@@chost-059 It isn't even close to dead, and that's not even a matter of optimism. Tf2 is simply too popular with too much money sunk into it for anyone to let it die anytime soon.
@@8088mph Oh yeah, those dots that are easy to hide and often land on surfaces that you physically cannott even see without stepping into their sightlines or because they're looking at the skybox and who's visual design makes them actively hard to see on a lot of surfaces even when you're anticipating them let alone mid combat in locations tht you may not have even anticipated a sniper in for a wide number of reasons. Its a small dot that barely appears on surfaces and whos telegraphing only works with very specific parts of a level from snipers that arent very smart and who's existances does not actually show you were said sniper even is since it's not a visible line in the air it's a flat dull texture thats like a centimeter wide showing what their crosshair's on.
fair point, sniper bots are defiantly the worst out of all the bots but that doesn't mean they're the only ones. cheaters with use other classes to ruin the game. last month I saw a solider bot.
maybe your mind is warped by youtube, but every fps before tf2 had snipers, as did every fps after tf2, they could all 1 shot people it is political in a way because people who are anti sniper want to even the playing field so that other people can't succeed and enjoy the game, I'm a heavy main and I've never had a single problem with snipers, anyone with basic fps skill knows not to stand in the open against snipers, it is one of the first lessons in learning fps
@@datswassup9902 seriously. It literally just goes: (pop) "where the fuck did my health go?" (killcam zooms into sniper waving at you) *neuron activation* Achievement Get!: Get Fucking Good, Scrub! (You died to a sniper out in the open, you now understand how to position yourself in shooter games) Full disclosure for all you commies who think I'm just bragging up my main: I main demo, and used to main spy, I suck literal donkey cajones on sniper, and I get my shit rocked plenty by good snipers. Complaining gets you nowhere, suck it up and get better with the rest of us.
@@datswassup9902 holy moly a TF2 player that actually uses their head and isnt against us sniper mains! A heavy main no less! You are a gem! I will think of you everytime i encounter a heavy abusing his privilage of keeping his head. God speed you beautiful russian bear.
@@pumpyronaldrump_4417 it sure does buddy, it sure does....but atleast we can force him back by going in close, whisper in the dudes ear and call him every slur and/or insult you can conjure up within our deep, darkest crevices of our hearts before turning him into a pile of gore.
Gabber at times reminds me of a 1950s mob boss, who has you locked in a warehouse talking about how his favourite game is getting tarnished with the way he talks in these videos, and I'm all for it.
@@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87 They didn't play thousands of hours of sniper in one sitting man. The game's nearly 20 years old, dude's been playing since 2009.
As someone who hates sniper, I hate sniper, not the player. The player did their part to get good on sniper, good job for they, I clap my hands, but that don't remove the fact that I find snipers annoying. Does that mean I want sniper to be removed? No what the hell bro, sniper, even being some I do hate, is part of the "natural ecosystem" of mercenaries Scouts and Spies feed on Sniper, Snipers drop the uber, and the trolldier population get in check. Sniper can be both good and bad, just like any other class, I get PTSD from snipers as a Medic Player: I remembe the day of put my feet outside the spawn and get insta head shoot by a sniper, and I remembe the day a sniper saved me from a scout that was about to drop me. You can hate the class if you want, I do. But pls don't hate the player, and remembe, this is TEAM fortress 2, everyone is part of the TEAM and everyone is doing their best, or not, to help and support the team in winning. To all sniper players, a big fuck you and good shoot. - A guy who can't aim
When you say it like that snipers are very much like mosquitos, they are annoying as fuck but without them a large part of the local ecosystem will just fail
@@Lacheln-YO I am pretty sure Shounic ran a server where sniper is banned. He initially though heavy stack on payload would be overpowered without his counter but explosive spams by soldier's and demoman's primary is too high even against 300 HP class with constant payload healing. Also competitive 6's sniper do not exist unless stalemate due to sniper is only viable in stalemate situation, huge sightline and not chokepoint spammy map (which 99% of totally smart TF2 players choose 2Fort, Turbine, Hightower, etc. over balanced and cut 'ed sightline map like Upward or Badwater). So snipers can just not exist in TF2 and the game is still fine but less class variety.
@@michaeljonathan9715 I watched the vid, what I meant was although they are annoying at times, they are important to maintain a sense of balance in the TF2 ecosystem
@@Lacheln-YOsnipers are needed in any games. Melee/tank characters get a run for their money, but flanks decimate them as healers never target snipers. Grenadiers can easily push them back if they are healed but can struggle against melee, Healers need teammates, tanks need cover, melee needs flanking maneuvers. Its a wide ecosystem that dumbasses think they can break apart for personal gain.
8:23 Showing footage of you spawn camping on sawmill for your part on anti-sniper propaganda is better anti-sniper propaganda footage then the majority of tf2 youtubers could come up with
I guess we better start bitching about Demos then for their ability to spawncamp with complete and utter brainlessness. At-least Sniper spawncamping requires skill.
@@JeffarryLounderDemo has to be right in front of their spawn, you’ll only see him be able to do it on a couple of maps, sniper can do it from across the map from safety from any other class apart from other snipers, no, demo spawn camping does not take skill, and yes, sniping takes skill, but skill should not be the only limiting factor to preventing a match being unplayable by half the server
@@schweppley1614 And Sniper has to have view of their spawn. While he's scoped in on the spawn he's left vulnerable to all else around him. And in both cases you will mainly die if you don't know they're there beforehand. If you know a Demo's there, you'll bait or destroy his stickies (if they're in sight). If you know a Sniper's there, you'll bait his shot or dodge around and then duck to cover so you can flank him later.
@@JeffarryLounder"dodge" "duck" "bait" good snipers hit those shots anyways. also sniper is wayy better than demo for spawn camping spawns with multiple exits
They nerfed the Minigun in 2015. People parroting the idea that Valve would never think to change the core balance of TF2's classes because Gabber said so are as much of sheep as the people who want to nerf Sniper because their other RUclipsr said so.
@@moogobIin why didn't they nerf sniper in the first 10 years of tf2 development? The dev's clearly didn't think sniper had any issues with his balance if they never radically touched him all the way to jungle inferno. The reason why people say these sniper haters are coping is because all their points boil down to "the sniper is better than me at the game" which comes off as a huge cope.
From my point of view, the only problem I've had with sniper is just dying from across the map without me even seeing him because he's just so far away. That's it, when I die to him outside of that its because I made my movement predictable when this game is designed about hitting your shots and moving in a way that makes your opponents miss.
Playing against sniper is like playing a turn based RPG against a boss that one shots you and allways attacks first. You can only win if he misses. 100% of the outcome is in his hands and 0% is in yours, even if he dies
But isn't basically every encounter like that? Whoever hits more and better wins. Example: Scout vs Soldier, Scout is at an obvious disadvantage. He needs to hit more shots and be more precise. Going back to the case of Sniper: Be aware of him. Outplay him. Treat him like a Spy and give him the necessary respect of a Spy. Spycheck and "Snipercheck". And yes sometimes a Sniper is gonna hit you out of nowhere. So is a Spy. A Scout. Hell any Class flanking or outplaying you.
@@lustigername9377That's a comedically flawed argument, every encounter with another class involves counter play, dodge the rockets as scout and kill the scout before he hits down to 0. There is no "snipercheck", a spy can turn invisible and disguise, you can check surroundings for him and check teammates, a sniper can't do those and instead opts for being able to quickscope most classes in an instant, there is no counter play if the sniper hits that shot. A sniper can hit you out of nowhere, at any distance, and deal far more damage in an instant.
It's not a fad. People are realizing Sniper is broken because: 1. The bots making people realize Sniper's full potential. 2. All of the bad Snipers got better. 3. TF2 has received no balance changes since 2018. With a stable metagame, Sniper mains could freely get better at the game without balance changes getting in their way.
No, no. It's a fad throughout all the gaming industry: People despise skill expression. People are significantly less tolerant of being told they're trash than they used to be. These creatures are not valid humans.
ah yes, sniper is broken because: people are good at sniper and cheaters are using external programs to have an unfair advantage. If that isn't the biggest cope I've ever heard
sniper wasn't bitched about before because there was a hitbox bug that only really fucked him over. It was in the game for nearly a decade before being fixed. Think about that; all of the 2006 playtesters played with a broken, dysfunctional version of sniper, and he was balanced around that bug. Then, a decade later, it suddenly gets fixed at almost the same time as the game's final balance patch
Haven't listened to the video yet but of my 12 years of playing TF2 I have never felt ROBBED because of a sniper player. Okay this is a game where you can get a random crit and destroy anyone in that one shot, and I don't even mind that most of the times. People finding the need to complain about a class that really only becomes "OP" when the player is good is kinda nuts, it's not a competitive game as is and why are you min/maxing in this painfully borderline party game? Not to say balance isn't a factor in fun, it's really just not that cumbersome as people want to put out. Strafe better, play map knowledge, counter-pick, is logically the go-to but these people want to crucify the class and nerf it to the ground just like jungle inferno so that nobody plays sniper.
I think that the biggest problem regarding sniper is the playerbse mindset Everyone is mad, because they can't deal with him reactively while he is meant to be dealt with PROACTIVELY
finally someone who has a functional brain. Tf2 is a game where matchups arent what matters its not the class they are playing its the person controlling it. Any server can be dominated by a really good scout or a really good soldier, pyro demo or a good spy trickstabbing everyone. It is a game where the person behind the keyboard is what determines the outcome of a fight.
i think the most understated part about this discussion is the "hey are you fucking insane this would change fucking everything" part and im glad thats brought up here go give him a True
your argument makes a few good points, but they're buried under so much logical fallacy that it's hard to take it seriously. classes have been changed fundamentally before and (often) for the better, this includes: Pyro's airblast Engineers can move their buildings + upgrade their teleporter and Dispenser Spy's speed buff and Heavy's various rev-up buffs and nerfs. about the "Anti-Sniper propaganda", how are they propaganda? what about them is propaganda? you didn't bother to show their arguments and refute them. That first video you showed agrees with you, he thinks that TF2 Sniper is about as balanced as a sniper can get. Zesty Jesus' video was about how Sniper's quick scope headshots right now are as fast as a human eye blinking, and it should be a bit longer just so you can process what happened. does Sniper have to take risks? yes, as with every class in the game, but he does have lower risk as he's in the backline often. Does Sniper have counterplay? yes, as with every class in the game. like you said, Spy is a great counter, unless you have the Razorback. also forgot Pyro's Flares, they're good at deterring Sniper too, except when you have the danger shield. Medic's CC and Engineer's Wrangler are both OP in general, so that's something to add to the long list of what they can do. interactivity means "How do you fight this class as this class?" In a Scout vs Soilder interaction, the Scout has to dodge rockets and the soldier has to predict the Scout's movements. In a Demo vs Engineer interaction, the demo has to destroy Engie's buildings then Engie himself, and the Engie has to kill the Demo and destroy his Stickybombs. Sniper doesn't have this, it's the same game plan for almost every class. out-range them, headshot, repeat. Personally, I think he's somewhat balanced. he could have a slight rework at most.
@@EmanS117 Ah yes, the perfect counter-argument, I'm powerless now. you've rebutted and countered my argument down to a T. I will now throw myself off a cliff because I can't even compare to the perfect argument you've blessed us with.
