At points, yes. But to be fair, there are some good ideas here. I find the ideas that are objectively buffs but don't actually fix the problem more baffling, personally.
I feel that there are some nice ideas here, but they get overshadowed by the more ridiculous concepts and the weird inconsistencies between the script and the actual changes.
It also didn't account for the fact WHY certain weapons are the way they were. For example, Vitasaw (before the organ system): it used to be very unfair because if 1 medic uses it, the other has to, otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage when they die.
I think a huge problem with the original video is that he called it rebalances but his intent was seemingly just ideas he had for fun...which are not the same
It's not just that. there are a lot of comments throughout the video that contribute to frustration of the original video. He did tone that down in the follow-up, so I think he realized that as well.
Honestly speaking if valve did decide to give all sniper rifles tracers then 100% the Sydney sleeper should be the exception. Because its weak and because you cant tracer a dart
Sydney Sleeper is banned in comp 6s because the ability to coat jarate, a very strong debuff from distance, makes medics now die even faster without the sniper needing skills to land a headshot.
As i had unpopular comment under original video, bleed can very potentially replace melee random crit 1 shot kill that is. Maybe roll them the same way, but instead of gamble 1 shot a dying wish tainted murder seems more appropriate
Going to take notes again but for sniper. The ammo penalty was definitely needed for this class. In casual tf2 a good sniper can lock down an entire choke point for ages with his 25 reserve ammo. Not to mention sniper is also where the engineer is so he gets infinite ammo already from dispensers. This already known that causally nobody communicates (thx valve cause all the f2p still cant call for medic) but sniper is very hard to counter without another sniper. Spy is the only class that can somewhat get to sniper without having to sacrifice much but that is also a spy making sure they dont get spotted, actually kill the sniper, and then hope they can get out alive before the snipers team looks around. Every other class has to do way too much to kill a class that can 1 shot instant kill 5 out of the 9 classes. Whats stopping a sniper from camping near a sentry to just deny every class other than another sniper? 12 reserve ammo is more than enough to lock down a choke point but also allows breathing room. Down time on sniper is a great nerf that makes it where he is vulnerable but can still can use his team as a meat shield but also allow the other team to play the game.
Yes indeed, sniper's burst fire natural and exclusiveness to ramp up buts him in a unique place. Each ammo start from 50 damage with charge system for a 3x multiplier (150) then another 3x mechanical head shot multiplier (450) Potential of spilling 450x25=11250 across the map without resupply is absurd
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 the ammo nerf forces the sniper to be in very predictable spots more often than not. If you know where a ammo pack is or the engie has a dispenser near the back instead of higher traffic areas
@@Aegisdex hes already in very predictable spots, the actual problem is that you cant do much about him being in said predictable spot, as the reason why hes there so often is because that spot is really really good. i can tell you by memory every place a sniper can be on upward, you go play a match and hell be there guaranteed. most of sniper hate stems from payloads overwhelming popularity, and payload maps are built around a track so they tend to be very very long, thus creating huge sightlines. you dont see anyone complaining about sightlines on a map like steel because its very condensed and doesnt have unreasonably huge fighting areas basically, all the payload maps you love have horrid sightlines. upward, badwater, borneo, swiftwater, pier
6:51 Honestly, as someone whose favourite class is Heavy, as much as I wholeheartedly agree that people who propose that a speed buff rework for the Natasha are missing the point... I also have to point out that the uses that you listed are exactly what people hated about the gun right now.
Back then you can completely negate the slow debuff from it by spamming A+D (side stepping basically), but when Valve tried to remove the stun from the Sandman, they broke the Natasha, so now people are feeling the full effect of the Natasha. Just a little bit of TF2 lore I wanna share.
Vacc defo needs to be nerfed or reworked and bringing up fucking melee damage as a counterpoint is ridiculous which just leaves unpleasant whiplash since most other comments you make are quite reasonable
I think it’d be cool if the Sharpened Volcano Fragment had fire resistance and did more damage while you’re taking fire damage, with a lingering effect for a few seconds after the damage stops. A tool for the Pyro vs Pyro matchup if you wanna keep a flare gun but also a weapon that’d pair with detonator jumping as a combat opener.
I, personally, _love_ long-form content, such as Blue's 2:27:27 reaction, your 1:29:13 analysis, etc. I like this because I love listening to people talk about a subject related to what I'm doing, so I'll play videos just like this when I'm in Hammer++ working on maps and gamemodes, when I'm not playing with friends, etc. _This is probably because I'm autistic and TF2 is my favorite video game, but much love nonetheless!_
8:00 This is a surprise to me. Grouch was NOT the first person to suggest inverting the Natascha (from slowing down enemies to speeding up the user), it was actually a very popular suggestion among several content creators. So it's a bit of a shock to have it finally tested out and discover that it just isn't healthy or balanced
I do have to put notes on the natasha, the dmg penalty really means nothing on it as you can close the distance on your enemies rather than having to poke corners. Heavy is still the highest dps in the game wnd even at midrange will chew through players even with a 30% dmg penalty. Playing on the server you really felt the movement increase not only helped you dodge players but get ramp up much faster and even chase players trying to escape. The only thing thats bad about it now is the while active health drain. The rev speed is fine since you dont want a fast rev and fast movement speed heavy bullying you. If the health drain was while reved instead of while active it would be much more fun to play with and allows it to be its own thing risking your tankiness for speed. Comp players on the video mostly said that it having no speed penalty was actually broken so yeah it was very overpowered before the nerfs
I propose it follow the similar design at that point which is baby-face blaster. Retaliate reduced heavy's gained speed while he earned it back with damage delt positive feedback is a much proper drawback
Providing you tools to prevent taking damage, then making you take damage sounds kinda odd. Especially in the context of the weapon being used in active combat.
- I actually like the chocolate bar rework but it shouldn’t replace the current version. Would be nicer as a new weapon. Would also need some number tweaks - I think the cleaners carbine change is near perfect due to the synergy it has with the mini crit stat, as well as the fun factor of turning your SMG into an assault rifle temporarily.
The Classic and Sidney Sleeper being the only rifles without tracers would actually be a pretty solid change to Sniper. Especially if it was Classic tracers instead of full tracers that are on the other guns.
I really hope to see you do more TF2 videos, one of my favourite things about you is how interesting you are to listen to and how knowledgeable you are when talking about dead rising and even this video! Also kudos to you for not hating on Grouch, by acknowledging how he's taken this criticism politely and constructively and to be nice to him. I like that.
I find it funny that he didnt even spare The Classic from the sniper rifle nerfs. Wouldn't it make perfect sense for the already bad weapon to not get changes? The classic is already meant to be a callback to the old sniper. Why not have it be the one exempt from these changes instead of the heatmaker?
Because everyone who tried to use it and even the community gaslit others saying it's very good. It created a Mandela effect on the weapon, and people who don't play Sniper would believe is real. Kinda like how if you tell a non-TF2 player that the Mad Cap is an actual class or cosmetic/weapon, they would probably believe it.
If they officially give the sniper rifles tracers I'd rather they be proper bullet tracer bolts and not the Machina laser tracer that way you actually have to use your brain to triangulate where the sniper is.
Grouch says that heavy doesn't have a "true" subclass and then says engi has battle engi which isn't a "true" subclass either technically also as a sniper main who enjoys the classic grouch should have give it silent shot along with the Sydney sleeper instead of the hitmans heartmaker(I just wanted to say I'm not the best sniper and thus adding tracers to every rifle would feel insanely hard to play as now newer players will have an impossible time playing the game). Grouch is also just being rude to people who enjoy the caber by saying "caber users are not normal sane people" Grouch also changes weapons he finds boring which is a flawed view point and should not be the way you rebalance anything in a game With the diamond back why can't spy have a power gun because yes I understand that the diamond back is annoying to fight against but it doesn't make sense that the diamond back shouldn't be a good gun and instead it should be pretty gimmicky and not very good gun
While there are poor ideas suggested in his original video, the impression I got is that some people's reaction were overblown. It's good to see folks criticizing without making things personal. A well done reply video :).
I mean, i liked some of his reworks, like his sniper one, but he then does... Asinine decisions like, "hey, snipers are too oppressive and i made a change for them that brings them in line? Well, danger shield that turns sniper into scout and a frog, heatmaker is basically a base game sniper, and cozy camper gives you 40 ammo." And of course, the infamous... "Enforcer".
@@Scout-Fanfiction thank you, and also, i do agree. Some people just started hating on the guy instead of any actual criticism, like the bog standard "oooo that idea stupid."
The enforcer rework was actually really strong, I tried his server and every spy was using it. You don't need to hard fan, you can just time your shots to have a faster firing stock with similar damage. You do lose a bit of your range but for gunspy it's rather strong.
The crazy part of his favorite wrench being the sh is that he constantly complains about boring weapons and plays with the most boring wrench? I feel like theres a joke about it doing bleed damage in here
His mini gun changes really get under my skin , I'm a 900 hour heavy main and I can tell you heavy doesn't have a bad mini gun they just require a diffrent mindset and playstyle Support with natasha Aggressive or ambush with the heater Hyper defensive with the beast
Check the Description for a whole bunch of information. Made sure to include chapters for those who have already seen his video. The Eureka Effect was left out since he decided the idea was bad in the follow-up, and it as connected to a section like the Machina was. I'll update this comment as needed.
the thing about his sniper nerf, is that he doesn't really fix the problem which is that sniper is just not fun to fight against. he does punish players for messing a shot but the change doesn't fix sniper, he is still just annoying and not fun to fight against.
I really like your breakdown on the Natasha. It was way worse than I thought it'd be. The only time I even considered the damage penalty was in passing. I didn't even think of the spin up time
The funniest thing about the Huo Long heater rebalance is the ONLY thing you have to do to make the weapon decent is make the ring togglable like BWR does yes while its still situational its MUCH better also i feel like the SVF was designed with medieval the sole idea in mind yeah in a mode where everyone is locked to either melee or a few specific weapons its.... fine not the best weapon not the worst
7:35 I think its more of the fact that he's heard so many complaints about people DESPISING slowdown in TF2's fast paced movement game. So he got rid of it and made heavy faster which I think is fine, I specifically hate using Natascha because of the slowdown, I feel like an ass using it. His next video's rebalance is downright atrocious. I feel like a buff the Brass Beast could use is a knockback resistance when active, it's supposed to be his heaviest mini gun I feel like it should act like one. OR just make the downsides less worse by making both go to 40% instead of 50% spin up and 60% slower movement, that way their not AS bad as people say they are but still have those downsides be noticeable. The best thing we can do for the Huo Long Heater is to make the 10% damage penalty ONLY affect non burning targets so that way when they are on fire the 25% damage bonus isn't partially negated because of the downside. While I don't have issues with the ammo drain cause I've gotten used to it there are other players who can't watch their ammo so maybe reduce it to 3 ammo drain.
tf2s not a fast paced movement game and the natascha isnt particularly annoying to fight. the real problem with it is that its a useless counterintuitive crutch the huolong is such a boring weapon, the 1 new thing it has and its something heavy cant even utilize. shouldve been a firework launcher like intended
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "tf2 not fast paced movement game" I think you and I aren't playing the same game. There's a reason why there's more scout, soldier, and demoman mains than heavy mains in the game. Scout's fast running, Soldier with rocket jumps, Demoman with sticky jumping.
I like to believe that the videogames used as background footage have a direct relationship to what is being talked about. I just can't really get it out of my head that Scout segment is hell, and the final segment is Buckshot Roulette after all the madness. Even if the connection is tenuous.
You are correct that the gameplay wasn't random. Although the connections with Scout and Medic aren't quite right. Care to guess why I used the gameplay I did? I'm curious what your guesses are.
The thing I’ll say about the L’Executeur is that I’d rather not let the sniper be able to get any kills at all because he’s been sent back to respawn over feeling slightly depressed because he’s been mildly inconvenienced.
Every time I thought I had seen the maximum extent of Grouch's dumbass balance changes, the guy managed to one up his own lunacy with every additional weapon change. Truly a remarkable feat.
