Why So Many Warriors Protagonists Fall Flat - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2022
- You can only talk about how pointless the main characters were in Omen of the Stars or how frustrated you are by the lack of character in Violetshine or Shadowsight (and a new protagonist's current trajectory) before you have to buckle down and just talk about the root of all of these problems: a complete refusal to let characters' choices direct the story or show us who they are. Without meaningful choices, there is no characterization, and there will be no connection between your audience and the plot. That said, even if some of these problems were fixed, I would also very much like it if clans stopped being rabid angry mobs saying whatever is necessary to oppose the current protagonists or make them feel sad. These are supposed to be communities with multiple independent beings, remember.
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I still have no idea how the Erins wrote two arcs worth of super powered characters and still gave them the narrative importance of random bystanders
Honestly, the tipping point for me was when Mothwing started to also bully Shadowsight. Like, what?? I understand she's a senior medicine cat and has generally been characterized to be confident in herself regardless of the situation, but it felt way out of left field and for Shadowclan's big "we love being Shadowclan", they sure as heck didn't seem to care that an outside medicine cat was free to just. Bully the heck out of their apprentice medicine cat who also happens to be the leader's son?? For how they characterized Tigerstar II, that should have been an immediate "shut up or gtfo" from him. That whole situation was so incredibly forced that I'm surprised someone didn't injure their back trying to bend the story backwards so it could happen.
Honestly, that part made me so mad that I wanted to beat the ever-loving hell out of Mothwing myself.
There seems to be quite a bit of abuse to medicine cats directly related to leaders of Clans...
@@laciereinheart9490Tbh Frostpaw is the only main series MedCat pov that isn’t a child or grandchild of their leader
This is a very necessary video that I’ve been unconsciously waiting for ever since I was introduced to Lionblaze, you’re a hero Sunny lmao
I mean Lionblaze didn’t really had to do anything since Hollyleaf is the proactive one. He should have became proactive after the three arc.
Yeah, one of the many things that really bugged me in TBC. The strange, overwhelming bullying of Shadowsight makes me unbelievably angry. Like, Shadowsight should have left Shadowclan! If that ungodly amount of harassment didn't stop, there's no point for him to stay in that toxic environment.
I was really rooting for him to say "F U" and pack up and leave, too.
I felt bad for Shadowsight, but it was hard for me to take the situation fully seriously because many characters became so out-of-characteristically mean to him to further his story, just like with Nightheart.
Yeah. The only character I could reasonably see being so harsh to him is Lionblaze. He's the only one who made sense imo. But not really the others. And they had the audacity to butcher Mothwing purely to make Shadowsight more tragic.
@@zrainyday5266 Yeah, Mothwing herself as a medicine cat was in a situation where she was tricked. And very big part of her character was that she can be a nice cat even if she doesn't believe in/completely support StarClan, and then they just made her really mean.
@@vilmublues752 Yeah it was pretty ridiculous to butcher her so far like that. She would be nice and mostly empathetic to Shadowsight if this were a well written series. The furthest she would go is being a bit curt. She wouldn't be downright cruel or mean
Great video as always. I like how you mentioned how the omen of the stars protagonists hardly influenced the overall plot. It annoyed me so much how the prophecy hyped up the three as these powerful cats StarClan could be afraid of and the dark forest would want to take advantage of. But then their powers were hardly ever used for the dark forest battle.
Anyways, not to be mean towards other people in the fandom, but I don’t agree whenever people reason that a certain character they like should get their own book just “to see their reaction to xyz”. For example, “I want a brackenfur book to see his reaction to sorreltail’s death”. Most of the time, the event happened without that specific character having any significant control on it, so that point of view would just feel like a camera. I’m not sure if this take makes any sense but it’s been in the back of my mind for a while because I really want a proactive protagonist that seriously influences the plot of the book they’re in other than “I’m sad because this bad thing happened to me”.
Yes that was super disappointing to not see them have more of an influence on the world around them, because I really liked the characters and wanted to see them use there powers in a dramatic way! Also I hate the way they wrote about holly leaf and then she doesn't get any part and seemingly nothing she does makes any difference to the plot!
I couldn't even finish properly re-reading Omen of the Stars last year or so. The plot felt so slow and dragged on. Power of Three and Omen of the Stars could have been just one arc - ditch Hollyleaf being powerless because it makes no sense, and make the Dark Forest cats want to attack ASAP. Maybe Ashfur's fire scene happened earlier in the arc and yada yads, he died, making him one of the Dark Forest cats and posing a personal threat to the Three, instead of just evil cats wanting revenge on the entire Clan. Use the powers more. Maybe make the fight happen a cloudy night, and Hollyleaf has Dovewing's power of hearing, so she warns her siblings of attacks. Lionblaze activates his power and protects his sister and brother in return. As for Hollyleaf's fake death, it could be more of a runaway and hide in the tunnels act than appearing to die. Maybe the brothers have to persuade her not to abandon them and the Clan after humiliating herself at the gathering, she can still prove herself and stuff.
THANK YOU! I just sit through a looong fanfiction of a character being bullied by their cartoonishly evil family, and I'm exhausted, this video sums up the problems I see in so many stories.