(new addendum at the end) You say sniper is integral to TF2's design, but there is no shortage of anecdotes from TF Team members, even those from earlier in development, that just didn't like sniper and wanted some sort of rework to be done to the class. Listen to Dario Casali on An Evening With Nirvana, for example. Besides, people have experimented with banning sniper multiple times and no, it does not break the game. Sniper is not OP, yes, but he is just lame, and makes TF2 a worse experience for most other classes. With no hope of future reworks, I can't help but have a bit of sympathy for those who want to outright ban the class. EDIT: I'd like to thank people in the comments who made some really good points, but it has come to my attention (by RUclips addicts that recognized me under some other video) that the creator later brazenly made an hour long video putting up screenshot of my comment among others. I haven't watched it because frankly I'm not in the mood for Gabber's "TF2 Patriotism" nonsense, so I'll just discuss some of the points made in my comments now that I got reminded of it. Yes you are right. Saying a class is inessential because the game is resilient to removing a class is stupid. I watched shounic's video with the mindset that the players playing the rest of the 8 other class were having just as much fun, (I mean, I would? and I like the matches where nobody goes sniper) but maybe a lot was lost in the experiment. My bad. Maybe Dario is not the authority on TF2's game design, and taking advice of the creator of Goldrush is maybe not the best idea. But him saying Sniper was a pain point in map design says a lot. Hearing him say how 8 other classes are having fun in an environment only for sniper to ruin all that means one less unique and fun concept that could have been. How many horrible sniper spots get discovered in new maps? I bet if it was in a Dario map he would go back and fix it the moment he finds out. (even if to the detriment of the map) Maybe I should expand on why I find sniper lame and its counters piss poor, but I've already added more than what's reasonable to the tail end of a 4 months old comment. In some ways TF2's core (except the current matchmaking as seems to be the buzz these days) should be preserved because anyone else (even Valve) would screw it up and I get it but I don't want to engage with this person's channel any more than I already have.
dude you can that about a lot of classes in the game scout, soldier, pyro, demo, heavy, and spy i play casual games all the time where theres no scouts and no demos on the other team and i dont notice jack its just one class one
Sniper is integral to TF2’s design. You misunderstood Dario’s point. He was referring to map design and that when Valve made a map they had to consider all classes.
You must not pay attention to patch notes, because the Pandora's box of changing an entire class has already been opened. When spy was even more ass than he is today, valve buffed his speed in meet your match to be 320, in line with every class except scout, because he literally could not catch up to some classes. The same can be done in the other direction, where a class is too powerful and dominant, and could be given a slight nudge in the direction the class was intended to fill, instead of completely oppressing any area he inhabits.
@@adnan-oe8wm The percentage doesn't matter. What matters is that he then becomes able to keep up with every class except scout, where before he was unable to catch up to a medic. And the proposed nerfs to sniper are even smaller tweaks, like increasing quick scope time so it becomes harder to immediately do 150 damage at any range, or adding inverse damage falloff so one of his counters (close range) isn't rendered moot.
Could probably also add disguise swapping getting a 1.5 second reduction, and the Invis buff of 20% damage resistance and a 50% reduction on debuff timers.
@@czechboy1365 True. It just felt like an important instance of them changing what is "core TF2 mechanics" as speed is pretty important for every single class and isn't a minor change like +20 heath on extinguish.
To preface this, you make some good points, but they're so buried under multiple layers of logical fallacies that it's impossible to take this seriously. It's as though you've never done a college essay before and threw the whole book at Filmora Trial Edition. Summarize. Stop treating every single person who slanders sniper as the entire criticism anti-sniper groups are making. Or even as something worth acknowledging, in some cases. Ignoring every piece of criticism you've consciously ignored at this point, I'm just going to say that sniper isn't fun to fight. You may find it fun, and others might, but the player response to getting killed by a sniper is overwhelmingly dependent on how many hours they have as Sniper, themselves, in one of the worst bouts of mass-bias I've seen- no matter which side of the aisle is at fault, here. Every interaction rests entirely in the sniper's hands, be it your teammate's or the enemy sniper themselves. Every counter is dependent on the sniper _playing worse than you_ , and being good at _them_ requires a set of skills entirely different to what a vast majority of players have by virtue of the most popular and iconic gameplay elements all just not taking for Sniper. Every class, even *Heavy*, is far more dynamic in how they play, in an ironic twist given how restricted they are. Because sniper exists in it's own little island of functionality that encourages bias given being good at sniper rarely translates to any other class, unlike, well, any other class. Spy and Medic, the other two support classes, are only comparable on a surface level. Each can still benefit from any other playtime far more than Sniper can. Yes, sneaking around is critical to playing Spy, but he's not the only one who stealth can be beneficial for. Medic is the only class at all that has something comparable to the island of functionality Sniper has, but even then, the medic is just one, iconic support character as part of a trope across hundreds of games, with that general multitasking skill and communication becoming honed and applicable in all kinds of environments. You'd think Sniper at least has that- that same transferability across games other than tf2- but he doesn't even get _that_ because he lacks any form of bullet drop or damage falloff, which can even prove detrimental if you have honed muscle memory for aiming directly on the head. Once again being crisp in it's irony, Heavy is perhaps the only class with significant skills transferrable to sniper, because he is heavily reliant on positioning and tracking- much like Sniper- but the skills still don't translate because each one's end goals are entirely different. So in the end, Sniper is an Island unto an Island. 24:30 People don't suck, there's just a critical disconnect that's driving this wedge in the community. Just to be clear, I'll say it again; people aren't merely bad at sniper, he requires a set of skills so far removed from every other class that people either understand how to play them well or use Huntsman instead. You're not winning any favors, nor making any point by stating that people are bad at sniper. It's true, but not the actual problem at play, here. It's no fault to you that you like sniper and feel the class you've invested time into is being violated, which has overwhelmingly shaped your opinion when people make up points of their own, but it's plain to me that you're grasping at straws here. Sniper is going to eventually get nerfed. The question is if you want to actually participate in the community so it doesn't compromise the balance between, say, sniper and heavies, or if you want to remain stagnant. Because if sniper mains continue to shut down any argument against the class, they're not going to be given a compromise. They're not even going to be able to offer the insight necessary to make good changes in the first place. And _that_ is the problem that would deserve an entire hour's worth of my time.
The sad truth of the matter is he's just not fun to fight. Things can be overpowered and still be fun to fight or at least have fun interactions that come with it. I've been playing sniper more recently since he's my second most least played class and I've been enjoying him. I don't think he's overpowered I just think he's the most unfun class to play against in the game (which there has to be a most unfun class to play against).
changing the laser from a dot to a beam when aiming is probably good. even half life 2 had this with the combine snipers, pretty much every game dev has figured out that you need either a laser or scope glint, which is really more about player visibility. it's just so that you know you're in a fight with another player. a lot of these dogshit new maps have bad sightlines/lighting that are easy to abuse. but it's not THAT big of a deal, this is more of a map problem than a sniper problem. we need good flank routes and cover.
the sniper stands tall as a pole anyway, most times i actually see the dot before the sniper (even the good ones) we don't need a whole ass beam for noobs
i love how this guy's example of movement options being used to counter sniper is on the SMALL MAP WITH A HUGE SKYBOX LOL. you cant pull that on any payload or attack/defend map where theres at least ONE engineer or multiple teammates (happens every single game) because youll get gunned down in 3 seconds. the only classes that can reliably kill sniper is spy (most situations, unless he wears the RAZORBACK and he sits behind his team where you CAN kill him but you will die too since you will have to use your revolver) and another sniper. also saying heavy can use the fists of steel as a counterplay to sniper is just pure lobotomy, if you need an unlock just to be able to get out of SPAWN that doesnt mean you can counter anything about sniper, yeah sure you can now get out of spawn (needed a unlock for that lol) but if you want to do your job as a heavy and kill people you have to TAKE OUT YOUR MINIGUN LMAOOO. the engi "sit behind your sentry and shoot him with the wrangler" is so stupid because if YOU, an engineer, managed to notice the sniper before he noticed you and you also had the time to pull out the wrangler, and hide behind your sentry (which makes your aim on the sniper fucking awful since it blocks your view and now everyone can kill you while you are busy with the sniper on the other side of the map mid push) then you just got INCREDIBLY lucky.
It's almost like the game is called team fortress 2, and in order to win you have to cooperate with your team and be tactical instead of moronically bum-rushing the enemy. Also no, killing a sniper is not hard at all even when teammates are near, your entire problem is objectively a skill issue.
I think a lot of the newfound hate for sniper can be explained by the massive influx of aim bots and human cheaters. People now associate sniper with the frustration of having a game flooded with bots or some piece of shit furry with lmaobox installed and are, (potentially subconsciously), misplacing their anger onto the class itself.
What happens when an enemy sniper is doming me a lot? I switch to sniper and counter sniper until I finish having my fun. I do admit there's a huge case of main character syndrome in the community where the game needs to change to cater to the demands of those who take the game too seriously, especially in the comp scene. I mean the game we all enjoyed was changed a lot to suit them, fun deleted for everyone else.🙁
I genuinely think that big company-supported esports completely warped everyones' perception of how games should be designed. Competitive leagues should've always been exclusively community-driven.
Sniper would not be such an issue if Sandman was good. Like... yo! You surely could not consistently stun moving players but you *surely* *could* stun Snipers fairly consistently and then two-shot or give your sniper a free kill since these guys don't use wasd-keys very often. Everything in TF2 worked so well before comp community interfered. Everything worked like clockwork and everything was interconnected (Sandman countered Natasha and vice versa and so on) but now this interconnection is broken. Thanks to Soy Dane and his team. That's what happens when you don't let developers develop *their* game.
the suggestion sniper being poorly designed could be offset by reverting the sandman changes is the wildest take ive seen in ages. definitly underlines the energy on this channel 'stuck in the past, unable to deal with change. lots of delusional takes, tying things together like a conspiracy theorist and his pegboard'
TF2 sniper bad pootis good. Valve will never update the game again but I think they will magically nerf this class I don't like. Also I votekick snipers for being better than me because le wholesome fun or something.
I used to play spy, medic and pyro a lot and i got killed by snipers all the fucking time. Then i switched to playing soldier and scout and suddenly snipers only ever kill me once in a blue moon. I WONDER 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Some points are good but yeah the tone really comes of as rage bait and youtube drama but yeah i dont think nerfing sniper would probably change nothing as tf2 players would just find a new scapegoat
the only thing sniper should ever be nerfed for, is quickscopes. almost every god tier sniper exclusively quickscopes. you can peak for a split second, and you will be quick scoped. the laser dot on the wall telling you 'hey theres a sniper here' is useless if the sniper is a quickscoper., because he will just right click and kill you before you can even register that there is a sniper looking right at you. just reduce the damage on quickscoping to only killng scout, sniper and spy, instead of quick scope killing... oh look at that 6 out of 9 classes not counting demoknight
@@jrperry1611 We’re talking about quickscopes here, not hardscopes. And I mean, you can always jump the Sniper still, or just be a Spy, or do so many other stuff.
Somebody else pointed out that removing quickscoping would make hardscoping more oppressive because sniper is one of his own counters. The alternative he proposed is dropping the class' HP to 100 so that Scouts, Soldiers and Demos can OHK him in the same way, which sounds fair to me.
I find it more engaging when wide open field doesn’t feel like playground for my explosives but there is constant threat either from flanking classes from behind or from sniper from outer my reach
Hi Gabber, what do you think about several so-called tf2bers and redditors asking for a buff for the spy because "once it is discovered by the enemy it is practically dead" and suggesting to give it life or clock buffs, removing the smoke when it is disguised or making it have the same passives of the disguised class?
I've been playing a game called The Finals recently and they keep nerfing the invisibility into the ground and all I keep thinking is "imagine if they did that in TF2." people would riot
There have been class massive balance changes before. Demo's launcher went from 6 shots to 4, Pyro got airblast, and Engineer got building hauling. Lesser, but still very substantial changes happened too. Heavy had his miniguns globally nerfed at one point, so that you didn't do full dps the instant you started shooting. Spy got a massive buff in the form of getting medic movement speed. These are just off of the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more that aren't widely documented. Just skimming the timestamps in your video, I can tell your argument is dogshit. Hoping the opponent can't hit a moving target is not a "skill". Avoiding Sniper isn't "beating" Sniper. The counter play you're giving is as bogus as counter play for beating a gun in a knife fight.
