Some of the weapons he's talking about were balanced for casual. Other are either still useful or actually got buffed and he's still complaining about it.
@@corbinallen4562I'll be real with you, I don't even use more than half of my loadout per class because they're just shit to use at all. Call me a bad player, but you don't see players equipping the Liberty Launcher or the Pompson unless a certain tf2youtuber highlights it on their video, and use it for 2 weeks, realise it's shit, and then use stock again.
@SgtStevePH your not a bad player for using stock technically your a good player for doing that. But most of the other classes unlocks have a use in certain situations however expecting every weapon to be on par with stock wouldn't be healthy for the game. Because it would require every weapon to be similar or broken. As long as the weapon has a use it's well designed stuff like the eviction notice,pomson,and bison have there jobs filled by better options thus are bad.
@SgtStevePH a good example of this is demo. Sure the quickie bomb launcher and the Scottish resistance are worse than stock but they preform there jobs which is sticky sniping and traps better.
Bonk was genuinely the most stupid-braindead nerf of any Scout weapon. Not to take away from how dumb all the other nerfs were, but this one was BY-FAR the worst. The entire point - the design philosophy of the old bonk - was to provide a safe passage for the Scout to enter the backline to flank the enemy. To take damage that would otherwise kill or severely cripple him to enter the backline. It made it possible for Scouts to play on constricted maps like dustbowl and not be forcibly switched off by camping Engineers. They couldn't counter engineers with it, but at-least they could avoid their hard-counter the sentry guns! The new design philosophy of the weapon is: "Use the bonk to become invulnerable for 8 seconds to run past your enemies and to absorb damage that would otherwise kill you. Oh, but taking damage slows you to the speed of a Heavy at its worst, and effectively makes you a free kill if someone decides they want to follow you; effectively annihilating all purpose of the weapon." At-least if they made it do self-inflicted mini-crits that scaled with damage, it wouldn't allow the enemy you just ran past to immediately catch up with you again and finish you off, and it would still follow the design philosophy of the old weapon somewhat. With the modern iteration, if you break line of sight they could just catch up to you when the slow effect activates and you'll be dead. Wow, super fun and intuitive weapon to use, especially considering in most situations you might not even need the bonk to get behind. If you're good enough at flanking, you need no reason for a weapon like the bonk, you can just DO it. I miss the old days where I would just use bonk to mess with the enemy and annoy them from behind. Now it feels like using the weapon is annoying to ME. A few bullets and someone to follow me, I'll be as good as dead using this garbage, no matter my skill.
Meet your Match was absolutely the catalyst for why TF2 is in such a sad state now, the Jungle Inferno update was just a follow-up to it. If the Meet your Match update never happened, just imagine where this game would be today.
Valve's weapon balance cycle : 1) Add a weapon to a game 2) After a few changes It stays the same for years because no one really has a problem with it 3) Comp players and buzzkills start comlaining about it endlessly 4) It gets nefted into dust just to make sure no one whines about it ever again
@@ivanthehighman177 Good. We need these alternative opinions which have been shunned by the mainstream TF2 populace to become popular again. The opinions expressed by Gabber are what the opinions of people in older TF2 resemble, which have largely been lost to time as the playerbase shifted to majority-2017+. Therefore all these newer players have to go off of is the new, mainstream opinions pushed by all these popular RUclipsrs and the community in general, and it creates an echo chamber of sorts.
Trickle down balancement is a myth which only works when competitive and non competitive play the game in the same exact way like CS and modern fighting games, while even then is far from perfect, and in TF2 is like the two sides play two completely different games that only share code and assets, it could never work for it, and infact it didn't. I would also point out another curious balancing coincidence when b4nny was invited to Valve HQ at somepoint before MYM, and among other things: the previous stickies nerf was reverted and buffed even further (he is a Demo main) and the Degreased got changed with the increased airblast cost he suggested in one of this videos (which ironically did nothing to nerf the weapon).
idk about fighter games but with cs2 the idea of trickle down doesn't really work that great between casual and comp play because comp is heavily balanced around economic play for example autosniper and smgs in comp play if you buy a 5k bucks autosniper either you have been throwing your economy by saving when you should have bought or you are stomping the enemy team so hard 5k is nothing, and smgs like mac10 makes sense to buy during eco rounds in casual you have a bottomless wallet and armour auto equipped, the only reason why you wouldn't buy a autosniper is out of honor (you don't want to be votekicked) and there is no reason to buy a smg like mac10 because it has bad armor piercing (unless you just want to practice spray) if you wanted comp/casual cs2 to work with trickle down balance then you would have to make casual less fun by applying the same economy rules that comp has (maybe even more harsher because you have more enemies to kill and get bounty out of)
@@Kotoko-IwanagaHence why I said "...even then is far from perfect" implying that it doesn't work as it should even in those environments where one might think they would.
Although I agree that trickle down balance is a myth. A good chunk of the weapons he's talking about are either still good or were balanced for new players not comp. He's even complaining about a weapon getting buffed lol. I do agree that weapons like the eviction notice need a buff but that's due to a bug affecting health regen.
Oh, so he's why the Degreaser is fucking dogshit now. I loved airblasting people with that shit. Cool. Glad to know competitive streamers ruin literally everything as fucking usual.
Uncle Dane also has a video where he complains about having to make videos on valve servers because people on them have the audacity to have fun dancing, and maybe leave the game for x reason so the teams get unbalanced and his team either gets stomped or wins so hard it's boring. I wish people would understand that this game is his JOB and he wants to make his job easier. Dane and his ilk saw Overwatch coming, panicked and raised a stink to Valve that TF2 had to change to compete with Overwatch because he knew even his sycophant viewers would migrate over even temporarily to the new hot game.
That pretty much describes a portion of the competitive mindset as a whole: they do not actually want the game to be balanced, they want things they themselves consider an obstacle to their "skill" to be removed so they can have their way with the game easy.
And who is fault that tf2 servers is like that and people leaving and we have endless steamrolling and one sided matches. that's right MYM and Valve doubling down with JI. i miss Quickplay. the good thing about Quick play. you could easily find servers with people who want to play the game (still more focused on fun) and other servers that are less serious. now we have neither, unless if you are lucky to have community server like that near you. what is not the case for me who live in low tf2 population area. don't get me started on uncletopia copycat servers. it's so rare to find just vanilla tf2 community servers.
Jungle Inferno is also the "blindingly white flashbang flamethrower particles" update, probably one of the worst visual changes that ever happened to tf2. Other than jungle, Gun Mettle also changed the few remaining stock weapons to the C model system and made them look like pure shit with badly configured materials so that they would implement the contract/case csgo skin bullshit. It's like anything added to this game around post 2014 is all downgrades from every aspect with very very few improvements, hell at this point I'd rather have somewhat annoying things the sandman stun or random damage spread exist rather than this post Gunmettle+MYM+Jungle version of zombie tf2.
Honest to god though, if I could go back in time and just revert all of TF2 to 2014 I would do it in a heartbeat. If Valve left us on an update from 2014, I wouldn't give nearly as much of a toss as I do in this parallel universe. But the mere fact we were left on such a bogus, poorly-implemented set of TWO sh%tty updates is like salt in the wound of not getting any more updates period. Sandman was my favourite weapon back in the day, now I can't even use it without shooting myself in the foot anymore. Same for the bonk. You're ALSO shooting yourself in the foot using it with the horrendous slowdown mechanic which allows the enemies you're SUPPOSED to get past (as in the design of the weapon) to immediately catch right up with you again and leave you a sitting duck, defeating the whole purpose of the weapon. I'd be less pissed if its downside was scaled minicrits with damage, because at-least then you can still take cover and run away once it wears off, but of-course Valve pick the least intuitive weapon downside possible.
What makes jungle inferno and meet your match so frustrating to me is not only is it the reason tf2 stopped getting updates because of how hard they flopped (moreso mym, but still) but its also what's responsible for that space update they teased never coming to fruition. I'm sure you remember this, but the writing was on the wall for there to be a space themed update because of the teasers they had on the blog, the little silvery cube props on powerhouse when it was added, and also just the direction the last comic was going in. It all set up to go in that direction but the comptard bullshit took valve's attention and made them put all that on the backburner just to eventually abandon it. It's tragic knowing there was going to be a REAL and PROPER tf2 update, but naah you get your half-assed pyro update which just made pyro even worse as a class. thanks, valve. :/
For real. My hatred for comp grows more and more as I realise just how much bad influence they've had over this game over time. I've always disliked them, but I might be crossing into genuine hatred territory because of what they've done to this game. Gone are the wacky 2012 days where you had a huge variety of weapon options that were all fun to use and master. It's such a joke.
dont forget the experimental gamemodes, im pretty sure at least 1 or 2 were also space themed.Too bad they got removed, used to really like them aswell.
