Are Incels A Threat To Society? - William Costello
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- William Costello is a writer and Ph.D. student at the University of Texas.
Men being hopeless with women is not a new phenomenon. But them self-identifying and creating a subculture around being "genetic dead ends" definitely is. William conducted some of the world's first research into the underlying psychological profile of incels to find out just what's going on.
Expect to learn why 45% of working age women will be single and childless by 2030, why many incels would rather bond over failure than over trying to improve, why women dating down is causing huge problems, whether Leonardo DiCaprio should date people his own age, whether incels are alt-right, why the claim that incels are all white men is superbly wrong and much more...
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#incels #datingmarket #blackpill
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00:00 Intro
00:24 Intentionally Childless Women
10:04 Are There Female Incels?
16:18 Is Hypergamy in Decline?
28:43 Leonardo DiCaprio’s Girlfriends
35:25 The Power to Charm a Female
43:14 Common Traits of Incels
59:20 How Incels Become ‘Fakecels’
1:08:27 The Impact of Social Media on Incels
1:17:59 Consequences of the Mating Crisis
1:25:10 Where to Find William
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Listen to all episodes on audio:
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Spotify: spoti.fi/2LSimPn
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Get in touch in the comments below or head to...
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Hello beautiful people. I really enjoyed this one. Here’s the timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:24 Intentionally Childless Women
10:04 Are There Female Incels?
16:18 Is Hypergamy in Decline?
28:43 Leonardo DiCaprio’s Girlfriends
35:25 The Power to Charm a Female
43:14 Common Traits of Incels
59:20 How Incels Become ‘Fakecels’
1:08:27 The Impact of Social Media on Incels
1:17:59 Consequences of the Mating Crisis
1:25:10 Where to Find William
great show...& I had to listen to it twice to get it all. the first time, my feelings got in the way.
Thanks for the table of contents it really helps when i’m short on time.
Men are not STRUGGLING with women ......... MEN DONT NEED WOMEN ANYMORE .
yes, they are a threat, lets put them in camps and put guards around them, the thing about camps no one can go out, but no one can go in either, so when society falls around them, they will still get food housing and protection mandated /paid by the government, doesnt sound so bad now. They will get swimming pool, cafeteria, music programs, advanced classes and entertainment, sounds great to me. Sounds exactly like another camp but i cant quite put my finger on it. The only thing they wont need are nurseries to save on costs ofcourse
The bar to entry today is so high and hard for men, that the juice isn't even worth the squeeze. I've quit on women completely. Nothing, Natha. Not even "friendships" aka orbiting like a vulture around them. I gain nothing from the interaction with them, and it would be utterly irrational if i persisted to pretend i could one day integrate in their society not to mention get in their pants.
“Women now have choices. They can be married, not married, have a job, not have a job, be married with children, unmarried with children. Men have the same choice we've always had: work, or prison.” - Tim Allen
Haha
Goddamn. Tim a straight prophet!
Lol yes. Get rich or die trying
Men can choose just like women can. Men can get married or not get married, men can choose to have children or not have children. Unless you have a nice trust fund everyone has to work.
@@lizabear7014 how can they choose to have children?
Our society is very lonely and lacking in community activities, therefore insanely obsessed with sex; and with self.
Much sexual frustration is loneliness (or a sense of failure) in disguise.
Correct. Its a hedonistic and individualist society with no common values. No communal activities. No rites of passage. Nothing to give men a purpose
💯💯💯
This is what happens when the Christian moral code breaks down. Monogamy is shamed, loose and amoral women come to the fore again
I agree
@@brianmeen2158 There was massive loneliness before computer screens.
And you certainly aren't going to make friends by going outside.
What makes being an incel so sinister is how the identity lingers and follows you. Even if you become objectively attractive and desirable, there is just so much genuine psychological trauma and damage to unravel before you're morally allowed to enjoy the opportunities in front of you (moral because it's a deep-rooted sense that it's WRONG for you to be wanted when you're an incel). That feeling is unimaginably oppressive.
I read a poem that said something along the lines of "once you've been abandoned on the outskirts, a part of you will always be out there long after you've been invited in". The only thing harder than being an incel is unbecoming one. That's a layer of the issue few people acknowledge.
Thank you
Yes, I suspect it is a type of imposter syndrome. What if one reversed it? What if you could realize you always belonged and something was simply amiss before? Perhaps the place or timing was wrong? You were always wonderful when you were nice and now that you have grown and flourished, people have grown to realize you always were a gift.
About a decade ago, I figured everything out. I know the fastest way to find an attractive partner and can easily do it in a day. I have girls chasing me now. My wife is madly in love with me and will do anything I ask. Yet, previous decades of being alone makes me hypervigilant towards any new information on the topic. I am always looking for ways to improve my skills in an area where I surpass 99.9% of the population now.
Spoken as a true, experienced incel. I agree. You will always be the guy that was marginalised, demonised, and lost all the "normal socialisation and sexual stages of development" throughout the first decades of your life. Imagine telling a woman in your 30s that asks tell me about your past relationships on a date, and you just remain silent.
Oh you poor sad story sods. Time to grow up.
Loneliness is an experience not an ideology.
and what is ideology?
I've read through a lot of comments here, and a recurring theme is a lot of people who don't understand this, seem to be boiling it down to men not getting sex.
Yes that might be a small part of it (sex means you're being physically accepted), but I am very confident to say that the majority of men in this situation actually would like to experience companionship, loyalty and feeling accepted by a woman.
So just telling these men to go pay for prostitution is really missing the point. On top of that, you would be paying for a physical act, and ultimately, it is kind of hollow and fake. Of course some men are happy with this, and I completely understand. But in general these men are lonely and want to be loved and desired, just like any person does (female or male). Reducing it down to sex is really confusing the discussion.
Men want to be loved and appreciated, and feel like someone has their back. (And by extension, they don't want to be cheated on, abused, misled, deceived or exploited) And I'm fairly sure these sort of expectations are common to both genders, not just women - who seem to be safer at expressing these sort of facets of what they want from a relationship as opposed to a guy that expresses wanting to feel desired and accepted, which is becoming less socially acceptable to say.
As for the topic of incel itself, the issue is multi-faceted and a tapestry of different elements.
Society, and by extension, women, seem to want men to "just get it", with regard to knowing intergender dynamics, flirting, behaving around women, knowing what they want, and knowing what THEY RESPOND to. If you don't "get it" as a guy, there's a higher likelihood that you will fall through the gaps of society with regard to sexual maturity/development. They become sexually maladjusted. Their sexual/emotional development stops and remains naive and immature. Then you discover online porn, only fans etc, which absolutely doesn't help, but initially it does, initially it's a salve for the absence of physical intimacy. At best that stuff should be complementary to a healthy sex life, at worst, it becomes a substitute. Then throw in all the cultural shifts, like modern feminism which just attempts to erode thousands of years of natural biomechanics - for women that is career first, family later. Single mothers being praised (but that son she is raising doesn't have a father role in his life, and is immediately flawed when trying to integrate into society). The sexual revolution. Dating apps/sites which removes the granular and natural act of meeting someone in person that was the norm 50+ years ago. Mobile phones which allow instant access to all the online stuff I just mentioned anywhere at anytime, which also includes a predatory effect of exploiting women's subconscious desire for always trying to find the best value of things in life (and they can easily window shop for the best thing on their phones, whether it's clothes, or men). The attack on the nuclear family and traditional gender roles. It's a massive mess.
There's more, or rather more nuance, but that's enough for now as a 44 yr old male virgin. (And no I'm not violent or misogynistic. Just defeated and dejected. Like a lot of guys, part of this is that I've been sold a false bill of goods at a young age about women via films, literature, tv, etc. And it's a very big eye opening moment when you get a better understanding of what women want, and what they respond to, and how they obfuscate these things, and never admitting to these things in open discourse unless they're anonymous)
Someone said somewhere about incel men probably being a bit autistic. As harsh as it sounds, I don't necessarily think this is wrong. A lot of this is about reading social cues. Of course, no one gives a flying fuck about autistic men in society.
This is a good article to read if you TRULY want to understand the nuance of sexless men.
slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
Holy shit dude. This comment should be pinned. By far the best comment I've read here.
This is likely the most relevant thing said about this subject.
Thanks for the link and for your point of view. I'm also virgin 28 yo man. People telling me that I'm physically attractive enough and with good manners but I'm single from 19 yo now.
And when I had 2 gfs I was still not capable to ask for sex or I didn't know how to do the first step because I don't wanna be too pushy. I respect women a lot...
Thoughtful comment… a rarity on RUclips.. the most inane comments receive the most likes as always
Had to respond, one of the best comment I've seen on the subject, this is all absolutely true. I'm exactly in this situation. The loneliness, wanting to be appreciated, respected, and accepted by women... I'm not even talking about love. Just wanting to be 'seen' by the opposite sex, not being invisible. This is a very primitive desire.
Desiring from the people we are attracted to the same amount of interest we have for them. I think that's something that ALL humans deeply need, and the majority of women don't even realize it, because they KNOW they are wanted and desired by men, they know they are not invisible to men, they see men going toward them everyday. And if a woman somehow not yet aware of that, she will once she downloads any dating app.
Most men do NOT have this by default. I believe this is the root of the suffering of a lot of men.
Man really said: “The online world is not the real world, you need to get offline and into the real world and the way to do that is therapy, online therapy” 😂
If you can’t get out into the real world, online therapy is a great way to get over the agoraphobia initially
@@eomoran online therapy is (mostly) trash. Talk therapy for men is mostly trash as well.
