Hello you beauties. Access all episodes 10 hours earlier than RUclips by Subscribing on Spotify - spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - apple.co/2MNqIgw. Here’s the timestamps: 00:00 The One Rule of Men 09:39 Why Is So Much Expected of Men? 13:26 Men’s Roles in Competition & War 23:14 The Double Standard of Aggression & Vulnerability 33:39 The Huge Rise of Internet Men’s Advice 45:12 Vacancy of Father Figures & Friends for Boys 58:19 How Does Fatherlessness Actually Impact Young Men? 1:06:54 Vulnerability Around Men Discussing Sex 1:15:15 Increasing Testosterone Improve’s Men’s Capacity 1:25:36 Advice to Men Who Want to Open Up More 1:32:30 Where to Find Connor
Chris, thank you so much for this conversation. I appreciate this. Respect. Sending love and blessings from South Africa 🇿🇦 ❤ I'm not sure if you'll be having more conversations like this, but I hope so. These are valuable, and I didn't even know how much of this I didn't know, and I am very grateful to finally have some clarity about a few things. Keep well ✌️
Thanks for your work Chris, the bit you did about how you naturally increased your testosterone would be really useful as a video subject or maybe another format , I'm 55 by the way and I sense mine is low but don't want meds 😊
I was 11 years old when my father died. I'm now 80. Looking back, it's clear to me that not having him around was the biggest reason for the lack of direction in my life.
I know it was a long time ago but I’m sorry. I lost my father when I turned 18 and even 15 years later, I’ve struggled to keep my compass pointing north. I’m not a f up but there have been many times where I needed a father figure to point me in the right direction instead of winging it or asking someone else.
My dad died when I was 14, but even before he didn’t teach my brothers and I how to be a man. So we were raised by mom and basically we’re dysfunctional and weak. I married a dominant wife who treated me like a doormat.
Men can vent to other men that they are very close with. Your best friend or your dad. Venting is good for your mental health. But after you have gotten your feelings out, it's time for action. Take steps to do what you need to improve your life, your situation, and your mental space. You can't just only talk your way out of depression or a bad place in life. You have to DO something about it.
I’ve never had a problem giving my best friends my most vulnerable thoughts and feelings. We still competed. But never with each others trusted shit and when we were young we competed in a way to make us better for when we competed together against other groups of men. Which we always won. Lol
They can. But more often they don’t or they only give very superficial access to what’s really going on. The man listening often isn’t really listening, he’s looking to fix his mates problem. Not saying this is always the case. Some men are amazing listeners but more often than not we aren’t and women have sorted need out much more effectively.
It's interesting to see scientists and academics slowly realize that we act certain ways because of biology and necessity, not because the "patriarchy planned it this way."
Gay men, despite being biologically identical to straight men, are much more free to be vulnerable and express emotions and very often do (gay guys have 0 qualms about crying in public, for instance). This is because these are quite obviously social taboos and not biological. We hold different types of people to different standards because of social norms.
@@rantsofmyzen Well it's definitely true to say without the invention of property we'd be barely better than knuckle dragging chimps lol. I'm not sure about the rest though.
To me it often feels like they are trying a forced evolution ahead of its time. It's not to say there can never be a time in the far future where all men and women are empathic , kind, vulnerable yet strong people - but as long as scarcity exists that will never be the case cause somebody will have to jump over somebody else. Ironically if the left wants to win - they should be solving nuclear fusion and climate change lol
Im 16, My dad was in operation iraqi freedom, his dad was in the Vietnam war and with each generation there’s been a war. With that comes trauma and i can definitely see it in my dad at times. He’s made it his lifes purpose to stop this inheritance of trauma and i respect him for that.
I’m from at least four generations (including myself) of fighting men, four different wars. It does leave scars, but it doesn’t define us entirely. It’s just part of the lessons learned by the worst the world can offer. It’s not an excuse to just curl up and die. It’s an experience to be learned from. You bear your scars, and you keep going. No man should die without a few scars to prove their worth. If you can bear war and service, you can bear anything. That which does not kill you truly makes you stronger, but you have to WANT it to. You have to work for it. Surrendering entirely to suffering is death. Recognizing and bearing your suffering is experience. Doing something about it is purpose and achievement. You can always level up. What you level up into is up to you, but you can always push for it, even if slowly and in small ways.
Young man, it sounds like he's doing a good job. As a son and a father, the only thing I ever hope for is that my son knows enough of my life and decisions to be able to respect me also.
hey i'm just wondering if you're able to objectively acknowledge that the USA wasn't fighting for "freedom" in the Middle East. Unfortunately people like your dad and grandfather were brainwashed into thinking it's about "freedom", when in reality they were used as pawns in order to make more money for the elite at the top of Western society. The amount of damage and murder and lives lost in Middle Eastern countries due to the USA's continuous war crimes and infiltration is without a doubt of larger magnitude than anything Americans have ever had to face. I'm not saying any of this to try to be insulting, just to hopefully get you to understand that an American life isn't somehow better or more valuable than a non-American life (replace American with Western or white if it helps the overall message)
As a man nobody's coming to save you. Society will let men crumble and fall before any help is offered. You must save yourself. This is taking your life in your own hands. I highly recommend starting small and building upon good habits. Starting with exercising 30 minutes a day, 5 to 6 days a week.
@@johndoe-fq7ez the other stuff like friendship and relationships just takes social skills. Social skills being something that needs practice. Join clubs, reach out to friends, hangout in person, try and be a little bit confident. Career wise, we all know we can't get further without some education/ training. Take online classes. Take community college classes. Train and learn in a specific field or practice until you get a degree or a certificate or some experience. It's tuff out there. Life is a competition. Everything takes effort, patience, time, consistency. Things won't just flip around in a day or 2. It will take months and years of building yourself up.
Can we flip the script around about this? Think of "nobody is coming to the rescue" as an implicit societal stress test. If you undertake it and come out ok (note: you can even lose and still come out ok), then you are that much stronger on the other side. As long as you don't lose your life over small losses/setbacks, you get to live to fight another day. It's all going to be ok.
36:38 "So you hate your life because your wife took the kids and half of your net worth". I live in the UK and my wife took 70% of my net worth despite us only having 1 kid and her earning more than me. Its good to finally hear someone talking about this particular manosphere topic on Chris' podcast. And its not just taking the kids, its all the years of child support and heating co-parenting that follows too.
I think I had an epiphany about halfway through this video; All my goals and the things I aspire to, become learned, become skilled, become wise, be better in the ways I can, it's all in a chase to become the positive male role model I never had growing up. I've been thoroughly shown what _not_ to do, now it's up to me to figure out what to do right instead.
Same here bro. I was depressed as hell for a long ass time in life not really doing anything with myself and feeling like a loser because I couldn't get girls. At some point, I decided to make a change. I devoted myself to finishing school and improving myself in every aspect because I realized that my life was my responsibility and no one else's. At some point along the way, I realized I was becoming the kind of man I wish I'd had as a father. Literally one semester away now from achieving my Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering while working as an intern in the engineering department of an Aircraft Supply company. It was not easy to get this far, but no matter what I kept pushing myself forward because I never want to return to the sad, pathetic boy I used to be.
@@brianmeen2158 we dont have any organized institutions to look out for our interests. theres all kinds of womens rights orgs and womens shelters and special assistance for women in poverty or single mothers, but we don't have any equivalent institutions that look out for men. we have to develop a sense of collective support for each other as men. we have to understand each other, put aside some of our ideas about competitiveness and replace them with solidarity. a bro code, if you will.
Regarding the vulnerability, I believe there are two kinds of it: vulnerable strong and vulnerable weak. Women want the first one. Vulnerable strong is a feeling: Im lost, I feel like shit, but I will handle this. Vulnerable weak is: Im lost, I feel like shit, I dunno what to do (desperate). It correlates with what they have been saying
It does mean therapy causes suicide it is biased towards already mentally ill people because if you are very mentally ill with several things at the same time it's more likely you will be in therapy. And if you got big bad traumas and start therapy they will come up
I read a quote (maybe it was Churchill lol). A woman would rather you die on your horse, than fall off. Played it over & over in my head for weeks before I understood the meaning.
"I like what you had to say…but my wife and daughters? They’d rather see me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall off. You say you want us to be vulnerable and real, but c’mon. You can’t stand it. It makes you sick to see us like that." From a man speaking to Brené Brown a "Shame" researcher. You will likely be able to find her Ted Talk where she shares the experience of this conversation.
You could take the same sentiment farther back and remember the Spartan mantra - "With your shield, or on it." Quite apropos to this podcast, in the movie "300" that line is delivered by a woman.
Great point about men coming back from war. My dad came back from ww2 only wanting to settle down and have a family and home It was only much later in life my mum told me about the nightmares Only once - when he got drunk at my brother’s wedding did he out of the blue say, “They just don’t know what it was like.”
"Does The World Actually Want Vulnerable Men?" --- no... but as a man, I wish women would be more honest about that, as opposed to lying & saying they want vulnerable men & then after he cries, she dry texts him for months, slowly starts taking longer to answer back his calls & texts before eventually ghosting him & then leaving him for a guy who is cold, stoic, never cries & never shows emotion.
Women speak emotions, and men speak empiricism. Just use that information to your advantage . When speaking to them, lead them to an emotional journey. Leave empiricism on the side until talking and interacting with male friends.
@@villaespesa1 "Women speak emotions, and men speak empiricism." --- in other words, never listen to what women say, because almost all of what they say will be how they feel & none of what they'll say will be based in truth facts or empirical data. "When speaking to them, lead them to an emotional journey." --- i'm not leading them on shit lol. i only deal in terms of reality. if women don't care about how men feel, idc about how women feel either. "Leave empiricism on the side until talking and interacting with male friends." --- i'm not going to allow a woman to decide how i think, talk & move through life. i'm going to continue to think empirically & if she doesn't see the value in the gendered differences between me & her & how we think & act, then she can kick rocks.
@@villaespesa1: Overly simplistic. All people have emotions. Humans are not rational. We can organize our thoughts and actions rationally but even when doing so we are still experiencing emotions. The physicist who is doing vector calculus to determine when a theoretical wormhole will collapse is still emotionally invested in doing the work and even in the result of the work. The difference is in how we emote and process emotion, not that we operate on empiricism.
@asdfdc1946 I hear you, bud. It can be exhausting, I've been there and lost my patience many times LOL but we're different. There are some exceptional women who are reasonable, who have common sense and logic, but keep in mind that even those are women at the end of the day.
@maxwell flitton: "They say one thing but want the exact opposite." --- facts. which is why when women talk, men have to listen through what she's saying... not listen to the actual words, but read between the lines & decipher the bullshit to get to the actual subtext. because what she says is almost never what she actually means. "Another thing I've noticed is that men who are in long term relationships get more silent as the years go by. It's because what they say gets used against them later on." --- facts. with women, men start at 100 & the more he says, she docks off points & looks for reasons to discard him. women do this because they have so many options. this is why women often cut off good men for making a single awkward joke that doesn't land on a date etc.... they're looking for reasons to get rid of you. & even after a woman has chosen a man for a long term relationship, he's still subject to the woman's internal mate selecting process. even in a marriage, her hypergamy is still causing her to hold his words against him so she can rule him out & replace him for a better partner. it never ends. "Over time it's just not worth talking most of the time. If the man expresses an emotion that the woman doesn't like, then that's also an issue for an argument." --- exactly. women's hypergamy is constantly looking to rule men out for ANY reason. make a crude joke? you're out. show too much emotion? you're not stoic, so therefore not a good protector, not masculine enough, you're out. women do this subconsciously & don't even realize they're doing it. this is why red pill dudes always say silence & absence is the best strategy to deal with women. because they're always looking for ways to rule you out.
The missing piece IMO is that in the past families were close to other families.... the women would talk and then relay the struggles of the other man to their man.... the good men would reach out to the struggling man to help..... that is missing in today's individualistic society.
I'm facing open heart surgery in less than 2 weeks and opening up about my concerns and mixed emotions never felt better despite the popular belief that men shouldn't show vulnerability. Speaking about all that made me feel stronger because of the amount of support and love I am receiving... Men, don't be afraid to speak up!
How does it help. If I will say "dont worry & dont be hysterical", you will feel better?! Or you want me to tell you that the Doctors are idiots. They cant even tell a fat person to excersize. They are as stupid as everyone else & they cant even tell you the truth. My dog has heart murmurs. Enlarged heart. I gave up on doctors & put him on herbal medication. I am giving him Hawthorn & Motherwort ... for his heart. He is doing great. Better than the regular medication with the side effects. * My point that I cant make you feel better. Nobody can. All I can say is Good luck.
Thank you, thank you Connor Beaton for understanding a woman like me! I grew up in a family that did not show their emotions and only saw my father cry for the first time 8 years ago when my mother died. I was 37 at the time. I have been called cold hearted by many partners because I don't know how to deal with a high level of emotion. I have been blessed/cursed with a logical mind so I don't use a lot of energy on things that take away from my peace. Don't get me wrong, I am a perimenopausal woman, I defiantly have my moments... I am willing to accept that I am just not going to be the emotional one in a relationship and that is ok, I am willing to work with a man allowing them their space to process the issue. But, men don't seem to understand my Spock like mind at all and nor are they willing to understand. Sigh. It was such a relief to hear you speak to this! And, thank you Chris for being you!
Most men learn as small children that any show of weakness will result in a savage response from the girls around them. Other boys might tease them, and make life harder, but its the girls who are really savage. Sadly it takes most boys much longer to figure out that the only reason people other than their parents, and possibly their siblings, care about them if for they can get out of them. Comedians, like Chris Rock, have honest monologues about these issues. Most of society seems too afraid of the harsh reality of human nature to be really honest about it.
The danger is also that standing up against or becoming emotional out of hurt from bad treatment and abuses is also labeled as weak, victim mentality, and unmasculine. Human nature is very harsh and quite destructive.
@@kc6810 A boy will beat you. This hurts physically right then and there, and maybe you'll get a bruise, or a scar. Later in life, you can tell your friends about the fight you got into. A girl will gossip about your weakness. She will lose respect for you, and gain respect for the boy who hit you. He can dominate you, but you can't dominate him. Bullied boys only ever recover when they transition to a new school, where their reputation and respect haven't yet been established. This is how it works throughout your whole life, and the sooner you learn, the better. If you get beaten, beat the guy back, and more severely than he beat you. If you don't, you're gonna have a really, really hard time, and never find your footing.
