I have PTSD from when my great-grandparents slipped and fell in unison down my staircase, and I had to watch them painfully bleed out over 8 seconds. Every time I get hit by L'exectuteur, I curl up into a ball and scream for 6 hours straight, instantly making me useless for the rest of the match. Anyone who uses this cursed weapon is going straight to JAHANNAM.
@@cuppedcupEvery time I take a shower, I get a flashback to when I was shot by the L’Executeur and suffered from the affliction of bleeding for 8 seconds.
"No one has fallen for a feigned death since 2014" Mr. TheWhat, my competitive team in Highlander once paused our game because we killed an enemy sniper and saw another one roll out next to him. Here the teammate disguised as his allied sniper and confused the FUCK out of us when he died and another sniper shows up around the corner.
That's mainly because spies rarely ever use teammate disguises, and for obvious reasons, it's also a matter of most TF2 players in general not knowing you can actually disguise as your own team.
@@spimpsmacker6422that’s all I do. Run into the death choke and die as ally scout to get behind them faster than flank route. Only way to play deadringer imo
I genuinely love fighting against the Huntsman. If I see a Huntsman sniper on the other team I switch to Pyro and make it my life's mission to get an arrow reflect kill on them. I know others will disagree but getting that reflect headshot is probably the best feeling in the game. The headshot hitboxes on the Huntsman are genuinely fucking bonkers though, it is a pretty stupid ass weapon, I just love to humiliate the people who use it so it balances out.
Oddly enough, i get more arrow reflect kills on other ememies than the huntsman, because most snipers just walk back the corner and the enemy just so happens to rush at that moment. I find it funny, because it's lucksman for pyro
I genuinely love fighting against the Huntsman. If I see a Huntsman sniper on the other team I'm glad because they aren't using a rifle and I can actually fight back
@@hamhelly9115 Still not as much bias as russian speaking TF community have for heavy. For short, they hate heavy so much, literally as much as english community hates snipers. If you carry the game as heavy, people would deny you a win, taunt you with "go back to *game bad of the day* (usually overwatch, cod and valorant)" and say you took an easy, almost a cheat path to win.
@@ilyakusenco8151 i have neverr actually seen a Russian player shit on Heavy. Granted, despite being Russian myself, i almost never see Russian players.
I love how this video is nonstop trading between the cope, troglodyte, and Greek Philosopher sticks, and you never know who is gonna take what role until they give their take Sometimes they're all cooking! Sometimes they're all monkey screaming at the funny boomer shooter gun
That applies to literally every single projectile weapon. Hell, you could argue most people wouldn't be able to consistently hit those with the direct hit nearly as easily as someone using stock due to the splash radius.
@blueberrimuffin6682 The main difference with most other projectiles is that you can't get insta-gibbed from full health by them, while Direct Hit rockets can one shot light classes. Of course, the counterpoint to the argument would still always be "positioning," where every step you take closer to the enemy spawn and away from your team's center of mass is a higher risk you take of being on the receiving end of a crazy soldier prefiring into a doorframe off of sheer muscle memory alone, but I can understand the frustration when it does happen for the five dozenth time in a week.
@@tincat2347 It happens to me at least every other time I try to do anything. When I try to get a kill, boom. Soldier. I try to move slightly out of the way of my team, bam, soldier. But seriously, it happens to me more than I'd like and they were just using hyperbole to make a point which is fine.
Listening to TheWhat talk about the Neon made me question if he remembered that you are still considered wet for a small bit when you walk out of the water. Cause every one of his counter points always revolved around the idea that the pyro was sitting in the water waiting, when in reality some pyros use the neon to get a free crit against people who come out from the water
Or when people are soaked in jarate, mad milk (and now the gas passer), which ALSO counts as the wet status. TheWhat can complain all he wants, the Neon is technically a more balanced version of the homewrecker.
It doesn't even matter, his point was dumb af. He was told multiple times that he has a one track mind, but he just can not possibly fathom the idea of Pyro seeing a building on the way to the water and breaking a sapper on it. Why doesn't he then talk about how you can't break enemy buildings with homewrecker if you are standing near your engineer's buildings? TheWhat is actually just a lil hater
I will say from the perspective of a medic main, I entirely agree with the Force A Nature hatred. Scouts are already terrifying when you're a medic because they will trade their life for yours, but the FaN makes it so difficult to use your teammates to protect you. A scout lands one hit on you and you're so out of position now, leaving you EXTREMELY vulnerable. It takes one of your strongest counters and makes them counter you even harder
hard agree, anything that knocks me out of position as a medic is super annoying, doubly so paired with the scout's pure mobility and damage output up close. also speaking as a medic main i find their insistence that nobody would want to play medic [without the crossbow] really funny cause his gameplay loop is super engaging for me
I run shortstop/milk/fan scout and I consider myself extremely honest doing it, because I explicitly use it to bully snipers on instant respawn servers.
I dont think that combo is gonna do much if the sniper is good or has a good team, but then again, its instant respawn so you can try again immediately
I feel like if this was recorded before the gas passer neon big fix, it would've been shorter than it took them to finish the stupid water and building debate
Maddening you mean, the entire list is about the cheesiness of things not if they're viable or not. Dude's argument is WHO IS GONNA TAKE THE NEON WHEN YOU COULD JUST TAKE HOMEWRECKER If there was a Pyro Melee that has 95% reduced damage, and applies bleed for 8 seconds to both your target and self on swing, it'd be a shit Melee. But if it also had infinite range, but only against players whose username starts with "k", and it increases their ping by 50 for the rest of the match, it'd STILL BE SHIT but also cheese as fuck
@@Izunundara I think the most annoying part was how one of them kept trying to imply the sharking and the homewrecking had to be done at the same time. "How often are you in water near buildings being sapped??"
Justice for TheWhat's Neon Take. The fact that blue forgot that the Neon can take zappers out is just plane evidence that isn't something so annoying that you actually remember it
@@unoriginal581it doesn’t matter. You never see it. It’s not cheesy. Spy shouldn’t be sapping a sentry if there’s a pyro standing right next to it ajyway
@@HabitualThinker Yes it does matter, we’re not talking about how often you see weapons, just how cheesy they are to play against when they do show up. And the Neon acts as both an immediate kill some times and an insta-sapper remover at others. It’s not the fact that this happens often, it’s why does it happen at all
@@lefthandedscout9923 the fact that it can destroy sappers at all is annoying and a bit cheese. So is being randomly one shot because you stepped in a puddle 5 seconds ago.
I don't think it matters if they're skill based or not, TF2 isn't designed the same way as CoD or CSGO. You don't just get to instantly win a fight with raw aim in most cases. You have to use good positioning, good game sense, good movement, ect ect along with good aim, which makes it incredibly frustrating when you use all of those skills only to get one-shot by someone who doesn't really need to use anything besides raw aim.
@@thefusingcookie If a sniper takes me out with a headshot, or I get 180 no-scoped by a Direct Hit/Loch n Load, doesn't that take skill + gamesene to put themselves in the position to get the kill? Of course, there's nothing fun about getting stomped by someone with great aim, but if the stomping is _purely_ due to skill, there's a limit to just how pissed off I can get, surely?
@@henryviiifake8244The latter is more bearable and impressive because although they're fast moving projectiles, they're still projectiles and most soldiers & demomen shoot it from mid to close range Sniper's rifle meanwhile is hitscan and has virtually infinite range meaning he can instakill you from across the map without you being able to react Which majority of players don't like because TF2's combat loop is primarily centered around mid-to-close range, and unlike something like CS2 or COD no other weapon (barring amby which no one uses anymore because valve practically killed it) from other classes can headshot, which is why sometimes the only true counter to a sniper is another sniper It's still impressive sure, but unlike Direct Hit soldiers and Loch Demos there's no fun in countering or trying to counter them unless you're also a sniper That's the crux of what all sniper complainers are about, unless he's going huntsman or SMG he's not fun at all to fight
@@henryviiifake8244 yea when i get point blank quickscoped i dont go "ahhh thats bullshit" i say that guys insane, same with getting trickstabbed but peoples ego refuse to accept that a lot of the time, its basically the dunning kruger effect you dont see good players complaining about it very often
Omg I threw this on to have somthing to listen to while drawing, then when you mention it was basically a podcast it made me acctuly looked at the video length. Was not expecting it to be near four hours, but it works for me XD
I ate a mandarin while I watched this and every piece of the fruit had AT LEAST one pit in it. Would definitely put that orange in 'you will not go to heaven' tier.
