth being a magical place with burning castles, dinosaurs, Ox Kings, Monkey Boys (Goku), special martial arts techniques like Solar Flares, Wolf Fang Fists, and Kamehamehas. Now it's just who can generate the biggest ki blast.
Yeah everything after og DB is mid in comparison
Now we kinda had came back with mastering techniques being now the goal for Goku and Vegeta, characters like Granola had a unique fighting style and it doesn't focus in Ki blast
Z has the better plot and made the series more story based, but I do miss the adventure and the different techniques.Though Krillin and Bulma were more relevant in Z than OG, Yamcha hasn't had a major role since Pliaf,Roshi goal was to official retire so he wasn't gonna be relevant agian.The only character I'll say become unfairly irrelevant is Tien but Z treated its side characters better than OG.
@@veryangryboi4128 I disagree with Z treating the side characters better. Tien always wanted to be a master martial artist and they sidelined him. We agree with that. But Yamcha desired to train and fight, so much so that he quit baseball. He got blown up by a saibaman and down went his career. Then the one who had him killed married his girl! 😂. Never heard from Oolong or Puar. AT literally forgot that Launch existed! Piccolo’s ONLY victory in Z was against Raditz. Well, maybe a Saibaman? And although Krillin was important, he really wasn’t. He helped Gohan out, but anybody could have done that actually. His place wasn’t special because of HIM but because they needed ONE sidekick character and they picked Krillin instead of Yamcha, Tien, or Chiaotzu.
@Raphi Games Yamcha has been humiliated during the tournaments and never did anything outside of them,he and Bulma had a bad relationship.He and Krillin were only there to make Goku look good.Oolong and Puar (aside from one small fight)hadn't been relevant since Pliaf,Lunch was just a gag she never contributed to the plot.Piccolo didn't got any wins but he lead the team and was even the strongest for sometime.Krillin took part in defeating Vegeta,kept the dragon balls away from Vegeta and Frezia,lead the team when everyone was dead,the reason 18 is on there side,and technically killed Cell.Yamcha and Tien wouldn't have succeeded like Krillin has.
Yo been going on a binge with your content. Keep it up man!
Imagine the surprise when your favorite ongoing story goes from "Journey To The West" to "Let's Go Fight Space Real Estate Agents!"
The journey to the west part ended at the conclusion of the pilaf saga
personally i love it. It is such a Toriyama way of doing things to just throw everything in the past to the wayside to facilitate his next goals with the story. Just a serious boss move on his part where he is like: nah we are doing science shit now lol.
LMFAO! He really just does whatever the f works for him in the moment. All else be damned. I flicker between respecting that and hating it 🤣
Nicr hairline, btw...
Goku's origins have been retold multiple times at this point...
no it has not ☠️
I'd just like to point out how silly Vegeta and company, or anyone else in the universe were for buying the claim that Planet Vegeta, a world that held advanced technology and interstellar capabilities, not only failed to detect an asteroid at the point where it was close enough be a threat, but we're unable to escape it with their space travel, or unable to destroy it or knock it off course with either technology, or the combined abilities of a race that had the power to raze entire worlds...
If i remember correctly Vegeta said he never believed it.
except that asteroid was freeza
if a dictator tells you an asteroid hit it are u going to question that dictator and more then likely have you whole species eradicated?
@@cyberdemon6517 Yes, of course...
@@simbaking67 Yes, naturally nobody is going to openly contradict him, but you must realize that even dictators can't control what people think and say in secret, no? And trust me when I say, people tend to secretly distrust and despise them. Especially when they spew flagrant bs that they force people to swallow.
I would not call this a retcon because nothing from original dragon ball had to make this new information correct. It’s like the potara earrings only lasting an hour for mortals, In dbz we never actually knew why they defused so giving a reason much later (even if he had not thought of that reason at the time) does not retroactively change anything.
it was a retcon to change the potarra fusion. in fact, super retconned itself to make that retcon.
the new rules of potarra state
“fusion is only permanent if one of the beings involved was a supreme mai”
so where’s the contradiction? in super, they introduce the time rings that zamasu steals however the u10 supreme kai states that
“only a supreme kai can use the ring”
so what does zamasu do? he kills the supreme kai and steals his earrings which allows him to use the ring.
so what does this tell us? it tells us that the earrings are the important thing. not the person wearing it. so by supers logic with the time ring, any being wearing supreme kai earrings is considered a supreme kai. so by this logic, all fusion should be permanent.
so yeah. super retcons itself to then retcon dbz. all potarra fusions should be permanent
@FullTimeSlacker II you do know the meaning of retcon right? Vegito defusing happened in Z with no explanation, where in super they explain what took place. That is Not a retcon whatsoever
@@carmelosmith8782 potara fusion was literally made clear to be permanent. Fixing a plothole with a retcon still makes it a retcon
The potara was definitely a retcon lol. They didn’t flat out say it but it was hinted that the reason was due to magic in Buu. Cause ain’t no way it just happened to be an hour as soon as the barrier went down.