The main thing with the Kunai + Diamondback is that, yes, in a match with completely competent teammates their flaws come out in full force and actually act to balance the weapons (which is why the Kunai remains unbanned in all competitive formats, though the Diamondback is 6 feet under in both 6v6 and Highlander), but even a single sub-competent teammate can be taken advantage of to completely negate those drawbacks for no fault of your own. This is where most of the ire against those weapons come in, and why so many pub stomping rampages are noted compared to the Spy being put in a perpetual spawn timer on an Uncletopia server. Because if little Timmy running around with an unusual bought with his dad's disposable income and his back faced towards the enemy at all times gets Kunai'd, then suddenly you're left to disengage with the enemy's frontline and now have to deal with a Spy possessing 4x the overheal that can be given by a Medigun (or ~12% more than the max possible overheal compared to Stock Spy) and a free long range 102 damage chunker while retaining all of Stock Spy's capabilities. And if you take him down to half or less, but little Tommy isn't paying attention while shooting at the enemy half a map away with his minigun, then suddenly you have to fight pretty much a whole 'nother Spy who, again, still has access to all of Stock Spy's tools. For other snowball weapons like the Eyelander, the Bazaar Bargain, the Air Strike, the Frontier Justice, etc, there is still the element of punishing you for your teammate's mistakes in them as well, but even if little Timmy and Tommy get a 0:15 K:D ratio against them, there are still other elements that keep them in check compared to stock. The Eyelander and Bazaar Bargin have to get two kills in without dying to cover for their lower Health/charge rate, and the Air Strike and the Frontier Justice have to _always_ sacrifice a good chunk of damage/splash radius or clip size, respectively. So for the Kunai and Diamondback, they _should_ be changed if not just to cause less strife between teammates, but so many balance ideas just push the idea of further reducing max HP or damage inflicted when that is a lost cause. You end up with something that is either _still_ better than stock after using an incompetent teammate as fodder, or something _almost entirely_ worse than stock no matter the scenario. Or in Grouch's case, they just completely revamp the weapon, which isn't historically unprecedented for TF2, but it leaves their previous niche completely void when it _could_ work with just a bit of tweaking. A cut to cloak duration or a penalty to sapper damage are all it takes for the Diamondback and Kunai to feel like proper sidegrades even when they are used to pubstomp on an "immortal" Spy loadout.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video during the snier section, rebalancing a weapon based on the player base's skill is a very tricky subject. I personally vote for leaving them as is for now.
Tired of this punished by your incompetence team argument. As if you supposed to not punished by lesser team in a team game. Every other thing in game can capitalise on various degrees, just that kunai does in a away you aware off. Guess what little Timmy also fed comp head random crit chance without you noticing, let alone a 0/15 KD already disabled your team's functionality by every player "falls easily to trickstab"
diamondbacks banned in 6s because they say spy cant get more than 1 kill and then get angry when he actually does get more than 1 kill with the help of crits why do you bring up the bazaar bargain, unlike every other snowball weapon, even the diamondback, it has no downside in the right hands. its the dumbest snowball weapon of them all
(Force-A-Nature) Fires 50% faster 20% more pellets per shot Right click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage and doing 40% knockback to enemies and 40% self-knockback while airborne. Each individual shot does 20% knockback to enemies and 20% self-knockback while airborn. 65 damage at close range 30 damage at mid range 10 damage at long range Fires two shots (Shortstop) The shortstop is now a sidearm instead of a primary Fires bullets instead of pellets Fires 45% faster Right click to shove enemies away, causing 20% knockback and does no damage Mini-crits on headshot at close range 50 damage at close range 40 damage at mid range 20 damage at long range Fires four shots (Soda Popper) Each hit fills 10% your HYPE meter. Once fully charged, press the mouse wheel to activate HYPE, granting you 60% faster attack speed on all of your weapons, 40% faster reload speed, 30% faster weapon switching, 50% faster running speed, and it will only last 10 seconds. Right click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage. 60 damage at close range 30 damage at mid range 10 damage at long range Fires two shots (Baby Face's Blaster) Fires 8 shots Running speed increases with each kill (just like the Eyelander) maximum kills: 4 30 damage at close range 20 damage at mid range 10 damage at long range You lose all of your speed if you die, get hit by jarate, mad milk, the gas passer, or get stunned by the Sandman. (Back Scatter) Shooting enemies in the back at close range does mini crits Fires 10 shots 20% more accurate 30 damage at close range 20 damage at mid range 10 damage at long range (Bonk Atomic Punch) Grants you invulnerability for 10 seconds Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off Immune to all damage, debuffs, and knockback You cannot attack, capture control points, or pick up the intelligence while invulnerable. If you take damage while drinking Bonk, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge. You cannot drink Bonk while covered in jarate, mad milk, or the gas passer Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet (Crit-a-Cola) Gives you mini-crits for 10 seconds, but you will be restricted to your melee weapon (just like the Buffalo Steak Sandvich) Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off If you take damage while drinking Crit-a-Cola, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge. You cannot drink Crit-a-Cola while cover in jarate, mad milk or the gas passer Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet (Mad Milk) Enemies will be covered in mad milk for 10 seconds Recharges for 20 seconds 10 health per hit on enemies covered in mad milk(afterburn damage also counts) Enemies killed while covered in mad milk will replenish 50% of your meter Extinguishing a teammate will replenish 90% of your meter Can be replenish at the resupply cabinet (winger) 15% more accurate Mini-crits while airborne Jump height increases with each kill Maximum kills: 4 50% less fall damage Fires 6 shots 20 damage at close range 15 damage at mid range 10 damage at long range (Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol) Gain 10 health on hit Fires 6 shots 25 damage at close range 20 damage at mid range 15 damage at long range (Flying Guillotine) On hit causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds Recharges for 20 seconds Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit Can be picked back up if you did not hit an enemy Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet (Sandman) Right click to launch baseball Hitting enemies in the body will slow them down for 10 seconds Hitting enemies in the head will stun them for 3 seconds Can be picked up after being launched Can be replenished at resupply cabinet Ball recharges for 20 seconds (Candy Cane) Drops a small health pack if you melee kill a spy, sniper, scout, or medic Drops a medium health pack if you melee kill an engineer, demoman, pyro, or soldier Drops a large health pack if you melee kill a heavy 20% faster swing speed (Boston Basher) On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds On miss: marked for death for 10 seconds (Sun-on-a-Stick) On hit: sets enemies on fire Afterburn last 10 seconds 30% fire resistance while active (Fan O War) On hit: marks enemies for death for 15 seconds(no longer marks one enemy at a time) 50% less damage (Atomizer) On hit: fills 10% of your meter which can give you infinite air jumps for 10 seconds right click to activate ability Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit (Wrap Assassin) 50% less damage Right click to launch ornament On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds Recharges for 20 seconds Shatters on impact against surfaces and enemies Cannot be picked up after being launched Can be replenished at resupply cabinet
How to make the sharpened volcano fragment good and fun. Make it a throwable axe that does 50 base damage plus afterburner. And minicrits burning targets. It has a 7 second cooldown. It'll free up the panic attack more to have a heavy hitting sudo flare. Panic attack degreaser combo’s with a big punchy axe throw sounds awesome!
"The Huo-long's gimmick doesn't work because it requires you to coordinate with your Pyro, so I increased its damage at mid and long range where your ring of fire can't ignite enemies and reduced its base damage even further to compensate" is such a bizarre balance non-sequitur for me and completely set the tone for the rest of the video. The Huo-long is already situational, it's basically only useful for guarding Engi nests and pushing payload, because dispenser or cart ammo regen completely negates the ammo cost for the ring. It does need better accuracy, or reduced spin-up or to apply fire after a certain number of hits or something else to make it a worthwhile pick, but I still enjoy using it to push cart for its novelty. But I'd love to have a faster Dalokohs (as the Fishcake). Its niche is in counteracting the GRU or Eviction Notice health drain due to its temporary +50 max health, so being able to eat it faster would be a big improvement. Also, the easiest way to make the "if you equip a lunchbox item you can equip a shotgun" happen imo is if you made the lunchbox items equippable as primaries, replacing the minigun instead of the shotgun. Last comment, I think the best way to rebalance sniper is to make all headshots do minicrits instead of crits, the way the Sydney Sleeper does, unless fully charged. That way Sniper can still do effective damage at range without being able to instantly kill almost half the roster a moment after seeing them, while still preserving the ability of Sniper to remove overhealed Heavies, Soldiers, Demos and Pyros.
the huolong isnt situational there is no situation in which it is good. no, its not good on the cart either, because the cart cant help you shake off that permanent 10% damage penalty >dalokohs should be faster no, that makes it a brainless crutch, practically an overwatch ability. the only problem it has is its pathetic healing, 350 health is no good if you cant even get to max health >sniper minicrit headshots oh my god shitters need to pipe down and stop talking about sniper
Good vid so far I just wanted to say that while I agree completely with the criticisms with the Hitman's Heatmaker rework I wanted to say that the reason why it was probably chosen to be the sneaky one without tracers was probably because of it having a silencer in the design of the weapon, I agree 100% with everything I just thought it was worth pointing out
This is gonna be the biggest IMO I’ll ever drop: If more tf2 players played the first two pvz shooter games then we wouldn’t be grasping at straws trying to ether justify the sniper’s current state or trying to find a proper solution to how annoyingly oppressive the sniper is without straight up removing him or any of his unlocks. Then again the pvz shooter games are by no means saints in terms of balance, and their snipers are no exception, even if it’s because their abilities are what make them annoying to fight against instead of their primary weapon. Although I think the cactus’s primary is more appropriate to translate than captain deadbeard’s primary because captain deadbeard’s primary acts like a low damage semi auto shotgun when not scoped in because the concept of having multiple weapons to switch between is a foreign one to the pvz shooters (so much so, that you have to be specific classes, or “heroes” as the pvz shooters call their classes, in order to even have an option to melee and for 2 of the 4 classes it’s their primary or sometimes only form of damage output besides… *the abilities…* ).
I just wanted to comment that we had the same train of thought towards Fat scout, tough I originally thought of just making lunchboxes available on the primary slot similar to how the Demoman can use the base jumper, in any of the cases, if it also implemented the idea of removing the damage penalty from the steak and make it not lock you to melee, it could then work for the fatscout playstyle
22:25 i think that if one or two snipers is stopping twelve people from making meaningful progress on the objective, that NEEDS to be temporary, if not impossible.
Well this was... I'll be honest, I don't know much about TF2, specifically the gameplay, I know stuff like some of the lore and the memes, but I've not played the game itself, so a lot of this went a bit over my head. But game balance is a good thing to talk about, especially because it's not easy to do, and as someone wanting to make his own games, it is a thing I need to learn. I can also appreciate the games being shown for background footage kinda fitting with the class being talked about currently One neat example of game balance that I like is the nerf to Dan in Street Fighter 5 that got rid of his infinite, specifically a change to his Gadoken move, quote, "Gadoken has been modified to have a random chance of activating an enhanced version of the attack" "The enhanced version has a longer range than the normal version. It can knock down opponents and create chances for follow-ups when it hits, and when the opponent guards, Dan has the advantage" basically making a change that still lets Dan do his infinite as a loop but stops him from doing it the whole match if he can, by knocking down the opponent. It's a nerf that doesn't totally change the use of Gadoken, but rather prevent something that could happen, and be rather annoying; Not a full nerf or overhaul of Gadoken, but still something that keeps Dan in check. And considering Dan is kind of a joke character, especially in the earlier Street Fighter games, it also fits with his personality, since it's kinda like him doing something right by accident, I could easily see Dan going, "Uhh... I meant to do that!" after he pulls it off.