@@seemlesslies are you saying you don't find the ultra woke field of therapy by feminists unhelpful??
then you're a bigot
(this is all very sarcastic btw)
Therapy is a racket. If you need help, and it’s bad enough to pay someone, hire a psychiatrist.
@@seemlesslies took me a long time to find a therapist worth a damn for me. I am very aggressive with my desires I’m therapy and if the therapist “is to kind” with their assessments I don’t go back. That’s not what I want, I want results
I’ve sort of decided to stop trying with women and just focus on myself. Being raised in a broken home sort of distorted my perception of reality around relationships. I’m just going to focus on myself. Thanks Chris 🙏
I hope you make it to the other side ❤️🙏
@@MsQ275 Thanks 🙏
Don’t be a quitter but focusing on yourself (if you are doing it right) can open opportunities
Same situation here. I grew up in a home where my parents fight all the time. And its not normal, little arguments that most people have. So i'm kind of disqusted by the idea of being with someone bcz I think I will probably end up like them.
@@sullathehutt7720 Guy doesn’t understand how rigged against men it actually is. He thinks it’s the same as it was in the 1950’s-1970’s. LIES. It’s much much worse for men.
Something I rarely ever see brought up about this subject is how often these kinds of men suffered abuse as children, in the worst ways possible that no kid should ever go through.
This makes a boy grow up feeling emasculated, weak and scared. If they grow up short/ socially awkward/ scrawny/ ugly etc it adds to that feeling. Especially if you’re small, the disadvantages other than rejections from women are getting beaten up by bigger kids, rejected from sports, less respect from peers, and professional problems as they grow older. It is virtually impossible to avoid the fact that all of this will impact a boy negatively and largely shape his future as a man for the worse. If you try to overcompensate for physical drawbacks, you get the dreaded Napoleon complex label.
Me and many of these men have a mental paralysis and fear of both women and sex/ intimacy. These types of men often bash themselves and look up examples and justifications for their insecurities to further confirm why women are scary and we should stay away to avoid pain. It is genuinely very terrifying to me and I’m not alone in this. There’s not enough discussion about this, if any.
Perfectly stated my genesis why I became an incel. But sadly, men health problems will never matter.
Most incels were always outcasts. Boys who have some kind of shortcoming in their physical parameters are especially prone to this. Same goes for autism. People grossly underestimate the damage that these kinds of experiences have. They fail to see how such boys become deeply fearful of social interaction and that fear is far greater with women because they already know they will be rejected and rejection as a sexual being is far more painful than simply rejection.
I was even physically gifted and got encouraged in sports, I was just both socially awkward and emotionally sensitive, which made it worse because in hindsight it just made me feel like a tool and not a person (getting emotional in sports is a big no no even as a kid, consequences for being emotional was quickly internalized by me), and because it was from an early age it got ingrained into my personality to an extent- I was the person who is just supposed to do what I’m told and not much else. And now I’m the stone cold, unemotional doormat and detest it every second. Can’t take compliments because it makes it all feel even worse, but that’s also my fault for being emotionally unavailable, I guess.
Best book aimed at curing this mental paralysis and fear :
Masculine Meditations: Your Future Girlfriend Wants a Spiritual Badass (The Unconventional Dating Guide for Introverted Men)
@@stevensmith1349 I didn't know that a book cures years of social exclusion, ugliness and lack of experience. Nice to note it.
The society is a threat to society.
You do realize some of the people that have committed some of the worst crimes in recent years. IE mass shooters are (mostly) incels by category if not by affiliation.
#fact
Anarchocapitalism ftw
gamers rise up
@@erikquintanilla3974 *fist bump
Comments like "why many incels would rather bond over failure than over trying to improve", perfectly embody why no one is dating and men dont bother with dating, we are sick and tired of being blamed for other peoples inadequacies and being told its all our fault.
that is ridiculous. the issue in 'failure' here is reception by the counters (i.e. out of span of control). any 'improvement' would play into latters' agenda, and squeezing that juice has been found, and reported, unworthy of abundantly now.
Wait, no one wants to fuck you. How is that because of their inadequacies?
Our Western societies are divided between people who would like to be kind, but are too burdened to be so.
And people who could well afford to be kind, but can't be bothered.
BOOM!
I don’t see it as incels becoming threats, I see it as a symptom of a culture shift that we aren’t ready for nor would we like where it may head. We are simply too short sighted to see everything this could bring.
Many books from 1850 to 1930 tells you exactly whats in store, try Next Million Years
Its not the we are not ready for it, it is a cultural sickness, decay, decadence, degeneracy.
If enough men feel like there's no point in contributing to society (which is a growing and real possibility) you'd witness some ghastly shit.
@@Vladimyrful Exactly. Men are inspired to get up to work every day by their erection and prospect of getting laid. Once the cost of women gets too high (if not impossibly high) men just choose porn and unemployment. Those women will pay in a big way for their shameless standards as they share Chads with 7 other women on average, and have 2 abortions each.
@@Vladimyrful That wont ever happen, those men are long gone, WW1 & 2 made sure of it, those genetics are wiped out in totality. Its only the docile that are now left. All they need is something akin to food, water and a 6ftx6ft square to be sated. Men didnt know the transactionality of the world(men/women), we were truly stupid, but now that we do, its out there and undeniable, we recoil in stomach churning disgust.
I've worked on myself to the point where I could get a girlfriend if I really wanted to (I'm 25, got in great shape, fixed my finances, have my own apartment in a nice area, etc), but now that I can have it, I don't want it. I observe a lot of my friends relationships and it seems like girls are more annoying than anything. Maybe I also harbor some resentment because they didn't want me before, but I genuinely don't feel any hatred towards women. I kind of just like my chill life where I can do as I please, I enjoy my workouts, hobbies, friends, etc. Maybe it's just a phase or maybe I just haven't found the right girl yet, but all I know is I'm chilling right now and I'm happy
A relationship is most often a coping mechanism. A means of feeling as though one has value. You no longer need one of those.
Yep, you’ve been redpilled, my friend. 🤝 Congratulations. Welcome to a life of peace, abundance, freedom and stoicism. 👍
Maybe get a couple girlfriends before giving up.
While relationships might be a cope
Having someone you can rely on and they can on you is deeply fulfilling and at many points in life/ history extremely important
People who are willing to do favors for each other survive longer and stronger than those completely on thier own
Having a proper relationship is one of the biggest challenges but also one of the most rewarding and transformstive experiences I've had. It's taught me a lot about myself that I could easily gave avoided. You can have as many projects and hobbies as you like, you're still just running away from something.
Maybe I'm weird but there's definitely "bad pizza" when it comes to women. I'd say at least 50% of women I would not want to have sex with at all and would prefer to go without. I've tried having sex with a woman I wasn't attracted to and I pretty much was unable to get it up.
@@Winterascent rancid, vomited, digested, re-digested etc several times... and like for real food you sense when it's not fresh at all and it's been in several trash bins.
The ladies have been saying this forever.
I used dating apps for a couple weeks before realizing how toxic they were, but in that time I probably swiped left (or right? Whichever the rejection is) on 95% of the women. If it was just easy sex with zero work I might have lowered that to 80%. And that's with age filters, so this is of the women in the most attractive age group. So yeah, women aren't all a bunch of models. Lots of dyed hair, tattoos, hidden fat rolls, hidden kids, and airbrushed faces.
@Lisa Fenwick how am I a volcel? My standards are 0.
Well, you are not an incel in that case. Not that you've identified as one, but still this is a major difference. You have sexual expirience with women, so your smv is certainly nonzero and you can have options. Also, there's a stigma that relationships are some kind of holy grail which fixes live, as well as there's stigma against males that if you have no sexual value you are worse than trash. All this stuff combined alone skew perception of incels that any pizza is better than no pizza
I loved this episode! Please have him back on in the future! Thank you!
Single guy here, 33. Far from an incel and make decent money (72/year) but he’s right about buying a house as a single person. Without student loans (I’m not bitching about them and saying the government should pay them), it’d be a lot easier but it’s definitely not easy to afford a house on a single income. You can do it but you’re not gonna end up being able to save much, if any for retirement. I’ll admit, in my 20’s, I didn’t know what I wanted to do and was lost. I wasn’t ready to date and wouldn’t have blamed a woman at all for not wanting to date me. But now that I have my shit together, it’s difficult to find a woman who has morals and goals who isn’t bitter against most men. I’m a nurse so work with a lot of women and the single one’s either have a high body count and are immature or married with kids. The term “incel” takes a dig at men specifically but there are equally “incel-esque” women out there. There are good people and there are bad people from both men and women. There are also amazing men and amazing women. It comes down to the person more so than just the sex.
"Why don't these guys try dating older women." C'mon dude. Older women generally are less fit and attractive. Less fertile so if you want to have children that's out. Have more relationship baggage. Have even more partners than younger women do. And likely already have kids of their own. Which you're expected to make an emotional, financial, & time investment in. That's assuming these older women will actually even lower their standards.
Personally it’s the dignity aspect. Yes many men including myself like older women. However they tend to be the same women who would reject you when they were younger and had more options. No man wants to be viewed as a less exciting safe bet fall back option once women have had their fun with the real men and got their hearts broken by them. It’s not easy to practice in reality, but your dignity is more important than anything else.