9239th debunk of "Just pull out your melee" yes, fight the pocketed overhealed soldier who is firing rockets at you with your melee. you're going to hit him once then instantly die, and he's going to heal that 65 damage back in about 1 second then wipe out half your team
The guy above has no insight here. He admitted that you don't play but his advice is STILL "just aim for the Medic." His argument is just as reductive as "just use your melee." The issue with the Vaccinator isn't that there ISN'T counterplay. The issue is that it is an UNREASONABLE AMOUNT OF EFFORT to counter the enemy for making a single weapon choice. Imagine in a different game, say, Call of Duty or Battlefield, you have 3-4 item slots. And you could give up one of these item slots for a -75% damage reduction to ranged damage in exchange for a secondary weapon. You are TRIPLING the time to kill in RANGED COMBAT for changing a SINGLE LOADOUT slot! You are fundamentally CHANGING THE BALANCE OF THE GAME WITH A SINGLE ITEM. Now, imagine if you could apply this buff to a teammate as well AND heal them at the same time.
I remember fighting on Embargo yesterday and someone on the enemy team was using Phlog Pyro and Vaccinator Medic. Our team was spawn camped until one of us decided to go Vaccinator Heavy to counter it. I assume those people will be sent to Super Hell after death.
I will praise you for putting actual words on the tier and not just the letters that lots of people do. Like that little thing makes the intent of the tier list so much clearer (because what "B" or "C" means is never consistent accross that kind of tier list) so like I wanna encourage that every time I see it.
I feel like this take is invalid because as a spy you shouldn’t be anywhere near a pyro if you’re not about to backstab them. Pyro has a flamethrower, the neon annihilator is not your worst enemy
@@HabitualThinker talking about sapper destruction here. It's annoying regardless of which weapon is doing it so calling the neon less annoying than the homewrecker just because it's worse at it is weird. That's the take.
@@SamuelTrademarked Spy also has to be near a sentry to sap it... The issue is if you sap it and think "engie is dead, safe to shoot the pyro" you end up dead when he frees the machine from your little sparky box.
@@owenblount7334 ikr no airblast just any good soldier/demo can just kill them by out ranging them, sure a phlog pyro can sneak attack some people and get a crit spree but the na bunch of people know theres a phlogger so they are more aware I Think
A lone phlog pyro has a spy syndrome of immediately dying to soldier or demo after eviscerating 2 of your teammates. So uhh I think you could blame it on other stuff like vacc med or scorch.
@@billymkj2763 The idea that no-airblast is a massive downside to balance off effectively free full heal and crits depends on the assumption that most players would be getting any use out of the airblast in the first place.
I dislike the assignement of stock uber as cheesy. No its not fun to fight, because its a threat of consequence for not completing the secondary objective of dropping the medic. It is a known quantity in almost every match with a large volume of methods of completing that secondary objective.
The issue is that uber gets charged from any healing, even at spawn, so it's not a punishment, it's a reward for being the most boring player imaginable.
@Boltscrap it's a reward for staying alive and healing your team mates. it's also incredibly important to help turn the tide in games. both teams have just as much access to it and it's not random or unexpected. there's some pretty simple counter play too.
Hot take, i feel like the powerjack is more annoying/cheezy then the escape plan, because it does fairly similar things but the powerjack is not only more versatile, but when you crit kill someone with it, it heals the pyro, its a bit semantic but i feel like the should be in the same position
I know you said to make this basically a podcast sort of thing but 3:31:51 is such a TF2 interaction I invite everyone to go take another look at it if you didn't already
Here’s an alternative name for his video: we find reasons to hate weapons for three hours and 45 minutes. like I get the first selfies weapons on the list can be really annoying fight against but they literally complained about sticky traps and anything about demo knight Like I know he charges fast, but unless you’re fighting a hybridknight You are fighting a man that is charging that you with a sword in a first person shooter
Nah those tools make up for it being a man with a sword and even without the tools it’s still decent for melee like an eye lander. It’s not just a guy with a sword it’s a guy with a sword plus Shonen anime speed and maneuvering for closing that distance and once they’re on you they’re already shimmying
The other two definitely less so though. Blue is the huge whiner here, getting so annoyed to the point he'll complain about Miniguns as a whole and the Shiv, all while his friends are telling him he's just flat wrong whilst he refuses to listen.
I like the preface you gave that a weapon doesn't need to be unfair or op to still feel bullshit. Dead Ringer is overall worse than stock invis watch but it still makes killing a spy feel like swatting a mosquito
On if the fault of speed and bleed is the bleed weapons or the BFB: It's a matter of design The interact is: the bleed damage from the cleaver and the wrap assassin ticks the boost meeter Is it the cleaver and wrap assassin's fault for DOING DAMAGE? Or is it the fault of the BFB for COUNTING DAMAGE DONE BY ANY WEAPON INSTEAD OF BEING DESIGNED AS "damage done with this weapon fills the boost meter"? The BFB could be different, and the intentional bit of design that causes the interaction is there. The bleed weapons weren't made with the intention of "oh, it'll fill the boost meter of the BFB!", the BFB however was made with the thought of "yep, secondary and melee damage will count!"
Its one of those moments where Valve likely underestimated peoples abilities to find cheese strats lol, it also applies to the Phlog, the Phlog wouldn't be nearly as bad if it only counted its own damage and thats only because of the Scorch Shots existance
@@GleebieDeebie I'd go one step further even and say that the phlog would be by far the worst pyro primary in the game if secondaries couldnt fill the meter. Don't misunderstand me, it already basically is, but it'd be even more behind compared to other flamethrowers.
@@nettalie4435 I just think its design is inherently bad, it encourages the Pyro to just deal chip damage at players, playing it super safe and not helping the team and then randomly popping around a corner and punishing any non-projectile class for simply existing, its not fun, its not good, it makes the Pyros defensive capabilities significantly worse and takes away from the core identity of the class
@@GleebieDeebie oh I'm not saying the design of the phlog is fine just because i argued its the worst flamethrower Its pretty badly designed like you just outlined, but on its own it would just be a flamethrower with built in kritz uber. Without something like the scorch shot itd be way less of a pain in the ass since itd take a long while to build the meter without the risk of just losing all of it, but the underlying design itself would still be flawed due to the exact way it changes how a player approaches pyro Tl;dr: Yes, but worded differently
As a Medic main, I believe the Crusader's Crossbow is 'Completely honest' or 'Very slightly cheesy', being 'Heavily depends on how you use it' as the minimum. Getting hit from across the map is either from the opponent being predictable, read, unlucky, or stationary, and healing your own teammates with it can be tough at times due to your teammates occasionally being unpredictable from your POV at close range (and I swear they made the teammate collision box smaller after they fixed the Iron Bomber's). If you use it as a long range combat tool instead of healing your team, it's pretty cheesy and essentially griefing your team if you constantly miss and refuse to heal them at all. It also lets you heal more overall, which is nice as a medic, and your margin of error being at close-mid range for self defense decreases notibly (though syringe guns aren't exactly good at self defense in the first place). I do wish it wasn't pretty much the only good primary for Medic though :/
@@Saxton_Hoovy _Everything?_ A Scout, Pyro or Heavy that gets the drop on a medic has pretty good odds of smoking him... and the Crusader's Crossbow gives Medic the _least_ ability to fight back and/or survive in the _most_ dangerous situation for him.
@@henryviiifake8244 Every class falls to pieces if someone gets the drop on them. An engineer can kill a heavy if he got the drop on him so can a medic. The crusader crossbow is good a mid to long range due to reverse ramp up, can heal from that range as well and it can do a good chunk of damage when you hit someone from that range. The ranges that crusaders is meh at is close range and at close you might as well just use your melee. So every base the medic needs is covered and covered very well. Compared to syringe guns, they dont anything to help anything as they are too weak to fight effectively and only the overdose has an effect that lets you run away better but only if you have a good bit of uber. So in short , syringe guns dont help medic really at all and the crusaders crossbow pretty much patches any medic specific problem he has.
I gotta say for the market gardener, it is actually surprisingly easy to avoid it. I main trolldier and the amount of times i get tripped up by somebody just walking beneath me or just strafing in one way and moving the other way once i strafe towards their initial direction. In most cases, you will have the time to react to the soldier coming towards you.
Double donking them is awesome too, and 100% can make them back off if you do it a few times, they get spooked if they fly up and have like 50hp left because of the airshot.