So, his vitasaw change Played in his server, and it has rhe exact same issues he said the Kunai had. Medics now can tank more than they should, giving the class who can go invulnerable or give guaranteed crits for 8 seconds too much tankiness. I agree the Vitasaw needed change, but Medics getting that tanky is just unfun
That one was quite a miss. It could really be middle ground of what it used to be . Passive kept up to 20% uber, on hit doubles (40%) for short duration like 5sec, and the 140hp is fair
Man I fuckin hate sniper but even I think these nerfs/reworks really just missed the mark. I dont want to sit here and play armchair dev so the only change I would suggest is just have reverse damage falloff for his primaries. It retains what he is already good at (long range picks) but forces him to use his melee or SMG in a close range encounter like intended.
To be honest one thing that could help greatily is just, a "Sniper!" quick callout just like the Spy one so at least once you know there's a sniper around the corner and survived for once you can warn whoever else is with you to not temp their fate.
As you mentioned many times through out one of the biggest problems grouch made is completely scraping what is there already with concept totally unrelated. The things being, some does have potential or interesting. But what give him right to sentence options doesn't shine in his eye to oblivious out right? Enforcer's replacement both had development going for them with a little adjust to go, but why are you devaluating the fine pierce tool ?
There are *some good ideas. I do think the Eureka Effect having 2 way teleporters could be a good concept but I think that it was a bit too harsh on the penalties. I'd rework it into making it an actual utility item where the Wrench only does like 20-30 damage with no random crits and make it to where the only way to use the special action it can do is if both teleporters are up instead of just the exit with the ability to still go back to spawn if need be.
to that kunai part: it sucks, the knife sucks, it's weak, it's brast beast kind of trap. all it takes to counter is a single pyro, and it doesn't matter how good as a spy you are nor how many sweatlord spies there are on your team, nor how bad the enemy team is. one pyro DOMINATES a kunai spy to an absurd extend. how do I know? I made a losing team win against 3 spy mains with the kunai+dead ringer+amby/DB set equipped, as a pyro, and a demo main (altho that really just shows you how absurdly unfair the spy vs. pyro match-up is, rather than anything else). also, yeah, the vid sucks, and the moronic hatred against iron bomber is ludicrous, cuz I mainly play with it and it's COMPLETELY different to stock. but play the class, and not many are masochists and alcoholics. ok, I got triggered by sb attacking my baby.
I like how long it is. It gives them plenty of time to say exactly what they need to say. There isnt anything thats drawn out, or unnecessary, all of it is important to getting the points across.
Darwin is the one weapon deserved replaced completely (arguably most backpack secondary too). But, if were to elaborate on this jumpy i have suggestion. The same jump ability requires resource to initiate. Taken 65 damage enable 1 jump, can stored up to 150 disposable. This make it so encourages sniper to act closer to frontline and taking risk (damaged), then reward for mobility option responsibly. While a dominating sniper couldn't abuse position again avenging sniper fail to lay a hand on, sitting comfortably far behind also won't do anything.
"sorry for the time investment this video asks of you" bold of you to assume i don't want a very long and interesting video to play on my second monitor while i draw
Game designer here. I haven't watched Grouch's video and probably will not finish yours, but, RE: Huo-Long Heater. It makes a lot of sense to make it worse without pyro and better with one? To make both upsides and downsides more prominent is a classic design technique to give an option a defined niche, in this case, a weapon you use when you are on call with a pyro player. Whether stock damage + no falloff is sufficient to accomplish that is debatable, but it is a step in a good direction. The same goes for Brass Beast. It makes sense to make a "sentry gun" to be better at sentry gunning instead of trying to make it faster. I agree that extra ammo would probably not be sufficient, but it probably allows more flexibility with positioning at cheeky spots instead of being superglued to a dispenser.
Thanks for responding - it's always cool to talk to a game designer. but the issue is that those two weapons are TOO niche, especially the Hou-Long Heater. His "buff" to the heater makes it ONLY good at comboing with a Pyro, when it needs use beyond that. For example, if he just added a single change where it gets the Tomisolv's faster rev-up, it also becomes a better ambush minigun and helps mitigate the ammo consumption of the ring of fire. But that lower damage against non-burning targets would encourage the player to be more of an ambush Heavy instead of just stalking a Pyro.
@@JakeJakers I don't think it's a realistic problem, honestly. Pyro is a very popular class, and while maybe my perception is skewed by Uncletopia's class limits, I don't think I've been in any matches without a single pyro, and generally pyros and heavies tend to be within line sight of each other so it's not like either will have to go out of their way to make such version of Huo-Long Heater work. I can easily imagine how in a defence scenario a pyro can enable a distant heavy to put serious pressure on the enemy. On, say, Snakewater last heavy can defend right, and have a pyro hanging around shutter (or vice versa). Generally, the main problem with miniguns is that they are same-y, with neither their downsides nor upsides demanding much change in play style, and forced cooperation sounds like something that will make players to play differently than with stock. Is it perfect? Probably no. Your suggestions of either giving it tighter spread or faster rev up time are undeniably sound, but I think the core idea is a step the right direction. Ultimately it's all navel gazing, the game will never receive balance updates anyway, and it's much more useful to think abstractly rather than getting bogged down in specifics.
@@AliceLoverdrive Oh, my issue isn't the LACK of pyro. It's that a Pyro often doesn't need much help. The you describe would work with Grouch's version, but I'd rather not have weapons, especially primary weapons, be THAT situational in the first place. Which is where I take issue with the rebalance video - calling something a buff while making the very issue worse. And I think there's value in the Naval gazing from simply encouraging critical thinking in the first place. plus, it's pretty fun.
I will be one of pleased to see what your able to make in rebalance, as a critic you had been. Curious being would you focus on "your" personal vision, or were you interested to heard some input?
You replied to almost every single comment and none of them are readable. This feels like mashing the autosuggested words your phone keyboard gives you.
ok i wanted to do a full review because the first time i saw this i acted rashly gonna do it here where i can get extra feedback. (i'm not gonna be very specific though, similar to grouch) and will attempt to change his ideas to better balance them out, not every weapon is salvageable though, i will mention them when they come. heavy primaries: (this is gonna be a chain of comments where each comment will focus on a slot or character) Natasha: good concept, terrible execution, when it comes to TF2 speed is king it must always come with the reduction to either health or damage, something that Grouch missed with this weapon but got with both the buffalos stake and the Darwin's danger shield, but i think part of it is because the Natasha already had a damage nerf (as weak as it really is because the type of weapon Natasha is) my change for the weapon is to remove the damage penalty at the cost of a much harsher damage fall off and a 50 max health reduction, allowing the Natasha to specialize in specifically close range combat and big ambushes where you shove yourself onto the enemy, the extra speed will allow you to remain in close range for longer securing more kills then usual from the worse fall off while the max health reduction will allow you to be stopped easier. in the case the weapon is still overpowered i would consider reducing your speed when revved up to be less oppressive in the chase (but not back to the old rev speed just slightly slower) or give the Natasha a wider spread of bullets making you miss more often which helps your enemies both in chases and in time during direct combat. Brass beast: this change in unsalvageable, 200 extra bullets don't help with the problem of the BB and it doesn't fix the problem grouch pointed out. Hue long Heater: the concept is terrible, once again he pointed out the problem where it's a little worse most of the time and a little better some of the time but it's out of your control, making the weapon extra polarizing doesn't help the weapon, once again the balance change is unsalvageable.
heavy secondaries: Delokohs bar: grouch definitely went too far here, he had a point with what he was trying to do to our snack making it consumed faster, it helps every use of the delokohs bar, you get more time with your extra health, you can preform the GRU glitch faster, you can heal up quicker then the banana or sandwich. the main problem is that he also reduced the health gotten from the bar, my change is simple, revert the healing reduction back and recharge rate to the original value but keep the time it takes to eat the bar smaller then it's original point. BSS: the big problem is definitely as you pointed out, the fact that it gives you a damage vulnerability above the melee lock, but the change grouch suggested isn't as bad as it seems, eating the BSS faster allows you to start your rampage sooner and in more situations, but i do still disagree with making it deploy and holster faster it does that quick enough already, my only change is to revert the deploy and holster bonus. the family business: this is unsalvageable, he attempted to do a complete reform of the gun to fat scout only, locking your 2ndary to the big business and your primary to nothing, if i were to ever add a fat scout class to TF2 it would be through a shotgun to the primary slot not a change to the family business (which imo needs to be multiclass instead of the reserved shooter because that gun fits 3 out of 4 shotgun users lore wise unlike the reserve shooter)
sniper changes: i actually would generally agree with these changes but change some stuff, for examples, i would keep the classic's air tracers and give the Sidney sleeper those tracers as well (rather then the normal tracers everyone else is getting) i would also be more with FSOAS when it comes to the ammo department where sniper needs a clip that doesn't reload automatically, instead of just gutting the ammo pool of sniper by half, now sniper doesn't allow a functionally permanent lockdown of a part of a map due to him having a clip. Sniper primaries: HMHM: if you look deep you realize the heat maker still has half the ammo pool meaning the only downside it doesn't get is the tracer rounds, well let's change that. instead of 66% less body shot damage return it to 20% and instead add the classic's air tracers. Machina: jeeze what was the point of this nerf? the Machina didn't need it just revert it to the current version.
sniper 2ndaries: DDS: what is this shit? a sniper that's just as fast as scout but can also jump higher? pretty sure it matches with a scout that double jumped using the fucking WINGER! this is not what the shield was designed for and the buff is unsalvageable, every buff to a sniper's movement speed is basically a nuclear bomb to TF2 game balance. Razorback back: just revert it to the current form, there is no need for a Wet piss blanket, it doesn't protect you from spies at all it does nothing. unsalvageable. also the overheal removal was for you not being able to tank both a backstab AND a headshot, not spy's revolver. Cozy camper: W H Y ? ! this is once again unsalvageable and needs to be reverted back to the current item immediately! current cozy camper isn't even unbalanced, there was no reason for him to include it in the video. cleaner's carbine: once again you are correct in your assessment, grouch's fix is welcomed but unnecessary. i don't think i should even talk about it because it changes nothing when it comes to the problem of the weapon (aka the firing speed)
Sniper melee: Shahansha (or as i like to call it the Shanshanasha): once again polarizing a weapon doesn't make it better, if anything it make the Shanshanasha worse, and unsalvageable nerf to a hard to implement concept, revert to current form. Tribalman's shiv: why did he reduce it's damage? it didn't need it a nerf, keep the extra bleed but return the damage to as it was before grouch's change.
solider's bison: eh he did a good enough job, but i don't think it is the best concept this thing could offer, just like you i'm conflicted. scout's candy cane: revert to original, this is unsalvageable, idk what made you change a specific downside to a general one and MAKE IT WORSE but you sure did it grouch. Demo's caber: this is truly unsalvageable, more then 400 explosive recoil damage is just stupid, triple building damage is smart in the context that you have nothing against buildings, sadly this is demoman we are talking about and a melee is the worst slot to place it in, as for random crits it's truly a screw you moment. Demo's Iron bomber: grouch forgot that small differences can be good the Iran bomber's pills are made in a way where it's easier to use them for jumps, this alone is a massive upside which puts it above stock for me, so turning it to a carpet bomber is a no on my end, please revert to original because this weapon shouldn't have been discussed.
just on the topic of the natascha, you bring up some good points about how the its a support weapon, the changes dont work as a support weapon anymore, but you never stop to think if a class should have the ability to do the things the natascha does edit: you do the same thing with the darwins danger shield, you point out the weapon isnt useless (which is fair) but you dont question if sniper should have a more or less immunity to one of only a small handful of counterplay he has Edit 2: you do this again in your little tangent with the ambassador, you state "the stealth class doesnt get to snipe" but you dont consider how it would affect the game this video just feels like you disagreeing with grouch like he doesnt "get" tf2, and youre trying to explain it to him and dont get me wrong, i dont like grouchs ideas either, but youre not breaking down his rebalances
25:20 (aprox timestamp of an argument) I feel like learning how to play the second most powerful class in the game (mundee mc sniper) SHOULD be difficult because y know, if you are gonna be far away from everyone and instakill pepole at least it should require you to learn to position properly, be aware of players that might be flanking at you, and manage your resources instead of playing a point and click adventure with ocasional quick time events Im not calling snipers low skilled players, i just feel like to play something so powerful it should be hard to learn so you get GOOD and dominate the aspects of sniper gameplay
yes because you need to make a new model and program everything for the weapon, so stats changes are more easyly to do thats why there is a fuck ton of server with rebalanced or changed weapons.
