I am 91 Korean War Vet - had some guns - The wad cutter was for target practice - Yup - You guys have sold me - I will reload my "Snubby" with wadcutters - Born Again Experience - thankyou
I use 158 gr hard cast double ended wadcutters and feel as secure with them as I would any other ammo. Which is not very, but it's as good as anything else and I can hit with them.
I think as long as shooters are willing to pay double or more money per round for the fancy ammo, the manufacturers are not gonna put too much effort into the old outdated ammo designs that worked so well back in the day. As for me, I’ll stick with the 148 wad cutters in my snubs.
Of course, anyone that can reload, this is NO PARTICULAR issue. I just recently purchased a LEE 148 gr full wadcutter bullet mold. It is the variant that has the "button" style nose on the front. (Hensley & Gibbs). I just got a chance to test out a few 38 loads with it this summer. It is leaving a craving to find out more via BALLISTIC GEL. 🤔
@@lestergillis8171 Be prepared to explain your "custom made hyper death machine killer rounds Lester made specifically to inflict more harm and carnage" in court when the dirtbag prosecutor trying to put you away for defending yourself takes that route, cause they will. I'm just saying: be prepared to explain that. Take lots of notes, document lots like a real manufacturer would, or something.
@@RADIOACTIVEBUNY I reload primarily for range "practice & target". IF by gov fiat, commercial ammo becomes unavailable, then I will use which ever cartridge/bullet type that I deem most suitable for substitute. 🤔
I had trouble with consistent expansion shooting defense rounds in my j-frame. I switched to hard cast wad cutters, standard velocity ammo and I get 15 to 16 inches every time. I load my own with 148 grain. It saves a lot of money and I don’t cringe every time I pull the trigger. Also, shooting standard velocity saves the brass
for a long time now I have been using wadcutters in my small light guns. they are the best loads for the little guns like the old COLT COBRA , AGENT or any J frame. I even sometimes put them in my K frames, ( and in my S&W M12-2 2" barrel). low recoil and I don't have to worry if it is going to expand or not. and they don't care if they come out of a 2" or 4" inch barrel , they are pretty consistent.
I keep my old (1968) Colt DS loaded with 148 grain wadcutters. I carry SWC ammo in Zeta 6 k-packs because I figure if I need to reload my backup I am in a boat load of trouble and need the advantage of the tapered bullets.
I had to use the old FBI load in my issued 4” Model 15 to rescue a hostage in a motel lobby in the early ‘80s and it worked just fine. Two other times I used the old lead round nose service round and it dropped the suspect in one case, and in another the suspect absorbed four center mass hits from my issued 2” Colt Detective Special and had to be stopped by a strike from my blackjack.
S&W 638 / Win 148 WC / Galco horsehide pocket holster - pretty "old school", however, there is no reason to think that this combination has stopped working...
I used to carry a handload in 45 ACP, that was a 255 gr Keith Style SWC that was moving around 800 fps. It took bowling pins off the table, took down a deer at my camp at about 15 yards. I'm sure it would have been a good manstopper.
I have about 100 rounds of that loaded in .45 auto rim brass now. Damn a bunch of expansion. It is as big coming out of the muzzle and a 9mm wants to be after it expands.... if it expands..
I know this video is a year old, but regular 38 wad cutters at 750fps out of these light guns like the Ruger LCRx make them really comfortable to shoot and maintain point of aim
I carry the plus p remmington 125gr htp and 125gr winchester personal protection and 158gr fmjfn in my old charter arms undercover! Wrks great! Those lswchp 158gr are great too!😊
My CCW is a 380 due to nerve damage in both hands a micro9 is too much. I prefer solid rounds like the Underwood. Also 100 gr hard cast flat nose and Federal's new 70 gr non-lead target round. It's fast and does well in gel even after going through clothing. I do carry Federal Hydro Shok Deep alternating with a solid round. If I needed to carry a 22lr I'd use the Federal Punch with a solid flat nose round. I have 240 gr semi-wad cutters for my 44 mag lever gun. At 70 I've had to read and experiment a lot due to physical limitations.
I’m a 42 year old Sheriff’s Deputy to has five 148 gr full wadcutters in my left cargo pocket on duty every single day. My M&P340PD is also the gun I carry off duty the most because of how nice it is to carry appendix. #snubbysociety
IIRC, (I wasn't there at the time) Wild Bill Hickok used a 36 cap and ball, about the same performance as a 380. Of course no hollow points and may have been round ball of about 100 grains. It did the job for him including a 70 yard one shot one kill on a guy shooting at him. The wadcutters and semi wadcutters both penetrate well so IMO they are viable in small guns.
Err...I own an 1851 Navy. Not even close to a 380. More like 700fps with using a BP substitute like Pyrodex with an 80 gr ball. Black Powder slower. 70 yrd's is a wives tale as well. These guns are very inaccurate, and most all shoot high.
In a 1 7/8 inch barreled J Frame, light recoiling wadcutters are easy to get good shot placement with. Five shots is all you get, so I’d rather get good hits on target as opposed to improbable bullet expansion.
Ok so that was a breath of fresh air. Great discussion. I’ve been an advocate for wad cutters for years. I have to laugh sometimes when my aging friends come by to tell me about their first (and possibly last) range trip with that simple, air weight 38 Special that the salesman talked them into buying.
I received my carry permit back in 1991.. I already owned a Taurus model 85 stainless 5 shot made in Brazil.. really nice j frame.. anyway I used to purchase Caroll reloading company .38sp reloaded waddcutters ..$3.50 box of 50 .. and you got 50 cents for the 50 rounds of returned brass!! I love full waddcutters.. as they are mild to shoot.. and you can easily see the holes cut in the target which is what they were originally intended for Target wadd cutters.. nowadays it's almost impossible to find them.. luckily I've got some stocked up and I just found an old gun shop near me that he had some old Peter's brand brand new wadd cutters.. I bought up the last four boxes he had.. purchased them in a big bulk buy years ago.. now I have to find the time to go to the range and fire my new Taurus 856 defender six shot..
