This sold me. A lot of the comments complain about failure of the round to expand. Well, it didn't "mushroom" but it did expand in a good way. The commonly stated advantage to a wad cutter or semi wad cutter is that it reliably makes a cookie-cutter hole of at least .357" while a jacketed hollow point probably won't expand well from a snubbie and will cause less damage than a wad cutter. I was leery of the hollow point semi wad cutter for fear that it wouldn't expand and might push tissue aside more than a wad cutter. But the bullet in this test expanded to become a "cookie cutter" .413" in diameter! And 19" penetration through denim suggests this thing could hurt a pretty large perp. Wad cutters shoot frighteningly straight and everyone says semi wad cutters shoot just as straight. I think my search for carry ammo for my 642 is over.
As a disabled Vet, and 73 yoa, I don't get around as well as I used to, and I do carry at home and when shopping. For all my carry needs, I load my Taurus 605 with Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 +P 158 grain soft lead SWC w/gas check and they give me around 1000 fps out of my 2" bbl. It's true that a Taurus 605 is a .357 Mag revolver, but for serious social purposes, this load is all I need. I also have to think about noise abatement while carrying around the house, therefore the .38 Special +P, rather than a .357 load.
I’m 9 yrs late in watching your video, but Thank you. I just decided this is the ammo I will carry in my Colt Cobra, 2 inch barrel, rated .38 Special + P
The Chicago Police Department issued a similar load for use in the Smith M36. It was a non +p, 158 grain, lead semiwadcutter hollowpoint round. I don't recall who made it, but r et reportedly it was a effective load.
@Big Daddy You might be interested in the 180-grain lead, gas checked bullet. RCBS has that mould and I've always had great luck with it in both 4", 6" and 8" barrels (Dan Wesson and S&W 686)as well as my Marlin 1894CS carbine. Under 2 MOA at 100 yards with the carbine! Sub-MOA at 50 yards.
Bulls lo bore loads a 180 grain at like 1400 FPS magnum obviously. It’s a handful.... it kicked harder than some 158 sjhp@ 1570 FPS I shot after.... I wouldn’t shoot it in anything smaller than a L frame.
I use Buffalo Bore’s +P version of this load from several S&W (Models 27 and 627) five inch barrel and Ruger (SP-101 and GP-100) revolvers. It provides good velocity - with modest recoil - and excellent penetration. In addition, the gas check ensures no/very little leading, which makes cleanup easy. I’d like to offer two comments: 1. This is essentially the renowned “FBI Load” (the standard pressure version really isn’t). Decades ago, Special Agents were issued a 3.5 inch barrel “.38 on a .44 Special frame” revolvers, which were more-or-less an N Frame for .38 Specials (although not as durable or strong as Smith’s .357 “Registered Magnums” that evolved into the M-27). This revolver and round was designed to provide plenty of velocity, to have a somewhat greater sight radius than snubbies, to be quickly drawn, and to be robust and heavy enough to tame recoil while being extremely durable. This combination worked VERY well, although projectile design during that era was comparatively primitive and capacity was limited (but, quite likely more than sufficient for virtually all defensive scenarios). 2. Modern JHPs, of course, offer much improved expansion, however, SHOT PLACEMENT remains supreme. Should one opt to use this round (in either the +P or the standard pressure version) it will do its job if the marksman does his.
Pretty good synopsis but the FBI load came out in the late 70s to use in the k frame smith and wesson 3 inch 64 and 65...matter of fact was used by SA E. Morales to end the Dixie Highway shoot out...ie the Miami Platt Matix shootout...carried the +p 158 lead round for years....performed great....
I firmly believe the 38 special (standard pressure) with 158gr bullet is plenty for self defense. Excellent knockdown power, good penetration and mild recoil. I love the 38 special. Nelson
@@ratagris21 Paul Harrell did a test with these same rounds in his “38 special standard pressure part 3” video. They performed amazingly on his meat target
@@jacobg7966 yrs true I saw that video and loved to like your grandpa does with polo shirt and plaid jacket and backward draw and one handed forward shooting stance.
Amazing! You actually got the published ballistics and in a snub nose revolver. That's rare. I read of so many accounts of substandard performance velocity- wise in firearms journals that it's refreshing to hear that for a change.
Thanks so much for this test. It's not what I expected based upon similar tests I helped conduct as a LEO (THP) in the 1980s using the original FBI load as provided by Winchester. Like your other subscribers I'm looking forward to seeing the same brand tested in +p and also 4 inch barrels. Just yesterday a fellow retired officer and I were talking about how popular the .38 special remains and in fact it's the first line of lethal defense for our families. Thanks again for your efforts.
Fascinating video with good science as always. Even back in 2011, the basic fundamentals are under control. I have not found a bad Buffalo Bore round in any caliber so far. I tend to carry critical defense.
@dphitch I agree with you! So many others are talking about over penetration, but considering the size of many perps and what can be hit inside the body, I like the penetration ability of this round.
I bought some for my pre-model snub M&P, based on this video. I would rather load an effective round into my gun that I know will be safe to shoot if I need to protect my children than rely on the unverifiable personal dogma that surrounds shooting +P ammo in old S&W's found in abundance on the internet. Until I can afford a +P or .357 snub (or find one, for that matter,) this less-than-ideal solution will do. Thank you sir, keep up the videos. Very informative.
I've actually shot a few through pork rib. If you get a solid impact on bone it does flatten the bullet out a bit more, but it keeps on trucking after it hits it. Even moving relatively slow, that big heavy bullet has a lot of momentum and does a surprising amount of damage. I could easily put my index finger through the hole it blew in that rib.
Ah.... just so refreshing to watch your videos. They are like Roman swords, short, sharp, and to the point. I'll probably never own a .38 much less carry one (9mm for me) but I love these videos!
AWESOME! Lead goes faster than copper- weight for weight. Those that cast their own know that a slightly lighter bullet with even softer lead will expand MUCH more than that one did. My Lyman devestators are 130g and cast of totally soft lead expand to .6"-.65" EVERY TIME (in wet media such as this.)--------- NONE THE LESS ----GREAT TEST AGAIN!
I really like the documentation of variables you are doing. It is good scientific methodology. If this keeps up in Ky, we have folks that are having to go to the emergency room from heat stroke this week from working outdoors. Roofers and pavers must be adapted somewhat. I would use the garage with cooler air too.