@@gibememoni for physical reasons and that they’re more mentally mature, but I still avoid them due to the humiliating aspect of being the fall back option later in life for them
Exactly. Idk why people propose these BS band aid solutions which isn't addressing the core issue. Many guys just want to have a normal life, start a family, and have kids. Why is this too much to ask for? Older women are less likely to provide us with kids, and secondly, if they actually made rational choices in life, majority wouldn't be single in their old age. How can anyone think this group such a catch to young men wanting to start a family?
34:02 he must have been saying something different, because he would then contradict himself here
They kinda do for Third World studs they meet in tropical beaches! 🤣🤣🤣
The whole incel phenomenon makes me think of a quote from Michel Houellebecq's novel "The Possibility of an Island":
"Show men endless images of beautiful models and actresses and singers, show them endless images of beautiful, slim women engaging in sex with enthusiasm, tell them that a world of uncommitted and marriageless sex is the norm - then, for reasons they don’t understand, slam the door in their face.This is not a prescription for long term stability."
What's changed? Demographics. We had what you describe in the 1970s and '80s too. What we didn't have back then was predatory Afro-ethnic males competing with low status white males for sex with lower status white females.
@@humansubspecies There's a lot more than just that going on.
@@MrDanno2 Yes, of course. Another thing affecting y'all young male prospects for sex with white females is no wars. In the 1970s, 80s, we young males benefited hugely from the post Vietnam War. 56,000 males were taken out of the sexual maketplace. Those of us who were left, had our pickings of the females. Say you were a moderately high status male, as I was in the 1980s. I dated perfect 10s, frequently. Whereas in the current environment, I'd have to downgrade to 6s and even 4s and 5s. Life sucks for y'all young males today. You're getting smacked from every side. All I can say is I'm glad I was in the sexual marketplace in the 1980s and not today.
Houellebecq is such a proto-incel and I guess I must be one now because he's the only fiction writer I'm able to read because I can't relate to anything else. Each and every one of his books brings me closer to suicide though, ''Sérotonine'' was a really tough read.
@@humansubspecies I've noticed that too. But sadly as a black woman who wants nothing to do with the males of my community it benefited me for Becky to want tyrone. Freed up a brad for me! But with all due respect, these are the lesser of your women who seek tyrone. The middle of my community have no power and control no resources. Who wants that? You have to be mental to accept a lesser man.
I would like to see Chris have an incel on the podcast and have a deep conversation.
Perhaps not an incel but TFM would be an interesting discussion
@Nemesistyx I think it's dead end, because even incels have constant arguments who is true and who's not
@@jaredmello I second that
I'd like to see Chris have Thinking Ape on the podcast
Incel is super unattractive dude. Like this guest hes unattractive, i will not be surprised if hes incel
I always find it interesting how different Chris is with guests who are from the UK and Ireland. He seems a lot more relaxed, more so a chat with a coffee or pint rather than a super clean and professional chat (I enjoy both!)
I think there is an inherent warmth British guests embody along with a shared sense of humour
@@scottbarnett3566yes. Everyone feels warmer with British guests.
Would it be better to have children you don't really want? 😮 I, together with many many more, chose not to have kids. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Natalism is dumb.
"Men are going to run through girls", this is a devastating truth. As a single celibate man who is finally being window-shopped by women in the dating market, I know I will have the capacity to go through 10, 20, 100 women to satisfy my regressive insticts. if I adopt and appropriate this lifestyle, I am hurting men and women by making the problem worse.
My boys: No matter who you are or where you are in life, the goal is to commit to ONE. That doesn't mean "trying out" a few first either. Don't make this problem worse for your fellow man by jading women by stealing sex from them. Every guy gets one sex partner for life; this is the ridiculously high moral standard we have to keep in order for our society to not collapse. The fact that we have this opportunity at all is a gift.
Women won't commit to ONE so why should any man it shouldn't work only one way
Bravo! You and men like you are rare gems and true kings! "He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls." ~ Proverbs 25:28
Genghis Khan disagreed, and he formed the largest contiguous land empire in history. How much land have you conquered? The purpose of life is to suffer, then grow from the suffering, then take pleasure from the growth. That pleasure includes setting up the infrastructure for a network of booty call babes.
The way of life you suggest is the axiomatic opposite of what evolution has decreed to be our lifestyle. The best of us win, and winner takes all. The rest of us suffer until we either grow to exceed our competitors, or die. There is no shame in death along the path to greater life, only in failing to try.
Marrying one woman is not success. Society would not collapse as long as you have established avenues for upward mobility through the hierarchy; give the new blood hope and keep the old guard from growing complacent. One day you will understand. Man cannot escape his bestial nature, nor should he try. It's a force that should be harnessed, however ugly it may appear, rather than be suppressed. Evolution and gods alike would have it no other way.
@@brianmeen2158 I understand the problems of valuing lifelong monogamy in a STRANGELY WEIRD culture but the fact is we are making things worse for everyone by expecting sex from women simply for dating them when that is not how women are wired. If you want to take the problem seriously, then take women seriously by taking sex seriously and try to abastain until there's real commitment involved (i.e. marriage so it's a bitch to bale out of just when thigns get hard). People think Religion made these rules. It didn't. Natural evolution did.
@@leedunkin3338 Marriage is very easy to get out of today. The legal structure is not the same is it was 60 years ago, old timer.
Moreover, in the modern era, if you refuse to sleep with a girl who wants you to, she will refuse a follow up date. It's a sign of disrespect today, not a positive affirmation of your noble, pure intentions.
What most incels have in common is crushing loneliness. - That is their primary problem.
I would say the situation that creates incels is a threat to society.
Women look at Leo DiCaprio dating younger women as completely laughable and indicating something is wrong with him. Not that he must be "doing something right."
@@zumazuma568 it's nervous laughter you'll notice how most of the women criticizing are old women who are single or just older women in general. It's probably a deep seated fear that their husbands will leave them for a younger and prettier thing imo
@@zumazuma568 there's no stuck in his teens...younger women are simply more attractive objectively speaking youth is an attractive feature in women. Trust me as a men I would say over 80 percent of men feel this way. You could have a 60+ year old man in a happy 30 year long marriage and he will still want young attractive woman
Leo is all about living a life of pleasure since he can! 🤣🤣🤣
@@rgonzalo511pedo
I don't think you can parachute in and study incels from the outside. If you're happy, healthy, and well-adjusted you just won't get it. Costello makes several mistakes in his time here that make me question his methods and insights. Is what he doing any better than anthropologists working in Africa a century ago going "Man, aren't these natives WEIRD!?". It's the same condescension and misunderstanding.
I was young and frustrated before 'incels' were a thing, but I TOTALLY understand the mentality. I feel nothing but pity for them, and really hope they find a way out (the vast majority do, no doubt).
To Costello: the incels you looked at have higher than average levels of desire for two reasons: they aren't getting any (DUH!), and they skew VERY young. What they are experiencing is totally normal and is felt by young men all over the world, all across history. Let's not pathologise it simply because the internet makes it visible.
This guest was great. Well-spoken and clear-minded.
Hes incel.
I wish he addressed the issue of race more. He seemed to skim right over it. Maybe it's such an explosive issue he doesn't want to touch it. Non-whites who can't get sex from white women are not incels
He's one of the best speakers I've heard on this. He's able to speak in a very unbiased attitude. He seems to understand quite a bit.
Dating older women IS a “strategy” for many guys (ngl I am kind of in this bracket) but the reality is that older women dont actually like younger guys on average and that makes it hard. At best it expands your dating pool a little bit but it is unlikely to find an older woman who will tolerate you long term as a younger guy.
well, the issue is older women know that younger men don't commit them and will be there just for s*x/experience. Older women aren't attractive psychologically, especially to incels and conservative men. Having an older woman is like an unfair situation because now he doesn't care about love and s*x and cares about your status, wage etc.
The younger guy can out perform the older one easy. I've had married women come onto me just because I was around more often then their husband's and I was stronger, faster, fitter even though I never was exercising and these women were only around because they were my grandparents caregivers. Makes no sense actually to want a soon to be dead old guy as the best option
I've been in LTRs with two women who were 15 years older, and at least in those cases, it's not worth it. They had more time to accumulate depressing lifestyles, were fat and without the energy to do anything about, generally expected me to do all the work in bed, and had to deal with the constant irritation of going through menopause. Even though I had low self-esteem and considered myself lucky to be with any woman, one of them had concerns I would finally be a normal guy and pursue younger hotter women. I didn't because I'm a sadsack who won't approach women, but a lot of guys do that.
TBH women's standards have increased so far that even that doesn't work. For men out there who think at the very least they can get s3x with an older women think again. You will be rejected for the same reasons that women your own age are rejecting you. The cutoff is still quite high and if you don't make it which 30-35% don't your sht out of luck
Not true.. older men are usually looking for a caretaker.. lots of older women prefer younger.
Chris mini rant at the 1:21:00 mark is so spot on
Great discussion, been looking forward to this since the clips came out.
What an amazing interview. Thanks for this.
As a gay man that is a fan of Chris' podcasts, I used to listen to most of his interviews EXCEPT for those that dealt with dating, because they were all about heterosexual relationships, and what advice did I need there? Well, I realized I was skipping more and more of his podcasts because they were about that general topic, and so I decided to go and see what all the fuss was, like with today's podcast on Incels. I realize now that the general topic is about evolutionary biology and psychology, and that applies to everybody. I've learned a lot about my own motivations and what makes me tick at an unconscious level where nature rules more than nurture. Knowing my weaknesses is the first step in shoring them up...
As a gay man do you think you have the same biological ticks you think as men do for women? I’ve asked some friends about this too and it’s interesting
These conversations are incredibly educational and enlightening, even though I'm also not attracted to women. I've learned so much from these interviews.