Played tf2 since the free2play update, while agree that the nerfs and changes weren't good, the fact they got touched at all wasnt the problem. The problem was that the weapons got nerfed with no additions to supplement their power lost. Sandman is a perfect example. The old sandman was terrible for anyone fighting it, theres no way around that. Being able to completely take away someones ability to play the game and then one shot them wasnt fun at all on the reciving end. I was never impressed by a sandman cleaver user unless it was a moonshot, it just made me annoyed to the point of becoming an engineer main and never having to deal with it. However removing the one thing that made it good then replacing it nothing was such a massive fuck up, im amazed the nerf got into the patch at all. This trends with every weapon you mentioned. The base jumper is an entirely fair point however. The redaploy strat was only a problem in 6's because in a pub setting there is a million solutions to that issue. The strat in 6'e necessitated creating a hole in your defences by picking a sniper to lock him down, probably giving up something important like a demo or your own solider, or your engie moving his gear to lock that area down, making the far more important area he was already defending more vulnerable, if they had one at all. And even with the change made to fix that exact "problem" the community still has it band because a competent solider can still do that, just not as long lol. Absolute fail of a change. The problem isnt comp players asking for changes, its the tf2 devs not doing the changes right then fucking off when they only did half the work. (No clue why the fuck they even touched the eviction notice though, holy shit give me my brass knuckles back.)
I remember even though the old YER wasn't exactly a good option to have in terms of viability, it was really fun to experiment with it as a challenge item, so you had to really EARN your disguises rather than just being able to swap to different disguises which made it way more rewarding as a weapon concept. Now the weapon just straight up feels painful to use with how quickly cloak drains. The only way it's semi-viable nowadays is if you pair it with the letranger. That's basically it, and even then it depletes quicker compared to normal stock anyway. Again, just some fun weapon minding its business, not even OP in the slightest, and Valve curbstomps it for no good reason to take the fun out of the weapon, which is exactly what happened to the plethora of scout weapons nerfed in Jungle Inferno.
realizing how everybody in tf2 community that i respected ruined tf2 by implementing competitive game, im just upset...this is desapointing...... thank you for showing this perspective.
4:50 Among the weapons nerfed, the Caber. It was so fun to like on 2fort, sticky jump into the opposing team battlements, caber a sniper, die, respawn and do it again. Stupid maybe but fun.
Hard agree on almost all points in this video. I also want to add that even casual community is affected by constant comp players' whining and adopted it: asking for nerfs to weapons, classes or abilities that don't really need them at all. Comp community, a fucking minority, corrupted even casual playerbase. Utterly ridiculous.
Comp players back then were literally some of the most toxic, loudest, and hardest to please people on the planet. It's a shame that people don't drill that point enough, since it explains so much of why the game is in the state that it is in today. Even after Valve giving them almost everything they've asked for on a silver platter for two updates straight, they still had the gall to bitch and complain. No wonder Valve abandoned us.
Uncle Dane unironically believed that by 2023 new players would cite comp as the reason they started playing the game. I used to like him but "What's wrong with the engineer?" and "Trickle Down Balance" are some of the worst TF2 videos on the platform.
I don't think Dane was anticipating Valve to just stop updating the game and leave competitive mode in an unfinished, broken, unplayable state. If they gave the game an additional 5 years worth of genuine improvements, we'd be in a better timeline.
@@SolarLight no retard, had they spent the last 7 years listening to the autists who dont know what half the weapons in this game do and the guy that said he plays engineer because he doesnt like fps games, the game would probably be even worse of
@@SolarLightdawg comp players laugh at you for suggesting that demoknight could ever be viable, they dont like half the roster of the game, they always complain about heavy engineer and pyro but never about demoman or medic
Valve is bad af at balancing for both casual and comp. You don't do such balance changes once every year. You see that people complain about a weapon being too weak? Max 3-6 months and you change it again. And you do it for as long as players are happy.
It was already Heavy's worst melee weapon, but because it gave him a speed boost it warranted nerfing, because god forbid Heavy gets to the frontlines a little bit faster
Balancing weapons based on feedback from a part of the community that just bans whatever weapons they don't like is a really stupid concept. You're really going to balance them to appease players who haven't even used or played against these weapons in years because they play on a modded comp version of the game?
"I can't believe they didn't want skill in the game anymore. Why did they nerf the Sandman?" *30 minutes later* "And get this, they made a flamethrower that you have to aim!"
He was pointing out the contradiction of making a weapon harder to use but with not only little reward but just detrimental to your load out. It's not fun, it's not good, it's just bad.
@@phdonny As it's already been pointed out, i like DF's design, it's just objectively worse than a normal flamethrower, while taking significantly more skill to use, should be the opposite.
the dragon's fury has always been the better choice for actually killing enemies, unless you intend to combo with a shotgun/flare gun to kill enemies at medium range. otherwise the dragon's fury will always be the best choice for direct combat due to the potential killing time
Holy shit, the GOAT is back. Based Machina colat: 56:01. Once again, you're right. I never liked the Jungle Inferno update but I think it was more about just bitterness over MyM still lingering and TF2 not feeling the same after it and yeah once I was done with the contracts and got my money back selling crates I just stopped playing TF2. I've probably put like 50 hours into it over the past 7 years as opposed to the 1000+ I put into it beforehand. It's interesting, you mentioned that Uncle Dane's Trickle down balance was retarded and I was confused because I remember his reasoning being that the top players abuse it while the bottom players don't (although, I've never seen anyone use it in pubs so I assumed it was a comp thing) so it makes sense to balance for them. His example was the Base Jumper being able to be opened and closed as much as you want and showed a Soldier using it in the sky to dodge tons and tons of projectiles and then it made sense why it was balanced.....until you fucking showed that they just BLACKLISTED the fucking thing anyway! What's the fucking point if THEY won't even use the weapons that are balanced around them? We're fucking never going to get the Heavy update at this rate and honestly even if we did I'm sure they'd fuck it up somehow. Keep uploading man, you're the best TF2 RUclipsr out there.
@@AltLmaoo idk why my comment got deleted but I can't use the sandman nor other weapons pre-JI. Also, the admins are fucking pussies, got muted for saying "rxpe yellow team" as a joke, old tf2 fanbase wouldn't care. So tired of these snowflakes. If you don't like it, disable fucking chat, its that simple.
@@Izywik90 It's less about the skill that went into using the sandman, and more about how it affected game balance, I think its a pretty straightforward and easy to understand concept that making a player unable to do anything for any amount of time is just unfun to play against and saying it getting nerfed was a bad idea is just inherently stupid, feel free to clap back with anything but I stand by my point, someone having to be skilled at aiming a projectile doesn't justify the sheer annoyance it brings to game balance
@@GleebieDeebie So not being able to do anything for getting hit by a projectile that you are able to dodge is overpowered and unfun?! you're the type of person that probably likes things to be easy for them instead of getting good at video games. Go play Overwatch where your BS competitive propaganda is welcomed. I'm guessing you played after Jungle Inferno and got your info from Uncle Dane.
I agree with everything with this video except on the dragon fury. If they want dragon fury to be more a skill based weapon, give the airblast penalty when you miss your air blast. Beside that, dragon fury is a fun weapon. You have farther reach than other pyros flamethrowers. Engies cannot use building as a cover. With consecutive hits, you can outdamage the base flamethrower.
The thing you have to understand about some of their "nerfs" is that the purpose of at least some of them is not actually to balance the item in question. Removing an item from the game would be a really bad PR move and set a terrible presedent for the game, so they instead remove it "The Valve way". Also the reason why comp players hate the bonk is because it's like an Eureka Effect for the Scout (not defending the nerf). And in case you are thinking about that desision too hard yes, they would have seen that this nerf wouldn't even fix the problem that the competive players were talking about, and I am certain after seeing the gas passer that they do not playtest their game which is ironic considering they apperently are playtesting phanatics to the point where they were playtesting Portal 1 only into a week in development.
@@chainsawplayin Highlander is basically that. The only weapons that are banned are the ones that screw over mobility classes for no reason (natasha, reserve shooter) annoying weapons (scorch shot, diamondback) and all of the throwable weapons. What those games turn into is the demo ordering the entire team as his pawns while the sniper shuts down the entire map. That format would probably be a lot more interesting if they made a special ruleset that banned sniper. Also, there is a version of 6's that has no whitelist. The meta is 2 demos, 2 natasha heavies, and 2 vacc medics. The whitelist is there to add variety into the format by removing playstyles that either force the other team to copy what they are doing, or turn the other team into an unbreakable wall.
@@japester5927 Competitive TF2 and Competitive Melee are strikingly similar in how they have gimped the original game so hard for so long that it's essentially a different thing at that point. You also have the stale-ass enforced metas of the same 5 maps, characters, playstyles, etc going on for decades now. I remember one of the original TF2 devs around 2014 talking about how they got bored watching such matches since everything had already stagnated even back then.