This talk was one of my favorite of yours', Chris. You and Connor conceptualized these issues with so much clarity, fairness, equanimity (not leaning into rage against gynocentrism, etc) and humor. As a fellow Albertan, I resonate with much of Connor's story. I would like to add that I think the issue of fatherlessness is deeper than just physical presence/absence. The most significant harms of fatherlessness are certainly in homes where the father is gone physically. However, the ecosystem of many homes where the father is present can still be dysfunctional. Anyone who has grown up in suburbs in the western world (whether Canada, US, Australia or UK) will recognize how many dads retreat from the life of the home and are not present emotionally/psychologically. I'm not going to fully blame this on gynocentrism/feminism, there's no big social issue that one gender causes alone. Clearly the rise of 3rd wave feminism and the rising anti-male sentiment is a part of this. I first noticed it when Oprah was super popular, how these ideas of "women are always right", "happy wife, happy life". And this was echoed in how all sitcoms had the bumbling buffoon dad's, literally every sitcom in the 90's. What I saw in the suburbs was that wives/moms seems to become more and more domineering, while simultaneously dad's were retreating, stepping back. Usually the Dad's escape to the garage, or the basement, their friend's garage/basement or the pub. My dad was like this. Again, it's not just on women. Men play a part in retreating and disengaging, though I fully understand why many men acted in this way. The dynamic I'm describing seemed to be the case for at least 3/4 of the parents I encountered. And these trends played off each other. As men retreated more, wives/moms tend to become angry that the dad is retreating and caring less. Talking to older women about this, they often say that they would start arguments as a way to get the man to care more, become more engaged. However, it often had the opposite effect, men retreating more. Again, I can understand both sides. In terms of the male side of this, I always think of that African proverb: "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth." This is how many boys and men now feel, I believe. For the women, I can understand their anger as well. All of us were forced into an economic situation where both parents usually have to work. I mean, practically speaking, families could get by with less and not have both parents working. However, in the suburbs in the western world, it's naive to overlook the very strong cultural influence of "keeping up with the jones'", which is how suburban living leads people to behave. Each family is more or less isolated, neighbors are not really as involved as helpful as the storybook type of suburbs (like the neighbor Wilson in Home Improvement, and again, even he always spoke through the fence, which is symbolic for the isolation of suburbs). Given all of this, most families succumb to the pressure to keep up with neighbors, having new cars, giving your kids the things that other kids have. Given all of this, the problem is much more one of both genders and both parents struggling in a changing world where isolation is increasing, where our social institutions are all crumbling (the strength of marriages, families, relationships, communities, schools etc, all are getting weaker), and where economic pressures and mental health concerns just keep rising. With this context in mind, it makes sense why Dad's retreated and why women became more domineering. All of that to say, households with Dad's who have retreated in this way will also show signs of fatherlessness. Often these households feature little in the way of the mom and dad approaching family issues on a united front. Resentment is always at a fever pitch, the kids learn themelves to isolate. The whole family might all be in the living room, but when they are all on their own devices, you might as well be in separate countries. When dad's are not present emotionally/psychologically, even though they are present, boys will struggle more in their development than boys whose Dad's were fully present. And not just in the households with defeated Dad's, when we look at our communities and institutions, it's very clear that men have retreated. Regarding the pandemic and how western countries made many spectacular errors, Janice Fiamengo (who you should absolutely have on your show, Chris) wrote a brilliant article on substack titled "I hope the future isn't female". In this article she talks about how the retreat of men and masculine perspectives from decision making was a big factor in why Canada (similar in other western nations) became so hysterical in the face of the virus. Even though men still occupy many decision making positions, the ones who are there often have to jetison their masculine ways of thinking if they want to retain that job. There are so many males in leadership positions who have no trace whatsoever of a backbone and who bend to females and minorities at every turn. Males and females have worked so well for centuries and millennia because of how we complement each other. Females are more risk averse and men can help to balance this, whereas men are often more risk-seeking and females balance that. Just one example. Now that there are more females in decision making roles, and now that female perspectives reign surpreme, we see the imbalance. What were the pandemic blunders if not unmitigated hysteria? All the fear mongering from media and gov't and how we closed schools for up to 2 years, despite the data being crystal clear in Summer of 2020 that healthy kids were not at serious risk from the virus, nor of spreading the virus. I work in the youth mental health field at a kid's hospital. Since Summer 2020, the admissions for su1c1de attempts, overdoses, severe eating disorders, psychosis and more have shot through the roof. It's still bad and only going to get worse. The school closures were an example of coddling/safteyism, hysterical overprotection that lead to net harms. This did not happen in countries were males were more present in decision making. Not just physically present but emotionally/psychologically present. And the kids I work with often say how they feel like there are "no real adults around", no one wanting to enforce boundaries, teach responsibility, discipline, provide structure, etc. These are typically things that men provide, even just through example. But the presence of males and masculine perspectives in society is now so lacking.
In my experience - when women say "I want you to be vulnerable with me" - they are actually saying "Tell me how wonderful I am or how important I am to you!". That is the only thing they are capable of digesting.
Women don't really want "vulnerability" from men. They want men to cater to their needs. So maybe they want men to be vulnerable to them, but invulnerable to the rest of the world (similar to the Samson and Deliliah story).
Women attribute their own meanings to words (womanese), since Women lean on their emotions to make decisions, they give their own meaning to words depending on how that word makes then feel. Unlike men, who use language to describe, that's why language is descriptive because men created it.
This is probably true for most men, but I built a friend circle that supports each other, and shares our vulnerabilities. We are married or single., but all face the same problems. I am almost 50, but even when we were 15 we shared our feelings at times Talk to other men, find friends you can share with, we all need it. To be honest, I never compare myself to other men as far as 'status', I laugh at the ones who try too hard.
Women love our pain and our ability to endure it so long as it’s silent. But women hate it once that same pain gains a voice and speaks a language that she considers inconvenient.
They're Machiavellian creatures to the core, the way he explained _how_ females want you vulnerable, meant they only want it in a way that _benefits_ them, same as it ever was.
Nah - they want us to be their mountains.. Like their strong dad, when they were pre puberty.. ANY weakness is like the tiny scratch on a glass table - an indication of risk of breaking under pressure.. Stiff upper lip, as they say in England.
Yup, they love their slaves stoic and most importantly, quiet. After all, if YOU’RE talking, you’re not listening to THEM talk, and that they simply will not bear.
@5:00 onward really hit deep. I almost didnt finish high-school for the same reasons despite being highy academically gifted/capable. As a result of my lack of direction and discipline at that stage, my life has since been largely driven by other people. Currently in my Mid 20's and ive relegated myself to shoveling dirt and essentially wasting away at a construction site in the humid, muddy swamp, that is Florida. I feel so out of place here. There was a time when I was receiving multiple academic scholarships for the top schools in the entire Carribbean region and I was expected by my peers and family to be highly successful and now ... im just here. I feel resentful towards myself for not being more disciplined earlier on when the bricks for my current life were being placed. Im resentful towards society for allowing this to happen to me. However, im fully aware of the cognitive dissonance that statement lives in and understand it comes from a disappointment in myself. Everyday I wonder if this is all my life will ever be.
Your last few sentences hit home, thank you for putting into words what I've felt but didn't know how to articulate. Thank you for your honesty, kind Internet stranger
Feel ya bro. Kinda in a similar spot myself. Keep ya head up and keep on keeping on. It has to get better. Btw, you must be a very thoughtful individual and moving within the same niches as me here on RUclips, since you grabbed my attention at least once before. I have your "flow" playlist saved in my library 😀
@pocztmistrzztczewa Thats awesome haha I didn't even realize that was public lol I hope u enjoyed it. I make music as a hobby and its a big part of my social life so it's genuinely gratifying when someone says they like anything associated with the music I listen to.
Gifted burnout is real bro, you're not alone. I was supposed to be my family's shining star. Everyone was sure I was going to end up a brain surgeon or rocket scientist or something. Come back and rescue everyone from poverty. Instead I ended up barely average and I had to claw my way there sometimes against internal factors. Now all I want is a peaceful life.
I'm 35 now but my 20's was not easy and i constantly was in a state of FOMO which lead to drinking every single day and going out with friends as much as i could until i reached a point where i hit a wall and had to start building myself up. It seems like things will be the same forever but it does change in time, you have to put your head down and embrace discomfort and struggle every day, get used to doing something hard every day and eventually every day life is a breeze.
"There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a grown man cry", this is a phrase I heard a number of times growing up and only ever from women. And the reality for a man in revealing their vulnerability to another is that it can never be undone. We do open up or at least many of us do but we have learnt and or innately know to be very selective to who and when and often "test the waters" to gauge the reception first.
Yes because it spoils this fantasy and silent demand women have that men must be absolute objects of power. And never faulter. Be those imposing rocks where her emotional waves and tantrums and insecurities will crush and remain unphased.
I really appreciate being able to listen to these discussions. I almost feel guilty, as though I'm eavesdropping into a private conversation at points. However I think it genuinely helps us as women to get an insight into the male psyche and experience, so we can be better versed to help the men in our lives...Thank you. 💙
As a young man I appreciate you saying this. Such a big part of this issue for us is we don’t feel like women really care about our issues so just you trying to understand is a big deal. Thank you
What they say is not true. Look at INCELs. INCELs are crying. What do we tell them? Everyone tells INCELs to stop crying & exercise .... Start a project; go take online courses; go to University; start a business..... What is the point of crying!? Again, everyone would tell you to stop crying/complaining & do stuff.
This is one of the few manosphere-type RUclipsrs that nails it with his focus on science, references, guests and so on. It’s balanced and doesn’t blame women for all of men’s issues which is fantastic.
@@TheJoker-dj4yq I'm not sure what's gone on in your personal life to give you such a low opinion of women, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not a character in your story. I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by great men, I certainly have no desire to hurt any of them.
I listened to this one on spotify. This show keeps bringing new amazing people I didn't know about. The last six minutes are amazing. Now a big fan of Connor.
I've been really struggling lately to figure what I am, what I'm supposed to do, what I want to do as a man. It's been a challenge to reconcile my own natural organic sense of identity against the culture I was brought up in. This podcast really helped me feel better and hopeful and seen. Thank you.
Thank you, Chris for taking a bit of time to think and care about boys and men. For the last 50 years (unfortunately for me most of my life) our culture has hated on this demographic. I remember receiving hate from my elementary school teachers for the crime of being born male. When young men come to me for advice I tell them to be their best selves and good citizens. However, I make sure they are aware of the family court laws and our misandrist culture and to adjust their goals and expectations accordingly. I continue to be amazed that as soon as our culture has reasonably overcome the challenges of nature, such as starvation, that one gender has abandoned the other half. Stay safe and make wise choices men. Be strong and do not let our toxic culture get you down.
I don't blame young men for checking out of the dating and marriage scene. I honestly blame the outside world for leaving young men behind and men in general. You can't expect a person to figure out where they're going when you don't help them out. And when your hostile towards young men including pushing them to individuals like Andrew Tate,it's no wonder why some go black pill out of dejection from trying to do something about their situation. I feel for any young men who still are trying out there,cause the outside world ain't gonna make it easy on them.
Stop the cope. You're not "checking out". They not wanted and mentally fellating Andrew Tate is no a logical response to any problem. Enough with this nonsense of "hostility to young men". They refuse to improve or grow up and blame everyone else for their problems and do nothing to solve any problems.
At the end of the day we agree. This world is a cruel and grueling place no matter your sex. I do not envy men, I never have. I can only imagine the struggle to embody the ideal of masculinity in a world that stamps out the inherent traits that boys exhibit naturally, instead favoring and encouraging docility and agreeablility. The sad fact is, there are so few positive father figures out there who will model and exhibit traits worthy of emulation to their offspring because our entire society is so skewed that men can't just be men anymore. This is a lose lose scenario. As women, we are biologically inclined to choose men who exhibit protective and powerful qualities but it seems more and more that these traits are not being adopted by boys these days. Also more and more women havent got a clue about how to be a good wife, but also that comes down to the fact that we are forced more than ever to pull exactly the same weight as our male counterparts on top of the responsiblities that come with running a household and motherhood
Great conversation. It indeed seems to me, despite what modern women supposedly crave for - ie vulnerable, sensitive, "deconstructed" men -, that women can't handle men's insecurities and vulnerability. And by handle, I mean just listen really. As for being supportive...
Men need to go back to watching women, not listening to them. I'm in my early 40s now and the women I know are prone to emotion and wild decision making because of it. You can't base logic and reason off of that.
Yeah, the problem with women saying that they want sensitive men is that they are being deceitful with the wording of that statement. What they actually want is a strong man who is always sensitive to her wants and feelings and needs without needing her to reciprocate that emotional devotion, not because she doesn't want to be supportive of a man's problems but because she expects that he will be full filled and completely happy and satisfied by making sure that she is happy and satisfied.
@@beowulf_of_wall_st yes, I'd say that's true for some of the women I'm talking about. Most women aren't willing to admit these truths about female behavior, but I'm gay and happily married and I have nothing to lose at all by offering a bit of honesty to the men in this world.
Crying about your problems isn't bad because it's weak, it's bad because it doesn't do anything to solve them. I have cried in front of many people over the years, and it never made anything better. The only thing that helped was me figuring out what to learn from a given experience. I don't understand the assumed dichotomy of talking about your problems and not crying about them.
It's because there is a strong men vs women dichotomy, and the people pushing the idea that talking is the answer strongly pick one side. For me the answer was learning and applying all kinds of old philosophies until I began to understand what and how it worked.
Everyone needs a good cry, it physiologically calms you down, I like to think of it as burning off excess emotion, for times when hard exercise and other coping tools aren't enough. The bad is when you dwell in the "woe is me". Cry, grieve whatever needs to be grieved, take action.
I agree. Crying or opening up is cathartic for the sufferer. A human being needs to express certain emotions before they can move on. It's not the solution, but its a vital step necessary before moving towards the solution. But you have to take action. Because crying without action, will just cause a spiral into either depression or aggression. It's like the steps needed to not repeat the same mistakes. You 1st have to ADMIT you made a mistake before you can prevent repeating it.