@@nickcampanale9033 Agreed. Also, IMHO, Taurus actually makes better carry snubbies. Most small SWs are only 5 shot, while Taurus offers 6 and 7 shot. I really like my 856UL.
I carry this same bullet in Federal's version in 44 special, so this test was of much interest to me. Clearly the lack of expansion led to over penetration in this example. Had you fired a second shot into the gel without denim, I predict 11-12 inches of penetration with a nice mushroom.
Great videos, I love ballistic testing, will be doing some myself in the future. I must say Hickok45 and your videos are my favorites, keeps me entertained for hours, keep up the good work !!!!!!
Buffalo Bore also uses custom burn rate powders to get the most out of each cartridge while staying within pressure specs. That's what they say anyway. They do load them hot.
Sir, one other point, Many older revolvers are more accurate with 158 loads because the rate of twist in the barrel was designed for that bullet weight. So, my 1966 D S Special no longer shoots low.
The Classic "FBI Load". This is close to it and it does have a LOT of street credit. Many a bad guy is on the dark side of the grass because of it. However, the original recipe for a 158gr LSWCHP like this is intended to be cast of dead soft/pure lead and driven at +P velocitys. It needs that velocity to get the cavity to bloom and when they do, it is impressive, a large lead mushroom forms. I would not hesitate to carry this load in a little pocket .38 and the 3" 686 Plus on my night stand has a cylinder full of the Remington +P 158gr LSWCHP. Gotta have that velocity! A lot of folks also used soft lead hollow base target wadcutters loaded backwards/ base forward for an ad-hoc hollow point. Also a nasty round but loaded to hot would blow them out and leave a cylinder of lead behind! A nice hard cast solid with a wide meplat or a full wadcutter will do some serious damage plowing through a bad guy.
This 'standard load' from the video is as powerful as original FBI loads. The question is whether the lead is the same. Supposedly it's soft lead. Buffalo Bore's +P version of this is more powerful than all of the other brand +P rounds, except Underwood, and far exceeds the original FBI load.
I like the Idea of a WC round for self defense. I believe that Marsian Banaskers that break into my house at night or fall all over me on a gas station are not made of Pudding, they will have bones. Hit a bone and it will open up regardless and it will be a different ballgame. But thanks for the test, for me very informative to know that Grandpas ammo still could play a roll in our time. All this fancy DWTREUIJPHSJ computer bullets do the same than Grandpas wadcutter. 19" is something to talk about. Thanks again for your work.
Thanks for the video. I shoot an old 5-inch S&W 38 special that I inherited from my grandfather. I prefer to use 158 grain flat-nose soft-lead standard pressure ammo. The Buffalo Bore in your video would work for me except I cannot find it locally.
Nice test results for this round. Impressive out of the little .38spl. If I had a .38 this would be high on the list or rounds I might use. I think a rib cage is going to effect the penetration on any bullet, so to me 12-18" of penetration in gel is a good thing. I really can't imagine this round going all the way through a human chest in any direction, once it hits the back side of the ribcage the energy loss by that time wouldn't allow total penetration.
Wouldn't matter if it did go out the back. It would leave a hell of a hole going out and cause more blood loss. A hollow point going all the way through you isn't going to stop you any less. It still did the same damage inside you either way.
I sent in an inquiry with Federal to obtain the ballistics on these rounds in the Federal Premium +P 158gr. SWC-HP NYCLAD nylon coating variety (P38G) which you can still obtain online today for $44.98/50 Rds.. I bought 150 rounds this week delivered to my door for $150 TOTAL. 890 FPS and 270 FPE at the muzzle. From a 4 inch barrel. Down range ballistics is very good too. Speed and Energy are well maintained. 870 FPS and 265 FPE at 25 yards. 860 FPS and 260 FPE at 50 yards. Mid-range Trajectory is 0.3 at 25 yards. and 1.4 at 50 yards. I have a S&W model 10-5 Snub nose, and a S&W model 15-4 with 4 inch barrel. Anxious to go to the range and test these out.
i really enjoyed this video. a simple design and ( i supppose) cheap ammo NON +p can do a perfect job for self defense. impressive penetration and not bad expansion. regards from Spain.
Will you please review the hornady critical defense .38 special +p I love your reviews, you're honestly the only guy who's test I trust, I go to you every time I buy ammo haha. Preferably from a 4 inch barrel but any would be really appreciated.
Great video. This has always been the debate of this round vs. the 135 grain Speer GD Short Barrel round (The old FBI Load vs. the NYPD Load). It seems that the GD was a better performer in this case.
The Outpost armory is a couple miles from my house, so I've been there several times. Nice place ,but they seem really high on their firearms to me. Good prices on their reloading products though. Great video! Very well done as always.
Remington SWCHP +P has very soft lead and perform excellent in a snub nose revolver. The Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P is the best performing in .38 special.
Excellent test! Please consider doing an identical test with the Buffalo Bore Short Barrel Low Flash .38 special (non +P) 150 gr Hard Cast Wad Cutter. Thanks!
If you take the lead wad cutter round and cut an X in the top and when it hits the target it splits up into 4 different pieces. Providing 4 different wound cavities. Ideal for stopping a threat using the .38 special round out of a snubbie.
Thank you for this video, some of us have or will have in the near future a non+P rated 38 special, For ourselves or for the wife. This is looking promising
I'd really like to see some more non+p 38 special tests for hollowpoints. I'm rocking a 1979 S&W 36, and picking the right carry ammo is especially tricky given the short barrel. Right now, I carry Winchester Train and Defend 130 gr.
Frankly with a snub nose I think one should concern themselves with adequate penetration and holding together after hitting bone, versus hoping for some sort of expansion. A heavy for caliber, Keith-style hard cast SWC is great choice for short barrels. Not a stylish round, but effective.
tartredarrow Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
@@tylerlondon5052 Is this true though. I investigated this question, and people testing basically said it's mythological. Most .38 special wasn't any more powerful. Also, FYI, the Buffalo Bore standard pressure of this video matches old FBI load data, AND, modern +P FBI load equivalent. The actual +P version of this exceeds all of it.