Yep you've got to know what your worst tendencies are, so that you can be better than them, and that takes having the inner strength and daring to face your Shadow in the same way one faces one's fear in the Litany Against Fear, but like with the Laffer curve it's counterintuitive to most people who will go a Harkonnen route and wonder why the more they tax and collect at gunpoint the less revenues they get, just as they reject their Shadow, shove it in a closet like the Solitary Confinement is where it belongs, and it's that rejection and vilification which fomments what could be again just a skeleton in the light, into a conquering Balrog.
I am one of the weirdos whose natural inclinations are oft backwards from the norm, when those with S.A.D. have the gloomies I'm bright eyed and bushy tailed, where some are just fine making sure others suffer through something especially unnecessary suffering simply because they did too, in knowing how a thing hurts or js wrong i am loathe to the very idea of making someone else hurt or go through even the suffering I did that was necessary and taught me lessons becuase it is still suffering/hurt. Where others run and revolt at their psyche's Shadow, I delved deeper and the only way beyond was jnto and through, I did the feat of jntegrating my Shadow roughly a full year before I even learned in AP Psychology about Karl Jung and his work.
I wish I had better insight, or vocabulary, to help shorten the way for others especially those in particular need for it, more than that in terms of Shadow Integration. When it comes to how to be pefectly fine alone with one's self, I am a natural utterly useless on how others might get to the same place, when they can't stand themselves and then because of that end up meddling with people.
Good on you man! More people should behave like this.
I never read past comments that start “as a gay/black/woman/etc”
In the olden days, inability to find a wife, seeing lords or other high status men with harems, would lead to lots of unrest in the society, bloodshed and violence.
For generations men have been taught from being young that any violence is wrong so now that hopelessness, grief and anger is mostly focused on themselves. I think the violent incels are the outliers. Self castigation and suicide is much more common
It only takes one incel to shoot up an elementary school.
are you implying that men should take women by force? Even if i kill the leader of a harem then what if the women don't want to be with me, should i keep them in chains?
@@andrews902 obviously not. I was pointing out that due to societal change and changes to the education of boys the outward expression of discontent is channelled differently from mobs on the street to suicide. Lonely men are way more likely to see a flaw in themselves and suicide than they are to get violent with others
@@loganblackwood2922 honestly at this point it is all pointless tbh.
It's all about genetics, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Women have every right to choose the best for them. I don't even hate women. Most incles don't hate women, they hate (rightfully) themselves and the guys getting all the attention. In the end we all die so who cares....some win in this life and others lose and that is life i'm afraid
@@andrews902 But if you were able to kill the leader, you would become FAR more attractive to many women. This solves your paradox.
Maybe we are having difficulty, but perhaps many of us are recognising that there really is a shortage of datable pleasant women, and men are reacting accordingly. Deciding, instead to live the solitary life, rather than settle for a unsatisfactory relationship. There are so many unhealthy, mentally unstable, unattractive and ideologically corrupted women out there. It's just not worth the headache most of the time. Why risk your financial stability and mental state? Why is it, that when women are single, they are celebrated as independent and empowered. While men, on the other hand who are single, are regarded as pathetic losers? It's an absolute joke ....
To be fair, men and women alike are sometimes seen as losers for being single. I think the attitude many women have towards men is just generational trauma passed on from the previous generation. Just like a woman making the next man pay for the sins of the previous lover. I can't be bothered to deal with it sometimes. There are exceptions out there, but it's very rare...
I recommend when coming to Northern Nevada the men to wear
casual clothing for the high desert,long denim bootleg denim,boots,and long sleeve button up shirt.
@@brianmeen2158 It's not taboo, but being the eternal single person makes u look deficient after a certain age. Family is def a perk long term.
Amen brother
It's simple demographics. But nobody here wants to address the elephant in the room for fear of being labeled a raaaaaaacist. You now have Afro-ethnic males in the sexual marketplace pressuring white females for sex, and if they refuse, the white female is accused of racism in social media. How is a low status white male supposed to compete with that? 30 to 40 years ago, they didn't have that problem to contend with.
If a woman truly wanted to, she could have a body count in the 100's. Most men don't get any action today
Does anyone have a link to the study that showed 5% of women would have a relationship with a man who works part time or not at all? I've got a lot of feminist friends who harp on about how men should start becoming stay at home dads, with the women being the primary breadwinner and I'd love to have some evidence to dispute how much women actually want this.
I've noticed for years that feminists will tell you what women want, then exclude themselves with a "I'm just weird like that, I can't help it". The man feminists tell you women want is essentially the man they know they SHOULD want but none of them actually do. I'd like to see that study too.
What people say they want and what they actually respond to are two different things.
hey Jack im only n of 1 but i can vouch my partner was stay at home and sometimes worked part time and i worked full time.
@@JadesFitnessBucketList That's interesting. Do you think that's true of your friends too, that they would date a stay at home dad? I don't have any opinion on whether or not men should be stay at home fathers. Either way, I just don't think most women want a man who earns significantly less than she does.
Multiple women have tried to make me a stay at home dad. It’s a trap for her to be in control. It doesn’t work since gals have no leadership skills.
Chris, when are you going to have at least a couple of incels on your channel, and hear about what is like to be an incel directly from incels?
More and more people are talking about incels, and because of the general and popular preconceived idea that it’s all bad and grim about these people, they are being demonised, mocked and stigmatised. Then there are individuals who are ‘experts in the matter’, they get invited to speak for, against or about the incels of the world like they have some sort of authority of representation.
I’m 47 yers old and i have been an incel all these 47 years, do you think anybody is interested in my opinion, my lifelong experience as an incel? The answer is no. Why? Because i don’t have some Phd diploma on the wall, but mainly because i’m just a useless and pathetic incel, what could Chris Williamson or anyone else learn from someone like me, i ain’t got a fancy diploma of being an incel.
Based wizardcel. Absolute mad respect for you and for getting that diploma, while Stacies and Beckies were getting their spines rearranged in community college.
Lived experience doesn't make you an expert. I'd much rather hear a neuroscientist talk about addiction than some junkie or alcoholic. If you really think that you have some insights, then share them online and people will react accordingly but all I'm seeing here is a grown-ass man victimizing himself and bringing nothing of substance to this discussion.
@@nackedgrils9302 Interesting how normies insist on science when it is convenient, but disregard it at any given point in time when it comes to dating, where they only ever brag about their own experience.
@@nackedgrils9302
I never said i was an expert, i ain’t got a phd diploma in incelibacy, i only have, according to you, a worthless lifelong experience of it. I don’t know who you are but i wonder if you have such low evaluation of your own life experience (whichever that might be), or the lifelong experience of other people, or this graceless evaluation only applies to me, a grown-ass man who, again according to you, has nothing of substance to offer, apparently.
Not sure how you found self victimisation in my comment when i hardly even introduced myself, let alone giving hints of it. I live a good life, a debt free life, i have everything i need and so much more than that, yet you were so quick with projections and assumptions. All you know about me is my age and the fact that i’ve been an incel all these years, that’s all, yet you were lightning quick to mock me, discredit and dismiss me. Not very mature of you. Is this how you relate to people in general? I hope not. Maybe it would be worth for you to take a step back, take a minute and analyse your attitude here and your line of thinking, because your rushed judgment and preconceived (common) idea of me is unhealthy and unfair.
If i wanted to know what is like up on the moon, i’d much rather speak to at least one of the twelve people men that actually been there, than listen to experts such as Lawrence Krauss, Brian Cox, Neil deGrasse Tyson, etc. But again, according to you, their moon experience is worthless and everything they would have to say is of no substance. And yet, they’ve only been on the moon for just a few days in total and not for 47 years. Maybe they have a phd diploma in moonwalking, i guess that would also make them experts. After coming back to earth, the whole world wanted to hear about their very brief moon experience, even more so the experts.
‘A man will never learn that which he already thinks he knows.’ Plato
Why would he need to do that? incels are not rare at all, they are now 30% of dating age males. Everytime you go to the grocery store you pass by probably 10 incels. They're everywhere
Brilliant discussion! 🚀
On the dog aspect - I think it's certainly a foot in the door as far as conversation starters go. I generally keep to myself in public, but with my Siberian with me, everyone and their brother comes up to meet my dog and talk to me. It was a bit awkward at first, but over time, I've come to enjoy the small talk.
Getting a dog is how to learned to talk to strangers. Works wonders if you let it
@treeghettox That is a good point - I don't use my dog as a prop, I love the critter, just so happens that it comes with a bit of an aura about it. The key is to just get yourself out there. If one is setting themselves up with the notion that it'll get them girls/laid, then they're missing the mark IMO. It's like a muscle, gotta start with the bar before you can start curling plates.
In the 70s when I was a little girl, my single uncle's used to take me to daytime university events, like sporting matches. They later confessed I'd been a great chick magnet. I do remember lots of pretty girls fussing over me.
@@DadsCigaretteRun attaboy! 😁💪🏻👍🏻
@@thereisnosanctuary6184 That's part of the problem. Young women are kept away from young children, and viewing men in a parenting role, and instead told children are undesirable and men are incapable.
My partner and I have been together since 15, married at 32 and neither of us have ever wanted children. I have mental health issues and physical health issues that make me hesitant to contribute to the gene pool 😅. Also for my own sanity... I'm focusing on creating healthy habits and fighting against my health issues. Children is just not appealing for me to add into my life.