It might not have made any'thing' better but it probably made 'someone' feel better, you. Maybe not consciously but on some level your psychology needed you to cry and just get it out there; like the comment above me said, burning off emotion. Buddhism encourages people to sit with emotions and observe them while meditating; sometimes I cry when I do this but I'm always grateful. It didn't fix the problem, it can't bring anyone back from the dead, but you are looking after YOU.
About the last point of finding mentors: my approach was to get into the trades. Ended up in carpentry, but any will be good. Solid work that can survive a crisis, and plenty of tough men around, without women interfeerence. Four birds with one stone: you get paid, you do physical labor, you learn usefull skills, and you learn 'manship'.
I always recommend young adults to join their states Conservation Corps, or to move to California for the CCC. Perfect program for young people to find mentors and adventure both while building skills, making money as well as plenty of opportunity.
I did the same. It was not until I worked in construction that I became a real man. Until thar point I had always been surrounded by female mentors giving the worst advice to a young man.
I work in construction, and there are some of the most toxic men I have ever met working in it. High rates of divorce, horrible marriages, drinking, drugs, etc. Add to that beat up bodies from being "manly" instead of smart, and it's one of the most depressing fields I can think of for young men to get into. I try to spot the smarter kids coming in and intercept them before they get all wrapped up in a heap of lies and dysfunction, but there's only so much you can do.
@@PetrosArgy Oh yeah, thats definetly true(i was 10 years in construction). Lot of game of thrones type of shit. But you can still learn a lot if you read between the lines.
I’m a 31 year old male who is plenty aware of my emotions. If being emotional is too feminine for some women then they weren’t the right one anyways. I’ll never apologize for being myself. I’m not going to pretend to be something I am not, take me or leave me.
Too many women hold the narrative to call a man insecure when he voices his feelings. One thing I’ve learned is that if a person you are dating is bringing out your insecurities and is unwilling to see that you become insecure when their actions are the cause, they are not for you. Keep looking for healthy if you are healthy and/or healing. You have to become the partner you want to be with and attraction will take care of the rest.
@@jonkybeats What I find wierd is the only women that have issues with men showing emotions are the ones who keep saying men need to show their emotions.
First of all, stoicism isn't emotional suppression it's understanding followed by acceptance of what and why you've been emotionally triggered. So it appears as though you're unaffected or suppressing but in reality you just have an excellent grip on understanding a situation and it no longer has the same impact on you. Another thing, if you have 5 high achievers and 1 low achiever in a team the high achievers will usually ostracize the weak on because he can potentially be a danger to them all.
It seems that the subject being discussed is always qualified as YOUNG men. I'm 42 and feel like I'm just as immersed and disaffected by these attitudes as any age group within the community of men in this country. I think statistics pertaining to male suicide reflect this in glaring fashion.
I’m in my 40’s as well. And you are spot on. There needs to be a clear message to young men that it doesn’t automatically get better as you age. As men we MUST take proactive steps to the right balance. And do it sooner rather than later.
I’m 36 and I think it DOES get better with age. The more I’ve lived the more I’ve understood that it’s all about accountability. If you’re not doing the right things over a prolonged period of time then of course you won’t get the results that you want. First you have to be clear in what you want out of life. A lot of people are so lost but it’s sad because life is pretty fucking straightforward if you pay attention/read books/ eat healthy enrich your mind instead of binging Netflix/porn etc
This podcast was such a revealation for me and something I’ve never heard addressed. My father was a POW in a German concentration camp when he was in his early 2o’s. He was evacuated and had his feet partially frozen when he was liberated. They sent him to a place in NJ to recover and then home with no support. His first child, my brother died. The rest of his life was a series of divorces, fleeting relationships and substance abuse. The only thing he ever told me about his experience were Hogan’s Hero’s humorous anecdotes, that because my grandfather was German and he had a rudimentary understanding of German, he was kept alive to translate. The other story was that he befriended a spider in the cage he was kept in. I had a superficial and resentful relationship with him as did my step siblings. He left my mother when I was seven. He was never cruel or intentionally mean, just unable to have a relationship. I had no understanding or empathy for him because of my anger at his abandonment. Understanding only came when I was much older. It has been a generational trauma in some ways. You gave me so much insight-thank you!! Maybe you could do a podcast on how to deal with the triggering Donald Trump’s comments-losers and suckers etc…can stir in children of POW’s. His authoritarian agenda to subvert democracy that many of our families had our childhood parenting fucked over for is so distressing.Sure some love him, but many might find it disturbing. It’s brought it to the forefront for me again
Part of being emotionally intelligent as a man is understanding who is capable, and who is not, of understanding and bearing male emotions. Hint: it's not women.
This is an important conversation for our New Age. I am a senior sigma male, borne of a father who fought thru WW2 and a mother, a very intelligent conscientious nurse. But I realise you can become toxic as a man very easily. I am always a failed perfectionist but admit to myself that I try far too hard. I sympathise with all young men today and I have gone mgtow now as I approach retirement, simply because I don’t fit in. I want to use my strength and intelligence to set an example as best I can. Love action, maybe. Men need their groups and hobbies, cooperation and competition. Women use hypergamy and monkey branching to select what they see as the best men. The depth of it all is tricky - we need more strong men for sure.
Last Friday I broke up after 7 years relationship with my Girlfriend. I was a "Yes-Man" that wanted to make her happy. Even if I didn't listen to my own wishes/needs. I was a secondary character in my own life. I was sad, got angry and felt so so miserable. I continued a job I hated just for "our" sake. I often had situation, when she wanted me to lead, but only if she liked my idea, otherwhise she ignored my attempts to gain confidence, to gain authority for my self and I hated it so much. I fell now way better then I did the last few years and I aim to stay true to my self in my next relationship.
@@Xairos84 I asked her out. The whole emasculation, bemothering aspect wasn't present at the beginning. I was a unreliable young man in my early 20's. So she tried to help me with directing and leading our life. The dynamic sadly stayed even when I chanced after a few years. But chancing a couple dynamic after years is hard. And I took too many easy routes during the last years. I embrace now the unknown and the uncomfortable.
This is a great conversation that needs to be had. We are many years away from the full scope of this masculinity crisis becoming apparent enough to enact societal change. Unfortunately, most women that are genuinely empathetic of men are those who have seen their brothers and sons struggle tremendously or end their lives. Otherwise, even most feminists look to men to be emotional rocks that they can lean on them. Vulnerability is not acceptable.
@@brianmeen2158 Exactly. I share the same experiences with my mother and sister. They simply had no basis of experience to give good advice to a young man or boy. Notice how so many women’s respond to what they find is attractive in a man is just “confidence”. They have very little conception of what that actually means and how you cultivate in a healthy masculine way.
Easy solution. Don't play the game. Be stoic. Frankly, I don't care what women "say." They don't even know how to articulate what they want. No use in listening to them.
As a man dating in his 30’s I cannot stress this enough for younger men…never, ever ,under any circumstance be vulnerable too or around a woman. At best it will dry their HooHaa up like the Sahara..at worst they will use it against you.
Aye, be open around your PEERS. Women are NOT your peers, at least not any woman you want to keep around. It’s always a test. They want to see if you’re weak enough to be vulnerable in front of them. The moment you are, they’re looking for their next Iron Man in the back of their minds.
I do not agree. Open and honest communication creates emotional intimacy and is essential for a good relationship. I would suggest opening slowly and see how your date reacts.
lmao women are people too and everyone talks about them as they were different species, if a person laughs at your vulnerability she/him/xer is a terrible person not a terrible woman/guy/woman or guy
In a debate during a high school feminism class one the girls got frustrated and said "you guys have oppressed us for thousands of years!" ... I said to her "We're both only 16!"
'oppressed', as in: everything hard done for them. Now they're 'liberated' by devoting their life to a company or the government. Hilarious and depressing at the same time. Historically, most men would've loved to stay at home taking care of the family, instead of doing long hours of physical labor.
Feminism was a hijacked movement from the start. Elites have been manipulating it to break up families, destroy roles, and atomize people who would otherwise work together, into antagonistic positions that only elites gain from.
Seriously hate that attitude like yeah women were oppressed for so long and still are in some ways but you can't blame every single man alive today for the sins of their ancestors that's really unfair like we're not responsible for what these other people did just because bad men exist doesn't mean all men are never allowed to have any problems ever as a cisgender white man it doesn't matter how liberal my views actually are and how much I try to support women and minorities I'll always get accused of being a bigot or told to shut up that I don't have any right to speak on issues because I'm too privileged and yet they don't see it as its own kind of bigotry
I feel that a lot of what we're dealing with, be it men's issues or just general societal issues, is an inflection point of modernity. Pretty much everything we have to deal is self-inflcted. Humans progress quickly but evolve slowly and we can't keep up.
I grew up without my Dad mostly, and was also pretty isolated socially. So many things I've had to learn later in life on my own or from peers cause I didn't have that older male guidance and role modeling. Came out alright but it definitely makes things easier getting that knowledge early.
I opened up to my girlfriend once, a few years ago…she is a good woman so she didn’t leave. But, she told me she got depressed afterwards and had nightmares
I've been with my husband almost two decades. I've seen him cry just a few times. He only cried for others. He was upset because he had done something that hurt me or one of the kids was hurt. He has never cried for his sake. He is my rock.
Very, very interesting - I still hide from my wife when I tear-up at a sad scene in a movie, for fear she'd think less of me. Of course, I'm not 'sad' for myself but a fictional situation. When she cries, I hug her firmly, so she knows I'm standing strong when she is weak even though I could be torn-up inside. It seems to work...
“women don’t want us to be vulnerable emotionally: they want to know that we know what is happening inside of us, that we can communicate what is happening inside of us, and that we have the resources around ourselves to support us. They don’t want to be responsible for it, or supporting us with it.” This was a golden nugget
That is being vulnerable, sharing is vulnerability as it leaves you open to attack or manipulation. But you are right that we don't want to be responsible for it in the same way a man is not responsible for my emotions etc.
Mark Manson’s book “Models” breaks it down beautifully. Vulnerability isn’t just about crying or emotional vomit. It’s about showing yourself unashamedly to the world, warts and all.
That's a foolish thing to do. You can show yourself unashamed to another person, warts and all - and that's called intimacy. And you do that when you know you can trust the other person to see you without dismissing, condemning, or taking advantage.
Some men are the most popular of their group cause they are the most loud, aggressive, extroverted, ruthless etc. Doesn't necessarily make you more skilled. Many capitalistically successful men are also not some kind of well rounded gigachad. I don't think that's how status hierarchies work.... .
My father told me that suppression is bad but that there is a time and place for emotional expression and vulnerability. This helped me once I actually stopped and reflected on it in my 20's. Of course, the women in my life generally taught me that If they are involved, the time is never and the place is nowhere. Men of the world have some problems but they can't solve all of it alone.
I'm convinced that men absolutely NEED to feel like they have a purpose. Every man, blue collar, white collar, ex navy seals, ex snipers, they all get suicidally depressed once they feel like they don't have a purpose.
The question is openness… openness to strength, courage, kindness, humor, heart, will, power ….. there is a deep misunderstanding about vulnerability which is an initial sense or sensitivity underneath a defense … both based in fear … the defense and the sense or fear of vulnerability… what is needed is an openness 🎉
Then let's use the clear word. Openness is free of the etymological baggage of the V-word. I suspect the V-word caught on because it was provocative, but it insults our intelligence to disregard its etymology: the ability to be wounded. The concept of wounding is inherent in the very word. "Openness" is neutral about that, and therefore a better word to use.
@@charlesstanford1310 i understand.. to go into the whole unfoldment and layers of vulnerability to openness more then a simple post …. For many walking through the door of vulnerability and facing and digesting one’s fears and hurts to true openness is considered a path of integration of strength with openness 💫
@@crystaldragonwoman With all due respect, this shows the problem as I see it: "vulnerability" should be a word with a clear definition, instead, people have taken it and blown it up into a nebulous mystical concept, like it's a new religion or something. It's an idol of ersatz logos, and I refuse to bow to it. I can face and digest my fears and hurts - I've been working on that since before this "vulnerability" spell started up, and I don't need it. I know something about spells, I find "vulnerability" to be a deeply flawed one, and I see no good reason to try to defend it.
Well said. 'Vulnerable' is a synonim of 'weak'. And weak people get taken advantage of. Once it has happened, you'll never trust anyone advicing you to be vulnerable/weak. But, as you say, being open requires way more strength than being vulnerable.
@@kc6810 being honest is being vulnerable as long as you care what others think. As long as you are dependant on others. As was being discussed in this thread, you can be honest by being open, without making yourself vulnerable. For men, stoicism is key.
1:22:02 this is key. We get the blame for past priviledges (which, often, are not so much priviledges in the first place, like the 'ability' to work that feminism has 'granted' on women), but we have been raised in single mom households, going to female dominated schools, consuming female driven media... It's just too much. We've done nothing wrong except, if anything, putting women on a pedestal (or rather, believing the women who put themselves on a pedestal).
See now ive grown up being the vunerable male and fallen to rock bottom from it. And now am struggling to show resilience and "do what needs to be done even when i dont want to". There seems a pitfall in both mentalities. The question is how to balance the two.
There are no pitfalls in being masculine. The only reason people criticise it is because they want you to be weak, so that they can compete against you. Women can't compete against a proper man.
Am completely different compared to Connor. Str8 A student without even trying hard, no interest in drugs, I feel that even the taste of beer kind of sucks, never understood why people enjoy alcohol. Life was never difficult for me I could always get any job I applied for or do whatever I set my mind to.. OUTSIDE of 3 things: belonging, having faith and success with women. My problem is I always end up questioning everything, end up being an outsider and I am unable to have faith in any system or belief other people seem to have, which antagonizes others. I seem to seek contrast and I question too much, am very cerebral. I do enjoy being an outsider tho and with age I found a new perspective regarding women through experience and looking at other people's relationships, comparing them to my own experiences. IMO contentment can not be found in the arms of a woman. Relationships will always have a foundation of conflict, so my relative mediocre success with women has ceased to be a problem for me and I started to increasingly see it as a blessing in disguise. I can always support my brother and offload the burden of family legacy onto him since he prefers to just live and not think too deeply about things anyway. I like to think that I understand women and consequently I find it hard to love them outside of sexual attraction which never really drove me anyway. Once I escaped the Disney indoctrination in my early 20s the appeal outside of sex was gone.