Buffalo Bore does not water down the +P ratings. They keep or load to the full potential of the .38 Special cartridge ( 22,000 psi max). Most all other factory ammo still use the 18,500 psi as max for +P cause of all the light weight revolvers.
158 grain BULLET. The packaging won't usually tell you how many grains of powder, just the weight of the bullet itself. Different powders have different burn rates and densities, so it's too variable a thing to print on a package. If you want to know how many grains of a particular powder are in a load, you pretty much have to get a reloading manual and look it up. A standard .38 special load will have 3-10 grains of powder, depending on what powder it is. Magnums use a lot more.
Most of my revolvers are old ones. I have a couple Colt Detective Special's 1965 and 1974, Smith and Wesson model 36 and model 49 1958 and 1977 and a Ruger Speeds Six 1981. All of those are .38 specials except for the Speed Six which is a .357. I've run at least 5k rounds of +p ammo through all of them with no issue. The DS's and the Model 49 have and still handle them beautifully. Now, my Colt Cobra, Colt Agent and Smith Model 38 Airweight, I do not run +p through them but I carry them with +p. Thinking is if you're going to shoot them at the range use the standard stuff but carry the +p when carrying. If you can come across a Detective Special by Colt or a Model 49 or Model 36 by Smith for a great price, don't hesitate to get it. They can handle the +p with no issue. You can fire off a 20-25 round box at the range to get a feel for them and then carry it with them. Just practice with standard stuff as it'll get expensive if you're practicing with +p all of the time. Just my $0.02
the original ds (first and second) they said was not +p rated but could take up to about 1000 rounds. The third and fourth Gen (shrouded barrel models) were recommended to be sent to colt for a check up and potentially a replacement frame. If you really fired that many +p your gun is ruined. Remember this it will fire while its still completely unsafe. Please send that in to c&s to get it fixed before some chap gets it and it finally blows up.
GhanTech Mobile Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
So, no other "Chap" is going to get them as I don't sell my revolvers off. Secondly, I don't shoot tons of +p through any pre '72 model Colts at the range steadily just for function and feel. I shoot regular stuff. But I do carry +p in them for SD carry. My guns are fine not ruined I'm a revolver guy and I've seen trash revolvers with stretched frames or cracks in the cone. Tend to actually see that in Smiths more than anything. Colts issues usually have to do more with the cylinder timing getting out of whack than anything else.
in fact 2 layers before the target is just a t-shirt + sweater, and the other 2 layers are in the back... before the exit. add a jacket that might have exterior and interior layer and you are in 4 layers before target and 4 layers after
I’ll never understand why people try to do their absolute darndest to clog the hollowpoint. Not once in my 20 years of law-enforcement experience have I found a man shot wearing four pairs of jeans over his chest. And the simple fact of the matter is over penetration is not really a thing when it comes to standard pistol calibers. We regularly find that with standard ball ammunition, the bolts, exit the suspect and fall to the ground within 5 to 30 feet having zero lethality. In the state of Indiana, there is not one recorded over penetration death ever. And you’ll find that to be the case in almost every state.
4 layers of denim is an established (but out of date for some people) IWBA heavy clothing test protocol. I am acquainted with LEO's having 30 years or greater experience and they are definitely familiar with it. One of those prefers the IWBA protocol vs. FBI heavy clothing because he feels the IWBA is more demanding. I've used both in testing and that does seem to be the case.
Nice review. This is a good round in my book. Personally, I'd like a little more bbl length w/this combo if it were me, but this round seems adequate either way.
The +P version pushes the same 158gr LSWCHP to over 1000fps from a 1⅞ barrel...just about the best you can do from a snub! You should definitely test that one.
thanks you for the good video. i want to get a simple handgun with not a lot of recoil for my wife. so to keep it simple i was thinking a revolver might be a good choice so she won't have to worry about fixing a jam. what is the smallest caliber do you recommend for home defense.
The "X' was fairly shallow, but I can't say exactly how deep. Just weaken the front of the bullet in that way and experiment. Try it, you'll like it. Just normal std load wadcutters. I've never used this w/semi-WC, so I don't know how it would do. It's a very deadly round at self-defense range when modified in the manner described. One of the best, IMO.
Pllllleeeeeeeeeeeaasseeee test the +P version! The additional velocity would probably cause the bullet to expand more thereby causing it to penetrate less which would probably mean that it'll come in right in the desired ~14-16" range! Come on, man! That revolver, like most people's .38 revolvers, is even rated for +P, let's do it!
rupert93r Guns don't die of old age. There are millions of .38s that were made before they were commonly rated for +P. However, they will not blow up with +P rounds, it will just beat them to death. I, like most that own these older guns, practice with standard pressure ammo and carry +P.
ardvarkkkkk1 I am aware of that and completely agree. Yes, I know about how SAAMI changed the pressure ratings for .38 back in the early '70s so that the max pressure for .38SPC was lowered such that the new +P max rating is about where the old standard pressure .38 rating was thus all the old revolvers that aren't technically rated for +P actually are for all intents and purposes.
rupert93r Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
Rupert93r, I have a S&W 442, purchased in 2013. Right after I got it, I ran about a dozen of these Buffalo Bore 158gr SWCHP loads in +P through it. They were reasonably accurate, but the leaded the hell out of the bore and chambers of that gun. Needless to say, I haven't shot anything but jacketed ammo in the gun since then. So much for hoping the gas check would prevent leading. :-( Golden Sabre 125 gr and Gold Dot in 125 and 135 gr (both +P) will likely do everything the BB +P SWCHP will do, but not crap up the bore and chambers in the process.
Correct, my colt official police 38 special manufactured 1957 was originally rated to easily handle the new +P loads as that is what we had in 1957 anyway.
@tnoutdoors9 First off I want to say your videos are great and very educational, I am currently carrying the winchester pdx1 hollow points in my 38 S&W Body Guard, I saw how the bullets did not open up in both of your tests from your snub nose and was wondering which bullets you would recommend for carry. Thanks again for great videos
Another great video!! I will be getting a box of these to try out in my wife's LCR. I think it might be a good carry choice for her, as the recoil seems much milder than most of the other premium defense loads out there. Buffalo Bore is hard to find around here... I wonder if the Outpost ships to East TN :)
@Radion561 I was just watching this video and thought the same thing. Buffalo Bore advertises this round as one that should expand to some extent...they estimate their penetration at about 14 inches, so it should have expanded a fair bit more, if not for the denim. Maybe giving them the dum-dum treatment would help it out.
