I forgot how much the old amby shat on snipers until right now. These days if a sniper is on a high ground like the roof on Harvest then a spy has to spend a good 10 seconds walking all the way around and up the building to go for a stab. With the old amby, you could just headshot the sniper from below, punishing him for standing still too long and using poor cover. Even if the spy couldn't follow up on the headshot and get the kill, it still forced the sniper to fuck off and go grab an hp pack
They also nerfed the caber, brass beast and natascha because of crying sniper players. Its not talked about a lot but they were a protected class citizen when valve actually payched the game.
@@proactiveomnipresentvessel6569 it used to give the 20% resistances buff at full health too, this meant that snipers couldn't kill overhealed heavies with a fully charged headshot, therefore it "had" to get nerfed.
This thing was only nerfed because "gamedesign experts" like Uncle Dane didnt like the concept of stunning someone and thought it had no place in a "competitive game" like TF2.
You don't understand, tf2 should be 10 engineers who are convinced they are the smartest person in the room standing in corners with pybros sucking all fun and joy out of the universe.
Don't forget Soundsmith. He was another person who started a massive hate campaign against it leading to his army of 9 year old noobs to spam Valve saying to remove it. But yeah the competitive community fueled the flames with their incessant whining.
@@peepance1799 Pybros are up there with my top-10 most hated things in TF2 lmao. You can be a spy, trickstab an engineer off his sentry, quickly sap all his buildings which would have been one of the sickest things you've done all day... only for some room-temp IQ "Pybro" to show up, wave his mouse all over you until you die, and then remove all your sappers with one swing each, making the entire process useless.
Ironically, whenever I checked the discussions about the old Sandman, people seem to be more afraid about what they THINK a good Scout could do Vs what a good scout would ACTUALLY do, which 90% of the times was throw it in the bin because, while having a high potential, it is also unreliable due to the stun time/distance to the target and a massive heindrance due to the health penalty, at least that was the case before the Guillottine was introduced, because after all, the Sandman only started getting "annoying" to people because of the combo oneshots, before that I personally barely ever seen anybody using it, figures that sometimes I even had more experienced Scout teammates telling me NOT to use it because of the health penalty.
I strongly agree with everything this gentleman said in this video. Playing since 2011, NEVER had any problems with either Sandman or Ambassador and I main f medic, the class everyone wants to kill asap. Terrible nerfs NOBODY needed.
I can't believe it but fishonastick supports the sandman nerf, stated in his newest video, finding the sandman flying gelatine combo broken. Now I am wondering when he played tf2.
I'm an absolute launch-day boomer and this is nothing new. So much of this game has been flushed down the toilet for a competitive scene that never actually had a reason to be upset because it would just be banned or removed server-side. A lot of stuff did release busted and did deserve a change down the road but Valve spent way too much time hollowing out their core philosophies for a vocal minority that would never be happy and still isn't satisfied to this day. But hey, at least they got their matchmaking.
Played since 2008 and feel your exact same sentiment mate. Newer-gen players from 2014 onwards have no clue how old TF2 used to feel. The community behind it where having a conversation about life and funny in-game banter between players was extremely common per match, and the relaxing casual gameplay that the majority of people never took seriously were what made TF2 so unique. As with all the uniquely-designed mechanics that quite-literally only existed in TF2 and no other game. Then with the growing loud and annoying competitive community, and later on with pressure from Overwatch's existence, Valve decided bridging the competitive scene with casual was the best idea, effectively killing all kinds of fun weapons and playstyles in the process. Despite the fact a lot of said playstyles required significant skill to pull off anyway, and only raised the skill ceiling of every class.
In modern FPS games who have sold their souls to the scourge known as "Esports" you aren't allowed to have interesting or dynamic weapons that do not strictly adhere to the "Meta Slave" mentality. The reason is that the 1% of "competitive" players, which are usually youtubers or streamers, will complain because their childlike and picky brain chemistry cannot comprehend anything else besides their own selfish vision of the game. This means no mechanics THEY find annoying, no maps THEY find too weird or "gimmicky", no fun THEY find unfair. The 99% of the people who like said things, suck it up like adults, or don't care either way are then forced to see their favorite game get neutered by the Devs because for some reason they bow down to these small percentage of shallow cretins along with their equally mindless fans who've been duped into believing whatever they say about "balance". Such decisions usually leads to a hemorrhaging of the playerbase and the "competitive" players are left to wonder "what happened" as they remain oblivious to their own role in the game's said downfall.
I remember why that combo was the only reason id play scout, way back. I feel like they couldve kept the combo but make it so it doesnt hard stun people. Used to be my favourite thing to do in the game.
"nooooooo ur not meant to stop muh uber with the sandman, aahhhh help me valve!!!!!!! the scunts are ruining my pubstomp!!!!!" - Some comp player, I guess.
I come from the land of fighting games, a distant place where we simulate two men beating each other up for all eternity. When something is high execution, high power, that's generally considered balanced. For example, there's a character in the third Street Fighter game (Makoto) who can do the majority if not all of some character's health in a single combo with the right resources. She's not even the best character in that game. That's just one example, and not all games are like that, but seriously, I don't see why a weapon that doesn't even seem that busted is considered "too strong" in theory to be allowed when in practice it isn't that bad. Remember kids, skill and power should directly correlate in balance. The more skill something takes, the more powerful it should be.
I empathize a lot with your frustration man. The "modern day tf2 devs" for a long time have been completely lobotomized and have had no idea what they were doing. I remember being a kid watching Blu's long range scout video and thought it was the most dope shit. I never bothered learning it cause i had passions else where but i definitely saw it as a impressive respectable weapon to use, annoying if anything but if you got hit with the sandman 9 times outta 10 it was your own fault. Its just like the ambassador, a weapon that felt victim to the modern day mindset of "if its hard to use and it kills me its broken". And the worst part is the change is so fucking hypocritical, I wish the logic they used to nerf the sandman was used on the Jungle Inferno airblast change. Speaking of pyro. I remember there used to be ways to avoid a pyros air blast or escape from being pushed off a cliff. Now its a guaranteed grounded push that you can do NOTHING about, the damn hitbox can even hit behind the pyro still. I remember when all hell broke lose in pubs when jungle inferno released or hell when the phlog used to give uber AND healed you. It just feels so weird seeing low skill and brain dead gameplay be actively encouraged. I much prefer dying to a combo pyro who flared me and crit me with the axtinguisher opposed to someone holding down M1 and killing me in 2 seconds with zero engagement or effort on their end. The vision for the game and the players ever since meet your match has been a slow decline into disappointment. Hats off to you for making another one of these types of videos it really SHOULD put into perspective how much this game has rotted over the years but people still want to live in this delusion that the game is still alive because of "the player count".
While the combo was a bit annoying to deal with back in the day for me (Especially since I was pretty bad with movement and mostly mained Heavy), it spiced up Scout's gameplay and I miss it sometimes, even if I didn't use it personally. Engaging a Sandman Guillotine Scout was a different experience than fighting a regular Scout, and now it's gone thanks to some no-fun fucks that take the game way too seriously and Valve who listened to them.
I played on kogastopia that added pre jungle inferno stats and I was surprised how balance it was. I expected myself to get a lot of free kills from the combo, but I was kept in line with the CDs and having to accurately swing the ball.
Anyone who actually ever played with the old sandman knows it wasn't OP in any capacity. It's the exact same thing with Sniper: everyone who doesn't play him calls him "overpowered" because they don't see the effort that goes into each kill they make. I've had rounds where I've had to completely swap off of Sniper because I'm being killed multiple times over by the same few people that keep flanking or flying in and deleting me. Same exact thing with old sandman.
@@JeffarryLounder Sniper might not be overpowered but when you nerf nearly every weapon/combo that happened to be effective at dealing with him, what do you think the result will be? *Cue people suddenly complaining about sniper having way more presence than previously after sandman, ullapool caber and ambassador were nerfed to the ground (along with brass beast for some reason lol)
i reckon the buffoon that did the meet your match update loaded all these guns in a singleplayer server where the enemies stand still and thought to himself ''wow golly gees, the weapon stuns you if you stand still and does damage? its clearly broken here its gotta go'' I could say the same for the rest of the weapons that got nerfed with MYM but I digress
I started playing in 2021. Every time someone would show a clip of 2011 sandman I would think “that looks cool; too bad it was overpowered”. After watching this, I wish they never needed it cause Scout as a class feels starving for alt. Playstyles
I really miss lining a target, letting the ball fly, and then bonking the crap out of an invisible spy between you and your target that you didn't know what there.
Watching you play makes me want to play...haven't played since October. Sandman was not a problem, I feel the nerf was Valve listening to the cry baby comp players that felt casual was their place to prove who was "better"...god forbid you get stunned like once or twice in a match cuz fun is just not allowed in a comp player's mind unless its a pro air shot...... Jungle Inferno was just Valve's attempt at shutting up the comp players (being the loud minority of tf2) after completely failing at giving them the comp update they wanted (Meet your Match)....the same people that want random crits removed and sniper nerfed..."forget the actual FUN element of tf2 and lets just make it into light comp so these comp players can finally shut up..." is my guess on what Valve was thinking. The main Fault lies with Valve..they had no idea what to do with tf2 and just thought making it more competitive will draw in more players from games like Overwatch and what not, a better solution would have been for them to be more involved in the comp scene while keeping tf2 the way it is, that way comp would just fall in its natural place as a separate thing for serious players but no they were so dumb honestly and thought they could transform the game into something it isn't...just fucking stupid if you ask me. That's what happens when you make millions off of crates and loot boxes that you can't be fucked with actually listening to the player base... Valve just doesn't care anymore, they just cant be bothered when they have so much money... it's a sad realization but it seems that they have gone the corporate route and could care less about what players want.