To paraphrase Dick Fairburn, the 158 gr wadcutter 38 special, actually had a 1% better stop rate than the legendary 125 gr 357 magnum semi jacketed hollow point. Now it was only 1% better, but it was better.
I love my little 327 federal LCRX. 104 gr HST at 1330 or 100 gr gold dot at 1313 fps expanding to .55 up to .60 cal in water. LOUD though. I would consider the buffalo bore 130gr wadcutter at 1200 fps if that was all that was available
My neighbor was a Baltimore cop from the 50s to the 80s we used to talk about stuff like this I was talking about hollow points to him he said the only thing he never wanted to be shot with was a wadcutter as a police officer he seen quite a few people shot with wadcutters they didn't survive yeah we're talking Baltimore 17 too 19 shootings a weekend
Winchester makes a 95-grain flatpoint ball round for .380. I load it in my S&W Bodyguard .380 for exactly the reason Tom mentions in the video...the gun is tiny, the barrel is short and it is highly unlikely that a JHP round will be travelling fast enough out of that barrel to expand reliably, particularly if it encounters clothing or other obstacles. The Winchester ball round will penetrate, but because of the flat point, I believe it is more likely to upset and stop in the target. It feeds perfectly in that tiny pistol. The one thing you MUST keep in mind is that with any solid round, there is a danger of overpenetration. Target backstop is critical.
I have a snubby Model 10. I don't get much velocity from it's 2" barrel. 6 Buffalo Bore wadcutters are resting in the chambers. I think that's the best possible load for it.
I’m in Texas where’s the best place to get some honey badger 380 ammo for my Sig P238, and what about honey badger ammo coming out of the Smith & Wesson 642J frame? glad I stumbled across this conversation
I have a Colt 380 (Mark IV Gov model). 3.25" barrel. The LEE 105 grn SWC feeds through it just fine. The bullet is originally designed for 38s, (.358"). The LEE catalog claims it works just fine in a 9mm, so why not the 380 ?
I like a 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter. It is a devestating round when loaded with a propper powder load. I load all my ammo and wad cutters are great for EDC in a short barrel revolver.
I think it all comes down to profits, companies like selling $1.40 a round , copper bonded, HP , blitz , zombie home defense. vs. a .40 cent a round FMJ / wadcutter or whatever.
Ammo quest did extensive testing on 380 hollow point rounds.. out of a tiny Taurus TCP 380 short barrel Into FBI ballistic organic gel.. both bear gel and four layers of denim.. the rounds that did the best were all xtp bullets.. Hornady xtp..fiocchi XTP .. precision One XTP ... These were the few rounds that expanded uniformly and penetrated 12 in.+ The FBI minimum. So I tend to load one of the xtps..( NOT FTX critical defense)
I wonder if anyone will do a bullet mold for hard cast bullets with the Nose shape of the Lehigh or Honey Badger bullets for a more economical option for reloaders
Great video. I have not yet seen anyone talk in length about the decibel noise level and harm to hearing when having to shoot without hearing protection in a self defense situation.
Good point , that is another reason i added a .22 revolver to my arsenal,it is not going to pop your eardrums in a self defense unprotected hearing situation! 👍
Until you're shooting it indoors. Guns are extremely loud inside, no matter what you're shooting. You won't perceive the noise at the time of the incident but you'll have ringing ears once the adrenaline stops flowing.@@janmale7767
I load my 11 oz Smith 342 air light TI 38 special centennial with Federal HST...38+p 130 grain. It is proven to penetrate 13 in of ballistic gel through heavy denim... Federal achieves the plus p velocity and pressure by seating the humongous hollow point deep in the case which builds up plus p pressure without adding more powder and the edge of the humongous hollow point is flush with the case looks like a full wad cutter but it's a hollow point...
Flip a wad cutter over to be presented as a hollow point and extend the bullet out of the casing similar to a R.N. 158 gr. and you'll see some magic. S&W M-10 revolver 4" {ish} or longer barrel. What I call a "summer load" for thin wardrobe.
You got a new subscriber! I couldn’t agree more! People have bought into the marketing scheme of these ammo manufacturers with these new and “improved” bullet types, but completely disregard the wadcutter. In my opinion it’s the best round you can carry, especially out of a short barrel j-frame style revolver.?
I keep my steel .38 spl snubby loaded with +p lhp - either Underwood or BB. For an Airweight/Ultralite of whatever variety, I would not hesitate to load it with full wadcutters for defense. A couple of boutique manufacturers make a solid wadcutter but as said in the video, big brands are really missing out. I also wouldn't pass on swc for carry.
Working ER in Northridge in the early 70's we had one guy who shot at a couple of officers inside of a home. One of the officers who recovered first shot the guy between the eyes but about an inch high it made trench following the shape of the guys skull until it left the back of his head. All it gave him was a major headache, didn't cause any skull damage just an inch high trench. I should preface this with the comment that Chief Davis said, that he didn't want his officers killed with their own guns so that was why he chose that load. I did have a question regarding Honeybadger rounds, are there any actual cases known of people being shot with them? I try to load my self defense pistols with rounds with proven track records, like HST, Gold Dot etc. For animals I can see that isn't an issue but would a 9mm over penetrate a human torso?