Glad to see someone else hates the direct hit. As Engineer, you're punished for moving away from your buildings (you have less than a second to react if your sentry starts taking damage), but it doesn't deal enough damage to counter turtling, so it forces you to squat behind your sentry instead of roaming around with your shotgun. It's worse for dealing with closely packed buildings, but if you're a good engineer you aren't doing that anyway. Edit: The flare gun has a projectile speed of 2000 hu/s, as opposed to the cleaver's 3000 hu/s.
I agree with this, and it also sucks for playing against as other classes, mostly spy and scout, but also pyro. The fact is, I can reflect a DH shot easy enough, but it'll outright strip my HP down to like 30 if I get hit even at non-point blank range.
thats the point of the direct hit tho, to piss off engineers, so it rewards engis for putting their sentries in less predictable spots, so that the sodlier wont have time to react.
I hate the Dead Ringer bc i can cook a Spy to a nice medium well, see him die, but also see a smoke cloud and him running the fuck away. Get back here and let me roast you!
Hey guys, I'm a demo/soldier main and I think the short circuit is completely fine* when at full metal you can shoot 3 balls which depletes your ENTIRE metal supply. if someone peppers one of your buildings from 900 meters away and you repair it, you can only shoot 2 balls. If you build a sentry or dispenser, you can only shoot ONE BALL. Unlike the flamethrower which you can easily spam, the short circuit makes you have to think about when you shoot it. Metal management is one of the most important parts of engineer and the short circuit makes that more difficult. Except for people who use it on the payload cart, those guys can go straight to super-hell.
liberty launcher being anything other than completely honest is hilarious considering it does like 60dmg on a direct and takes minimum one extra rocket to kill anyone assuming you're directing every rocket. doesnt even have any kind of situational damage output increase like air strike's fire rate bonus to make up for it. if you die to a liberty launcher you have died to a soldier deliberately nerfing himself who would've always killed you faster with any other launcher in the game
3:14:15 Jarate is extremely broken all by itself, whereas bushwacka is worthless/hard to use effectively without jarate or with the carbine. Jarate is the one that should go to hell
I can't believe that the dead ringer is ranked worse than the kunai. They're both bad but between the two I find the kunai to be so much more annoying. Shooting a spy right before he stabs a teammate and undoes everything I just did happens to me all the time. I've hit spies with five pills in a row without them dying because they just poked their way through several gibus heavies on two occasions and both of those led to a rage quit because holy fuck dude that's ridiculous. That shit would kill an overhealed heavy. The kunai is probably my most hated weapon in the entire game.
Mention of resist piercing made me think of an idea I'd had before, what if buff banner offered the user ~50% resistance piercing on attacks? It'd probably bring it more in line with the strength of the other banners, giving it a passive benefit to user, while both keeping with the buff banner being offensively focused AND offering a great option against the very much disliked resistance weapons in the game that are notoriously powerful.
1:48:10 I'm sorry but the loose cannon deserves WAY more notoriety. It offers demoman: The biggest primary slot jump potential, knockback, uber stuffing, light-class 1 shots and all it doesn't demand much in return compared to other GLs. It's of course worse at range, has large downtime with priming shots, doesn't do as well against buildings, but a lot of that is alleviated by the existence of stickies. Or it can be paired with shields/sticky jumper to offer high mobility with the powers of a loose cannon.
The Loose cannon is IMO the best primary for a Hybrid Knight, the mobility provided by Cannon jumps allows you to do some absolute BS stuff, but nobody realizes it because it's just a "meme weapon"
@Dalek-br6nu A competent loose cannon demo is a genuine threat, same way a good trolldier is a super fast, very mobile threat who can show up out of nowhere and one shot everyone short of a soldier with a good garden. Memes are dangerous.
As a loose cannon user, I can agree with this 100%. I delete medics with it too, just fire a primed shot and then a non-primed one, by the time he gets donked he gets a roller on his landing spot.
the loose cannon in the hands of a good player is genuinely cancerous to fight against. its one of the weapons i hate the most in the game. if the person misses the double donk youre either gonna fly away (good for you) or youre gonna get pinned against a wall and die (definitely not good for you). even if you dodge the direct hit, the timed explosion is gonna hit you so youre punished even if you dodge which is kinda stupid
I'm kind of surprised that there was no mention of the scorch shot also instantly destroying all sticky bombs inside of it's AOE. Pyro can just shoot it around a corner or at the top of a doorframe and instantly clear it of any stickybombs.
I like how they consider highly specific use cases for weapon placements the whole list and then TheWhat just decides to stop doing that when the Neon Annihilator comes up
Thewhat acts like he has never seen a sapped teleporter before. The reason it's down there is strictly because you can do too much with it. The fact that you even CAN PyBro while Pyrosharking is what makes it cheesy.
Considering this weapon punishes you for being in certain parts of a map while also being able to remove Sappers despite already having a weapon that can do that is plan bs
To be fair on the neon discussion, I use the neon annihilator or backscratcher 90% of the time I play pyro. I use neon in most cases where we have a medic or engie so I can focus on support. I run back scratcher if we don't have either because its good for being a so lo pyro. You can also think a mad milk scout exists and so does the pee jar. If I have a team with the occasional liquid neon is awesome.
I think this is completely level headed. Like, yeah, nobody uses the neon to explicitly PyBro, but the fact that you even CAN use it for that is stupid. Thewhat acts like he's never seen a sapped teleporter before.
I'm late, but I gotta type this after the Thermal Thruster's placement. These guys have never played CTF against this thing. You can carry the intel with the most free mobility in the game. Very Slightly Cheesy for that ALONE.
Right? The issue with the weapon is that you even CAN remove sappers while you're playing pyroshark. His rebuttal is just "NUH-UH" and then proceeds to derail the conversation for minutes on end because nobody agrees with him.
Tomislav should really depend how you use it. Yes you can just sit in a corner like a donkey to rake in free ambush kills, but you can also just use it as a stock minigun that has better range/accuracy. A lot of heavies do actually use it in that way, and putting it in very cheesy kind of discounts that honest application.
quiet ambush kills aren't even cheesy, every class in the game except heavy can do that anyway, why does it matter if he can ambush slightly better with a quieter gun? tomislav is not really cheesy at all, very simple sidegrade.
i fell asleep while listening to this and i had a dream. in the dream the podcast continued but in person and a fist fight breaks out over the righteous bison.
Im hella surprised the Jarate isnt at the bottom, It gives minicrits to everyone, it detects spies both cloaked and disguised extremely easily while making them more vulnerable to damage so they just die, and with the bushwacka it pretty much allows you to one-twoshot everyone at MELEE range as the SNIPER, so is pretty much an get out of jail free card to any sniper who is pubstomping the entire lobby, someone manages to flank him, only for the sniper throw jarate at your direction and insta kill you
there's only one weapon in tf2 that I genuinely think is annoying, that being the backscratcher I swear to god it's so annoying when I try to heal a backscratcher pyro and just go like "welp, I guess I can't do my fucking job now"
I haven't gotten past the Scattergun yet, but I'd personally put the bows as like a tier or two above (as in less cheesy than) the base rifles simply because if you die to a good rifle Sniper, you have to actively account for not being able to access like half of the map, whereas the Huntsman doesn't have such an undertone because it's a shorter range weapon that isn't nearly as capable of shutting down pathways as the rifles are.
The plog always upsets me. I understand that it's not an unbalanced weapon, that the pyro worked for the charge and that it's my own fault for letting an enemy pyro get close to me. But just like Spy, the fact that the interaction with another player is essentially over before it has begun really doesn't spark joy in me.
I love the Vaccinator. When I was new to the game, I was never able to survive long enough to build full uber, so I used the Vaccinator to get at least one bubble (never knew how to switch resistances), and eventually I was forced to learn how to use it. I now love using it because I love the quick reflexes needed, and the kind of rhythm you get into when using it. Yes, it’s strong, but the core design idea of cycling resistances is really fun to me, and I wouldn’t mind the uber resistance percentage being reduced
I hate the Vaccinator on principle but I appreciate you being a reasonable individual who learned and grew as a player and as a person. A reduction to the damage resistance *would* help the weapon be less annoying but there's just a terrible culture around the weapon as a whole right now. It heals too much. You can stack resistances, making it nearly impossible for anyone other than a Demoknight or Enforcer to do substantial damage. The damage resistance is too high. In its current state, it might as well be a Wrangler for people.