I remember logging in after that update, wanting to goof around with the SM + Guillotine and feeling the utter disappointment that they drained the fun out of the weapon.
I used to use the Sandman before Jungle Inferno nerfed it. It was not overpowered, but it was fun as hell. It made me love playing Scout and felt like I was skilled as him for landing shots. Then it gets nerfed in Jungle Inferno, so I guess no more fun allowed with the Sandman.
It was the funnest Scout weapon by far. Just the feeling of hitting the ball on its own was awesome. The BONK! icon above their head, the bonk noise it made when you hit them, and Scout's voicelines when they got stunned; it all came together to craft an incredibly-satisfying weapon to use. But apparently it was "overpowered" because momentarily disarming your enemy as a weak class was just "unacceptable."
Devs ripping the fun out of a game because of comp. player bitching seems to be a trend. If I recall didn't the same thing happen in Runescape or WoW? Regardless good video, a shame to see how much Valve butchered the game. And thanks for the timestamps in the description.
I never liked the sandman due to being the heavy main, but the nerf was absoulute bullshit. Even when I got sandman'd I could usually avoid the guillotine anyways by moving like a psycho.
Gabb, you havent heard but Uncle Dane was suggesting sandman even further nerf after Jungle inferno. In his "gunslinger" (very fun unlock thats "fun" to play against) podcast he suggested further nerf to give minicrits on striked target so actually it could have been even worse can you imagine lol. In the same podcast they were discussing amby change podcast with the timestamp ruclips.net/video/bHNaNpbn2i8/видео.htmlm23s
I think this is probably one of your only Ls, making a weapon with stun mechanics in a shooter is not only cringe but super unfun, not only on top of that there's a weapon that instakills whoever is stunned. I don't care how anti-competitive play you are, who ever designed the OG sandman and added a combo that broken is severely deranged. It takes NO skill to pull off and theres little to nothing you can do on the receiving end. Sorry if that's what you need in the game to get frags tho if thats the case.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're: A) underage B) Started playing post Jungle Inferno Neither of those points are meant to denigrate you, but if they're true they give an excuse for your ignorance, and yes - it is absolutely ignorance. In the years in which the Sandman was actually good, there were very little complaints about it's supposed "cringe, unfuniness", it was considered, quite universally to be a very fun to use weapon with quite a high skill floor/ceiling (hard to use, harder to master). Only in the years after JI have i started to hear these opinions, which come mainly from people who have never actually used or had the weapon used against them. People really like to have a definitive opinion about a weapon that they don't have any experience or actual understanding of. I've already mentioned this in the video, if you really want to learn and stop parroting nonsense, go watch old STAR_ / Jerma985 / etc 2013 live commentaries where the old sandman combo is displayed. Out of everything false that you said about the sandman it "taking no skill" is the most ridiculous part.
The market gardener comparison is perfect. A weapon that rewards skilled gameplay, that lets you one shot 7/9 classes with the only counterplay being better movement (or airblast i guess). For some reason its ok on soldier but not scout.
You know what's add one layer of irony in this situation? The competitive players have BANNED the market gardener because "oneshotting a medic flying across the map is too op and there is nothing medic can do, boohooo". Say what you want, but the market gardener is single most fair melee crit in the entire game and you deserve that crit for your skill.
@@ivanych6231 that's actually so stupid it's funny. Like yeah of course there's nothing medic can do, you can say that about any fight between a medic and any class. Medic is not really supposed to defend himself like that, that's his team's job.
@@wtgkanp2431for your info, theres trolldier counter play, is called PAY ATTENTION AND DODGE, bah, being serious you have be alert everytime as a Medic, because Spy exist, Sniper is a thing and Scouts and Pyros are powerfull flankers, a trolldier is the last thing that affect a Med, because... you know if you run towards him their brain bug, because in 99% of cases, people just run away and get market gardened, and at all, he needs to be in air to work, soundsmith made 3 videos about manners to say "Nuh uh" for trolldier (How to counter) sorry for the text wall, but básically, it's possible to survive a trolldier
@@ivanych6231There's a global whitelist for competitive TF2 weapons bans which I just had to check upon reading this and lo and behold, the only banned Soldier melee as of current is the Disciplinary Action. They actually seem to endorse the Market Gardener because going deep and basically guaranteed sacrificing yourself to hit a chance melee swing on the Medic is high octane baller activity. I get disliking comp and its community after VALVe so lazily and haphazardly ruined their game trying to cater to them but come on. They are not monsters living under the bed who hate absolutely everything cool on principle EDIT: I just checked the whitelists for each individual league, and all of them have the Market Gardener whitelisted except for ETF2L. This does not appear to be a fault of competitive so much as them being European. They banned the Gas Passer LOL
Look at all these le epic casual gamers telling us we're having fun wrong by acknowledging that movement imparing effects fucking suck ass in first person movement shooters.
Fun for the person using it............not so much for the person on the receiving end of it. And if you somehow tell me to get good, I'll ask how do you get good against a stun mechanic? 3:05 Ignoring every other melee cause it just wasn't up to the Sandman's standards even though all of them are pretty good......except the sun on the stick. 5:20 After the nerf they should've changed it to something less punishing I will admit, though what would you give it as a new downside? I always had the idea of turning the moonshot mechanic into a KGB version, with a moonshot you get 5 seconds of crits but still have the -15 max health. If pair with a reliable secondary you can have either the old guillotine back OR crit pistol shots. Overpowered? Maybe? 12:32 it was broken in the fact that you couldn't attack at all or move which is kinda dumb.
>how do you get good against a stun mechanic The same way you get good at avoiding huntsman arrows: by not getting hit in the first place. And if you do get hit at a range closer than moonshot range, you can still move and retreat back to your team.
@@energeticyellow1637 Doesn't make the stun itself any less unfun. There are other, better things for the ball to do that give the target more options for counterplay. Knockback isn't comparable to the stun, BTW. Getting hit by a rocket, though it knocks you back, lets you do stuff like damage surf. That's non-existant for the sandman stun.
@@energeticyellow1637 And the slowdown effect that you get alongside the stun makes that harder, too. Also, it prevents movement options like blast jumping. Also, there's the fact that you have to do so to avoid dying, and the fact that it removes the ability to retaliate. It's like fighting with handcuffs on your hands and ankles. Even if you still have some agency, it's reduced so much that it's effectively worthless for changing the outcome.
Odds are really good the change was made in response to competitive players. The highest levels of play (6v6 or Highlander folks mainly) completely fucked several weapons because they didn't fit a very specific meta that focused on maybe a couple classes and a few weapons. Sniper insta-gibbing some poor bastard with hitscan is fine but GOD FORBID a Scout stop someone in place for a handful of seconds.
@@GODber777 now i see the reply. Man, the first soda popper gave you crits or mini-crits, can’t remember which, for running! How could it be better than that?
maybe the sandman should just do 25 dmg on hit and mark the target for a mini crit upon the next instance of damage withing 4 seconds, this would allow for the sandman+cleaver skill combo to be still a thing but also not annoying to face since you know the scout needed skill to pull it off
The only remotely decent melee options scout has is like...fan'o'war in mvm and the boston basher if you have a friend playing medic (it's pretty much an ubercharge machine). And then the atomizer, like you said. Wrap assassin is hilariously stronger than the sandman now. Personally, from my own standpoint, I hated getting stunned even more than I hated dying. Now, does that mean that I think the weapon needed to be nerfed? I dunno tbh. But the way went about 'balancing' this weapon shows either they just didn't want to see this weapon anymore or they fundamentally don't understand what they are doing when they change a weapon. A literal amateur could balance this game better than the team in charge of jungle inferno. Admittedly, I need to finish watching the video, so maybe I'll see your point when I finish. I'll get back to you.
Alright. So I finished watching the video. Honestly, I think I'm swaying towards the camp of 'it never needed a nerf'. Still hate getting stunned tho lol.
@@ebookie_meowda Well people applied the same logic of "it annoys me so let it burn hell" with the ambassador, in fact - you can apply it for everything in the game. Everyone has their own specific idea of what the most annoying thing is. I don't think that's reasonable grounds for nerfing items. If the annoying thing has counters and is avoidable, and isn't braindead to use, it shouldn't be nerfed. As a general rule i would agree that stuns are stupid. But the sandman wasn't some complete bullshit birdbrained tier stun (like say Mcree's flashbang from overwatch) you can dodge it, you can reflect it, it's useless at short range and the scout using it has to know how to actually play the game to get anything out of it to justify losing 15 health.
