Parents and Mentors - Sunny's Spiel | Warriors Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2024
- Ah, Parents vs. Mentors, the age old debate about who should get more screentime, impact on their kits lives, or, in Warriors especially, who is being pushed aside when their relationships should be central focuses. Considering how close this topic is to my heart and how much, in narratives, I value character relationships, I knew this was one I would have to tackle eventually.
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This is one of those things that I think a lot of super editions do a lot better than the mainline books. I know Bluestar's prophecy is a bit of a sticking point in the fandom, but it's one of my favorite books from the series specifically because of the extent to which they do focus on both Bluestar's familial relationships and how the events surrounding her family cascaded into who Bluestar became. Plus, I really liked the connection she made with Sunstar as her mentor. I know it wasn't much, and that Bluestar's Prophecy definitely focused a Lot More on Thistleclaw and Oakheart than those relationships, but throughout the books we see at the very least, the implied influence of Stormtail on Bluestar in a lot of the decisions she made. That being said, I do feel as though this might still be limited to a lot of the older super editions -- Yellowfang's and Crookedstar's and Tallstar's super editions are the other super editions that I most strongly associate with that kind of relationship development moreso than newer super editions.
in my opinion, Bluestars and Crookedstars super editions are easily some of the best books in the whole franchise. They establish how warriors cultures realistically should be super well and aren't lazy with it. Yellowfang follows closely behind them, and Tallstars, while due to the travel nature of the part of it, didn't impact me as much, is still a really great read. But first two are good because you don't need any context for them. They don't exist just to make original arcs stronger, they develop their own.
The prequel nature of them also made them awesome to follow. Super editions we get today rarely add anything new to worldbuilding, but in those four books we got to follow HOW politics of the first arc came to be. Bluestars book is especially awesome in this aspect. You also get to know and love a lot of characters in it, even though you wont see most of them ever again. It isn't by coincidence Snowfur, Thistleclaw and Sunstar are still fan favorites because of interesting contributions to arcs of characters they had.
Yes! I just left a comment about this lol. Bluestar's Prophecy really is one of the best books in the series and it's in large part due to the relationships Bluefur has.
Agree 100%. Those old super editions have some of the best mentor, parental, and friend relationships in the whole series
I really like how Stonefur sacrficed himself for his apprentice and Featherpaw. Stonefur was a minor character, but he had a lot going through him in that I think he was heavily grieving over his adoptive mom Graypool only to find out Bluestar was his mom.
It really is stunning how the books highlights negative relationships with parents, and rarely a positive. Because the demographic is for kids, you would especially want kids to know what a positive one is!
And I would love so see more relationships with mentors that turn into friendships outside of apprenticeship! We lack chemistry and relationships with so many characters (Especially Thunderclan), and even beloved characters are thrown into the shadows in favor of the protagonist’s and authors connections
I think it actually might be more important to show kids negative relationships, as long as they are shown with the EXPLICIT context that they are bad. (looking at you Spottedleaf’s heart. Why would you not make it more clear grooming is BAD??)
If children see that “oh, this villain uses the people around them and is toxic,” they can learn to avoid similar negative relationships in their lives.
@@cami_cosmos I think we needed both.(slight spoilers for asc) It's really great that it's shown what a bad relationship can look like, and honestly berryheart feels weirdly realistic, and I like that Sunbeam is allowed to have mixed feelings and doubt herself, but still stick up for herself in the end, but I think it would be even better if she was allowed to grow closer with one or two particular cats who could be a sort of parent figure to her, to show what a good relationship could look like. Goes for any of the three protagonists really, Frostpaw could especially use one, I know they said she has nightheart now but like- it doesn't feel that strong to me.
I know we have her kind of getting closer with thunderclan cats like finchlight and sparkpelt but I don't think we see enough one on one or quieter moments to convince me they have any sort of family like bond atm.
This video makes me less embarrassed for forgetting that Ashfur was Lionblaze's mentor until I read Sunnypaw's fic.