@@jassinbarth6375 that's not the case whatsoever as we seen that the fusion was not permanent in z and z 😐if the fusion was permanent they wouldn't of defused. Secondly It established In Z that fusion in fact wasn't permanent meaning that the retconned took place in Z. In super they give a clear explanation of what happened in Z. How Is super retconned something that was already established in Z?
In my opinion, it an more of a reveal than an retcon hut there are definitely some things that changed. I think that the biggest retcon is Bardocks origanal backstory compared to the on in the Broly movie.
The Bardock retcon was so disappointing
@@ashlirabid9614 How
It was a more canonnical retelling then a retcon
Bardock's original backstory isn't canon though
I agree with not just Bardock but the sayian race retcon because even if the Bardock story wasn't cannon the thing that was cannon was the sayians were fearless viscous warriors ready to fight anyone. Yet in Super we see they are hiding in a bell towers waiting to snipe Freiza with a blaster. While the sayians were afraid of Feiza, when angered they wouldn't back down even in the face of death. In Super you never get that feeling from them vs Z where both Dadoria, Raditz, Vegeta, and a few others really paint the sayians in a very different light.
It is a retcon, however there are a few references to Goku possibly being an alien in the earlier chapters of the manga. Mostly jokes, but there is a time when I believe Tao Pai Pai asks if he is even human and Goku responds with "I don't know. I do have a tail, so maybe I'm not. Obviously I don't think Toriyama had this in mind in the beginning, but he definitely played with the idea here and there that Goku might not be human.
that means it wasn't a retcon
@@simbaking67 it's still a retcon, because it still wasn't the original idea. For him to be an alien from planet Vegeta sent to destroy the planet. It's a retcon that works well because Toriyama looked at jokes and off-hand comments he wrote in the manga in the past and said this would be an interesting idea, let's actually do it.
@@PatLund do you have proof of that? an interview where he says otherwise? your projecting head canon at this point
@@simbaking67
I doubt he was planning to make him an alien from the start since the story was just supposed to be a one off in the first place (meant to end when they first found the Dragon Balls).
@@WikiThis dragon ball was not meant to be a one off what are u talking about
Although it can be considered a seperate retcon, I feel the Kami/Piccalo thing also should be included with this. Making the unamed warrior a Namekian rather than a mortal who split into a demon and a God as well as the DragonBall's being a Namekian power implicates a lot of differences to the world of DragonBall. Not only was the guardian of the world an immigrant to it, but a lot of what was considered world lore for this earth was false. Earthlinga could not just split themselves through meditation, it was a Namekian power. The Dragonballs and Eternal Dragon was not something that could be done by anyone in the position of Kami but exclusively a Namekian. Demons are still in existance but unrelated species to Piccalo which also infers differences to their origins..at least in part. It was prior believed that king piccalo was a demon resulting from the unnamed warrior separating all his concentrated evil. This then infers that at least some demons are directly created from the evil of mortals being concentrated and that the species as a whole could have origins in this. Now that we know King Piccalo wasn't actually a demon and mortals can't really separate this way, this discou ts those details about the demon race in DragonBall. It even starts to open up the possibility that the biodiversity found in the world of DragonBall could partially be owed up to the influence of alien species that hadn't been identified as such in the past. We quickly learn that the Saiyans were not the first extra terrestrials to reach and hold a severe impact on this version of earth thanks to the sent Namekian. Before this reveal, we just assume Kakorot was the first example of this, it then we quickly find that wasn't the case..it even seems fated since the Namekians were the strongest on the planet to an unrealistic level so only another being from beyond earth could justifiably be a challenge to them. It is interesting though, because none of the other mystical beings in DragonBall who SHOULD be able to recognize when someone is not of earth had done so regarding these characters. There is some real extended mystical lore about the way the earth is structured and the kinds of beings that exist in it, but when DBZ occurs, a lot of that is dropped. The DragonBall more resembles the end of feudal Japan where most of the country was still stuck in the same rural state it had been for a long time but the big hub cities were seeing western influence and advancement. By DBZ that is gone for a much more modern civilization setting and the mythological areas seem to disappear. You must keep in mind these were real places linked to the mortal world and existing in real space along with it. When Goku and ChiChi travel to the afterlife realm at the end of DragonBall, they just physical travel there. This all