Just reduce the clip to 3 bullets like the frontier justice Its not that hard, no need to over think your small head and come up with a bajillion nerf ideas
@@ESALTEREGO The most common issue with DB is how easy it is to earn those crits and then you can safely dispatch enemies from spots that should never be possible. Most DB spies will cheese this by running to the enemy spawn and sap the 2-3 lv1 tele that the engi left behind, and now all the sudden they can wipe a combo. Reducing clip size will only hurt the noobs that can't aim, and not the decent ones, who are abusing this, and are the main culprits. Having fall-off would balance it from being a miniature sniper rifle, to something the spy last minute, is a much more balanced change.
6:50 Natascha in rebalance mods does the exact same thing as Grouch's idea. Nobody really cares that you seem to dislike it, but it did work on every rebalance mod that had the same idea. I dont know, no reason to really continue watching this video when it starts with such a low note...
22:16 you sounded kinda weird the whole video before that point, but now it seems like you just dont want to change anything. I think ammo is a fine nerf, in fact you may not even need tracer rounds with that Also yes, close range class such as pyro counter long range class such as sniper, just like swords and pikes countered early muskets!
The Pyro does counter Sniper with the flare guns. Flare guns have an arc but infinite range. In fact, WAY back in old TF2, the Flare Gun being added was a big deal for that reason - it gave a long-range answer to a sniper who lacks cover, but using cover blocks the sniper's line of sight. It was a very big deal.
@@JakeJakers sniper has infinite range and hitscan is undodgable. You can just 3 bodyshot kill a pyro while doing anything but standing still in most sightlines and you will be fine even worse for pyro if you can actually aim and land a headshot
40:43 I’m a little confused. You’re against buffing the rocket jumper because Trolldier is “stronger than he has any right to be” but you also want to buff the mantreads, the go-to trolldier secondary?
Sorry for the sconfusion, so let me elaborate: I don't want that particular buff of instant map teleportation with the rocket jump. And I only mention the man treads because, beyond trolldier, me and my friends have found it to be one of the weakest options. the implication was meant to be that it could be given stronger use-cases beyond trolldier Probably should have brought up the B.A.S.E. jumper (since it got nerfed a bit too hard), but the point was that it's weird to think that there's only one soldier weapon (the Righteous Bison) needs a buff. Hopes this makes a little more sense.
The Diamondback crits for 102 damage, not 120. This was, of course, a mistake so terrible that it invalidated your whole video. Good video, btw. I think at points you were a little too nitpicky, but overall your arguments seemed fair and logical.
It invalidates that one part of the video. It's a very small portion of the video and yes, it's good to point out, but that's like firing a teacher for making a single mistake. We're not freakin' robots.
I feel like they nailed very well the sniper nerfs I even asked some friends that main sniper and they told me they are reasonable balance changes and dont change much of sniper's gameplay
I have the impression you're okay with the natascha's slow down gimmick. Also, if you think it's overkill to nerf sniper's ammo capacity, remember that sniper can kill any class in the game instantly whilst only being 4 pixels tall on their screen. If anything Grouch was too lenient when nerfing sniper
To be honest, the second version of the Enforcer is neat. It kinda always was the 'gun spy' pick, aside from the fucking Amby (the tryhard pick), so seeing it embody that more, again, is really neat.
As a medic main, I respect Ambi spies because the amount of effort that required on the Spy main to consistently land those far away headshots without the assistance of a scope is insane. And that is a lot of time and effort that went into A SINGLE WEAPON. Such a shame Valve nerf it into the ground and now basically makes it pointless, because Ambi's effective range now is the same with stock Revolver (as in why go for a difficult headshot when 3 body shots do the job).
He doesn't know how to actually nerf sniper properly. Heres how you do it. There are 3 ways to nerf sniper. - Make him more vulnerable to getting flanked and allowing another class that isn't himself to threaten him at his effective range. - Eliminating quickscopes and nerfing his damage a bit. - Making him more noticeable and the rifle less consistent. I'll list 3 avenues of nerfs Sniper could have that'd fix him up in different ways. Perhaps hes so strong he might need 2 of them, but that would need play testing. 1. Nerf sniper's max hp to 100. Huntsman and Classic give 25 base health. DDS gives Explosive Vuln of 25%. Ambassidor gets an additional 5% damage nerf. - Now sniper can be oneshot by a demo at SNIPER'S effective range if the demo is good with pipes. If a scout flanks sniper, he goes down to a single meatshot, if a soldier gets up close he gets oneshot to a single rocket instead of getting time to get off a quickscope, ext... Now sniper needs to be very aware of his surroundings as a single sneak up to him will be the end of him, but he still has his damage and everything he had before. The amby change will only change the Soldier and Heavy matchups, needing an additional bodyshot for each to finish off those respected classes. Also now Demo can reliably deal with him at range, giving the Sniper a possible soft counter at his own effective range. This also means any chip damage to a sniper is now very valuable because it could bring him into oneshot range from mid range attacks like stickies, rockets, DH rockets, and the like or allow a spy to oneshot him with an amby. 2. Rifles now deal 25 damage instead of 50 base. Scope charge is now 5x instead of 3x damage. Fully charged scope shots deal minicrit damage unless a headshot would change them to a critical. Huntsman unchanged. - This change makes snipers unable to quickscope and instantly down 5/9 classes with 3/9 of the rest being in a single no scope bodyshot range to finish off. This also brings his max damage for scoping in to 375 down from 450 buffing heavy as now a fully healed heavy can survive a single fully charged headshot, giving Spy a unique thing he can do over sniper which is oneshotting a heavy at any health. (the fists of steel would be nerfed on top of this ofc.) Now Sniper can no longer instantly drop a medic by just quickscoping them, the only class who can kill a medic with no warning at any range. However, a sniper if they charge their scope all the way up can still do 166 bodyshot damage, which is now a slight buff to sniper taking a more methodical method to sniping instead of just quickscoping everyone to death. This also gives him way more tunnel vision making him much easier to flank and reduces his overall ability to pick off people as fast as he currently does and completely removes his ability to defend himself at close range with his rifle, instead forcing him to rely on his other weapons to do so. 3. Rifle now sways randomly instead of jutting straight up when damaged and no longer resets back to where it was. While sniper has a rifle out, a laser can be seen showing where he is aiming instead of a dot. In order to get a critical with any rifle, the charge bar must start filling before you can cause critical damage, effectively adding a .33 second timer to all quickscopes and giving the opponent the opportunity to react to the sniper actually scoping in before they get quickscoped. - These changes now make harassing snipers much more effective meaning they might just have to run the Cozy Camper to offset that which will make them much easier to target. The laser will let people know there is a sniper there and where he is aiming. A good sniper doesn't care if people know where hes at, he'll just pop them anyway or he'll make them not take the main route and thus accomplish his job anyway. And the quickscope change here gives some counterplay to quickscoping by allowing players to hit the sniper to cause his rifle sway to mess him up when they notice him scoping in, which with the first change will give an effective counter to quickscoping but wont reduce the power of quickscoping at medium ranges.
While I agree you should be allowed to play however you like in tf2, there needs to be some kind of game sense that goes into everyone so they are conscious of their team's current class distribution. Playing as the 5th Sniper while your team can't even touch the cart in the last 7 minutes is downright sabotage.
@@theotv5522I was talking about the danger sheild, that just forces pyros to ether stay away from the sniper entirely or switch classes, you should not be able to do that by equipping a weapon.
Uh.... I'm not a TF2tuber. This is literally my first video on the game. I've never interacted with any other tf2tubers, either. Sorry, but I made this video because I wanted to, plain and simple.
![[TF2] The Vita-Saw: Medic's Worst Melee?](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_rZ82TxBe7o/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Vita-Saw: Medic's Worst Melee?](/img/tr.png)
his ability to find exactly what is wrong with a weapon and then make the worst idea imaginable is amazing
At points, yes. But to be fair, there are some good ideas here. I find the ideas that are objectively buffs but don't actually fix the problem more baffling, personally.
I feel that there are some nice ideas here, but they get overshadowed by the more ridiculous concepts and the weird inconsistencies between the script and the actual changes.
It also didn't account for the fact WHY certain weapons are the way they were. For example, Vitasaw (before the organ system): it used to be very unfair because if 1 medic uses it, the other has to, otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage when they die.
That's just goes to show that it's a lot simpler to notice the problem than to fix it
I think a huge problem with the original video is that he called it rebalances but his intent was seemingly just ideas he had for fun...which are not the same
It's not just that. there are a lot of comments throughout the video that contribute to frustration of the original video. He did tone that down in the follow-up, so I think he realized that as well.
In the video he doesnt act like that at all, im pretty sure he was just backpedaling
If that’s the case him mentioning weapons that he doesn’t change at all is contradicting that. Why have them in when they haven’t changed at all?
Honestly speaking if valve did decide to give all sniper rifles tracers then 100% the Sydney sleeper should be the exception. Because its weak and because you cant tracer a dart
the sydney sleeper wasnt weak before, valve just killed it by removing jarate splash on headshot
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I wish they'd keep that at least in MvM
would be pretty cool if the sydney sleeper had silent kills like the eternal reward since it shoots tranquilizers
Sydney Sleeper is banned in comp 6s because the ability to coat jarate, a very strong debuff from distance, makes medics now die even faster without the sniper needing skills to land a headshot.
I feel like the hit man's heat maker should also lack tracers
I LOVE BLEED!!!!
THIS IS MY BLOOOOOOD!
As i had unpopular comment under original video, bleed can very potentially replace melee random crit 1 shot kill that is.
Maybe roll them the same way, but instead of gamble 1 shot a dying wish tainted murder seems more appropriate
I'M GONNA NERF THE JAG TO BUFF MY BLEED WRENCH BLOOD IT'S BLEEEDINNNNGGG
@@ammi5311, 🗣replace random crits with random bleed effect❗❗🔥🔥
my dad watched this video then started using broken bottles to add bleed while he was abusing me...
*[BUFFED]*
Going to take notes again but for sniper. The ammo penalty was definitely needed for this class. In casual tf2 a good sniper can lock down an entire choke point for ages with his 25 reserve ammo. Not to mention sniper is also where the engineer is so he gets infinite ammo already from dispensers. This already known that causally nobody communicates (thx valve cause all the f2p still cant call for medic) but sniper is very hard to counter without another sniper. Spy is the only class that can somewhat get to sniper without having to sacrifice much but that is also a spy making sure they dont get spotted, actually kill the sniper, and then hope they can get out alive before the snipers team looks around. Every other class has to do way too much to kill a class that can 1 shot instant kill 5 out of the 9 classes. Whats stopping a sniper from camping near a sentry to just deny every class other than another sniper? 12 reserve ammo is more than enough to lock down a choke point but also allows breathing room. Down time on sniper is a great nerf that makes it where he is vulnerable but can still can use his team as a meat shield but also allow the other team to play the game.
I appreciate these inputs. Nice to get some first-hand experience from his server.
Yes indeed, sniper's burst fire natural and exclusiveness to ramp up buts him in a unique place.
Each ammo start from 50 damage with charge system for a 3x multiplier (150) then another 3x mechanical head shot multiplier (450)
Potential of spilling 450x25=11250 across the map without resupply is absurd
unless you give him like 2 shots only, an ammo nerf does nothing
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 the ammo nerf forces the sniper to be in very predictable spots more often than not. If you know where a ammo pack is or the engie has a dispenser near the back instead of higher traffic areas
@@Aegisdex hes already in very predictable spots, the actual problem is that you cant do much about him being in said predictable spot, as the reason why hes there so often is because that spot is really really good. i can tell you by memory every place a sniper can be on upward, you go play a match and hell be there guaranteed.
most of sniper hate stems from payloads overwhelming popularity, and payload maps are built around a track so they tend to be very very long, thus creating huge sightlines. you dont see anyone complaining about sightlines on a map like steel because its very condensed and doesnt have unreasonably huge fighting areas
basically, all the payload maps you love have horrid sightlines. upward, badwater, borneo, swiftwater, pier
I just noticed all the gameplay footage fits the class being talked of
You're the first person to comment on that.