Based. And correct. Also, I can scientifically and philosophically answer most if not all of your questions regarding God. additionally the Bible says that it is better NOT TO marry. And the Bible exposes fefail nature. But most won't teach you the truth about it all.
I'm thinking women would be interested (amazed?) at this conversation - and it brings to mind the question: is there a female version of Chris Williamson running a podcast that that does the same for women as Chris does for men? I'd like to listen to healthy women turning their own analytical acumen back upon themselves.
One of my best and closest friends took his own life a few years ago. He went through a divorce, lost his job, house and savings. He convinced us all he was OK. We wanted him to talk about it. We all had him out for dinner but he just laughed at us a said he was fine - he was not. Two weeks later he was gone. He fooled us all.
My girlfriend told me a few weeks ago that she wants me to be more vulnerable with her, and tell her more about what I am struggling with. I know it is a trap, because if I were to really do so and "open up" to her, she would lose all respect for me in an instant. If I do have a problem I talk to her about, I always make sure I tell her how I am working through it and what solutions I am coming up with to take action to solve it.
Great stuff, Chris. Boy, Connor struck a chord 28:30. Actually, he's being kind to women with his explanation. I've found a very significant segment of the female population actually detests the vulnerable man. They see him as weak and emotionally impotent.
A great discussion, that confirmed a few observations that I have made over the years. Dad was captured in Egypt and spend 3.5 yrs in prisoner of war camps in Italy and Germany. He came back a bit broken - heavy drinking as all the men from those experiences did, but I felt for many years that a big element was that life was just so pale, after the war. A life of real purpose replaced by something that was too safe and routine. He taught me and my brother as well as he could what being a man was and male behaviour. I feel blessed that we went to Christian Brothers for secondary, so we had that all male influence in our teens, which I think was a good grounding. I have seen the change in male spaces in my life time. I started at the YMCA in my final years of school and have gone to the gym since - over 50 yrs, and to some extend lament the change from a male space to a mixed one where behaviour is tempered for women. Interestingly most guys have no interaction with the women, they spend time and train with the guys they know. Good content, keep up the good work Chris.
I also found great value in the "negative roll model" while growing up. There were a very few older men that I knew that were worth trying to model myself after. The greater percentage were men who taught me by example of what not to do or how not to be.
Wow, this episode gave me so much insight into my own thoughts and feelings. From comparing myself to other men to my relationships with my parents. I don't think I would've ever been able to connect these dots if it wasn't for this conversation. Amazing work guys, thank you 🙏🏽.
I can only speak for myself in saying that I do not keep things bottled up inside because I am uncomfortable saying them. I tend to naturally be a rather candid person. I keep them bottled up because there isn’t anyone I feel safe expressing these thoughts to. Brings up the topic of loneliness in men. I don’t have any close male friends. I did have one and about twelve years ago he was sent to jail for…let’s just say a crime involving a minor. I ended our friendship when he told me he was innocent even though I had no doubt he wasn’t (long story). I have had a hard time trusting other men ever since
I know this is about men - but it’s so interesting to listen to a couple of men talking about women’s experience of life, talk and issues but seemingly thinking they’re different- I’m hearing more common experiences than different
Before watching: Vulnerability is good, but it's not the same as being weak or a coward. Being vulnerable is things like not being okay with the suffering of the world and wanting to make a difference, it's the pain in my eyes when my partner is having a bad day, it's the tone in my voice when I talk to a child who has done something wrong, it's the way I let my partner in when things aren't going well. Being vulnerable makes us stronger and brings us closer to the people we love, given it's done the right way.
The word "vulnerability" does not deserve defense. Does that make sense? @jock-of-ages73 has it right: you're describing needed traits and behaviors, but there's no need to bend over backwards trying to duct-tape them to the V-word.
I feel so broken. I’m ready to leave this earth. But I am grateful I had all the experiences I’ve had the last 31 years. I’ve tried everything for depression and anxiety and this world feels so broken and my mind so damaged that I want to leave and let this burden lift. Do you think society can help with this?
Not a dig on Chris, but I love how people are re-discovering things like "We fall to the lowest common denominator. Five people on a team that work hard and one that doesn't, surely they will raise that one up, but they don't." . . . yeah, it's almost like "One bad apple spoils the bunch."
Hey Chris love the podcast. Would love to have a podcast dedicated to shadow work (Carl Jung) since I think this helps both men and women on their personal development journey. Also this would be a slighty different focused topic. Like this comment for him to see!!
I have come to learn that no matter how happy, how depressed, how wealthy or how poor I am that life doesn't care and is going to happen no matter what. So instead of caring about dreams of wealth or happiness I just have a "bucket list" of things that have to happen before I die. I have two so far: out live my father and be out of debt. My emotional state does not play a role in achieving those things.
For anyone confused, as a man, you can only show emotions and talk to other men/therapists. You don’t talk about it with any female ever. They lose respect and dry up because you’re not emotionally stable and can’t take on challenges. You’re supposed to be Superman in their eyes or they will find someone who is. Only other men know the challenges of men. Women who get into clubs for free and get can have sex with almost anyone they want don’t understand the male struggle. The old saying goes, no one cares what a woman thinks, and no one cares what a man feels.
Men should talk to a male therapist if they are contemplating eating their gun. Other than that, even speaking to another man about issues can backfire. Keep it to yourself
Best conversation I've heard in a very long time. A strong woman doesn't want to be her partner's mother. Sexual attraction understandably diminishes to zero.
My family was deeply scarred by war, and the poison drip of unresolved, unaddressed mental and emotional trauma has bled down from my grandfather, grandmother and father to me. They lost their country, loved ones, and everything they had, and carried deep burning anger as a result that they unintentionally lashed me with. I also have suffered much from being neuroatypical. That created my own boulder on my shoulder that I had to eventually let go of. The alternative was my own demise. The result is I am a man who had to do his best to raise himself, I might as well had been an orphan. I have a tough time relating to others, especially women. I am now approaching the end of my own life, alone except for two siblings snd my mother. It is likely they will die before I do. I hate this society's snarky, sarcastic attitude towards men who are disadvantaged through no fault of their own.h
I want to say. I'm now 29. I first had my test checked at 23 because of low physical energy and low libido. My test came back at 383 as a fucking 23 year old. The doctor told me I was within normal ranges and wouldn't lift a finger to help. Physical training feels terrible for me, but I have been pushing myself to try to get my test up naturally. I had it checked a year ago at 28, and it came back at 402. The doctor still won't help, and I have dam near lost all hope. You are lucky they at least did something for you. I am stuck trying OTC remedies that do not seem to be doing much.
I lived for 20 years in Edmonton, Alberta. The misery and hopelessness of existence, pretty much permeates everybody who lives in that province. 😂 That’s why I moved to British Columbia and have never been happier.
I completely disagree, there is so many more successful men around alberta to rub shoulders with. There is also so much opportunities in Alberta. I live in bc and work in Alberta
@@jasonmoxley465 you actually kinda prove my point. I never said there wasn’t plenty of opportunity and oil money in Edmonton and you don’t live there either, your happily living in B.C just like myself. Anyone that has to live through eight months of winter it’s bound to have a bit of a chip on the shoulder wouldn’t you agree? 😂
Yeah, everyone has thoughts about who should initiate any given sexual encounter. And I agree that there is a double standard when women are not in the mood vs when men aren't. Women almost always take the "rejection" of sex as a rejection of desire for her and men are expected by women to not take the same rejection personally. I've never understood these double standards. I don't know if that is because I'm a lesbian or not, but I definitely agree that it exists. I'd like to thank the both of you for a very interesting and intelligent conversation. 🙂
@@charlesstanford1310 yes it is a crappy double standard. But I think it is the male habit of casual sex that may be the root cause of it. A man is capable of sleeping with the same woman repeatedly without developing feelings for her, but women just can't do this on average. So to a woman sex is connected to love and for a man it is connected to getting off. So to a woman being rejected sexually is a rejection of love as well as sex, and that isn't true for a man, generally speaking. None the less I find the interaction between men and women confusing and perplexing, to say the least.
I think a lot of men misunderstand Stoicism. It’s not about suppression, it’s about acceptance. When you are truly Stoic you aren’t feeling intense emotions on the inside but lying about them on the outside, you are actively integrating how you feel into your being, and as a result you are in control. You don’t need to display your feelings to signal to others how you feel because you’ve already accepted how you feel to yourself. You don’t need to feel validated for your feelings because you you can validate yourself. You are vulnerable to yourself, and your heart and mind are pure and you can speak the truth because you have nothing to hide. Men’s internal struggle comes from being ashamed of how they feel, inadequate, bad, insecure, envious, lustful, hateful, sad, weak, etc. but they got the wrong message all along: there’s nothing wrong with how you feel, it’s what you do and say that matters. When you feel a certain way, just acknowledge that you feel it and be okay with it. You don’t have to tell anyone if you don’t want to. The dissonance comes from hating the way you feel and needing to tell someone to feel reassured or validated, or by activating coping mechanisms or self-medicating to make the feeling go away. Talking can work as well but only with someone with whom you have extreme trust. But you don’t have to… you can just be okay with how you feel, you have nothing to be ashamed of, NOBODY knows how you feel unless you want them to, and you don’t have to do a damn thing about your feelings, you can just feel them and be okay with feeling them. Once you’ve accepted your own feelings you can feel free to talk about them without the emotions attached that make it unnattractive, you can be “vulnerable” by showing how well you handle your emotions not by showing how desperately you need somebody else to handle your emotions for you.
Love your comment! Not only because it makes sense but because it is universal. Clingny women that ask their partners to resolve their issues for them is also unatracive...self acceptance and taking pride and care of who you are and who you want to become is healthy for any individual's development. Thanks for sharing 👍
Men are generally very practical, we need plans we can put into action to solve the problem. Venting about things can only go so far, but then we need real plans to follow in detail
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Hello you beauties. Access all episodes 10 hours earlier than RUclips by Subscribing on Spotify - spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - apple.co/2MNqIgw. Here’s the timestamps:
00:00 The One Rule of Men
09:39 Why Is So Much Expected of Men?
13:26 Men’s Roles in Competition & War
23:14 The Double Standard of Aggression & Vulnerability
33:39 The Huge Rise of Internet Men’s Advice
45:12 Vacancy of Father Figures & Friends for Boys
58:19 How Does Fatherlessness Actually Impact Young Men?
1:06:54 Vulnerability Around Men Discussing Sex
1:15:15 Increasing Testosterone Improve’s Men’s Capacity
1:25:36 Advice to Men Who Want to Open Up More
1:32:30 Where to Find Connor
Chris, thank you so much for this conversation. I appreciate this. Respect. Sending love and blessings from South Africa 🇿🇦 ❤
I'm not sure if you'll be having more conversations like this, but I hope so. These are valuable, and I didn't even know how much of this I didn't know, and I am very grateful to finally have some clarity about a few things. Keep well ✌️
When you do give up the drugs, be careful, your brain needs time to come to balance.
Thanks for your work Chris, the bit you did about how you naturally increased your testosterone would be really useful as a video subject or maybe another format , I'm 55 by the way and I sense mine is low but don't want meds 😊
45:05 You mean *SINGLE MOTHER HOMES and SINGLE MOTHER BEHAVIOR*
Men aren't taking the blame on this one, no more of that nonsense. *IYKYK* 💊
58:19 You mean *SINGLE MOTHER HOMES and SINGLE MOTHER BEHAVIOR*
Men aren't taking the blame on this one, no more of that nonsense. *IYKYK* 💊
I was 11 years old when my father died. I'm now 80. Looking back, it's clear to me that not having him around was the biggest reason for the lack of direction in my life.
I know it was a long time ago but I’m sorry. I lost my father when I turned 18 and even 15 years later, I’ve struggled to keep my compass pointing north. I’m not a f up but there have been many times where I needed a father figure to point me in the right direction instead of winging it or asking someone else.
Dad died at 14, and same. Tbf it could be the affect of the death itself on our psyche too.
Check out Blood Meridian this is talked about in the book. I have similar upbringing.
My dad died when I was 14, but even before he didn’t teach my brothers and I how to be a man. So we were raised by mom and basically we’re dysfunctional and weak. I married a dominant wife who treated me like a doormat.
Congrats for being introspective. REINCARNATION is real, you'll/I will be back...even better if we raise up to the next level! Cheers man
Men can vent to other men that they are very close with. Your best friend or your dad. Venting is good for your mental health. But after you have gotten your feelings out, it's time for action. Take steps to do what you need to improve your life, your situation, and your mental space. You can't just only talk your way out of depression or a bad place in life. You have to DO something about it.
EXACTLY.
It's crucial to grieve. After that, action action action.
I’ve never had a problem giving my best friends my most vulnerable thoughts and feelings. We still competed. But never with each others trusted shit and when we were young we competed in a way to make us better for when we competed together against other groups of men. Which we always won. Lol
They can. But more often they don’t or they only give very superficial access to what’s really going on. The man listening often isn’t really listening, he’s looking to fix his mates problem.
Not saying this is always the case. Some men are amazing listeners but more often than not we aren’t and women have sorted need out much more effectively.
@@Returntotheworld Agreed. Men can be more fixers than listeners for other men.
@@Returntotheworld if the problem is solved then there's no more need to dwell on it
It's interesting to see scientists and academics slowly realize that we act certain ways because of biology and necessity, not because the "patriarchy planned it this way."
Gay men, despite being biologically identical to straight men, are much more free to be vulnerable and express emotions and very often do (gay guys have 0 qualms about crying in public, for instance). This is because these are quite obviously social taboos and not biological. We hold different types of people to different standards because of social norms.
@@rantsofmyzen Well it's definitely true to say without the invention of property we'd be barely better than knuckle dragging chimps lol. I'm not sure about the rest though.