On the topic of nerfing weapons or balancing weapons From my experience, if a weapon lowers your hp at all times, it is practically ruined The sandman takes away health, making it practically unusable because Scout desperately needs health to survive more than one hit, if it just had the stun removed the weapon would still be fine The Vita Saw drains your health which is kinda ironic cuz the weapon practically encourages to to get yourself blown up The demoknight swords atleast have items that counter the health drain Maybe there’s more examples but you get the idea
Whilst this video may seem conteoversial i mostly agree with everything you said, it fucking baffles me that Valve just butchered a lot of fun options to "cater to the competitive scene that tf2 could've actually had guys! Yes guys tf2 couldve been a competitive shooter! Even though it was never designed with the intention of being one!! I swear guys believe me it could!!" The truth is that tf2 was created as a fun casual game, and should've remained as such, to say tf2 is shit nowadays is a bit of an exageration but i can understand where the feeling comes from, they took away a lot of the fun and stabbed in the leg our beautiful shooter game
I have no idea why i love these videos discussing the old state of the game and weapons. Guess i just like reminiscing about the good time. rip The Sandman my beloved
@@ivanthehighman177 He definitely does. He gets shit on by the exact same shills Gab talks about here for having the “wrong opinions” or not liking trannies or whatever. His content is just good anyway, regardless of all of that shit
i 100000% fucking agree with you pal. no extra add-ins for me. Before, TF2 was THE "most fun game you can have online", with weapons that are so fun, unique, and cool to use. But now TF2 is just like any ol' fps game, with weapons that are just any ol' fps weapons. MyM and Jungle Inferno devs wanted to transform the game into the modern fps type, but It's fucking stupid because TF2 WILL NEVER FIT TO THE CURRENT FPS GENRE. "Most fun you can have online". not "Skill-based", not "Competitive". TF2 was meant to be a hangout. It was meant to be a chatroom while you have fun killing people. If you want to make it comp, there's already websites for that. You DONT NEED TO MAKE THE BASE TF2 COMP. It really, REALLY saddens me the state TF2 is in rn. The atmosphere of TF2, and its fans have changed. People nowadays just don't know what TF2 is anymore.
You're saying what we've been thinking for years. Thank you for speaking out against this. Listening to the competitive scene was the worst mistake Valve ever did for the game.
Ive tried to get back into tf2 after jungle inferno numerous times and i just couldn't be bothered to and i never really knew why before i saw this video.
Valve made the jetpack in line with the average fresh-install Pyro mindset, by making it as unskilled and easy as possible. Just point and click where you want to go! No advanced movement techniques to learn and master or anything fun like that because it would require Pyro mains unlock 100% of their brainpower to use.
The YER was so great before its "buff." It was meant to be a real surprise for the enemy. It's used the least because it was the highest risk yet highest reward knife. I was good enough to go on 20+ killstreaks with the damn thing because no one uses it, so it's extremely surprising to the enemy when you do use it. To blend into the fray and wipe whole clusters of enemies with a silent killer that was seldom used made it so powerful. Its rarity is what gave it its true power. Nowadays if you use it just like it was pre Jungle Inferno, you are at a disadvantage due to the stupid cloak penalty. You are punished by being so good as a spy who doesn't need an initial disguise. What world does that make sense? None. I'm sorry that the little babies who just got TF2 and somehow got the YER as their first drop isn't useable to you right off the bat, maybe you should learn how the game works fully before you use such a radical departure from spy.
I never even had the impression that anyone thought it was "underpowered". It was always good. And if they wanted to buff it, they could have made it an actual silent kill by removing the stab sound. Instead, my second favorite knife turned into the worst item for the entire class as a purported buff.
@@GODber777 It should have either been left alone or given something to incentive players to use it but still keep it unique, like a 20 percent cloak duration. But nah, that sounds like it makes too much sense. "Buff" it into the damn dirt.
"This guy was really pissed when he died, shit, he's even pissed now! His bones have crystalized into pure rage!" I'm w/ you %100 now, guy knows sum gud shit right here
STAR_ and Dane are like opposite sides of the same "please give an update" coin. I remember before he took his break, his complaints were more, "oh hey, this weapon is fucked and you'd know if you played a single round. It makes the game _unfun_ . Does anyone developing this game actually give a shit?" I think his hopeful attitude about matchmaking was more hoping it would make the devs not sit on their ass for years to fix a bug that made it cancer to play the game(3 years to fix mini sentries being nearly invincible while building). I'm still grieving the Air Strike being nerfed. It was so fun and stupid 😂
i love uncle dane and funke but during around 2016-2017 they were really pushing that tf2 should be a competitive sport and weapon balance should be based around that. why they were pushing this is obvious, its because overwatch was HUGE at that time and it was a game that was focusing more on competitive play and based everything on the game around that, but now when you think about that you just have to try not to laugh at how poorly that aged because overwatch is doing a lot worse than it did before and esports is dying (not even really dying, it's just dead at this point lol). i always thought this wasn't the way to go about balance because of things that you mention, comp players are a minority and they handle balance themselves with bans. speaking of which it's crazy to see the base jumper which was neutered still banned LOL, it really goes to show that it's pointless catering to them. like, comp literally plays only like 5cp how are you going to balance all of your weapons based on like 1 mode. this is probably why overwatch is a lot less popular than it was because they REALLY focused on comp and it just ended up making metas like goats that no one liked. the last 2 big updates of tf2 were chasing a pipedream that not even the game they were trying to follow reached and it's sad to see.
I'm really glad you're putting work into making videos, please keep it up & tell everyone what they need to hear :) I got complacent waiting for the heavy update or fucking anything to undo all the god-awful balance post 2016 and just assumed "oh they're working on it"; only for that day to never come. you know, if heavy did win I think his class update would've been mishandled by the post MYM dev team, so in a twist of irony pyro winning left a worse mark on his reputation. not that I wish for any class to be neglected or scorned, I wish things were different atleast comic #7 is still on the way... for 7 years...
It's unfortunate that people are going to fixate on the inflammatory remarks towards the beginning of the video and not actually watch through. This guy makes some good points.
Well here's how i see it: How often do you see the "good points" (thanks) you saw here made on YT? Not very often. Why? Well because everyone's buddy buddy with each other and no one wants to say anything out of line and it's essentially a circlejerk. I would say that the "inflammatory remarks" are perfectly warranted. No. I have no respect for competitive tf2 or the people affiliated with pushing it. And why should i? They fucked up my favorite game. I could pretend to be respectful, and i could pretend that i don't consider them motherless fucks, or i could be honest. I chose to be honest.
I think TF2's balancing in its most recent major updates (assuming it even gets them again by some miracle), is a good case is why you can't just take feedback and aspects from a game's competitive scene in a game where the casual and comp rulesets are drastically different from each other. Smash is a great example of this, in competitive Ultimate, Ganondorf is widely considered to be the worst in the game, but in casual settings (primarily Free for Alls) he is extremely strong since his weaknesses that hold him back in competitive don't really matter in those environments. Same principle applies to TF2, weapons that aren't an issue in Casual are busted in Competitive and vice verse because they are effectively different games with how they are set up. You can even this happen in Competitive TF2 itself with 6v6 and Highlander due to differences in class limits and player count. And besides that even, balancing for competitive TF2 shouldn't have even have been an issue for Valve because they will just ban the weapons that don't fit their environments much like how Smash players ban stages based on their environments and you don't see people begging Nintendo to change those stages to fit their liking in their game, so I don't know why people pushed this mentality for TF2.
the only good balance change i can think of in this update was reverting the claid and re-adding the 0.5 seconds extra charge because valve nerfed the claid for no reason. do you remember what valve replaced the charge duration with in tough break? +25 health on kill. wow thanks valve i sure needed 25 extra health playing a fucking melee subclass
The reason that the nerfed items are still banned in competitive is simple: competitive players refuse to change their meta. Example: the base jumper is banned not because it's overpowered, but because the typical comp team of 2 Scouts, 1 Demo, 1 Medic & 2 Soldiers would make a guy hovering in the air hard to hit for 4/6 players. And no, they don't want to switch to Sniper, Engineer or Heavy, the Direct Hit is also an unpopular item in comp. Comp sixes will always be a stale meta on a unpopular gamemode (5CP) and that's fine, the issue is when the entire game changes to cater to such a niche playstyle.