I think the huntsman's close range damage is fine becouse unlike other close range options for sniper (bushwacka+jarate) you no longer have the sniper rifle's long range damage making you the most effective in mid-short range just like any other class. It feels like you are actualy fighting him insted of just suddenly dieing to someone from the other side of the map. Yes you can get some undeserved lucky kills by spamming it in choke points or group of people, but thats true with every projectile weapon. I would put it into somewhat dishonest rather than definitely bullshit. It can be fustrating sometimes, but when comparing it to the sniper rifles it feels like its the most balanced weapon in videogame history.
If the Crossbow is the only reason you like Medic...then you shouldn't play Medic. I play Medic, I main Medic. I enjoy support roles on their own. I'm the backbone of the team. I don't need an overhyped hunk of junk to have fun.
Yall are missing the point. They said it was the only reason people play medic because it makes him more fun, not because of the weapon's power. Medic is already the best class in the game, and taking away the crossbow wouldnt change that fact, it would only make him somehow even more boring
I will say as a fellow med main, i can understand how the average playerbase who tends to prefer getting frags would be bored by medic without the crossbow. Both because it's kind of insanely busted if you think about it and because it gives them a more active task that relies on your aim at pretty much all times. Hell, I think it's pretty damn satisfying to use myself and I'm one of the few people who kinda likes and is good at using the needle guns.
All the logic applied to the phlog applies to the eyelander so much more also scorch shot just doesn’t have counter play because it has no range where it’s ineffective whereas almost every other weapon does
@@ketchup901 if the weapon had no bugs i’d understand that but getting hit multiple times and almost getting killed by a single shot at any range is stupid
Beggars bazookas rocket deviation sucks but beggars can’t be choosers
clear but cheesy af
thats genius ngl
The person that created the weapon said that out loud at least once
HOLY SHIT THAT ROCKET DEVIATION IS BECAUSE BEGGARS CANNOT CHOOSE WHERE THE ROCKETS FLY HOW DID I NEVER REALISE
We need the choosers bazooka now
The L'exectuteur would be in not going to heaven tier. The psychological damage from the bleed is too powerful.
🤣🤣 this needa be pinned
I have PTSD from when my great-grandparents slipped and fell in unison down my staircase, and I had to watch them painfully bleed out over 8 seconds. Every time I get hit by L'exectuteur, I curl up into a ball and scream for 6 hours straight, instantly making me useless for the rest of the match. Anyone who uses this cursed weapon is going straight to JAHANNAM.
@@megarigged Every time i take a piss, i am painfully reminded of the L'exectuteur
@@cuppedcupEvery time I take a shower, I get a flashback to when I was shot by the L’Executeur and suffered from the affliction of bleeding for 8 seconds.
Fun fact: The "L'" in "L'executeur" is french for "The".
Finally, the chucklenuts podcast
Hi
Fortnite stream when?
Squeaker voice gets little kids in the replies, who would have thought
@@Mai.Calico “Come on, Great Blue, let’s squad up in the Cybertruck, get some dubs, daddy’s hungry” -TheWhat Show
@@Knarrenheinz1021he did stream shitnite check his live tab and scroll all the way down
my only opinion on this tier list is that you can’t just call the boston basher “ribbed for her pleasure”
true, it could also be ribbed for his pleasure
Can u not? Does it censor it?
That was the best line and the others just ignored or didn't hear it. Tragic.
I love this
What does rhat even means
The enforcer is the cheesiest weapon ever, that thing makes you bleed from any range.
no it doesnt
The bleed for 8 seconds really emotionally damages you so much
yeah it does psychological damage its op
@@handlesrtwitterdontbelivethem yes it does
@@blockoboi5941 enforcer the spy weapon? it doesnt mention bleed
"No one has fallen for a feigned death since 2014"
Mr. TheWhat, my competitive team in Highlander once paused our game because we killed an enemy sniper and saw another one roll out next to him.
Here the teammate disguised as his allied sniper and confused the FUCK out of us when he died and another sniper shows up around the corner.
That's mainly because spies rarely ever use teammate disguises, and for obvious reasons, it's also a matter of most TF2 players in general not knowing you can actually disguise as your own team.
@@spimpsmacker6422that’s all I do. Run into the death choke and die as ally scout to get behind them faster than flank route. Only way to play deadringer imo
@@kurt-o0o I love disguising as a friendly pyro and giving people heart attacks by waiting around corners
@@georgethakur disguises deal psychological damage confirmed
that's so big brained actually, making you think you got the sniper pick and that the sightlines are safe now but NOPE
I genuinely love fighting against the Huntsman. If I see a Huntsman sniper on the other team I switch to Pyro and make it my life's mission to get an arrow reflect kill on them. I know others will disagree but getting that reflect headshot is probably the best feeling in the game. The headshot hitboxes on the Huntsman are genuinely fucking bonkers though, it is a pretty stupid ass weapon, I just love to humiliate the people who use it so it balances out.
Didn't expect to see you here, I know us Sonic fans are autistic but I didn't know the autism type was communal
Oddly enough, i get more arrow reflect kills on other ememies than the huntsman, because most snipers just walk back the corner and the enemy just so happens to rush at that moment.
I find it funny, because it's lucksman for pyro
Hello Cybershell
I genuinely love fighting against the Huntsman. If I see a Huntsman sniper on the other team I'm glad because they aren't using a rifle and I can actually fight back
On the other side of the coin, baiting out reflect attempts and headshotting cocky pyros is one of my favorite things to do as huntsman sniper 😂
Should've been called "What pizza would each TF2 weapon order?"
Whats on an honest pizza?
@@Timepicklesexactly what they ordered
i call the pizza place, and i ask em for a liar's pizza
i have received a lasagna
@@davidthecommentersounds about right
and "you're not going to heaven" is just pineapple pizza
I never thought TheWhatShow would be the voice of reason against Blue having the most dogshit takes imaginable. Holy hell.
I thought that great blue was doing a bit for most of the video honestly
such as?
@@FrankBlaskovich "the minigun is cheese because I can't negate it's damage entirely by dodging"
@@cookiecraze1310 i mean heavy is kinda the easiest class to play
I was wondering why Blue’s takes were so terrible, but then realized he is a pyro main. It all makes sense now.
This video is Watch Blue rank the cheesiest weapon while he ignores 80% of what his friends say.
The power of controlling the list
Is it just me or blu literally always figures out a way to make every single weapon annoying somehow even when it's the most petty shit imaginable
"I can't dodge minigun bullets" yeah that's the whole point of the minigun; to be a big source of damage that you can't escape from
His Heavy bias shows up, like with the Eviction Notice of all weapons
@@hamhelly9115 yeah, like how can you get annoyed at the eviction notice of all things
@@hamhelly9115 Still not as much bias as russian speaking TF community have for heavy. For short, they hate heavy so much, literally as much as english community hates snipers. If you carry the game as heavy, people would deny you a win, taunt you with "go back to *game bad of the day* (usually overwatch, cod and valorant)" and say you took an easy, almost a cheat path to win.
@@ilyakusenco8151 i have neverr actually seen a Russian player shit on Heavy.
Granted, despite being Russian myself, i almost never see Russian players.
We cant be talking cheese without talking about the newly buffed Neon Annihilator
Mildly more cheesey than before. The trade off is that you have to use the gas passer
THEY BUFFED THE GAS PASSER
THEY BUFFED THE NEON THE BASTARDS
your crazy if you think its cheese
Its funny how I see my favorite TF2 creator everywhere.
I love how this video is nonstop trading between the cope, troglodyte, and Greek Philosopher sticks, and you never know who is gonna take what role until they give their take
Sometimes they're all cooking!
Sometimes they're all monkey screaming at the funny boomer shooter gun
ai generated ass comment
And sometimes it's the Neon Annihilator Incident
You did not just call TF2 a boomer shooter...
I know the Direct Hit is balanced but getting removed by a prefired rocket you couldn't see coming pisses me off
That applies to literally every single projectile weapon. Hell, you could argue most people wouldn't be able to consistently hit those with the direct hit nearly as easily as someone using stock due to the splash radius.
You could technically say that with all rockets launchers.
@blueberrimuffin6682 The main difference with most other projectiles is that you can't get insta-gibbed from full health by them, while Direct Hit rockets can one shot light classes.
Of course, the counterpoint to the argument would still always be "positioning," where every step you take closer to the enemy spawn and away from your team's center of mass is a higher risk you take of being on the receiving end of a crazy soldier prefiring into a doorframe off of sheer muscle memory alone, but I can understand the frustration when it does happen for the five dozenth time in a week.