However.... I 100% wish girls would stop being told to be a "boss bitch", I hate it. I hate feeling like I'm worthless if I can't keep up with those women, or that I'm less than when I love to take care of my husband. He works hard and deserves to be taken care of... In all ways... 🤣😅.
But he also equally takes care of me and supporting me throughout my issues. I miss the nuclear family 😒.
The nuclear family was always transitory, its a FAKE, to begin with, there is no such thing, its always been extended family or single powerless slave.
what is the actual medical definition of mental illness, once you dig in you will be surprised, like all the modern words thrown around dont mean what they are supposed to; trauma is something that you got in trench warfare during WW1, PTSD is something you get in war due to long periods of fight/flight and doing or seeing horrific bloody things. By extended/ long periods i mean months of it, not 3 minutes.
That's a very Darwinian attitude. I applaud you for taking that stand. I wish more people would consider the demographics of mating.
@@eddie-ni5ox I'm not sure if I'm entirely understanding of your points. Firstly, are you attempting to say only war veterans can suffer from PTSD? Because if so, I suffer from complex PTSD. It is generally a "re-wiring" of your brain when it experiences similar trauma multiple times.
During my university days, we learnt about the complexity of mental illness and the fact that people can have a reaction (resulting in PTSD) from a secand hand story being told to them.
So I'm sorry, but if you are saying veterans are the only sufferers you are highly ignorant to the research and literature refuting exactly what I think you've proposed.
That’s great you found something that works…but I don’t think there’s one “right” way. There are also plenty of miserable people with tradition relationship dynamics as well as happy ones, and the same for dynamics seen as “unconventional”.
I don’t at all that it’s the fault of women…but it is tougher for men to find either one that works while women have an easier time finding what adheres to their preferences.
Loved having children in my early twenties. Poor and happy on my husbands one income. Did a degree and had a career in my thirties when the 4 of them were at school. Now I adore my grandchildren and have a life full of joy.
@scary hellhole thanks for the laugh 😂👹
@scary hellhole I think you might just be coward.
@scary hellhole when did u become antinatalist?
@scary hellhole it doesn`t matter, so why wouldn`t you tell me
@scary hellhole Spotted the troll. 🧌
Thank You for mentioning Alex Date.Psych and for speaking with William Costello. These are the kind of people that will help you understand the experiences you and I do not live.
@@thinking-ape6483 cognitive primate in the house!
Also given that things can be misconstrued online. Is this a happy to see me here you or a different you? 😂
@@thinking-ape6483 he watches and gathers data just like anyone else. It’s only a matter of time as Alex gains more traction. And I’m glad he is
The fundamental reason why we have a rise in intentionally childless women is because we've repeatedly lied to women over the last 30 years with the following talking points. Number 1. being that their career is most important. 2. They should focus mainly on their career. 3. 30 is the new 20. 4. Their 20s are their fun years. 5. Children are a burden financially and mentally. 6. Their 30s are the best time to have children, if at all and 7. They should be allowed to be promiscuous and go crazy. This mindset has allowed 30 to become the norm for women to have children.
All of these lies have in part led to the rise of Incels as well as the coming Fertility Crisis worldwide.
Or it could be that time and time again men have proven to women that they are not reliable. So women decided to get the degree, become single mothers or not and depend on our own selves. Men are the leaders of this world "supposedly". By default men should be leading by example. When you cannot depend on the leader of your household you learn to depend on yourself. We are simply not putting up with men's bs by choice.
@@SC-sn3xs Yup! Blame the men for the reason why you women doing what you're doing. Not Hollywood, the Mainstream Media and Social Media constantly manipulating your minds i.e. being the shepherds guiding the sheep over the cliff.
Connect the dots. Plenty of men have been weakened for this same reason as well. Playing videogames, watching porn, eating junk food, etc. Still, many men are on self-improvement, myself included and not doing that crap anymore and are looking for good women to get married and have children with, but too many of the women want to just have fun in their 20s and not settle down and have children until they're over 30 years old.
So with that being said, what's stopping you women from seeking out the good men, even those who are average looking, but have all of their other stuff in order and marring and having kids with them while you're in your 20s? What are you holding out for?
Because there's a finite time you have and the men will continue to seek out the young women who will want to get married and have kids young.
@@Kirby5413 good I'm glad you're improving yourself, more men should do just that and I'm here for it! 👏👏
And that's cute, your little tactic of trying to gaslight me into believing my time is running out has zero affect on me. Genz and millennial women are collectively choosing to not have children. As a result the population of young people has been on a drastic decline because simply put, most men are not worth having children for. 🤷🏽♀️ 20 years from now when us genz and millennial hit this marvelous "wall" y'all speak of, the generation of "younger women" will be slim pickings because we are not producing new "18 year old girls" for you older men to "seek out". By then 18-20 something's won't even look your way because the famous brick wall has come for y'all too! 😱😱 But keep believing your delusion that you will be forever young and be able to attract hot 18 year olds at 40/50.
We are simply not producing them for y'all and y'all mad that we no longer desire the fallacy of marriage and burden of bearing children only to be left to raise them by ourselves with little to no help from father, continuously cheated on and abandoned like most men collectively choose to do, but of course red pill will have you believe this too is women's faults. 🤣🤣 Lastly, we make it a point to nourish our existing relationships with family, friends, coworkers and pets to ensure a fulfilling life and not actually die alone like y'all LOVE to gaslight us into believing. Women are more often then not surrounded by their loved ones during their final stage on earth and also taken care of because women spend our entire livelihoods taking care of each other. Also a friendly reminder that it is women who collectively have always taken care of children, dying parents, elderly, sick and dying men while men hardly ever take care of themselves, their kids nor their dying parents. But y'all aren't ready for that conversation. Anywho, goodluck with your search in finding young women, might I suggest buying a passport? 🤭🤭
Your list is truth, not lies.
Are you intentionally parroting Peterson point by point?
We are having less children because it's way too risky in too many ways right now.
The monogamous, nuclear family is the absolute LEAST efficient and effective way to raise our young. Two idiots in a house raising kids by themselves. Riiiiight. Sure, that's how we've always done it. Eye rolls
Again, my only complaint is that the video should be longer! Always good content
They didn't address the issue of race. Came real close a couple times. But then quickly skimmed over it. Probably too hot an issue for the Irish professor dude to address. Ireland is super woke and sensitive about racial issues.
Going off of all the criteria I would have put myself in that category a couple of years ago. The thing I think got me out of it (and it's a constant battle to pull myself out) is to one focus on the things that I can control and to two take some time and energy and direct it towards someone else's happiness even if it means going against my own a lot or a little.
Kindness is no failing. It is one of the most attractive qualities in a man. Carry on, sir.
Getting out of your head by doing for others is a pretty sick move. Nice job
Good job Mike, keep up the good work. I am probably a lot older than many on this tread and I like to see men going for it, whatever it is.
If you have too little within your control, you will never be happy no matter what you do because your circumstances are unnaturally bent against you. Like I am forced to live with abusive parents that are emotionally abusive as an adult but were physically abusive as a child, as well as them preventing me from going to school, stealing my money, preventing me from having friends, and doing other things to take away my opportunities to ever leave them. Due to the economy, I can never move out within the foreseeable future. It never began.
great conversation. thank you both
i love this guy thanks for interviewing him!
Again. Two men women would find attractive thinking they know what it's like being treated like a friek by women. Unless you experience what it's like being an incel you shouldn't presume to know. Even the sub average women these days DO think they're entitled to Leonardo Decaprio or Henry Cavil or Tom Hardy. This IS due to modern culture. I'm a divorcee, I've been told I'm "not unattractive" probably average tbh so I'm not an incel myself, but I can see exactly where they're coming from. 👌
Date older? Thats self sabotage not strategy.
Ok, you don't expect women to lower their standard. Why doesn't it follow that men should raise up to the new, now higher standard?
I’m 23. I probably wouldn’t get married unless the laws changed. Too risky without mandatory paternity tests and a set amount of child support/alimony.
First hurdle is not getting #metoo’d. Then the second hurdle is not getting divorced, which is a 50/50 bet. 70-80% of the time initiated by women. Then my kids would be raised in a broken home and destroyed. Nah. Change the laws or no dice.
Lmao
@@samwise1790 what? It’s true lol
@@honeysimon838 I dont doubt you believe its true
@@honeysimon838 pick the right partners, discuss these topics with them. Don’t be a coward and hide from your duty
The only thing he's wrong about is the 50/50 on getting a divorce.
It depends on the amount of partners the woman has had. You've got 83% chance of the marriage lasting if she's a virgin. Once it gets past five partners... The odds are not in your favour, to say thee least.
The world changed in the 70's .
Some women like me had opportunities and we took them.
I became a Union Electrician.
Women changed and a lot of men didn't.
We didn't have to get married and depend on a man.
Beautiful to hear.
My ex boyfriend and I were evicted in august. He only had enough money for one night in the cheapest motel because he gambled the money that he was supposed to put towards a new apartment. After being on the street for 3 days, we got in a fight and I walked away. Suitcase in hand. *this is in a rough area of philly* I notice a well dressed handsome man because he was the only other white person on the street. Dude saw me struggling and obvi asked to help with my bags and offered a ride (I accepted even though I didn’t have a destination) Turns out he owned apartments in Philly and gave me the keys. Then he dropped me off and came back with brand new bedding, towels, toiletries and food from target. He gave me $200 to buy new clothes. I think being an naturally attractive young woman is magical. Like I met him and barely said anything to him and he lifted me up
I didn’t tell him anything about my situation except I was inbetweenn apartments. He wanted to fuck me so I got SCARED even though he was hot i felt too vulnerable ya know? So I went to the strip club and a pilot gave me $500 to drink champagne with me. And Then I said fuck it and went to stay with my mom because I haven’t been home in over a year
I hope that you learned a lesson of not dating loosers or developing dependence on someone else.