I have to say one thing clearly: balancing tf2 around competitive is like attempting to squeeze a lemon and expectiing orange juice, but the "nerf" of the crit-a-cola and sandman cleaver combo (that one actually hurts to say) were warranted for one thing: They were great to play with, but terrible to play against. A good scout who knows how to use the sandman cleaver was absolute dogwater to fight on very open maps with large skyboxes, because the scout could just throw a hail mary and kill you without you even being able to react (Because stunning and slowdown fucking reek in a fast paced game like tf2). How they nerfed the sandman was an absolute disgrace and I give you that one wholeheartedly, but it did need a nerf just so the guy receiving the assblasting doesnt want to throw out his computer because he got killed four towns over by the class specializing in cqc. The crit a cola gave the scout too much range for free for 1v1 encounters (something that is in the core philosophy from tf2) and giving (most arguably) one of the best primary in the game a free buff banner charge was a bit too much (and every day a scunt cries is a day where an angel gets his wings)
57:57 Basically. I didn't like a lot of the shit Valve did post-2015, even the stuff we got in 2015 was kinda weird and meh, but once we reached 2017 we had all that shit. For a good year we had no fucking autobalance, which made almost every single pub turn into a 12v6 within a round or two, we got the stupid-ass catbots and then that crappy update. I came back in 2019/20 for community MvM, but barely touched normal MP. Now, again, I haven't really played for the past 2 years. Only on and off for maybe a few days tops here and there.
youre right aobut everything here except the dragons fury. the weapon is fun it absolutely CHEWS through people its great. the extra range is probably the best part about it
7:37 And that is really trash idea even back then, i am believer in the hierarchy balancing system. where you do actually have something objectively stronger, like how the soldier in tf2 is really good because of his mobility and ability to hit multiple classes that being said, everything should have limitation but not too much. this why UD balancing philosophy is bad. if everything is on the same level. then nothing is. this is the definition of stagnation and what is recurring theme with competitive games in the past years ? *STAGNATION*
I agree, I miss the old ambassador, like I use to crouch as a spy on the 2fort sniper sight lines and pretended to be a sniper headshotting people. I also miss the old panic attack
I don't agree with any of the wepon nerfs, and I see no reason why a valve competitive mode couldn't be implemented without adding this bastardized casual mode instead of just keeping quickplay the way that it was or with a few tweaks that would have kept even non valve servers populated. I can't put all the blame on the competitive community for the failure of the official valve competitive mode. It was obvious from the beginning that it wasn't going to replace third-party pug sites, but the least valve could have done was actually listen to what the community wanted in the first place. They didn't implement class restrictions or item restrictions because they wanted to do things their own way. There were other options and suggestions, like having a vote ban system like in most MOBAs before the start of the match, where you can ban at least one wepon or one class so that high mmr matches don't turn into two vaccinator medics and two heavy/demos every time. Having the ability to pick the gamemode or map you want to play would also be nice, not to mention that votekick has been disabled, so even if you run into a solo cheater, you don't have the ability to kick them.
ya, i wish it went down defrently, at lest the game is still living even if some people dont like it, but what do I know i havent played through a tf2 update before. I wonder how the golden age of tf2 was like
i started playing in 2020 during lockdown, and i can tell you even when i began, i realized most weapons are shit. when playing rolled back servers, the fun and experimentation increased by an astronomic unit; would love to see these better iterations on casual.
the most insulting nerfs for you were the sandman and ambassador in jungle inferno but the unnecessary nerfs started even before meet your match, gun mettle killed the ullapool caber in 2015 and is the single reason i fucking hate that update.
War on fun is a good title for it. GRU and Eviction notice, weapons that hardly needed a nerf, got put 6 feet under a concrete vault after Jungle Inferno. No more being a dumbass heavy minicritting people for speedboosts with your brass knuckles, because you've lost all your health by the time you reach melee range without being shot yet.
8:59 your so right, in a recent video he contiuned to defend jungle inferno, this is not a coincidence, he was a reason the changes happened in this update.
If they really wanted to "fix" the Sandman, an easy way to do it is just to make the stun only apply to headshots, and have the slow applied elsewhere. It doesn't need this "fix" but it is definitely a better alternative than neutering the weapon fully.
I never made 2+2 and thought about the fact that now they wanted to caretake to comp so bad to follow their ideas to balance weapons. To this day I've seen very few dragon fury's pyos, it must mean something XD
19:29 Who tf actually thinks that it was comp players that got the Ambassador nerfed. You know that you can run sniper full time in any competitive mode which is basically a 10x better amby spy right?
@@Izywik90 You just know thats not true lol (refer back to my statement about spy being horrible in 6s, rather than running spy full time with Amby you can just run sniper which has a scope and at minimum does 48 dmg more). I do however remember some pubbers pre 2017 complaining about across the map headshots.
@@ruzgar1372 Here’s how I see it. Pre-nerf, Not really, Spy has more mobility than Sniper so if you were a good and skilled Amby user it would come in handy to headshot people, Spy and Sniper were both equally good in certain situations (yes even in 6v6). Post-nerf, unfortunately yes you’re correct. Anyway nobody likes 6v6 anymore, you’ll likely be waiting 2 hours for a lobby to be full.
Sigafoo had been wanting an amby nerf for years. And he visited valve offices suspiciously close before the nerf. He's one of those dummies that think spy should never be played full-time.
Why the fuck didnt they just make the GRU have the marked for death still active for like 3-5 seconds after you put them away, that would have made them perfect without changing them that much
I don't think he has. I still remember when the sandman got nerfed and he was STILL calling for it to be nerfed again because "slows are unfun hurr durr I'm uncle dane so I know what I'm talking about."
Dane definityvly did not change. There are many exampes of that. I still remember his hotakes video and that part about cosmetics. Lukly peple caled him out. Also his servers are basikly just casual. I watched his 2016-2018 content and it was full of wery bad takes. Spesialy when you realize that he was prazing casual from the day one even tho it is stil broken to this day. Also he started the whole random crits debate. Witch is kompleatly usles becose Qvikplay had that as a option. I just don't like him.
The war on fun started when everyone bought into the competitive hype. what worse. even after the competitive gaming start to die out. the really terrible balancing mentality stayed. then you got people with the gut to say "games are no longer fun" no s%$#
Funnily enough, reversing Jungle Inferno would actually FixTF2 in both the fun of the game AND the bot crisis. At this point I don’t care enough, it’s long gone and Valve clearly has stopped caring as well. It’s a disgrace but man, I do miss that old tf2. Siberian snowfall timeline please!
If meet your match and jungle inferno were the planes that hit the towers, then uncle dane was osama bin laden
??? Bars ??? You need to be behind them !!!
This implies that he was an unimportant shitstain that got scapegoated. Just ask the dancing students who did it.
this is the most genius analogy ever give this man a cup of apple juice
@@BenisDD I mean this video is clear evidence of that scapegoating
Hey look at that I got deleted. Doubt it was automated.
The competitive revolution and it's consequences have been a disaster for the casual race.
Some of the weapons he's talking about were balanced for casual. Other are either still useful or actually got buffed and he's still complaining about it.
@@corbinallen4562I'll be real with you, I don't even use more than half of my loadout per class because they're just shit to use at all.
Call me a bad player, but you don't see players equipping the Liberty Launcher or the Pompson unless a certain tf2youtuber highlights it on their video, and use it for 2 weeks, realise it's shit, and then use stock again.
@SgtStevePH your not a bad player for using stock technically your a good player for doing that. But most of the other classes unlocks have a use in certain situations however expecting every weapon to be on par with stock wouldn't be healthy for the game. Because it would require every weapon to be similar or broken. As long as the weapon has a use it's well designed stuff like the eviction notice,pomson,and bison have there jobs filled by better options thus are bad.
@SgtStevePH a good example of this is demo. Sure the quickie bomb launcher and the Scottish resistance are worse than stock but they preform there jobs which is sticky sniping and traps better.
nerfing BONK of all things was either a comptard idea or a delusional engi main idea, i can't think of any other possibility
Bonk was genuinely the most stupid-braindead nerf of any Scout weapon. Not to take away from how dumb all the other nerfs were, but this one was BY-FAR the worst. The entire point - the design philosophy of the old bonk - was to provide a safe passage for the Scout to enter the backline to flank the enemy. To take damage that would otherwise kill or severely cripple him to enter the backline. It made it possible for Scouts to play on constricted maps like dustbowl and not be forcibly switched off by camping Engineers. They couldn't counter engineers with it, but at-least they could avoid their hard-counter the sentry guns!
The new design philosophy of the weapon is: "Use the bonk to become invulnerable for 8 seconds to run past your enemies and to absorb damage that would otherwise kill you. Oh, but taking damage slows you to the speed of a Heavy at its worst, and effectively makes you a free kill if someone decides they want to follow you; effectively annihilating all purpose of the weapon."
At-least if they made it do self-inflicted mini-crits that scaled with damage, it wouldn't allow the enemy you just ran past to immediately catch up with you again and finish you off, and it would still follow the design philosophy of the old weapon somewhat. With the modern iteration, if you break line of sight they could just catch up to you when the slow effect activates and you'll be dead.
Wow, super fun and intuitive weapon to use, especially considering in most situations you might not even need the bonk to get behind. If you're good enough at flanking, you need no reason for a weapon like the bonk, you can just DO it. I miss the old days where I would just use bonk to mess with the enemy and annoy them from behind. Now it feels like using the weapon is annoying to ME. A few bullets and someone to follow me, I'll be as good as dead using this garbage, no matter my skill.
Meet your Match was absolutely the catalyst for why TF2 is in such a sad state now, the Jungle Inferno update was just a follow-up to it. If the Meet your Match update never happened, just imagine where this game would be today.
Valve's weapon balance cycle : 1) Add a weapon to a game 2) After a few changes It stays the same for years because no one really has a problem with it 3) Comp players and buzzkills start comlaining about it endlessly 4) It gets nefted into dust just to make sure no one whines about it ever again
I love the fact that many games like halo and Tf2 was ruined by devs catering to competive players, it's totally something I won't smash my head over!