@@christiancinnabars1402I feel for the person who that happens to 60 times in one week
@@tincat2347 It happens to me at least every other time I try to do anything. When I try to get a kill, boom. Soldier. I try to move slightly out of the way of my team, bam, soldier.
But seriously, it happens to me more than I'd like and they were just using hyperbole to make a point which is fine.
Listening to TheWhat talk about the Neon made me question if he remembered that you are still considered wet for a small bit when you walk out of the water. Cause every one of his counter points always revolved around the idea that the pyro was sitting in the water waiting, when in reality some pyros use the neon to get a free crit against people who come out from the water
Or when people are soaked in jarate, mad milk (and now the gas passer), which ALSO counts as the wet status.
TheWhat can complain all he wants, the Neon is technically a more balanced version of the homewrecker.
It doesn't even matter, his point was dumb af. He was told multiple times that he has a one track mind, but he just can not possibly fathom the idea of Pyro seeing a building on the way to the water and breaking a sapper on it. Why doesn't he then talk about how you can't break enemy buildings with homewrecker if you are standing near your engineer's buildings? TheWhat is actually just a lil hater
I will say from the perspective of a medic main, I entirely agree with the Force A Nature hatred. Scouts are already terrifying when you're a medic because they will trade their life for yours, but the FaN makes it so difficult to use your teammates to protect you. A scout lands one hit on you and you're so out of position now, leaving you EXTREMELY vulnerable. It takes one of your strongest counters and makes them counter you even harder
When the scout tunnels you through 8 of your teammates as if he became invisible and then your team crumbles because the medic dies
As a scout i can confirm I love doing this to meds
hard agree, anything that knocks me out of position as a medic is super annoying, doubly so paired with the scout's pure mobility and damage output up close. also speaking as a medic main i find their insistence that nobody would want to play medic [without the crossbow] really funny cause his gameplay loop is super engaging for me
Hard agree. Nothing can ruin my game like a competent FaN Scout. ESPECIALLY when they're hellbent on offing you at their expense.
@@kalel4everrlmfao
I run shortstop/milk/fan scout and I consider myself extremely honest doing it, because I explicitly use it to bully snipers on instant respawn servers.
Not just honest…honorable
@@parkle8690 I'm doing my part!
@@J0hnzie Godspeed soldier.
I dont think that combo is gonna do much if the sniper is good or has a good team, but then again, its instant respawn so you can try again immediately
same for me but thrmal thruster, backburner, third degree
the fucking neon annihilator debate was so funny
I feel like if this was recorded before the gas passer neon big fix, it would've been shorter than it took them to finish the stupid water and building debate
@@shirayukiiiii i think you mean after
There was the talk about it, but the fun part starts at ruclips.net/video/U1-_hwn4a9M/видео.htmlsi=O60v27X4xcBIf5RC&t=5820
Maddening you mean, the entire list is about the cheesiness of things not if they're viable or not. Dude's argument is WHO IS GONNA TAKE THE NEON WHEN YOU COULD JUST TAKE HOMEWRECKER
If there was a Pyro Melee that has 95% reduced damage, and applies bleed for 8 seconds to both your target and self on swing, it'd be a shit Melee. But if it also had infinite range, but only against players whose username starts with "k", and it increases their ping by 50 for the rest of the match, it'd STILL BE SHIT but also cheese as fuck
@@Izunundara I think the most annoying part was how one of them kept trying to imply the sharking and the homewrecking had to be done at the same time. "How often are you in water near buildings being sapped??"
Justice for TheWhat's Neon Take. The fact that blue forgot that the Neon can take zappers out is just plane evidence that isn't something so annoying that you actually remember it
Man was spitting on Bison and Gas Passer to. Their cheese is barely hypothetical, it basically doesn't exist.
They only forgot about because Homewrecker is the main thing associated with that, its just a little extra to an already cheesy weapon
@@PrivateDaisy
20 DPS to everyone in a chokepoint is going to rack up
It can take Sappers out AND Crit anyone who is wet (which includes throwables I think). It's not very good but it is very cheesy
@@TheTrueBatBrain includes milk, jarate, and now gas
Finding any obscure and rare scenario to put a weapon in slightly cheesy is funny to me.
That is the point of very slightly cheesy, however half of the blu takes are ass, especially on the miniguns
@@cookiecraze1310 Nah, his friends have weird takes and I find myself agreeing with Blu before he's even said anything
Easily my favorite part at 3:15:43. The synced "buffed" got me dying
19:53 LMFAO what a dangerous reference to make, it caught me so off guard
I didn’t get it
@@humanharddrive1its reference to a meme where peter griffin goes "you stupid n-word"
@@humanharddrive1 Same, but I think he was doing a Peter Griffin voice
@@humanharddrive1its a meme where peter griffin says hard r
Classic thewhat show with his deep cut meme references.
"FaN is cheesy because I personally don't like it. Soda Popper isn't cheesy because I personally don't mind it"
extremely dumb person for sure
Thats what im saying, and he ignored two other peoples rankings COMPLETELY and just put it on what HE WANTED lmao
Weapon cheese in tf2 has always seemed like a strange case to me
Strange cheese in tf2 has always seemed like a weapon case to me
please stop this
@@billymkj2763 Unusual Strange Festive Cheese in TF2 has allows been a normal case to me
Unusuals in tf2 have always seemed like a weird case to me
mmmm weapon cheese
The neon annihilator section was painful, does bro think the sapper destruction part only happens when you’re in water?
Are you aware that Neon takes 2 hits to break sappers while Homewrecker takes only one?
@@lefthandedscout9923 Why can it do that at all?
@@unoriginal581it doesn’t matter. You never see it. It’s not cheesy. Spy shouldn’t be sapping a sentry if there’s a pyro standing right next to it ajyway
@@HabitualThinker Yes it does matter, we’re not talking about how often you see weapons, just how cheesy they are to play against when they do show up.
And the Neon acts as both an immediate kill some times and an insta-sapper remover at others. It’s not the fact that this happens often, it’s why does it happen at all
@@lefthandedscout9923 the fact that it can destroy sappers at all is annoying and a bit cheese. So is being randomly one shot because you stepped in a puddle 5 seconds ago.
Blue saying this list is more objective than that after having his whole argument about the shiv being "it feels worse" is funny af
I think every weapon would be made more honest if they dealt bleed
boils down to people not liking one shot mechanics no matter how skill based they may be
I don't think it matters if they're skill based or not, TF2 isn't designed the same way as CoD or CSGO. You don't just get to instantly win a fight with raw aim in most cases. You have to use good positioning, good game sense, good movement, ect ect along with good aim, which makes it incredibly frustrating when you use all of those skills only to get one-shot by someone who doesn't really need to use anything besides raw aim.
@@thefusingcookie If a sniper takes me out with a headshot, or I get 180 no-scoped by a Direct Hit/Loch n Load, doesn't that take skill + gamesene to put themselves in the position to get the kill?
Of course, there's nothing fun about getting stomped by someone with great aim, but if the stomping is _purely_ due to skill, there's a limit to just how pissed off I can get, surely?
@@henryviiifake8244The latter is more bearable and impressive because although they're fast moving projectiles, they're still projectiles and most soldiers & demomen shoot it from mid to close range
Sniper's rifle meanwhile is hitscan and has virtually infinite range meaning he can instakill you from across the map without you being able to react
Which majority of players don't like because TF2's combat loop is primarily centered around mid-to-close range, and unlike something like CS2 or COD no other weapon (barring amby which no one uses anymore because valve practically killed it) from other classes can headshot, which is why sometimes the only true counter to a sniper is another sniper
It's still impressive sure, but unlike Direct Hit soldiers and Loch Demos there's no fun in countering or trying to counter them unless you're also a sniper
That's the crux of what all sniper complainers are about, unless he's going huntsman or SMG he's not fun at all to fight
@@henryviiifake8244 yea when i get point blank quickscoped i dont go "ahhh thats bullshit" i say that guys insane, same with getting trickstabbed but peoples ego refuse to accept that a lot of the time, its basically the dunning kruger effect you dont see good players complaining about it very often
@@henryviiifake8244The difference is counterplay, against good snipers the only real counterplay is "don't be seen" which is stupid.