@@synewparadigm that is definitely a valuable lesson
so what does any of this has to do with this video ?
female privilege case in point. Also quit making yourself the victim in your failed relationship because at the end of the day that gambling unstable guy was totally your choice. then they help you got afterward would happen to a guy literally once in a million year but it's routine for women. Your former boyfriend has to make it the hard way. But hopefully when he saw how easily and quickly you jumped ship from him he never made the mistake of getting a committed relationship again.
Great interview!
Excellent as always.
I like the way William shows off his degree certifcate.
incels are not the threat. The threat is what created those incels and its the same thing that will prevent people from being able to have families and live within means. so yes will can have all their current fun at men's expense but eventually there will be no society left to support that.
Laissez-faire economy is what created most of the present day problems, including this one.
this was really eye opening
This is absolutely fascinating
No. Narcissism is the new jam.
The loneliness, wanting to be appreciated, respected, and accepted by women... I'm not even talking about love. Just wanting to be 'seen' by the opposite sex, not being invisible. This is a very primitive desire.
Desiring from the people we are attracted to the same amount of interest we have for them. I think that's something that ALL humans deeply need, and the majority of women don't even realize it, because they KNOW they are wanted and desired by men, they know they are not invisible to men, they see men going toward them everyday. And if a woman somehow not yet aware of that, she will once she downloads any dating app.
Most men do NOT have this by default. I believe this is the root of the suffering of a lot of men.
Bruh, if this wasn't about sex then you could get your needs met by being "appreciated, respected, and accepted" by other men.
@@jaspermartin7444 he literally said by the opposite sex, to the ones we are attracted to.
Older women do not want young men. I know this is a shocker for young men who are being taught that they are some sort of trophy for older women.
There are not that many single older women around and the few that are out there have their own individual reasons for it happen. Some women like some men are not confident and lack the ability to be out in the world meeting people.
Modern society has fueled a new type of behavior that feeds into that lack of confident where people live their lives through algorithms that are their only contact with the outside world.
They only understand after they lose their fertility and are alone.
Being seen by the opposite sex is not dangerous for men. It is for women. I wish men would understand that instead of thinking their lives are so much harder than ours.
Very interesting and eye opening talk
Outstanding piece..
How much of this is also caused by SSRI medications that decrease sex drive? People underestimate how much antidepressants reduce interest in sex.
Interesting idea. Tons of women i know including my best friend are on ssris. Mix that with birth control meds that screw with hormones and there's a good case to be made that it could be a factor in this current cultural war between the sexes.
It would be intersting to see. It killed my libido until I quit them. Wonder if its the same for woman.
Plastics leeching xenoestrogens into our bodies long term don't help. Our entire environment is estrogen polluted, we're all basically poisoned.
@@coltspiller4446 happening to me I’m on bupanorphine for chronic pain
SSRIs are the modern day equivalent of the lobotomy
Involuntary celibacy is still in line with social norms, the bigger concern will be the rise of voluntary celibacy. When/if men lose interest in sex, society will be close to collapse.
Something I rarely ever see brought up about this subject is how often these kinds of men suffered abuse as children, in the worst ways possible that no kid should ever go through.
This makes a boy grow up feeling emasculated, weak and scared. If they grow up short/ socially awkward/ scrawny/ ugly etc it adds to that feeling. Especially if you’re small, the disadvantages other than rejections from women are getting beaten up by bigger kids, rejected from sports, less respect from peers, and professional problems as they grow older. It is virtually impossible to avoid the fact that all of this will impact a boy negatively and largely shape his future as a man for the worse. If you try to overcompensate for physical drawbacks, you get the dreaded Napoleon complex label.
Me and many of these men have a mental paralysis and fear of both women and sex/ intimacy. These types of men often bash themselves and look up examples and justifications for their insecurities to further confirm why women are scary and we should stay away to avoid pain. It is genuinely very terrifying to me and I’m not alone in this. There’s not enough discussion about this, if any.
OR the frustration is so severe they lash out in other ways (like join radical/revolutionary movements that seek to destroy the status quo by any means necessary)! Either way, having an excess surplus of sexually frustrated men is BAD for social and political stability!
This is a really good analysis of a growing problem with isolated young men. Thank you for actually tackling this with an unbiased approach. Since the concept of a bitter, complaining incel "loser" is revolting to women, and rightly so in many cases, so many people will try to cash in on the social credit of shitting on incels. Again, the concept of "incel" is assanine to me since celibacy for me has always been by choice, but I can understand how isolating and lonely it can be as a young man living in modern america, which is largely devoid of community or culture.
Celibacy isn't a choice for men.
You know what’s a threat to society? Normalizing everything and not having boundaries for what is and is not acceptable behavior. Fix that problem first.
How we got here, via Evolution, history and Religion:
It's about the effects of technology on humans.
Jordan Peterson once said, "I'm not sure our culture will survive the invention of the birth control pill." I thought that was a pretty profound observation. From an evolutionary point of view, the basis of all sex is up, to the female. Religious people were early intuiting this. That's the biological deal biblically described in Genesis 3:16. It is a biological contract, an evolutionary contract, encoded in religion.
Men had their role in a primitive society, women had theirs.
Trouble is, technology and female choice upended that basic evolutionary deal. The basic deal was, women give men sex and children. Men protect and provide. Once adequate technology was invented, it eventually gave women more economic freedom. I think marriage evolved within religion in order to restrain female sexuality, by encoding it in religion.
The reason female sexuality was the thing that needed containing by religion, was obvious biology that Bible writers intuited: men want sex more often than women, so there is a permanent sex shortage, sex is more or less and it's controlled by women. Sex with no birth control technology meant a huge biological burden on women. And from the male point of view, women who cheat impose an unsustainable biological burden on the cucked man. So sexual restraint was ingrained in our religions and culture.
However, in sex it's always women that have the choice. Not men. Men always got less than they wanted. Recent computer data on singles dating confirms the evolution we are living with: about 80% of females are pursuing the top 10% of men. Hypergamy is wired into humans. Religion constrained that. Now it's out of the box. Turns out: most men want most women, but most women don't want most men. And the men women want least are the incels. It was recently discovered that 25% of married men are in sexless marriage. This means most Incels are actually married.
We need a new biological deal. Women and technology change makes the old deal irrelevant. We need to be realistic about this.
So the point I'm making is it's not men who threw out the old biological contract between the sexes. It's women. They now have no interest in sexual fidelity as a social norm, the birth rate has crashed in advanced countries, the number of sex partners has increased, women are increasingly spending their 20s going from bed to bed, avoiding pregnancy, giving men no children and using up their youth, for their own pleasure.
The weakness of unrestrained sex as a cultural norm: women evolved to have children while women are in their 20s. Nature gave women a short biological window where they are high value. It's related to fertility. Paul Joseph Watson has a video on it. Called No More Eggs. Smart women take advantage of that biological window to bond with men, make families. This imprints on the men, a strong attachment to his family. If women fail to do so at a fairly young age, her choice diminishes her chances of a good life. Because: Men have far less need to stick around, the fewer the offspring, the higher the general sexual availability of modern life. Also: Because: female sexual market value is heavily restrained by time itself. It declines very rapidly, past age 30. That's a feature of biology, of nature itself. It's not a feature of sexism. If a woman has: A very few sexual partners, then a woman gets married, she's quite likely to have a successful long marriage. If she has 5+ lovers, she is very likely to fail to pair bond successfully with a man, very likely to have an unhappy marriage that ends in divorce. That's what the data says. These facts are just showing us that nature has patterns we must live with. Or else our lives fail. You don't even need to be religious to know how this works. Religion merely intuitively figured it out, long before science did. Women do themselves no favors, by behaving badly. Neither do men. But women, more so.
Professor Sam Vaknin has the data on that in his video Where Have all the Wo/Men gone? He'd make a great interview for this channel. Lots of research, knowledge.
Why it's important to figure out, women are actually in the driver's seat, when it comes to sex:
The easiest way to figure out who controls sex and how much they control sex is asking an obvious question: Is rape bad? Yes. All civilized people, men and women both agree very strongly. It's very bad. But why, exactly? Lots of reasons, but the extent to which everyone agrees it's bad, is the extent to which sex is controlled much more, by females.
It's biology. Same in all mammals. Females are the ones making choices. Comes out in biology offspring numbers. In modern humans about 40% of men leave offspring, but about 80% of females leave offspring. Women are the choosers, the picky once that keep the human race healthy with their choices.
Who is to blame means asking who is controlling this? Under these modern circumstances it's a bit hard to put the blame on solely men, for our current sexual degeneracy and the breakdown of moral decency. It's what women generally want. Not all, but most and the leading voices in our culture. They can walk down the street, smile and talk to a man and get sex. Men can't do that, most of us. I'm not Brad Pitt.
I still remember when Christianity was the accepted norm for most Americans and Brits. Today 5% of Brits go to church weekly. I'd rather live in a Christian social order where sex is restrained, it seems a much more sustainable point of view. I prefer that type of culture. Christianity was built on sexual restraint being basic to the social order. But women are no longer interested in that. The old Christian America was better, but it's gone for most people. But the key is: it's gone because that's what women want.
What do women want? Unfortunately its largely unrestrained hyper-gamy, and various sundry bad habits. Where is this going?