@@GODber777 Not to mention, if we apply the logic "is annoying so it must be removed" then about 90% of the game mechanics and items should be removed because someone somewhere finds them annoying, and that makes it also a slippery slope trap philosophy since, as we have seen, all it takes is some random tryhard, or newbie, or both, complaining at some item for some dumb reason to get it ruined for everybody, which is also what allegedly happened before Jungle Inferno to the Righteous Bison: somebody taking the game a bit too seriously complained in the forums about it penetrating targets and igniting arrows among other things, and BOOM ! Nerfed into useless !
its funny cuz normally id say this kind of thing happens when a game dev team wants to push the meta into "competitive" but valve dont even endorse TF2 xD so I have no clue why they did this, without a doubt one of my fav combos RIP (also side note good vid to watch about the peak is BLU)
In my eyes the idea was that these weapons provided specific capabilities that you shouldn't have, rather than being too strong.The ambassador nerf prevents spies from being an untouchable pest by sniping you from behind, and cloaking whenever anything gets too close. The sandman screws over heavy more than anyone else, since you're a big, slow target, typically on the front-line, and at the end you'd have to rev up your minigun again assuming you aren't already out of position by then. Not trying to justify the current state of being near useless. Just saying. I'd probably favor something like knockback that scales with distance or something...
Was the sandman nerf justified? No(ish) Whilst it was hard to hit those balls, getting stunned in tf2 sucks, that's just factual. Was it overkill? HOLY SHIT YES IT WAS, THE SANDMAN MIGHT JUST BE THE SINGLE WORST WEAPON IN TF2 BY NOW GOD DAMMIT I would gladly take the old Sandman Guillotine combo which was a bit annoying, but very fun over the current state of the weapon It's better to have a mildly annoying weapon than a fucking unusable detrimental weapon that you are just better off not using, ever.
@@WHOARETHEPATRIOTS475 Assuming you even saw the scout before they hit you. It also happens that the sandman ball is the fastest projectile in the game. I think you just have a really high-sodium diet.
I don't know why people call The Sandman's stunning mechanic a 'crowd control', when the the so called crowd is one guy getting stunned. Would calling it a single-target stun not roll off the tongue more?
I mean its really cool that you can stun lock random player from across the map as scout. But why? In a game as wacky as tf2, where randoms crits are great addition to the game (no irony) its okay. But personally I have flashbacks about cc abilities in OW and i think its a good change overall, what not so good is that weapons are nerfed to the ground. So here are my changes! Sandman: moonshot have knockback, with a power of 3 double bonks and sound effect. Let whole server know that you land that shot. Also I suggest that this knockback would be opposite of ball direction (So enemy is yeeted into you) Flying Guillotine: same as it is but mini crits on rocket jumped enemies (and sandman blasted as well)
Where did this idea of "Stun mechanics do not belong to such fast-paced movement shooter like TF2" even come from?? Like... *what* and *WHY NOT* ? Stun has always been in TF2 since release; Soldier stuns you with rockets, Engineer Senties cause knockbacks and so much more. Hell, even bullets stun or knock you back. And I LOVE how hypocritical these people are: *When BrainDead Soldier stuns you with rockets* - "Welp, I could surf it" *When a good Scout stuns you with a slow-moving ball* - "NOOOOO, I DON'T CARE THAT I COULD HAVE DODGED THAT, STUN MECHANICS DON'T BELONG TO TF2". Also I feel your pain about Sandman: Same goes to the old Axtinguisher - apparently a close range combat class should never be strong in close ranged combat... The old Sandman was a display of skill. Much like puff-and-sting or even more.
It's incomprehensible. I don't understand where these people came from. My favorite part is that these sore losers actually go out and say that the sandman didn't take skill to use when i'm 100% sure they couldn't land a guillotine combo if their life depended on it.
@@yogurtColombiano you know what counters stun that disables your ability to fight back? A good movement. In a movement shooter. You. Should. Be. Better. At. Movement. To. Not. Get. Stunned. In a *movement* shooter. Having stun mechanics even amplifies that TF2 is a movement shooter lol.
stuns and knockbacks are definitely not the same, knockbacks are much more free-form, you can surf and strafe and still aim while being knocked back, when you're stunned you literally just have to sit and wait for what happens to you because you can neither aim nor shoot, it's dull. not to say that stun has NO place in game like tf2 but damn it's gotta be really restricted, otherwise it just leads to incredibly degenerate gameplay.
You literally just stated the difference. You can surf knockback. You can't do that with the sandman stun. Knockback from rockets still lets you do counterplay.
Hey urr Gabber. I had an idea. So yeah, urr.. Why don't we just go ahead and go to Valve Headquarters | with a lawyer to un-nerf the Ambassador and Sandman, with a much better version of "#FixTF2", called "#Endthenewgen", A riot? I dunno, something. Take Valve to court over rubbish and make something happen. I dunno, we all have things to do but just, :l I'm so sick of these people who argue against what TF2 was and in a way still is. And when I argue against them, they've pulled this "Oh, there goes you blamming comp again" Like WHAT?! Yous got the changes to go in?! Why don't I just go take a real sandman and bat-ta a thousand?! But no "e hehehehe, I guess I'm just a silly guy with a silly opinion😅"
edit:thinking about it, the fleeing state is somewhat on the right direction(probably only against sniper but). it gives snipers a fighting chance in a way. however the fact that it depends on how far the target can be annoying, especially when you cant remove it as easily as afterburn. and other kinda got this balance removed tbh i do think something like the sandman giving a mad milk bonus would be a good option , kinda like a condensed milk where you get higher healing but only 1-2 targets can be hit with a sandman ball, can be useful for people who want to use the sandman as a support tool. and the sandman ball dealing 75 damage towards milked enemies(50 to sandman milk), with the cleaver dealing 150+bleed for both would be fine too. (i also think to add extra bufs maybe the sandman should have 4 baseballs with a same firing rate of a flare gun/ rocket launcher, but with a scattergun compensation[ie less damage to non milked enemies, less clip size, but a reload on kill], but i feel like it would make it too gimmicky). effect time would be consistent so being close would be better for consistency. but far range can be useful idrk any downsides i could give. im planing on giving it 'an eye for an eye' thing where every enemy unther the effects of milk can leech off your health but idk. -og post- thank fucking god, now time to remove the scorch shot's stun(and ngl probably the loose cannon but im still on the fence abt it). im really sorry but there's no reason for it to stun tbh people complain about blue shells on mariokart even when playing with their friends, so idk why you guys shit on comp and tf2bers lmao (also honestly giving people the inability to fight back arguably ruins why the concept of the whole 2 shot= dead thing ngl).
In my opinion, the diference between gets "stunned" by rockets and stuned by the ball is simple, the rockets don't literally make you unable to try to counter attack, but the sandman literally disables everything you have "ah, but you need to hit someone alone to it work well", fella, think with me when you get "stun locked" by rockets you can shot and run, the old sandman don't, like it can have stun mechanics, but not in a shit way, and at all, buff the sandman (Buff in order to balance) because yeah, at same time i want to your guys doing funny, i don't want to get paralized by ball that come from another country, like the Huntsman, a bit of hitbox rework can fix him, but the sandman... stun on a class fast like scout something that don't combine, like if you are the faster being, why you would want to make people stop to you? please Valve cook the sandman in a better way, for both sides being okay with it
Gabber is probably the saltiest sounding person I've ever heard. He's complaining about the nerf to a weapon that was, and still is, almost unanimously considered unfun. It stops your target from attacking or blast jumping, AND it slows them down. It basically stops your target from playing the game for a few seconds. Even stunning weapons like the scorch shot at least let you still shoot your weapon. Because of that there's little to no counterplay once they're stunned. Running back to your team like a little bitch even when at near-full HP is just not fun to have to do, and the stun forces you to for survival. It's basically hand-cuffing your target to a chair and beating the tar out of them while they can't fight back and can barely move. There's a good chance your team is nowhere nearby. Most of the fights in this game are between individuals And it really doesn't require as much skill as he says. Though it takes skill to land the initial hit, it also removes the need for some skill since the target is both slowed down and can't fight back. After you get a hit with the ball, it's basically shooting fish in a barrel. It's not even really a useful weapon for a scout to have, since they already have a huge advantage for dodging attacks and such. What it basically does is curbstomp your opponent while you yell into their ear that they should be having fun right now. And that's not even considering the cleaver. The only people I can see enjoying using it are those who gain perverse pleasure from pissing other people off, AKA, scunts. The sort who are probably thinking "Why do my enemies deserve to have fun?" as they read this. And judging by how broody he sounds in this video, I think he falls squarely into this category. The sandman deserved the nerf, but it shouldn't have been given the slowdown. There are other, better effects it could apply that give the target actual counterplay options, such as marking for death.
Literally used to be my favourite scout melee before it died a cold and merciless death. Its nerf was so BS too. Suddenly the sandman was "overpowered" because it rewarded you for utilising your skill and hitting the enemy with the ball. That's quite-literally how all weapons work in FPS games. The sandman was just a unique instance of that basic design philosophy that wasn't even very powerful. It allowed skilled scouts to excel at picking off lone, vulnerable targets which is something he already did really well, at the exchange of making you weaker overall. A glass-cannon weapon, quite literally, yet it was still somehow "overpowered" according to competitive. Valve should've never shifted to competitive. PS I went through the stages of grief with its nerf too mate. Luckily I discovered something that makes me feel slightly better about its death. If you can activate the wrap assassin crit glitch (very easy to do in servers that have random crits), you can effectively pair the wrap assassin with the cleaver to deal 175 damage total, which is enough to kill up to Pyros and Demos if you hit both projectiles. If you don't know how to do the exploit you can look it up. Granted, it's still weaker than the old combo and will never replace it sadly, but it's the closest thing you'll ever get to feeling the sheer damage output and dopamine release of the old combo.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger What about it was poorly designed? Shall we go into a tangent about how knockback should be removed from the game because it fully immobilizes you in mid-air and you "CaN't FiGhT bAcK?"