Omg I threw this on to have somthing to listen to while drawing, then when you mention it was basically a podcast it made me acctuly looked at the video length. Was not expecting it to be near four hours, but it works for me XD
20 minutes in, loving how there are 3 of you discussing whether something is cheesy but just one guy gets to overwrite the overall verdict of the rest
On an unrelated note it makes me happy when tf2bers reference each other. Almost like we're a community or something.
I ate a mandarin while I watched this and every piece of the fruit had AT LEAST one pit in it. Would definitely put that orange in 'you will not go to heaven' tier.
have you never eaten a mandarin? it either has no pits or all pits, no inbetween
9239th debunk of "Just pull out your melee"
yes, fight the pocketed overhealed soldier who is firing rockets at you with your melee. you're going to hit him once then instantly die, and he's going to heal that 65 damage back in about 1 second then wipe out half your team
Go for the Medic if possible? Idk, never played but it seems like a good idea
@@Localcourtjester4hire maybe if you random crit him, but his pocket will still annihilate you if you dont kill him instantly
@@Localcourtjester4hireThis is bait.
@@refusingtoconform i'm trying to genuinely answer his question-
The guy above has no insight here. He admitted that you don't play but his advice is STILL "just aim for the Medic."
His argument is just as reductive as "just use your melee."
The issue with the Vaccinator isn't that there ISN'T counterplay. The issue is that it is an UNREASONABLE AMOUNT OF EFFORT to counter the enemy for making a single weapon choice.
Imagine in a different game, say, Call of Duty or Battlefield, you have 3-4 item slots. And you could give up one of these item slots for a -75% damage reduction to ranged damage in exchange for a secondary weapon.
You are TRIPLING the time to kill in RANGED COMBAT for changing a SINGLE LOADOUT slot! You are fundamentally CHANGING THE BALANCE OF THE GAME WITH A SINGLE ITEM.
Now, imagine if you could apply this buff to a teammate as well AND heal them at the same time.
I remember fighting on Embargo yesterday and someone on the enemy team was using Phlog Pyro and Vaccinator Medic. Our team was spawn camped until one of us decided to go Vaccinator Heavy to counter it. I assume those people will be sent to Super Hell after death.
They have EARNED it
Dunking on someone else's analysis with friends: A good time
Analyzing weapons with friends: I want a divorce
The tiers are named like strange weapon ranks
You Will Not Go To Heaven Conniver’s Kunai
I will praise you for putting actual words on the tier and not just the letters that lots of people do. Like that little thing makes the intent of the tier list so much clearer (because what "B" or "C" means is never consistent accross that kind of tier list) so like I wanna encourage that every time I see it.
who are you, blue's alt?
[jokes aside i do appreciate that myself, makes cutoffs between tiers a bit more clear too]
I feel as a spy you don't care if the Pyro is using the neon or homewrecker, it's annoying that your counter is removing your progress even more.
Remember what Jontohil2 says. SPY HAS A GUN
I feel like this take is invalid because as a spy you shouldn’t be anywhere near a pyro if you’re not about to backstab them.
Pyro has a flamethrower, the neon annihilator is not your worst enemy
@@HabitualThinker talking about sapper destruction here. It's annoying regardless of which weapon is doing it so calling the neon less annoying than the homewrecker just because it's worse at it is weird. That's the take.
spy has a gun
@@SamuelTrademarked Spy also has to be near a sentry to sap it... The issue is if you sap it and think "engie is dead, safe to shoot the pyro" you end up dead when he frees the machine from your little sparky box.
The Enforcer is like the Gen 1 Porygon of TF2, is absolutely garbage but is also a counter to some of the strongest weapons in the game.
>"what is tf2's cheesiest weapon?"
>isnt phlog
The scorch shot exists and is infinitely more aids just kill the pyro with no airbast dipstick
@@owenblount7334 ikr no airblast just any good soldier/demo can just kill them by out ranging them, sure a phlog pyro can sneak attack some people and get a crit spree but the na bunch of people know theres a phlogger so they are more aware I Think
@@owenblount7334 scorch shot isnt rly ballenced its a bit op when spammed
A lone phlog pyro has a spy syndrome of immediately dying to soldier or demo after eviscerating 2 of your teammates.
So uhh I think you could blame it on other stuff like vacc med or scorch.
@@billymkj2763 The idea that no-airblast is a massive downside to balance off effectively free full heal and crits depends on the assumption that most players would be getting any use out of the airblast in the first place.
I have to agree with “the nitpicking guy” you can’t be annoyed with the righteous bison 😭🙏
thats easy, everything i use is honest, and everything my opponent uses is dishonest and cheesy.
Genuinely amazed FSOAS didn't fight harder for the scorch shot to go in 'wont see heaven' tier.
that, and letting bushwacka go in wont see heaven, but then jarate is just in BS tier
wild
@@nettalie4435 The Bushwacka has been condemned to hell in order to protect us from the Jarate
Tf2 Players when a weapon does anything but straight damage (but not too much):
I dislike the assignement of stock uber as cheesy. No its not fun to fight, because its a threat of consequence for not completing the secondary objective of dropping the medic. It is a known quantity in almost every match with a large volume of methods of completing that secondary objective.
The issue is that uber gets charged from any healing, even at spawn, so it's not a punishment, it's a reward for being the most boring player imaginable.
@Boltscrap it's a reward for staying alive and healing your team mates. it's also incredibly important to help turn the tide in games. both teams have just as much access to it and it's not random or unexpected. there's some pretty simple counter play too.
Hot take, i feel like the powerjack is more annoying/cheezy then the escape plan, because it does fairly similar things but the powerjack is not only more versatile, but when you crit kill someone with it, it heals the pyro, its a bit semantic but i feel like the should be in the same position
wait the powerjack heals on crit kill? damn never knew that
@@WarTie it doesnt matter if its a crit or not
@@guynamedekzi oh damn
listening to the neon debate was hilarious as a pyro main who uses it 100% of the time.
I think blue trying his hardest to defend the soda popper is so funny man it's GIVING wojak
I know you said to make this basically a podcast sort of thing but 3:31:51 is such a TF2 interaction I invite everyone to go take another look at it if you didn't already
Scorch shot is basically demoman's pipebomb launcher from the "Meet the demoman", but for pyro
“Oh hey another great blue video”
“…Why is it almost FOUR HOURS”
(my thoughts after seeing this video)
Did you notice it's a second channel vid?
@@henrynagel7175 yeah just didn’t care enough to make the distinction tbh
I was hyped I don't know if you'll understand this but I am a jarujaruj viewer so I'm more than willing to watch long vids
Here’s an alternative name for his video: we find reasons to hate weapons for three hours and 45 minutes.
like I get the first selfies weapons on the list can be really annoying fight against but they literally complained about sticky traps and anything about demo knight Like I know he charges fast, but unless you’re fighting a hybridknight You are fighting a man that is charging that you with a sword in a first person shooter
Nah those tools make up for it being a man with a sword and even without the tools it’s still decent for melee like an eye lander. It’s not just a guy with a sword it’s a guy with a sword plus Shonen anime speed and maneuvering for closing that distance and once they’re on you they’re already shimmying
@@DeneuveYT if your at all competent with a pyro or heavy you'll be perfectly fine against the vast majority of demoknights
I mean, yeah, the whole point is finding out which weapons are total bs, what expectations did you have for this video? Total complacency?
These guys are annoyed by almost every single weapon in the game lmao
The other two definitely less so though. Blue is the huge whiner here, getting so annoyed to the point he'll complain about Miniguns as a whole and the Shiv, all while his friends are telling him he's just flat wrong whilst he refuses to listen.
How many weapons in TF2 do you know in your head are completely balanced but you still can't help but feel you got ripped off when you die to them?
I like the preface you gave that a weapon doesn't need to be unfair or op to still feel bullshit. Dead Ringer is overall worse than stock invis watch but it still makes killing a spy feel like swatting a mosquito
the dead ringer is op and bullshit tho, the thing that gives scout speed and free uber every few seconds???
@@provian its hella obvious every time and forces the spy into giving up the actual stealth offered by another watch
On if the fault of speed and bleed is the bleed weapons or the BFB:
It's a matter of design
The interact is: the bleed damage from the cleaver and the wrap assassin ticks the boost meeter
Is it the cleaver and wrap assassin's fault for DOING DAMAGE?
Or is it the fault of the BFB for COUNTING DAMAGE DONE BY ANY WEAPON INSTEAD OF BEING DESIGNED AS "damage done with this weapon fills the boost meter"?