I'm going to try it, especially because the casings are definitely good for reloading. I have the snubbies that are Smith & Wesson older 10-5 and 10-7 they are not +p. We'll see what happens. I have a 15 shot Ruger security 9 I really do not carry that. My daughter does.
What is to complain about? First higher velocity than any plus p lhp load. Next. Plugged with denim still expands to around 44 caliber. Penetrates adequately without too much . Last A gunfight proven load for 2 inch revolvers , especially the older lightweight Pre 72 Colts. While it is tough to duplicate the plus p load , you can handload to this performance using the same Rim Rock bullets, in an emergency and , using standard hard cast 158 for practice
Alot more lead to those semi wads than that I'm use to. Alot fuller than the ones I used back in the day. Do the test with a bone/rib substitute and maybe a standard semi wad without the hollow point.
It probably would have expanded more out of a linger barrel. It would be interesting to see whst it would do out of a 5.5 or a 7.5 inch barrel. Alot of the single action cowboy revolvers chambered strictly for 38 special are not +P rated but are not entirely made for defense in mind either at least in these times. However it would still be interesting to see a test of some if these standard pressure loads in longer barrels.
If you go to the Buffalo bore website and click on the ammo your interested in they usually have at least three real world velocities listed for different barrel lengths. that load is getting 1450fps out of a 2 1/2 inch barrel , 1700 fps has to be out of some kind of rifle.
I have no doubt this round will be effective in a self defense situation. I want a projectile capable of crushing bones too and this bullet with its weight can do the job no problem. Too bad my local gun shop don't sell them. :( Thanks for the test.
I understand how hollow points work but in my state I can't carry hollow points. I would love to see how fmj fair with over penitration and other issues in comparison to hollow point.
Quick Question Good Sir: How, if at all, would be the advantage Vs disadvantage of placing a 4.5mm steel BB in the soft lead cavity of the Buffalo Bore cartridge in the above video so far as penatration and expansion are concerned. Not as if it necessarily needs to expand any further than it currently does nor is deeper penatration necessarily desired but my inquiry is simply a "What If" that might be something interesting to see in Ballistic Gelatin, a test I haven't the location nor means to perform personally. Thank you for your time and hard work as it serves to be educational to many of us. Be well, be safe and be blessed in all things, Sincerely and Respectfully Yours, ... ~Benny Dr. Benjamin Bennett Th.D Corpus Christi, Texas
My protocol is to NEVER, EVER make alterations to ammo, for practice or defensive purposes. Why create a potential hazard for your firearm, not to mention affecting a projectile that is designed by ballistic engineers with an intended purpose relative to common physical conditions and scenarios? It's not worth it.
In the aftermath of the shooting, they will be a civil suit from the bad guys family. Their attorney will have a field day with you claiming you fired super evil homemade ammunition.
Years ago, I used to put x-cuts in the tip of my carry 158gr. LSWHP +P. Got pretty good results. I know this is standard pressure, but I believe the lead might be softer. Would that help?
Still a timeless video after 13 years. Thanks!
This sold me. A lot of the comments complain about failure of the round to expand. Well, it didn't "mushroom" but it did expand in a good way. The commonly stated advantage to a wad cutter or semi wad cutter is that it reliably makes a cookie-cutter hole of at least .357" while a jacketed hollow point probably won't expand well from a snubbie and will cause less damage than a wad cutter. I was leery of the hollow point semi wad cutter for fear that it wouldn't expand and might push tissue aside more than a wad cutter. But the bullet in this test expanded to become a "cookie cutter" .413" in diameter! And 19" penetration through denim suggests this thing could hurt a pretty large perp. Wad cutters shoot frighteningly straight and everyone says semi wad cutters shoot just as straight. I think my search for carry ammo for my 642 is over.
As a disabled Vet, and 73 yoa, I don't get around as well as I used to, and I do carry at home and when shopping. For all my carry needs, I load my Taurus 605 with Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 +P 158 grain soft lead SWC w/gas check and they give me around 1000 fps out of my 2" bbl. It's true that a Taurus 605 is a .357 Mag revolver, but for serious social purposes, this load is all I need. I also have to think about noise abatement while carrying around the house, therefore the .38 Special +P, rather than a .357 load.
I’m 9 yrs late in watching your video, but Thank you. I just decided this is the ammo I will carry in my Colt Cobra, 2 inch barrel, rated .38 Special + P
The Chicago Police Department issued a similar load for use in the Smith M36. It was a non +p, 158 grain, lead semiwadcutter hollowpoint round. I don't recall who made it, but r et reportedly it was a effective load.
If anyone wondered, I got 1,002 FPS with the +P variant in my 1.875" J-Frame.
@Big Daddy You might be interested in the 180-grain lead, gas checked bullet. RCBS has that mould and I've always had great luck with it in both 4", 6" and 8" barrels (Dan Wesson and S&W 686)as well as my Marlin 1894CS carbine. Under 2 MOA at 100 yards with the carbine! Sub-MOA at 50 yards.
Bulls lo bore loads a 180 grain at like 1400 FPS magnum obviously. It’s a handful.... it kicked harder than some 158 sjhp@ 1570 FPS I shot after.... I wouldn’t shoot it in anything smaller than a L frame.
That is my normal carry load. NOT pleasant for plinking.
I got 1006 fps with my 1 7/8" J Frame. No joke!
That is fast. I like fast.
I use Buffalo Bore’s +P version of this load from several S&W (Models 27 and 627) five inch barrel and Ruger (SP-101 and GP-100) revolvers. It provides good velocity - with modest recoil - and excellent penetration. In addition, the gas check ensures no/very little leading, which makes cleanup easy. I’d like to offer two comments:
1. This is essentially the renowned “FBI Load” (the standard pressure version really isn’t). Decades ago, Special Agents were issued a 3.5 inch barrel “.38 on a .44 Special frame” revolvers, which were more-or-less an N Frame for .38 Specials (although not as durable or strong as Smith’s .357 “Registered Magnums” that evolved into the M-27). This revolver and round was designed to provide plenty of velocity, to have a somewhat greater sight radius than snubbies, to be quickly drawn, and to be robust and heavy enough to tame recoil while being extremely durable. This combination worked VERY well, although projectile design during that era was comparatively primitive and capacity was limited (but, quite likely more than sufficient for virtually all defensive scenarios).