All this may eventually end our civilization. In Europe, the Muslim population, is booming. Christian origin is in a nosedive. Don't blame the Muslims. Not their fault. Douglas Murray wrote The Strange Death of Europe. Should have been called The Death of Christian Europe. Islam is still very much alive. Christianity bought into feminism, so it's dying. Feminism is incompatible with Christianity because it breaks the basic sexual bond at the hear to Christianity. The Christian religion is near death.
Prognosis: Cultures and religions with high sexual restraint are likely the only ones that survive evolution. America and the West seem doomed. If you think Incels are a problem, wait till people figure out, where this is headed. Incels are the Canary in the Coal Mine. 🐦
“Why don’t these guys date older women”
Personally it’s the dignity aspect. Yes many men including myself like older women. However they tend to be the same women who would reject you when they were younger and had more options.
No man wants to be viewed as a less exciting safe bet fall back option once women have had their fun with the real men and got their hearts broken by them and now just want an easier option once the pickings are slim. It’s not easy to practice in reality, but your dignity is more important than anything else.
That's a tight trap you're in, sir. Emancipated yourself.
Well said. It’s not just about dignity also, women who have lead promiscuous lives going form chad to chad all their youth do not make viable long term partners once they are older and looking to settle down. They will always try and monkey branch to a man they see better then you and will divorce you for 50% of your stuff. Nobody wants to risk a relationship with these kind of women when there is so much liability these days. Women who have fried pair bonding from too much flings are danger.
Amazing discussion. Almost too much for one sitting. Highly recommend
Marriage is a big no.
Too dangerous. When woman can divorce you for anything and take half because of “living standards” it’s s big no. Oh and Amber Heard. For real.
I have the same focused as Woman. Working. Buying property. Travel. Hobbies.
Prioritizing money over bloodline seems like a bad evolutionary strategy.
@@yeetdeets
I don’t think money is the issue. Marriage simply provides no safety net for men. Money is a practical reality of food shelter and diapers. Unless being on welfare is good for the bloodline. All that processed food and dirty drinking water.
Bad schools. No future.
Men also don’t want to contribute to a bloodline only. They also want loving and supportive wives and a place in society. An unhealthy society uses men only as a paycheck and disposable garbage. Their children are nothing but cannon fodder for the elite in war or to be brainwashed to be lower class puppets in industrialized positions.
@@Noumenon4Idolatry Prioritizing safety over bloodline seems like a bad evolutionary strategy.
@@yeetdeets
Prioritizing the bloodline over oneself sounds suicidal and evolution sounds predatory.
Maybe better conditions for breeding would be better for all involved. Not every species slaughters the males to procreate. Win win situations should exist between fathers and their family. Relationships should be mutually beneficial.
Cheers 🥂
@@Noumenon4Idolatry Evolution is predatory, that's literally the entire point of it. All these people love to preach evolution but they all act as if they live in a moral society guided by religious principles.
Which also teaches you should have a family...
Real evolution cannot comprehend modern society.
If I was in my early 20's today, I would probably fall into the Incel category. I had the experience of starting out relatively normal - had my first kiss with a girl when we were 11 (it was bad, but I wanted to get it right the next time). We moved away shortly after that first experience to a new neighborhood, and new schools with a lot of unexpected social pressures. _Beckie's and Chads existed back in 1980's too_ . I came from a country school into an upper-middle class neighborhood. I went from a middle of the road social status to bottom of the totem pole overnight (it was the inverse story of Footloose. Most of my friends became the guys I shared the computer lab with (we had one Apple II and a Commodore PET with a dot-matrix printer). The type of girls I would have been attracted to at my old school had much higher social status and standards at the new school and I wasn't in any of their cliques - more like a social pariah/weirdo who wore western shirts from the thrift store instead of IZOD and Nike. Long story short, I didn't date again until I was out of High School - and I had no experience with girls since I was 11. When I was 19, my first "real" gf wound up treating me so badly due to my inexperience (in my mind), that it made me distrustful of women. I actually wound up hooking up with the girl I kissed when we were 11, but there again - thanks to my inexperience, she broke it off. Figured out later I had partial ED from damage sustained in a bad skiing accident when I was 14, but when you're 19, you're suppose to be "ready at all times" right?! I descended into deep depression and anxiety - going through a few "platonic" relationships until finally, when I was 23, I met a girl a year older than me - who had the patience to deal with all of this psychological and physical damage. We wound up having a good (not always perfect) sex life - and we've been together for 31 years now. Viagra works great, but when you're already damaged from past experiences - sex is *never* a carefree act. Point is - there are a lot of factors that can lead a young man towards incel-dom (not just because you don't look like Chad).
You were not an incel, just a kid who didn't date in his teens. Most high-schoolers don't even date. It's not like it was in our grandparents day.
Something I have experienced with online dating is as soon as I say I am interested in something long term or whatever you want to call it they always seem to lose interest immediately even though I specified it in my description and it was the same for theirs too
Exactly.
That's weird. That's literally the inverse of my experience.
Despite all the bullshit about "hook up culture" it's mostly one way.
Men are using those apps looking for girls to fuck and ditch. I'm guilty of it myself. I find some girls I think are cute enough to screw but not cute enough that I wanna keep them and bring them places and around people I know. I know I'm a piece of shit for that. The main thing it seems like MOST not all but most girls want on those apps is a long term relationship.
And I believe alot of incels are just so defeatist of mind that they don't even try to really improve themselves.
I dude with a 4 or 5 face (hard to improve) but an 8 or 9 body will get plenty of fucking dates. She may not be super enthusiastic about it but it will get ur foot in the door.
I've befriended a few of these girls ive slept with and have collected a lot of intel about what they want.
Most of them want the cutest guy they can get to be their boyfriend. Which we all want so I don't blame them.
If a girl is willing to go out with you and u don't turn out to act like a weirdo super autist or a psycho then more than likely she will want to be your girlfriend.
Well at least people talk to you to begin with.
Dude. Even in the times before internet you didn’t tell women you want long term right away… you’ll scare someone off with that. You go slow and see where things go, it’s takes MONTHS before you know if a partner is life suitable. If you are coming into the first convos and saying you want a life partner you sound insane and scare them off. That’s always been true.
Really good one :)
Does anyone ever think that maybe women haven’t had the choice to be “the stay at home mother” anymore. Men have a lot of power in a woman’s life (everywhere). Damn there’s so much to say about this. I had to get a job with 4 children to support. 4 children from the same man I was married to. After years of abuse we finally got away. I took whatever job I could. We were married when we were 21. I didn’t go to college, had no training to do anything. I cleaned houses, worked in office buildings, was a delivery driver, cleaned offices, worked as a receptionist; every job I took was part time. No health care. On food stamps. I eventually took a flagging job, now I’m a utility locator. Life isn’t fair and it’s hard. Not everyone gets to go to college and have easy choices to make. This is probably too simple but I am simple minded. Get the heck out of your house and make yourself be productive whether it’s community involved activities or work or whatever. Society today is insane to me. Everything has to have a title or a name to cover up the fact that people just don’t want to be in a working society. There’s excuses for everything. If someone has a mental health issue, then not getting help to manage their feelings or understand them to try to function in society is then the burden for others to figure out and study because someone identified as something causes chaos in public places then injures and kills people because they feel awful is insane to me.
Has anyone considered, the higher rate of violence in relationships where the woman earns more, may be due to the woman treating her partner worse because she doesn't need him.
I have noticed women treat me differently when I have/control something they need/want compared to how they treat me after they I have given/performed that which they desire/require.
That is why women need stronger partner.
yep, obvious. briffault's law at work.
Yes, she subconsciously resents him for not earning more than her. It's hardwired in their biology that men should provide and be the breadwinner. And when society tries to change this, it just causes problems.
@@marym3355 what do you mean by stronger? More willing to withhold from his partner? "Treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen"?
One definitely must be willing to engage in conflict, I've even heard it said the intensity with which couples fight (physical violence excluded) is less important than how that is dealt with after.
@@theflamingone8729 Women are wired to be attracted to smarter, funnier and financially stronger men than they are.
If she can smell a weakness in a man she becomes more abusive and looses respect.
In the introduction to this video, there is the following quote:
"learn...why many incels would rather bond over failure than over trying to improve,"
This is totally fucked up. It presupposes that incels need to improve. It never considers the idea that women are FAR too selective. It never bothers to come to the simple conclusion that the average man is already good enough for the average woman. It is ENTIRELY up to women to come to this understanding. It fails to realize that hypergamy is relative and the defect lies in the basic idea of hypergamy, which is to pursue the top 5-20% of men while ignoring the rest. Hypergamy will ALWAYS exclude vast numbers of women. Hypergamy is the root problem, period.
As for dating older....I was open to that. It did not work. Frankly, I think few if any incels would actually find partners by dating older. Older women tend to simply be more selective, not less. Part of the problem here is that women prefer somewhat older men. They might want a night of fun with a younger man, but ONLY if he is the kind of man lots of women want.
Women need to be selective because they are responsible for a child. If we need to lift YOU up because you can't bring anything to the table AND raise a child... guess what. We won't choose you. So yes. Incels need to improve to get a woman.
Men should work on themselves, though, and not assume other people are just screwed up. Yes they might be screwed up, but still work on yourself anyway. Be the best man you possibly can be.
That should be the standard regardless of how screwed up modern women are.
Frankly, I think its wrong to suggest anyone doesn't have a need to improve. That's only possible if you're perfect and nobody is. Constantly working on improving yourself is the best thing anyone can do with their lives.