There is a delay to human reaction time that is impossible to completely overcome, you can absolutely make a sniper flinch and move like you're not an invalid as counterplay.
@@shrimpchris6580 Wow. By completely emptying your shotgun you can buy yourself a whopping 3.75s of giving the Sniper a 50% chance to miss. If the Sniper is good this will not work, because they can simply wait out 1 of those 6 flinches. Flick headshots easily counter evasive movements too. As long as your cursor crosses the head within 1 or 2 frames of you shooting there is a very good chance the server will just give you the headshot. Doesn't matter if the target was changing directions while you passed them. This "counterplay" doesn't even make it unlikely for the Sniper to kill you, it just makes it harder for the Sniper. The Sniper still has the advantage the entire time and just has to hit their shot. They have infinite range and on demand crits, and you don't. Ultimately, you are just hoping the Sniper fucks up, with no way for you to win unless they do.
@@KLIXORthe Idk what to tell you, I've never been unable to deal with even the best snipers I've ever played against while just hopping on soldier, it's just not an issue most of the time.
@@shrimpchris6580 Wow. If you blindsight dive a Sniper he's actually very killable, almost like any other class. There's nothing for you to "tell me", because even more so than Soldier, Sniper lacks counters, but unlike Soldier, Sniper doesn't even have to take risks to get kills. The only way you beat Sniper is if they miss or you get the drop on them. Skill can mitigate the chances of both to an unfair extent. A good Sniper can still be killed while he pubstomps, but he can easily carry a team that gives him any frontline support to speak of.
@@KLIXORthe You can dive them in their direct line of sight 80% of the time if you don't move like a retard, it's just not possible for humans to prevent that. It can be annoying to die to a sniper, but it's just fundamentally not that different from unbalanced interactions with other classes and he just doesn't destroy a disproportionate amount of pubs or the main comp league compared to other classes, it doesn't matter how much you don't like it. His damage doesn't keep up with most other classes and he *is* vulnerable up close no matter how many super perfect god tier 100% accurate quick scope unicorns you make up.
having thousands of hours and multiple seasons of competitive under my belt, some of which being the 2nd highest league in highlander yeah no son, sniper def needs a nerf
I agree with most of your points and this is really funny because you are talking like an "older player mentality" would. I had some of the same points lol. I kept thinking, "wasn't he like fine for over a decade now?" What's wrong now? Why does the "high skilled" stuff need to be nerfed???
they always called the millenial generation the participation trophy generation but what we are currently experiencing is total clown world, communism has injected itself into video games, instead of becoming skilled at a game people want to have a safe space
My issue with "he is OP when players are good" Is it's just as bad as "he was fine when players sucked" Neither is a valid argument because he hasn't changed since then. If Sniper has some issues we only found now, they were there since the beginning. These statements fail to tell us if he's bad or not.
was gonna try to put a counter argument that while sniper isnt overpowered, he doesnt give players enough counterplay, but thought about it and realized every class in the game has plenty of counter play to him when hes not being played by a cheater.
i dont even like fighting sniper but banning him is stupid for 2 reasons 1 sniper sucks unless you have good aim if your aim is bad like mine is sniper might as well be a paper weigh 2 even if you are good at sniper its not to hard to fight him
do a vid on how b4nny single handedly ruined airblast because he was in valve's ear at the time and decided he wanted to turn tf2 into smash bros melee
well, there is always first. i disagree, i think sniper do need a rework. compared to other classes. he like one of the few who actually went unchanged for so long. don't get me started on his back shield items and unlocks. There is reason why i been using the Vac since i start playing the game. over 9 years by now. AND NO, no one told me to hate him. i hated him from the start, and i'm your pub sniper when come to skill level. not really good but also not bad (tho competent sniper do gets me)
Instant burst damage of 150-450 is... a lot, rivaled only by Demoman's sticky traps. Sniper is a *support* class, he's effective range shouldn't be anywhere near the enemies, yet he can still do 150 damage in 0.2 seconds. For example: I was in the 2Fort sewers and found myself face to face with the Scout, i was totally out of position, yet i won in an instant *with the ultra skill combo of* "m2 m1". In my opinion i should have dealt 50 damage and then died as i deserved, or was forced to use the melee. I think that Sniper could actually be fairly balanced... if crits on headshots were removed. Very low dps, 150 burst damage after 3.3 seconds of charging. That would force the Sniper into long range. But removing the reward for headshots would remove most of the Sniper's mechanical skill... That could be solved by giving some other reward. My suggestion is as follows: Remove critical hits for headshots. Refill charge back to 100% on a fully charged headshot kill. That would still allow the Sniper to instakill light classes, but only after a 3 second set-up time. But in order to kill heavier classes they would need to be damaged first, unless you want to charge your shot again. Hence a SUPPORT class. And this version of the weapon would also reward consistency... It's just more balanced without instakills.
"sniper is a support class" is not a good reason for one to nerf sniper and i don't like restricting what a class can't be in any game just because they're "dps" "support" "tank" i say, you were rewarded you hitting that difficult close ranged shot on the scout and the scout was penalized for not dodging/shooting you faster because despite how sniper discord is rn, he is still weaker than 8/9 classes at close range you proposed change don't make sense, you shoot the head and are rewarded with NOT killing them?! you gotta do that a second time?! what!? oh yea, that's real fun wtf
@@swagguy7515 Your first argument is fair, however... Dodging? Shooting me faster? It was a a histscan shot that took less than a second, it's untelegraphed and undogeble. And even if he did shoot me first, that would change nothing unless it was a random crit. It takes one shot from me and at least two from him. I proposed to remove crits on headshots entirely. Instead putting more focus on the charge mechanic. You would still be able to one shot light classes on full charge, and two shot everyone else besides Heavy. It simply requires more *setup time,* instead of being able to do so at any moment. However, since most of sniper's skill is based on aiming for the head, headshot mechanic itself can not be removed. My idea is: You charge your rifle. See a light class. Instakill. If it was a headshot, refill the charge. As such, be ready shoot again immediately after. If it is a heavier class, you should wait until your teammates damage them a bit, and then ideally go for a headshot to skip setup. Quick scoping no longer exists. Heavy now is a counter to sniper.
Yeah, ok. Our opinions are set in stone and no matter what we say our ways in set in stone. One thing though... "Heavy now is a counter to sniper." I will remember this line forever because it is hilarious. Absolutely foul. What is blud smoking? Haha
in all honesty sniper is annoying and can be a lil oppressive but ive never had the entitlement to ask for sniper nerfs. i just want my ambassador back lol.
i’ve said it once and i’ll say it again, good video. the no bullshit attitude and calling out the people who shot this game in the head makes for such an entertaining watch.
removing sniper from tf2 would be ideal: when playing against a sniper, you're not really playing against them. there is no battle, and being able to kill them from a distance is very unlikely unless you're a sniper. this is not the case in day of defeat, where a support can still kill a sniper with one shot from a large distance if he knows his position. rockeeters have the same effect in being able to neutralize, and not mitigate a tf2 sniper's presence and highly effective efficiency. tf2 gameplay's loop is majorly made in close-medium quarters, sniper naturally does not belong to this range of combat. the huntsman is the exception. i see no reason to keep sniper in the game, he does not fit in. i believe sniper is part of a fallacy, and only gets an exception because he is already in the game's decade+ old history. it also doesn't help valve had no clue on what to do with sniper, so they made items that make the glass cannon stronger while not making him directly weaker to those who would flank him and terminate him. (tf where they thinking?) he's a sore thumb that sticks out... it's not even a matter of skill or whatever. it's more so game design. they should've just not made sniper. too late now.
Okay. So as a new player. Who mains sniper. Its as easy as going scout. Your forgetting that this long ranged character just folds like wet paper when the character with a shotgun and the fastest speed just turns him into oragomi. But at this rate all im seeing the entire community complain like spoiled children when this is a team based class movement shooter. Go scout and start using map knoweledge to get close enough that he cant stab you. I get the same feeling. When a scout or pyro come up behind me and use their brain. I dont much like the classes cause they counter my playstyle that i enjoy. But my though process isnt to get rid of those classes.
Oke so who's gonna counter heavy now? Don't tell me is a spy, because most pyro will easily check if there's spy around.Thus sniper exist for that.If there's no sniper, heavy will easily take the objective like on payload nor koth. Sniper job is to kill uber medic as well from far away so the enemy have to retreat without their medics. It's called team fortress 2 bro, you're not gonna 1v1 with sniper. Even the video has a point ,if your team sucks and most kills because you play sniper that doesn't mean you can defend the objective without the Frontline class. How do you expect sniper defend the last point if no one play engie nor the Frontline class?
Most L take possible, sniper is the easiest class in the game and can be picked up by anyone who has any sense or aim skill. He can 1 shot 5 out of 9 classes (eyelander demo with no heads and grenade launcher) with a quickscope (pyros, demos, soldier most of the time are a 1 head and 1 to the body or a partial charge headshot, 1.19 secs for pyro/demo, 1.38 secs for usual soldier, 1.57 sec for batt. backup soldier), at any range. Thats if they have full health. The fact he can take out 8 out of 9 classes at any range, in 1.57 seconds at most (batt. backup) is absurd. There are no direct penalties for holding an angle (like scope sway). The main argument people use is with "don't peak a sight line" or "just get close." The issue with that is that some maps are noting but long sight lines with negligible cover. My favorite part about the "just get close strat is that it is countered by easily one of the best combos in the game, jarate/bush wacka.
"...easiest class in the game" This immediately invalidates your entire opinion. It tells any person with common sense that you have zero clue what you're talking about.
I have 20 hours on the class, its my lowest played, but still get kills after a couple mins of aiming, sometimes without even moving. You can play any other class and still pick up sniper. With any other class picking up another after a while, you gotta consider so much. For sniper? Look behind you, learn hitreg, aim, quickscope. Sightlines don't matter, you just need to be far enough but near a choke to shut it down somewhat If you're gonna insult him without even considering anything else they said, you're a hypocrite
And before you ask, I main Medic and Demoman, neither are hitscan. The people saying it wasn't an issue in the past is wrong, it was always an issue. The difference is more are aware of it, they are speaking out about it. I only hope Sniper is balanced, Spy still has ambi, Scout has guillotine. Sniper needs balance, it's the only one that hasn't changed in gameplay since it was added. He had weapons, but they don't change his playstyle, he still clicks heads
@@redline841 Practice, I literally have poor motor skills in my hands. I have went into servers and maps that support practicing aim. Having bad aim isnt because you're bad 75% of the time, you just haven't tried hard enough friend
For ADHD people, the message of this 1 hour yap is him saying: Fuck you, lmao you bad, sniper is fine. I think so too balance wise but hes just lame af.
@@RealJiren i know, it's a very cringey and arrogant word, it will fall out of use in a few months, then the people who used to say it will also start calling it cringey, its how it always happens
I’m not of the opinion that sniper needs a balance change, except for maybe reworking quick scopes a tad, and no balance changes will ever happen anyways. That being said I don’t really think you said anything here lol, it was basically just an hour of “everyone sucks” and any points you made, and there were some, were filled with so much bigotry it wasn’t easy to take seriously. Course that’s just me, I’m not a fan of the COD lobby talk, regardless of its normalization. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Sniper in casual feels balanced, most people can't hit a headshot on me. Now I never played competitive, but a cracked sniper would probably make me quit the game for a while
@@ayumu_osakaunironically yes, TF2 was only meant to be a stocking stuffer for the orange box after playing episode 2 and portal and gradually became a Frankenstein’s monster of a game. Really doubt the og tf team accounted for the 3000+ hour sniper sperg and future unlocks before release.
@@kylemason2836 1) No, TF2 was not just a "stocking stuffer". 2) The Sniper Rifle was last changed in 2008, and most complaints are towards stock sniper, so unlocks have nothing to do with this. 3) No the TF2 devs didnt "not anticipate" people playing and being good at their game.