2. Modern JHPs, of course, offer much improved expansion, however, SHOT PLACEMENT remains supreme. Should one opt to use this round (in either the +P or the standard pressure version) it will do its job if the marksman does his.
Pretty good synopsis but the FBI load came out in the late 70s to use in the k frame smith and wesson 3 inch 64 and 65...matter of fact was used by SA E. Morales to end the Dixie Highway shoot out...ie the Miami Platt Matix shootout...carried the +p 158 lead round for years....performed great....
I firmly believe the 38 special (standard pressure) with 158gr bullet is plenty for self defense. Excellent knockdown power, good penetration and mild recoil. I love the 38 special.
Nelson
ruizhernandeztrust I wouldn’t want to get shot with one
Old school loads like this still viable round and +P is not even needed.
@@ratagris21 Paul Harrell did a test with these same rounds in his “38 special standard pressure part 3” video. They performed amazingly on his meat target
@@jacobg7966 yrs true I saw that video and loved to like your grandpa does with polo shirt and plaid jacket and backward draw and one handed forward shooting stance.
@Not4nought light recoil would be another perk for it 👍🏻
Amazing! You actually got the published ballistics and in a snub nose revolver. That's rare. I read of so many accounts of substandard performance velocity- wise in firearms journals that it's refreshing to hear that for a change.
Thanks so much for this test. It's not what I expected based upon similar tests I helped conduct as a LEO (THP) in the 1980s using the original FBI load as provided by Winchester. Like your other subscribers I'm looking forward to seeing the same brand tested in +p and also 4 inch barrels. Just yesterday a fellow retired officer and I were talking about how popular the .38 special remains and in fact it's the first line of lethal defense for our families. Thanks again for your efforts.
Fascinating video with good science as always. Even back in 2011, the basic fundamentals are under control. I have not found a bad Buffalo Bore round in any caliber so far. I tend to carry critical defense.
@dphitch I agree with you! So many others are talking about over penetration, but considering the size of many perps and what can be hit inside the body, I like the penetration ability of this round.
I carry this stuff in my 442 every day. Love it.
I bought some for my pre-model snub M&P, based on this video.
I would rather load an effective round into my gun that I know will be safe to shoot if I need to protect my children than rely on the unverifiable personal dogma that surrounds shooting +P ammo in old S&W's found in abundance on the internet.
Until I can afford a +P or .357 snub (or find one, for that matter,) this less-than-ideal solution will do.
Thank you sir, keep up the videos. Very informative.
Miss your reviews guy!! They were always the best!!
I've actually shot a few through pork rib. If you get a solid impact on bone it does flatten the bullet out a bit more, but it keeps on trucking after it hits it. Even moving relatively slow, that big heavy bullet has a lot of momentum and does a surprising amount of damage. I could easily put my index finger through the hole it blew in that rib.
Ah.... just so refreshing to watch your videos. They are like Roman swords, short, sharp, and to the point. I'll probably never own a .38 much less carry one (9mm for me) but I love these videos!
I love the fact it has a gas check. I have vivid memories of trying to get lead out of the barrel in the old days.
AWESOME! Lead goes faster than copper- weight for weight.
Those that cast their own know that a slightly lighter bullet with even softer lead will expand MUCH more than that one did. My Lyman devestators are 130g and cast of totally soft lead expand to .6"-.65" EVERY TIME (in wet media such as this.)--------- NONE THE LESS ----GREAT TEST AGAIN!
I'm glad I bought this ammo. Thank you for the testing.
I really like the documentation of variables you are doing. It is good scientific methodology. If this keeps up in Ky, we have folks that are having to go to the emergency room from heat stroke this week from working outdoors. Roofers and pavers must be adapted somewhat. I would use the garage with cooler air too.
Ok, I’m definitely ordering some of these for my Model 15-2.
You made an absolutely fantastic, scientific video. Thank you.
This is my carry round in my Taurus
Me too!
Buy a smith and wesson gay
@@michaeloladepo I have many guns, including S&W , WTF does Gay have to do with it. Try and be an adult, I'm sure it's hard, but try.
@@nickcampanale9033 Agreed. Also, IMHO, Taurus actually makes better carry snubbies. Most small SWs are only 5 shot, while Taurus offers 6 and 7 shot. I really like my 856UL.
@@robertroosa285 smith will last
I carry this same bullet in Federal's version in 44 special, so this test was of much interest to me. Clearly the lack of expansion led to over penetration in this example. Had you fired a second shot into the gel without denim, I predict 11-12 inches of penetration with a nice mushroom.
Great videos, I love ballistic testing, will be doing some myself in the future. I must say Hickok45 and your videos are my favorites, keeps me entertained for hours, keep up the good work !!!!!!
Than you for these tests. I have seen this load advertised for years and passed it by as I have other choices too.
The "deal" is that soft lead moves faster down the bore with the same amount of powder as a jacketed load. Less friction.
Gun Sam
Yes sir...winner winner chicken dinner. Finally a man who understands the facts.
Buffalo Bore also uses custom burn rate powders to get the most out of each cartridge while staying within pressure specs. That's what they say anyway. They do load them hot.
Wow another reloader/ caster
I just came here to say this but Sam beat me to it. Love your channel btw. Follow revolver aficionado if you enjoy wheel guns
But doesn't soft lead foul the barrel faster than a jacketed round??
I have a colt .38 special & it will kill easy!! Law enforcement carried for years!! 🗽🦅
Thank you for your awsome ammo reviews, and this one is no exception. Keep up the good work.
Another great vid. BB is interesting brand. Getting advertised velocity from a snubbie is a big surprise.
Sir, one other point, Many older revolvers are more accurate with 158 loads because the rate of twist in the barrel was designed for that bullet weight. So, my 1966 D S Special no longer shoots low.