To me it often feels like they are trying a forced evolution ahead of its time. It's not to say there can never be a time in the far future where all men and women are empathic , kind, vulnerable yet strong people - but as long as scarcity exists that will never be the case cause somebody will have to jump over somebody else. Ironically if the left wants to win - they should be solving nuclear fusion and climate change lol
Neither person here is a scientist, nor an academic, though.
@SamvanGinkel this isn't the only podcast or paper I've seen that supports this discussion. Also, you don't think they just made this shit up, do you?
Im 16, My dad was in operation iraqi freedom, his dad was in the Vietnam war and with each generation there’s been a war. With that comes trauma and i can definitely see it in my dad at times. He’s made it his lifes purpose to stop this inheritance of trauma and i respect him for that.
Don't join the Army and don't go to foreign wars.
I’m from at least four generations (including myself) of fighting men, four different wars. It does leave scars, but it doesn’t define us entirely. It’s just part of the lessons learned by the worst the world can offer. It’s not an excuse to just curl up and die. It’s an experience to be learned from. You bear your scars, and you keep going. No man should die without a few scars to prove their worth. If you can bear war and service, you can bear anything.
That which does not kill you truly makes you stronger, but you have to WANT it to. You have to work for it. Surrendering entirely to suffering is death. Recognizing and bearing your suffering is experience. Doing something about it is purpose and achievement.
You can always level up. What you level up into is up to you, but you can always push for it, even if slowly and in small ways.
@@scionofdorn9101 yeah and thats what he’s raised me and my brothers on, to be strong and not to let our circumstances define us as people.
Young man, it sounds like he's doing a good job.
As a son and a father, the only thing I ever hope for is that my son knows enough of my life and decisions to be able to respect me also.
hey i'm just wondering if you're able to objectively acknowledge that the USA wasn't fighting for "freedom" in the Middle East.
Unfortunately people like your dad and grandfather were brainwashed into thinking it's about "freedom", when in reality they were used as pawns in order to make more money for the elite at the top of Western society.
The amount of damage and murder and lives lost in Middle Eastern countries due to the USA's continuous war crimes and infiltration is without a doubt of larger magnitude than anything Americans have ever had to face. I'm not saying any of this to try to be insulting, just to hopefully get you to understand that an American life isn't somehow better or more valuable than a non-American life (replace American with Western or white if it helps the overall message)
As a man nobody's coming to save you. Society will let men crumble and fall before any help is offered. You must save yourself. This is taking your life in your own hands. I highly recommend starting small and building upon good habits. Starting with exercising 30 minutes a day, 5 to 6 days a week.
I’m already a gym rat I need help with all the other stuff
@@johndoe-fq7ez the other stuff like friendship and relationships just takes social skills. Social skills being something that needs practice. Join clubs, reach out to friends, hangout in person, try and be a little bit confident. Career wise, we all know we can't get further without some education/ training. Take online classes. Take community college classes. Train and learn in a specific field or practice until you get a degree or a certificate or some experience. It's tuff out there. Life is a competition. Everything takes effort, patience, time, consistency. Things won't just flip around in a day or 2. It will take months and years of building yourself up.
Can we flip the script around about this? Think of "nobody is coming to the rescue" as an implicit societal stress test. If you undertake it and come out ok (note: you can even lose and still come out ok), then you are that much stronger on the other side. As long as you don't lose your life over small losses/setbacks, you get to live to fight another day. It's all going to be ok.
I heard someone say a closed mouth doesn't get fed. It fucked my head up.
@@HarderTime89 the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
36:38 "So you hate your life because your wife took the kids and half of your net worth". I live in the UK and my wife took 70% of my net worth despite us only having 1 kid and her earning more than me. Its good to finally hear someone talking about this particular manosphere topic on Chris' podcast. And its not just taking the kids, its all the years of child support and heating co-parenting that follows too.
Sorry to hear that man!
I agree. I wish Chris would tackle this topic.
Might examples like these be why so many men don’t want to marry?
These laws are downright abusive to men, and the men are on strike.
@@stevec3526 Yes. Men don't expect outside help so they make the rational decision to avoid risk.
This is why I don't believe in legal marriage, we can marry before God if you want, marry in the law sounds like a terrible insurance policy
I think I had an epiphany about halfway through this video;
All my goals and the things I aspire to, become learned, become skilled, become wise, be better in the ways I can, it's all in a chase to become the positive male role model I never had growing up. I've been thoroughly shown what _not_ to do, now it's up to me to figure out what to do right instead.
holy Shit same dude
Same here bro. I was depressed as hell for a long ass time in life not really doing anything with myself and feeling like a loser because I couldn't get girls. At some point, I decided to make a change. I devoted myself to finishing school and improving myself in every aspect because I realized that my life was my responsibility and no one else's. At some point along the way, I realized I was becoming the kind of man I wish I'd had as a father.
Literally one semester away now from achieving my Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering while working as an intern in the engineering department of an Aircraft Supply company. It was not easy to get this far, but no matter what I kept pushing myself forward because I never want to return to the sad, pathetic boy I used to be.
Mind blown, same reflection here
We definitely prefer to hear how we overcome struggle not how we fail at it.
Conservatism. That's how you do it. Really simple answer.
I respect the guest, but Not my favorite episode.
@@brianmeen2158 we dont have any organized institutions to look out for our interests. theres all kinds of womens rights orgs and womens shelters and special assistance for women in poverty or single mothers, but we don't have any equivalent institutions that look out for men. we have to develop a sense of collective support for each other as men. we have to understand each other, put aside some of our ideas about competitiveness and replace them with solidarity. a bro code, if you will.
Regarding the vulnerability, I believe there are two kinds of it: vulnerable strong and vulnerable weak. Women want the first one. Vulnerable strong is a feeling: Im lost, I feel like shit, but I will handle this. Vulnerable weak is: Im lost, I feel like shit, I dunno what to do (desperate). It correlates with what they have been saying
I'd be interested to look at that study in the UK that said that 92% of male suicides were in therapy. Can you cite this?
It does mean therapy causes suicide it is biased towards already mentally ill people because if you are very mentally ill with several things at the same time it's more likely you will be in therapy. And if you got big bad traumas and start therapy they will come up
I read a quote (maybe it was Churchill lol). A woman would rather you die on your horse, than fall off. Played it over & over in my head for weeks before I understood the meaning.
"I like what you had to say…but my wife and daughters? They’d rather see me die on top of my white horse than watch me fall off. You say you want us to be vulnerable and real, but c’mon. You can’t stand it. It makes you sick to see us like that."
From a man speaking to Brené Brown a "Shame" researcher.
You will likely be able to find her Ted Talk where she shares the experience of this conversation.
You could take the same sentiment farther back and remember the Spartan mantra - "With your shield, or on it."
Quite apropos to this podcast, in the movie "300" that line is delivered by a woman.
@@MrVvulfno man, that's an actual spartan quote. The movie simply made it popular.
@@hitandruncommentor I'm aware. Of course the best Spartan qutoe was their reply to Philip of Macedon's threat - "If".
@@MrVvulfthat one is good but I prefer “Come and take them”
Great point about men coming back from war.
My dad came back from ww2 only wanting to settle down and have a family and home
It was only much later in life my mum told me about the nightmares
Only once - when he got drunk at my brother’s wedding did he out of the blue say, “They just don’t know what it was like.”
"Does The World Actually Want Vulnerable Men?" --- no... but as a man, I wish women would be more honest about that, as opposed to lying & saying they want vulnerable men & then after he cries, she dry texts him for months, slowly starts taking longer to answer back his calls & texts before eventually ghosting him & then leaving him for a guy who is cold, stoic, never cries & never shows emotion.
Women speak emotions, and men speak empiricism.
Just use that information to your advantage . When speaking to them, lead them to an emotional journey. Leave empiricism on the side until talking and interacting with male friends.
@@villaespesa1 "Women speak emotions, and men speak empiricism." --- in other words, never listen to what women say, because almost all of what they say will be how they feel & none of what they'll say will be based in truth facts or empirical data.
"When speaking to them, lead them to an emotional journey." --- i'm not leading them on shit lol. i only deal in terms of reality. if women don't care about how men feel, idc about how women feel either.
"Leave empiricism on the side until talking and interacting with male friends." --- i'm not going to allow a woman to decide how i think, talk & move through life. i'm going to continue to think empirically & if she doesn't see the value in the gendered differences between me & her & how we think & act, then she can kick rocks.
@@villaespesa1: Overly simplistic. All people have emotions. Humans are not rational. We can organize our thoughts and actions rationally but even when doing so we are still experiencing emotions. The physicist who is doing vector calculus to determine when a theoretical wormhole will collapse is still emotionally invested in doing the work and even in the result of the work. The difference is in how we emote and process emotion, not that we operate on empiricism.
@asdfdc1946 I hear you, bud.
It can be exhausting, I've been there and lost my patience many times LOL but we're different.
There are some exceptional women who are reasonable, who have common sense and logic, but keep in mind that even those are women at the end of the day.
@maxwell flitton:
"They say one thing but want the exact opposite." --- facts. which is why when women talk, men have to listen through what she's saying... not listen to the actual words, but read between the lines & decipher the bullshit to get to the actual subtext. because what she says is almost never what she actually means.
"Another thing I've noticed is that men who are in long term relationships get more silent as the years go by. It's because what they say gets used against them later on." --- facts. with women, men start at 100 & the more he says, she docks off points & looks for reasons to discard him. women do this because they have so many options. this is why women often cut off good men for making a single awkward joke that doesn't land on a date etc.... they're looking for reasons to get rid of you. & even after a woman has chosen a man for a long term relationship, he's still subject to the woman's internal mate selecting process. even in a marriage, her hypergamy is still causing her to hold his words against him so she can rule him out & replace him for a better partner. it never ends.
"Over time it's just not worth talking most of the time. If the man expresses an emotion that the woman doesn't like, then that's also an issue for an argument." --- exactly. women's hypergamy is constantly looking to rule men out for ANY reason. make a crude joke? you're out. show too much emotion? you're not stoic, so therefore not a good protector, not masculine enough, you're out. women do this subconsciously & don't even realize they're doing it.
this is why red pill dudes always say silence & absence is the best strategy to deal with women. because they're always looking for ways to rule you out.
The missing piece IMO is that in the past families were close to other families.... the women would talk and then relay the struggles of the other man to their man.... the good men would reach out to the struggling man to help..... that is missing in today's individualistic society.
Selfishness is the rule of the day now, and it WILL destroy us if we let it.
I'm facing open heart surgery in less than 2 weeks and opening up about my concerns and mixed emotions never felt better despite the popular belief that men shouldn't show vulnerability. Speaking about all that made me feel stronger because of the amount of support and love I am receiving...
Men, don't be afraid to speak up!
Good luck with the surgery!
@@austinhughes3506 thank you 😊
@@j.davila4523 Thank you
@t.c.4321 Thank you sir!
How does it help.
If I will say "dont worry & dont be hysterical", you will feel better?!
Or you want me to tell you that the Doctors are idiots.
They cant even tell a fat person to excersize.
They are as stupid as everyone else & they cant even tell you the truth.
My dog has heart murmurs.
Enlarged heart.
I gave up on doctors & put him on herbal medication.
I am giving him Hawthorn & Motherwort ... for his heart.
He is doing great.
Better than the regular medication with the side effects.
*
My point that I cant make you feel better. Nobody can.
All I can say is Good luck.
Connor is a mensch. He gave me my first big break on his podcast. Glad to see he’s thriving and connected to Chris now in this great interview.
Thank you, thank you Connor Beaton for understanding a woman like me! I grew up in a family that did not show their emotions and only saw my father cry for the first time 8 years ago when my mother died. I was 37 at the time. I have been called cold hearted by many partners because I don't know how to deal with a high level of emotion. I have been blessed/cursed with a logical mind so I don't use a lot of energy on things that take away from my peace. Don't get me wrong, I am a perimenopausal woman, I defiantly have my moments... I am willing to accept that I am just not going to be the emotional one in a relationship and that is ok, I am willing to work with a man allowing them their space to process the issue. But, men don't seem to understand my Spock like mind at all and nor are they willing to understand. Sigh. It was such a relief to hear you speak to this! And, thank you Chris for being you!
Most men learn as small children that any show of weakness will result in a savage response from the girls around them. Other boys might tease them, and make life harder, but its the girls who are really savage. Sadly it takes most boys much longer to figure out that the only reason people other than their parents, and possibly their siblings, care about them if for they can get out of them. Comedians, like Chris Rock, have honest monologues about these issues. Most of society seems too afraid of the harsh reality of human nature to be really honest about it.
The danger is also that standing up against or becoming emotional out of hurt from bad treatment and abuses is also labeled as weak, victim mentality, and unmasculine. Human nature is very harsh and quite destructive.
@@kc6810 It kind of depends on what kind of boy you are. I was a sensitive wimp, so I got savage mockery from both sexes.
"Girls mature early" yes they do. Into the horrible modern humans they are told to become.
@@kc6810 A boy will beat you. This hurts physically right then and there, and maybe you'll get a bruise, or a scar. Later in life, you can tell your friends about the fight you got into.
A girl will gossip about your weakness. She will lose respect for you, and gain respect for the boy who hit you. He can dominate you, but you can't dominate him. Bullied boys only ever recover when they transition to a new school, where their reputation and respect haven't yet been established.
This is how it works throughout your whole life, and the sooner you learn, the better. If you get beaten, beat the guy back, and more severely than he beat you. If you don't, you're gonna have a really, really hard time, and never find your footing.
@esh3325 because a emotionally unstable man is dangerous. Also useless. It is the reality we have to work with.
This talk was one of my favorite of yours', Chris. You and Connor conceptualized these issues with so much clarity, fairness, equanimity (not leaning into rage against gynocentrism, etc) and humor. As a fellow Albertan, I resonate with much of Connor's story. I would like to add that I think the issue of fatherlessness is deeper than just physical presence/absence.
The most significant harms of fatherlessness are certainly in homes where the father is gone physically. However, the ecosystem of many homes where the father is present can still be dysfunctional. Anyone who has grown up in suburbs in the western world (whether Canada, US, Australia or UK) will recognize how many dads retreat from the life of the home and are not present emotionally/psychologically.