16:46 The difference is trade minecraft players most likely know how mad milk works.
Your unhinged ranting is amazing. I also agree with a lot of the takes from this video.
I love your commentary, your delivery of your frustrations is really funny
now this is podracing
Idk which RUclipsr posted this on twitter, but this video has blown up with the community.
@@ivanthehighman177 Good. We need these alternative opinions which have been shunned by the mainstream TF2 populace to become popular again. The opinions expressed by Gabber are what the opinions of people in older TF2 resemble, which have largely been lost to time as the playerbase shifted to majority-2017+. Therefore all these newer players have to go off of is the new, mainstream opinions pushed by all these popular RUclipsrs and the community in general, and it creates an echo chamber of sorts.
@@JeffarryLounderexactly, I hope zesty Jesus and others share this video
Oh my god XD
PIPE DOWN ZESTYJESUS!!!
Trickle down balancement is a myth which only works when competitive and non competitive play the game in the same exact way like CS and modern fighting games, while even then is far from perfect, and in TF2 is like the two sides play two completely different games that only share code and assets, it could never work for it, and infact it didn't.
I would also point out another curious balancing coincidence when b4nny was invited to Valve HQ at somepoint before MYM, and among other things: the previous stickies nerf was reverted and buffed even further (he is a Demo main) and the Degreased got changed with the increased airblast cost he suggested in one of this videos (which ironically did nothing to nerf the weapon).
idk about fighter games but with cs2 the idea of trickle down doesn't really work that great between casual and comp play because comp is heavily balanced around economic play
for example autosniper and smgs
in comp play if you buy a 5k bucks autosniper either you have been throwing your economy by saving when you should have bought or you are stomping the enemy team so hard 5k is nothing, and smgs like mac10 makes sense to buy during eco rounds
in casual you have a bottomless wallet and armour auto equipped, the only reason why you wouldn't buy a autosniper is out of honor (you don't want to be votekicked) and there is no reason to buy a smg like mac10 because it has bad armor piercing (unless you just want to practice spray)
if you wanted comp/casual cs2 to work with trickle down balance then you would have to make casual less fun by applying the same economy rules that comp has (maybe even more harsher because you have more enemies to kill and get bounty out of)
@@Kotoko-IwanagaHence why I said "...even then is far from perfect" implying that it doesn't work as it should even in those environments where one might think they would.
I'd say fighters is the only instance where it works out imo.
Although I agree that trickle down balance is a myth. A good chunk of the weapons he's talking about are either still good or were balanced for new players not comp. He's even complaining about a weapon getting buffed lol. I do agree that weapons like the eviction notice need a buff but that's due to a bug affecting health regen.
Oh, so he's why the Degreaser is fucking dogshit now. I loved airblasting people with that shit. Cool. Glad to know competitive streamers ruin literally everything as fucking usual.
Uncle Dane also has a video where he complains about having to make videos on valve servers because people on them have the audacity to have fun dancing, and maybe leave the game for x reason so the teams get unbalanced and his team either gets stomped or wins so hard it's boring. I wish people would understand that this game is his JOB and he wants to make his job easier. Dane and his ilk saw Overwatch coming, panicked and raised a stink to Valve that TF2 had to change to compete with Overwatch because he knew even his sycophant viewers would migrate over even temporarily to the new hot game.
That pretty much describes a portion of the competitive mindset as a whole: they do not actually want the game to be balanced, they want things they themselves consider an obstacle to their "skill" to be removed so they can have their way with the game easy.
And who is fault that tf2 servers is like that and people leaving and we have endless steamrolling and one sided matches. that's right MYM and Valve doubling down with JI. i miss Quickplay. the good thing about Quick play. you could easily find servers with people who want to play the game (still more focused on fun) and other servers that are less serious. now we have neither, unless if you are lucky to have community server like that near you. what is not the case for me who live in low tf2 population area.
don't get me started on uncletopia copycat servers. it's so rare to find just vanilla tf2 community servers.
@@animewolfOtakuwolf comp is the embodiment of stagnation and accepted good vs bad
@@CoolSs i mean i agree. Nuking sniper wouldn't fix anything. They would move on to botting something else.
Jungle Inferno is also the "blindingly white flashbang flamethrower particles" update, probably one of the worst visual changes that ever happened to tf2.
Other than jungle, Gun Mettle also changed the few remaining stock weapons to the C model system and made them look like pure shit with badly configured materials so that they would implement the contract/case csgo skin bullshit.
It's like anything added to this game around post 2014 is all downgrades from every aspect with very very few improvements, hell at this point I'd rather have somewhat annoying things the sandman stun or random damage spread exist rather than this post Gunmettle+MYM+Jungle version of zombie tf2.
Honest to god though, if I could go back in time and just revert all of TF2 to 2014 I would do it in a heartbeat.
If Valve left us on an update from 2014, I wouldn't give nearly as much of a toss as I do in this parallel universe. But the mere fact we were left on such a bogus, poorly-implemented set of TWO sh%tty updates is like salt in the wound of not getting any more updates period. Sandman was my favourite weapon back in the day, now I can't even use it without shooting myself in the foot anymore.
Same for the bonk. You're ALSO shooting yourself in the foot using it with the horrendous slowdown mechanic which allows the enemies you're SUPPOSED to get past (as in the design of the weapon) to immediately catch right up with you again and leave you a sitting duck, defeating the whole purpose of the weapon. I'd be less pissed if its downside was scaled minicrits with damage, because at-least then you can still take cover and run away once it wears off, but of-course Valve pick the least intuitive weapon downside possible.
I have a mod that makes the flame particles more transparent. It's basically necessary.
Also screwed up the rainblower particles as a result
What makes jungle inferno and meet your match so frustrating to me is not only is it the reason tf2 stopped getting updates because of how hard they flopped (moreso mym, but still) but its also what's responsible for that space update they teased never coming to fruition. I'm sure you remember this, but the writing was on the wall for there to be a space themed update because of the teasers they had on the blog, the little silvery cube props on powerhouse when it was added, and also just the direction the last comic was going in. It all set up to go in that direction but the comptard bullshit took valve's attention and made them put all that on the backburner just to eventually abandon it. It's tragic knowing there was going to be a REAL and PROPER tf2 update, but naah you get your half-assed pyro update which just made pyro even worse as a class.
thanks, valve. :/
For real. My hatred for comp grows more and more as I realise just how much bad influence they've had over this game over time. I've always disliked them, but I might be crossing into genuine hatred territory because of what they've done to this game. Gone are the wacky 2012 days where you had a huge variety of weapon options that were all fun to use and master. It's such a joke.
dont forget the experimental gamemodes, im pretty sure at least 1 or 2 were also space themed.Too bad they got removed, used to really like them aswell.
@@JeffarryLounderyou are so delusional
@@bonopo
Users with the default pfp don't get to have opinions sorry that's the rules. Learn how to JPEG you dumbass.
"cube props on powerhouse" what are those, how did i miss on this. tell me where on the map i can find them.
also 100% agree
Played tf2 since the free2play update, while agree that the nerfs and changes weren't good, the fact they got touched at all wasnt the problem. The problem was that the weapons got nerfed with no additions to supplement their power lost.
Sandman is a perfect example. The old sandman was terrible for anyone fighting it, theres no way around that. Being able to completely take away someones ability to play the game and then one shot them wasnt fun at all on the reciving end. I was never impressed by a sandman cleaver user unless it was a moonshot, it just made me annoyed to the point of becoming an engineer main and never having to deal with it. However removing the one thing that made it good then replacing it nothing was such a massive fuck up, im amazed the nerf got into the patch at all. This trends with every weapon you mentioned.
The base jumper is an entirely fair point however. The redaploy strat was only a problem in 6's because in a pub setting there is a million solutions to that issue. The strat in 6'e necessitated creating a hole in your defences by picking a sniper to lock him down, probably giving up something important like a demo or your own solider, or your engie moving his gear to lock that area down, making the far more important area he was already defending more vulnerable, if they had one at all. And even with the change made to fix that exact "problem" the community still has it band because a competent solider can still do that, just not as long lol. Absolute fail of a change.
The problem isnt comp players asking for changes, its the tf2 devs not doing the changes right then fucking off when they only did half the work.
(No clue why the fuck they even touched the eviction notice though, holy shit give me my brass knuckles back.)
im just going to keep this at 1.25x speed so I can pretend that the scout has become self aware and is fucking laying into tf2
holy shit why is it so accurate
I was thinking this the whole time. It's perfect.
I love this lmfao
I really like how you just talk without a filter. You just say it how it's on your mind, and it's exceptionally refreshing.
Amazing video
Share the video if you're based 🙏
I remember even though the old YER wasn't exactly a good option to have in terms of viability, it was really fun to experiment with it as a challenge item, so you had to really EARN your disguises rather than just being able to swap to different disguises which made it way more rewarding as a weapon concept.