@@JeffarryLounder Normal knockback doesn't, though. Straphing actually works with it, which can't be said for the sandman's stun. And since then, I've found a community server that reverts the sandman. After playing with and against it, my opinion still stands.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger You play once with and against it with an already-biased take from years of TFtuber garbage and you think that's valid to bring up? And no, in a lot of cases knockback does fully immobilise you. Look at soldiers: one rocket at the feet and you're knocked up into the air defenseless and vulnerable. Then look at the scorch shot: knockback, up in the air, and immobilised. Airblast: can knock you up against a wall, completely defenseless and vulnerable again. Force a Nature is the same exact deal. I can go on and on about situations in the game where weapons can immobilise players. The sandman didn't even fully immobilise you, it slowed you. On top of that, it done it at a distance. If your target was near cover or around their teammates they could very easily waddle behind a corner or retreat to be safe. It was never overpowered. Not in the slightest.
@@JeffarryLounder "Your opinion is bad because it agrees with X RUclipsr". I don't agree because they said it; I agree because the points they made were logical enough. And I hate the scorch shot, too. I want no misunderstanding that I don't. Its stun is annoying as shit despite not lasting half as a long as a sandman stun. Rockets move at a fraction the speed of the sandman ball, and it's easier to maneuver so that you don't get launched straight up, and instead get launched laterally, allowing for air straphing. The sandman does none of that. If I'm not mistaken, you can't even jump while stunned.
Comp scene Valve wanted so bad for it to work out but lo and behold Its ded now 😂 I blame comp entirely on this one. You can tell who is complaining by their main. I miss the old sandman. Moonshots on degroot were legendary. Also picking up the baseball to be able to keep the momentum but it required high skills. The amby nerf was sniper mains complaining spies took their role 10x better. If anything sniper class needs a huge nerf or rework and heavy needs buffs. Remember the decrease health and some guys found a way to exploit it for infinte health. Yeah Gas passer is now op in mvm Sandman is meh Fists of steel and chocolate bar is flat out op on heavy now. Valve needs to actually play the game every blue moon. See just how bad it really is tbh.
Maybe the Guillottine combo was a bit too strong, but the Sandman itself did not deserve to be nerfed, because for the most part it was a nieche weapon at best and an unreliable tool at worse, and I as a former Sandman Scout (not a great one but if I could land Guillottine combos that might mean something) can testify to ironically be more efficient and deadly without it. I mean, think about it: I went from throwing a baseball that may or may not stun an opponent for long enough for me or anyone else to shoot dead, to just shooting the other guy dead, and that's without counting the weapon swap passage. So ultimately, the nerf didn't solve anything but only ended up gutting a fun gimmicky weapon that did have high potential, but that was also just as unreliable. Edit: 20:40 Ironically, the "Counter to a counter" was one of the points for the old Ambassador: Being a counter to the Sniper Razorback counter for spy.
A hitscan weapon that repeatedly slows and immobilises you completely at long AND close range VS a skilled projectile weapon that only stunned at mid-range and above and still allowed you to wobble back behind cover without being fully immobilised. The Natascha has always been BS. The sandman: nowhere near as much.
Question. In this video you're talking about Sandman in a team objective game mode or a "get a highest killstreak" game mode (upward or hightower)? Just curious.
i dont think valve balances stuff based on whats overpowered, but instead based on whats fun. you dont have to shut down a server for it to be unfun, irritating, and unbalanced. think fighting against Sniper; he's skill-based and a sniper that isnt a bot can't shut down a server on his own, so he's not overpowered, right? stuns arent fun and dont really belong in tf2. even moonshots, getting unlucky and being met with essentially an extended respawn queue sucked ass the shitty thing is they completely derailed this weapon and didnt even touch the downsides; now youre just nerfing yourself using this thing, its genuinely so sad. i think the sandman being more of a "get over here" option to nerf an enemy thats trying to get away is fun, but valve just changed a line of code one tuesday and forgot that's not how good balancing is done buff the sandman; not with a stun or anything, but just make the downsides not nearly as harsh. maybe give it some big knockback on top of the slow, like the scout's version of loose cannon, and all just at the penalty of like -15% switch to/from speed. a get off me tool at short range and a 'let me catch up to you' tool at long range? thats my concept
but but but BUT BUT BUT CROWD CONTROL LLLLLLLLLE HECKING SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No really, I'm glad I'm not insane. I played from release up to 2012 and the Sandman was completely fucking fine. I blame ADHD for this.
It isn't that the combo is broken but a hard stun is pretty lame, it should've had a better thing done to it then a slight slow....like a heavy slow and extremely lowered fire speed.
Ah yes, hitting an enemy with the fastest projectile in the whole game as a fucking scout is a very skilled endeaver and should be rewarded with a fucking stun the wrap assassin deals bleed instead of a stun and it's a very strong option that rivals the atomizer since it's not that fucking hard to hit someone with the fastest projectile in the game as scout Also, stun mechanics suck ass especially in a movement shooter like tf2, not being able to play the game because some dipshit scout hit you with the fastest projectile In the game is asanine game design, thank god it got removed don't even get me started on the cleaver combo, despite it feeling fun to do, basically hitting a headshot on scout by hitting someone with two of the fastest projectiles in the game, the second one being done while the enemy is slowed and can't fight back is incredibly stupid. Hell, the cleaver's still debatably overpowered without the combo (it's not a huge deal, doesn't need a nerf or anything but it's not bad in the slightest today) "the natascha is a stupid weapon" YES. The natascha ALSO sucks ass to fight against and shouldn't be in the game, good observation! The scorch shot should also not exist.
I don’t think the sandman shouldn't have been nerfed to its current state, but I would eat my keyboard if I got stunned and cleaver crit by some scunt. The old combo may have taken skill, but it also (reportedly[I wasn’t playing back then]) crazy annoying for the victim. The sandman shouldn’t have had a movement inhibiting mechanic to begin with. I’ve heard suggestions that it could instead mark people for death, and I agree that it would be a lot more fair. Basically, the old sandman felt like AIDS to be hit by, skillful or not, and anybody who wishes for it to be reverted is probably just really pissed about how badly it was nerfed. Edit: I hate autocorrect with a passion
Even if you thought stun was the most op thing in the universe, removing it was not the answer. It really made the game less unique. Screw people who want every game to be a competitive game.
Stuns are unfun period. I wasn't playing back then, but the idea of being rendered unable to move easily or fight back because I got whacked by a projectile that was onscreen for a split second sounds bullshit. I don't give a rat's ass about comp. I play casually, and I know I would've hated it if I played back then.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger "I wasn't playing back then" That's all we need to hear. You base your opinions off of something you never experienced in-game. Keep quiet.
@@JeffarryLounder I've experienced very similar things that are still in TF2, and in other games. For example, being frightened by ghosts is practically identical to the old stun. And it's annoying as fuck.
Nerfing weapons like Sandman and Ambassador is probably the biggest reason why people complain about Sniper being overpowered.
you might be onto something
I forgot how much the old amby shat on snipers until right now. These days if a sniper is on a high ground like the roof on Harvest then a spy has to spend a good 10 seconds walking all the way around and up the building to go for a stab. With the old amby, you could just headshot the sniper from below, punishing him for standing still too long and using poor cover. Even if the spy couldn't follow up on the headshot and get the kill, it still forced the sniper to fuck off and go grab an hp pack
They also nerfed the caber, brass beast and natascha because of crying sniper players. Its not talked about a lot but they were a protected class citizen when valve actually payched the game.
@@OizenXWait the Brass Beast was nerfed?
@@proactiveomnipresentvessel6569 it used to give the 20% resistances buff at full health too, this meant that snipers couldn't kill overhealed
heavies with a fully charged headshot, therefore it "had" to get nerfed.
This thing was only nerfed because "gamedesign experts" like Uncle Dane didnt like the concept of stunning someone and thought it had no place in a "competitive game" like TF2.
Exactly.
You don't understand, tf2 should be 10 engineers who are convinced they are the smartest person in the room standing in corners with pybros sucking all fun and joy out of the universe.
Don't forget Soundsmith. He was another person who started a massive hate campaign against it leading to his army of 9 year old noobs to spam Valve saying to remove it. But yeah the competitive community fueled the flames with their incessant whining.
@@peepance1799 Pybros are up there with my top-10 most hated things in TF2 lmao. You can be a spy, trickstab an engineer off his sentry, quickly sap all his buildings which would have been one of the sickest things you've done all day... only for some room-temp IQ "Pybro" to show up, wave his mouse all over you until you die, and then remove all your sappers with one swing each, making the entire process useless.