The BFB could be different, and the intentional bit of design that causes the interaction is there. The bleed weapons weren't made with the intention of "oh, it'll fill the boost meter of the BFB!", the BFB however was made with the thought of "yep, secondary and melee damage will count!"
Its one of those moments where Valve likely underestimated peoples abilities to find cheese strats lol, it also applies to the Phlog, the Phlog wouldn't be nearly as bad if it only counted its own damage and thats only because of the Scorch Shots existance
bleed is so annoying
@@GleebieDeebie I'd go one step further even and say that the phlog would be by far the worst pyro primary in the game if secondaries couldnt fill the meter.
Don't misunderstand me, it already basically is, but it'd be even more behind compared to other flamethrowers.
@@nettalie4435 I just think its design is inherently bad, it encourages the Pyro to just deal chip damage at players, playing it super safe and not helping the team and then randomly popping around a corner and punishing any non-projectile class for simply existing, its not fun, its not good, it makes the Pyros defensive capabilities significantly worse and takes away from the core identity of the class
@@GleebieDeebie oh I'm not saying the design of the phlog is fine just because i argued its the worst flamethrower
Its pretty badly designed like you just outlined, but on its own it would just be a flamethrower with built in kritz uber. Without something like the scorch shot itd be way less of a pain in the ass since itd take a long while to build the meter without the risk of just losing all of it, but the underlying design itself would still be flawed due to the exact way it changes how a player approaches pyro
Tl;dr: Yes, but worded differently
As a Medic main, I believe the Crusader's Crossbow is 'Completely honest' or 'Very slightly cheesy', being 'Heavily depends on how you use it' as the minimum. Getting hit from across the map is either from the opponent being predictable, read, unlucky, or stationary, and healing your own teammates with it can be tough at times due to your teammates occasionally being unpredictable from your POV at close range (and I swear they made the teammate collision box smaller after they fixed the Iron Bomber's). If you use it as a long range combat tool instead of healing your team, it's pretty cheesy and essentially griefing your team if you constantly miss and refuse to heal them at all. It also lets you heal more overall, which is nice as a medic, and your margin of error being at close-mid range for self defense decreases notibly (though syringe guns aren't exactly good at self defense in the first place).
I do wish it wasn't pretty much the only good primary for Medic though :/
Least biased Medic Main
Crusaders crossbow should honestly be nerfed. It does everything too good.
@@Saxton_Hoovy _Everything?_ A Scout, Pyro or Heavy that gets the drop on a medic has pretty good odds of smoking him... and the Crusader's Crossbow gives Medic the _least_ ability to fight back and/or survive in the _most_ dangerous situation for him.
@@henryviiifake8244 Every class falls to pieces if someone gets the drop on them. An engineer can kill a heavy if he got the drop on him so can a medic. The crusader crossbow is good a mid to long range due to reverse ramp up, can heal from that range as well and it can do a good chunk of damage when you hit someone from that range. The ranges that crusaders is meh at is close range and at close you might as well just use your melee. So every base the medic needs is covered and covered very well. Compared to syringe guns, they dont anything to help anything as they are too weak to fight effectively and only the overdose has an effect that lets you run away better but only if you have a good bit of uber. So in short , syringe guns dont help medic really at all and the crusaders crossbow pretty much patches any medic specific problem he has.
Tbh, It's really annoying when you are about to take your enemy down but suddenly he got instant 70-100 HP and kill you instead.
I gotta say for the market gardener, it is actually surprisingly easy to avoid it. I main trolldier and the amount of times i get tripped up by somebody just walking beneath me or just strafing in one way and moving the other way once i strafe towards their initial direction. In most cases, you will have the time to react to the soldier coming towards you.
looking up is hard
Double donking them is awesome too, and 100% can make them back off if you do it a few times, they get spooked if they fly up and have like 50hp left because of the airshot.
Same man, I never die to trollidier if I know he’s there
Glad to see someone else hates the direct hit. As Engineer, you're punished for moving away from your buildings (you have less than a second to react if your sentry starts taking damage), but it doesn't deal enough damage to counter turtling, so it forces you to squat behind your sentry instead of roaming around with your shotgun. It's worse for dealing with closely packed buildings, but if you're a good engineer you aren't doing that anyway.
Edit: The flare gun has a projectile speed of 2000 hu/s, as opposed to the cleaver's 3000 hu/s.
Scout can yeet a knife faster than a flaregun shot can fly?
I agree with this, and it also sucks for playing against as other classes, mostly spy and scout, but also pyro. The fact is, I can reflect a DH shot easy enough, but it'll outright strip my HP down to like 30 if I get hit even at non-point blank range.
thats the point of the direct hit tho, to piss off engineers, so it rewards engis for putting their sentries in less predictable spots, so that the sodlier wont have time to react.
As a medic main, the vaccinator is stupid and op and shouldnt exist, i love it.
“If you use the vaccinator your a pedophile” - The What Show
Words to live by😂
I hate the Dead Ringer bc i can cook a Spy to a nice medium well, see him die, but also see a smoke cloud and him running the fuck away. Get back here and let me roast you!
Hey guys, I'm a demo/soldier main and I think the short circuit is completely fine*
when at full metal you can shoot 3 balls which depletes your ENTIRE metal supply. if someone peppers one of your buildings from 900 meters away and you repair it, you can only shoot 2 balls. If you build a sentry or dispenser, you can only shoot ONE BALL. Unlike the flamethrower which you can easily spam, the short circuit makes you have to think about when you shoot it. Metal management is one of the most important parts of engineer and the short circuit makes that more difficult.
Except for people who use it on the payload cart, those guys can go straight to super-hell.
liberty launcher being anything other than completely honest is hilarious considering it does like 60dmg on a direct and takes minimum one extra rocket to kill anyone assuming you're directing every rocket. doesnt even have any kind of situational damage output increase like air strike's fire rate bonus to make up for it. if you die to a liberty launcher you have died to a soldier deliberately nerfing himself who would've always killed you faster with any other launcher in the game
3:14:15 Jarate is extremely broken all by itself, whereas bushwacka is worthless/hard to use effectively without jarate or with the carbine. Jarate is the one that should go to hell
I can't believe that the dead ringer is ranked worse than the kunai. They're both bad but between the two I find the kunai to be so much more annoying. Shooting a spy right before he stabs a teammate and undoes everything I just did happens to me all the time. I've hit spies with five pills in a row without them dying because they just poked their way through several gibus heavies on two occasions and both of those led to a rage quit because holy fuck dude that's ridiculous. That shit would kill an overhealed heavy. The kunai is probably my most hated weapon in the entire game.
oh god the subway surfers gameplay trend has spread to tf2
Mention of resist piercing made me think of an idea I'd had before, what if buff banner offered the user ~50% resistance piercing on attacks? It'd probably bring it more in line with the strength of the other banners, giving it a passive benefit to user, while both keeping with the buff banner being offensively focused AND offering a great option against the very much disliked resistance weapons in the game that are notoriously powerful.
1:48:10 I'm sorry but the loose cannon deserves WAY more notoriety. It offers demoman: The biggest primary slot jump potential, knockback, uber stuffing, light-class 1 shots and all it doesn't demand much in return compared to other GLs. It's of course worse at range, has large downtime with priming shots, doesn't do as well against buildings, but a lot of that is alleviated by the existence of stickies. Or it can be paired with shields/sticky jumper to offer high mobility with the powers of a loose cannon.
The Loose cannon is IMO the best primary for a Hybrid Knight, the mobility provided by Cannon jumps allows you to do some absolute BS stuff, but nobody realizes it because it's just a "meme weapon"
@Dalek-br6nu A competent loose cannon demo is a genuine threat, same way a good trolldier is a super fast, very mobile threat who can show up out of nowhere and one shot everyone short of a soldier with a good garden. Memes are dangerous.
As a loose cannon user, I can agree with this 100%. I delete medics with it too, just fire a primed shot and then a non-primed one, by the time he gets donked he gets a roller on his landing spot.
the loose cannon in the hands of a good player is genuinely cancerous to fight against. its one of the weapons i hate the most in the game. if the person misses the double donk youre either gonna fly away (good for you) or youre gonna get pinned against a wall and die (definitely not good for you). even if you dodge the direct hit, the timed explosion is gonna hit you so youre punished even if you dodge which is kinda stupid
I'm kind of surprised that there was no mention of the scorch shot also instantly destroying all sticky bombs inside of it's AOE. Pyro can just shoot it around a corner or at the top of a doorframe and instantly clear it of any stickybombs.