Now the weapon just straight up feels painful to use with how quickly cloak drains. The only way it's semi-viable nowadays is if you pair it with the letranger. That's basically it, and even then it depletes quicker compared to normal stock anyway.
Again, just some fun weapon minding its business, not even OP in the slightest, and Valve curbstomps it for no good reason to take the fun out of the weapon, which is exactly what happened to the plethora of scout weapons nerfed in Jungle Inferno.
realizing how everybody in tf2 community that i respected ruined tf2 by implementing competitive game, im just upset...this is desapointing...... thank you for showing this perspective.
Redpilled
It's OK, I was once a naive teenager with stupid opinions too. You just grew up.
rip caber 2fort bombing 2015
4:50
Among the weapons nerfed, the Caber. It was so fun to like on 2fort, sticky jump into the opposing team battlements, caber a sniper, die, respawn and do it again. Stupid maybe but fun.
Hard agree on almost all points in this video.
I also want to add that even casual community is affected by constant comp players' whining and adopted it: asking for nerfs to weapons, classes or abilities that don't really need them at all.
Comp community, a fucking minority, corrupted even casual playerbase.
Utterly ridiculous.
Comp players back then were literally some of the most toxic, loudest, and hardest to please people on the planet. It's a shame that people don't drill that point enough, since it explains so much of why the game is in the state that it is in today. Even after Valve giving them almost everything they've asked for on a silver platter for two updates straight, they still had the gall to bitch and complain. No wonder Valve abandoned us.
Uncle Dane unironically believed that by 2023 new players would cite comp as the reason they started playing the game.
I used to like him but "What's wrong with the engineer?" and "Trickle Down Balance" are some of the worst TF2 videos on the platform.
I don't think Dane was anticipating Valve to just stop updating the game and leave competitive mode in an unfinished, broken, unplayable state. If they gave the game an additional 5 years worth of genuine improvements, we'd be in a better timeline.
@@SolarLight no retard, had they spent the last 7 years listening to the autists who dont know what half the weapons in this game do and the guy that said he plays engineer because he doesnt like fps games, the game would probably be even worse of
@@SolarLight dev support would make everyone happier, but comping the game up ain't the way to go
@@SolarLightThey should have removed competitive completely , brought back quickplay and focused on TF2 being a casual 12v12 game
@@SolarLightdawg comp players laugh at you for suggesting that demoknight could ever be viable, they dont like half the roster of the game, they always complain about heavy engineer and pyro but never about demoman or medic
Valve is bad af at balancing for both casual and comp. You don't do such balance changes once every year. You see that people complain about a weapon being too weak? Max 3-6 months and you change it again. And you do it for as long as players are happy.
Gabber and Zesty Zesus in real life be like : "you son of a bitch" *CLAP*
clap in what way 😟😨
The nerfs to Eviction Notice were completely unnecessary.
It was already Heavy's worst melee weapon, but because it gave him a speed boost it warranted nerfing, because god forbid Heavy gets to the frontlines a little bit faster
it is so fucking unusable i don't know what they were thinking
Balancing weapons based on feedback from a part of the community that just bans whatever weapons they don't like is a really stupid concept. You're really going to balance them to appease players who haven't even used or played against these weapons in years because they play on a modded comp version of the game?
"I can't believe they didn't want skill in the game anymore. Why did they nerf the Sandman?"
*30 minutes later*
"And get this, they made a flamethrower that you have to aim!"
He likes the weapon but the damage output wasn't enough for the skill reward that's what he said
He was pointing out the contradiction of making a weapon harder to use but with not only little reward but just detrimental to your load out. It's not fun, it's not good, it's just bad.
@@phdonny As it's already been pointed out, i like DF's design, it's just objectively worse than a normal flamethrower, while taking significantly more skill to use, should be the opposite.
@phdonny the DF is super fun to use. Also it has a higher range and higher potential dps than the typically flamethrower if you actually get good.
the dragon's fury has always been the better choice for actually killing enemies, unless you intend to combo with a shotgun/flare gun to kill enemies at medium range. otherwise the dragon's fury will always be the best choice for direct combat due to the potential killing time
Holy shit, the GOAT is back. Based Machina colat: 56:01.
Once again, you're right. I never liked the Jungle Inferno update but I think it was more about just bitterness over MyM still lingering and TF2 not feeling the same after it and yeah once I was done with the contracts and got my money back selling crates I just stopped playing TF2. I've probably put like 50 hours into it over the past 7 years as opposed to the 1000+ I put into it beforehand.
It's interesting, you mentioned that Uncle Dane's Trickle down balance was retarded and I was confused because I remember his reasoning being that the top players abuse it while the bottom players don't (although, I've never seen anyone use it in pubs so I assumed it was a comp thing) so it makes sense to balance for them. His example was the Base Jumper being able to be opened and closed as much as you want and showed a Soldier using it in the sky to dodge tons and tons of projectiles and then it made sense why it was balanced.....until you fucking showed that they just BLACKLISTED the fucking thing anyway! What's the fucking point if THEY won't even use the weapons that are balanced around them?
We're fucking never going to get the Heavy update at this rate and honestly even if we did I'm sure they'd fuck it up somehow.
Keep uploading man, you're the best TF2 RUclipsr out there.
I wish there was a community server that existed pre mym and pre JI updates so I can reexpierence prime tf2.
Tf2 classic
@@AltLmaoo I know its just it doesn't have all the weapons and the servers that do have too much. Maybe I am not just finding the right server.
@@AltLmaoo idk why my comment got deleted but I can't use the sandman nor other weapons pre-JI. Also, the admins are fucking pussies, got muted for saying "rxpe yellow team" as a joke, old tf2 fanbase wouldn't care. So tired of these snowflakes. If you don't like it, disable fucking chat, its that simple.
Know it's late but some of the modern E² spy mains are currently working on a set of pre gun metal servers.
@@SailenHarbor nice.
It's a shame this kickass tf2 vid won't his the tf2 mainstream because it's not a hugbox circlejerk smh
great vid dude
The sandman being called one of the most skill based weapons in the game is the funniest shit I've heard in a while.
Because it was
@@Izywik90 Yeahhhhhh, no
@@GleebieDeebie I’d like to hear your argument
@@Izywik90 It's less about the skill that went into using the sandman, and more about how it affected game balance, I think its a pretty straightforward and easy to understand concept that making a player unable to do anything for any amount of time is just unfun to play against and saying it getting nerfed was a bad idea is just inherently stupid, feel free to clap back with anything but I stand by my point, someone having to be skilled at aiming a projectile doesn't justify the sheer annoyance it brings to game balance
@@GleebieDeebie So not being able to do anything for getting hit by a projectile that you are able to dodge is overpowered and unfun?! you're the type of person that probably likes things to be easy for them instead of getting good at video games. Go play Overwatch where your BS competitive propaganda is welcomed. I'm guessing you played after Jungle Inferno and got your info from Uncle Dane.
I agree with everything with this video except on the dragon fury. If they want dragon fury to be more a skill based weapon, give the airblast penalty when you miss your air blast. Beside that, dragon fury is a fun weapon. You have farther reach than other pyros flamethrowers. Engies cannot use building as a cover. With consecutive hits, you can outdamage the base flamethrower.
The thing you have to understand about some of their "nerfs" is that the purpose of at least some of them is not actually to balance the item in question. Removing an item from the game would be a really bad PR move and set a terrible presedent for the game, so they instead remove it "The Valve way".
Also the reason why comp players hate the bonk is because it's like an Eureka Effect for the Scout (not defending the nerf). And in case you are thinking about that desision too hard yes, they would have seen that this nerf wouldn't even fix the problem that the competive players were talking about, and I am certain after seeing the gas passer that they do not playtest their game which is ironic considering they apperently are playtesting phanatics to the point where they were playtesting Portal 1 only into a week in development.
When you change something to make sure nobody is going to use it anymore, that's callen "Soft-banning" or "Soft-removal".
well, maybe competitive mode SHOULD have been a clusterfuck. What point is there in playing with only mostly stock loadouts and 4 classes?
@@chainsawplayin Highlander is basically that. The only weapons that are banned are the ones that screw over mobility classes for no reason (natasha, reserve shooter) annoying weapons (scorch shot, diamondback) and all of the throwable weapons. What those games turn into is the demo ordering the entire team as his pawns while the sniper shuts down the entire map. That format would probably be a lot more interesting if they made a special ruleset that banned sniper.
Also, there is a version of 6's that has no whitelist. The meta is 2 demos, 2 natasha heavies, and 2 vacc medics. The whitelist is there to add variety into the format by removing playstyles that either force the other team to copy what they are doing, or turn the other team into an unbreakable wall.
@@japester5927
Competitive TF2 and Competitive Melee are strikingly similar in how they have gimped the original game so hard for so long that it's essentially a different thing at that point. You also have the stale-ass enforced metas of the same 5 maps, characters, playstyles, etc going on for decades now. I remember one of the original TF2 devs around 2014 talking about how they got bored watching such matches since everything had already stagnated even back then.