Ironically, whenever I checked the discussions about the old Sandman, people seem to be more afraid about what they THINK a good Scout could do Vs what a good scout would ACTUALLY do, which 90% of the times was throw it in the bin because, while having a high potential, it is also unreliable due to the stun time/distance to the target and a massive heindrance due to the health penalty, at least that was the case before the Guillottine was introduced, because after all, the Sandman only started getting "annoying" to people because of the combo oneshots, before that I personally barely ever seen anybody using it, figures that sometimes I even had more experienced Scout teammates telling me NOT to use it because of the health penalty.
They nerfed every interesting weapon.
Because ppl cried about them when they died to them
@@teyyo9745 wonder why that happened huh
@@CharaGonzalez-lt7yw yeah I wonder why too
A weapon like the windowmaker or flare gun is interesting.
The sandman is just a pain in the ass.
@@nak_0519 those are for pyro and engineer
"Competitive play" means you can't have fun, off the wall, items like the sandman, it's a shame really
I strongly agree with everything this gentleman said in this video. Playing since 2011, NEVER had any problems with either Sandman or Ambassador and I main f medic, the class everyone wants to kill asap. Terrible nerfs NOBODY needed.
Never forget what they took from you
I can't believe it but fishonastick supports the sandman nerf, stated in his newest video, finding the sandman flying gelatine combo broken. Now I am wondering when he played tf2.
But he didn't said that it was deserved that the sandman was nerfed THIS much
I'm an absolute launch-day boomer and this is nothing new. So much of this game has been flushed down the toilet for a competitive scene that never actually had a reason to be upset because it would just be banned or removed server-side. A lot of stuff did release busted and did deserve a change down the road but Valve spent way too much time hollowing out their core philosophies for a vocal minority that would never be happy and still isn't satisfied to this day. But hey, at least they got their matchmaking.
Played since 2008 and feel your exact same sentiment mate. Newer-gen players from 2014 onwards have no clue how old TF2 used to feel. The community behind it where having a conversation about life and funny in-game banter between players was extremely common per match, and the relaxing casual gameplay that the majority of people never took seriously were what made TF2 so unique. As with all the uniquely-designed mechanics that quite-literally only existed in TF2 and no other game. Then with the growing loud and annoying competitive community, and later on with pressure from Overwatch's existence, Valve decided bridging the competitive scene with casual was the best idea, effectively killing all kinds of fun weapons and playstyles in the process. Despite the fact a lot of said playstyles required significant skill to pull off anyway, and only raised the skill ceiling of every class.
A matchmaking that they don't even want to use btw
In modern FPS games who have sold their souls to the scourge known as "Esports" you aren't allowed to have interesting or dynamic weapons that do not strictly adhere to the "Meta Slave" mentality. The reason is that the 1% of "competitive" players, which are usually youtubers or streamers, will complain because their childlike and picky brain chemistry cannot comprehend anything else besides their own selfish vision of the game. This means no mechanics THEY find annoying, no maps THEY find too weird or "gimmicky", no fun THEY find unfair. The 99% of the people who like said things, suck it up like adults, or don't care either way are then forced to see their favorite game get neutered by the Devs because for some reason they bow down to these small percentage of shallow cretins along with their equally mindless fans who've been duped into believing whatever they say about "balance". Such decisions usually leads to a hemorrhaging of the playerbase and the "competitive" players are left to wonder "what happened" as they remain oblivious to their own role in the game's said downfall.
I cant believe weve spent nearly the same amount of time in dystopian TF2 as we have in good TF2
I remember why that combo was the only reason id play scout, way back. I feel like they couldve kept the combo but make it so it doesnt hard stun people. Used to be my favourite thing to do in the game.
same 😢
"nooooooo ur not meant to stop muh uber with the sandman, aahhhh help me valve!!!!!!! the scunts are ruining my pubstomp!!!!!" - Some comp player, I guess.
I come from the land of fighting games, a distant place where we simulate two men beating each other up for all eternity. When something is high execution, high power, that's generally considered balanced. For example, there's a character in the third Street Fighter game (Makoto) who can do the majority if not all of some character's health in a single combo with the right resources. She's not even the best character in that game. That's just one example, and not all games are like that, but seriously, I don't see why a weapon that doesn't even seem that busted is considered "too strong" in theory to be allowed when in practice it isn't that bad.
Remember kids, skill and power should directly correlate in balance. The more skill something takes, the more powerful it should be.
Well said, and funny that you mention that because i'm a complete shitter in fighting games.
May it rest in peace.
I empathize a lot with your frustration man. The "modern day tf2 devs" for a long time have been completely lobotomized and have had no idea what they were doing.
I remember being a kid watching Blu's long range scout video and thought it was the most dope shit. I never bothered learning it cause i had passions else where but i definitely saw it as a impressive respectable weapon to use, annoying if anything but if you got hit with the sandman 9 times outta 10 it was your own fault. Its just like the ambassador, a weapon that felt victim to the modern day mindset of "if its hard to use and it kills me its broken". And the worst part is the change is so fucking hypocritical, I wish the logic they used to nerf the sandman was used on the Jungle Inferno airblast change.
Speaking of pyro. I remember there used to be ways to avoid a pyros air blast or escape from being pushed off a cliff. Now its a guaranteed grounded push that you can do NOTHING about, the damn hitbox can even hit behind the pyro still. I remember when all hell broke lose in pubs when jungle inferno released or hell when the phlog used to give uber AND healed you. It just feels so weird seeing low skill and brain dead gameplay be actively encouraged. I much prefer dying to a combo pyro who flared me and crit me with the axtinguisher opposed to someone holding down M1 and killing me in 2 seconds with zero engagement or effort on their end.
The vision for the game and the players ever since meet your match has been a slow decline into disappointment. Hats off to you for making another one of these types of videos it really SHOULD put into perspective how much this game has rotted over the years but people still want to live in this delusion that the game is still alive because of "the player count".
While the combo was a bit annoying to deal with back in the day for me (Especially since I was pretty bad with movement and mostly mained Heavy), it spiced up Scout's gameplay and I miss it sometimes, even if I didn't use it personally. Engaging a Sandman Guillotine Scout was a different experience than fighting a regular Scout, and now it's gone thanks to some no-fun fucks that take the game way too seriously and Valve who listened to them.
i miss able to moonshot in saxton hale
I played on kogastopia that added pre jungle inferno stats and I was surprised how balance it was. I expected myself to get a lot of free kills from the combo, but I was kept in line with the CDs and having to accurately swing the ball.
Anyone who actually ever played with the old sandman knows it wasn't OP in any capacity. It's the exact same thing with Sniper: everyone who doesn't play him calls him "overpowered" because they don't see the effort that goes into each kill they make. I've had rounds where I've had to completely swap off of Sniper because I'm being killed multiple times over by the same few people that keep flanking or flying in and deleting me. Same exact thing with old sandman.
@@JeffarryLounder Sniper might not be overpowered but when you nerf nearly every weapon/combo that happened to be effective at dealing with him, what do you think the result will be?
*Cue people suddenly complaining about sniper having way more presence than previously after sandman, ullapool caber and ambassador were nerfed to the ground (along with brass beast for some reason lol)
25:07 players really hate losing the ability to call for medic.
i reckon the buffoon that did the meet your match update loaded all these guns in a singleplayer server where the enemies stand still and thought to himself
''wow golly gees, the weapon stuns you if you stand still and does damage? its clearly broken here its gotta go''
I could say the same for the rest of the weapons that got nerfed with MYM but I digress
Rip oddjob scout :C
I started playing in 2021. Every time someone would show a clip of 2011 sandman I would think “that looks cool; too bad it was overpowered”. After watching this, I wish they never needed it cause Scout as a class feels starving for alt. Playstyles
Glad to see this video made at least one new player see the light.
That one video of Weegeepootis and Ray endlessly stunlocking players by the shutters on Turbine with the Sandman is sovl
I really miss lining a target, letting the ball fly, and then bonking the crap out of an invisible spy between you and your target that you didn't know what there.
Watching you play makes me want to play...haven't played since October. Sandman was not a problem, I feel the nerf was Valve listening to the cry baby comp players that felt casual was their place to prove who was "better"...god forbid you get stunned like once or twice in a match cuz fun is just not allowed in a comp player's mind unless its a pro air shot......
Jungle Inferno was just Valve's attempt at shutting up the comp players (being the loud minority of tf2) after completely failing at giving them the comp update they wanted (Meet your Match)....the same people that want random crits removed and sniper nerfed..."forget the actual FUN element of tf2 and lets just make it into light comp so these comp players can finally shut up..." is my guess on what Valve was thinking.
The main Fault lies with Valve..they had no idea what to do with tf2 and just thought making it more competitive will draw in more players from games like Overwatch and what not, a better solution would have been for them to be more involved in the comp scene while keeping tf2 the way it is, that way comp would just fall in its natural place as a separate thing for serious players but no they were so dumb honestly and thought they could transform the game into something it isn't...just fucking stupid if you ask me. That's what happens when you make millions off of crates and loot boxes that you can't be fucked with actually listening to the player base...
Valve just doesn't care anymore, they just cant be bothered when they have so much money... it's a sad realization but it seems that they have gone the corporate route and could care less about what players want.
And they'll never update the game again to reverse any of their stupid changes
I remember logging in after that update, wanting to goof around with the SM + Guillotine and feeling the utter disappointment that they drained the fun out of the weapon.