The Classic "FBI Load". This is close to it and it does have a LOT of street credit. Many a bad guy is on the dark side of the grass because of it. However, the original recipe for a 158gr LSWCHP like this is intended to be cast of dead soft/pure lead and driven at +P velocitys. It needs that velocity to get the cavity to bloom and when they do, it is impressive, a large lead mushroom forms. I would not hesitate to carry this load in a little pocket .38 and the 3" 686 Plus on my night stand has a cylinder full of the Remington +P 158gr LSWCHP. Gotta have that velocity!
A lot of folks also used soft lead hollow base target wadcutters loaded backwards/ base forward for an ad-hoc hollow point. Also a nasty round but loaded to hot would blow them out and leave a cylinder of lead behind!
A nice hard cast solid with a wide meplat or a full wadcutter will do some serious damage plowing through a bad guy.
I love the FBI load
Problem solved
Copper gas check behind soft lead wad cutter LOAD HER HOT!
BUFFALO BORE does make a +P version of this round. It is has close has I have found to the old FBI/Treasury .38SPL Round.
This 'standard load' from the video is as powerful as original FBI loads. The question is whether the lead is the same. Supposedly it's soft lead. Buffalo Bore's +P version of this is more powerful than all of the other brand +P rounds, except Underwood, and far exceeds the original FBI load.
Another great video with useful information. Keep up the good work!
I have been waiting for this review. Thank you!
Looks like an excellent round. Hunting and selfdefence.
I like the Idea of a WC round for self defense. I believe that Marsian Banaskers that break into my house at night or fall all over me on a gas station are not made of Pudding, they will have bones. Hit a bone and it will open up regardless and it will be a different ballgame.
But thanks for the test, for me very informative to know that Grandpas ammo still could play a roll in our time. All this fancy DWTREUIJPHSJ computer bullets do the same than Grandpas wadcutter. 19" is something to talk about.
Thanks again for your work.
I got the +p swc-hp loaded in my 38 special. Nice stuff!
Thanks for the video.
I shoot an old 5-inch S&W 38 special that I inherited from my grandfather.
I prefer to use 158 grain flat-nose soft-lead standard pressure ammo.
The Buffalo Bore in your video would work for me except I cannot find it locally.
Nice test results for this round. Impressive out of the little .38spl. If I had a .38 this would be high on the list or rounds I might use. I think a rib cage is going to effect the penetration on any bullet, so to me 12-18" of penetration in gel is a good thing. I really can't imagine this round going all the way through a human chest in any direction, once it hits the back side of the ribcage the energy loss by that time wouldn't allow total penetration.
Wouldn't matter if it did go out the back. It would leave a hell of a hole going out and cause more blood loss. A hollow point going all the way through you isn't going to stop you any less. It still did the same damage inside you either way.
I sent in an inquiry with Federal to obtain the ballistics on these rounds in the Federal Premium +P 158gr. SWC-HP NYCLAD nylon coating variety (P38G) which you can still obtain online today for $44.98/50 Rds.. I bought 150 rounds this week delivered to my door for $150 TOTAL. 890 FPS and 270 FPE at the muzzle. From a 4 inch barrel. Down range ballistics is very good too. Speed and Energy are well maintained. 870 FPS and 265 FPE at 25 yards. 860 FPS and 260 FPE at 50 yards. Mid-range Trajectory is 0.3 at 25 yards. and 1.4 at 50 yards. I have a S&W model 10-5 Snub nose, and a S&W model 15-4 with 4 inch barrel. Anxious to go to the range and test these out.
Looks like a really nice round. It reminds me of the Nyclads I used to carry. I prefer to err on the side of "too much" penetration.
i really enjoyed this video. a simple design and ( i supppose) cheap ammo NON +p can do a perfect job for self defense. impressive penetration and not bad expansion. regards from Spain.
Not cheap. Buffalo Bore is premium ammunition.
@@grandinquisitor1522But when you care enough to send the very best.
Will you please review the hornady critical defense .38 special +p I love your reviews, you're honestly the only guy who's test I trust, I go to you every time I buy ammo haha. Preferably from a 4 inch barrel but any would be really appreciated.
excellent video. Looking forward to watching more
Impressive results...thanks again!
That is a wicked looking slug!
Great video. This has always been the debate of this round vs. the 135 grain Speer GD Short Barrel round (The old FBI Load vs. the NYPD Load). It seems that the GD was a better performer in this case.
The +P version of this load expanded when I tested it in gelatin: .38 spl gel test: Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP +P
Cool test, hot weather!
Proof newer design isn't always better.
The Outpost armory is a couple miles from my house, so I've been there several times. Nice place ,but they seem really high on their firearms to me. Good prices on their reloading products though. Great video! Very well done as always.
Remington SWCHP +P has very soft lead and perform excellent in a snub nose revolver. The Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P is the best performing in .38 special.
Incredible penetration on that 38 Special.
Sure am looking forward to seeing how the BB .380 does.
Not really. It didn't expand. Most .38 special or 9mm FMJ will penetrate to 18 inches if not farther (20 inches +).
Excellent test! Please consider doing an identical test with the Buffalo Bore Short Barrel Low Flash .38 special (non +P) 150 gr Hard Cast Wad Cutter. Thanks!
Great job - looks like an impressive round. I would trade some expansion for reliable penetration (12 inches or greater) any day.
If you take the lead wad cutter round and cut an X in the top and when it hits the target it splits up into 4 different pieces. Providing 4 different wound cavities. Ideal for stopping a threat using the .38 special round out of a snubbie.
Thank you for this video, some of us have or will have in the near future a non+P rated 38 special, For ourselves or for the wife. This is looking promising
I'd really like to see some more non+p 38 special tests for hollowpoints. I'm rocking a 1979 S&W 36, and picking the right carry ammo is especially tricky given the short barrel. Right now, I carry Winchester Train and Defend 130 gr.
Frankly with a snub nose I think one should concern themselves with adequate penetration and holding together after hitting bone, versus hoping for some sort of expansion. A heavy for caliber, Keith-style hard cast SWC is great choice for short barrels. Not a stylish round, but effective.
tartredarrow Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
@@tylerlondon5052 Is this true though. I investigated this question, and people testing basically said it's mythological. Most .38 special wasn't any more powerful. Also, FYI, the Buffalo Bore standard pressure of this video matches old FBI load data, AND, modern +P FBI load equivalent. The actual +P version of this exceeds all of it.