Wise choices in 9mm. Those type HP open big real quick and are known to shrug off textile plugs. That's where you can run into over penetration issues when media corks the hole in a hollow point. Newer hp designs are better about shedding the plug of media. The modern types that look like the tip of a Phillip's screw driver look promising but I havent seen enough post shoot data to have an opinion yet. Wanna cut down on over penetration in 9mm stick with 124g hp or lighter.
👍I like Wadcutter 158. I’ve never been a ammo snob. Nor a trigger snob. Yes, I polish some areas of trigger mechanism and there’s nothing like the smooth as glass feel of a proper trigger. I think when one is in the fight most of the silly BS goes away as more important things start to work on your brain. Good stuff guys! (SUBd)🇺🇸
Interesting video guys. I have a Smith model 36 from 1966 and though told that +P fodder is OK to use I prefer standard pressure stuff. For wadcutters I like the Sellier & Ballot 148gr cartridges. I think their muzzle vel. is listed as 699fps. Good conversation gentlemen, you've earned a beer.
I had one of those 3" heavy barrel model 36 revolvers. I carried it a lot but never did shoot it. Finally sold it and bought a light weight backpacking tent. Then I bought a 6-shot Colt 3" .38 to carry on the trail. I was not in bear country.
Don’t overlook .32 wadcutters in this equation, for recoil-sensitive people. Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast 100 grain tested at over 800 fps, and you can carry reloads of their 115 grain hard cast flat nose at nearly 800 fps, for something even your grandma could shoot but will still stop a bad guy.
Thanks for mentioning this. I’m quite interested in 32 sw long as I’m recoil sensitive. However these Buffalo Bore, and ANY 32 ammo for that matter, seems no where to be found.
327 LCR, longs loaded with 98 gr Speer HBWC over 2.5 grs of Titegroup. Low recoil, extremely accurate, and I shoot it very well. They're starting to become sparse though.
I love my .38 snubbies loaded with Precision ONe copper plated wadcutters and Grizzly SWC for my speedloaders 👍 and my .44 snubby loaded with Underwood Special wadcutters and Underwood Special SWC for the speedloaders 💪
wadcutters are not popular with manufacturers because there is no tech involved. Everything has to be 3d designed with the newest metals and machining.
In my .380 and my J Frame revolvers I simply use round nose FMJ ammo. I don't use Plus P as some of my J Frames are quite old. I think at times we're too worried about penetration. If a person is wearing a heavy coat and is shot in the vital area he will be in considerable pain regardless of the amount of penetration due to broken bones or soft tissue damage. I haven't shot wad cutters since the department I worked for switched from revolvers to semi autos. But I'm open to giving it a try.
Jim Cirillo really pushed the semiwadcutters. WAY better than lead round nose. Then came the "FBI" load....that really made the 38spl nasty. Just gotta watch for hollowbased wadcutters. I've never done it but I understand they dont like usable pressures. I'm guessing the skirt blows off?
Roy you and I are the same age and in law enforcement around the same time I use to load 148 grain hollow base wad cutters inverted, for use in my snub nose revolvers. Nice shooting round that I never tested and fortunately I never had to use it as a defensive round. I had shot some small animals with good performance.
I am a firm believer in wadcutters and semi wadcutters. I also like the underwood extreme defenders/penetrators. I have had very good luck with these rounds out of my lcr and my sp101 revolvers.
I personally carry Federal HST wadcutters in my revolvers. I don't off hand remember the bullet weight but I do know I like them and they shoot very well. They are a bit snappy but nothing that can't be managed.
In my opinion a lot of new bullet design is about marketing and sales. How are they going to make a living from the volume of sales of 158 gr LSWC HP ammo. Answer is, they are not. Everybody knows they work pretty well and there's nothing left to get excited about. That's where the marketing department has to push the engineering department to come up with something new. Either new ammo or new guns, or even better, both. Of course there are improvements in both, but for the most part we dinosaurs don't get that excited about them because we know what has already become tried and true. Fortunately, the FNGs entering the market do get excited and that's good. That loosens their grip on their wallets. Innovation and increased sales is what keep the gun industry going and we dinosaurs benefit from that as much as the FNGs. I certainly don't want the gun and ammo companies to wither and die from lack of interest in new products and thereby lack of sales. But we Fudds know that there is an awfully lot of stuff coming on the market that duplicates things that came onto the market over 100 years ago, i.e., the .40 S&W and the 38/40 WCF. Or how about the 6.5 x 55 Sweedish Mauser and a lot of the "new" 6.5 cartridges. More power to them. Let the sales of the "new" calibers begin. The more prosperous the firearms industry is the more we all benefit and the happier the FNGs are.
I would guess the lack of willingness of ammo manufacturers to market wadcutters as self-defense ammo has more to do with liability than practicality. Anti-gun prosecutors will use any excuse they can to accuse an armed defender of wreckless endangerment or "shooting to kill," and ironically, the tables have turned on hollowpoints. When hollowpoints were new, the anti's argued that using hollowpoints meant someone was "out to kill." Nowdays, hollowpoints are standard, so old-school wadcutter ammo would be what the anti's view as suspect.
Ok... sooo..now the specialty ammo makers are making a full WC cast bullet at higher velocity. I don't think there is such a thing as 'overpenetration' there is either enough or not enough. I have molds for full WC for the 44 they are in 185 grain and 250 grain. Shot a wild sow who ran 180 lbs.. the 250 cast SW went almost completely end to end and she folded like a cheap card table under a fat lady.
I like to carry 250 grain full wadcutter hollow-points in my .45 Colt derringer. They're low velocity, but they cut a .45 entry hole, and they open to as much as .63 caliber.
If I remember correctly the Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter load used to be named the Antipersonnel Load. If that is true renaming it was probably due to legal issues. The load is the same whatever they call call it.