fades and the remaining supernatural things start to be owed up to sci-fi with Kami/Piccali being a major one. They remain but are just explained differently..which in itself lead to the most impacting and controversial retcons in the series. Kami isn't as special as he seems. He is still an exceptional Namekian and there is the fact we prior felt any Kami could make DragonBall. However, now that we know other Namekians exist, have powers the same as Kami/excusing his and can use them even when he is Kami, caused the dragonballs to shift considerably. Prior to this, they were not something that could be counted on much. They were the big end all to any story arch and still came with limits. Only one wish per year, after brining them together from the ends of the earth, while competing with a whole world who wants them AND certain wishes couldn't be made. What's more, Shen Ron CAN be killed and only Kami can make the balls. Now, we have a whole race of beings who can potentially do this, make much more powerful versions and resurrect each other if one dies. Kami is no longer a God who can bestow the power of miracles to the worthy few but just one powerful being of many who can be asked to do this. It greatly reduced the steaks and took a lot away form the orgional DragonBall. Keep in mind how much time and plot was dedicated to these balls. They were such a big deal and Goku convincing Kami to revive them felt like a huge accomplishment. It really felt like a mortal convincing God to have faith in humanity enough again to grant them an opportunity toward their own salvation. Now it is the poop of a bunch of alien slugs that can duece ex machina whenever they need it. 🙄 Piccalo certainly grew as a character and it was great to see that evolution but it still felt like a partial loss when Goku became an alien and so did Kami/Piccalo. So much of the established values in this world was shifted and lost.kami was never the kind of omnipotent monotheic God, but he was still more than be became. He was a mortal that did the near impossible to earn a rank of such reverence. Now we learn he used his natural species advantaged to become an ET babysitter for the world. It's still a lot to be respected for but also not anywhere as much as we thought. He was by default given more of an advantage over any earthling to obtain the role..ironically.
Raditz “You may be sorry you asked”
Goes on to get retconed 57 times*
I always felt like the Raditz version of the story was part of the History of Trunks past, and when Goku and everyone dies and Trunks goes to a different past would have a different history of Goku
They hinted all through DB that Goku wasnt human. Was just watching an episode the other day where they said "he cant be human" lol
That dub was created in 2002...
@@ruppelspoopels Even in the manga they were making references that Goku might be an alien. Hell in the Pilaf saga itself in the manga Oolong straight up says “That kid gotta be an alien”
Sure it was more tongue in cheek jokey lines but Toriyama made the joke multiple times in the manga.
They had a robot in dragonball scan
Goku and say he wasen't from the
Planet .
@@ruppelspoopels But the anime wasnt... Major Metallitron scanned Goku near the beginning of DB and concluded he wasnt from earth.
They constantly refer to Goku as being abnormal throughout the entire DB manga. This is despite there literally being a Dog President. The joke stops being a joke when Goku is constantly called out for having a tail and being weird yet absolutely no one cares about Tien having a third eye, Krillin not having a nose, or Pwar being a talking magical flying cat.
Hey man your videos are informative and easy to follow keep up the good content.
I don't know if I would say Goku's relieve to be a sayian is the biggest retcon because it's always hinted that Goku isn't like everyone else from his great strength, to his awesome fighting abilities, even learning the kamahama wave after only watching Master Roshi do it once, the alien reveal was a great way to explain how Goku us able to do things he does. I would say the biggest early retcon would have to be power levels and how each character is viewed even when the official dizenshu reveals power levels from times in dragon ball it really throws the whole series out of wack by going what's the point of some of these characters even showing up to battle at this point we know they can't win vs in Dragon Ball they might win or be more helpful.
Great vids bro. Always enjoy your stuff
I think a bigger one was making Frieza suddenly the one giving orders to the Sayians when originally they were off doing evil deeds for the fun of it. Remember when Vegeta blew up that planet with one finger? That was not him being forced to follow orders.
Wasn't that filler tho ?
It's a good retcon because they were some lines from characters in episodes, where they question if Goku is really a human being from earth before raditz.
So, it's a pretty good retcon, if you didn't knew any better, you would have think Toriyama knew it since the beg.
Funny thing is that the very first episode of DBZ that I ever saw was when piccolo was training gohan. I vaguely remember watching AN episode of Dragon ball but I couldn’t tell ya what arc.
If you described it to me, I might be able to tell...