I also agree that said person may be fine enough and the women have insanely high standards. That doesn't negate the goal of focusing on improving oneself regardless, and if the women you meet don't appreciate that, then walk away.
@@jrconway3 Of course we all need to improve.... But once that becomes a precondition for dating, there is a really big problem since the vast majority of people are, well....average, and therefore suitable mates for other average people
As for walking away.... I did.... well, sort of. To be more precise, I flew away. After spending a relatively short time in the Philippines I confirmed my basic premise, that men are already more than good enough and that the dating mess is a direct result of the child stage known as hypergamy. Here in the West, I was below average, had damn few dates and no bedroom fun for a very long time. In the Philippines, it was easy to get dates and bedroom fun was usually on the menu.
All the blame is put onto men. The gaslighting of “just improve bro” is unreal. There is nothing wrong with improving oneself but it’s no guarantee that you will succeed. The checklist is very big these days. I myself am 6ft, fit and decent face but I recently started balding and that balding is enough to disqualify me from the modern dating market
Yeah, people always assume that Incel=Morbidly obese, autistic neckbeard living in his single mother's basement with poor hygiene and diet.They can't fathom that they can also be average Joe or even good looking guys.
Just look at the data for the increase in obesity rates in America by decade. The percentage pool of non-obese potential partners may have decreased by a third, or these days, even by a half. On the other hand, my personal observation is that a very large percentage of substantially overweight women I see are proudly wearing wedding or engagement rings, so they are not being excluded from the marriage market at all. If people could talk honestly to each other, I suspect many women would be showing little sympathy for men who claim to not be able to find a girlfriend, because they believe many of these men are insistent on being only with women who look like models. Both sides, men and women, are not facing a real shortage of potential partners. Both sides are facing a shortage of partners they think they deserve. There is a huge difference.
After growing up in an extremely abusive household I decided not to bring in children and very happy with that decision.
Pretty sadden about the critique about men dating older. Dating older doesnt solve the issue of having a desired mate, which age is a consideration.
Options count. Quaility counts more.
Yet y'all cry and complain about how evil women are for only dating Chad's. Y'all don't want to be forced to date undesirable women. Yeah neither do we!
@@SC-sn3xsYou seem to equate Incels with obese neckbeard living in his mother's basement,which isn't really a common denominator.
What about voluntarily celibate men? Most women that show an interest in me show so many red flags within hours of meeting them, that I don't just walk away, I run...I have also never been into aggressively pursuing women. If they are interested, cool. If not, cool.
Doesn’t that mean you don’t have sex? I don’t understand
@@DadsCigaretteRun haha, no...It means that I am happy to wait for a woman that isn't emotionally and/or mentally unstable to come along before I put my penis into them or become emotionally or physically involved with them.
I value my mental health, and respect myself enough to not get involved with the wrong women.
Unfortunately, dating in the modern world is a minefield, for men and women. A real lack of emotional awareness in the general population.
@@DadsCigaretteRun your username is appropriate.
OP’s point is that too many men who are voluntarily celibate are being cast into the incel bucket. Many MGTOW have elected not to associate romantically with women for pragmatic reasons. That makes them voluntarily celibate (otherwise known as… celibate).
@@realistic_delinquent I was genuinely curious because my understanding of celibacy was you choice not to engage in sex (catholic priests as an example)
You sound like a natural mgtow. I was exactly the same before I discovered the idea. Not that I particularly adopt that label now but it was interesting and, in a sense, reassuring to find that thousands of other guys had noticed the same things.
I loved everything about this. Insightful and interesting. I hope you have him back on
Excellent guest
The male self deletion rate is not really considered a problem as far as I gather nor is male wellbeing in general. The question we all seem to have is that since it is only cared about when it effects others i.e. they increasingly delete other people along with self, does this mean we have to care about the wellbeing of boys and men to some degree?
So happy to hear someone discussing these critical issues in a fair and public way. As a society, we must address how we have effectively “castrated” a group of straight males. It’s awful.
Women refusing men sexual access is not castration. Men were never entitled to sexual access to begin with. The myth that men have the right to sex needs to be dispelled. Sex is a privilege, not a right.
@@sarahrobertson634THANK YOU
@@valemorena You're welcome. Men feeling "castrated" because women don't want to have sex with them is the most ridiculous, irrational, overly emotional mindset on earth. But these psychos will get violent over it. I just saw a documentary about a man that stabbed his girlfriend 17 times because she turned him down for sex. These males are absolutely unhinged.
@@User-hq6rr The whole podcast is about involuntarily celibate males threatening society. Being involuntarily celibate means that women will not have sex with the person in question. So here we are back at square one.
@@sarahrobertson634 get out with your narrow thinking. Everything doesn't revolve around women and fucking women. It's not your space . Leave it.
Thank you both!
Just getting really good at what you are already is your best bet in my opinion. 46 years old I don't have an evolutionary psychologist degree. But I've got another 50% in lifetime. Focus on what you're already good at if possible. If you want to be very go for it but becoming a stand-up comic isn't going to improve outcomes in my opinion you'll either be wanted or you won't.
From what I always hear from married men, it is mostly married men that end up being incels after having kids. Does not being a married incel count as being an incel?
Smart comment.
Well... if she aint putting out you can always just put in the bare minimum ;)
The most involuntary celibate are married men.
@@DnDnight Except that statistically married men have more sex than single men. Married men would just like more sex than most married women. But if you ask them honestly they still get more than when they were single.
But at least they have accomplished the biological need to reproduce their genes.
Awhile ago you had mentioned looking for a dating coach for women to talk to, I think Matthey Hussey would be a phenomenal pick for that. I think that would be an excellent conversation!
@Lisa Fenwick will do!
Insightful and fair minded
A very good debate gents.
39:05 - An additional angle to the incel issue. Lets hypothetically say that the guy is wonderfully well-adjusted to the point where he's like 'Cool, if I'm really shut out of the dating game I can still hike, I can still pursue spirituality, I can read Aaron Clarey's 'The Menu', I can be my own man' - he still has to grapple with society demoting his social status and what that does to his earning potential, ie. their showdown for survival at that point is with the ever status-conscious bucket of crabs and all of the people who want to take every single one of their traits and say that if you're lower on the socioeconomic hiearchy than I am then you have no right to peace, freedom, or happiness of any kind - ie. so long as they're in workplaces or careers that are competitive they're likely to get bullied, at which point they either have to change career field or have to become enough of an arsehole that they didn't get to be their own person after all.
Yea that's the divide, you're left feeling like an outcast in the world, only interacting with it to aquire the resources you need to survive. Then going back to your safe zone. It feels like tarkov but in the corporate office xD. It is what it is, I'd you want a friend, get a dog.
If*
@UC4C6lveBMV89CTb_xgsuBvw lol yeah dude seems miserable. Most red/black pill content creators seem that way. Their messaging isn't necessarily wrong...just exaggerated...and their personal lives are not what they project to their audiences
@@andrewzembar3869 Agree!
@Lisa Fenwick agreed, he's good.
That's why a conversation including men and women together is the best way to understand and solve problems together
how do we solve the problem of women not wanting to take accountability for their own faults
From my experience (I'm 58) few women are remotely interested in understanding men.
@@cavy369
Just like you do when men take no accountability for their faults. And there's more than plenty of those
Men would and have never listened to women so you wouldn’t get very far
@@wyleecoyotee4252 there's only 1% of those. Women are at least 90%
The Oppression Olympics - 😂😂😂 love it
*throws hands up* “everyone’s a victim”..😂
Interms of the 60/40 split in upartnered men in the past, a lot of times people don't think about inclusive fitness. A lot of times there are siblings that have rolled in helping raise their siblings as well as their siblings' offsprings. I'd imagine in times and palaces where resources were scarce and competition was high, families would invest mostly in their eldest, so the role of the younger siblings would be to help raise the offspring of the eldest. American culture is kind of like this, but things are so competitive that people don't have more than 2 kids. In comparison, in cultures where there was a lot of work to be done to survive, but competition was low, like agrarian societies, the eldest child would be used to raise their younger siblings and their younger siblings would be the ones to carry on their genes to the next gen.
The best way to navigate this situation is to read Marcus Aurelius' meditations.
Ya boy Dr. Peterson remarked at the choice not to have kids, and I’m paraphrasing:
‘Ok, you don’t want kids, you wanna enjoy your time and your career, great.
Fast forward to when you’re 45+ or even further to retirement, now what?’
I think he’s got a point myself.
The greatest joys in my parents life nowadays are their grandparents so far as I can tell!
Lots of childfree women at 50, 60 etc are very happy. They write about it all the time on Reddit posts, etc. We can all have different lifestyle choices my friend
No-one believes them, though. It's just cope.
@@Aeriesan I know two women in such a situation. One has kind of adopted a family and grandchild. The other is isolated and depressed, probably not by choice.
I'm not sure why it's confusing tobmen that come retirement age, we would like to not die of starvation because we chose instead to have the baby of any man who wanted to impregnate us. We'd like money in our retirement accounts. Just like you, do. Kids would be nice. But not so nice Im willing to destroy my life.
@@Aeriesan Agree. Life isn't all about popping out kids. Not everybody needs to propagate the population. We already have an over population problem going on.
Men 👨 and women 👩 are struggling because the dysfunctional status quo 🤑 are telling them to upgrade their quality of hustling instead of just doing the right thing. ✅
very gd convo that provided lots of info. few contradictions and things i didnt agree with but no need to mention those