I'm not going to fully blame this on gynocentrism/feminism, there's no big social issue that one gender causes alone. Clearly the rise of 3rd wave feminism and the rising anti-male sentiment is a part of this. I first noticed it when Oprah was super popular, how these ideas of "women are always right", "happy wife, happy life". And this was echoed in how all sitcoms had the bumbling buffoon dad's, literally every sitcom in the 90's. What I saw in the suburbs was that wives/moms seems to become more and more domineering, while simultaneously dad's were retreating, stepping back. Usually the Dad's escape to the garage, or the basement, their friend's garage/basement or the pub. My dad was like this.
Again, it's not just on women. Men play a part in retreating and disengaging, though I fully understand why many men acted in this way. The dynamic I'm describing seemed to be the case for at least 3/4 of the parents I encountered. And these trends played off each other. As men retreated more, wives/moms tend to become angry that the dad is retreating and caring less. Talking to older women about this, they often say that they would start arguments as a way to get the man to care more, become more engaged. However, it often had the opposite effect, men retreating more. Again, I can understand both sides. In terms of the male side of this, I always think of that African proverb: "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth." This is how many boys and men now feel, I believe.
For the women, I can understand their anger as well. All of us were forced into an economic situation where both parents usually have to work. I mean, practically speaking, families could get by with less and not have both parents working. However, in the suburbs in the western world, it's naive to overlook the very strong cultural influence of "keeping up with the jones'", which is how suburban living leads people to behave. Each family is more or less isolated, neighbors are not really as involved as helpful as the storybook type of suburbs (like the neighbor Wilson in Home Improvement, and again, even he always spoke through the fence, which is symbolic for the isolation of suburbs). Given all of this, most families succumb to the pressure to keep up with neighbors, having new cars, giving your kids the things that other kids have.
Given all of this, the problem is much more one of both genders and both parents struggling in a changing world where isolation is increasing, where our social institutions are all crumbling (the strength of marriages, families, relationships, communities, schools etc, all are getting weaker), and where economic pressures and mental health concerns just keep rising. With this context in mind, it makes sense why Dad's retreated and why women became more domineering.
All of that to say, households with Dad's who have retreated in this way will also show signs of fatherlessness. Often these households feature little in the way of the mom and dad approaching family issues on a united front. Resentment is always at a fever pitch, the kids learn themelves to isolate. The whole family might all be in the living room, but when they are all on their own devices, you might as well be in separate countries. When dad's are not present emotionally/psychologically, even though they are present, boys will struggle more in their development than boys whose Dad's were fully present.
And not just in the households with defeated Dad's, when we look at our communities and institutions, it's very clear that men have retreated. Regarding the pandemic and how western countries made many spectacular errors, Janice Fiamengo (who you should absolutely have on your show, Chris) wrote a brilliant article on substack titled "I hope the future isn't female". In this article she talks about how the retreat of men and masculine perspectives from decision making was a big factor in why Canada (similar in other western nations) became so hysterical in the face of the virus. Even though men still occupy many decision making positions, the ones who are there often have to jetison their masculine ways of thinking if they want to retain that job. There are so many males in leadership positions who have no trace whatsoever of a backbone and who bend to females and minorities at every turn.
Males and females have worked so well for centuries and millennia because of how we complement each other. Females are more risk averse and men can help to balance this, whereas men are often more risk-seeking and females balance that. Just one example. Now that there are more females in decision making roles, and now that female perspectives reign surpreme, we see the imbalance. What were the pandemic blunders if not unmitigated hysteria? All the fear mongering from media and gov't and how we closed schools for up to 2 years, despite the data being crystal clear in Summer of 2020 that healthy kids were not at serious risk from the virus, nor of spreading the virus.
I work in the youth mental health field at a kid's hospital. Since Summer 2020, the admissions for su1c1de attempts, overdoses, severe eating disorders, psychosis and more have shot through the roof. It's still bad and only going to get worse. The school closures were an example of coddling/safteyism, hysterical overprotection that lead to net harms. This did not happen in countries were males were more present in decision making. Not just physically present but emotionally/psychologically present. And the kids I work with often say how they feel like there are "no real adults around", no one wanting to enforce boundaries, teach responsibility, discipline, provide structure, etc. These are typically things that men provide, even just through example. But the presence of males and masculine perspectives in society is now so lacking.
In my experience - when women say "I want you to be vulnerable with me" - they are actually saying "Tell me how wonderful I am or how important I am to you!". That is the only thing they are capable of digesting.
They are saying "give me chinks in your armor I can pierce"
Who hurt you, lol?
Women don't really want "vulnerability" from men. They want men to cater to their needs. So maybe they want men to be vulnerable to them, but invulnerable to the rest of the world (similar to the Samson and Deliliah story).
@@LoLchilled09 reality, i assume. Good luck with your life, buddy.
Women attribute their own meanings to words (womanese), since Women lean on their emotions to make decisions, they give their own meaning to words depending on how that word makes then feel.
Unlike men, who use language to describe, that's why language is descriptive because men created it.
This is probably true for most men, but I built a friend circle that supports each other, and shares our vulnerabilities. We are married or single., but all face the same problems.
I am almost 50, but even when we were 15 we shared our feelings at times
Talk to other men, find friends you can share with, we all need it.
To be honest, I never compare myself to other men as far as 'status', I laugh at the ones who try too hard.
I long for that. That sounds like a huge win
Hey Carpo, a long time sub. Good to see you here! Looks like I’ll be binging your videos today 😂
Women love our pain and our ability to endure it so long as it’s silent. But women hate it once that same pain gains a voice and speaks a language that she considers inconvenient.
They're Machiavellian creatures to the core, the way he explained _how_ females want you vulnerable, meant they only want it in a way that _benefits_ them, same as it ever was.
Yep. Just look at how society responds if any man dares say they have it rough.....
Nah - they want us to be their mountains.. Like their strong dad, when they were pre puberty.. ANY weakness is like the tiny scratch on a glass table - an indication of risk of breaking under pressure.. Stiff upper lip, as they say in England.
BOOM!
Yup, they love their slaves stoic and most importantly, quiet. After all, if YOU’RE talking, you’re not listening to THEM talk, and that they simply will not bear.
@5:00 onward really hit deep. I almost didnt finish high-school for the same reasons despite being highy academically gifted/capable. As a result of my lack of direction and discipline at that stage, my life has since been largely driven by other people. Currently in my Mid 20's and ive relegated myself to shoveling dirt and essentially wasting away at a construction site in the humid, muddy swamp, that is Florida. I feel so out of place here. There was a time when I was receiving multiple academic scholarships for the top schools in the entire Carribbean region and I was expected by my peers and family to be highly successful and now ... im just here. I feel resentful towards myself for not being more disciplined earlier on when the bricks for my current life were being placed. Im resentful towards society for allowing this to happen to me. However, im fully aware of the cognitive dissonance that statement lives in and understand it comes from a disappointment in myself. Everyday I wonder if this is all my life will ever be.
Your last few sentences hit home, thank you for putting into words what I've felt but didn't know how to articulate. Thank you for your honesty, kind Internet stranger
Feel ya bro. Kinda in a similar spot myself. Keep ya head up and keep on keeping on. It has to get better. Btw, you must be a very thoughtful individual and moving within the same niches as me here on RUclips, since you grabbed my attention at least once before. I have your "flow" playlist saved in my library 😀
"Yes there are two paths you can go down but in the long run,
There is still time to change the road you're on".
@pocztmistrzztczewa Thats awesome haha I didn't even realize that was public lol I hope u enjoyed it. I make music as a hobby and its a big part of my social life so it's genuinely gratifying when someone says they like anything associated with the music I listen to.
Gifted burnout is real bro, you're not alone. I was supposed to be my family's shining star. Everyone was sure I was going to end up a brain surgeon or rocket scientist or something. Come back and rescue everyone from poverty. Instead I ended up barely average and I had to claw my way there sometimes against internal factors. Now all I want is a peaceful life.
I'm 35 now but my 20's was not easy and i constantly was in a state of FOMO which lead to drinking every single day and going out with friends as much as i could until i reached a point where i hit a wall and had to start building myself up. It seems like things will be the same forever but it does change in time, you have to put your head down and embrace discomfort and struggle every day, get used to doing something hard every day and eventually every day life is a breeze.
"There is nothing more pathetic than seeing a grown man cry", this is a phrase I heard a number of times growing up and only ever from women.
And the reality for a man in revealing their vulnerability to another is that it can never be undone. We do open up or at least many of us do but we have learnt and or innately know to be very selective to who and when and often "test the waters" to gauge the reception first.
Yes because it spoils this fantasy and silent demand women have that men must be absolute objects of power. And never faulter. Be those imposing rocks where her emotional waves and tantrums and insecurities will crush and remain unphased.
I really appreciate being able to listen to these discussions.
I almost feel guilty, as though I'm eavesdropping into a private conversation at points.
However I think it genuinely helps us as women to get an insight into the male psyche and experience, so we can be better versed to help the men in our lives...Thank you. 💙
As a young man I appreciate you saying this. Such a big part of this issue for us is we don’t feel like women really care about our issues so just you trying to understand is a big deal. Thank you
What they say is not true.
Look at INCELs.
INCELs are crying. What do we tell them?
Everyone tells INCELs to stop crying & exercise ....
Start a project; go take online courses; go to University; start a business.....
What is the point of crying!?
Again, everyone would tell you to stop crying/complaining & do stuff.
@@awsambdamanb/c[most] modern females DO NOT CARE about men. Periodttt
This is one of the few manosphere-type RUclipsrs that nails it with his focus on science, references, guests and so on. It’s balanced and doesn’t blame women for all of men’s issues which is fantastic.
@@TheJoker-dj4yq I'm not sure what's gone on in your personal life to give you such a low opinion of women, and I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not a character in your story. I'm very fortunate to be surrounded by great men, I certainly have no desire to hurt any of them.
I listened to this one on spotify. This show keeps bringing new amazing people I didn't know about. The last six minutes are amazing. Now a big fan of Connor.
I've been really struggling lately to figure what I am, what I'm supposed to do, what I want to do as a man. It's been a challenge to reconcile my own natural organic sense of identity against the culture I was brought up in. This podcast really helped me feel better and hopeful and seen. Thank you.
Thank you, Chris for taking a bit of time to think and care about boys and men. For the last 50 years (unfortunately for me most of my life) our culture has hated on this demographic. I remember receiving hate from my elementary school teachers for the crime of being born male. When young men come to me for advice I tell them to be their best selves and good citizens. However, I make sure they are aware of the family court laws and our misandrist culture and to adjust their goals and expectations accordingly.
I continue to be amazed that as soon as our culture has reasonably overcome the challenges of nature, such as starvation, that one gender has abandoned the other half.
Stay safe and make wise choices men. Be strong and do not let our toxic culture get you down.
I don't blame young men for checking out of the dating and marriage scene.
I honestly blame the outside world for leaving young men behind and men in general.
You can't expect a person to figure out where they're going when you don't help them out. And when your hostile towards young men including pushing them to individuals like Andrew Tate,it's no wonder why some go black pill out of dejection from trying to do something about their situation.
I feel for any young men who still are trying out there,cause the outside world ain't gonna make it easy on them.
Yep…..
We REALLY need to stop blaming the children 😂❤
Stop the cope. You're not "checking out". They not wanted and mentally fellating Andrew Tate is no a logical response to any problem. Enough with this nonsense of "hostility to young men". They refuse to improve or grow up and blame everyone else for their problems and do nothing to solve any problems.
At the end of the day we agree. This world is a cruel and grueling place no matter your sex. I do not envy men, I never have. I can only imagine the struggle to embody the ideal of masculinity in a world that stamps out the inherent traits that boys exhibit naturally, instead favoring and encouraging docility and agreeablility. The sad fact is, there are so few positive father figures out there who will model and exhibit traits worthy of emulation to their offspring because our entire society is so skewed that men can't just be men anymore. This is a lose lose scenario. As women, we are biologically inclined to choose men who exhibit protective and powerful qualities but it seems more and more that these traits are not being adopted by boys these days. Also more and more women havent got a clue about how to be a good wife, but also that comes down to the fact that we are forced more than ever to pull exactly the same weight as our male counterparts on top of the responsiblities that come with running a household and motherhood
@@megansummers3775 I totally agree. Same way us guys is “biologically inclined” to want silence & sleep after sex 😂❤️
@@megansummers3775nice comment about “but what about women! Won’t someone think of the women!”….
Great conversation. It indeed seems to me, despite what modern women supposedly crave for - ie vulnerable, sensitive, "deconstructed" men -, that women can't handle men's insecurities and vulnerability. And by handle, I mean just listen really. As for being supportive...
Men need to go back to watching women, not listening to them. I'm in my early 40s now and the women I know are prone to emotion and wild decision making because of it. You can't base logic and reason off of that.
They simply _don't care_ 💊
Spot on, Pode.
Yeah, the problem with women saying that they want sensitive men is that they are being deceitful with the wording of that statement. What they actually want is a strong man who is always sensitive to her wants and feelings and needs without needing her to reciprocate that emotional devotion, not because she doesn't want to be supportive of a man's problems but because she expects that he will be full filled and completely happy and satisfied by making sure that she is happy and satisfied.
@@beowulf_of_wall_st yes, I'd say that's true for some of the women I'm talking about. Most women aren't willing to admit these truths about female behavior, but I'm gay and happily married and I have nothing to lose at all by offering a bit of honesty to the men in this world.
Crying about your problems isn't bad because it's weak, it's bad because it doesn't do anything to solve them. I have cried in front of many people over the years, and it never made anything better. The only thing that helped was me figuring out what to learn from a given experience.
I don't understand the assumed dichotomy of talking about your problems and not crying about them.
It's because there is a strong men vs women dichotomy, and the people pushing the idea that talking is the answer strongly pick one side.
For me the answer was learning and applying all kinds of old philosophies until I began to understand what and how it worked.
Everyone needs a good cry, it physiologically calms you down, I like to think of it as burning off excess emotion, for times when hard exercise and other coping tools aren't enough.
The bad is when you dwell in the "woe is me". Cry, grieve whatever needs to be grieved, take action.
I agree. Crying or opening up is cathartic for the sufferer. A human being needs to express certain emotions before they can move on. It's not the solution, but its a vital step necessary before moving towards the solution. But you have to take action. Because crying without action, will just cause a spiral into either depression or aggression.