@@ayumu_osaka it literally was, valve only developed TF2 further for the sake of experimentation because they had more freedom to do whatever they liked in comparison to developing single player titles like the HL games or a multiplayer game with competitive scene like CS. sniper was balanced in 07 because of the map pool and lack of mobility. Level 3 tele’s buffed heavy and sniper and made them better classes then on release. The sniper rifle isn’t the issue it’s the speed at which sniper can get to a good spot and hunker down. And yes I sincerely doubt the TF team expected how good people would become at this game.
when you play spy and the enemies discover you, you are already dead. it would take a master champion of spy to get out of there alive, or a completely braindead enemy. sniper is much the same, if your enemy manages to reach you, you are already dead. you have to suck real hard to die to a sniper melee when you have a shotgun, rockets, pipes or an instakill stab. Quickscoping is hard as balls, i suck at sniper and even i know that, when i get quickscoped by a sniper while getting close, i dont think thats bullshit, i put my hat on my hand and aplaude this guy that obliterated me with pure skill, god bless pro snipers.
he only removes options when it comes to flanking. there are 2 other pick classes that no one complains about. it's not a trend people have tried the game without sniper no other class becomes op if you ban him which isn't the case for the other classes.
Are we really trying to claim the player skill has went down? Are we talking about the same early 2013 tf2 where you could stand still and watch 3 snipers all miss you? Where a phlog pyro could go on 100 killstreaks or topscore playing with a steering wheel and a gas pedal to go forward? Where two uber chaining medics could spawncamp because people kept trying to shoot the shiny men and nobody knew how to go pyro and press m2? The claim that player skill has went down is the wildest claim I've ever seen on this game.
"Just hope he's bad at aiming, its perfectly balanced" "Having to fight through potentially thousands of hp to get to him is fair" "No it doesnt matter that i wear headphones which makes it impossible for spies to sneak up on me. This doesn't effect game balance at all" "Just hope he isn't looking down the flank route when you move" "You should have to sacrifice half your hp pool or more to have a chance to cross the only reasonable route you have as the slowest class to reach the fight and play the game" "No it doesn't matter that literally no other class is designed for extreme range and the closest thing to a response is easy to dodge projectiles" "Im good at it so it's balanced" "Clicking a head at long distance where it's easier to track takes lots of skill" (my first dom was on sniper btw, i don't buy that it's harder than the other classes. If anything it's easier) "Instakills at long range are balanced because the melee sewerslide pick class with a revolver secondary can do it" Finna make a bingo card for sniper apologia.
The reason sniper is hated is because hes so out of place , every other class is close to mid range so putting a long range class in such an game is like this is like they only added him because he was in tfc , if i could change sniper then i would make him more mid range than long range focus
Sniper on itself is actually balanced, what people don't seem to understand being upset about is the foundamental concept of the class itself: ranged oneshots, which is ironically the same reason used against certain items and combinations in the past, and still being used nowadays against random crits. Trying to "balance" Sniper won't solve anything at best and destroy it the same way competitive oriented mindset destroyed the game at worse. Edit: 9:18 That video only explains why Sniper as a class is difficult to balance in videogames as a whole, and in the end it even points out the TF2 Sniper as the most balanced.
balance sniper by nerfing quickscopes. boom, no more 6 out 9 classes instantly dying from a 0.1 second right click left click from far away, now the sniper has to... actually use the charge mechanic.
@@woobgamer5210 5 out 9*, also nerfing the only other skill dependent ability for sniper is asking for 'unforeseen consequences'. In my opinion, just nerf his ammo, give tracers and fix fast reload exploit and that quickscope would actually have some risk to do. Its not the quickscoping thats the problem, its his spamability to do the quickscopes. If that makes sense. If he had only like 12 shots, then he would immediately start thinking of using his shots widely and quickscopes would become a 'last resort' like a melee. (cough random crits exist cough)
great video. reminder that your average tf2 player is complete garbage and can only regurgitate opinions they heard from a tf2 youtuber or from social media, and these are also the same people who think that the only way to counter a sniper is to play sniper
This isn’t a video essay at all. Video essays are scripted and have tons of editing. Which is the opposite of Gabber’s videos. I’d say his videos are more like old school COD commentaries if anything, with off the cuff post commentary with gameplay in the background. A real example of a TF2 “video essay” would be Uncle Dane’s random crits video, or his trickle down balance video.
The problem with sniper in my opinion is low risk, high reward, compare that with spy in order for a spy to insta kill you he needs to first get behind you and attack when you're distracted ,easy on paper but in practice he can gets screwed over by your and his teammates, the janky hit registration or you randomly turning around , a spy puts his life at risk here. a sniper on the other hand can do that all that while being safe behind his team, theres no risk to missing a shot as a sniper a lot of the time, the only time you get an actual punishment is when you miss against a sniper or another class at closer ranges but most of the time the sniper is far away and safe. Spy is high risk , high reward sniper is low risk, high reward.
Any semi-competent Spy can kill a top scoring sniper, yes the Sniper can kill him but Spy has a gun and can wait for the Sniper to be aiming. I feel I'm in the same shoes you are with seeing players complain about this stuff.
I'm working on a very in-depth video about the discussion about Sniper and balancing him, hopefully it helps improve your outlook! I'd love to debate this with you sometime, instead of just watching videos with no real back and forth haha
A point which isnt talked about that much is the way sniper's ammo functions. Sniper basically has a 25 bullet clip. That's massive, considering the dmg he can output. It allows him to stay stationary for a while, in the same general area. Sniper's gameplay would be less repetitive if he had a clip system and reduced ammo capacity (clips of 3 or 5, with a total ammo capacity of 15, for example). It would force him to move around more (retreating a bit to reload an entire clip or get ammo more often) , and act more cautiously (can't quickscope scouts if you're reloading an entire clip). These moments could also give enemy players a bit of a break.
as a trolldier/beggars main just wanna say you sniper mains are aight. y'all work for your 150's and y'all deserve it. I've literally only heard the Nerf sniper shit from bad players. theoretically snipers could win a 1v1 scenario every time against most the lighter classes if they land a headshot but the remaining classes that have more than 150 hp have the tools required to kill a sniper before they get that second shot in. for the remaining classes who get one tapped you'll have to jump the fucker or use your tools accordingly. almost every map has a way around a sightline so theres ways to get the jump on em.
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Wanting to nerf and alter a dying game has to be the purest form of masochism.
people discussing balance changes for a dead game is hilarious
Yea fr ow2 pretty dead so there no point to nerf or buff character.
@@chost-059 It isn't even close to dead, and that's not even a matter of optimism. Tf2 is simply too popular with too much money sunk into it for anyone to let it die anytime soon.
An isaac pfp saying something is masochist means you've gone too far
@@TextualDeviantdamn near all of the players are bots, so i doubt its anything but dying.
You don’t have to worry, Valve ain’t balancing shit in this game ever again
Just dodge the hitscan bullet, it's not hard.
"just stay out of my sightline, its not like you need to push the cart"
@@Trolloncio nice rhyme
@@8088mph Point and click adventure game aaaah class.
@@8088mph Oh yeah, those dots that are easy to hide and often land on surfaces that you physically cannott even see without stepping into their sightlines or because they're looking at the skybox and who's visual design makes them actively hard to see on a lot of surfaces even when you're anticipating them let alone mid combat in locations tht you may not have even anticipated a sniper in for a wide number of reasons. Its a small dot that barely appears on surfaces and whos telegraphing only works with very specific parts of a level from snipers that arent very smart and who's existances does not actually show you were said sniper even is since it's not a visible line in the air it's a flat dull texture thats like a centimeter wide showing what their crosshair's on.
@@isaacargesmith8217idk man, sounds like you need to git gud
A lot less people would be complaining about Sniper if this game had a working anti-cheat.
This
This +1
Fr
funny how this was suddenly a "problem" once bots flooded the game
fair point, sniper bots are defiantly the worst out of all the bots but that doesn't mean they're the only ones. cheaters with use other classes to ruin the game. last month I saw a solider bot.
As a new player, TF2 online debates look more like political ones, which is very funny
Agreed wana talk politiks
maybe your mind is warped by youtube, but every fps before tf2 had snipers, as did every fps after tf2, they could all 1 shot people
it is political in a way because people who are anti sniper want to even the playing field so that other people can't succeed and enjoy the game, I'm a heavy main and I've never had a single problem with snipers, anyone with basic fps skill knows not to stand in the open against snipers, it is one of the first lessons in learning fps
@@datswassup9902 seriously. It literally just goes: (pop) "where the fuck did my health go?" (killcam zooms into sniper waving at you) *neuron activation*
Achievement Get!: Get Fucking Good, Scrub! (You died to a sniper out in the open, you now understand how to position yourself in shooter games)
Full disclosure for all you commies who think I'm just bragging up my main: I main demo, and used to main spy, I suck literal donkey cajones on sniper, and I get my shit rocked plenty by good snipers. Complaining gets you nowhere, suck it up and get better with the rest of us.
Yet better cuz they cant force us to pay taxes for something i guess
@@datswassup9902 holy moly a TF2 player that actually uses their head and isnt against us sniper mains! A heavy main no less! You are a gem! I will think of you everytime i encounter a heavy abusing his privilage of keeping his head. God speed you beautiful russian bear.
Sniper is fun when I'm playing him and bullshit when I'm fighting him. Simple as.
For me it's sniper is boring to play and lame to fight against but is very satisfying to get rid of him, kinda like kunai spies or whatever.
@@teezzmegee972 it honestly just feels out of place in the game
@@pumpyronaldrump_4417 it sure does buddy, it sure does....but atleast we can force him back by going in close, whisper in the dudes ear and call him every slur and/or insult you can conjure up within our deep, darkest crevices of our hearts before turning him into a pile of gore.
Gabber at times reminds me of a 1950s mob boss, who has you locked in a warehouse talking about how his favourite game is getting tarnished with the way he talks in these videos, and I'm all for it.
Really? Cuz he reminds me of a sped whose parents hate him.
gabber soprano
"When you delete the sniper the game feels the same but less flustrating"
Pretty sure ppl who sunk thousands of hours into playing sniper and getting good at it would be pretty frustrated
@@XD_Lynx They honestly need to take a break
@@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87 nah the community needs to stop having a giant skill issue.
@@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87 They didn't play thousands of hours of sniper in one sitting man. The game's nearly 20 years old, dude's been playing since 2009.
when you delete sniper, part of the game's personality dies with it
As someone who hates sniper, I hate sniper, not the player.
The player did their part to get good on sniper, good job for they, I clap my hands, but that don't remove the fact that I find snipers annoying.
Does that mean I want sniper to be removed? No what the hell bro, sniper, even being some I do hate, is part of the "natural ecosystem" of mercenaries
Scouts and Spies feed on Sniper, Snipers drop the uber, and the trolldier population get in check.
Sniper can be both good and bad, just like any other class, I get PTSD from snipers as a Medic Player:
I remembe the day of put my feet outside the spawn and get insta head shoot by a sniper,
and I remembe the day a sniper saved me from a scout that was about to drop me.
You can hate the class if you want, I do. But pls don't hate the player, and remembe, this is TEAM fortress 2, everyone is part of the TEAM
and everyone is doing their best, or not, to help and support the team in winning.
To all sniper players, a big fuck you and good shoot.
- A guy who can't aim
When you say it like that snipers are very much like mosquitos, they are annoying as fuck but without them a large part of the local ecosystem will just fail
@@Lacheln-YO I am pretty sure Shounic ran a server where sniper is banned. He initially though heavy stack on payload would be overpowered without his counter but explosive spams by soldier's and demoman's primary is too high even against 300 HP class with constant payload healing. Also competitive 6's sniper do not exist unless stalemate due to sniper is only viable in stalemate situation, huge sightline and not chokepoint spammy map (which 99% of totally smart TF2 players choose 2Fort, Turbine, Hightower, etc. over balanced and cut 'ed sightline map like Upward or Badwater). So snipers can just not exist in TF2 and the game is still fine but less class variety.