Round-nosed bullets in the hollow point type, they rely on a velocity threshold to expand. In order to reach those velocities in a snub barrel length, the charge has to be stout. Downside to that with lightweight alloy framed revolvers, the recoil is great enough to act like an inertia bullet-puller on the other rounds loaded in the chambers. I doubt seriously that .357magnum cartridges would have issues with a lack of crimp from factory, but the .38 special loads run at half the pressure of the magnums and the crimp is going to be anyone's guess.
I am sure I'm not the first one to say that ammo companies have taken their standard hollowpoints and put them in smaller boxes at double prices. Many other youtube gurus are testing wadcutters and showing very good results, especially with HARDCAST!
Thanks for pointing out that much overlooked fact. I reload & cast most of my own. I DID buy a LEE 148 gr WC (.358) mold a few yrs ago and began testing earlier this past summer in 38. The mold style that I bought was the LEE WC mold with the small "button nose" on the top. If you go to the LEE mold catalog, you will still see it there...👀 I loaded one box in 357s, but did not get around to testing any yet. I still have that box, & may load another box or so in 357 this winter. Your point, in general is much understated...😉
Really appreciate this! Helps confirm what I already knew/discovered. While I still love my 9mms. I usually pocket carry. I carry a little on the larger side for the pocket, tiny guns are harder to shoot accurately. Tiny guns with a butt load of recoil are very hard to shoot accurately, at least with follow-up shots. Some I guess I'm gonna call myself Mr. 95 grain. Because, a 95gr FMJ 380 out of a SCCY, Kahr CT 380 (I can get 3 finger grip contact and they are comfortable to shoot) stops right where it should. And a 95 grain 32 S&W Long out of a 327Fed chambered LCR does the same. Factor in real world fight-or-flight adrenaline.... I can be more accurate with these under stress than with heavier hitters... Hittin' is always better than missin'. Take (spotty) expansion out of the equation and these (380 FMJ & 32 Wadcutters) penitrate fine and have much less recoil. The bad guy is still gonna be leaking...
I gave up on hollow points a long time ago. My carry loads are heavy-for-caliber LSWC in 38 Spl, 44 Spl, or 45 ACP. For hollow points to be relevant shooters must buy into the concept of OVERpenetration. There is no such thing. Because ... the 4th Rule of Gun Safety applies at all times, even in gun fights.
For .380 I carry Underwood Xtreme Defender solid rounds that have a tip like a philips head screwdriver. With a 380 I have no faith in hollow points expanding. My faith is in penetration with that caliber. As for a 38 special snub nose revolver, for similar reasons I carry full wadcutter ammunition; it recoils less, penetrates well and is far more cost effective.
Those Black Hills honey badgers use the Lehigh extreme defender bullet.I do not know why they load them as weak as they do.Lehighs own loading of it is more powerful and Underwood's even better.
I am 91 Korean War Vet - had some guns - The wad cutter was for target practice - Yup - You guys have sold me - I will reload my "Snubby" with wadcutters - Born Again Experience - thankyou
Check out the Underwood WC, they ae great hardcast.
I use 158 gr hard cast double ended wadcutters and feel as secure with them as I would any other ammo. Which is not very, but it's as good as anything else and I can hit with them.
I think as long as shooters are willing to pay double or more money per round for the fancy ammo, the manufacturers are not gonna put too much effort into the old outdated ammo designs that worked so well back in the day. As for me, I’ll stick with the 148 wad cutters in my snubs.
Of course, anyone that can reload, this is NO PARTICULAR issue.
I just recently purchased a LEE 148 gr full wadcutter bullet mold. It is the variant that has the "button" style nose on the front. (Hensley & Gibbs). I just got a chance to test out a few 38 loads with it this summer.
It is leaving a craving to find out more via BALLISTIC GEL. 🤔
@@lestergillis8171 Be prepared to explain your "custom made hyper death machine killer rounds Lester made specifically to inflict more harm and carnage" in court when the dirtbag prosecutor trying to put you away for defending yourself takes that route, cause they will.
I'm just saying: be prepared to explain that. Take lots of notes, document lots like a real manufacturer would, or something.
@@RADIOACTIVEBUNY I reload primarily for range "practice & target".
IF by gov fiat, commercial ammo becomes unavailable, then I will use which ever cartridge/bullet type that I deem most suitable for substitute. 🤔
@@RADIOACTIVEBUNY You can be happy to know that here in Indiana, we have some version of the "Stand-your-ground" defense law.😉
"Mr. Prosecutor, is your concern that my mild target loads are too Rambo?"
That was a good point about wad cutters not jumping the crimp and tying up your revolver. Excellent conversation.
I had trouble with consistent expansion shooting defense rounds in my j-frame. I switched to hard cast wad cutters, standard velocity ammo and I get 15 to 16 inches every time. I load my own with 148 grain. It saves a lot of money and I don’t cringe every time I pull the trigger. Also, shooting standard velocity saves the brass
for a long time now I have been using wadcutters in my small light guns. they are the best loads for the little guns like the old COLT COBRA , AGENT or any J frame. I even sometimes put them in my K frames, ( and in my S&W M12-2 2" barrel). low recoil and I don't have to worry if it is going to expand or not. and they don't care if they come out of a 2" or 4" inch barrel , they are pretty consistent.
I keep my old (1968) Colt DS loaded with 148 grain wadcutters. I carry SWC ammo in Zeta 6 k-packs because I figure if I need to reload my backup I am in a boat load of trouble and need the advantage of the tapered bullets.
I had to use the old FBI load in my issued 4” Model 15 to rescue a hostage in a motel lobby in the early ‘80s and it worked just fine. Two other times I used the old lead round nose service round and it dropped the suspect in one case, and in another the suspect absorbed four center mass hits from my issued 2” Colt Detective Special and had to be stopped by a strike from my blackjack.