Almost guaranteed that's Saiyan saga since that's the only time he spends a considerable amount of time training with Piccolo. Freiza saga they don't really train together-Piccolo shows up to be Freiza's pew pew bag, Cell Saga Gohan trains with his dad instead, and Buu Saga Piccolo really only trains Goten and Trunks.
@@AndrewAce. i remember kid Goku and he was in a cave or tunnel or something. They were looking for something maybe. It’s so vague that I have no idea what arc it was lol
@@protoman2260 Lmao. I feel you. Those memories are always so foggy. There are many such instances, but a few come to mind:
Goku and Yajirobe looking for the super divine water in this illusory shadow realm so they could defeat King Piccolo.
Goku, Bulma, and Krillin searching the undersea cavern's pirate bay for the Dragonball while dealing with the RR.
There was also an instance of Goku entering the demon land while on his training journey leading up to the 23rd WMAT.
Or perhaps it took place in Muscle tower, while him and Android 8 were trapped in the monster Buyon's lair.
I'm case you can't tell, Dragonball is VERY interesting and adventurous with its setting...
Not to mention how stupid of an idea it is to send an infant to conquer a planet decades later. Instead of sending one adult that can do it in like a week.
Well, adults have bigger fish to fry, that's the whole point of sending a kid to these planets that we don't really care of, nor the kids themselves.
@@thelargesmoke4197 doesn't make any sense.
@@renatoramos8834 These children are a disgrace to them because they're weak. In their minds, these children would be useless if they stayed on Planet Vegeta, so they prefer to have a chance to benefit from them by sending them to distant planets, to conquer it, become stronger, etc.
@@renatoramos8834 It's because Saiyans always send kids on missions and earth was more suitable for weak ass kakarot.
@@RizzRoss9001 BS
If you think about it, kung fu and fantasy was huge in the 80s, sci-fi took over in the 90s and what’s the biggest thing right now? Superheroes
How did Cell know that Frieza and King Cold met their end at the hands of Trunks when Goku was the one who defeated them in Cell's timeline?
Plot hole
It makes sense for a lot of this to be also inspired by superman
Toriyama is notorious for making things up as he goes along, it is what I like least about his work, that approach keeps people guessing but invariably results in a shallower and altogether less cohesive world than when things are planned out in broad strokes first. Toriyama is lucky that his haphazard narrative ended up as coherent and beloved as it did.
Agreed. That style probably really worked well with his earlier lighter series Dr. Slump but doesn't translate well when trying to write an overarching narrative.
@@goldman77700 Stories like Babylon 5 where they had the whole thing planned out in general terms and could exercise more creativity in the gaps, they result in excellent stories with all the plot and character development you could hope for. Making it up as you go precludes that as you can hardly have development if you do not know where you want to go, the most you can really get is character change which is much inferior.
Very true and rewatching Dragon Ball I can get making it up along the way because from day one Goku was dropping dinosaurs snd crushing boulders with his bear fists and even when we see Master Roshi power up and blow up whole mountains and even the moon, and in Dragon Ball. Z he's supposed to be weaker than the other Z fighters yet other than Piccolo and the sayians even Goku couldn't generate that much energy.
Because dragon Ball manga is come out in 80-90s, back then we as kids dont know Good writing and the industry still not developed, this kind of writing is normal back then.
if contemporary manga have this kind of writing they will flop. See boruto, they added Aliens, androids and retconed many aspect in naruto but it ruined the world and the sales drop.
@@donovanbradford8231 Yes they could
The biggest retcon is clearly Vegeta's hair in GT, I mean he's the one who told us a Saiyan's hair is the same from the day they are born!
...Not.. qiute... there is ONE explaination I can think of. it was shorter in gt... not longer. . so I imagine he STYLIZED his hair(GOT it trimmed to look like that).
What vegeta told goku was that a saiyans hair remains the same since the day they are born(as in DOESN'T grow... or naturally change), then bulma adds that line of "oh.. so than that must be why you never needed a hair cut goku", but this NEVER meant that that means that a saiyans hair is impervious to modifications, or rather... NOBODY ever said that a saiyan cant just trim their hair.
But... if that's what vegeta did, then I guess, in gt's continuity, THAT has now become his new permanant hair since a saiyans hair NEVER grows back... either that. . or he just continues shaving the thing until his hair-do... becomes a hair-no more. . .(lmao), sometimes the best answer to a question, is one simple, easy but REALLY overlooked one(lol).
Lol that’s not a retcon. When he said that, that doesn’t mean you can’t cut it short or even go bald as we saw from Nappa. And clearly in the original dBz he didn’t have a widows peak as a child.