@@michaeljonathan9715 I watched the vid, what I meant was although they are annoying at times, they are important to maintain a sense of balance in the TF2 ecosystem
@@Lacheln-YO mosquitos are actually the rare animal that doesn't help it's ecosystem tho lol
@@Lacheln-YOsnipers are needed in any games. Melee/tank characters get a run for their money, but flanks decimate them as healers never target snipers.
Grenadiers can easily push them back if they are healed but can struggle against melee, Healers need teammates, tanks need cover, melee needs flanking maneuvers. Its a wide ecosystem that dumbasses think they can break apart for personal gain.
8:23 Showing footage of you spawn camping on sawmill for your part on anti-sniper propaganda is better anti-sniper propaganda footage then the majority of tf2 youtubers could come up with
I guess we better start bitching about Demos then for their ability to spawncamp with complete and utter brainlessness. At-least Sniper spawncamping requires skill.
@@JeffarryLounderDemo has to be right in front of their spawn, you’ll only see him be able to do it on a couple of maps, sniper can do it from across the map from safety from any other class apart from other snipers, no, demo spawn camping does not take skill, and yes, sniping takes skill, but skill should not be the only limiting factor to preventing a match being unplayable by half the server
@@schweppley1614 and the sticky bombs can be eaisly destroyed or moved away
@@schweppley1614 And Sniper has to have view of their spawn. While he's scoped in on the spawn he's left vulnerable to all else around him. And in both cases you will mainly die if you don't know they're there beforehand. If you know a Demo's there, you'll bait or destroy his stickies (if they're in sight). If you know a Sniper's there, you'll bait his shot or dodge around and then duck to cover so you can flank him later.
@@JeffarryLounder"dodge" "duck" "bait" good snipers hit those shots anyways. also sniper is wayy better than demo for spawn camping spawns with multiple exits
I'm a Pyro main... I absolutely hate sniper, DDS is BS. I want to see more heavies, I fear my direct counter far less than snipers.
There’s no actual direct counters in TF2.
They did nerf the grenade launcher's clip size
in like 2008
In the fucking beta
Before the game actually released
They nerfed the Minigun in 2015. People parroting the idea that Valve would never think to change the core balance of TF2's classes because Gabber said so are as much of sheep as the people who want to nerf Sniper because their other RUclipsr said so.
@@moogobIin why didn't they nerf sniper in the first 10 years of tf2 development? The dev's clearly didn't think sniper had any issues with his balance if they never radically touched him all the way to jungle inferno. The reason why people say these sniper haters are coping is because all their points boil down to "the sniper is better than me at the game" which comes off as a huge cope.
I think Sniper should just instantly die when other players get close to him since he's a long range class
if you could aim they do die, but you suck
he goes into cardiac arrest and it kicks you from the server
From my point of view, the only problem I've had with sniper is just dying from across the map without me even seeing him because he's just so far away. That's it, when I die to him outside of that its because I made my movement predictable when this game is designed about hitting your shots and moving in a way that makes your opponents miss.
Please debate zesty Jesus about this topic you both seem smart dudes and it would be fun to watch.
Playing against sniper is like playing a turn based RPG against a boss that one shots you and allways attacks first.
You can only win if he misses.
100% of the outcome is in his hands and 0% is in yours, even if he dies
But isn't basically every encounter like that? Whoever hits more and better wins. Example: Scout vs Soldier, Scout is at an obvious disadvantage. He needs to hit more shots and be more precise.
Going back to the case of Sniper: Be aware of him. Outplay him. Treat him like a Spy and give him the necessary respect of a Spy. Spycheck and "Snipercheck".
And yes sometimes a Sniper is gonna hit you out of nowhere. So is a Spy. A Scout. Hell any Class flanking or outplaying you.
@@lustigername9377That's a comedically flawed argument, every encounter with another class involves counter play, dodge the rockets as scout and kill the scout before he hits down to 0. There is no "snipercheck", a spy can turn invisible and disguise, you can check surroundings for him and check teammates, a sniper can't do those and instead opts for being able to quickscope most classes in an instant, there is no counter play if the sniper hits that shot. A sniper can hit you out of nowhere, at any distance, and deal far more damage in an instant.
There are only a few concrete options and all of them involve close range and having more then 150-195 hp
@@poopet1976 "There is no counterplay if I got killed"
No shit.
@@ManicObsevations Are you talking about the Direct Hit?
It's not a fad. People are realizing Sniper is broken because:
1. The bots making people realize Sniper's full potential.
2. All of the bad Snipers got better.
3. TF2 has received no balance changes since 2018. With a stable metagame, Sniper mains could freely get better at the game without balance changes getting in their way.
No, no. It's a fad throughout all the gaming industry: People despise skill expression. People are significantly less tolerant of being told they're trash than they used to be. These creatures are not valid humans.
ah yes, sniper is broken because: people are good at sniper and cheaters are using external programs to have an unfair advantage. If that isn't the biggest cope I've ever heard
@@ebookie_meowda sniper requires the least skill out of all classes
@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947holy fucking shit, how delusional can you be
@@thekrampuselbananoquevivee9947k scrub
Sniper doesn’t need a nerf, just buff spy lmao (revert ambassador)
go back to 2014, it's the only way
sniper wasn't bitched about before because there was a hitbox bug that only really fucked him over. It was in the game for nearly a decade before being fixed.
Think about that; all of the 2006 playtesters played with a broken, dysfunctional version of sniper, and he was balanced around that bug. Then, a decade later, it suddenly gets fixed at almost the same time as the game's final balance patch
Haven't listened to the video yet but of my 12 years of playing TF2 I have never felt ROBBED because of a sniper player. Okay this is a game where you can get a random crit and destroy anyone in that one shot, and I don't even mind that most of the times. People finding the need to complain about a class that really only becomes "OP" when the player is good is kinda nuts, it's not a competitive game as is and why are you min/maxing in this painfully borderline party game? Not to say balance isn't a factor in fun, it's really just not that cumbersome as people want to put out. Strafe better, play map knowledge, counter-pick, is logically the go-to but these people want to crucify the class and nerf it to the ground just like jungle inferno so that nobody plays sniper.
Only time I ever get annoyed with random crits is if I specifically am playing spy. IDK what it is, but getting crit as a spy feels extra personal lol
@@ebookie_meowda *cries in 60% melee crit chance ubersaws*
I think that the biggest problem regarding sniper is the playerbse mindset
Everyone is mad, because they can't deal with him reactively while he is meant to be dealt with PROACTIVELY
Bone chilling, spine tingling, genre redefining kino
finally someone who has a functional brain. Tf2 is a game where matchups arent what matters its not the class they are playing its the person controlling it. Any server can be dominated by a really good scout or a really good soldier, pyro demo or a good spy trickstabbing everyone. It is a game where the person behind the keyboard is what determines the outcome of a fight.
i think the most understated part about this discussion is the "hey are you fucking insane this would change fucking everything" part and im glad thats brought up here go give him a True
your argument makes a few good points, but they're buried under so much logical fallacy that it's hard to take it seriously.
classes have been changed fundamentally before and (often) for the better, this includes:
Pyro's airblast
Engineers can move their buildings + upgrade their teleporter and Dispenser
Spy's speed buff
and Heavy's various rev-up buffs and nerfs.
about the "Anti-Sniper propaganda", how are they propaganda? what about them is propaganda? you didn't bother to show their arguments and refute them. That first video you showed agrees with you, he thinks that TF2 Sniper is about as balanced as a sniper can get. Zesty Jesus' video was about how Sniper's quick scope headshots right now are as fast as a human eye blinking, and it should be a bit longer just so you can process what happened.
does Sniper have to take risks? yes, as with every class in the game, but he does have lower risk as he's in the backline often. Does Sniper have counterplay? yes, as with every class in the game. like you said, Spy is a great counter, unless you have the Razorback. also forgot Pyro's Flares, they're good at deterring Sniper too, except when you have the danger shield. Medic's CC and Engineer's Wrangler are both OP in general, so that's something to add to the long list of what they can do.
interactivity means "How do you fight this class as this class?" In a Scout vs Soilder interaction, the Scout has to dodge rockets and the soldier has to predict the Scout's movements. In a Demo vs Engineer interaction, the demo has to destroy Engie's buildings then Engie himself, and the Engie has to kill the Demo and destroy his Stickybombs. Sniper doesn't have this, it's the same game plan for almost every class. out-range them, headshot, repeat.
Personally, I think he's somewhat balanced. he could have a slight rework at most.
🤡
@@EmanS117 Ah yes, the perfect counter-argument, I'm powerless now. you've rebutted and countered my argument down to a T. I will now throw myself off a cliff because I can't even compare to the perfect argument you've blessed us with.
@@kingkrool94 You're welcome, the clown emoji usually works with ruffling over-thinkers into a turmoil of presumption.
Valve should do so f2ps cant play sniper
@@DiffGameContentthats stupid mate, f2p cant even write anything in chat.(I hope your comment is joke)
(new addendum at the end) You say sniper is integral to TF2's design, but there is no shortage of anecdotes from TF Team members, even those from earlier in development, that just didn't like sniper and wanted some sort of rework to be done to the class. Listen to Dario Casali on An Evening With Nirvana, for example. Besides, people have experimented with banning sniper multiple times and no, it does not break the game. Sniper is not OP, yes, but he is just lame, and makes TF2 a worse experience for most other classes. With no hope of future reworks, I can't help but have a bit of sympathy for those who want to outright ban the class.
EDIT: I'd like to thank people in the comments who made some really good points, but it has come to my attention (by RUclips addicts that recognized me under some other video) that the creator later brazenly made an hour long video putting up screenshot of my comment among others. I haven't watched it because frankly I'm not in the mood for Gabber's "TF2 Patriotism" nonsense, so I'll just discuss some of the points made in my comments now that I got reminded of it.
Yes you are right. Saying a class is inessential because the game is resilient to removing a class is stupid. I watched shounic's video with the mindset that the players playing the rest of the 8 other class were having just as much fun, (I mean, I would? and I like the matches where nobody goes sniper) but maybe a lot was lost in the experiment. My bad.
Maybe Dario is not the authority on TF2's game design, and taking advice of the creator of Goldrush is maybe not the best idea. But him saying Sniper was a pain point in map design says a lot. Hearing him say how 8 other classes are having fun in an environment only for sniper to ruin all that means one less unique and fun concept that could have been. How many horrible sniper spots get discovered in new maps? I bet if it was in a Dario map he would go back and fix it the moment he finds out. (even if to the detriment of the map)
Maybe I should expand on why I find sniper lame and its counters piss poor, but I've already added more than what's reasonable to the tail end of a 4 months old comment. In some ways TF2's core (except the current matchmaking as seems to be the buzz these days) should be preserved because anyone else (even Valve) would screw it up and I get it but I don't want to engage with this person's channel any more than I already have.
His inclusion in TF2 only happened because TF classic players would've bitched about it.
dude you can that about a lot of classes in the game
scout, soldier, pyro, demo, heavy, and spy
i play casual games all the time where theres no scouts and no demos on the other team and i dont notice jack its just one class
one
I think you mean engineer, bro
Some hard copium broski.
Sniper is integral to TF2’s design. You misunderstood Dario’s point. He was referring to map design and that when Valve made a map they had to consider all classes.
You must not pay attention to patch notes, because the Pandora's box of changing an entire class has already been opened. When spy was even more ass than he is today, valve buffed his speed in meet your match to be 320, in line with every class except scout, because he literally could not catch up to some classes. The same can be done in the other direction, where a class is too powerful and dominant, and could be given a slight nudge in the direction the class was intended to fill, instead of completely oppressing any area he inhabits.
a 7% speed buff is considered to be a change in the class's core design now?
kek
@@adnan-oe8wm The percentage doesn't matter. What matters is that he then becomes able to keep up with every class except scout, where before he was unable to catch up to a medic.