Would be funny to see how much lower the cleaver and sandman would of ranked if their combo was never nerfed.....
I like how they consider highly specific use cases for weapon placements the whole list and then TheWhat just decides to stop doing that when the Neon Annihilator comes up
Thewhat acts like he has never seen a sapped teleporter before. The reason it's down there is strictly because you can do too much with it. The fact that you even CAN PyBro while Pyrosharking is what makes it cheesy.
Considering this weapon punishes you for being in certain parts of a map while also being able to remove Sappers despite already having a weapon that can do that is plan bs
@@justsomemajor8923 exactly. That’s why the Neon is cheesy. It’d already have a use case if it didn’t destroy sappers. But it does, for some reason.
To be fair on the neon discussion, I use the neon annihilator or backscratcher 90% of the time I play pyro. I use neon in most cases where we have a medic or engie so I can focus on support. I run back scratcher if we don't have either because its good for being a so lo pyro. You can also think a mad milk scout exists and so does the pee jar. If I have a team with the occasional liquid neon is awesome.
I think this is completely level headed. Like, yeah, nobody uses the neon to explicitly PyBro, but the fact that you even CAN use it for that is stupid. Thewhat acts like he's never seen a sapped teleporter before.
I'm late, but I gotta type this after the Thermal Thruster's placement.
These guys have never played CTF against this thing. You can carry the intel with the most free mobility in the game. Very Slightly Cheesy for that ALONE.
The neon debate was so funny. The what seems to think your surgically glued to the water.
Right? The issue with the weapon is that you even CAN remove sappers while you're playing pyroshark. His rebuttal is just "NUH-UH" and then proceeds to derail the conversation for minutes on end because nobody agrees with him.
this is some 10/10 background noise. i love the dynamic between you guys.
Tomislav should really depend how you use it. Yes you can just sit in a corner like a donkey to rake in free ambush kills, but you can also just use it as a stock minigun that has better range/accuracy. A lot of heavies do actually use it in that way, and putting it in very cheesy kind of discounts that honest application.
quiet ambush kills aren't even cheesy, every class in the game except heavy can do that anyway, why does it matter if he can ambush slightly better with a quieter gun? tomislav is not really cheesy at all, very simple sidegrade.
i fell asleep while listening to this and i had a dream. in the dream the podcast continued but in person and a fist fight breaks out over the righteous bison.
Im hella surprised the Jarate isnt at the bottom, It gives minicrits to everyone, it detects spies both cloaked and disguised extremely easily while making them more vulnerable to damage so they just die, and with the bushwacka it pretty much allows you to one-twoshot everyone at MELEE range as the SNIPER, so is pretty much an get out of jail free card to any sniper who is pubstomping the entire lobby, someone manages to flank him, only for the sniper throw jarate at your direction and insta kill you
there's only one weapon in tf2 that I genuinely think is annoying, that being the backscratcher
I swear to god it's so annoying when I try to heal a backscratcher pyro and just go like "welp, I guess I can't do my fucking job now"
Now that's an unique, but absolutely true perspective on a weapon. I would never think about that.
that's how I feel about razorback snipers who spam E. I have a sniper main friend who only uses razorback and it is so fucking annoying
you can always crossbow shot them or abuse the slower heal speed for quicker uber in safer spots
@@calebd3947Someone who understands how to play around the Back Scratcher. Thank you for being the most experienced commenter.
Wait, but because of that you're getting maximum Uber charging because it takes longer to hit the overheal cutoff.
22:00 First time I ever got called a slur was when I used this.
I haven't gotten past the Scattergun yet, but I'd personally put the bows as like a tier or two above (as in less cheesy than) the base rifles simply because if you die to a good rifle Sniper, you have to actively account for not being able to access like half of the map, whereas the Huntsman doesn't have such an undertone because it's a shorter range weapon that isn't nearly as capable of shutting down pathways as the rifles are.
ive never watched a video before that made me so blindingly angry that i had to pause it to calm down at multiple points
You're taking this too damn seriously 😭😭
I was like, "Ho ok, this will be the last video I watch before I go to sleep" (not realizing it 3 freacken hours long).
1:30:50 Ngl, this quote from fish had me dieing. Imagine you're teammate being that bad lmao.
The plog always upsets me. I understand that it's not an unbalanced weapon, that the pyro worked for the charge and that it's my own fault for letting an enemy pyro get close to me. But just like Spy, the fact that the interaction with another player is essentially over before it has begun really doesn't spark joy in me.
NGLa lot of "annoyances" sound like lack of situational awareness or skill issues.
I surfed a rocket on badwater as Medic once. It was close enough to the tunnel that the verticality of it saved me
I love the Vaccinator. When I was new to the game, I was never able to survive long enough to build full uber, so I used the Vaccinator to get at least one bubble (never knew how to switch resistances), and eventually I was forced to learn how to use it. I now love using it because I love the quick reflexes needed, and the kind of rhythm you get into when using it. Yes, it’s strong, but the core design idea of cycling resistances is really fun to me, and I wouldn’t mind the uber resistance percentage being reduced
I hate the Vaccinator on principle but I appreciate you being a reasonable individual who learned and grew as a player and as a person. A reduction to the damage resistance *would* help the weapon be less annoying but there's just a terrible culture around the weapon as a whole right now.
It heals too much.
You can stack resistances, making it nearly impossible for anyone other than a Demoknight or Enforcer to do substantial damage.
The damage resistance is too high.
In its current state, it might as well be a Wrangler for people.
I think the uber charge rate should just be lowered.
@@brandonszpot8948 they should remove uber build during pops so you can't have a 5th and 6th mid fight.
Pedophile
The amount of times I’ve had games ruined by Scorch Shot Pyros is way too many.
I think the huntsman's close range damage is fine becouse unlike other close range options for sniper (bushwacka+jarate) you no longer have the sniper rifle's long range damage making you the most effective in mid-short range just like any other class. It feels like you are actualy fighting him insted of just suddenly dieing to someone from the other side of the map. Yes you can get some undeserved lucky kills by spamming it in choke points or group of people, but thats true with every projectile weapon. I would put it into somewhat dishonest rather than definitely bullshit. It can be fustrating sometimes, but when comparing it to the sniper rifles it feels like its the most balanced weapon in videogame history.
How did it take only 8 minutes in 3+ hour video to bring up the Nuremberg Trials in a TF2 tier list video lol
If the Crossbow is the only reason you like Medic...then you shouldn't play Medic.
I play Medic, I main Medic. I enjoy support roles on their own. I'm the backbone of the team. I don't need an overhyped hunk of junk to have fun.
This is what I've been thinking for so long. Insane seeing someone who thinks the same.
#Facts The Medic's main value is from the Medigun, not the crossbow. The Crossbow is _extremely_ useful, but definitely not a reason to pick medic.
Yall are missing the point. They said it was the only reason people play medic because it makes him more fun, not because of the weapon's power. Medic is already the best class in the game, and taking away the crossbow wouldnt change that fact, it would only make him somehow even more boring
@robotface1635 If medic is boring without the crossbow, then the core design isn't for you. Simple as that.
I will say as a fellow med main, i can understand how the average playerbase who tends to prefer getting frags would be bored by medic without the crossbow.
Both because it's kind of insanely busted if you think about it and because it gives them a more active task that relies on your aim at pretty much all times.
Hell, I think it's pretty damn satisfying to use myself and I'm one of the few people who kinda likes and is good at using the needle guns.
The Boston basher should be in a way lower tier, this is because it is a griefing tool used to steal health packs from your team
I love that fish didn't bring up the new gas passer and nion combo he just made a video about.
It was recorded before probably
@cssib That doesn't change how Entertaining I find going from that video to this one.
The neon annihilator argument where it took so long to explain why it’s annoying when used, raised my bloodpressure.
Hell yeah. I love TF2 and I love having background noise. This is a good format do these I love them.
This talk about the neon annihilator is EXACTLY WHY I made Thewhat sign my collector's neon annihilator
All the logic applied to the phlog applies to the eyelander so much more also scorch shot just doesn’t have counter play because it has no range where it’s ineffective whereas almost every other weapon does
Scorch shot kinda sucks. It's just the detonator but you can't jump. It's good for charging phlog but not much else.
@@ketchup901 if the weapon had no bugs i’d understand that but getting hit multiple times and almost getting killed by a single shot at any range is stupid
Me and Great Blue are now spiritual brothers in our mutual hatred of the Direct Hit.