I used to use the Sandman before Jungle Inferno nerfed it. It was not overpowered, but it was fun as hell. It made me love playing Scout and felt like I was skilled as him for landing shots. Then it gets nerfed in Jungle Inferno, so I guess no more fun allowed with the Sandman.
I don’t think anyone actually hates the old sandman, their favorite RUclipsr just told them that they do
I don't think I remember seeing any widespread sandman hate until Uncle Dane starting going off about it.
I want this item back.
0:00 now with the Nintendo GMod takedown
“Remember mario kart?”
Man I wished I would've joined TF2 earlier to experience this weapon, now I can't.
It was the funnest Scout weapon by far. Just the feeling of hitting the ball on its own was awesome. The BONK! icon above their head, the bonk noise it made when you hit them, and Scout's voicelines when they got stunned; it all came together to craft an incredibly-satisfying weapon to use. But apparently it was "overpowered" because momentarily disarming your enemy as a weak class was just "unacceptable."
Devs ripping the fun out of a game because of comp. player bitching seems to be a trend. If I recall didn't the same thing happen in Runescape or WoW?
Regardless good video, a shame to see how much Valve butchered the game. And thanks for the timestamps in the description.
I agree with everything you said about the sand man I don’t agree that the wrap assassin being terrible
I miss this soo much I wish they just adjust it and not removed the mechanic. And I miss Blu montage with this combo
I remember how badly I wanted to get this weapon before the nerf only to finally get it after the nerf
25:48 i lold at this
Talking about not dying removing damage and then chat typing kick mini sentry engy
I never liked the sandman due to being the heavy main, but the nerf was absoulute bullshit. Even when I got sandman'd I could usually avoid the guillotine anyways by moving like a psycho.
Gabb, you havent heard but Uncle Dane was suggesting sandman even further nerf after Jungle inferno. In his "gunslinger" (very fun unlock thats "fun" to play against) podcast he suggested further nerf to give minicrits on striked target so actually it could have been even worse can you imagine lol. In the same podcast they were discussing amby change
podcast with the timestamp
ruclips.net/video/bHNaNpbn2i8/видео.htmlm23s
Uncle Dane was a total moron and has genuinely done more damage to the TF2 community than bot hosters.
I think this is probably one of your only Ls, making a weapon with stun mechanics in a shooter is not only cringe but super unfun, not only on top of that there's a weapon that instakills whoever is stunned. I don't care how anti-competitive play you are, who ever designed the OG sandman and added a combo that broken is severely deranged. It takes NO skill to pull off and theres little to nothing you can do on the receiving end. Sorry if that's what you need in the game to get frags tho if thats the case.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're:
A) underage
B) Started playing post Jungle Inferno
Neither of those points are meant to denigrate you, but if they're true they give an excuse for your ignorance, and yes - it is absolutely ignorance.
In the years in which the Sandman was actually good, there were very little complaints about it's supposed "cringe, unfuniness", it was considered, quite universally to be a very fun to use weapon with quite a high skill floor/ceiling (hard to use, harder to master).
Only in the years after JI have i started to hear these opinions, which come mainly from people who have never actually used or had the weapon used against them. People really like to have a definitive opinion about a weapon that they don't have any experience or actual understanding of. I've already mentioned this in the video, if you really want to learn and stop parroting nonsense, go watch old STAR_ / Jerma985 / etc 2013 live commentaries where the old sandman combo is displayed. Out of everything false that you said about the sandman it "taking no skill" is the most ridiculous part.
The market gardener comparison is perfect. A weapon that rewards skilled gameplay, that lets you one shot 7/9 classes with the only counterplay being better movement (or airblast i guess). For some reason its ok on soldier but not scout.
You know what's add one layer of irony in this situation?
The competitive players have BANNED the market gardener because "oneshotting a medic flying across the map is too op and there is nothing medic can do, boohooo".
Say what you want, but the market gardener is single most fair melee crit in the entire game and you deserve that crit for your skill.
@@ivanych6231 that's actually so stupid it's funny. Like yeah of course there's nothing medic can do, you can say that about any fight between a medic and any class. Medic is not really supposed to defend himself like that, that's his team's job.
@@wtgkanp2431 and how comfy is to forget about the crossbow, ubersaw and damage knockback which are all meds best self-defense tools.
@@wtgkanp2431for your info, theres trolldier counter play, is called PAY ATTENTION AND DODGE, bah, being serious you have be alert everytime as a Medic, because Spy exist, Sniper is a thing and Scouts and Pyros are powerfull flankers, a trolldier is the last thing that affect a Med, because... you know if you run towards him their brain bug, because in 99% of cases, people just run away and get market gardened, and at all, he needs to be in air to work, soundsmith made 3 videos about manners to say "Nuh uh" for trolldier (How to counter)
sorry for the text wall, but básically, it's possible to survive a trolldier
@@ivanych6231There's a global whitelist for competitive TF2 weapons bans which I just had to check upon reading this and lo and behold, the only banned Soldier melee as of current is the Disciplinary Action. They actually seem to endorse the Market Gardener because going deep and basically guaranteed sacrificing yourself to hit a chance melee swing on the Medic is high octane baller activity.
I get disliking comp and its community after VALVe so lazily and haphazardly ruined their game trying to cater to them but come on. They are not monsters living under the bed who hate absolutely everything cool on principle
EDIT: I just checked the whitelists for each individual league, and all of them have the Market Gardener whitelisted except for ETF2L. This does not appear to be a fault of competitive so much as them being European. They banned the Gas Passer LOL
Look at all these le epic casual gamers telling us we're having fun wrong by acknowledging that movement imparing effects fucking suck ass in first person movement shooters.
Fun for the person using it............not so much for the person on the receiving end of it. And if you somehow tell me to get good, I'll ask how do you get good against a stun mechanic?
3:05 Ignoring every other melee cause it just wasn't up to the Sandman's standards even though all of them are pretty good......except the sun on the stick.
5:20 After the nerf they should've changed it to something less punishing I will admit, though what would you give it as a new downside?
I always had the idea of turning the moonshot mechanic into a KGB version, with a moonshot you get 5 seconds of crits but still have the -15 max health. If pair with a reliable secondary you can have either the old guillotine back OR crit pistol shots. Overpowered? Maybe?
12:32 it was broken in the fact that you couldn't attack at all or move which is kinda dumb.
Weird how few replies there are for these sorts of comments... I think that reflects on the sorts of people who compose this guy's viewerbase.
>how do you get good against a stun mechanic
The same way you get good at avoiding huntsman arrows: by not getting hit in the first place. And if you do get hit at a range closer than moonshot range, you can still move and retreat back to your team.
@@energeticyellow1637 Doesn't make the stun itself any less unfun. There are other, better things for the ball to do that give the target more options for counterplay. Knockback isn't comparable to the stun, BTW. Getting hit by a rocket, though it knocks you back, lets you do stuff like damage surf. That's non-existant for the sandman stun.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger there is counterplay, strafing, retreating back to your team, you have options.
@@energeticyellow1637 And the slowdown effect that you get alongside the stun makes that harder, too. Also, it prevents movement options like blast jumping. Also, there's the fact that you have to do so to avoid dying, and the fact that it removes the ability to retaliate. It's like fighting with handcuffs on your hands and ankles. Even if you still have some agency, it's reduced so much that it's effectively worthless for changing the outcome.
Odds are really good the change was made in response to competitive players. The highest levels of play (6v6 or Highlander folks mainly) completely fucked several weapons because they didn't fit a very specific meta that focused on maybe a couple classes and a few weapons. Sniper insta-gibbing some poor bastard with hitscan is fine but GOD FORBID a Scout stop someone in place for a handful of seconds.
Remember the Soda Popper?
Remember the Axetinguishet?
Remember the Equalizer?
Can you do videos for those?
Honestly think Soda Popper is better now. If any scout primary was ruined it's the Baby Face's Blaster, which i might make a vid on
@@GODber777 now i see the reply. Man, the first soda popper gave you crits or mini-crits, can’t remember which, for running! How could it be better than that?
maybe the sandman should just do 25 dmg on hit and mark the target for a mini crit upon the next instance of damage withing 4 seconds, this would allow for the sandman+cleaver skill combo to be still a thing but also not annoying to face since you know the scout needed skill to pull it off
Yeah, that'd be cool. It would still be fairly rewarding, but allow for counterplay after being hit, and while not being nearly as annoying.
If it had no health penalty I’d still use it ngl.
The only remotely decent melee options scout has is like...fan'o'war in mvm and the boston basher if you have a friend playing medic (it's pretty much an ubercharge machine). And then the atomizer, like you said. Wrap assassin is hilariously stronger than the sandman now.
Personally, from my own standpoint, I hated getting stunned even more than I hated dying. Now, does that mean that I think the weapon needed to be nerfed? I dunno tbh. But the way went about 'balancing' this weapon shows either they just didn't want to see this weapon anymore or they fundamentally don't understand what they are doing when they change a weapon. A literal amateur could balance this game better than the team in charge of jungle inferno. Admittedly, I need to finish watching the video, so maybe I'll see your point when I finish. I'll get back to you.
Alright. So I finished watching the video.
Honestly, I think I'm swaying towards the camp of 'it never needed a nerf'. Still hate getting stunned tho lol.