And the proposed nerfs to sniper are even smaller tweaks, like increasing quick scope time so it becomes harder to immediately do 150 damage at any range, or adding inverse damage falloff so one of his counters (close range) isn't rendered moot.
Could probably also add disguise swapping getting a 1.5 second reduction, and the Invis buff of 20% damage resistance and a 50% reduction on debuff timers.
@@czechboy1365 True. It just felt like an important instance of them changing what is "core TF2 mechanics" as speed is pretty important for every single class and isn't a minor change like +20 heath on extinguish.
@@IsaacShoebottom nerfing quickscope is stupid. Its like nerfing the direct hit cuz it needs skill.
Man I’m sure you watched “The Sopranos’’ before. The way you say “all due respect” and “fucking” reminds me of the show xd.
awl dou reshpect
I noticed two references to Sopranos in this video.
@@atomicpunch1990 also his second account named ‘Detective Retard, in the “f2p’s lives matter” video also had Phil Leotardo profile picture.
His accent reminds me of an Italian American mobster from the 40's lol.
I'd like to say bravo for not censoring the ingame chat for "meany mean bad words". It's the little things that make the man a man.
Respect.
To preface this, you make some good points, but they're so buried under multiple layers of logical fallacies that it's impossible to take this seriously. It's as though you've never done a college essay before and threw the whole book at Filmora Trial Edition. Summarize. Stop treating every single person who slanders sniper as the entire criticism anti-sniper groups are making. Or even as something worth acknowledging, in some cases.
Ignoring every piece of criticism you've consciously ignored at this point, I'm just going to say that sniper isn't fun to fight. You may find it fun, and others might, but the player response to getting killed by a sniper is overwhelmingly dependent on how many hours they have as Sniper, themselves, in one of the worst bouts of mass-bias I've seen- no matter which side of the aisle is at fault, here. Every interaction rests entirely in the sniper's hands, be it your teammate's or the enemy sniper themselves. Every counter is dependent on the sniper _playing worse than you_ , and being good at _them_ requires a set of skills entirely different to what a vast majority of players have by virtue of the most popular and iconic gameplay elements all just not taking for Sniper. Every class, even *Heavy*, is far more dynamic in how they play, in an ironic twist given how restricted they are. Because sniper exists in it's own little island of functionality that encourages bias given being good at sniper rarely translates to any other class, unlike, well, any other class.
Spy and Medic, the other two support classes, are only comparable on a surface level. Each can still benefit from any other playtime far more than Sniper can. Yes, sneaking around is critical to playing Spy, but he's not the only one who stealth can be beneficial for. Medic is the only class at all that has something comparable to the island of functionality Sniper has, but even then, the medic is just one, iconic support character as part of a trope across hundreds of games, with that general multitasking skill and communication becoming honed and applicable in all kinds of environments. You'd think Sniper at least has that- that same transferability across games other than tf2- but he doesn't even get _that_ because he lacks any form of bullet drop or damage falloff, which can even prove detrimental if you have honed muscle memory for aiming directly on the head. Once again being crisp in it's irony, Heavy is perhaps the only class with significant skills transferrable to sniper, because he is heavily reliant on positioning and tracking- much like Sniper- but the skills still don't translate because each one's end goals are entirely different.
So in the end, Sniper is an Island unto an Island.
24:30 People don't suck, there's just a critical disconnect that's driving this wedge in the community. Just to be clear, I'll say it again; people aren't merely bad at sniper, he requires a set of skills so far removed from every other class that people either understand how to play them well or use Huntsman instead. You're not winning any favors, nor making any point by stating that people are bad at sniper. It's true, but not the actual problem at play, here.
It's no fault to you that you like sniper and feel the class you've invested time into is being violated, which has overwhelmingly shaped your opinion when people make up points of their own, but it's plain to me that you're grasping at straws here. Sniper is going to eventually get nerfed. The question is if you want to actually participate in the community so it doesn't compromise the balance between, say, sniper and heavies, or if you want to remain stagnant.
Because if sniper mains continue to shut down any argument against the class, they're not going to be given a compromise. They're not even going to be able to offer the insight necessary to make good changes in the first place. And _that_ is the problem that would deserve an entire hour's worth of my time.
Am I being trolled tf
No way Sniper will “eventually be nerfed” TF2 hasn’t had a balance change in 6 years. It isn’t going to get some more anytime soon.
@@VenomSnakeMGS
It will be nerfed in the same manner pyro eventually got an update.
When Valve feels like it.
@@TextualDeviant don't hold your breath
>Its as though youve never done a college essay before
lmao
>Sniper is le unbalanced... because it just is, okay!
Protip: On 2fort, you can catch the snipers by surprise if you use the FaN-jump to get up to their balcony.
Doesn't usually work after the 1st attempt or if they're a cuntsman sniper
The sad truth of the matter is he's just not fun to fight. Things can be overpowered and still be fun to fight or at least have fun interactions that come with it. I've been playing sniper more recently since he's my second most least played class and I've been enjoying him. I don't think he's overpowered I just think he's the most unfun class to play against in the game (which there has to be a most unfun class to play against).
changing the laser from a dot to a beam when aiming is probably good. even half life 2 had this with the combine snipers, pretty much every game dev has figured out that you need either a laser or scope glint, which is really more about player visibility. it's just so that you know you're in a fight with another player. a lot of these dogshit new maps have bad sightlines/lighting that are easy to abuse. but it's not THAT big of a deal, this is more of a map problem than a sniper problem. we need good flank routes and cover.
Great idea ngl. Especially with sight lines.
the sniper stands tall as a pole anyway, most times i actually see the dot before the sniper (even the good ones) we don't need a whole ass beam for noobs
i love how this guy's example of movement options being used to counter sniper is on the SMALL MAP WITH A HUGE SKYBOX LOL. you cant pull that on any payload or attack/defend map where theres at least ONE engineer or multiple teammates (happens every single game) because youll get gunned down in 3 seconds. the only classes that can reliably kill sniper is spy (most situations, unless he wears the RAZORBACK and he sits behind his team where you CAN kill him but you will die too since you will have to use your revolver) and another sniper.
also saying heavy can use the fists of steel as a counterplay to sniper is just pure lobotomy, if you need an unlock just to be able to get out of SPAWN that doesnt mean you can counter anything about sniper, yeah sure you can now get out of spawn (needed a unlock for that lol) but if you want to do your job as a heavy and kill people you have to TAKE OUT YOUR MINIGUN LMAOOO. the engi "sit behind your sentry and shoot him with the wrangler" is so stupid because if YOU, an engineer, managed to notice the sniper before he noticed you and you also had the time to pull out the wrangler, and hide behind your sentry (which makes your aim on the sniper fucking awful since it blocks your view and now everyone can kill you while you are busy with the sniper on the other side of the map mid push) then you just got INCREDIBLY lucky.
Harvest is one of sniper's strongest map retard
What if the sniper gets shot while he is shooting the engie or somebody alse
@@-ap1-4 safe to assume the sniper still hits his shot if they hit him from far away OR the sniper is dead if he gets shot up close
@@arthropleura1075 ... why is it safe to assume that?
It's almost like the game is called team fortress 2, and in order to win you have to cooperate with your team and be tactical instead of moronically bum-rushing the enemy. Also no, killing a sniper is not hard at all even when teammates are near, your entire problem is objectively a skill issue.
I think a lot of the newfound hate for sniper can be explained by the massive influx of aim bots and human cheaters. People now associate sniper with the frustration of having a game flooded with bots or some piece of shit furry with lmaobox installed and are, (potentially subconsciously), misplacing their anger onto the class itself.
What happens when an enemy sniper is doming me a lot? I switch to sniper and counter sniper until I finish having my fun.
I do admit there's a huge case of main character syndrome in the community where the game needs to change to cater to the demands of those who take the game too seriously, especially in the comp scene. I mean the game we all enjoyed was changed a lot to suit them, fun deleted for everyone else.🙁
I genuinely think that big company-supported esports completely warped everyones' perception of how games should be designed. Competitive leagues should've always been exclusively community-driven.
@@ebookie_meowda very true
@@ebookie_meowda
This is excessively true. Today companies know they can just cater to the whims of the masses and turn the game into a shallow ocean
zestysisters, our response?
fellow chudlings, we can not stand idle as this sniper loving troglodyte defaces our dictator and his objective opinions.
we're crying about it.
Currently calling the wahmbulance.
But not for me!
Ignoring him, because he called him a "ZestyNibba", which I think is the most tame language he put into 2 hours worth of toddler ranting.
Sniper would not be such an issue if Sandman was good. Like... yo! You surely could not consistently stun moving players but you *surely* *could* stun Snipers fairly consistently and then two-shot or give your sniper a free kill since these guys don't use wasd-keys very often.
Everything in TF2 worked so well before comp community interfered.
Everything worked like clockwork and everything was interconnected (Sandman countered Natasha and vice versa and so on) but now this interconnection is broken. Thanks to Soy Dane and his team.
That's what happens when you don't let developers develop *their* game.
you know what i agree with this
i would totally give up 15 health to protect my team from snipers
Sir, the cleaver is Right There.
the suggestion sniper being poorly designed could be offset by reverting the sandman changes is the wildest take ive seen in ages. definitly underlines the energy on this channel 'stuck in the past, unable to deal with change. lots of delusional takes, tying things together like a conspiracy theorist and his pegboard'
TF2 sniper bad pootis good. Valve will never update the game again but I think they will magically nerf this class I don't like. Also I votekick snipers for being better than me because le wholesome fun or something.
I used to play spy, medic and pyro a lot and i got killed by snipers all the fucking time.
Then i switched to playing soldier and scout and suddenly snipers only ever kill me once in a blue moon.
I WONDER 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
>Gets headshot while rocket jumping
>Sniper turns around and quickscopes Scout
this has to be bait
Some points are good but yeah the tone really comes of as rage bait and youtube drama but yeah i dont think nerfing sniper would probably change nothing as tf2 players would just find a new scapegoat
Bro spent an hour yapping "I am good, everyone bad"
This is what sucking at Counter-Strike does to a man.
What?
the only thing sniper should ever be nerfed for, is quickscopes.
almost every god tier sniper exclusively quickscopes. you can peak for a split second, and you will be quick scoped. the laser dot on the wall telling you 'hey theres a sniper here' is useless if the sniper is a quickscoper., because he will just right click and kill you before you can even register that there is a sniper looking right at you.
just reduce the damage on quickscoping to only killng scout, sniper and spy, instead of quick scope killing... oh look at that 6 out of 9 classes not counting demoknight
You know the Sniper has to also register that you are there to shoot you…. right?
@@RusselSimoSmirnov You don’t understand. They’re still aiming over there, but you can’t *see* them aiming over there.
@@jrperry1611 We’re talking about quickscopes here, not hardscopes. And I mean, you can always jump the Sniper still, or just be a Spy, or do so many other stuff.
Somebody else pointed out that removing quickscoping would make hardscoping more oppressive because sniper is one of his own counters. The alternative he proposed is dropping the class' HP to 100 so that Scouts, Soldiers and Demos can OHK him in the same way, which sounds fair to me.
I find it more engaging when wide open field doesn’t feel like playground for my explosives but there is constant threat either from flanking classes from behind or from sniper from outer my reach
would you have the same reaction to the name zesty jesus if he was called "Dry Buddha?"
Hi Gabber, what do you think about several so-called tf2bers and redditors asking for a buff for the spy because "once it is discovered by the enemy it is practically dead" and suggesting to give it life or clock buffs, removing the smoke when it is disguised or making it have the same passives of the disguised class?
Spy needs bug fixes and some buffs , you can see him trough walls when you spawn, his disguises also sometimes break without the spy knowing.