The first arc was easily the best at portraying mentor relationships. We see how close Longtail and Swiftpaw were, and I always found it interesting with how Darkstripe was Tigerstars apprentice and he grew up to share his values and follow him into exile (though much later). There was also Bluestar and Fireheart which was another parental bond in the series, and the apprentices Fireheart had himself with Cinderpelt, Cloudtail and Brambleclaw were all compelling in their own way (I think because of the whole nephew relationship though we may have a blurred boundary when it comes to Firehearts and Cloudtails relationship)
i wish parents especially had more of a roll in the POV cat life, i mean, Firestar has a excuse, his parents weren't in the clans, or even named in the first arc, but all the other POV characters where. they should have more of a relationship with their parents
I honestly love strained relationships with apprentices and mentors, in my warrior cats roleplays the best stories were usually when my character got an apprentice and chose to be hostile, ignoring, or just a plain bad teacher, it makes for such good drama.
In my fan clan,I take inspiration from the first arc’s complex,often affectionate relationships. One of my character’s apprentices waited in camp for them all night,worrying,while they fought their arch enemy.
Bluestar and Sunstar….I love them sm. They have a great relationship based off my memory- or maybe that’s just the fandom version. Either way I love them.
thats actually why sunstar picked bluefur, (except thistleclaw was terrible but it was mostly their relationship)
forever mad that they gave tree a bigger role in rootsprings story than violetshine. i LOVED reading abt violets complex relationship with her foster mother pinenose, so i was interested to see what type of parent she would be and how she would try not to repeat pines emotionally neglectful behavior. but nope!! gotta focus on the tom who has weird powers instead. so odd that tree got way more significance than any of the avos protags in tbc
tree didn't even end up having an interesting arc, its the usual "oh the legacy" thing. ngl, there was so much potential, but instead i ended up feeling like he's only in the clan for free food and would walk out for milk and not return any minute.
@@kindateia LITERALLYYYY i always hated how he kept suggesting that they leave as if violetshines whole arc wasnt all about struggling to fit in and find a home/family like......sir u are asking a girl with abandonment issues to leave the one place shes ever felt truly happy. arent u her husband u should Know these things. but ofc instead of dwelling on it we have to deal w rootspring angsting over inheriting his dads ghost powers only for that to quickly be overshadowed by bristleroot + ashfur stuff after like 2-3 books. bc why not /s
@@vanillaownschocolate7327 i never knew i needed gossiping about warriors so much but YES EXACTLY and then in the broken code he literally seems to do exactly nothing at all?? no contributions to society, no attention to his family, dude is just there for... what reasons? idea of violetshine, girl who grew up so unloved wherever she went, who was abandoned by everyone she held dear intentionally, falling in love with a vagabond who has a completely different relationship with leaving things behind and also perceives system that brought her so much pain as an unbiased outsider is actually so good but then the execution slipped and fell down seven flights of stairs
@@kindateia YESSSS YES YOU GET IT!!!! it was cool of them to create a whole new role for tree but they havent had him do anything actually Meaningful w that role which is super disappointing. + i wish violetshine and trees relationship was expanded upon more so their different perspectives could actually be addressed but unfortunately that would require the erins to actually remember details abt their characters which they dont have the best track record for 😔😔😔😔 oh well a guy can dream
@@vanillaownschocolate7327 meeting a fellow violetshine appreciator in this comment section is a total delight, even if fleeting :D
I think one of the best mentor/apprentice relationships we got to see was Sunfall to Bluefur. He genuinely cared for her when her mother died, and kept a close eye on her after she became a warrior. He was like a father figure to her, considering Stormtail was too "important" a senior warrior to really pay much attention to her.
A shame we only got to know about their dynamic for one book.
i am endlessly torn between "well we at least got something..." and "jfc on a crusty roll, do better already! you've been at this far too long to suck this bad!"
what you said about bad parents being memorable also applies to bad mentors. It's repeatedly brought up what impression Thistleclaw left on Tigerclaw, for example. Or Featherwhisker's weird relationship with Goosefeather [not a bad mentor but still worth mentioning] its very weird and i don't understand it. It implies that all cats turn out good unless given a bad mentor which is just wrong. Good people are taught to be good, and are influenced, it doesn't just happen. Just like how bad people have to be taught to be that way or given some kind of poor influence.
WAKE UP THE QUEEN HAS POSTED‼️
YASSSSSS
The designs you have for all the cats are so cool and unique your style is so cute
I really hated how Ivypool, a cat with a lot of presence, was not only made to get together with a random, younger cat they pulled out of nowhere, but when she became a mother, we got a whole damn arc from her daughters perspective and she barely had ANY influence in it. Her sisters role as a mother, contrastingly, is very established, though mostly due to previous super editions and novellas, but her? She barely says anything to her own kid. Its not even deliberate thing of "she's a distant parent", no, somehow even a very popular and beloved past POV heroine became a background mother erins love to make their she-cats. Hope her super edition adresses a lot of that :/ She ended up getting neither developed relationship with her mate nor her kids.