@@ebookie_meowda Well people applied the same logic of "it annoys me so let it burn hell" with the ambassador, in fact - you can apply it for everything in the game. Everyone has their own specific idea of what the most annoying thing is. I don't think that's reasonable grounds for nerfing items. If the annoying thing has counters and is avoidable, and isn't braindead to use, it shouldn't be nerfed. As a general rule i would agree that stuns are stupid. But the sandman wasn't some complete bullshit birdbrained tier stun (like say Mcree's flashbang from overwatch) you can dodge it, you can reflect it, it's useless at short range and the scout using it has to know how to actually play the game to get anything out of it to justify losing 15 health.
By the way, Wrap Assassin have some skillshot too. If the ball will be airborne more than 1 second, he will become critical
@@GODber777 Not to mention, if we apply the logic "is annoying so it must be removed" then about 90% of the game mechanics and items should be removed because someone somewhere finds them annoying, and that makes it also a slippery slope trap philosophy since, as we have seen, all it takes is some random tryhard, or newbie, or both, complaining at some item for some dumb reason to get it ruined for everybody, which is also what allegedly happened before Jungle Inferno to the Righteous Bison: somebody taking the game a bit too seriously complained in the forums about it penetrating targets and igniting arrows among other things, and BOOM ! Nerfed into useless !
I miss puff and sting and item sets
its funny cuz normally id say this kind of thing happens when a game dev team wants to push the meta into "competitive" but valve dont even endorse TF2 xD so I have no clue why they did this, without a doubt one of my fav combos RIP (also side note good vid to watch about the peak is BLU)
In my eyes the idea was that these weapons provided specific capabilities that you shouldn't have, rather than being too strong.The ambassador nerf prevents spies from being an untouchable pest by sniping you from behind, and cloaking whenever anything gets too close. The sandman screws over heavy more than anyone else, since you're a big, slow target, typically on the front-line, and at the end you'd have to rev up your minigun again assuming you aren't already out of position by then.
Not trying to justify the current state of being near useless. Just saying. I'd probably favor something like knockback that scales with distance or something...
After Wrap Assassin after Sandman nerf is really good
Was the sandman nerf justified?
No(ish)
Whilst it was hard to hit those balls, getting stunned in tf2 sucks, that's just factual.
Was it overkill? HOLY SHIT YES IT WAS, THE SANDMAN MIGHT JUST BE THE SINGLE WORST WEAPON IN TF2 BY NOW GOD DAMMIT
I would gladly take the old Sandman Guillotine combo which was a bit annoying, but very fun over the current state of the weapon
It's better to have a mildly annoying weapon than a fucking unusable detrimental weapon that you are just better off not using, ever.
How not to get stunned 101
>Get better at the game
Wished I was around in TF2 before they released those updates
@@WHOARETHEPATRIOTS475 Assuming you even saw the scout before they hit you. It also happens that the sandman ball is the fastest projectile in the game. I think you just have a really high-sodium diet.
I don't know why people call The Sandman's stunning mechanic a 'crowd control', when the the so called crowd is one guy getting stunned. Would calling it a single-target stun not roll off the tongue more?
I mean its really cool that you can stun lock random player from across the map as scout. But why? In a game as wacky as tf2, where randoms crits are great addition to the game (no irony) its okay. But personally I have flashbacks about cc abilities in OW and i think its a good change overall, what not so good is that weapons are nerfed to the ground. So here are my changes!
Sandman: moonshot have knockback, with a power of 3 double bonks and sound effect. Let whole server know that you land that shot. Also I suggest that this knockback would be opposite of ball direction (So enemy is yeeted into you)
Flying Guillotine: same as it is but mini crits on rocket jumped enemies (and sandman blasted as well)
Where did this idea of "Stun mechanics do not belong to such fast-paced movement shooter like TF2" even come from??
Like... *what* and *WHY NOT* ?
Stun has always been in TF2 since release; Soldier stuns you with rockets, Engineer Senties cause knockbacks and so much more. Hell, even bullets stun or knock you back.
And I LOVE how hypocritical these people are:
*When BrainDead Soldier stuns you with rockets* - "Welp, I could surf it"
*When a good Scout stuns you with a slow-moving ball* - "NOOOOO, I DON'T CARE THAT I COULD HAVE DODGED THAT, STUN MECHANICS DON'T BELONG TO TF2".
Also I feel your pain about Sandman: Same goes to the old Axtinguisher - apparently a close range combat class should never be strong in close ranged combat...
The old Sandman was a display of skill. Much like puff-and-sting or even more.
It's incomprehensible. I don't understand where these people came from. My favorite part is that these sore losers actually go out and say that the sandman didn't take skill to use when i'm 100% sure they couldn't land a guillotine combo if their life depended on it.
It was more on the option of fighting back.
@@yogurtColombiano you know what counters stun that disables your ability to fight back? A good movement. In a movement shooter.
You. Should. Be. Better. At. Movement. To. Not. Get. Stunned.
In a *movement* shooter.
Having stun mechanics even amplifies that TF2 is a movement shooter lol.
stuns and knockbacks are definitely not the same, knockbacks are much more free-form, you can surf and strafe and still aim while being knocked back, when you're stunned you literally just have to sit and wait for what happens to you because you can neither aim nor shoot, it's dull.
not to say that stun has NO place in game like tf2 but damn it's gotta be really restricted, otherwise it just leads to incredibly degenerate gameplay.
You literally just stated the difference. You can surf knockback. You can't do that with the sandman stun. Knockback from rockets still lets you do counterplay.
14:53 l lmao at this part
Hey urr Gabber.
I had an idea. So yeah, urr..
Why don't we just go ahead and go to Valve Headquarters
| with a lawyer to un-nerf the Ambassador and Sandman,
with a much better version of "#FixTF2", called "#Endthenewgen",
A riot? I dunno, something. Take Valve to court over rubbish
and make something happen. I dunno, we all have
things to do but just, :l
I'm so sick of these people who argue against what TF2 was and
in a way still is. And when I argue against them, they've pulled this
"Oh, there goes you blamming comp again" Like WHAT?!
Yous got the changes to go in?!
Why don't I just go take a real sandman and bat-ta a thousand?!
But no
"e hehehehe, I guess I'm just a silly guy with a silly opinion😅"
edit:thinking about it, the fleeing state is somewhat on the right direction(probably only against sniper but). it gives snipers a fighting chance in a way. however the fact that it depends on how far the target can be annoying, especially when you cant remove it as easily as afterburn. and other kinda got this balance removed tbh
i do think something like the sandman giving a mad milk bonus would be a good option , kinda like a condensed milk where you get higher healing but only 1-2 targets can be hit with a sandman ball, can be useful for people who want to use the sandman as a support tool.
and the sandman ball dealing 75 damage towards milked enemies(50 to sandman milk), with the cleaver dealing 150+bleed for both would be fine too.
(i also think to add extra bufs maybe the sandman should have 4 baseballs with a same firing rate of a flare gun/ rocket launcher, but with a scattergun compensation[ie less damage to non milked enemies, less clip size, but a reload on kill], but i feel like it would make it too gimmicky).
effect time would be consistent so being close would be better for consistency. but far range can be useful
idrk any downsides i could give. im planing on giving it 'an eye for an eye' thing where every enemy unther the effects of milk can leech off your health but idk.
-og post-
thank fucking god, now time to remove the scorch shot's stun(and ngl probably the loose cannon but im still on the fence abt it).
im really sorry but there's no reason for it to stun tbh
people complain about blue shells on mariokart even when playing with their friends, so idk why you guys shit on comp and tf2bers lmao
(also honestly giving people the inability to fight back arguably ruins why the concept of the whole 2 shot= dead thing ngl).
the Sandman totally got what it deserved
In my opinion, the diference between gets "stunned" by rockets and stuned by the ball is simple, the rockets don't literally make you unable to try to counter attack, but the sandman literally disables everything you have "ah, but you need to hit someone alone to it work well", fella, think with me when you get "stun locked" by rockets you can shot and run, the old sandman don't, like it can have stun mechanics, but not in a shit way, and at all, buff the sandman (Buff in order to balance) because yeah, at same time i want to your guys doing funny, i don't want to get paralized by ball that come from another country, like the Huntsman, a bit of hitbox rework can fix him, but the sandman... stun on a class fast like scout something that don't combine, like if you are the faster being, why you would want to make people stop to you?
please Valve cook the sandman in a better way, for both sides being okay with it
avrage sandman user moment 25:47 XD😀
Gabber is probably the saltiest sounding person I've ever heard. He's complaining about the nerf to a weapon that was, and still is, almost unanimously considered unfun.
It stops your target from attacking or blast jumping, AND it slows them down. It basically stops your target from playing the game for a few seconds. Even stunning weapons like the scorch shot at least let you still shoot your weapon.
Because of that there's little to no counterplay once they're stunned. Running back to your team like a little bitch even when at near-full HP is just not fun to have to do, and the stun forces you to for survival. It's basically hand-cuffing your target to a chair and beating the tar out of them while they can't fight back and can barely move. There's a good chance your team is nowhere nearby. Most of the fights in this game are between individuals
And it really doesn't require as much skill as he says. Though it takes skill to land the initial hit, it also removes the need for some skill since the target is both slowed down and can't fight back. After you get a hit with the ball, it's basically shooting fish in a barrel.