I love the LEE SWC and LEE wadcutter molds.
I have my LCR in 327 Federal magnum in front of me loaded with 32 S&W Long colt wadcutters. And my 442 J-frame with Underwood wadcutters. Great ammo.
That load is super low recoil and very accurate. Nice
Yep, good stuff!
I have a 250WC that I load for 44 magnum. I also have the 250 Keith SWC.
S&W 638 / Win 148 WC / Galco horsehide pocket holster - pretty "old school", however, there is no reason to think that this combination has stopped working...
I used to carry a handload in 45 ACP, that was a 255 gr Keith Style SWC that was moving around 800 fps. It took bowling pins off the table, took down a deer at my camp at about 15 yards. I'm sure it would have been a good manstopper.
I have about 100 rounds of that loaded in .45 auto rim brass now. Damn a bunch of expansion. It is as big coming out of the muzzle and a 9mm wants to be after it expands.... if it expands..
I know this video is a year old, but regular 38 wad cutters at 750fps out of these light guns like the Ruger LCRx make them really comfortable to shoot and maintain point of aim
I carry the plus p remmington 125gr htp and 125gr winchester personal protection and 158gr fmjfn in my old charter arms undercover!
Wrks great!
Those lswchp 158gr are great too!😊
My CCW is a 380 due to nerve damage in both hands a micro9 is too much. I prefer solid rounds like the Underwood. Also 100 gr hard cast flat nose and Federal's new 70 gr non-lead target round. It's fast and does well in gel even after going through clothing. I do carry Federal Hydro Shok Deep alternating with a solid round. If I needed to carry a 22lr I'd use the Federal Punch with a solid flat nose round. I have 240 gr semi-wad cutters for my 44 mag lever gun. At 70 I've had to read and experiment a lot due to physical limitations.
still using 90gr swc in my 32 Long H&R break-top. 4th generation using great grandad's gun. In my 38 snub, I run 158gr swc, or some 140gr at times.
I’m a 42 year old Sheriff’s Deputy to has five 148 gr full wadcutters in my left cargo pocket on duty every single day. My M&P340PD is also the gun I carry off duty the most because of how nice it is to carry appendix. #snubbysociety
Hey Jeff! Fancy seeing you here! I just ordered a fresh 500 ct box of ACME 146 gr WCs about an hour ago for my 642. Give me a call and let’s go shoot.
IIRC, (I wasn't there at the time) Wild Bill Hickok used a 36 cap and ball, about the same performance as a 380. Of course no hollow points and may have been round ball of about 100 grains. It did the job for him including a 70 yard one shot one kill on a guy shooting at him. The wadcutters and semi wadcutters both penetrate well so IMO they are viable in small guns.
It'll work, alright, but bear in mind that Davis Tutt was still able to run away from the gunfight before being "incapacitated" from his wound.
They say he was a king !! 🤔
Err...I own an 1851 Navy. Not even close to a 380. More like 700fps with using a BP substitute like Pyrodex with an 80 gr ball. Black Powder slower. 70 yrd's is a wives tale as well. These guns are very inaccurate, and most all shoot high.
In a 1 7/8 inch barreled J Frame, light recoiling wadcutters are easy to get good shot placement with. Five shots is all you get, so I’d rather get good hits on target as opposed to improbable bullet expansion.
My LCR is loaded with 148 grain wadcutters. 16 oz loaded and very controllable. +P or 357 goes in my SP101. Alternative I am looking at is Norma NXD.
Ok so that was a breath of fresh air. Great discussion. I’ve been an advocate for wad cutters for years. I have to laugh sometimes when my aging friends come by to tell me about their first (and possibly last) range trip with that simple, air weight 38 Special that the salesman talked them into buying.
I received my carry permit back in 1991.. I already owned a Taurus model 85 stainless 5 shot made in Brazil.. really nice j frame.. anyway I used to purchase Caroll reloading company .38sp reloaded waddcutters ..$3.50 box of 50 .. and you got 50 cents for the 50 rounds of returned brass!! I love full waddcutters.. as they are mild to shoot.. and you can easily see the holes cut in the target which is what they were originally intended for Target wadd cutters.. nowadays it's almost impossible to find them.. luckily I've got some stocked up and I just found an old gun shop near me that he had some old Peter's brand brand new wadd cutters.. I bought up the last four boxes he had.. purchased them in a big bulk buy years ago.. now I have to find the time to go to the range and fire my new Taurus 856 defender six shot..
You should try Charter Arms six shot 380 with four inch barrel.
To paraphrase Dick Fairburn, the 158 gr wadcutter 38 special, actually had a 1% better stop rate than the legendary 125 gr 357 magnum semi jacketed hollow point. Now it was only 1% better, but it was better.
I love my little 327 federal LCRX. 104 gr HST at 1330 or 100 gr gold dot at 1313 fps expanding to .55 up to .60 cal in water. LOUD though.
I would consider the buffalo bore 130gr wadcutter at 1200 fps if that was all that was available
That expansion is through 2 layers of 12 oz duck canvas
I'm interested in testing the 95 gr extreme penetrator in my 327.
I did test the 32 S&W long wadcutter in the same media and tool and got similar pen but obviously much less energy transfer.
I run +P Gold Dots in my 442. My wife runs a 642 with 90 gr Critical Defense with the pink insert for breast cancer.
Vital organs and large vasculature. There's a whole bunch in that "Center Mass" area, and the dome is pretty much a lights out switch.
PS - You want a test that accurately reflects the thoracis cavity, go buy a rack of pork ribs.