Well it would appear you have a pretty good mix, someone like darktail was heavily influenced by his parents, tigerstar was heavily influenced by his mentor thistleclaw, and then you have those like ashfur, despite having a very loving family and incredible mentor, was influenced by his own personality. Then of course you have someone like Scourge for example, a character simply shaped by his overall surroundings.
This video reminds me of a currently running AU of mine. It's an AU where a second protagonist joins Firestar in the first arc. She has a rocky relationship with her mother Maple as she fed her constant lies about the clans after she becomes a member of Thunderclan. She never even knew her father, who abandoned her very early on but early enough to remember what he looked like and acted like:a terrible grouch. When she joined Thunderclan, she fought in Rusty's place against Longtail, and so Bluestar decided to make Sunpaw (the AU protagonist) Longtail's apprentice. At first, Longtail dislikes her for beating him when she was just a loner and siding with Firepaw, the ex-kittypet. But over the moons, the two start to see their similarities. Both fiercely loyal to Thunderclan, both led astray in parts of their life by a trusted cat, that same fighting spirit that resides strong in both, both perceived as oddities in their clans, and both just trying to get by for them and their clanmates. Soon, the two enter the main phase of their relationship:the healthy and supportive phase. Longtail begins to change his view of outsiders as Sunpaw gives her stories and perspectives on the situation she once found herself in. Longtail also began to respect and treat his apprentice better, becoming fond of her as the moons go on. Then, when Frostfur's kits are stolen, Longtail is frantic and panicking as he fears over the safety of his half nephews and half nieces. Sunpaw, determined to help her distressed mentor, joined Firepaw and Graypaw's expedition to Shadowclan. Of course, Longtail panics even more when his precious apprwntice goes missing, and joins the patrol to Shadowclan. When Longtail finds his apprentice planning to get back the kits, he is relieved and eager to help. The battle goes smoothly and the same outcome happens, with Shadowclan winning. Sunpaw receives the name of Sunclaw, and, as she looks into the crowd, she smiles as she sees Longtail, the cat who once hated her to seemingly no limit, now proud of her achievment as a warrior. They maintain this solid and strong bond as the arc goes on, with Longtail soon becoming the father figure for her in place of her biological father. Longtail is very supportive of her choices and decisions, especially being proud at how Sunclaw mentors Brightpaw the way Longtail did during the healthy part of their relationship. When Tigerclaw asks Longtail to join him, and Longtail responds with a firm no, Tigerclaw spits that it's all because of Sunclaw and without her outsider influence poisoning his brain, Longtail would have stayed loyal to Tigerclaw. Sunclaw spits back at him, saying to leave Longtail alone and get out, but instead calling Longtail 'my dad'. The two have a conversation over this, and Longtail gladly accepts his role as her father figure as he's become as fond of her as if she was truly his kit. When the dogs attack Brightpaw and Dwiftpaw later, both cats are devestated over the affects on their apprentices. As Longtail grieves over Swiftpaw's death, Sunclaw grives over the fact that her apprentice is on the brink of dying as well. When Brightpaw wakes up, Sunclaw immediately embraces her apprentice and the two share a quirt moment of happiness. This doesnt last long, though, as Bluestar gives her apprentice the name of Lostface. Sunclaw and Longtail are some of the first cats to speak up about this besides Cloudtail, with their lack of prejudice against the injured cat blatant. When Fireheart renames Lostface, Sunclaw requests for Firestar to give her the Bright prefix back as Lostface liked it because it was like her mentor's prefix. When she becomes Brightheart, she thanks Sunclaw still being there for her, and Sunclaw responds with that she learned from the best. When Tigerstar dies and Longtail and Sunclaw witness this, Sunclaw comforts him and says it's not his fault Tigerstar sabotaged himself. As the battle with Bloodclan draws near, Sunclaw promises shell survive for Longtail, and she does. After the first arc, Sunclaw maintains this relationship with Longtail, even as he goes blind. She convinces her that hes stiol needed and convinces him to join the clans on the journey to the lake. She leads him the whole way there, and when they sttke by the lake, Sunclaw is the one cat whos truly there for him, Throughout Power Of Three, they still mantain thsi strong relationship until...the incodnet. It plays out lolk noemal, excpet for the immensley devestation this bring Sunclaw. Of course, they reunite in the Dark Forest Battle, and work together to defeat the spirits and Mousefur brings the she-cat to Longtail to guide to Starclan.