Nah if i remember correctly kami himself foreshadowed he was an alien or at least a being that kept on getting stronger with each fight before the start of Z. If i remember correctly it might have been during the final fight w/ piccolo but that did stand out to me back in the day.
Yes, it is a retcon, but people always assume retcon is something that pretends like a past event never happened. However, retcons can absolutely just introduce backstory that we didn't know, which then changes the context of the entire story. They did the same thing with potara earrings in Super and made Shin and Elder Kai look like unreliable actors.
I won't argue if it's good or bad, but this video makes good points and it's hard to argue this isn't the biggest retcon in the series.
That what I’m trying to tell people. A retcon is just new information that re-contextualizes the past. It isn’t a bad word that means the writing is bad.
Stop reinventing the 🛞. Retcon requires established facts, not introduction of it.
@@dreamcore7 go look up the definition of retcon. This has always been the definition and I don't get why it's so common for people to assume they are only there to cover up plotholes.
@@HashimotoDatsu noun
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
"we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu
The key phrase here is "on previously described events" which goku's origin is not, so not a retcon
@@wiiztec I think you're being a little too specific. While it's true that his origins were never specifically detailed, there was no reason to assume he was from another planet. The previously described events were just Goku's adventures up to that point. The origin itself is not the retcon, it's the character himself. Him being a Saiyan changes the interpretations of previous fights and makes it feel like his saiyan DNA may have contributed to his ability to learn martial arts and fight well. It also confirms that he was not related to Gohan and that he actually DOES have a biolgical family, even though that is short lived.
What exactly would you call it, if not a retcon? It completely changed the way people viewed Dragonball, so it certainly comes across as a massive retcon to me.
Goku was revealed to be an alien in Muscle Tower back when he fought Major Mettalitron. His sensors indicated that Goku was of possible alien descent. So Gero knew for years.
Edit - You said it. Nvm.
Eeehhhh, alien probably just meant intruder. Considering Goku was Sun Wukong inspired, I think him being an actual alien was thought of later.
A retcon is a change in already established plot, not addition to plot.
Lol he pulled off the retcon pretty well, I’d say. It feels like it made sense
I actually did start the series from the beginning and well, I don't actually have much issue with this. Prior to Z, whenever there was anything abnormal about Goku they would question what he actually is. Oolong actually semi-jokingly asks if he's some kind of alien really early on, and when King Piccolo wonders how a human can be so strong, Goku is like "Well I have a tail so maybe I'm not human."
planet yardrat huh, good speculation coming up
Now Goku wasn't even sent here to exterminate the planet. Bardock was just saving his life /shrugs
I think the biggest retcon is Minus...
Keep in mind that when characters distinguish groups of people, they don't use "human" to distinguish them. They use the planet they were from. Earthlings, Saiyans, Namekians. All are humans/mortals. Even Freeza.
Great video! I’d like to push back a bit if that’s okay.
In the same way that there is no indication in Part One of Dragonball that Gokū is an alien, there’s no indication that he’s truly an earthling either.
Constantly his friends and people he runs into call him things like strange creature, or peculiar boy.
Toriyama never told us what Gokū is, it was left incredibly vague. To reiterate Totally Not Mark, Toriyama does this often, he leaves pieces vague and expands upon it when it’s most useful to him.
Such as in the Buu Saga, there is no clear reason for Veggetto splitting back into Gokū and Vegeta respectively. But then in Super, the Kai’s explain there is a power threshold the fusion can reach before it splits. Not so much a retcon, as it is a new condition of Potaraa Fusion.
In conclusion, it’s not a retcon, as it was never said in stone what Gokū was.
If this is counted as a retcon then I can think of a bigger one and it's the entire premise of the next saga... Kame being from Namek and Dragon balls being on other worlds. I mean what happened to the demon connection what's with the different namekian children of king piccolo?! There's way too much ignored with still no explanations.
Bro showed up pressing and my guy goku took that personally on the Z
Call it a shake up to the series, change of pace, whatever, but I cannot get behind calling this a retcon. The idea of Goku being otherworldly was thrown around a lot on OG Dragonball. Oolong I specifically remember asks if he might be an alien, and during the fight with Major Metallion of the anime the scanner even said Goku is alien in looks and characteristics.
8:00 for the planet Raditz was referring to It would have to be either the planet that Nappa and Vegeta were on prior to them showing up on Earth or maybe the filler bug planet that they went to or maybe even Namek. IDK. maybe I'd like to think it was Namek but hey I could be wrong.
its would be namek they'd be searching for something to kill frieza with like the dragon balls
@@simbaking67 i guess that would make sense since they did know what a Namekian was when nappa and vegeta were talking to piccolo
Nope. Without fighting, Vegeta would not know that dragon balls are real deal. I guess, they would just continue to serve...Also Raditz mentioned that Earth is next... So it should some planet closer to Earth than Namek.