I've been playing a game called The Finals recently and they keep nerfing the invisibility into the ground and all I keep thinking is "imagine if they did that in TF2." people would riot
rare gabber L
Unfortunate :/
I enjoy most of his opinions, even this one. He makes good points on this.
Nah he's right on this one. People bitch way too much about Snipers nowadays. They can't comprehend the skill/power tradeoff theory.
you are new to fps
There have been class massive balance changes before. Demo's launcher went from 6 shots to 4, Pyro got airblast, and Engineer got building hauling. Lesser, but still very substantial changes happened too. Heavy had his miniguns globally nerfed at one point, so that you didn't do full dps the instant you started shooting. Spy got a massive buff in the form of getting medic movement speed. These are just off of the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more that aren't widely documented.
Just skimming the timestamps in your video, I can tell your argument is dogshit. Hoping the opponent can't hit a moving target is not a "skill". Avoiding Sniper isn't "beating" Sniper. The counter play you're giving is as bogus as counter play for beating a gun in a knife fight.
There is a delay to human reaction time that is impossible to completely overcome, you can absolutely make a sniper flinch and move like you're not an invalid as counterplay.
@@shrimpchris6580 Wow. By completely emptying your shotgun you can buy yourself a whopping 3.75s of giving the Sniper a 50% chance to miss.
If the Sniper is good this will not work, because they can simply wait out 1 of those 6 flinches. Flick headshots easily counter evasive movements too. As long as your cursor crosses the head within 1 or 2 frames of you shooting there is a very good chance the server will just give you the headshot. Doesn't matter if the target was changing directions while you passed them.
This "counterplay" doesn't even make it unlikely for the Sniper to kill you, it just makes it harder for the Sniper. The Sniper still has the advantage the entire time and just has to hit their shot. They have infinite range and on demand crits, and you don't. Ultimately, you are just hoping the Sniper fucks up, with no way for you to win unless they do.
@@KLIXORthe Idk what to tell you, I've never been unable to deal with even the best snipers I've ever played against while just hopping on soldier, it's just not an issue most of the time.
@@shrimpchris6580 Wow. If you blindsight dive a Sniper he's actually very killable, almost like any other class.
There's nothing for you to "tell me", because even more so than Soldier, Sniper lacks counters, but unlike Soldier, Sniper doesn't even have to take risks to get kills.
The only way you beat Sniper is if they miss or you get the drop on them. Skill can mitigate the chances of both to an unfair extent.
A good Sniper can still be killed while he pubstomps, but he can easily carry a team that gives him any frontline support to speak of.
@@KLIXORthe You can dive them in their direct line of sight 80% of the time if you don't move like a retard, it's just not possible for humans to prevent that. It can be annoying to die to a sniper, but it's just fundamentally not that different from unbalanced interactions with other classes and he just doesn't destroy a disproportionate amount of pubs or the main comp league compared to other classes, it doesn't matter how much you don't like it. His damage doesn't keep up with most other classes and he *is* vulnerable up close no matter how many super perfect god tier 100% accurate quick scope unicorns you make up.
60 minutes just to say “errm, respect my sight lines sweetie”
having thousands of hours and multiple seasons of competitive under my belt, some of which being the 2nd highest league in highlander
yeah no son, sniper def needs a nerf
7:08 dude just spent an hour crying about people who don’t agree with him lmao
With moot points to boot
You kids have spent literal years crying about a class in team fortress 2 being good
💀
Wait a second havent people made exact videos like this before just the opposite????
@@Randomdelfia Yes
@@GODber777 okay and you've proven you're no better by handling this so immaturely
I agree with most of your points and this is really funny because you are talking like an "older player mentality" would.
I had some of the same points lol.
I kept thinking, "wasn't he like fine for over a decade now?" What's wrong now? Why does the "high skilled" stuff need to be nerfed???
Modern gamers despise skill.
they always called the millenial generation the participation trophy generation but what we are currently experiencing is total clown world, communism has injected itself into video games, instead of becoming skilled at a game people want to have a safe space
My issue with "he is OP when players are good"
Is it's just as bad as "he was fine when players sucked"
Neither is a valid argument because he hasn't changed since then. If Sniper has some issues we only found now, they were there since the beginning. These statements fail to tell us if he's bad or not.
was gonna try to put a counter argument that while sniper isnt overpowered, he doesnt give players enough counterplay, but thought about it and realized every class in the game has plenty of counter play to him when hes not being played by a cheater.
People hate sniper because snipers become prominent when the opposite team is being steamrolled.
Yes that's true not that many people realise it however
Which happens very often, at least in my experience
CAUSE HE JUST IS, OKAY?
the real solution is to buff items that make it easier to fight sniper
That vid being unfiltered makes it hard to take seriously but you sound more reasonable than the average pubber so i'll give you that
clown, back to minecraft
i dont even like fighting sniper but banning him is stupid for 2 reasons
1 sniper sucks unless you have good aim if your aim is bad like mine is sniper might as well be a paper weigh
2 even if you are good at sniper its not to hard to fight him
do a vid on how b4nny single handedly ruined airblast because he was in valve's ear at the time and decided he wanted to turn tf2 into smash bros melee
How did he alter it?
well, there is always first. i disagree, i think sniper do need a rework. compared to other classes. he like one of the few who actually went unchanged for so long. don't get me started on his back shield items and unlocks. There is reason why i been using the Vac since i start playing the game. over 9 years by now. AND NO, no one told me to hate him. i hated him from the start, and i'm your pub sniper when come to skill level. not really good but also not bad (tho competent sniper do gets me)
Sniper apologists will never cease to amaze me. Calling every else virgins while coping into his $3 mic.
9:59 i litterly had this happen with a scout the other dsy this guy stands dead still in front of me schooting its pistol just for him to cry about it
Instant burst damage of 150-450 is... a lot, rivaled only by Demoman's sticky traps.
Sniper is a *support* class, he's effective range shouldn't be anywhere near the enemies, yet he can still do 150 damage in 0.2 seconds.
For example: I was in the 2Fort sewers and found myself face to face with the Scout, i was totally out of position, yet i won in an instant *with the ultra skill combo of* "m2 m1". In my opinion i should have dealt 50 damage and then died as i deserved, or was forced to use the melee.
I think that Sniper could actually be fairly balanced... if crits on headshots were removed.
Very low dps, 150 burst damage after 3.3 seconds of charging. That would force the Sniper into long range.
But removing the reward for headshots would remove most of the Sniper's mechanical skill... That could be solved by giving some other reward.
My suggestion is as follows:
Remove critical hits for headshots.
Refill charge back to 100% on a fully charged headshot kill.
That would still allow the Sniper to instakill light classes, but only after a 3 second set-up time.
But in order to kill heavier classes they would need to be damaged first, unless you want to charge your shot again. Hence a SUPPORT class.
And this version of the weapon would also reward consistency...
It's just more balanced without instakills.
garbage
@@swagguy7515
Please elaborate.
"sniper is a support class" is not a good reason for one to nerf sniper and i don't like restricting what a class can't be in any game just because they're "dps" "support" "tank"
i say, you were rewarded you hitting that difficult close ranged shot on the scout and the scout was penalized for not dodging/shooting you faster because despite how sniper discord is rn, he is still weaker than 8/9 classes at close range
you proposed change don't make sense, you shoot the head and are rewarded with NOT killing them?! you gotta do that a second time?! what!? oh yea, that's real fun wtf
@@swagguy7515
Your first argument is fair, however...
Dodging? Shooting me faster? It was a a histscan shot that took less than a second, it's untelegraphed and undogeble.
And even if he did shoot me first, that would change nothing unless it was a random crit. It takes one shot from me and at least two from him.
I proposed to remove crits on headshots entirely. Instead putting more focus on the charge mechanic.
You would still be able to one shot light classes on full charge, and two shot everyone else besides Heavy.
It simply requires more *setup time,* instead of being able to do so at any moment.
However, since most of sniper's skill is based on aiming for the head, headshot mechanic itself can not be removed.
My idea is: You charge your rifle. See a light class. Instakill. If it was a headshot, refill the charge. As such, be ready shoot again immediately after. If it is a heavier class, you should wait until your teammates damage them a bit, and then ideally go for a headshot to skip setup.
Quick scoping no longer exists. Heavy now is a counter to sniper.
Yeah, ok. Our opinions are set in stone and no matter what we say our ways in set in stone. One thing though... "Heavy now is a counter to sniper." I will remember this line forever because it is hilarious. Absolutely foul. What is blud smoking? Haha
Ya'll, why you wanna remove Sniper?..
He's so fun to shit on ingame. Come on, we all love it when a cocky ass sniper gets humbled. Admit it.
And they are such easy targets too when you're coming up behind them. Like free kills almost. Plus they're really fun to annoy and harass.
Me when I'm the cocky sniper with thousands of hours and still take L xD
in all honesty sniper is annoying and can be a lil oppressive but ive never had the entitlement to ask for sniper nerfs. i just want my ambassador back lol.
i’ve said it once and i’ll say it again, good video. the no bullshit attitude and calling out the people who shot this game in the head makes for such an entertaining watch.
Don't hate on the player just hate on the long ranged dude in the game filled with mid range 🙏
removing sniper from tf2 would be ideal:
when playing against a sniper, you're not really playing against them. there is no battle, and being able to kill them from a distance is very unlikely unless you're a sniper.
this is not the case in day of defeat, where a support can still kill a sniper with one shot from a large distance if he knows his position. rockeeters have the same effect in being able to neutralize, and not mitigate a tf2 sniper's presence and highly effective efficiency.
tf2 gameplay's loop is majorly made in close-medium quarters, sniper naturally does not belong to this range of combat. the huntsman is the exception.
i see no reason to keep sniper in the game, he does not fit in. i believe sniper is part of a fallacy, and only gets an exception because he is already in the game's decade+ old history.
it also doesn't help valve had no clue on what to do with sniper, so they made items that make the glass cannon stronger while not making him directly weaker to those who would flank him and terminate him. (tf where they thinking?)
he's a sore thumb that sticks out... it's not even a matter of skill or whatever. it's more so game design. they should've just not made sniper. too late now.
get better
bad
Okay. So as a new player. Who mains sniper. Its as easy as going scout. Your forgetting that this long ranged character just folds like wet paper when the character with a shotgun and the fastest speed just turns him into oragomi. But at this rate all im seeing the entire community complain like spoiled children when this is a team based class movement shooter. Go scout and start using map knoweledge to get close enough that he cant stab you. I get the same feeling. When a scout or pyro come up behind me and use their brain. I dont much like the classes cause they counter my playstyle that i enjoy. But my though process isnt to get rid of those classes.
Oke so who's gonna counter heavy now? Don't tell me is a spy, because most pyro will easily check if there's spy around.Thus sniper exist for that.If there's no sniper, heavy will easily take the objective like on payload nor koth. Sniper job is to kill uber medic as well from far away so the enemy have to retreat without their medics. It's called team fortress 2 bro, you're not gonna 1v1 with sniper. Even the video has a point ,if your team sucks and most kills because you play sniper that doesn't mean you can defend the objective without the Frontline class. How do you expect sniper defend the last point if no one play engie nor the Frontline class?
>Remove sniper because YOU JUST HAVE TO, OK?!
Most L take possible, sniper is the easiest class in the game and can be picked up by anyone who has any sense or aim skill. He can 1 shot 5 out of 9 classes (eyelander demo with no heads and grenade launcher) with a quickscope (pyros, demos, soldier most of the time are a 1 head and 1 to the body or a partial charge headshot, 1.19 secs for pyro/demo, 1.38 secs for usual soldier, 1.57 sec for batt. backup soldier), at any range. Thats if they have full health. The fact he can take out 8 out of 9 classes at any range, in 1.57 seconds at most (batt. backup) is absurd. There are no direct penalties for holding an angle (like scope sway). The main argument people use is with "don't peak a sight line" or "just get close." The issue with that is that some maps are noting but long sight lines with negligible cover. My favorite part about the "just get close strat is that it is countered by easily one of the best combos in the game, jarate/bush wacka.