Sorry for my rant, but the whole reason the video reminded me of these two.
I’m writing a warrior cats story and the mentor of the main character is actually a big driving force in most of their decisions. Mostly because they’re abusive, but it’s nice to have some confirmation that focusing on them is a good way to go.
Oh god, I'm doing the exact same thing with my own warrior fan-canon clan since the lack of relationships that weren't romantic were driving me nuts. There's so many interesting stories to be told with a narrative like that, having a bad abusive mentor, and or an inexperienced mentor that makes the main character and those around them doubt themselves. The Erins are really neglecting one of the fun premises about being apprentice despite making the majority of a pov character time as that.
i have one mentor who’s a maternal figure to her apprentice but is also using her for political ends, the dynamic presents a lot of possibilities
I'm in the process of writing my own novel inspired by Warriors, and so videos like this really do help me to try my best to avoid the places where Warriors went wrong so to speak. For instance, anything related to characters having genuine relationships and seeing those relationships actually mean something other than "we live together and therefore I know you"
As someone who went to a Charter School since the 4th grade, where the specific system made me have one main teacher that I would have personal meetings with the entire time until I graduated, I really grew a personal bond with my teacher, or in this case my Mentor, as really all she did was help me organize all the homework I got from my other classes and discuss them with me. Also this new system helped me gain immensely better grades.
The authors have sooo many unchecked biases and it shows. They value nature over nurture to an absurd level. They are obsessed with genes.
AHHH Sunnyfall posted!!!!!
It's been a while since I read TBC but I remember really liking Dewspring and Rootpaw together. I think it was because of Dewspring pushing Rootpaw not to be embarrassed of Tree, and eventually standing up for Rootpaw against Leafstar. But it's been a long time since I read the first books of that arc!
each time before i move irl, i meet all the teachers i can talk to, and say bye. warriors should do that.
U chill asf I think I like ur vids Sunny
Hi Sunny, i love all your videos, thankyou for being a great WC creator and have a brilliant day =D
I liked how you included non romantic relationships as important.A duo like Leafpool and Sorreltail is actually kind of important to the story line
They should write about macaques those monkeys live in troops with harsh caste systems your born high born and have it good or low born and have it generationally bad unless you defeat the alpha and now your family is high born no mentor your weaned before a year old and at four to five or pre teen if you are a male kicked out of the group to be loners really the hunters could have a field day with it
Tigerclaw is a good example. He used to be a regular kit, untill influenced by Thisleclaw
I’d just like to bring attention to Longtail.
WHO THE HECK IN THE CURSED UNIVERSE OF WARRIORS NAMES THEIR KIT
LONGKIT
(I made drawings of his stages)
Longkit-kit with long body
Longpaw-cat with very long paws
Longtail-cat with extremely long tail
I'm writting My own fantasy story and My Main characters lose their parents and find Masters take ti care Of then and that influence them a Lot in a positive or negative way, the Masters of the two protagonist can be considere more like parents than masters
I'm going to say it, being near the end of Power Of Three, I can see how true Sunnyfall's claim is.
Squirrelflight and her kits barely interact after becoming apprentices, even warriors, and anytime the book brings up Squirrelflight, they're all like "Oh it's Squirrelflight", and they barely even act as if Squirrelflight is their mother. It's like as if all four cats forgot that they had parents at all.
But I also must bring up that Brambleclaw, the father of Jayfeather, Hollyleaf, and Lionblaze, who are literally the main characters, never has that deep of an interaction.
For me, in warrior cats, most of the time (As of the first three book arcs) the parents are just the ones who raise the cats, and do nothing much at all.
I understand that in the real world, cat species don't have really deep relationships with other cats (I mean yes they do mate, but I think you guys know what I mean, right?), but if this series is full of interactions, why is there no relationship that is deep AND long lasting as far as mentors and parents with either children or apprentices?
Hey a......sunny, I need your help. Do u known what order Dawn Of The Clans go?
sparkpelt is not a bad mother :(
People who are here in the first 30 minute
👇
I got here 4h later
Here 6 h later
if it ain't drama the crew ain't got a clue how to write it (exaggerating, kinda, a bit...)
First