What are the games?
Was expecting to see some hospital simulator game for the medic section but instead got something even more fitting lol
@@JakeJakers I love Serious Sam The Second Encounter
@@banbanthebandit4002 We got Emesis Blue
6:51 Honestly, as someone whose favourite class is Heavy, as much as I wholeheartedly agree that people who propose that a speed buff rework for the Natasha are missing the point... I also have to point out that the uses that you listed are exactly what people hated about the gun right now.
Back then you can completely negate the slow debuff from it by spamming A+D (side stepping basically), but when Valve tried to remove the stun from the Sandman, they broke the Natasha, so now people are feeling the full effect of the Natasha. Just a little bit of TF2 lore I wanna share.
Vacc defo needs to be nerfed or reworked and bringing up fucking melee damage as a counterpoint is ridiculous which just leaves unpleasant whiplash since most other comments you make are quite reasonable
make that 33% uber build penalty apply to shielded targets and its fine
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 that is definately not fine
yeah that part really irritated me "oh you can counter the vacc just simply melee the medic, because it's definitely that easy"
The best way to make Fat Scout viable is to have a shotgun primary, letting you bring a Sandvich
I think it’d be cool if the Sharpened Volcano Fragment had fire resistance and did more damage while you’re taking fire damage, with a lingering effect for a few seconds after the damage stops.
A tool for the Pyro vs Pyro matchup if you wanna keep a flare gun but also a weapon that’d pair with detonator jumping as a combat opener.
I, personally, _love_ long-form content, such as Blue's 2:27:27 reaction, your 1:29:13 analysis, etc. I like this because I love listening to people talk about a subject related to what I'm doing, so I'll play videos just like this when I'm in Hammer++ working on maps and gamemodes, when I'm not playing with friends, etc.
_This is probably because I'm autistic and TF2 is my favorite video game, but much love nonetheless!_
8:00
This is a surprise to me. Grouch was NOT the first person to suggest inverting the Natascha (from slowing down enemies to speeding up the user), it was actually a very popular suggestion among several content creators. So it's a bit of a shock to have it finally tested out and discover that it just isn't healthy or balanced
I do have to put notes on the natasha, the dmg penalty really means nothing on it as you can close the distance on your enemies rather than having to poke corners. Heavy is still the highest dps in the game wnd even at midrange will chew through players even with a 30% dmg penalty. Playing on the server you really felt the movement increase not only helped you dodge players but get ramp up much faster and even chase players trying to escape. The only thing thats bad about it now is the while active health drain. The rev speed is fine since you dont want a fast rev and fast movement speed heavy bullying you. If the health drain was while reved instead of while active it would be much more fun to play with and allows it to be its own thing risking your tankiness for speed. Comp players on the video mostly said that it having no speed penalty was actually broken so yeah it was very overpowered before the nerfs
Thanks for the first-hand input. Really appreciate.
I propose it follow the similar design at that point which is baby-face blaster.
Retaliate reduced heavy's gained speed while he earned it back with damage delt positive feedback is a much proper drawback
Providing you tools to prevent taking damage, then making you take damage sounds kinda odd. Especially in the context of the weapon being used in active combat.
- I actually like the chocolate bar rework but it shouldn’t replace the current version. Would be nicer as a new weapon. Would also need some number tweaks
- I think the cleaners carbine change is near perfect due to the synergy it has with the mini crit stat, as well as the fun factor of turning your SMG into an assault rifle temporarily.
The Classic and Sidney Sleeper being the only rifles without tracers would actually be a pretty solid change to Sniper. Especially if it was Classic tracers instead of full tracers that are on the other guns.
I really hope to see you do more TF2 videos, one of my favourite things about you is how interesting you are to listen to and how knowledgeable you are when talking about dead rising and even this video! Also kudos to you for not hating on Grouch, by acknowledging how he's taken this criticism politely and constructively and to be nice to him. I like that.
Thanks. I have other TF2 ideas I wouldn't mind trying, like my own weapon rebalances.
@@JakeJakerslet's see them 😮
I find it funny that he didnt even spare The Classic from the sniper rifle nerfs. Wouldn't it make perfect sense for the already bad weapon to not get changes? The classic is already meant to be a callback to the old sniper. Why not have it be the one exempt from these changes instead of the heatmaker?
Because everyone who tried to use it and even the community gaslit others saying it's very good. It created a Mandela effect on the weapon, and people who don't play Sniper would believe is real. Kinda like how if you tell a non-TF2 player that the Mad Cap is an actual class or cosmetic/weapon, they would probably believe it.
If they officially give the sniper rifles tracers I'd rather they be proper bullet tracer bolts and not the Machina laser tracer that way you actually have to use your brain to triangulate where the sniper is.
Grouch says that heavy doesn't have a "true" subclass and then says engi has battle engi which isn't a "true" subclass either technically also as a sniper main who enjoys the classic grouch should have give it silent shot along with the Sydney sleeper instead of the hitmans heartmaker(I just wanted to say I'm not the best sniper and thus adding tracers to every rifle would feel insanely hard to play as now newer players will have an impossible time playing the game).
Grouch is also just being rude to people who enjoy the caber by saying "caber users are not normal sane people"
Grouch also changes weapons he finds boring which is a flawed view point and should not be the way you rebalance anything in a game
With the diamond back why can't spy have a power gun because yes I understand that the diamond back is annoying to fight against but it doesn't make sense that the diamond back shouldn't be a good gun and instead it should be pretty gimmicky and not very good gun
Damn wasn't expecting dead rising boy to cover this.
While there are poor ideas suggested in his original video, the impression I got is that some people's reaction were overblown. It's good to see folks criticizing without making things personal. A well done reply video :).
I mean, i liked some of his reworks, like his sniper one, but he then does... Asinine decisions like, "hey, snipers are too oppressive and i made a change for them that brings them in line? Well, danger shield that turns sniper into scout and a frog, heatmaker is basically a base game sniper, and cozy camper gives you 40 ammo."
And of course, the infamous... "Enforcer".
@@CodexQuinn Fair criticisms.
@@Scout-Fanfiction thank you, and also, i do agree. Some people just started hating on the guy instead of any actual criticism, like the bog standard "oooo that idea stupid."
@@CodexQuinn you're welcome
YEAH MY DEAD RISING BOOK TIER LIST BOY BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THE GROUCH TF2 BALANCE CHANGES!!!
The enforcer rework was actually really strong, I tried his server and every spy was using it. You don't need to hard fan, you can just time your shots to have a faster firing stock with similar damage. You do lose a bit of your range but for gunspy it's rather strong.
Interesting. Thanks for the first-hand feedback.
But dude!
8. SECONDS. OF BLEED.
I still find it funny that he made a gun that would be countered by a band-aid.
I wasnt expecting you of all people to make a TF2 video, but I am all the happier for it, especially given how thorough it is.
*W* for Wario World gameplay
The crazy part of his favorite wrench being the sh is that he constantly complains about boring weapons and plays with the most boring wrench? I feel like theres a joke about it doing bleed damage in here
His mini gun changes really get under my skin , I'm a 900 hour heavy main and I can tell you heavy doesn't have a bad mini gun they just require a diffrent mindset and playstyle
Support with natasha
Aggressive or ambush with the heater
Hyper defensive with the beast
I love the background gameplay of decades old obscure games like the Daryl Dixon game and Wario GameCube game
Check the Description for a whole bunch of information. Made sure to include chapters for those who have already seen his video. The Eureka Effect was left out since he decided the idea was bad in the follow-up, and it as connected to a section like the Machina was. I'll update this comment as needed.
1:01:24 rarely i can find someone speak up against spy discrimination, on point with observations.
the thing about his sniper nerf, is that he doesn't really fix the problem which is that sniper is just not fun to fight against. he does punish players for messing a shot but the change doesn't fix sniper, he is still just annoying and not fun to fight against.
I really like your breakdown on the Natasha. It was way worse than I thought it'd be. The only time I even considered the damage penalty was in passing. I didn't even think of the spin up time
I really like the big selection of games and their music in the background.
Very cool 👍
The funniest thing about the Huo Long heater rebalance is the ONLY thing you have to do to make the weapon decent is make the ring togglable like BWR does yes while its still situational its MUCH better also i feel like the SVF was designed with medieval the sole idea in mind yeah in a mode where everyone is locked to either melee or a few specific weapons its.... fine not the best weapon not the worst
7:35 I think its more of the fact that he's heard so many complaints about people DESPISING slowdown in TF2's fast paced movement game. So he got rid of it and made heavy faster which I think is fine, I specifically hate using Natascha because of the slowdown, I feel like an ass using it. His next video's rebalance is downright atrocious.
I feel like a buff the Brass Beast could use is a knockback resistance when active, it's supposed to be his heaviest mini gun I feel like it should act like one. OR just make the downsides less worse by making both go to 40% instead of 50% spin up and 60% slower movement, that way their not AS bad as people say they are but still have those downsides be noticeable.
The best thing we can do for the Huo Long Heater is to make the 10% damage penalty ONLY affect non burning targets so that way when they are on fire the 25% damage bonus isn't partially negated because of the downside. While I don't have issues with the ammo drain cause I've gotten used to it there are other players who can't watch their ammo so maybe reduce it to 3 ammo drain.
tf2s not a fast paced movement game and the natascha isnt particularly annoying to fight. the real problem with it is that its a useless counterintuitive crutch
the huolong is such a boring weapon, the 1 new thing it has and its something heavy cant even utilize. shouldve been a firework launcher like intended
I feel like the problem with toning down the stats is that it makes it less distinct, I like clear-cut harsh downsides for good upsides tradeoffs
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "not a fast paced movement game" You have not played the same game I have apparently.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "tf2 not fast paced movement game" I think you and I aren't playing the same game. There's a reason why there's more scout, soldier, and demoman mains than heavy mains in the game. Scout's fast running, Soldier with rocket jumps, Demoman with sticky jumping.
@@wolfthegreat87 cutting 10% off of the rev up speed and 20% off of the slower movement won't change too much.
I like to believe that the videogames used as background footage have a direct relationship to what is being talked about.
I just can't really get it out of my head that Scout segment is hell, and the final segment is Buckshot Roulette after all the madness. Even if the connection is tenuous.
You are correct that the gameplay wasn't random. Although the connections with Scout and Medic aren't quite right. Care to guess why I used the gameplay I did? I'm curious what your guesses are.
@@JakeJakers is medic a reference to emesis blu, with that russian roullete scene with post-burnt spy and soldier
@@terriblydrawnkobe Unintentionally, but yes.
@@JakeJakers was it another scene? I cant recall any other scene like that except maybe that funeral scene where medic shot the spy
The thing I’ll say about the L’Executeur is that I’d rather not let the sniper be able to get any kills at all because he’s been sent back to respawn over feeling slightly depressed because he’s been mildly inconvenienced.
Was not expecting the wario world gameplay but I'm very happy too see it!!!
Every time I thought I had seen the maximum extent of Grouch's dumbass balance changes, the guy managed to one up his own lunacy with every additional weapon change.
Truly a remarkable feat.