@@alexzero3736 I changed my stance on this being namek. In a follow up video he did he proposed it to be yardrat.
Raditz said he was the most powerful race. Not the strongest in the Universe. Frieza and the Ginyu force are considered mutants and anomalies among their own race. Just because Frieza is so powerful doesn't mean his entire race is that strong
But this, even though the tone of the story was greatly shift, is not a retcon since the origin of Goku were never stablish, was always a mystery. May be a retcon that Roshi new about Goku before the first saga but that is not that big
I wouldn't call this a retcon necessarily.
the sensu bean was STRAIGHT UP retconned though. it was just food that could fill you up for several days like Lambus Bread in Dragonball.. but then it healed battle damage.
they try to hand wave this away by saying Korin didn't know about that part.. but yeah.. it's just a convenient way to heal characters.
I knew what retcon you were talking about and I do agree it was one. I like though and what Toriyama did with it, but I do believe it. The closest thing we actually get to is was God and Piccolo speaking an alien language (we learn is Namekian) in the 23rd martial arts tournament
while there are plenty of retcons, I don't think this is one, because even in the manga some people would be questioning whether goku was an alien or not. off the top of my head I remember oolong saying something around the end of the pilaf castle part.
Keep it up Mike! Don't like dbz as much anymore. But these vid get me hype!
Lol why don’t you like it as much? Because of super 😂
Y don't u like dbz as much anymore?
I wouldn't really consider it a retcon because Goku's origins were never established up until that point. For it to a retcon it would have to be contradicting a previously established part of the lore like how Potara fusion works.
Goku being an alien is more a great plot twist than a retcon
I hurt my foot pretty bad and been off work for a week and got so bored not being able to move so I started to re read dragonball chapter 1 and I’m currently at the chapter where Goku heads to namek. They have these colored versions of the manga and they are really nice to read
the colored manga goes well into 3/4 of super as well! enjoy the ride
As far as what planet they were going to, i have a theory that it was Yardrat. The reason why is because that Yardratians are stronger than average and perhaps Vegeta had the idea that finding another Saiyan to join them for a moonlight rampage would increase their chances of success. My other point of reasoning is that when Goku escaped Namek after defeating Frieza, he used a space pod from the Ginyu Force and as Goku recounted, he just turned it on and made it launch, the pod was pre-programmed to go to Yardrat after the Ginyu Force left Namek. This COULD mean that Vegeta Squad and the Ginyu Force were scheduled to sack Planet Yardrat in a joint operation before Raditz died on Earth.
I know you’re nominally doing more informal videos since you’ve returned to your channel, but I continue to be impressed by the thought and effort that goes into your videos, particularly based on how often you upload.
*world building. There was never anything to explicitly said that it contradicts
Fun fact
In classic dragon ball one of the red ribbon army's androids scans goku it lists him as an alien
Raddatz saying Sayians are the strongest race could just be arrogance .
Awesome content
It's still not a retcon, they never at any point stated goku was human(the fact that he had a tail and turned into a giant ape kinda suggested he wasn't) also at no point did they mention anything about his parents just his grandpa, now granted I don't know (in fact I doubt) that toriyama decided from day one he was an alien but its still just a reveal or even a natural development of the story not a retcon
There were literal animal and monster people walking around in Dragon Ball. The goddamn King of Earth is a talking dog. A boy with a monkey tail was far from the weirdest thing. There was nothing suggesting that Goku was anything more than a human kid with a tail.
@@theking8347 and tbere was nothing suggesting he or any of the other weird things weren't aliens either. His back story was never explicitly stated or even hinted at for that matter therefore adding it later is not a retcon
@@truescot2000 Adding something later is the literal definition of a retcon. Retcon is short for "retroactive continuity". Anything was that was not planned from the start is a retcon.
@@theking8347 yes and no, a retcon by definition is that the new piece of information changes the original interpretation, I am arguing that there was no initial interpretation of his origin as there were no hints at it originally
@@theking8347 There doesn't have to be
Something that really bugs me is that humanity is the only race that figured out how to control ki and suppress their power. The saiyans couldn't do it, freezer couldn't. But a ki illiterate race like humanity where only 0.1% can actually use ki somehow excels at it.