My neighbor was a Baltimore cop from the 50s to the 80s we used to talk about stuff like this I was talking about hollow points to him he said the only thing he never wanted to be shot with was a wadcutter as a police officer he seen quite a few people shot with wadcutters they didn't survive yeah we're talking Baltimore 17 too 19 shootings a weekend
Winchester makes a 95-grain flatpoint ball round for .380. I load it in my S&W Bodyguard .380 for exactly the reason Tom mentions in the video...the gun is tiny, the barrel is short and it is highly unlikely that a JHP round will be travelling fast enough out of that barrel to expand reliably, particularly if it encounters clothing or other obstacles. The Winchester ball round will penetrate, but because of the flat point, I believe it is more likely to upset and stop in the target. It feeds perfectly in that tiny pistol. The one thing you MUST keep in mind is that with any solid round, there is a danger of overpenetration. Target backstop is critical.
Another factor in .380 is that a round that does expand won't penetrate reliably.
Being aware of your target and what's behind it is one of the main rules that everyone should follow whether shooting solids or not.
my carry is a .38sp 856 Taurus with swchp.
I have a snubby Model 10. I don't get much velocity from it's 2" barrel. 6 Buffalo Bore wadcutters are resting in the chambers. I think that's the best possible load for it.
I’m in Texas where’s the best place to get some honey badger 380 ammo for my Sig P238, and what about honey badger ammo coming out of the Smith & Wesson 642J frame? glad I stumbled across this conversation
I have a Colt 380 (Mark IV Gov model).
3.25" barrel. The LEE 105 grn SWC feeds through it just fine.
The bullet is originally designed for 38s, (.358"). The LEE catalog claims it works just fine in a 9mm, so why not the 380 ?
Food for thought, thanks for the information.
I like a 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter. It is a devestating round when loaded with a propper powder load. I load all my ammo and wad cutters are great for EDC in a short barrel revolver.
I think it all comes down to profits, companies like selling $1.40 a round , copper bonded, HP , blitz , zombie home defense. vs. a .40 cent a round FMJ / wadcutter or whatever.
Ammo quest did extensive testing on 380 hollow point rounds.. out of a tiny Taurus TCP 380 short barrel
Into FBI ballistic organic gel.. both bear gel and four layers of denim.. the rounds that did the best were all xtp bullets.. Hornady xtp..fiocchi XTP .. precision One XTP ... These were the few rounds that expanded uniformly and penetrated 12 in.+ The FBI minimum. So I tend to load one of the xtps..( NOT FTX critical defense)
I personally like the Remington standard velocity 158gr lead semi wadcutter in my snubs.
I wonder if anyone will do a bullet mold for hard cast bullets with the
Nose shape of the Lehigh or Honey Badger bullets for a more economical option for reloaders
What about the 185gr. .45 ACP target semi wadcutter load, how’s it do in gel and such?
Great video.
I have not yet seen anyone talk in length about the decibel noise level and harm to hearing when having to shoot without hearing protection in a self defense situation.
Good point , that is another reason i added a .22 revolver to my arsenal,it is not going to pop your eardrums in a self defense unprotected hearing situation! 👍
Until you're shooting it indoors. Guns are extremely loud inside, no matter what you're shooting. You won't perceive the noise at the time of the incident but you'll have ringing ears once the adrenaline stops flowing.@@janmale7767
I load my 11 oz Smith 342 air light TI 38 special centennial with Federal HST...38+p 130 grain. It is proven to penetrate 13 in of ballistic gel through heavy denim... Federal achieves the plus p velocity and pressure by seating the humongous hollow point deep in the case which builds up plus p pressure without adding more powder and the edge of the humongous hollow point is flush with the case looks like a full wad cutter but it's a hollow point...
If they’re the ones I’m thinking of, they expand to about .73”, too.
Flip a wad cutter over to be presented as a hollow point and extend the bullet out of the casing similar to a R.N. 158 gr. and you'll see some magic. S&W M-10 revolver 4" {ish} or longer barrel. What I call a "summer load" for thin wardrobe.
So the conversation covered hard cast but how effective are traditional 38 Spec 150gr wad cutters? Weak? Or strong?
Effective enough.
You got a new subscriber! I couldn’t agree more! People have bought into the marketing scheme of these ammo manufacturers with these new and “improved” bullet types, but completely disregard the wadcutter. In my opinion it’s the best round you can carry, especially out of a short barrel j-frame style revolver.?
I keep my steel .38 spl snubby loaded with +p lhp - either Underwood or BB. For an Airweight/Ultralite of whatever variety, I would not hesitate to load it with full wadcutters for defense. A couple of boutique manufacturers make a solid wadcutter but as said in the video, big brands are really missing out. I also wouldn't pass on swc for carry.
Working ER in Northridge in the early 70's we had one guy who shot at a couple of officers inside of a home. One of the officers who recovered first shot the guy between the eyes but about an inch high it made trench following the shape of the guys skull until it left the back of his head. All it gave him was a major headache, didn't cause any skull damage just an inch high trench. I should preface this with the comment that Chief Davis said, that he didn't want his officers killed with their own guns so that was why he chose that load. I did have a question regarding Honeybadger rounds, are there any actual cases known of people being shot with them? I try to load my self defense pistols with rounds with proven track records, like HST, Gold Dot etc. For animals I can see that isn't an issue but would a 9mm over penetrate a human torso?
Wise choices in 9mm. Those type HP open big real quick and are known to shrug off textile plugs.
That's where you can run into over penetration issues when media corks the hole in a hollow point. Newer hp designs are better about shedding the plug of media. The modern types that look like the tip of a Phillip's screw driver look promising but I havent seen enough post shoot data to have an opinion yet.
Wanna cut down on over penetration in 9mm stick with 124g hp or lighter.