Gonna try some of these in my wife's Rossi Model 68 (S&W Model 36 knockoff). Thanks for the vid and the info!
So, bottom line, recommend for self defense or no??
these are semi-wadcuter-hollow cavity, or semiwadcutter hollow points.
thank you for the test, TN.
Buffalo Bore does not water down the +P ratings. They keep or load to the full potential of the .38 Special cartridge ( 22,000 psi max). Most all other factory ammo still use the 18,500 psi as max for +P cause of all the light weight revolvers.
Do you think it's a bad idea to use?
+nick podgorski Not in a all steel revolver and not regularly in a alloy frame. Life or death not practice use only.
I bought some to carry in my Taurus 85. All steel but it's a Taurus... Kind of nervous about shooting it lol. I just want to fire 5 or 10 then carry.
Taurus is a strong forged steel. no worries
+Wireman134 thanks for your input. Appreciate it.
158 grain BULLET. The packaging won't usually tell you how many grains of powder, just the weight of the bullet itself. Different powders have different burn rates and densities, so it's too variable a thing to print on a package.
If you want to know how many grains of a particular powder are in a load, you pretty much have to get a reloading manual and look it up. A standard .38 special load will have 3-10 grains of powder, depending on what powder it is. Magnums use a lot more.
Most of my revolvers are old ones. I have a couple Colt Detective Special's 1965 and 1974, Smith and Wesson model 36 and model 49 1958 and 1977 and a Ruger Speeds Six 1981. All of those are .38 specials except for the Speed Six which is a .357. I've run at least 5k rounds of +p ammo through all of them with no issue. The DS's and the Model 49 have and still handle them beautifully. Now, my Colt Cobra, Colt Agent and Smith Model 38 Airweight, I do not run +p through them but I carry them with +p. Thinking is if you're going to shoot them at the range use the standard stuff but carry the +p when carrying. If you can come across a Detective Special by Colt or a Model 49 or Model 36 by Smith for a great price, don't hesitate to get it. They can handle the +p with no issue. You can fire off a 20-25 round box at the range to get a feel for them and then carry it with them. Just practice with standard stuff as it'll get expensive if you're practicing with +p all of the time.
Just my $0.02
the original ds (first and second) they said was not +p rated but could take up to about 1000 rounds. The third and fourth Gen (shrouded barrel models) were recommended to be sent to colt for a check up and potentially a replacement frame. If you really fired that many +p your gun is ruined. Remember this it will fire while its still completely unsafe. Please send that in to c&s to get it fixed before some chap gets it and it finally blows up.
GhanTech Mobile Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
So, no other "Chap" is going to get them as I don't sell my revolvers off. Secondly, I don't shoot tons of +p through any pre '72 model Colts at the range steadily just for function and feel. I shoot regular stuff. But I do carry +p in them for SD carry. My guns are fine not ruined I'm a revolver guy and I've seen trash revolvers with stretched frames or cracks in the cone. Tend to actually see that in Smiths more than anything. Colts issues usually have to do more with the cylinder timing getting out of whack than anything else.
Recently shot the Outdoorsman .38+p flat nose out my 442 airweight. It was a real BRUISER!😅😸
Good review... Who wears 4 layers of denim since the 1980s?
in fact 2 layers before the target is just a t-shirt + sweater, and the other 2 layers are in the back... before the exit. add a jacket that might have exterior and interior layer and you are in 4 layers before target and 4 layers after
I’ll never understand why people try to do their absolute darndest to clog the hollowpoint. Not once in my 20 years of law-enforcement experience have I found a man shot wearing four pairs of jeans over his chest.
And the simple fact of the matter is over penetration is not really a thing when it comes to standard pistol calibers. We regularly find that with standard ball ammunition, the bolts, exit the suspect and fall to the ground within 5 to 30 feet having zero lethality.
In the state of Indiana, there is not one recorded over penetration death ever. And you’ll find that to be the case in almost every state.
4 layers of denim is an established (but out of date for some people) IWBA heavy clothing test protocol. I am acquainted with LEO's having 30 years or greater experience and they are definitely familiar with it. One of those prefers the IWBA protocol vs. FBI heavy clothing because he feels the IWBA is more demanding. I've used both in testing and that does seem to be the case.
I had to use this round on a suspect in the early ‘80s and it works.
They're still viable rounds.
Nice review. This is a good round in my book. Personally, I'd like a little more bbl length w/this combo if it were me, but this round seems adequate either way.
The +P version pushes the same 158gr LSWCHP to over 1000fps from a 1⅞ barrel...just about the best you can do from a snub! You should definitely test that one.
Only thing though. Buffalo Bore +P out of an airweight is brutal. I know, I have some. It makes normal +P rounds feel like standard pressure.
revolver shooting lead wadcutters, should have been wearing a cowboy hat for this one : )
Great video as always
thanks you for the good video. i want to get a simple handgun with not a lot of recoil for my wife. so to keep it simple i was thinking a revolver might be a good choice so she won't have to worry about fixing a jam. what is the smallest caliber do you recommend for home defense.
This standard pressure load outperforms all major factory plus p lhp loads. The plus p out of my Colt D frame clocked 1035 .
The "X' was fairly shallow, but I can't say exactly how deep. Just weaken the front of the bullet in that way and experiment. Try it, you'll like it. Just normal std load wadcutters. I've never used this w/semi-WC, so I don't know how it would do.
It's a very deadly round at self-defense range when modified in the manner described. One of the best, IMO.
Pllllleeeeeeeeeeeaasseeee test the +P version! The additional velocity would probably cause the bullet to expand more thereby causing it to penetrate less which would probably mean that it'll come in right in the desired ~14-16" range! Come on, man!
That revolver, like most people's .38 revolvers, is even rated for +P, let's do it!
rupert93r Guns don't die of old age. There are millions of .38s that were made before they were commonly rated for +P. However, they will not blow up with +P rounds, it will just beat them to death. I, like most that own these older guns, practice with standard pressure ammo and carry +P.
ardvarkkkkk1
I am aware of that and completely agree. Yes, I know about how SAAMI changed the pressure ratings for .38 back in the early '70s so that the max pressure for .38SPC was lowered such that the new +P max rating is about where the old standard pressure .38 rating was thus all the old revolvers that aren't technically rated for +P actually are for all intents and purposes.
rupert93r Using +p ammo in a non+p gun is fine unless the gun is shit. Ammo made prior to the 1970s is on par with the +p of today. The SAAMI standard changed in the 70s.