It's like the steps needed to not repeat the same mistakes. You 1st have to ADMIT you made a mistake before you can prevent repeating it.
It might not have made any'thing' better but it probably made 'someone' feel better, you. Maybe not consciously but on some level your psychology needed you to cry and just get it out there; like the comment above me said, burning off emotion. Buddhism encourages people to sit with emotions and observe them while meditating; sometimes I cry when I do this but I'm always grateful. It didn't fix the problem, it can't bring anyone back from the dead, but you are looking after YOU.
How is beating the hell out of each other suppressing your emotions?
Nothing beats having a best friend as men. These brothers have your back at all times.
til a chick comes on the scene
@@GaZonk100 Yes, that definitely puts it to the test. Bros before hoes all the way.
Not true, at least in my experience, both men and women have proven to be unreliable and unavailable when needed.
About the last point of finding mentors: my approach was to get into the trades. Ended up in carpentry, but any will be good. Solid work that can survive a crisis, and plenty of tough men around, without women interfeerence. Four birds with one stone: you get paid, you do physical labor, you learn usefull skills, and you learn 'manship'.
I always recommend young adults to join their states Conservation Corps, or to move to California for the CCC. Perfect program for young people to find mentors and adventure both while building skills, making money as well as plenty of opportunity.
I did the same. It was not until I worked in construction that I became a real man. Until thar point I had always been surrounded by female mentors giving the worst advice to a young man.
I work in construction, and there are some of the most toxic men I have ever met working in it. High rates of divorce, horrible marriages, drinking, drugs, etc. Add to that beat up bodies from being "manly" instead of smart, and it's one of the most depressing fields I can think of for young men to get into. I try to spot the smarter kids coming in and intercept them before they get all wrapped up in a heap of lies and dysfunction, but there's only so much you can do.
@@PetrosArgy Oh yeah, thats definetly true(i was 10 years in construction). Lot of game of thrones type of shit. But you can still learn a lot if you read between the lines.
I’m a 31 year old male who is plenty aware of my emotions. If being emotional is too feminine for some women then they weren’t the right one anyways. I’ll never apologize for being myself. I’m not going to pretend to be something I am not, take me or leave me.
Too many women hold the narrative to call a man insecure when he voices his feelings. One thing I’ve learned is that if a person you are dating is bringing out your insecurities and is unwilling to see that you become insecure when their actions are the cause, they are not for you. Keep looking for healthy if you are healthy and/or healing. You have to become the partner you want to be with and attraction will take care of the rest.
It's not about being non-emotional, it's about being non-reactive to emotions.
@@jonkybeats What I find wierd is the only women that have issues with men showing emotions are the ones who keep saying men need to show their emotions.
There’s a big difference between understanding your emotions and letting them run you ; e.g. being emotional. One’s stoic, the others ungrounded.
First of all, stoicism isn't emotional suppression it's understanding followed by acceptance of what and why you've been emotionally triggered. So it appears as though you're unaffected or suppressing but in reality you just have an excellent grip on understanding a situation and it no longer has the same impact on you.
Another thing, if you have 5 high achievers and 1 low achiever in a team the high achievers will usually ostracize the weak on because he can potentially be a danger to them all.
It seems that the subject being discussed is always qualified as YOUNG men. I'm 42 and feel like I'm just as immersed and disaffected by these attitudes as any age group within the community of men in this country. I think statistics pertaining to male suicide reflect this in glaring fashion.
You're accurate in your thinking. I'm 44, and I've had relatives, friends and am aware of many others estranged by their manhood senior to me.
I’m in my 40’s as well. And you are spot on. There needs to be a clear message to young men that it doesn’t automatically get better as you age.
As men we MUST take proactive steps to the right balance. And do it sooner rather than later.
Dont know if I count as "young" I am 30 and I just think it has gotten progressively worse with age.
I’m 36 and I think it DOES get better with age. The more I’ve lived the more I’ve understood that it’s all about accountability. If you’re not doing the right things over a prolonged period of time then of course you won’t get the results that you want. First you have to be clear in what you want out of life. A lot of people are so lost but it’s sad because life is pretty fucking straightforward if you pay attention/read books/ eat healthy enrich your mind instead of binging Netflix/porn etc
We find that the masses do not get the ROI they were sold. I love the fight club speech about all the things we were supposed to be, and never got.
"It's low status to talk about status"....that's brilliant, man.
Chris, my dude. You're doing the lords work.
The episodes with Connor and Matthew Hussey are probably among my top 10 of your podcast
Excellent interview! As a wife and mother of a son I truly, truly appreciate these deep dives into men and what makes them tick. Thank you!
This podcast was such a revealation for me and something I’ve never heard addressed. My father was a POW in a German concentration camp when he was in his early 2o’s. He was evacuated and had his feet partially frozen when he was liberated. They sent him to a place in NJ to recover and then home with no support. His first child, my brother died. The rest of his life was a series of divorces, fleeting relationships and substance abuse. The only thing he ever told me about his experience were Hogan’s Hero’s humorous anecdotes, that because my grandfather was German and he had a rudimentary understanding of German, he was kept alive to translate. The other story was that he befriended a spider in the cage he was kept in. I had a superficial and resentful relationship with him as did my step siblings. He left my mother when I was seven. He was never cruel or intentionally mean, just unable to have a relationship. I had no understanding or empathy for him because of my anger at his abandonment. Understanding only came when I was much older. It has been a generational trauma in some ways. You gave me so much insight-thank you!! Maybe you could do a podcast on how to deal with the triggering Donald Trump’s comments-losers and suckers etc…can stir in children of POW’s. His authoritarian agenda to subvert democracy that many of our families had our childhood parenting fucked over for is so distressing.Sure some love him, but many might find it disturbing. It’s brought it to the forefront for me again
Part of being emotionally intelligent as a man is understanding who is capable, and who is not, of understanding and bearing male emotions. Hint: it's not women.
Men, you are enough, you are valuable, men you are needed. God bless all of you!🙏🙏🙏🙏👍👍👍👍👍❤️❤️
This is an important conversation for our New Age. I am a senior sigma male, borne of a father who fought thru WW2 and a mother, a very intelligent conscientious nurse. But I realise you can become toxic as a man very easily. I am always a failed perfectionist but admit to myself that I try far too hard. I sympathise with all young men today and I have gone mgtow now as I approach retirement, simply because I don’t fit in. I want to use my strength and intelligence to set an example as best I can. Love action, maybe. Men need their groups and hobbies, cooperation and competition. Women use hypergamy and monkey branching to select what they see as the best men. The depth of it all is tricky - we need more strong men for sure.
Last Friday I broke up after 7 years relationship with my Girlfriend. I was a "Yes-Man" that wanted to make her happy. Even if I didn't listen to my own wishes/needs. I was a secondary character in my own life. I was sad, got angry and felt so so miserable. I continued a job I hated just for "our" sake. I often had situation, when she wanted me to lead, but only if she liked my idea, otherwhise she ignored my attempts to gain confidence, to gain authority for my self and I hated it so much. I fell now way better then I did the last few years and I aim to stay true to my self in my next relationship.
I ask this from a place of empathy: who was the main driver in starting this relationship? Did she ask you to be her boyfriend?
I'm just curious
@@Xairos84 I asked her out. The whole emasculation, bemothering aspect wasn't present at the beginning. I was a unreliable young man in my early 20's. So she tried to help me with directing and leading our life. The dynamic sadly stayed even when I chanced after a few years. But chancing a couple dynamic after years is hard. And I took too many easy routes during the last years. I embrace now the unknown and the uncomfortable.
I’ve been there man! It’s not easy, but do the work for yourself to break those patterns for the rest of your life 🫡 you got this
This is a great conversation that needs to be had. We are many years away from the full scope of this masculinity crisis becoming apparent enough to enact societal change. Unfortunately, most women that are genuinely empathetic of men are those who have seen their brothers and sons struggle tremendously or end their lives. Otherwise, even most feminists look to men to be emotional rocks that they can lean on them. Vulnerability is not acceptable.
@@brianmeen2158 Exactly. I share the same experiences with my mother and sister. They simply had no basis of experience to give good advice to a young man or boy. Notice how so many women’s respond to what they find is attractive in a man is just “confidence”. They have very little conception of what that actually means and how you cultivate in a healthy masculine way.
Men are forced from being stoic, only to be called petty for being emotionally open
Men are forced into an emotional double bind
Easy solution. Don't play the game. Be stoic. Frankly, I don't care what women "say." They don't even know how to articulate what they want. No use in listening to them.
Thank you Chris, I’m sure you get compliments from all angles but I just hope you realize how impactful your work truly is.
As a man dating in his 30’s I cannot stress this enough for younger men…never, ever ,under any circumstance be vulnerable too or around a woman. At best it will dry their HooHaa up like the Sahara..at worst they will use it against you.
Aye, be open around your PEERS. Women are NOT your peers, at least not any woman you want to keep around. It’s always a test. They want to see if you’re weak enough to be vulnerable in front of them. The moment you are, they’re looking for their next Iron Man in the back of their minds.
Yep, one reason why men turn colder towards women than the event horizon of a black hole.
I do not agree. Open and honest communication creates emotional intimacy and is essential for a good relationship. I would suggest opening slowly and see how your date reacts.
Ignore this. Find better women, I have.
lmao women are people too and everyone talks about them as they were different species, if a person laughs at your vulnerability she/him/xer is a terrible person not a terrible woman/guy/woman or guy
In a debate during a high school feminism class one the girls got frustrated and said "you guys have oppressed us for thousands of years!"
... I said to her "We're both only 16!"
Women have always played the game of life, talking about oppression is fairly moot
'oppressed', as in: everything hard done for them. Now they're 'liberated' by devoting their life to a company or the government. Hilarious and depressing at the same time. Historically, most men would've loved to stay at home taking care of the family, instead of doing long hours of physical labor.
Feminism was a hijacked movement from the start. Elites have been manipulating it to break up families, destroy roles, and atomize people who would otherwise work together, into antagonistic positions that only elites gain from.
Seriously hate that attitude like yeah women were oppressed for so long and still are in some ways but you can't blame every single man alive today for the sins of their ancestors that's really unfair like we're not responsible for what these other people did just because bad men exist doesn't mean all men are never allowed to have any problems ever as a cisgender white man it doesn't matter how liberal my views actually are and how much I try to support women and minorities I'll always get accused of being a bigot or told to shut up that I don't have any right to speak on issues because I'm too privileged and yet they don't see it as its own kind of bigotry
@@raymondmurdock8603how are women still oppressed?
I feel that a lot of what we're dealing with, be it men's issues or just general societal issues, is an inflection point of modernity. Pretty much everything we have to deal is self-inflcted. Humans progress quickly but evolve slowly and we can't keep up.
I grew up without my Dad mostly, and was also pretty isolated socially. So many things I've had to learn later in life on my own or from peers cause I didn't have that older male guidance and role modeling. Came out alright but it definitely makes things easier getting that knowledge early.
This has been an incredible interview for me. Very eye opening and relatable. Thanks for doing this and for the work you do!
I opened up to my girlfriend once, a few years ago…she is a good woman so she didn’t leave. But, she told me she got depressed afterwards and had nightmares
One of the best podcast Ive seen so far when it comes to the issues that men face. great job and thank you :)
I've been with my husband almost two decades. I've seen him cry just a few times. He only cried for others. He was upset because he had done something that hurt me or one of the kids was hurt. He has never cried for his sake. He is my rock.
Very, very interesting - I still hide from my wife when I tear-up at a sad scene in a movie, for fear she'd think less of me. Of course, I'm not 'sad' for myself but a fictional situation. When she cries, I hug her firmly, so she knows I'm standing strong when she is weak even though I could be torn-up inside. It seems to work...
Agree with this more than I can say. Being a boy with no older male role models makes the world so much harder. Makes growing up so much harder
“women don’t want us to be vulnerable emotionally: they want to know that we know what is happening inside of us, that we can communicate what is happening inside of us, and that we have the resources around ourselves to support us. They don’t want to be responsible for it, or supporting us with it.”
This was a golden nugget
That is being vulnerable, sharing is vulnerability as it leaves you open to attack or manipulation. But you are right that we don't want to be responsible for it in the same way a man is not responsible for my emotions etc.
Those 1960s formica glasses perched on Chris's ears look pretty fuckin vulnerable to me.
Mark Manson’s book “Models” breaks it down beautifully. Vulnerability isn’t just about crying or emotional vomit. It’s about showing yourself unashamedly to the world, warts and all.
That's a foolish thing to do. You can show yourself unashamed to another person, warts and all - and that's called intimacy. And you do that when you know you can trust the other person to see you without dismissing, condemning, or taking advantage.
@@charlesstanford1310or you are secure and can live with other people judging you.
@@fbulderin2415 OK, that too. Which means their judgments don't *hurt* me, which means I'm not making myself *vulnerable* to them.
Status is not the currency of men.
Competency is the currency of men. Status is the end product that competency buys.
Some men are the most popular of their group cause they are the most loud, aggressive, extroverted, ruthless etc. Doesn't necessarily make you more skilled. Many capitalistically successful men are also not some kind of well rounded gigachad. I don't think that's how status hierarchies work.... .
My father told me that suppression is bad but that there is a time and place for emotional expression and vulnerability. This helped me once I actually stopped and reflected on it in my 20's.
Of course, the women in my life generally taught me that If they are involved, the time is never and the place is nowhere.
Men of the world have some problems but they can't solve all of it alone.
Such a good episode. Basically summarised my life in an hour and a half.
found out you weren't alone?
I'm convinced that men absolutely NEED to feel like they have a purpose. Every man, blue collar, white collar, ex navy seals, ex snipers, they all get suicidally depressed once they feel like they don't have a purpose.
The question is openness… openness to strength, courage, kindness, humor, heart, will, power ….. there is a deep misunderstanding about vulnerability which is an initial sense or sensitivity underneath a defense … both based in fear … the defense and the sense or fear of vulnerability… what is needed is an openness 🎉
Then let's use the clear word. Openness is free of the etymological baggage of the V-word. I suspect the V-word caught on because it was provocative, but it insults our intelligence to disregard its etymology: the ability to be wounded. The concept of wounding is inherent in the very word. "Openness" is neutral about that, and therefore a better word to use.