The main thing with the Kunai + Diamondback is that, yes, in a match with completely competent teammates their flaws come out in full force and actually act to balance the weapons (which is why the Kunai remains unbanned in all competitive formats, though the Diamondback is 6 feet under in both 6v6 and Highlander), but even a single sub-competent teammate can be taken advantage of to completely negate those drawbacks for no fault of your own. This is where most of the ire against those weapons come in, and why so many pub stomping rampages are noted compared to the Spy being put in a perpetual spawn timer on an Uncletopia server. Because if little Timmy running around with an unusual bought with his dad's disposable income and his back faced towards the enemy at all times gets Kunai'd, then suddenly you're left to disengage with the enemy's frontline and now have to deal with a Spy possessing 4x the overheal that can be given by a Medigun (or ~12% more than the max possible overheal compared to Stock Spy) and a free long range 102 damage chunker while retaining all of Stock Spy's capabilities. And if you take him down to half or less, but little Tommy isn't paying attention while shooting at the enemy half a map away with his minigun, then suddenly you have to fight pretty much a whole 'nother Spy who, again, still has access to all of Stock Spy's tools.
For other snowball weapons like the Eyelander, the Bazaar Bargain, the Air Strike, the Frontier Justice, etc, there is still the element of punishing you for your teammate's mistakes in them as well, but even if little Timmy and Tommy get a 0:15 K:D ratio against them, there are still other elements that keep them in check compared to stock. The Eyelander and Bazaar Bargin have to get two kills in without dying to cover for their lower Health/charge rate, and the Air Strike and the Frontier Justice have to _always_ sacrifice a good chunk of damage/splash radius or clip size, respectively.
So for the Kunai and Diamondback, they _should_ be changed if not just to cause less strife between teammates, but so many balance ideas just push the idea of further reducing max HP or damage inflicted when that is a lost cause. You end up with something that is either _still_ better than stock after using an incompetent teammate as fodder, or something _almost entirely_ worse than stock no matter the scenario. Or in Grouch's case, they just completely revamp the weapon, which isn't historically unprecedented for TF2, but it leaves their previous niche completely void when it _could_ work with just a bit of tweaking. A cut to cloak duration or a penalty to sapper damage are all it takes for the Diamondback and Kunai to feel like proper sidegrades even when they are used to pubstomp on an "immortal" Spy loadout.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video during the snier section, rebalancing a weapon based on the player base's skill is a very tricky subject. I personally vote for leaving them as is for now.
Tired of this punished by your incompetence team argument.
As if you supposed to not punished by lesser team in a team game.
Every other thing in game can capitalise on various degrees, just that kunai does in a away you aware off.
Guess what little Timmy also fed comp head random crit chance without you noticing, let alone a 0/15 KD already disabled your team's functionality by every player "falls easily to trickstab"
diamondbacks banned in 6s because they say spy cant get more than 1 kill and then get angry when he actually does get more than 1 kill with the help of crits
why do you bring up the bazaar bargain, unlike every other snowball weapon, even the diamondback, it has no downside in the right hands. its the dumbest snowball weapon of them all
(Force-A-Nature)
Fires 50% faster
20% more pellets per shot
Right click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage and doing 40% knockback to enemies and 40% self-knockback while airborne.
Each individual shot does 20% knockback to enemies and 20% self-knockback while airborn.
65 damage at close range
30 damage at mid range
10 damage at long range
Fires two shots
(Shortstop)
The shortstop is now a sidearm instead of a primary
Fires bullets instead of pellets
Fires 45% faster
Right click to shove enemies away, causing 20% knockback and does no damage
Mini-crits on headshot at close range
50 damage at close range
40 damage at mid range
20 damage at long range
Fires four shots
(Soda Popper)
Each hit fills 10% your HYPE meter.
Once fully charged, press the mouse wheel to activate HYPE, granting you 60% faster attack speed on all of your weapons, 40% faster reload speed, 30% faster weapon switching, 50% faster running speed, and it will only last 10 seconds.
Right click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage.
60 damage at close range
30 damage at mid range
10 damage at long range
Fires two shots
(Baby Face's Blaster)
Fires 8 shots
Running speed increases with each kill (just like the Eyelander)
maximum kills: 4
30 damage at close range
20 damage at mid range
10 damage at long range
You lose all of your speed if you die, get hit by jarate, mad milk, the gas passer, or get stunned by the Sandman.
(Back Scatter)
Shooting enemies in the back at close range does mini crits
Fires 10 shots
20% more accurate
30 damage at close range
20 damage at mid range
10 damage at long range
(Bonk Atomic Punch)
Grants you invulnerability for 10 seconds
Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off
Immune to all damage, debuffs, and knockback
You cannot attack, capture control points, or pick up the intelligence while invulnerable.
If you take damage while drinking Bonk, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge.
You cannot drink Bonk while covered in jarate, mad milk, or the gas passer
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet
(Crit-a-Cola)
Gives you mini-crits for 10 seconds, but you will be restricted to your melee weapon (just like the Buffalo Steak Sandvich)
Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off
If you take damage while drinking Crit-a-Cola, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge.
You cannot drink Crit-a-Cola while cover in jarate, mad milk or the gas passer
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet
(Mad Milk)
Enemies will be covered in mad milk for 10 seconds
Recharges for 20 seconds
10 health per hit on enemies covered in mad milk(afterburn damage also counts)
Enemies killed while covered in mad milk will replenish 50% of your meter
Extinguishing a teammate will replenish 90% of your meter
Can be replenish at the resupply cabinet
(winger)
15% more accurate
Mini-crits while airborne
Jump height increases with each kill
Maximum kills: 4
50% less fall damage
Fires 6 shots
20 damage at close range
15 damage at mid range
10 damage at long range
(Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol)
Gain 10 health on hit
Fires 6 shots
25 damage at close range
20 damage at mid range
15 damage at long range
(Flying Guillotine)
On hit causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds
Recharges for 20 seconds
Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit
Can be picked back up if you did not hit an enemy
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet
(Sandman)
Right click to launch baseball
Hitting enemies in the body will slow them down for 10 seconds
Hitting enemies in the head will stun them for 3 seconds
Can be picked up after being launched
Can be replenished at resupply cabinet
Ball recharges for 20 seconds
(Candy Cane)
Drops a small health pack if you melee kill a spy, sniper, scout, or medic
Drops a medium health pack if you melee kill an engineer, demoman, pyro, or soldier
Drops a large health pack if you melee kill a heavy
20% faster swing speed
(Boston Basher)
On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds
On miss: marked for death for 10 seconds
(Sun-on-a-Stick)
On hit: sets enemies on fire
Afterburn last 10 seconds
30% fire resistance while active
(Fan O War)
On hit: marks enemies for death for 15 seconds(no longer marks one enemy at a time)
50% less damage
(Atomizer)
On hit: fills 10% of your meter which can give you infinite air jumps for 10 seconds
right click to activate ability
Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit
(Wrap Assassin)
50% less damage
Right click to launch ornament
On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds
Recharges for 20 seconds
Shatters on impact against surfaces and enemies
Cannot be picked up after being launched
Can be replenished at resupply cabinet
dude people use cheats for the fan doubleshot because its that strong. im not even reading the rest my god
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413most of these changes are their trash or dumb
That guy should never be allowed to balance video games😂
Grouch thought giving scout a sniper rifle would be fair smh
How to make the sharpened volcano fragment good and fun.
Make it a throwable axe that does 50 base damage plus afterburner. And minicrits burning targets.
It has a 7 second cooldown. It'll free up the panic attack more to have a heavy hitting sudo flare.
Panic attack degreaser combo’s with a big punchy axe throw sounds awesome!
"The Huo-long's gimmick doesn't work because it requires you to coordinate with your Pyro, so I increased its damage at mid and long range where your ring of fire can't ignite enemies and reduced its base damage even further to compensate" is such a bizarre balance non-sequitur for me and completely set the tone for the rest of the video.
The Huo-long is already situational, it's basically only useful for guarding Engi nests and pushing payload, because dispenser or cart ammo regen completely negates the ammo cost for the ring. It does need better accuracy, or reduced spin-up or to apply fire after a certain number of hits or something else to make it a worthwhile pick, but I still enjoy using it to push cart for its novelty.
But I'd love to have a faster Dalokohs (as the Fishcake). Its niche is in counteracting the GRU or Eviction Notice health drain due to its temporary +50 max health, so being able to eat it faster would be a big improvement.
Also, the easiest way to make the "if you equip a lunchbox item you can equip a shotgun" happen imo is if you made the lunchbox items equippable as primaries, replacing the minigun instead of the shotgun.
Last comment, I think the best way to rebalance sniper is to make all headshots do minicrits instead of crits, the way the Sydney Sleeper does, unless fully charged. That way Sniper can still do effective damage at range without being able to instantly kill almost half the roster a moment after seeing them, while still preserving the ability of Sniper to remove overhealed Heavies, Soldiers, Demos and Pyros.
This would sniper a worthless waste of a class slot lmao
the huolong isnt situational there is no situation in which it is good. no, its not good on the cart either, because the cart cant help you shake off that permanent 10% damage penalty
>dalokohs should be faster
no, that makes it a brainless crutch, practically an overwatch ability. the only problem it has is its pathetic healing, 350 health is no good if you cant even get to max health
>sniper minicrit headshots
oh my god shitters need to pipe down and stop talking about sniper
nice to see grouch's weapon rebalance video dissected and studied in a lab
Good vid so far I just wanted to say that while I agree completely with the criticisms with the Hitman's Heatmaker rework I wanted to say that the reason why it was probably chosen to be the sneaky one without tracers was probably because of it having a silencer in the design of the weapon, I agree 100% with everything I just thought it was worth pointing out
This is gonna be the biggest IMO I’ll ever drop:
If more tf2 players played the first two pvz shooter games then we wouldn’t be grasping at straws trying to ether justify the sniper’s current state or trying to find a proper solution to how annoyingly oppressive the sniper is without straight up removing him or any of his unlocks.
Then again the pvz shooter games are by no means saints in terms of balance, and their snipers are no exception, even if it’s because their abilities are what make them annoying to fight against instead of their primary weapon. Although I think the cactus’s primary is more appropriate to translate than captain deadbeard’s primary because captain deadbeard’s primary acts like a low damage semi auto shotgun when not scoped in because the concept of having multiple weapons to switch between is a foreign one to the pvz shooters (so much so, that you have to be specific classes, or “heroes” as the pvz shooters call their classes, in order to even have an option to melee and for 2 of the 4 classes it’s their primary or sometimes only form of damage output besides… *the abilities…* ).
I don't play PvZ, what's the context here? Snipers can be balanced if done right (see CS:GO)
I just wanted to comment that we had the same train of thought towards Fat scout, tough I originally thought of just making lunchboxes available on the primary slot similar to how the Demoman can use the base jumper, in any of the cases, if it also implemented the idea of removing the damage penalty from the steak and make it not lock you to melee, it could then work for the fatscout playstyle
Free minicrits and a speed boost for no minigun just makes him a more annoying crit a cola scout
@@sgt.zaitsev287 i still think even with the steak speedboost, heavy is nowhere near a comfortable speed place to survive the same as a scout
22:25 i think that if one or two snipers is stopping twelve people from making meaningful progress on the objective, that NEEDS to be temporary, if not impossible.
Well this was... I'll be honest, I don't know much about TF2, specifically the gameplay, I know stuff like some of the lore and the memes, but I've not played the game itself, so a lot of this went a bit over my head. But game balance is a good thing to talk about, especially because it's not easy to do, and as someone wanting to make his own games, it is a thing I need to learn. I can also appreciate the games being shown for background footage kinda fitting with the class being talked about currently
One neat example of game balance that I like is the nerf to Dan in Street Fighter 5 that got rid of his infinite, specifically a change to his Gadoken move, quote, "Gadoken has been modified to have a random chance of activating an enhanced version of the attack" "The enhanced version has a longer range than the normal version. It can knock down opponents and create chances for follow-ups when it hits, and when the opponent guards, Dan has the advantage" basically making a change that still lets Dan do his infinite as a loop but stops him from doing it the whole match if he can, by knocking down the opponent. It's a nerf that doesn't totally change the use of Gadoken, but rather prevent something that could happen, and be rather annoying; Not a full nerf or overhaul of Gadoken, but still something that keeps Dan in check. And considering Dan is kind of a joke character, especially in the earlier Street Fighter games, it also fits with his personality, since it's kinda like him doing something right by accident, I could easily see Dan going, "Uhh... I meant to do that!" after he pulls it off.