Rupert93r, I have a S&W 442, purchased in 2013. Right after I got it, I ran about a dozen of these Buffalo Bore 158gr SWCHP loads in +P through it. They were reasonably accurate, but the leaded the hell out of the bore and chambers of that gun. Needless to say, I haven't shot anything but jacketed ammo in the gun since then. So much for hoping the gas check would prevent leading. :-(
Golden Sabre 125 gr and Gold Dot in 125 and 135 gr (both +P) will likely do everything the BB +P SWCHP will do, but not crap up the bore and chambers in the process.
Correct, my colt official police 38 special manufactured 1957 was originally rated to easily handle the new +P loads as that is what we had in 1957 anyway.
@tnoutdoors9 First off I want to say your videos are great and very educational, I am currently carrying the winchester pdx1 hollow points in my 38 S&W Body Guard, I saw how the bullets did not open up in both of your tests from your snub nose and was wondering which bullets you would recommend for carry. Thanks again for great videos
Love the tests! You need to get/borrow as .357 so you can test BB's short barrel .357 loads.
Another great video!! I will be getting a box of these to try out in my wife's LCR. I think it might be a good carry choice for her, as the recoil seems much milder than most of the other premium defense loads out there. Buffalo Bore is hard to find around here... I wonder if the Outpost ships to East TN :)
I live in East TN, but I order it, it’s easier and cheaper to get online.
It's not low recoil. This load has the velocity and recoil of most other brands' +P loads.
@Radion561 I was just watching this video and thought the same thing. Buffalo Bore advertises this round as one that should expand to some extent...they estimate their penetration at about 14 inches, so it should have expanded a fair bit more, if not for the denim. Maybe giving them the dum-dum treatment would help it out.
I am looking forward to the +P version test. That is what I have loaded in my 642
My new load for the back 110, works wonders on critters!
Sure miss this guy's ammo tests. Wish he'd come back....
Working on it......
@@tnoutdoors9 I can assure you Sir, that you and your testing have been sorely missed !!!!
I'd like to see you test Underwood Ammo's .38 special +p 158 gr Keith style semi wadcutters. Advertised velocity of 1250 fps !
Buffalo bore is the bee's knees
I'm going to try it, especially because the casings are definitely good for reloading. I have the snubbies that are Smith & Wesson older 10-5 and 10-7 they are not +p. We'll see what happens. I have a 15 shot Ruger security 9 I really do not carry that. My daughter does.
I used this ammo in a .38 LCR and it kicks like hell.
Lol, that's why I posted above against people saying it is good for 'low recoil.' I don't know of any Buffalo Bore that is low recoil.
What is to complain about? First higher velocity than any plus p lhp load. Next. Plugged with denim still expands to around 44 caliber. Penetrates adequately without too much . Last A gunfight proven load for 2 inch revolvers , especially the older lightweight Pre 72 Colts. While it is tough to duplicate the plus p load , you can handload to this performance using the same Rim Rock bullets, in an emergency and , using standard hard cast 158 for practice
Nice test. I hope you test the +P version in the future.
Another information filled great video!
Alot more lead to those semi wads than that I'm use to. Alot fuller than the ones I used back in the day.
Do the test with a bone/rib substitute and maybe a standard semi wad without the hollow point.
It probably would have expanded more out of a linger barrel. It would be interesting to see whst it would do out of a 5.5 or a 7.5 inch barrel. Alot of the single action cowboy revolvers chambered strictly for 38 special are not +P rated but are not entirely made for defense in mind either at least in these times. However it would still be interesting to see a test of some if these standard pressure loads in longer barrels.
You know when I need info on Ammo I go striaght to your Page. Thanks ✌
This load performed excellent in my opinion. Drilling holes and takin souls!
If you go to the Buffalo bore website and click on the ammo your interested in they usually have at least three real world velocities listed for different barrel lengths. that load is getting 1450fps out of a 2 1/2 inch barrel , 1700 fps has to be out of some kind of rifle.
I have no doubt this round will be effective in a self defense situation. I want a projectile capable of crushing bones too and this bullet with its weight can do the job no problem. Too bad my local gun shop don't sell them. :(
Thanks for the test.
Buy cheaper on line
I have had good luck with that BB ammo. Good video.
.38 Super is basically a longer 9mm, and a rimless round for automatics. .38 special +p is a rimmed .38 Special, but just loaded over pressure (+p).
A 158gr projectile comes out of the media weighing 159gr? That’s excellent weight retention! Weight gain?
Gas check
I understand how hollow points work but in my state I can't carry hollow points. I would love to see how fmj fair with over penitration and other issues in comparison to hollow point.
Get the wadcutters or semiwadcutters in that case. Better than FMJ.
Quick Question Good Sir:
How, if at all, would be the advantage Vs disadvantage of placing a 4.5mm steel BB in the soft lead cavity of the Buffalo Bore cartridge in the above video so far as penatration and expansion are concerned. Not as if it necessarily needs to expand any further than it currently does nor is deeper penatration necessarily desired but my inquiry is simply a "What If" that might be something interesting to see in Ballistic Gelatin, a test I haven't the location nor means to perform personally. Thank you for your time and hard work as it serves to be educational to many of us.
Be well, be safe and be blessed in all things,
Sincerely and Respectfully Yours,
... ~Benny
Dr. Benjamin Bennett Th.D
Corpus Christi, Texas
My protocol is to NEVER, EVER make alterations to ammo, for practice or defensive purposes. Why create a potential hazard for your firearm, not to mention affecting a projectile that is designed by ballistic engineers with an intended purpose relative to common physical conditions and scenarios? It's not worth it.
In the aftermath of the shooting, they will be a civil suit from the bad guys family. Their attorney will have a field day with you claiming you fired super evil homemade ammunition.
Years ago, I used to put x-cuts in the tip of my carry 158gr. LSWHP +P. Got pretty good results. I know this is standard pressure, but I believe the lead might be softer. Would that help?