@@charlesstanford1310 i understand.. to go into the whole unfoldment and layers of vulnerability to openness more then a simple post …. For many walking through the door of vulnerability and facing and digesting one’s fears and hurts to true openness is considered a path of integration of strength with openness 💫
@@crystaldragonwoman With all due respect, this shows the problem as I see it: "vulnerability" should be a word with a clear definition, instead, people have taken it and blown it up into a nebulous mystical concept, like it's a new religion or something. It's an idol of ersatz logos, and I refuse to bow to it. I can face and digest my fears and hurts - I've been working on that since before this "vulnerability" spell started up, and I don't need it. I know something about spells, I find "vulnerability" to be a deeply flawed one, and I see no good reason to try to defend it.
Well said. 'Vulnerable' is a synonim of 'weak'. And weak people get taken advantage of. Once it has happened, you'll never trust anyone advicing you to be vulnerable/weak. But, as you say, being open requires way more strength than being vulnerable.
@@kc6810 being honest is being vulnerable as long as you care what others think. As long as you are dependant on others.
As was being discussed in this thread, you can be honest by being open, without making yourself vulnerable. For men, stoicism is key.
Not having father love, (died early in my life) massively impacted my male -female relationships.
1:22:02 this is key. We get the blame for past priviledges (which, often, are not so much priviledges in the first place, like the 'ability' to work that feminism has 'granted' on women), but we have been raised in single mom households, going to female dominated schools, consuming female driven media... It's just too much. We've done nothing wrong except, if anything, putting women on a pedestal (or rather, believing the women who put themselves on a pedestal).
Group punishment for past wrongs. No end.
I can't help but hear MrBallen when Connor speaks, which is definitely a compliment
See now ive grown up being the vunerable male and fallen to rock bottom from it. And now am struggling to show resilience and "do what needs to be done even when i dont want to". There seems a pitfall in both mentalities. The question is how to balance the two.
There are no pitfalls in being masculine. The only reason people criticise it is because they want you to be weak, so that they can compete against you. Women can't compete against a proper man.
Am completely different compared to Connor. Str8 A student without even trying hard, no interest in drugs, I feel that even the taste of beer kind of sucks, never understood why people enjoy alcohol. Life was never difficult for me I could always get any job I applied for or do whatever I set my mind to.. OUTSIDE of 3 things: belonging, having faith and success with women. My problem is I always end up questioning everything, end up being an outsider and I am unable to have faith in any system or belief other people seem to have, which antagonizes others. I seem to seek contrast and I question too much, am very cerebral. I do enjoy being an outsider tho and with age I found a new perspective regarding women through experience and looking at other people's relationships, comparing them to my own experiences. IMO contentment can not be found in the arms of a woman. Relationships will always have a foundation of conflict, so my relative mediocre success with women has ceased to be a problem for me and I started to increasingly see it as a blessing in disguise. I can always support my brother and offload the burden of family legacy onto him since he prefers to just live and not think too deeply about things anyway. I like to think that I understand women and consequently I find it hard to love them outside of sexual attraction which never really drove me anyway. Once I escaped the Disney indoctrination in my early 20s the appeal outside of sex was gone.
Very good observations.. well said.
Based. And correct.
Also, I can scientifically and philosophically answer most if not all of your questions regarding God. additionally the Bible says that it is better NOT TO marry. And the Bible exposes fefail nature. But most won't teach you the truth about it all.
I'm thinking women would be interested (amazed?) at this conversation - and it brings to mind the question: is there a female version of Chris Williamson running a podcast that that does the same for women as Chris does for men? I'd like to listen to healthy women turning their own analytical acumen back upon themselves.
Try Sarah Dawn Moore
Louise Perry is great!
Camille Paglia
Tammy Peterson (Jordan Peterson’s wife)
Suzanne Venker
One of my best and closest friends took his own life a few years ago. He went through a divorce, lost his job, house and savings. He convinced us all he was OK. We wanted him to talk about it. We all had him out for dinner but he just laughed at us a said he was fine - he was not. Two weeks later he was gone. He fooled us all.
Thank you so much for having these talks, it helps a lot!
Brilliant, I really enjoyed that!
Such knowledgeable guests, really great analysis by Connor
Thank you for having him on!
Open up about your problems if you want your family to betray you 💫
My girlfriend told me a few weeks ago that she wants me to be more vulnerable with her, and tell her more about what I am struggling with. I know it is a trap, because if I were to really do so and "open up" to her, she would lose all respect for me in an instant. If I do have a problem I talk to her about, I always make sure I tell her how I am working through it and what solutions I am coming up with to take action to solve it.
Great stuff, Chris. Boy, Connor struck a chord 28:30. Actually, he's being kind to women with his explanation. I've found a very significant segment of the female population actually detests the vulnerable man. They see him as weak and emotionally impotent.
A great discussion, that confirmed a few observations that I have made over the years. Dad was captured in Egypt and spend 3.5 yrs in prisoner of war camps in Italy and Germany. He came back a bit broken - heavy drinking as all the men from those experiences did, but I felt for many years that a big element was that life was just so pale, after the war. A life of real purpose replaced by something that was too safe and routine. He taught me and my brother as well as he could what being a man was and male behaviour. I feel blessed that we went to Christian Brothers for secondary, so we had that all male influence in our teens, which I think was a good grounding. I have seen the change in male spaces in my life time. I started at the YMCA in my final years of school and have gone to the gym since - over 50 yrs, and to some extend lament the change from a male space to a mixed one where behaviour is tempered for women. Interestingly most guys have no interaction with the women, they spend time and train with the guys they know. Good content, keep up the good work Chris.
I also found great value in the "negative roll model" while growing up. There were a very few older men that I knew that were worth trying to model myself after. The greater percentage were men who taught me by example of what not to do or how not to be.
Thank you for articulating the double standards of men’s aggression
Wow, this episode gave me so much insight into my own thoughts and feelings. From comparing myself to other men to my relationships with my parents. I don't think I would've ever been able to connect these dots if it wasn't for this conversation. Amazing work guys, thank you 🙏🏽.
I can only speak for myself in saying that I do not keep things bottled up inside because I am uncomfortable saying them. I tend to naturally be a rather candid person. I keep them bottled up because there isn’t anyone I feel safe expressing these thoughts to. Brings up the topic of loneliness in men. I don’t have any close male friends. I did have one and about twelve years ago he was sent to jail for…let’s just say a crime involving a minor. I ended our friendship when he told me he was innocent even though I had no doubt he wasn’t (long story). I have had a hard time trusting other men ever since
Damn this one hit home in so many ways. Really loved this podcast!
I know this is about men - but it’s so interesting to listen to a couple of men talking about women’s experience of life, talk and issues but seemingly thinking they’re different- I’m hearing more common experiences than different
Before watching: Vulnerability is good, but it's not the same as being weak or a coward. Being vulnerable is things like not being okay with the suffering of the world and wanting to make a difference, it's the pain in my eyes when my partner is having a bad day, it's the tone in my voice when I talk to a child who has done something wrong, it's the way I let my partner in when things aren't going well. Being vulnerable makes us stronger and brings us closer to the people we love, given it's done the right way.
You're describing sensitivity and tact.
The word "vulnerability" does not deserve defense. Does that make sense? @jock-of-ages73 has it right: you're describing needed traits and behaviors, but there's no need to bend over backwards trying to duct-tape them to the V-word.
I feel so broken. I’m ready to leave this earth. But I am grateful I had all the experiences I’ve had the last 31 years. I’ve tried everything for depression and anxiety and this world feels so broken and my mind so damaged that I want to leave and let this burden lift. Do you think society can help with this?
Not a dig on Chris, but I love how people are re-discovering things like "We fall to the lowest common denominator. Five people on a team that work hard and one that doesn't, surely they will raise that one up, but they don't." . . . yeah, it's almost like "One bad apple spoils the bunch."
The old wisdom must be destroyed by the Maoists.
One of the best conversations on this challenging subject. Bravo!
Hey Chris love the podcast. Would love to have a podcast dedicated to shadow work (Carl Jung) since I think this helps both men and women on their personal development journey. Also this would be a slighty different focused topic.
Like this comment for him to see!!
I have come to learn that no matter how happy, how depressed, how wealthy or how poor I am that life doesn't care and is going to happen no matter what. So instead of caring about dreams of wealth or happiness I just have a "bucket list" of things that have to happen before I die. I have two so far: out live my father and be out of debt. My emotional state does not play a role in achieving those things.
For anyone confused, as a man, you can only show emotions and talk to other men/therapists. You don’t talk about it with any female ever. They lose respect and dry up because you’re not emotionally stable and can’t take on challenges. You’re supposed to be Superman in their eyes or they will find someone who is. Only other men know the challenges of men. Women who get into clubs for free and get can have sex with almost anyone they want don’t understand the male struggle. The old saying goes, no one cares what a woman thinks, and no one cares what a man feels.
Men should talk to a male therapist if they are contemplating eating their gun. Other than that, even speaking to another man about issues can backfire. Keep it to yourself
Best conversation I've heard in a very long time. A strong woman doesn't want to be her partner's mother. Sexual attraction understandably diminishes to zero.
The same as saying that you cannot genuinely love a man 😢
So is expecting your man to be your rock not expecting him to be your father?
My family was deeply scarred by war, and the poison drip of unresolved, unaddressed mental and emotional trauma has bled down from my grandfather, grandmother and father to me. They lost their country, loved ones, and everything they had, and carried deep burning anger as a result that they unintentionally lashed me with. I also have suffered much from being neuroatypical. That created my own boulder on my shoulder that I had to eventually let go of. The alternative was my own demise. The result is I am a man who had to do his best to raise himself, I might as well had been an orphan. I have a tough time relating to others, especially women. I am now approaching the end of my own life, alone except for two siblings snd my mother. It is likely they will die before I do. I hate this society's snarky, sarcastic attitude towards men who are disadvantaged through no fault of their own.h
I want to say. I'm now 29. I first had my test checked at 23 because of low physical energy and low libido. My test came back at 383 as a fucking 23 year old. The doctor told me I was within normal ranges and wouldn't lift a finger to help. Physical training feels terrible for me, but I have been pushing myself to try to get my test up naturally. I had it checked a year ago at 28, and it came back at 402. The doctor still won't help, and I have dam near lost all hope. You are lucky they at least did something for you. I am stuck trying OTC remedies that do not seem to be doing much.
How you sleep? What you eat ?
I lived for 20 years in Edmonton, Alberta.
The misery and hopelessness of existence, pretty much permeates everybody who lives in that province. 😂
That’s why I moved to British Columbia and have never been happier.
The nature out there is fucking pristine. Good for you!
I completely disagree, there is so many more successful men around alberta to rub shoulders with. There is also so much opportunities in Alberta. I live in bc and work in Alberta
@@jasonmoxley465 you actually kinda prove my point. I never said there wasn’t plenty of opportunity and oil money in Edmonton and you don’t live there either, your happily living in B.C just like myself. Anyone that has to live through eight months of winter it’s bound to have a bit of a chip on the shoulder wouldn’t you agree? 😂
Brilliant discussion - 37 minutes in. Could not agree more.....
Yeah, everyone has thoughts about who should initiate any given sexual encounter. And I agree that there is a double standard when women are not in the mood vs when men aren't. Women almost always take the "rejection" of sex as a rejection of desire for her and men are expected by women to not take the same rejection personally. I've never understood these double standards. I don't know if that is because I'm a lesbian or not, but I definitely agree that it exists. I'd like to thank the both of you for a very interesting and intelligent conversation. 🙂
That double standard is rooted millions of years into our biology. Male sexual desire and attention is cheap, female is precious.
@@charlesstanford1310 yes it is a crappy double standard. But I think it is the male habit of casual sex that may be the root cause of it. A man is capable of sleeping with the same woman repeatedly without developing feelings for her, but women just can't do this on average. So to a woman sex is connected to love and for a man it is connected to getting off. So to a woman being rejected sexually is a rejection of love as well as sex, and that isn't true for a man, generally speaking. None the less I find the interaction between men and women confusing and perplexing, to say the least.
Only the dead have seen the end of the war. Men have lived war as a constant reality. Coping with it is in our DNA.
I think a lot of men misunderstand Stoicism. It’s not about suppression, it’s about acceptance.
When you are truly Stoic you aren’t feeling intense emotions on the inside but lying about them on the outside, you are actively integrating how you feel into your being, and as a result you are in control. You don’t need to display your feelings to signal to others how you feel because you’ve already accepted how you feel to yourself. You don’t need to feel validated for your feelings because you you can validate yourself. You are vulnerable to yourself, and your heart and mind are pure and you can speak the truth because you have nothing to hide.
Men’s internal struggle comes from being ashamed of how they feel, inadequate, bad, insecure, envious, lustful, hateful, sad, weak, etc. but they got the wrong message all along: there’s nothing wrong with how you feel, it’s what you do and say that matters. When you feel a certain way, just acknowledge that you feel it and be okay with it. You don’t have to tell anyone if you don’t want to.
The dissonance comes from hating the way you feel and needing to tell someone to feel reassured or validated, or by activating coping mechanisms or self-medicating to make the feeling go away. Talking can work as well but only with someone with whom you have extreme trust. But you don’t have to… you can just be okay with how you feel, you have nothing to be ashamed of, NOBODY knows how you feel unless you want them to, and you don’t have to do a damn thing about your feelings, you can just feel them and be okay with feeling them.
Once you’ve accepted your own feelings you can feel free to talk about them without the emotions attached that make it unnattractive, you can be “vulnerable” by showing how well you handle your emotions not by showing how desperately you need somebody else to handle your emotions for you.
Upvote for the other person around here thats read Marcus Aurelius. lol.
@@GodsOwnPrototype lol, my bad. Iphone commenting.
@@GodsOwnPrototype alright, I broke it up. Hope that helps.
Love your comment! Not only because it makes sense but because it is universal. Clingny women that ask their partners to resolve their issues for them is also unatracive...self acceptance and taking pride and care of who you are and who you want to become is healthy for any individual's development. Thanks for sharing 👍
Men are generally very practical, we need plans we can put into action to solve the problem. Venting about things can only go so far, but then we need real plans to follow in detail