"...easiest class in the game"
This immediately invalidates your entire opinion. It tells any person with common sense that you have zero clue what you're talking about.
I have 20 hours on the class, its my lowest played, but still get kills after a couple mins of aiming, sometimes without even moving.
You can play any other class and still pick up sniper. With any other class picking up another after a while, you gotta consider so much. For sniper? Look behind you, learn hitreg, aim, quickscope. Sightlines don't matter, you just need to be far enough but near a choke to shut it down somewhat
If you're gonna insult him without even considering anything else they said, you're a hypocrite
And before you ask, I main Medic and Demoman, neither are hitscan. The people saying it wasn't an issue in the past is wrong, it was always an issue.
The difference is more are aware of it, they are speaking out about it. I only hope Sniper is balanced, Spy still has ambi, Scout has guillotine. Sniper needs balance, it's the only one that hasn't changed in gameplay since it was added. He had weapons, but they don't change his playstyle, he still clicks heads
I can't hit for shit, now what?
@@redline841 Practice, I literally have poor motor skills in my hands. I have went into servers and maps that support practicing aim. Having bad aim isnt because you're bad 75% of the time, you just haven't tried hard enough friend
For ADHD people, the message of this 1 hour yap is him saying: Fuck you, lmao you bad, sniper is fine. I think so too balance wise but hes just lame af.
Since when did commentary videos become "yap"
Pretty in line for this crowd to appeal to "ADHD people" hahaha
@@RoboDoesEdits Kids can't focus on videos that are more than one second long so anything beyond that line is "yap" xddd
@@RealJiren i know, it's a very cringey and arrogant word, it will fall out of use in a few months, then the people who used to say it will also start calling it cringey, its how it always happens
@@RoboDoesEdits i deeply apologize after watching the whole video for calling it a so called "yap", dear sire. It was cringey and arrogant of me.
I’m not of the opinion that sniper needs a balance change, except for maybe reworking quick scopes a tad, and no balance changes will ever happen anyways.
That being said I don’t really think you said anything here lol, it was basically just an hour of “everyone sucks” and any points you made, and there were some, were filled with so much bigotry it wasn’t easy to take seriously.
Course that’s just me, I’m not a fan of the COD lobby talk, regardless of its normalization. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Sniper in casual feels balanced, most people can't hit a headshot on me. Now I never played competitive, but a cracked sniper would probably make me quit the game for a while
Sniper is even less effective in competitive. That's why he's an offclass in 6s. And that's why you should never take a compcuck's opinion seriously.
@@GODber777I fully agree with this video, I honestly hate weapon and class nerfs, they are unnecessary and make the gameplay boring
Yeah you can get used to and work around nearly anything, the real question is, is the game better with them?
Yes. Heavy needs a hard counter that isn't easily dealt with by tuning around.
@@ebookie_meowda If you need a hard counter for heavy, your brain needs to be checked at MRI ( brain cancer is no joke, better remove it asap)
Whaat? What do you mean the 17 year old game could have problems?? WHAT??
IMPOSSIBLE
Because game design decisions break over time like car parts?
@@ayumu_osakaunironically yes, TF2 was only meant to be a stocking stuffer for the orange box after playing episode 2 and portal and gradually became a Frankenstein’s monster of a game. Really doubt the og tf team accounted for the 3000+ hour sniper sperg and future unlocks before release.
@@kylemason2836
1) No, TF2 was not just a "stocking stuffer".
2) The Sniper Rifle was last changed in 2008, and most complaints are towards stock sniper, so unlocks have nothing to do with this.
3) No the TF2 devs didnt "not anticipate" people playing and being good at their game.
@@ayumu_osakaNo, they were always bad parts. What you're saying makes zero sense.
@@ayumu_osaka it literally was, valve only developed TF2 further for the sake of experimentation because they had more freedom to do whatever they liked in comparison to developing single player titles like the HL games or a multiplayer game with competitive scene like CS.
sniper was balanced in 07 because of the map pool and lack of mobility. Level 3 tele’s buffed heavy and sniper and made them better classes then on release. The sniper rifle isn’t the issue it’s the speed at which sniper can get to a good spot and hunker down.
And yes I sincerely doubt the TF team expected how good people would become at this game.
when you play spy and the enemies discover you, you are already dead. it would take a master champion of spy to get out of there alive, or a completely braindead enemy.
sniper is much the same, if your enemy manages to reach you, you are already dead. you have to suck real hard to die to a sniper melee when you have a shotgun, rockets, pipes or an instakill stab.
Quickscoping is hard as balls, i suck at sniper and even i know that, when i get quickscoped by a sniper while getting close, i dont think thats bullshit, i put my hat on my hand and aplaude this guy that obliterated me with pure skill, god bless pro snipers.
I'm drawing rn and listening to this in the background, I come back to see I'm only 9 minutes into the video and yea maybe I should find a new video
he only removes options when it comes to flanking. there are 2 other pick classes that no one complains about. it's not a trend people have tried the game without sniper no other class becomes op if you ban him which isn't the case for the other classes.
People don’t complain about the other pick classes because they have to get up close to kill you
Keep bringing out these bangers. You're riling up all the post-2016 crybabies!
Are we really trying to claim the player skill has went down? Are we talking about the same early 2013 tf2 where you could stand still and watch 3 snipers all miss you? Where a phlog pyro could go on 100 killstreaks or topscore playing with a steering wheel and a gas pedal to go forward? Where two uber chaining medics could spawncamp because people kept trying to shoot the shiny men and nobody knew how to go pyro and press m2?
The claim that player skill has went down is the wildest claim I've ever seen on this game.
"Just hope he's bad at aiming, its perfectly balanced"
"Having to fight through potentially thousands of hp to get to him is fair"
"No it doesnt matter that i wear headphones which makes it impossible for spies to sneak up on me. This doesn't effect game balance at all"
"Just hope he isn't looking down the flank route when you move"
"You should have to sacrifice half your hp pool or more to have a chance to cross the only reasonable route you have as the slowest class to reach the fight and play the game"
"No it doesn't matter that literally no other class is designed for extreme range and the closest thing to a response is easy to dodge projectiles"
"Im good at it so it's balanced"
"Clicking a head at long distance where it's easier to track takes lots of skill" (my first dom was on sniper btw, i don't buy that it's harder than the other classes. If anything it's easier)
"Instakills at long range are balanced because the melee sewerslide pick class with a revolver secondary can do it"
Finna make a bingo card for sniper apologia.
People will write paragraphs like this before getting good at the game
@@marcowashere1615 Is he wrong, though?
@@Jareb_Delgado yes and he's also gay
@@marcowashere1615 That projection be hitting hard.
@@Jareb_Delgado project another dad
The reason sniper is hated is because hes so out of place , every other class is close to mid range so putting a long range class in such an game is like this is like they only added him because he was in tfc , if i could change sniper then i would make him more mid range than long range focus
Sniper on itself is actually balanced, what people don't seem to understand being upset about is the foundamental concept of the class itself: ranged oneshots, which is ironically the same reason used against certain items and combinations in the past, and still being used nowadays against random crits.
Trying to "balance" Sniper won't solve anything at best and destroy it the same way competitive oriented mindset destroyed the game at worse.
Edit: 9:18 That video only explains why Sniper as a class is difficult to balance in videogames as a whole, and in the end it even points out the TF2 Sniper as the most balanced.
I can live being shot from the far, I would call it fair. But I really hate being quick scoped. I wish VALVe would just fix the quick scoping bs
balance sniper by nerfing quickscopes. boom, no more 6 out 9 classes instantly dying from a 0.1 second right click left click from far away, now the sniper has to... actually use the charge mechanic.
@@woobgamer5210 5 out 9*, also nerfing the only other skill dependent ability for sniper is asking for 'unforeseen consequences'.
In my opinion, just nerf his ammo, give tracers and fix fast reload exploit and that quickscope would actually have some risk to do. Its not the quickscoping thats the problem, its his spamability to do the quickscopes. If that makes sense.
If he had only like 12 shots, then he would immediately start thinking of using his shots widely and quickscopes would become a 'last resort' like a melee. (cough random crits exist cough)
"If uncledane/zesty jesus says so, it's true!"
great video. reminder that your average tf2 player is complete garbage and can only regurgitate opinions they heard from a tf2 youtuber or from social media, and these are also the same people who think that the only way to counter a sniper is to play sniper
4:04 2FORT
6:42 "chicken is a toggling fa..." 🗿
Ba-ba-ba-based
It doesn't matter how good you are at a light class, you can still be one shot in a split second at ANY range. It's not really a matter of skill.
Note : i did not watch the whole vid while maiing this comment
vIdeO EsSaYs ARe BAD, while making a angry video essay
You must not understand the difference between a video commentary and a video essay.
sniper is fine
t. spy main
8:28 I respect ya. Watched your previous stuff. Keep making more. But isn’t this talk about the video essay a little… ironic?
This isn’t a video essay at all. Video essays are scripted and have tons of editing. Which is the opposite of Gabber’s videos. I’d say his videos are more like old school COD commentaries if anything, with off the cuff post commentary with gameplay in the background.
A real example of a TF2 “video essay” would be Uncle Dane’s random crits video, or his trickle down balance video.
@@VenomSnakeMGS I miss old cod commentaries
@@VenomSnakeMGSboss…
The problem with sniper in my opinion is low risk, high reward, compare that with spy
in order for a spy to insta kill you he needs to first get behind you and attack when you're distracted ,easy on paper but in practice he can gets screwed over by your and his teammates, the janky hit registration or you randomly turning around , a spy puts his life at risk here.
a sniper on the other hand can do that all that while being safe behind his team, theres no risk to missing a shot as a sniper a lot of the time, the only time you get an actual punishment is when you miss against a sniper or another class at closer ranges but most of the time the sniper is far away and safe.
Spy is high risk , high reward
sniper is low risk, high reward.
All the post-mym/2016 players are seething rn.
But this one youtuber told me that sniper is bad so it must be bad
based +rep also hes using soyspeak
Any semi-competent Spy can kill a top scoring sniper, yes the Sniper can kill him but Spy has a gun and can wait for the Sniper to be aiming. I feel I'm in the same shoes you are with seeing players complain about this stuff.
I'm working on a very in-depth video about the discussion about Sniper and balancing him, hopefully it helps improve your outlook!
I'd love to debate this with you sometime, instead of just watching videos with no real back and forth haha
we're not watching your videos, random ass commenter
A point which isnt talked about that much is the way sniper's ammo functions. Sniper basically has a 25 bullet clip. That's massive, considering the dmg he can output. It allows him to stay stationary for a while, in the same general area. Sniper's gameplay would be less repetitive if he had a clip system and reduced ammo capacity (clips of 3 or 5, with a total ammo capacity of 15, for example). It would force him to move around more (retreating a bit to reload an entire clip or get ammo more often) , and act more cautiously (can't quickscope scouts if you're reloading an entire clip). These moments could also give enemy players a bit of a break.
NoO, SnIpER is PeRFecT aS IT Is! He's NOt BroKEn aND LaMe To PLaY, YoU'Re jUsT nOobS aNd IdiOTS, Git GUd!11!
as a trolldier/beggars main just wanna say you sniper mains are aight. y'all work for your 150's and y'all deserve it. I've literally only heard the Nerf sniper shit from bad players. theoretically snipers could win a 1v1 scenario every time against most the lighter classes if they land a headshot but the remaining classes that have more than 150 hp have the tools required to kill a sniper before they get that second shot in. for the remaining classes who get one tapped you'll have to jump the fucker or use your tools accordingly. almost every map has a way around a sightline so theres ways to get the jump on em.