👍I like Wadcutter 158. I’ve never been a ammo snob. Nor a trigger snob. Yes, I polish some areas of trigger mechanism and there’s nothing like the smooth as glass feel of a proper trigger. I think when one is in the fight most of the silly BS goes away as more important things start to work on your brain. Good stuff guys! (SUBd)🇺🇸
Great discussion and insight!
Interesting video guys. I have a Smith model 36 from 1966 and though told that +P fodder is OK to use I prefer standard pressure stuff. For wadcutters I like the Sellier & Ballot 148gr cartridges. I think their muzzle vel. is listed as 699fps. Good conversation gentlemen, you've earned a beer.
I had one of those 3" heavy barrel model 36 revolvers. I carried it a lot but never did shoot it. Finally sold it and bought a light weight backpacking tent. Then I bought a 6-shot Colt 3" .38 to carry on the trail. I was not in bear country.
If it worked in the 70's, it will work now.
org hydro-shock was full wadcutters with a cone 147 gr lead ..made by scorpion co. then fed bought them
Don’t overlook .32 wadcutters in this equation, for recoil-sensitive people. Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast 100 grain tested at over 800 fps, and you can carry reloads of their 115 grain hard cast flat nose at nearly 800 fps, for something even your grandma could shoot but will still stop a bad guy.
BB rates the 100 grain at well over 100 fps faster than the 115 grain, with the added bonus of making the gun a little lighter to carry.
Yep!
Thanks for mentioning this. I’m quite interested in 32 sw long as I’m recoil sensitive. However these Buffalo Bore, and ANY 32 ammo for that matter, seems no where to be found.
@@mikem.2078 The websites for Buffalo Bore, Outdoor Limited, Midway USA and Lucky Gunner all have .32 long right now.
@@mikem.2078 You have to order them by mail.
327 LCR, longs loaded with 98 gr Speer HBWC over 2.5 grs of Titegroup. Low recoil, extremely accurate, and I shoot it very well. They're starting to become sparse though.
a friend of mine worked for the Border Patrol in the 50's and there duty ammo was S&W 148 grain hollow base wad cutters, think about that
I love my .38 snubbies loaded with Precision ONe copper plated wadcutters and Grizzly SWC for my speedloaders 👍
and my .44 snubby loaded with Underwood Special wadcutters and Underwood Special SWC for the speedloaders 💪
What exactly is the practical difference of a wad cutter vs a semi wad cutter?
A little easier to load
Remember: 1) crush damage is permanent, 2) lower recoil = both faster follow ups and 3) tighter shot grouping in 'mad minute' scenarios.
wadcutters are not popular with manufacturers because there is no tech involved. Everything has to be 3d designed with the newest metals and machining.
In my .380 and my J Frame revolvers I simply use round nose FMJ ammo. I don't use Plus P as some of my J Frames are quite old. I think at times we're too worried about penetration. If a person is wearing a heavy coat and is shot in the vital area he will be in considerable pain regardless of the amount of penetration due to broken bones or soft tissue damage. I haven't shot wad cutters since the department I worked for switched from revolvers to semi autos. But I'm open to giving it a try.
I prefer wadcutters in my snubs and been using them since i was a kid and i did carry when i was a kid, nobody said a word in my small town....
For 380... 🤔... fmj flat nose or even the fluted rounds are interesting.
I've been carrying the Underwood 150 wad cutters in my 442. Anti hollow point New Jersey.
Jim Cirillo really pushed the semiwadcutters. WAY better than lead round nose.
Then came the "FBI" load....that really made the 38spl nasty.
Just gotta watch for hollowbased wadcutters. I've never done it but I understand they dont like usable pressures. I'm guessing the skirt blows off?
Just got 2 boxes of lswhp 44 spc today.
can n ball.... lol That was great. I use copper head wadcutters.... 38 Special. Nice.
Geco ?
@@colloidalsilver1096 Precision. I also see Freedom has em now, too.
Why not cut the tip off of the 158 gr lead round nose? Aren't wadcutters kind of expensive?
Roy you and I are the same age and in law enforcement around the same time I use to load 148 grain hollow base wad cutters inverted, for use in my snub nose revolvers. Nice shooting round that I never tested and fortunately I never had to use it as a defensive round. I had shot some small animals with good performance.
...I just bought a box of Buffalo Bore 38 wadcutters for my late wife's S&W 442...
great video
Good information
.23 Long full wadcutters are the preferred load in my Taurus model 73.
I am a firm believer in wadcutters and semi wadcutters. I also like the underwood extreme defenders/penetrators. I have had very good luck with these rounds out of my lcr and my sp101 revolvers.
Get off the 380, we're here for wadcutters.
I personally carry Federal HST wadcutters in my revolvers. I don't off hand remember the bullet weight but I do know I like them and they shoot very well. They are a bit snappy but nothing that can't be managed.
150 gr - they stopped producing them for some reason.
Even a zipper or a button on someone's coat or jacket can seriously interfere with hollow point expansion.
In my opinion a lot of new bullet design is about marketing and sales. How are they going to make a living from the volume of sales of 158 gr LSWC HP ammo. Answer is, they are not. Everybody knows they work pretty well and there's nothing left to get excited about. That's where the marketing department has to push the engineering department to come up with something new. Either new ammo or new guns, or even better, both. Of course there are improvements in both, but for the most part we dinosaurs don't get that excited about them because we know what has already become tried and true. Fortunately, the FNGs entering the market do get excited and that's good. That loosens their grip on their wallets. Innovation and increased sales is what keep the gun industry going and we dinosaurs benefit from that as much as the FNGs. I certainly don't want the gun and ammo companies to wither and die from lack of interest in new products and thereby lack of sales. But we Fudds know that there is an awfully lot of stuff coming on the market that duplicates things that came onto the market over 100 years ago, i.e., the .40 S&W and the 38/40 WCF. Or how about the 6.5 x 55 Sweedish Mauser and a lot of the "new" 6.5 cartridges. More power to them. Let the sales of the "new" calibers begin. The more prosperous the firearms industry is the more we all benefit and the happier the FNGs are.