On the topic of nerfing weapons or balancing weapons
From my experience, if a weapon lowers your hp at all times, it is practically ruined
The sandman takes away health, making it practically unusable because Scout desperately needs health to survive more than one hit, if it just had the stun removed the weapon would still be fine
The Vita Saw drains your health which is kinda ironic cuz the weapon practically encourages to to get yourself blown up
The demoknight swords atleast have items that counter the health drain
Maybe there’s more examples but you get the idea
Whilst this video may seem conteoversial i mostly agree with everything you said, it fucking baffles me that Valve just butchered a lot of fun options to "cater to the competitive scene that tf2 could've actually had guys! Yes guys tf2 couldve been a competitive shooter! Even though it was never designed with the intention of being one!! I swear guys believe me it could!!"
The truth is that tf2 was created as a fun casual game, and should've remained as such, to say tf2 is shit nowadays is a bit of an exageration but i can understand where the feeling comes from, they took away a lot of the fun and stabbed in the leg our beautiful shooter game
I have no idea why i love these videos discussing the old state of the game and weapons. Guess i just like reminiscing about the good time. rip The Sandman my beloved
There's the casual mfs and then there's the competitive mfs. I am neither. I'm an mvm mf. I love mvm.
Gambling addiction
the mister metokur of the tf2 community
He and Zesty are the only tf2bers i ever watch
@@bacreeton zesty doesn't come close to gabber, zesty doesn't speak out against the shills nor does he speak out against Valve
If Metokur wasn't funny or had anything interesting to say.
@@ivanthehighman177 He definitely does. He gets shit on by the exact same shills Gab talks about here for having the “wrong opinions” or not liking trannies or whatever. His content is just good anyway, regardless of all of that shit
@@ivanthehighman177Except he literally has? Like, multiple times?
i 100000% fucking agree with you pal. no extra add-ins for me. Before, TF2 was THE "most fun game you can have online", with weapons that are so fun, unique, and cool to use. But now TF2 is just like any ol' fps game, with weapons that are just any ol' fps weapons.
MyM and Jungle Inferno devs wanted to transform the game into the modern fps type, but It's fucking stupid because TF2 WILL NEVER FIT TO THE CURRENT FPS GENRE.
"Most fun you can have online". not "Skill-based", not "Competitive".
TF2 was meant to be a hangout. It was meant to be a chatroom while you have fun killing people. If you want to make it comp, there's already websites for that. You DONT NEED TO MAKE THE BASE TF2 COMP.
It really, REALLY saddens me the state TF2 is in rn. The atmosphere of TF2, and its fans have changed. People nowadays just don't know what TF2 is anymore.
You're saying what we've been thinking for years. Thank you for speaking out against this. Listening to the competitive scene was the worst mistake Valve ever did for the game.
"FUCK UNCLE DANE" This is a RUclipsr that derserves subscribers: This is like TF2 meets Jerry Springer!!! Keep this shit up!!!
Ive tried to get back into tf2 after jungle inferno numerous times and i just couldn't be bothered to and i never really knew why before i saw this video.
1:00:48 Man i miss this type of spice. Papa Franku will never be forgotten.
Did Bill Burr just make a tf2 video
These clowns actually managed to make a JET PACK not fun. Think about how messed up that is for a second.
Valve made the jetpack in line with the average fresh-install Pyro mindset, by making it as unskilled and easy as possible. Just point and click where you want to go! No advanced movement techniques to learn and master or anything fun like that because it would require Pyro mains unlock 100% of their brainpower to use.
1:00:00 Perfectly summarizes everything I think as well, + the 1:00:48 got me rolling 💀
The YER was so great before its "buff." It was meant to be a real surprise for the enemy. It's used the least because it was the highest risk yet highest reward knife. I was good enough to go on 20+ killstreaks with the damn thing because no one uses it, so it's extremely surprising to the enemy when you do use it. To blend into the fray and wipe whole clusters of enemies with a silent killer that was seldom used made it so powerful. Its rarity is what gave it its true power. Nowadays if you use it just like it was pre Jungle Inferno, you are at a disadvantage due to the stupid cloak penalty. You are punished by being so good as a spy who doesn't need an initial disguise. What world does that make sense? None. I'm sorry that the little babies who just got TF2 and somehow got the YER as their first drop isn't useable to you right off the bat, maybe you should learn how the game works fully before you use such a radical departure from spy.
I never even had the impression that anyone thought it was "underpowered". It was always good. And if they wanted to buff it, they could have made it an actual silent kill by removing the stab sound. Instead, my second favorite knife turned into the worst item for the entire class as a purported buff.
@@GODber777 It should have either been left alone or given something to incentive players to use it but still keep it unique, like a 20 percent cloak duration. But nah, that sounds like it makes too much sense. "Buff" it into the damn dirt.
"This guy was really pissed when he died, shit, he's even pissed now! His bones have crystalized into pure rage!"
I'm w/ you %100 now, guy knows sum gud shit right here
STAR_ and Dane are like opposite sides of the same "please give an update" coin. I remember before he took his break, his complaints were more, "oh hey, this weapon is fucked and you'd know if you played a single round. It makes the game _unfun_ . Does anyone developing this game actually give a shit?" I think his hopeful attitude about matchmaking was more hoping it would make the devs not sit on their ass for years to fix a bug that made it cancer to play the game(3 years to fix mini sentries being nearly invincible while building). I'm still grieving the Air Strike being nerfed. It was so fun and stupid 😂
DANE COOK, YOU'RE DONE.
UNCLE DANE KILLED TF2
is that u jesu...?
@@Xv0dka1999X yes
I was wondering if you were going to make a follow up video on this. Great video
you definitely said what i been thinking for years
i love uncle dane and funke but during around 2016-2017 they were really pushing that tf2 should be a competitive sport and weapon balance should be based around that. why they were pushing this is obvious, its because overwatch was HUGE at that time and it was a game that was focusing more on competitive play and based everything on the game around that, but now when you think about that you just have to try not to laugh at how poorly that aged because overwatch is doing a lot worse than it did before and esports is dying (not even really dying, it's just dead at this point lol).
i always thought this wasn't the way to go about balance because of things that you mention, comp players are a minority and they handle balance themselves with bans. speaking of which it's crazy to see the base jumper which was neutered still banned LOL, it really goes to show that it's pointless catering to them. like, comp literally plays only like 5cp how are you going to balance all of your weapons based on like 1 mode.
this is probably why overwatch is a lot less popular than it was because they REALLY focused on comp and it just ended up making metas like goats that no one liked. the last 2 big updates of tf2 were chasing a pipedream that not even the game they were trying to follow reached and it's sad to see.
I'm really glad you're putting work into making videos, please keep it up & tell everyone what they need to hear :)
I got complacent waiting for the heavy update or fucking anything to undo all the god-awful balance post 2016 and just assumed "oh they're working on it"; only for that day to never come. you know, if heavy did win I think his class update would've been mishandled by the post MYM dev team, so in a twist of irony pyro winning left a worse mark on his reputation. not that I wish for any class to be neglected or scorned, I wish things were different
atleast comic #7 is still on the way... for 7 years...
I refer Jungle Inferno as the Nerf Update lol.
Oh shit, hes more mad with this update than MyM. Time to enjoy this masterpiece!
that outro bit had me cackling lmao
My biggest loss was old panic attack, i loved walking around with it as my main weapon, and using the primary as a secondary weapon
I don't like how the new one is just the shotgun but better.
why the FUCK didn't I discover you sooner lmao
It's unfortunate that people are going to fixate on the inflammatory remarks towards the beginning of the video and not actually watch through. This guy makes some good points.
Exactly
Well here's how i see it:
How often do you see the "good points" (thanks) you saw here made on YT?
Not very often. Why? Well because everyone's buddy buddy with each other and no one wants to say anything out of line and it's essentially a circlejerk.
I would say that the "inflammatory remarks" are perfectly warranted. No. I have no respect for competitive tf2 or the people affiliated with pushing it. And why should i? They fucked up my favorite game. I could pretend to be respectful, and i could pretend that i don't consider them motherless fucks, or i could be honest. I chose to be honest.
Rewatching this video, I can't get the image of Robin Walker as the Enclave officer bullying uncle dane out of my head. Love you, man.
How can he be so based?
Because the game was a part of him.