@@joshuaguevara1309 so you are saying that humanity is the only race that meditates and actually learns how to fight effectively and any other races just maul others like brutes. It doesn't make any sense
The Namekians, Yardrats, are other species that can suppress ki as well. But it makes sense that their the ones that excel at it since their ki is nowhere near as large as other species. Because of that they are forced to specialize in it more as well with martial arts
I thought it was going to be Goku reading minds like he did with Krillin on Namek
That was retconned too. There's 5. Can't forget Tarble. This whole series just became retcon the manga after original ball and it turned into ballz
Goku being an alien is a retcon the same way that Darth Vader being Luke's father is. Everyone knows about it, and it seems to fit the story perfectly, even though the author conceived the idea much later.
Biggest retcon is vegeta hairline as a kid from super
How is that a retcon? Goku's origin was not explained before the Saiyan Saga.
Also Raditz has no knowledge of Bardock sending Goku off and ASSUMED it was because he was meant to conquer earth
More than a retcon, it's Toriyama taking advantage of a vague detail he never bothered to explain in the past. Not that he needed to explain what Goku was or where he came from before.
4:35 “I guess he forgot about frieza and some of the others” nah bro it’s another retcon in a retcon 💀
One way to look at it is this is the best retcon in anime history.
I don't know if I would call it a "joke text", but I guess that's kind of accurate. It's a reference to Alien (1979), the lines are nearly, if not entirely identical to that.
I just noticed you have the same Amp I do. lol
The part were bardock used a different set of dragonballs and wish that his sons
Would thrive.
That imo was the biggest retcon.
It's a drastic change in direction for the story to go, but I do side with it being an explanation for Goku's back story, not a retcon, since there was no actual explanation beforehand (symbolism visually of similarities to the Monkey King, but no actual in continuity back story for him). I am glad the change doesn't feel completely out of left field, given the past couple of arcs' progression into the bombastic, ki-based world-destroying energy and martial arts battles we come to know and love in DragonBball Z. I imagine that the audience reading this change for the first time were left with their jaws on the floor!
It's honestly unclear if it's a retcon. If they DIDN'T have all the weird people running around in DB, it would be even if nothing overt was said one way or the other.
The problem is Goku is constantly joked about not being human despite his only infraction being a tail and crazy strength. Yet people like Tien or Krillin are just assumed to be normal
Changing Goku from a baby when Gohan found him to being like 5 is a retcon I can't accept, it's so stupid 😂, like we saw him several times as a naked baby then in Broly they had him as like a 5 year old in saiyan armor 😆
You know a what if Goku, Radtiz, Vegeta and Nappa out in the galaxy would be awesome to see
My theory in regards to Radditz talking about a planet that they want to conquer and sell. He had his scouter on which we know are also a telecommunication device because Vegeta and Nappa were listening in but we later find out that also Frieza was too. And also we see at the end of the new Broly movie that Frieza tracked Cheelai to Broly's planet. So Freiza can listen and track his forces.
So perhaps Radditz was speaking in "code". In a way that would possibly recruit Goku but also sound normal to Frieza and in an attempt to throw him off as to why he went to Earth. Perhaps Vegeta, Nappa, and Radditz were planning to take out Frieza and they thought if only they had one more saiyan. But then the story plays out as seen. Also maybe why Nappa at first wanted to wish Radditz back but then Vegeta said they wouldn't have to. Itd be a wasted wish.
Why they wouldn't just try to wish Frieza dead is the same reason he didnt want the Z fighters to kill Android 17 and 18 while they were hibernating. Also the dragon might not have been able to grant that wish either due its limitations.
Ohhh that’s a very interesting theory! I don’t know if there’s enough evidence for it to actually be true, but I like the idea very much.
My favorite thing about Star Wars influencing Toriyama is how much George Lucas and Star Wars were influenced by Japanese films and culture in general.
Most obvious inspiration was the Superman movies.
Goku/Kakarot is Clark/Kal-El, Raditz/Nappa/Vegeta are Ursa/Non/Zod, the Vegeta planet is Krypton, etc...
Some may argue that everytime a character is wished back to life they're no longer the original ones because their destiny dictated that they die in that moment and wishing them back is in fact going against the universe's wishes.
The dragon balls create replicas of those who have died.
Think Pet Cemetery
I would consider something like bardocks personality change as retcon. I consider gokus origin as a deep secret being revealed
It should be noted that Buddhist mythology does contain aliens. The Lotus Sutra containing an unambiguous description of an extraterrestrial flying in his craft from another planet to visit the Buddha in person, after the Buddha had projected his consciousness to the planet in question. The aliens name being Gadgadasvara.