Well said! But there is a certain amount of greed creeping in when a well estavlished defensive round is only sold in 20 round boxes....
I would guess the lack of willingness of ammo manufacturers to market wadcutters as self-defense ammo has more to do with liability than practicality. Anti-gun prosecutors will use any excuse they can to accuse an armed defender of wreckless endangerment or "shooting to kill," and ironically, the tables have turned on hollowpoints. When hollowpoints were new, the anti's argued that using hollowpoints meant someone was "out to kill." Nowdays, hollowpoints are standard, so old-school wadcutter ammo would be what the anti's view as suspect.
Ok... sooo..now the specialty ammo makers are making a full WC cast bullet at higher velocity. I don't think there is such a thing as 'overpenetration' there is either enough or not enough. I have molds for full WC for the 44 they are in 185 grain and 250 grain. Shot a wild sow who ran 180 lbs.. the 250 cast SW went almost completely end to end and she folded like a cheap card table under a fat lady.
I like to carry 250 grain full wadcutter hollow-points in my .45 Colt derringer. They're low velocity, but they cut a .45 entry hole, and they open to as much as .63 caliber.
Dating myself, but I well remember when .38 Special Wadcutters were the Cat's Pajamas (where the H*** did that saying come from anyway??).
Just curious, why would someone need to shoot an armadillo? Quick Henry we’ve been overrun there’s armadillos everywhere.😂
😂😂😂
I have under wood 225 grain 45 long colt hard cast waddcutters in my judge advertised at 1052 fps along with pdx1 and hornady 225 grain fxt hps
Everything old is new again!
Hand loaded 148 gr. Hollow base wadcutter, inverted . Unique powder. Since forever. Always deforms flattens, etc
Still got the navel cam happening😂😂😂
Ever tried a 150 grain Hard cast round hollow base ? [ Mine ball ] .
If I remember correctly the Buffalo Bore hard cast wadcutter load used to be named the Antipersonnel Load. If that is true renaming it was probably due to legal issues. The load is the same whatever they call call it.
The reason why your "round nose ball bullets" were walking forward out of the cases, is due to inadequate crimp.
Round-nosed bullets in the hollow point type, they rely on a velocity threshold to expand. In order to reach those velocities in a snub barrel length, the charge has to be stout. Downside to that with lightweight alloy framed revolvers, the recoil is great enough to act like an inertia bullet-puller on the other rounds loaded in the chambers. I doubt seriously that .357magnum cartridges would have issues with a lack of crimp from factory, but the .38 special loads run at half the pressure of the magnums and the crimp is going to be anyone's guess.
@@exothermal.sprocket That is one very important reason why I don't like snubbies.
I am sure I'm not the first one to say that ammo companies have taken their standard hollowpoints and put them in smaller boxes at double prices. Many other youtube gurus are testing wadcutters and showing very good results, especially with HARDCAST!
Thanks for pointing out that much overlooked fact.
I reload & cast most of my own.
I DID buy a LEE 148 gr WC (.358) mold a few yrs ago and began testing earlier this past summer in 38. The mold style that I bought was the LEE WC mold with the small "button nose" on the top. If you go to the LEE mold catalog, you will still see it there...👀
I loaded one box in 357s, but did not get around to testing any yet. I still have that box, & may load another box or so in 357 this winter.
Your point, in general is much understated...😉
If it'll poke a hole in 'em, they'll likely notice it!
take a look at the Liberty 68gr .380 HP.
Really appreciate this! Helps confirm what I already knew/discovered. While I still love my 9mms. I usually pocket carry. I carry a little on the larger side for the pocket, tiny guns are harder to shoot accurately. Tiny guns with a butt load of recoil are very hard to shoot accurately, at least with follow-up shots. Some I guess I'm gonna call myself Mr. 95 grain. Because, a 95gr FMJ 380 out of a SCCY, Kahr CT 380 (I can get 3 finger grip contact and they are comfortable to shoot) stops right where it should. And a 95 grain 32 S&W Long out of a 327Fed chambered LCR does the same. Factor in real world fight-or-flight adrenaline.... I can be more accurate with these under stress than with heavier hitters... Hittin' is always better than missin'.
Take (spotty) expansion out of the equation and these (380 FMJ & 32 Wadcutters) penitrate fine and have much less recoil. The bad guy is still gonna be leaking...
Bump
45 colt wad cutters are solid power out of my Vaquero !
I gave up on hollow points a long time ago. My carry loads are heavy-for-caliber LSWC in 38 Spl, 44 Spl, or 45 ACP.
For hollow points to be relevant shooters must buy into the concept of OVERpenetration. There is no such thing. Because ... the 4th Rule of Gun Safety applies at all times, even in gun fights.
For .380 I carry Underwood Xtreme Defender solid rounds that have a tip like a philips head screwdriver. With a 380 I have no faith in hollow points expanding. My faith is in penetration with that caliber. As for a 38 special snub nose revolver, for similar reasons I carry full wadcutter ammunition; it recoils less, penetrates well and is far more cost effective.
So you're saying there's something wrong with cap and cannonball?
SO Its good if copper does it , but bad if Lead does it?
Those Black Hills honey badgers use the Lehigh extreme defender bullet.I do not know why they load them as weak as they do.Lehighs own loading of it is more powerful and Underwood's even better.