Yeah, most of my audience doesn't seem to have much interest in TF2, or at least not in a specific response video like this.
Infinites take away interact ability between fighting game players, the are bound to fade as the genre modernized
I swear this dude has an obsesion with bleeding
28:41 no? If something is boring in a videogame and It serves no other purpose, why the hell would It be in a game that was made to be fun?
make it 28:41 (also I really agree with your point!)
He did it, he added bleed to a weapon in an actual interesting way
So, his vitasaw change
Played in his server, and it has rhe exact same issues he said the Kunai had. Medics now can tank more than they should, giving the class who can go invulnerable or give guaranteed crits for 8 seconds too much tankiness.
I agree the Vitasaw needed change, but Medics getting that tanky is just unfun
That one was quite a miss.
It could really be middle ground of what it used to be .
Passive kept up to 20% uber, on hit doubles (40%) for short duration like 5sec, and the 140hp is fair
Man I fuckin hate sniper but even I think these nerfs/reworks really just missed the mark. I dont want to sit here and play armchair dev so the only change I would suggest is just have reverse damage falloff for his primaries. It retains what he is already good at (long range picks) but forces him to use his melee or SMG in a close range encounter like intended.
To be honest one thing that could help greatily is just, a "Sniper!" quick callout just like the Spy one so at least once you know there's a sniper around the corner and survived for once you can warn whoever else is with you to not temp their fate.
@@simplysmiley4670I mean they have it in mvm and those snipers only body shot
Seeing walking dead survival instinct is so wild
Nearly forgot about that game
10/10 graphics
10/10 audio
10/10 hit on bleed
Review for this break down 10/10
“It good”
Guys i think i can fix the razorback : remove it
As you mentioned many times through out one of the biggest problems grouch made is completely scraping what is there already with concept totally unrelated.
The things being, some does have potential or interesting.
But what give him right to sentence options doesn't shine in his eye to oblivious out right?
Enforcer's replacement both had development going for them with a little adjust to go, but why are you devaluating the fine pierce tool ?
There are *some good ideas. I do think the Eureka Effect having 2 way teleporters could be a good concept but I think that it was a bit too harsh on the penalties. I'd rework it into making it an actual utility item where the Wrench only does like 20-30 damage with no random crits and make it to where the only way to use the special action it can do is if both teleporters are up instead of just the exit with the ability to still go back to spawn if need be.
to that kunai part: it sucks, the knife sucks, it's weak, it's brast beast kind of trap. all it takes to counter is a single pyro, and it doesn't matter how good as a spy you are nor how many sweatlord spies there are on your team, nor how bad the enemy team is. one pyro DOMINATES a kunai spy to an absurd extend. how do I know? I made a losing team win against 3 spy mains with the kunai+dead ringer+amby/DB set equipped, as a pyro, and a demo main (altho that really just shows you how absurdly unfair the spy vs. pyro match-up is, rather than anything else).
also, yeah, the vid sucks, and the moronic hatred against iron bomber is ludicrous, cuz I mainly play with it and it's COMPLETELY different to stock. but play the class, and not many are masochists and alcoholics.
ok, I got triggered by sb attacking my baby.
this is thrice the size of the original video 💀
Unfortunately. As I said, I'm sorry I couldn't structure this into something more palatable time-wise. I hate making videos overly-long like this.
@@JakeJakers i guess that is understandable, i'm glad you responded too. watched the whole video, it was good.
I like how long it is. It gives them plenty of time to say exactly what they need to say. There isnt anything thats drawn out, or unnecessary, all of it is important to getting the points across.
This video would've been better if it gave bleed for 8 seconds.
I’ve played the server and the Darwin’s rework is incredibly fun, to the point where the main reason to play the server is using it.
If that were to be a thing, i'd rather it be a separate weapon. Like giving him Super Mario Boots. I'm still not big on the idea.
Darwin is the one weapon deserved replaced completely (arguably most backpack secondary too).
But, if were to elaborate on this jumpy i have suggestion.
The same jump ability requires resource to initiate.
Taken 65 damage enable 1 jump, can stored up to 150 disposable.
This make it so encourages sniper to act closer to frontline and taking risk (damaged), then reward for mobility option responsibly.
While a dominating sniper couldn't abuse position again avenging sniper fail to lay a hand on, sitting comfortably far behind also won't do anything.
"sorry for the time investment this video asks of you"
bold of you to assume i don't want a very long and interesting video to play on my second monitor while i draw
Brain slop artist 🙄
Not gonna lie TF2 should have something like this every now and then just to spice things up.
Warioworld gameplay 🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣
Game designer here. I haven't watched Grouch's video and probably will not finish yours, but, RE: Huo-Long Heater.
It makes a lot of sense to make it worse without pyro and better with one? To make both upsides and downsides more prominent is a classic design technique to give an option a defined niche, in this case, a weapon you use when you are on call with a pyro player. Whether stock damage + no falloff is sufficient to accomplish that is debatable, but it is a step in a good direction.
The same goes for Brass Beast. It makes sense to make a "sentry gun" to be better at sentry gunning instead of trying to make it faster. I agree that extra ammo would probably not be sufficient, but it probably allows more flexibility with positioning at cheeky spots instead of being superglued to a dispenser.
Thanks for responding - it's always cool to talk to a game designer. but the issue is that those two weapons are TOO niche, especially the Hou-Long Heater. His "buff" to the heater makes it ONLY good at comboing with a Pyro, when it needs use beyond that. For example, if he just added a single change where it gets the Tomisolv's faster rev-up, it also becomes a better ambush minigun and helps mitigate the ammo consumption of the ring of fire. But that lower damage against non-burning targets would encourage the player to be more of an ambush Heavy instead of just stalking a Pyro.
@@JakeJakers I don't think it's a realistic problem, honestly. Pyro is a very popular class, and while maybe my perception is skewed by Uncletopia's class limits, I don't think I've been in any matches without a single pyro, and generally pyros and heavies tend to be within line sight of each other so it's not like either will have to go out of their way to make such version of Huo-Long Heater work.
I can easily imagine how in a defence scenario a pyro can enable a distant heavy to put serious pressure on the enemy. On, say, Snakewater last heavy can defend right, and have a pyro hanging around shutter (or vice versa).
Generally, the main problem with miniguns is that they are same-y, with neither their downsides nor upsides demanding much change in play style, and forced cooperation sounds like something that will make players to play differently than with stock.
Is it perfect? Probably no. Your suggestions of either giving it tighter spread or faster rev up time are undeniably sound, but I think the core idea is a step the right direction. Ultimately it's all navel gazing, the game will never receive balance updates anyway, and it's much more useful to think abstractly rather than getting bogged down in specifics.
@@AliceLoverdrive Oh, my issue isn't the LACK of pyro. It's that a Pyro often doesn't need much help. The you describe would work with Grouch's version, but I'd rather not have weapons, especially primary weapons, be THAT situational in the first place. Which is where I take issue with the rebalance video - calling something a buff while making the very issue worse.
And I think there's value in the Naval gazing from simply encouraging critical thinking in the first place. plus, it's pretty fun.
The only way to fix sniper is to add fall off.
I will be one of pleased to see what your able to make in rebalance, as a critic you had been.
Curious being would you focus on "your" personal vision, or were you interested to heard some input?
You replied to almost every single comment and none of them are readable. This feels like mashing the autosuggested words your phone keyboard gives you.
@@jc_art_ glad you see all of them
They're RUclips comment get over them
PLANTS VS ZOMBIES NIGHT MUSIC AND GAMEPLAY
I don’t play TF2, But video was still fun to watch
ok i wanted to do a full review because the first time i saw this i acted rashly gonna do it here where i can get extra feedback. (i'm not gonna be very specific though, similar to grouch)
and will attempt to change his ideas to better balance them out, not every weapon is salvageable though, i will mention them when they come.
heavy primaries: (this is gonna be a chain of comments where each comment will focus on a slot or character)
Natasha: good concept, terrible execution, when it comes to TF2 speed is king it must always come with the reduction to either health or damage, something that Grouch missed with this weapon but got with both the buffalos stake and the Darwin's danger shield, but i think part of it is because the Natasha already had a damage nerf (as weak as it really is because the type of weapon Natasha is)
my change for the weapon is to remove the damage penalty at the cost of a much harsher damage fall off and a 50 max health reduction, allowing the Natasha to specialize in specifically close range combat and big ambushes where you shove yourself onto the enemy, the extra speed will allow you to remain in close range for longer securing more kills then usual from the worse fall off while the max health reduction will allow you to be stopped easier.
in the case the weapon is still overpowered i would consider reducing your speed when revved up to be less oppressive in the chase (but not back to the old rev speed just slightly slower) or give the Natasha a wider spread of bullets making you miss more often which helps your enemies both in chases and in time during direct combat.
Brass beast: this change in unsalvageable, 200 extra bullets don't help with the problem of the BB and it doesn't fix the problem grouch pointed out.
Hue long Heater: the concept is terrible, once again he pointed out the problem where it's a little worse most of the time and a little better some of the time but it's out of your control, making the weapon extra polarizing doesn't help the weapon, once again the balance change is unsalvageable.
heavy secondaries:
Delokohs bar: grouch definitely went too far here, he had a point with what he was trying to do to our snack making it consumed faster, it helps every use of the delokohs bar, you get more time with your extra health, you can preform the GRU glitch faster, you can heal up quicker then the banana or sandwich.
the main problem is that he also reduced the health gotten from the bar, my change is simple, revert the healing reduction back and recharge rate to the original value but keep the time it takes to eat the bar smaller then it's original point.
BSS: the big problem is definitely as you pointed out, the fact that it gives you a damage vulnerability above the melee lock, but the change grouch suggested isn't as bad as it seems, eating the BSS faster allows you to start your rampage sooner and in more situations, but i do still disagree with making it deploy and holster faster it does that quick enough already, my only change is to revert the deploy and holster bonus.
the family business: this is unsalvageable, he attempted to do a complete reform of the gun to fat scout only, locking your 2ndary to the big business and your primary to nothing, if i were to ever add a fat scout class to TF2 it would be through a shotgun to the primary slot not a change to the family business (which imo needs to be multiclass instead of the reserved shooter because that gun fits 3 out of 4 shotgun users lore wise unlike the reserve shooter)
sniper changes:
i actually would generally agree with these changes but change some stuff, for examples, i would keep the classic's air tracers and give the Sidney sleeper those tracers as well (rather then the normal tracers everyone else is getting)
i would also be more with FSOAS when it comes to the ammo department where sniper needs a clip that doesn't reload automatically, instead of just gutting the ammo pool of sniper by half, now sniper doesn't allow a functionally permanent lockdown of a part of a map due to him having a clip.
Sniper primaries:
HMHM: if you look deep you realize the heat maker still has half the ammo pool meaning the only downside it doesn't get is the tracer rounds, well let's change that.
instead of 66% less body shot damage return it to 20% and instead add the classic's air tracers.
Machina: jeeze what was the point of this nerf? the Machina didn't need it just revert it to the current version.
sniper 2ndaries:
DDS:
what is this shit? a sniper that's just as fast as scout but can also jump higher? pretty sure it matches with a scout that double jumped using the fucking WINGER!
this is not what the shield was designed for and the buff is unsalvageable, every buff to a sniper's movement speed is basically a nuclear bomb to TF2 game balance.
Razorback back: just revert it to the current form, there is no need for a Wet piss blanket, it doesn't protect you from spies at all it does nothing. unsalvageable.
also the overheal removal was for you not being able to tank both a backstab AND a headshot, not spy's revolver.
Cozy camper: W H Y ? ! this is once again unsalvageable and needs to be reverted back to the current item immediately! current cozy camper isn't even unbalanced, there was no reason for him to include it in the video.
cleaner's carbine: once again you are correct in your assessment, grouch's fix is welcomed but unnecessary. i don't think i should even talk about it because it changes nothing when it comes to the problem of the weapon (aka the firing speed)
Sniper melee:
Shahansha (or as i like to call it the Shanshanasha): once again polarizing a weapon doesn't make it better, if anything it make the Shanshanasha worse, and unsalvageable nerf to a hard to implement concept, revert to current form.