Thank you for saying this! I’ve been thinking things like this about warriors for so long, I hate when the authors replace well-thought out conflict in place of everyone being against the main character for no reason! It’s really frustrating when all background characters have zero personality and just act as plot devices to make the mains feel adversity and make us feel sorry for them.
Ngl watching this video I just remembered that Violetshine was a protagonist. I haven’t read past Omen of the Stars because I didn’t like how reactive the characters were to the point, as you said, you could’ve replaced them with anyone or a 3rd person perspective and the story wouldn’t change. Protagonists today just don’t do anything to stand apart anymore and will be mostly forgotten by the time we get to the hot spot of the next arc.
Great video Sunny! I wholeheartedly agree. I feel Nightheart is the worst offender of this then Shadowsight as I felt more Mothwing was the most broken character from tbc because of him. Like Lionblaze, I can see it due to his experience with Ashfur. Keep it up , can't wait for the next one :)
I feel like the only reason we think the oots protagonists are better at being engaging characters than the new ones is because we were 12 when first introduced to them. Lionblaze and Ivypool are way worse than Violetshine and Shadowsight in regards to having nothing to do and inconsistent character motivations.
I personally disagree with Violetshine being a bad character in general, at least for the first 3 books. She does make choices that impact the story and her reactions to the story she's in make sense. Shadowclan's bullying of Violetshine not making sense. In Thunder and Shadow Rowanstar straight up says that the only reason he campaigned to get Violetshine was because Needletail wanted her. He didn't want her and Shadowclan didn't want her. And judging by how Needletail ignored Violetshine, she didn't want her either. She just wanted her because she found her and felt entitled to her and she convinced Shadowclan to take her because Needletail found her on their behalf. You could have replaced her with a treasure chest and it would have made just as much sense. To Shadowclan, Violetshine was just a bounty. She is the most objectified person in the series. Its sick, but it makes sense. Her choice to join the kin also makes a twisted amount of sense. While Needletail was terrible, she showed more affection to Violetshine than anyone else in Shadowclan. Thus Violetshine felt an attachment to her. Its sad but Violetshine was attached to her abuser. But because Violetshine never cared about the kin, it was easier for her to defect. And her choice to pass on information to the other clans about the kin had more of an impact on the story than Ivypool ever had in her 3 books of being the worst spy.
A lot of people don't recognize this because in my experience, a lot of people want to see Needletail as a better person than she actually is. The fact we don't see what happens to her in the Apprentices Quest allows people to conveniently hand wave Shadowclan demanding Violetshine be given to them as all Rowanstar's doing. When in actuality, it was her doing.
Aside from that I actually do agree with this video.
Yes, I thought the same while reading that arc.I was thinking please violet shine stop chasing after this fake friend even though you are starving for attention! I wish she would have been closer to her sister twig branch and found a clan that actually appreciated her!
@@starshine9205 At least she got to form a bond with her father. Twigbranch is.... well... Twigbranch.
Yes, yes, yes! I agree with you. Violetshine is my second fav character, first is Jay boi ofc. She's been through so much and struggles to push her emotions down, follows her only friend, an abuser and was torn away by her only kin at such a young age. Even though that has all happened to her, she still stays strong through it all!
Nice break down, Sunny. I tend to find works like these frustrating to sit through, though it's also how I used to write stories before I learned how to make interesting characters. It kind of goes hand in hand... trauma-dumps are just an amateur's way to make an "interesting" and "sympathetic" character without actually making an interesting and sympathetic character.
Crookedstar and Tallstar IMO have the best novels of the series, though I haven’t read a warriors book in a long time. I’ve heard Hawkwing’s Journey is also very good!
Edit: I hope Nightheart and Frostpaw are a departure from this issue, as I’ve heard Sunbeam is written well (for Warriors standards)
YES FUCKING LOVE CROOKEDSTAR’S PEOMISE! It’s my favorite Super Edition and the best Warrior Cat book no cap
@@ThatOneWattpadWriterHell yes
Great video. I really dislike the illogical bullying some of our protags get. Thinking back to previous arcs, I definitely felt this way with Violetshine and Shadowsight. And the most recent arc with Nightheart. It feels ooc for some of out older characters to be so harsh and make irrational decisions with little to no justification. 😕
Wonderful advice for any book, but the warrior cat examples really help illustrate your points!
You give a good statement, I’m writing my own Fanfic saga and it’s mostly Character driven you give good points.
Good job 👍
Give us a novella on Bob
"dislikes line dancing" I love this
Thank you for this very cool and awaited and intertaining and interesting video!!
I understand how many people see Violetshine as a bland character, but in my eyes, I just see her as a kit, who grew up bullied and never felt like she belonged, who was friends with someone who just used her (Just to let you know, I love Needletail as a character but she DID use Violet for her own uses) and was really messed up after jumping from Clan to Clan and having her sister leave her so many times. Darktail also impacted her life so much, and if you read The Broken Code, Violetshine shudders when Darktail is talked about. I know that many people say that 'Tree and Violetshine was too rushed' but honestly, I don't think so. Violetshine had a horrible childhood and always wanted a family, as Twigbranch said in her chapter. Of course she wanted kits to raise, to have a better childhood than she had herself. And even after this, Violetshine stands strong and loyal to her Clan. And I know that people complain about most main character she-cats getting the default 'motherly and sweet' treatment after they have kits/after their arc ends, including Violetshine and some others. I agree when it come to Ivypool and a few others, but I think that Violetshine SHOULD get that treatment! After all that she's been through, she should have time to relax and enjoy herself!