People tend to assume aliens are a modern science fiction concept, but Indian/Vedic mythology in particular is filled with descriptions of intelligent beings in flying ships, as well as supernatural technologies that could very well simply be futuristic developments rather than something necessarily magical (if there even is a difference at all). Some coming from other worlds, others coming from interdimensional realms that intersect/co-penetrate with Earth. Sun Wukong being King of the Vanara, intelligent monkey-esque forest dwelling Beings. It is entirely possible that the origin of these mythological creatures were perhaps from another world rather than Earth.
In other words, the whole Alien thing in Dragon Ball isn't necessarily out of nowhere. The gaps could be creatively filled in without introducing too many mythological contradictions.
Also, about the reference to Star Wars as one of his initial inspirations - it should be noted that Star Wars itself was inspired by stories in Indian/Vedic/Buddhist mythology - hence Jedi meditation practices. One may go as far to say that the concept of lightsabers is derived from old vedic stories of the weapons of gods - magical swords made of destructive light energy powered by crystals. That entire idea is basically derived straight from vedic mythology. Some of the oldest vedic texts contain descriptions about flying vehicles that can fire beams of light capable of destroying entire mountains in a single blast.
Interesting stuff for sure.
I'm probably the only person who has this opinion, but I actually preferred Goku being a human over him being an alien. I'm personally not the biggest fan of that retcon honestly
In the sane way you talk about the shift from dragon ball to dragon ball Z. Maybe its time to talk about the shift from DBZ to super, it just isn't trying to be what it was anymore.
A retcon is contrasting lore that came before which Goku being an alien doesn't do.Goku has been shown to be different in a world full of dinosaurs, monsters,3 eye people,etc.Changing the tone doesn't mean its a retcon
I like that he just went back again in dragon ball minus and retconed the retcon.
10:50 - Just like it wasn't a retcon when they changed the rules of the Potara fusion to write Vegito out of a battle Toriyama never intended for him to be present for in the first place, yet was crammed into by Toei for the sake of merchandising.
DB is full of hard and soft retcons. Super is a retcon unto itself that takes it upon itself to overwrite/recontextualize all the events after it, and some of those before it. Right down to the claim that it took place during a supposed time of peace.
Some of these 'retcons' are moreso for expanding the story, like Goku's varied origins - while others just undermine continuity, or at the very least, stretch believability for the sake of some some minor storyline or plot point. Like Goku, Vegeta, AND Bulma ALL having pseudo long lost siblings that show up at completely random points in the series for a like one small storyline, only to basic vanish from the story thereafter. Never becoming truly integrated or memorable beyond that one event. Rendering them the equivalent of some ingredient you practically never buy, but did so to make one small and very specific recipe, then are subsequently left without much of a use for, forcing you to either pack somewhere out of the way, or discard it outright.
it was a retcon to change the potarra fusion. in fact, super retconned itself to make that retcon.
the new rules of potarra state
“fusion is only permanent if one of the beings involved was a supreme mai”
so where’s the contradiction? in super, they introduce the time rings that zamasu steals however the u10 supreme kai states that
“only a supreme kai can use the ring”
so what does zamasu do? he kills the supreme kai and steals his earrings which allows him to use the ring.
so what does this tell us? it tells us that the earrings are the important thing. not the person wearing it. so by supers logic with the time ring, any being wearing supreme kai earrings is considered a supreme kai. so by this logic, all fusion should be permanent.
so yeah. super retcons itself to then retcon dbz. all potarra fusions should be permanent
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 And all for the sake of generating Vegito Blue merchandise... Sigh......
@FullTimeSlacker II that is not a retcon, I see you all over the comments. The definition of retcon
is a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency. In Z it directly showcased vegito defuse with goku making a assumption. In super they directly tell you the ramifications as to why the fusion didn't work in Z😐😐that is not a retcon
potara can technically seen as not a retcon considering 1. mortals have never done it and 2. the people who said they separated because of buu was goku and vegeta which make them unreliable narrators.
@@carmelosmith8782 the defusion in Z was “assumed” by goku to be due to getting sucked in by buu because, we the audience and characters, were told that in a vaccum potarra fusion was unlimited. toriyama at that time had no real explanation in mind so he had to invent one in super. hence, retcon.
At planet they were going to may have been planet yardrats
I learned something new wow!
Retconned him into being Superman. Alien sent to Earth from a dying planet (in some continuities Brainiac even destroys Krypton like Freeza destroyed Vegeta), Earth is later invaded by high ranking aristocrats who also survived and who he has to defeat despite being the last of his own kind. Sure, there are important differences, but the soft outline is pretty damn similar. Ironic considering how many DB fans absolutely despise Superman.