Tribalman's shiv: why did he reduce it's damage? it didn't need it a nerf, keep the extra bleed but return the damage to as it was before grouch's change.
solider's bison: eh he did a good enough job, but i don't think it is the best concept this thing could offer, just like you i'm conflicted.
scout's candy cane: revert to original, this is unsalvageable, idk what made you change a specific downside to a general one and MAKE IT WORSE but you sure did it grouch.
Demo's caber: this is truly unsalvageable, more then 400 explosive recoil damage is just stupid, triple building damage is smart in the context that you have nothing against buildings, sadly this is demoman we are talking about and a melee is the worst slot to place it in, as for random crits it's truly a screw you moment.
Demo's Iron bomber: grouch forgot that small differences can be good the Iran bomber's pills are made in a way where it's easier to use them for jumps, this alone is a massive upside which puts it above stock for me, so turning it to a carpet bomber is a no on my end, please revert to original because this weapon shouldn't have been discussed.
just on the topic of the natascha, you bring up some good points about how the its a support weapon, the changes dont work as a support weapon anymore, but you never stop to think if a class should have the ability to do the things the natascha does
edit: you do the same thing with the darwins danger shield, you point out the weapon isnt useless (which is fair) but you dont question if sniper should have a more or less immunity to one of only a small handful of counterplay he has
Edit 2: you do this again in your little tangent with the ambassador, you state "the stealth class doesnt get to snipe" but you dont consider how it would affect the game
this video just feels like you disagreeing with grouch like he doesnt "get" tf2, and youre trying to explain it to him
and dont get me wrong, i dont like grouchs ideas either, but youre not breaking down his rebalances
25:20 (aprox timestamp of an argument)
I feel like learning how to play the second most powerful class in the game (mundee mc sniper) SHOULD be difficult because y know, if you are gonna be far away from everyone and instakill pepole at least it should require you to learn to position properly, be aware of players that might be flanking at you, and manage your resources instead of playing a point and click adventure with ocasional quick time events
Im not calling snipers low skilled players, i just feel like to play something so powerful it should be hard to learn so you get GOOD and dominate the aspects of sniper gameplay
I agree - but Sniper already IS hard to play because it's a movement-based arena shooter.
a lot of zombie games
I don’t know too much about tf2 servers, is it easier to change in-game weapons than adding new ones?
yes because you need to make a new model and program everything for the weapon, so stats changes are more easyly to do thats why there is a fuck ton of server with rebalanced or changed weapons.
Yet another youtuber that should have more subscribers
TF2 weapon rebalance takes were so horrible, even the Dead Rising youtuber was pissed off.
HEAVY ISN’T FAAAAATTTTT
HE’S BEEFY
The obvious change for the Diamondback is to give the crits fall-off like the Ambassador.
Just reduce the clip to 3 bullets like the frontier justice
Its not that hard, no need to over think your small head and come up with a bajillion nerf ideas
@@ESALTEREGO The most common issue with DB is how easy it is to earn those crits and then you can safely dispatch enemies from spots that should never be possible. Most DB spies will cheese this by running to the enemy spawn and sap the 2-3 lv1 tele that the engi left behind, and now all the sudden they can wipe a combo.
Reducing clip size will only hurt the noobs that can't aim, and not the decent ones, who are abusing this, and are the main culprits. Having fall-off would balance it from being a miniature sniper rifle, to something the spy last minute, is a much more balanced change.
PAPER MARIO REFERENCED
6:50 Natascha in rebalance mods does the exact same thing as Grouch's idea.
Nobody really cares that you seem to dislike it, but it did work on every rebalance mod that had the same idea.
I dont know, no reason to really continue watching this video when it starts with such a low note...
22:16 you sounded kinda weird the whole video before that point, but now it seems like you just dont want to change anything. I think ammo is a fine nerf, in fact you may not even need tracer rounds with that
Also yes, close range class such as pyro counter long range class such as sniper, just like swords and pikes countered early muskets!
The Pyro does counter Sniper with the flare guns. Flare guns have an arc but infinite range. In fact, WAY back in old TF2, the Flare Gun being added was a big deal for that reason - it gave a long-range answer to a sniper who lacks cover, but using cover blocks the sniper's line of sight. It was a very big deal.
@@JakeJakers sniper has infinite range and hitscan is undodgable. You can just 3 bodyshot kill a pyro while doing anything but standing still in most sightlines and you will be fine
even worse for pyro if you can actually aim and land a headshot
@@benismann Pyro only needs to bodyshots. I have seen plenty of Pyros counter Sniper in-game. Been killed by a few myself on an old Steam profile.
Undertale fangames be like: 1:12:00
Bleed is overpowered guys
also im sorry to ruin the 666 views
Oh boy, an hour and a half of TF2 balance autism, P R I M E sleep material. Thanks, chief.
40:43 I’m a little confused. You’re against buffing the rocket jumper because Trolldier is “stronger than he has any right to be” but you also want to buff the mantreads, the go-to trolldier secondary?
Sorry for the sconfusion, so let me elaborate: I don't want that particular buff of instant map teleportation with the rocket jump. And I only mention the man treads because, beyond trolldier, me and my friends have found it to be one of the weakest options. the implication was meant to be that it could be given stronger use-cases beyond trolldier Probably should have brought up the B.A.S.E. jumper (since it got nerfed a bit too hard), but the point was that it's weird to think that there's only one soldier weapon (the Righteous Bison) needs a buff.
Hopes this makes a little more sense.
@@JakeJakersomg he can teleport across the map to feed the enemy team! hes too op
good video
The Diamondback crits for 102 damage, not 120. This was, of course, a mistake so terrible that it invalidated your whole video.
Good video, btw. I think at points you were a little too nitpicky, but overall your arguments seemed fair and logical.
Yeah, I mixed up the 2 and the 0 in the script and didn't notice it. My videos have a lot of little issues like that. Eh, it happens.
It invalidates that one part of the video. It's a very small portion of the video and yes, it's good to point out, but that's like firing a teacher for making a single mistake. We're not freakin' robots.
@@theglowing1349 I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
I feel like they nailed very well the sniper nerfs
I even asked some friends that main sniper and they told me they are reasonable balance changes and dont change much of sniper's gameplay
I have the impression you're okay with the natascha's slow down gimmick. Also, if you think it's overkill to nerf sniper's ammo capacity, remember that sniper can kill any class in the game instantly whilst only being 4 pixels tall on their screen.
If anything Grouch was too lenient when nerfing sniper
To be honest, the second version of the Enforcer is neat.
It kinda always was the 'gun spy' pick, aside from the fucking Amby (the tryhard pick), so seeing it embody that more, again, is really neat.
Yeah, although my version would be a little more restrained. no spoilers on the exact details, though.
As a medic main, I respect Ambi spies because the amount of effort that required on the Spy main to consistently land those far away headshots without the assistance of a scope is insane. And that is a lot of time and effort that went into A SINGLE WEAPON.
Such a shame Valve nerf it into the ground and now basically makes it pointless, because Ambi's effective range now is the same with stock Revolver (as in why go for a difficult headshot when 3 body shots do the job).
He doesn't know how to actually nerf sniper properly. Heres how you do it.
There are 3 ways to nerf sniper.
- Make him more vulnerable to getting flanked and allowing another class that isn't himself to threaten him at his effective range.
- Eliminating quickscopes and nerfing his damage a bit.
- Making him more noticeable and the rifle less consistent.
I'll list 3 avenues of nerfs Sniper could have that'd fix him up in different ways. Perhaps hes so strong he might need 2 of them, but that would need play testing.
1. Nerf sniper's max hp to 100. Huntsman and Classic give 25 base health. DDS gives Explosive Vuln of 25%. Ambassidor gets an additional 5% damage nerf.
- Now sniper can be oneshot by a demo at SNIPER'S effective range if the demo is good with pipes. If a scout flanks sniper, he goes down to a single meatshot, if a soldier gets up close he gets oneshot to a single rocket instead of getting time to get off a quickscope, ext... Now sniper needs to be very aware of his surroundings as a single sneak up to him will be the end of him, but he still has his damage and everything he had before. The amby change will only change the Soldier and Heavy matchups, needing an additional bodyshot for each to finish off those respected classes. Also now Demo can reliably deal with him at range, giving the Sniper a possible soft counter at his own effective range. This also means any chip damage to a sniper is now very valuable because it could bring him into oneshot range from mid range attacks like stickies, rockets, DH rockets, and the like or allow a spy to oneshot him with an amby.
2. Rifles now deal 25 damage instead of 50 base. Scope charge is now 5x instead of 3x damage. Fully charged scope shots deal minicrit damage unless a headshot would change them to a critical. Huntsman unchanged.
- This change makes snipers unable to quickscope and instantly down 5/9 classes with 3/9 of the rest being in a single no scope bodyshot range to finish off. This also brings his max damage for scoping in to 375 down from 450 buffing heavy as now a fully healed heavy can survive a single fully charged headshot, giving Spy a unique thing he can do over sniper which is oneshotting a heavy at any health. (the fists of steel would be nerfed on top of this ofc.) Now Sniper can no longer instantly drop a medic by just quickscoping them, the only class who can kill a medic with no warning at any range. However, a sniper if they charge their scope all the way up can still do 166 bodyshot damage, which is now a slight buff to sniper taking a more methodical method to sniping instead of just quickscoping everyone to death. This also gives him way more tunnel vision making him much easier to flank and reduces his overall ability to pick off people as fast as he currently does and completely removes his ability to defend himself at close range with his rifle, instead forcing him to rely on his other weapons to do so.
3. Rifle now sways randomly instead of jutting straight up when damaged and no longer resets back to where it was. While sniper has a rifle out, a laser can be seen showing where he is aiming instead of a dot. In order to get a critical with any rifle, the charge bar must start filling before you can cause critical damage, effectively adding a .33 second timer to all quickscopes and giving the opponent the opportunity to react to the sniper actually scoping in before they get quickscoped.
- These changes now make harassing snipers much more effective meaning they might just have to run the Cozy Camper to offset that which will make them much easier to target. The laser will let people know there is a sniper there and where he is aiming. A good sniper doesn't care if people know where hes at, he'll just pop them anyway or he'll make them not take the main route and thus accomplish his job anyway. And the quickscope change here gives some counterplay to quickscoping by allowing players to hit the sniper to cause his rifle sway to mess him up when they notice him scoping in, which with the first change will give an effective counter to quickscoping but wont reduce the power of quickscoping at medium ranges.
L for ambassador catching more stray
these are horrible. never speak again
this video might be even worse than the original only 10 minutes in
No
you know this is a troll video.
If it was a troll video, why go through the effort of making a server and then updating it based on feedback?
@@JakeJakers becouse it works i mean you and others made and are still getting angry about obvious joke items dont you?
You should not be able to bully someone into switching classes as any class, period.
While I agree you should be allowed to play however you like in tf2, there needs to be some kind of game sense that goes into everyone so they are conscious of their team's current class distribution. Playing as the 5th Sniper while your team can't even touch the cart in the last 7 minutes is downright sabotage.
@@theotv5522I was talking about the danger sheild, that just forces pyros to ether stay away from the sniper entirely or switch classes, you should not be able to do that by equipping a weapon.
another day another video of some tf2tuber leaching of grouchs video, im surprice the guys is still trying to make balance videos to be honest.
Uh.... I'm not a TF2tuber. This is literally my first video on the game. I've never interacted with any other tf2tubers, either. Sorry, but I made this video because I wanted to, plain and simple.
@@JakeJakers oh sorry man, my bad, i have seen so many other people talk about that video i just thougth that. btw your video was really well done.
@@mechakirby9576 No Harm done. I imagine it was more of a first reaction. I do want to talk about my own TF2 ideas someday.
Bro acts like he's from Boston.
Imma Forc-ah Nay-Chure!