SORRY FOR HOW LONG THIS IS!! I hope this changes at someone's mind on Violetshine! :)
I aspire to be an author of a book series similar to warriors when I am older. and Sunnyfall’s videos help me realize how to write good characters and story arks, and she makes me want to write! Love you Sunny! ❤
first series is the best series. characters are a lot more complex.
choice! it's the best part of being a real person!
The characters in Kingdom Hearts have and make choices right
Ivypool did the most for the battle of the dark forest cuz she warned the clans and they also had Dovewing do nearly nothing expect what Ivypool could have told them
Violetshine makes choices. She chose to go to skyclan. She chose to leave tree for her clan. She chose to take tree to the clans. She chose to stay in the kin with needletail, while her mentor left, and died that night. She makes choices that impact the story. If she didn't go to skyclan twigbranch wouldn't feel such a strong need to bring them back. If she didn't leave tree twigbranch wouldn't have a plan to bring back skyclan. If she hadn't taken tree to the clans then the yellow broken code protagonist wouldn't exist, the message from the lost shadowclan warriors would never be sent, and skyclan would have left earlier without anyone to mediate. If she didn't choose to stay with needletail then darktail wouldn't have been defeated. She also makes choices for her character. She chooses to leave tree, this tells us that she values her clan and community more than what could be. She goes with needletail, this shows she holds on to the few good connections she has and wouldn't let go easily even if it brings her or them into danger. She chooses to yell at twigbranch and hold a grudge for awhile after her sister leaves her to go back to thunderclan (which was a good choice but it felt like betrayal to violetshine after just getting to spend time with her sister like they used to), this shows us that she is lonely and sensitive and quick to anger and overreacts. When she chooses to go back to shadowclan instead of staying in the kin where she felt needed, not safe, but valued and needed, this shows us that she lets her thoughts spiral and over thinks things, holds loyalty to her heart, and is scarred by her foster mother, pinenose, who loved kin and her mate more than her and saw violetshine has something that was a burden, something she feared she would become to needletail.
It may be hard to she these I guess without thinking about it a lot, but it was as easy as your bob example. My list for violetshine's personally is brave, loyal, caring, overthinker, sensitive, quick to anger in stressful or vulnerable situations, a little clingy, holds on to things longer and tighter than most, kindhearted, and bitter and kind of scarred.
I can't speak for shadowpaw because I've only read a preview of tbc at the end of a super edition. And to defend him about your random bursts of conference, I get those. I do regret them after and wish to die in a whole, but as a very anxious person who can hardly talk to anyone...
I'm not trying to prove you wrong because I dislike you, but because I found I fault that I could help with. It's healthy to disagree and argue civilly with people you look up to or like.
I probably wouldn't have bothered to look into violetshine so much if she hadn't been neck deep in every conflict or problem and our eye in the kin, shadowclan, and skyclan. Btw what happened to believing that the two sisters were prophesied?
Also rowanstar fought for violetkit. Not shadowclan, they just followed their leader.
I agree with you! Violetshine IS a good character, and she DOES change things! Thank you for explaining this far better than I could.
New sunny spiel!
While the three didn't use their abilities much in the final battle much (that we saw) they did have a large impact during other parts of Omen of the Stars
Dovewing; Saved the clans from dying of thirst when the beavers were blocking the stream. Saved thunder Clan from likely losing many more cats or having more serious injuries when the tree fell into the Hollow. Can hear the Dark Forest cats planning.
Jayfeather; Saves Lionblaze and Breezepelt from suffocating in mud. Saves the kits and his siblings + the wind clan apprentices in the Tunnels thanks to his ability to see/talk to Fallen Leaves. Helps to create the tribe of rushing water in the distant past (which the 5 clans come from). Brings Star Clan back together (his ability might have been needed for this since Star Clan had divided itself.)
Lionblaze; Saves Heathertail from dogs. Helps the Tribe by batting the intruders. Fights off a Fox alone. Probably saved Firestar from losing more lives to Russetfur. Likely does more than the usual warrior in the battle against the dark forest.
Sure some more info and more clear use of their abilities against the Dark Forest would have been nice, but it's not like they did nothing.
we stan bob!!
I stopped reading the series after Omen of the Stars and I do agree that the series starting going downhill after Power of Three. In my perspective it just seems overly ridiculous that they keep bringing back old villains in the form of their spirits residing in whatever ghostly plane of existence instead of just letting those villains' original death stay important. Feels like the series died with Firestar. Watch they gonna bring back Sol for some dumb reason.
I ♥️ Bob
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@@xRaiofSunshine Bob
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Look out for cats in black. Just realised thy tend to be dull. And yeah violet shine has a lot of white but who cares
I just put your vid into my gacha playlist...