It's not even really a useful weapon for a scout to have, since they already have a huge advantage for dodging attacks and such.
What it basically does is curbstomp your opponent while you yell into their ear that they should be having fun right now.
And that's not even considering the cleaver.
The only people I can see enjoying using it are those who gain perverse pleasure from pissing other people off, AKA, scunts.
The sort who are probably thinking "Why do my enemies deserve to have fun?" as they read this.
And judging by how broody he sounds in this video, I think he falls squarely into this category.
The sandman deserved the nerf, but it shouldn't have been given the slowdown. There are other, better effects it could apply that give the target actual counterplay options, such as marking for death.
Literally used to be my favourite scout melee before it died a cold and merciless death. Its nerf was so BS too. Suddenly the sandman was "overpowered" because it rewarded you for utilising your skill and hitting the enemy with the ball. That's quite-literally how all weapons work in FPS games. The sandman was just a unique instance of that basic design philosophy that wasn't even very powerful. It allowed skilled scouts to excel at picking off lone, vulnerable targets which is something he already did really well, at the exchange of making you weaker overall. A glass-cannon weapon, quite literally, yet it was still somehow "overpowered" according to competitive. Valve should've never shifted to competitive.
PS I went through the stages of grief with its nerf too mate. Luckily I discovered something that makes me feel slightly better about its death. If you can activate the wrap assassin crit glitch (very easy to do in servers that have random crits), you can effectively pair the wrap assassin with the cleaver to deal 175 damage total, which is enough to kill up to Pyros and Demos if you hit both projectiles. If you don't know how to do the exploit you can look it up. Granted, it's still weaker than the old combo and will never replace it sadly, but it's the closest thing you'll ever get to feeling the sheer damage output and dopamine release of the old combo.
Requiring skill =/= well designed
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger What about it was poorly designed? Shall we go into a tangent about how knockback should be removed from the game because it fully immobilizes you in mid-air and you "CaN't FiGhT bAcK?"
@@JeffarryLounder Normal knockback doesn't, though. Straphing actually works with it, which can't be said for the sandman's stun. And since then, I've found a community server that reverts the sandman. After playing with and against it, my opinion still stands.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger You play once with and against it with an already-biased take from years of TFtuber garbage and you think that's valid to bring up?
And no, in a lot of cases knockback does fully immobilise you. Look at soldiers: one rocket at the feet and you're knocked up into the air defenseless and vulnerable. Then look at the scorch shot: knockback, up in the air, and immobilised. Airblast: can knock you up against a wall, completely defenseless and vulnerable again. Force a Nature is the same exact deal. I can go on and on about situations in the game where weapons can immobilise players. The sandman didn't even fully immobilise you, it slowed you. On top of that, it done it at a distance. If your target was near cover or around their teammates they could very easily waddle behind a corner or retreat to be safe. It was never overpowered. Not in the slightest.
@@JeffarryLounder "Your opinion is bad because it agrees with X RUclipsr". I don't agree because they said it; I agree because the points they made were logical enough. And I hate the scorch shot, too. I want no misunderstanding that I don't. Its stun is annoying as shit despite not lasting half as a long as a sandman stun.
Rockets move at a fraction the speed of the sandman ball, and it's easier to maneuver so that you don't get launched straight up, and instead get launched laterally, allowing for air straphing. The sandman does none of that. If I'm not mistaken, you can't even jump while stunned.
Comp scene
Valve wanted so bad for it to work out but lo and behold
Its ded now 😂
I blame comp entirely on this one.
You can tell who is complaining by their main.
I miss the old sandman. Moonshots on degroot were legendary. Also picking up the baseball to be able to keep the momentum but it required high skills.
The amby nerf was sniper mains complaining spies took their role 10x better.
If anything sniper class needs a huge nerf or rework and heavy needs buffs.
Remember the decrease health and some guys found a way to exploit it for infinte health.
Yeah
Gas passer is now op in mvm
Sandman is meh
Fists of steel and chocolate bar is flat out op on heavy now.
Valve needs to actually play the game every blue moon. See just how bad it really is tbh.
Maybe the Guillottine combo was a bit too strong, but the Sandman itself did not deserve to be nerfed, because for the most part it was a nieche weapon at best and an unreliable tool at worse, and I as a former Sandman Scout (not a great one but if I could land Guillottine combos that might mean something) can testify to ironically be more efficient and deadly without it.
I mean, think about it: I went from throwing a baseball that may or may not stun an opponent for long enough for me or anyone else to shoot dead, to just shooting the other guy dead, and that's without counting the weapon swap passage.
So ultimately, the nerf didn't solve anything but only ended up gutting a fun gimmicky weapon that did have high potential, but that was also just as unreliable.
Edit: 20:40 Ironically, the "Counter to a counter" was one of the points for the old Ambassador: Being a counter to the Sniper Razorback counter for spy.
"Maybe the Guillottine combo was a bit too strong"
NO!
You got people complaining avout the natasha despite the fact that it's a worse version of the minigun amd you want the samdman's nerf to be reverted?
A hitscan weapon that repeatedly slows and immobilises you completely at long AND close range VS a skilled projectile weapon that only stunned at mid-range and above and still allowed you to wobble back behind cover without being fully immobilised.
The Natascha has always been BS. The sandman: nowhere near as much.
Question. In this video you're talking about Sandman in a team objective game mode or a "get a highest killstreak" game mode (upward or hightower)? Just curious.
I don't even understand the question. Speaking about the item in tf2, period.
i dont think valve balances stuff based on whats overpowered, but instead based on whats fun. you dont have to shut down a server for it to be unfun, irritating, and unbalanced. think fighting against Sniper; he's skill-based and a sniper that isnt a bot can't shut down a server on his own, so he's not overpowered, right?
stuns arent fun and dont really belong in tf2. even moonshots, getting unlucky and being met with essentially an extended respawn queue sucked ass
the shitty thing is they completely derailed this weapon and didnt even touch the downsides; now youre just nerfing yourself using this thing, its genuinely so sad. i think the sandman being more of a "get over here" option to nerf an enemy thats trying to get away is fun, but valve just changed a line of code one tuesday and forgot that's not how good balancing is done
buff the sandman; not with a stun or anything, but just make the downsides not nearly as harsh. maybe give it some big knockback on top of the slow, like the scout's version of loose cannon, and all just at the penalty of like -15% switch to/from speed. a get off me tool at short range and a 'let me catch up to you' tool at long range?
thats my concept
Oh shit it’s Gabber
but but but BUT BUT BUT CROWD CONTROL LLLLLLLLLE HECKING SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No really, I'm glad I'm not insane. I played from release up to 2012 and the Sandman was completely fucking fine. I blame ADHD for this.
It isn't that the combo is broken but a hard stun is pretty lame, it should've had a better thing done to it then a slight slow....like a heavy slow and extremely lowered fire speed.
Ah yes, hitting an enemy with the fastest projectile in the whole game as a fucking scout is a very skilled endeaver and should be rewarded with a fucking stun
the wrap assassin deals bleed instead of a stun and it's a very strong option that rivals the atomizer since it's not that fucking hard to hit someone with the fastest projectile in the game as scout
Also, stun mechanics suck ass especially in a movement shooter like tf2, not being able to play the game because some dipshit scout hit you with the fastest projectile In the game is asanine game design, thank god it got removed
don't even get me started on the cleaver combo, despite it feeling fun to do, basically hitting a headshot on scout by hitting someone with two of the fastest projectiles in the game, the second one being done while the enemy is slowed and can't fight back is incredibly stupid. Hell, the cleaver's still debatably overpowered without the combo (it's not a huge deal, doesn't need a nerf or anything but it's not bad in the slightest today)
"the natascha is a stupid weapon" YES. The natascha ALSO sucks ass to fight against and shouldn't be in the game, good observation! The scorch shot should also not exist.
I don’t think the sandman shouldn't have been nerfed to its current state, but I would eat my keyboard if I got stunned and cleaver crit by some scunt. The old combo may have taken skill, but it also (reportedly[I wasn’t playing back then]) crazy annoying for the victim. The sandman shouldn’t have had a movement inhibiting mechanic to begin with. I’ve heard suggestions that it could instead mark people for death, and I agree that it would be a lot more fair. Basically, the old sandman felt like AIDS to be hit by, skillful or not, and anybody who wishes for it to be reverted is probably just really pissed about how badly it was nerfed.
Edit: I hate autocorrect with a passion
SOVL
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 im glad dat u are exist still broooo but im sooooo fuu***ng saaaaaaaaad about it fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*********
Even if you thought stun was the most op thing in the universe, removing it was not the answer. It really made the game less unique.
Screw people who want every game to be a competitive game.
Stuns are unfun period. I wasn't playing back then, but the idea of being rendered unable to move easily or fight back because I got whacked by a projectile that was onscreen for a split second sounds bullshit.
I don't give a rat's ass about comp. I play casually, and I know I would've hated it if I played back then.
@@Kirk.Schr0dinger "I wasn't playing back then"
That's all we need to hear. You base your opinions off of something you never experienced in-game. Keep quiet.
@@JeffarryLounder I've experienced very similar things that are still in TF2, and in other games. For example, being frightened by ghosts is practically identical to the old stun. And it's annoying as fuck.