I think TF2's balancing in its most recent major updates (assuming it even gets them again by some miracle), is a good case is why you can't just take feedback and aspects from a game's competitive scene in a game where the casual and comp rulesets are drastically different from each other. Smash is a great example of this, in competitive Ultimate, Ganondorf is widely considered to be the worst in the game, but in casual settings (primarily Free for Alls) he is extremely strong since his weaknesses that hold him back in competitive don't really matter in those environments. Same principle applies to TF2, weapons that aren't an issue in Casual are busted in Competitive and vice verse because they are effectively different games with how they are set up. You can even this happen in Competitive TF2 itself with 6v6 and Highlander due to differences in class limits and player count. And besides that even, balancing for competitive TF2 shouldn't have even have been an issue for Valve because they will just ban the weapons that don't fit their environments much like how Smash players ban stages based on their environments and you don't see people begging Nintendo to change those stages to fit their liking in their game, so I don't know why people pushed this mentality for TF2.
the only good balance change i can think of in this update was reverting the claid and re-adding the 0.5 seconds extra charge because valve nerfed the claid for no reason. do you remember what valve replaced the charge duration with in tough break? +25 health on kill. wow thanks valve i sure needed 25 extra health playing a fucking melee subclass
I MISS WHAT THIS GAME WAS BEFORE GUN METTLE. AND I'M FUCKING PISSED >:(
The reason that the nerfed items are still banned in competitive is simple: competitive players refuse to change their meta.
Example: the base jumper is banned not because it's overpowered, but because the typical comp team of 2 Scouts, 1 Demo, 1 Medic & 2 Soldiers would make a guy hovering in the air hard to hit for 4/6 players. And no, they don't want to switch to Sniper, Engineer or Heavy, the Direct Hit is also an unpopular item in comp.
Comp sixes will always be a stale meta on a unpopular gamemode (5CP) and that's fine, the issue is when the entire game changes to cater to such a niche playstyle.
I have to say one thing clearly: balancing tf2 around competitive is like attempting to squeeze a lemon and expectiing orange juice, but the "nerf" of the crit-a-cola and sandman cleaver combo (that one actually hurts to say) were warranted for one thing: They were great to play with, but terrible to play against.
A good scout who knows how to use the sandman cleaver was absolute dogwater to fight on very open maps with large skyboxes, because the scout could just throw a hail mary and kill you without you even being able to react (Because stunning and slowdown fucking reek in a fast paced game like tf2). How they nerfed the sandman was an absolute disgrace and I give you that one wholeheartedly, but it did need a nerf just so the guy receiving the assblasting doesnt want to throw out his computer because he got killed four towns over by the class specializing in cqc.
The crit a cola gave the scout too much range for free for 1v1 encounters (something that is in the core philosophy from tf2) and giving (most arguably) one of the best primary in the game a free buff banner charge was a bit too much (and every day a scunt cries is a day where an angel gets his wings)
a breath of fresh air.
>that's not overpowered that's fuckin' awesome!
Amen.
57:57 Basically. I didn't like a lot of the shit Valve did post-2015, even the stuff we got in 2015 was kinda weird and meh, but once we reached 2017 we had all that shit. For a good year we had no fucking autobalance, which made almost every single pub turn into a 12v6 within a round or two, we got the stupid-ass catbots and then that crappy update. I came back in 2019/20 for community MvM, but barely touched normal MP. Now, again, I haven't really played for the past 2 years. Only on and off for maybe a few days tops here and there.
youre right aobut everything here except the dragons fury. the weapon is fun it absolutely CHEWS through people its great. the extra range is probably the best part about it
7:37 And that is really trash idea even back then, i am believer in the hierarchy balancing system. where you do actually have something objectively stronger, like how the soldier in tf2 is really good because of his mobility and ability to hit multiple classes that being said, everything should have limitation but not too much.
this why UD balancing philosophy is bad. if everything is on the same level. then nothing is. this is the definition of stagnation and what is recurring theme with competitive games in the past years ? *STAGNATION*
I agree, I miss the old ambassador, like I use to crouch as a spy on the 2fort sniper sight lines and pretended to be a sniper headshotting people. I also miss the old panic attack
I don't agree with any of the wepon nerfs, and I see no reason why a valve competitive mode couldn't be implemented without adding this bastardized casual mode instead of just keeping quickplay the way that it was or with a few tweaks that would have kept even non valve servers populated. I can't put all the blame on the competitive community for the failure of the official valve competitive mode. It was obvious from the beginning that it wasn't going to replace third-party pug sites, but the least valve could have done was actually listen to what the community wanted in the first place. They didn't implement class restrictions or item restrictions because they wanted to do things their own way. There were other options and suggestions, like having a vote ban system like in most MOBAs before the start of the match, where you can ban at least one wepon or one class so that high mmr matches don't turn into two vaccinator medics and two heavy/demos every time. Having the ability to pick the gamemode or map you want to play would also be nice, not to mention that votekick has been disabled, so even if you run into a solo cheater, you don't have the ability to kick them.
ya, i wish it went down defrently, at lest the game is still living even if some people dont like it, but what do I know i havent played through a tf2 update before.
I wonder how the golden age of tf2 was like
This made me think of the Simpsons episode in which homer bankrupt his half brother.
How could walve do this
i started playing in 2020 during lockdown, and i can tell you even when i began, i realized most weapons are shit. when playing rolled back servers, the fun and experimentation increased by an astronomic unit; would love to see these better iterations on casual.
jungle inferno has its ups but holy shit the downs...
The maps and taunts are the only ups but everything else can burn
the most insulting nerfs for you were the sandman and ambassador in jungle inferno
but the unnecessary nerfs started even before meet your match, gun mettle killed the ullapool caber in 2015 and is the single reason i fucking hate that update.
Remember when funke said i hope they dont try to turn the pyro into the scout and they made this abomination of an update
You are right gabber I am supporting you
War on fun is a good title for it. GRU and Eviction notice, weapons that hardly needed a nerf, got put 6 feet under a concrete vault after Jungle Inferno. No more being a dumbass heavy minicritting people for speedboosts with your brass knuckles, because you've lost all your health by the time you reach melee range without being shot yet.
8:59 your so right, in a recent video he contiuned to defend jungle inferno, this is not a coincidence, he was a reason the changes happened in this update.
If they really wanted to "fix" the Sandman, an easy way to do it is just to make the stun only apply to headshots, and have the slow applied elsewhere. It doesn't need this "fix" but it is definitely a better alternative than neutering the weapon fully.
I can see what you’re saying but the thing is that aiming at heads with the sandman and hitting it is almost impossible so it’d be kinda pointless.
I would be fine with comp tf2 if comp players didn't ruin the most fun weapons
I agree with every gd word. Good video.
I never made 2+2 and thought about the fact that now they wanted to caretake to comp so bad to follow their ideas to balance weapons.
To this day I've seen very few dragon fury's pyos, it must mean something XD
Counter strike’s success got to valves head when it came to meat your match and jungle inferno updates
19:29 Who tf actually thinks that it was comp players that got the Ambassador nerfed. You know that you can run sniper full time in any competitive mode which is basically a 10x better amby spy right?
And your point is…..? Also the only people that I heard complaining about the Amby were comp losers
@@Izywik90 You just know thats not true lol (refer back to my statement about spy being horrible in 6s, rather than running spy full time with Amby you can just run sniper which has a scope and at minimum does 48 dmg more). I do however remember some pubbers pre 2017 complaining about across the map headshots.
@@ruzgar1372 Here’s how I see it. Pre-nerf, Not really, Spy has more mobility than Sniper so if you were a good and skilled Amby user it would come in handy to headshot people, Spy and Sniper were both equally good in certain situations (yes even in 6v6). Post-nerf, unfortunately yes you’re correct. Anyway nobody likes 6v6 anymore, you’ll likely be waiting 2 hours for a lobby to be full.
Sigafoo had been wanting an amby nerf for years. And he visited valve offices suspiciously close before the nerf. He's one of those dummies that think spy should never be played full-time.
Why the fuck didnt they just make the GRU have the marked for death still active for like 3-5 seconds after you put them away, that would have made them perfect without changing them that much
Absolutely incorrect, the current version is perfect.
we need more tf2 oncologists
19:40 comp players didn't want the ambi to get nerfed that was all valve
The sandman+guillotine was my jam, I had so much fun trying to get the 1-2 combo with those weapons. 😮💨
mad milk is strong asf in 6s
Thank god Dane realized how delusional his thoughts on tf2 balancing has taken a 180 for the better
I don't think he has. I still remember when the sandman got nerfed and he was STILL calling for it to be nerfed again because "slows are unfun hurr durr I'm uncle dane so I know what I'm talking about."
Dane definityvly did not change.
There are many exampes of that.
I still remember his hotakes video and that part about cosmetics. Lukly peple caled him out.
Also his servers are basikly just casual.
I watched his 2016-2018 content and it was full of wery bad takes.
Spesialy when you realize that he was prazing casual from the day one even tho it is stil broken to this day.
Also he started the whole random crits debate.
Witch is kompleatly usles becose Qvikplay had that as a option.
I just don't like him.
The war on fun started when everyone bought into the competitive hype. what worse. even after the competitive gaming start to die out. the really terrible balancing mentality stayed. then you got people with the gut to say "games are no longer fun" no s%$#
Funnily enough, reversing Jungle Inferno would actually FixTF2 in both the fun of the game AND the bot crisis. At this point I don’t care enough, it’s long gone and Valve clearly has stopped caring as well. It’s a disgrace but man, I do miss that old tf2. Siberian snowfall timeline please!