House Division in Ancient Astrology: Origins of the Different Systems
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- A talk on the different forms of house division in ancient astrology, explaining how the different approaches dividing a chart into twelve houses emerged in Hellenistic astrology, presented by astrologer Chris Brennan.
The three main forms of house division that were used in ancient astrology were whole sign houses, equal houses, and quadrant houses.
The premise of the discussion is that we know as modern astrologers that there are many different forms of house division today, but how did this come to be the case? We can understand the issue better by going back to the beginning of the tradition and seeing how it started, and this may also provide us with some tools for resolving the problem today.
In this talk I try to answer some questions such as:
1. Which systems of house division were used in antiquity?
2. Were some approaches to house division more popular than others?
3. How did ancient astrologers reconcile different approaches to house division?
This episode partially results from a series of debates and discussions that have occurred over the past few years regarding the issue of house division in ancient astrology, beginning with episode 52 of The Astrology Podcast titled Whole Sign Houses: The Best System of House Division, which was then followed by episode 54 with Deborah Houlding titled The Debate About Ancient Systems of House Division. The debate with Houlding then prompted Robert Schmidt to release his own audio recording on the house division issue in June of 2016.
In the summer of 2016 I was in the process of finishing my book on ancient astrology, and I ended up writing a longer and more detailed treatment of the house division issue than I originally intended, which became chapter 11 of my book Hellenistic Astrology: The Study of Fate and Fortune:
hellenisticastrology.com/brenn...
I subsequently presented a summarized version of that chapter in two lectures, first at the Northwest Astrology Conference in Seattle in May of 2017, and then at the United Astrology Conference in Chicago in May of 2018.
This podcast is a slightly expanded version of the same lecture, which is essentially a summary of chapter 11 of my book. For those that are interested in going further into this topic, I would highly recommend reading that chapter of my book, since I was able to go into more detail and give more references in writing than I could in this lecture.
My goal in releasing this lecture is that, together with the chapter I wrote on the subject in my book, this fully outlines my current understanding of how the house division issue developed, as well as much of the evidence that those views are based on.
My hope is that this will help to set a new foundation for some of the discussions about house division in the future, and perhaps suggest some possible paths forward for reconciling the different approaches.
To listen to the audio version of this episode see the podcast website:
theastrologypodcast.com/2019/1...
#TheAstrologyPodcast
Timestamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:07 Questions about house division
00:03:44 Debates on house division
00:12:30 The origins of western astrology
00:23:08 The three main forms of house division
00:26:08 Whole sign house system
00:30:21 The use of Lots
00:35:07 Equal house system
00:39:00 Quadrant house system
00:49:48 The surviving evidence for house division usage in Greco-Roman astrology
00:50:50 Charts from the Hellenistic tradition
01:12:12 The three categories of surviving charts
01:18:40 Conclusions drawn from standalone charts
01:23:36 Literary charts from textbooks
01:35:10 Conclusions drawn from literary charts
01:42:10 Firmicus Maternus on the founders of Hellenistic astrology
01:43:22 Three foundational texts
01:47:46 Twelve-Place system of Hermes
02:01:00 Olympiodorus on angularity
02:06:15 Hermes on the Advantageous Places
02:12:03 The Ascelpius text
02:23:23 Valens drawing on the Asclepius text in discussing equal houses
02:27:28 Origins of equal house MC in culminating decan?
02:28:53 Hephaestio on the Salmeschoiniaka
02:37:17 The Nechepso-Petosiris text
02:46:12 Quadrant houses for dynamic strength
02:48:05 Differing interpretations of source text
02:57:26 Whole sign for topics, quadrant houses for planetary strength
03:00:18 Floating MC and IC points
03:02:24 Valens on the MC
03:14:31 Later Hellenistic synthesis and transmission
03:18:10 Rhetorius delineating planets in houses by sign and degree
03:21:53 Antiochus/Porphyry on using both sign-based and degree-based aspects
03:28:30 Later transmission
03:32:14 Turning point in 9th century that set precedent for prioritising quadrant houses
03:36:22 Why quadrant houses became dominant in the 20th century
03:37:28 Recognizing the symbolic importance of each approach
03:47:50 Conclusion and Chris' book
Wow, Chris. You are nothing if not thorough. Thank you so much for this epic treatment of houses. You always leave no stone unturned. I appreciate that. You are so very generous with your time and knowledge. Thanks!
He is one hundred sure Gemini sun , Libra moon and Sagittarius rising.
He can make one video for more 1
Hour without we be bored.
I love how in-depth you get with your talks and lectures. I am such a nerd! I just eat this stuff up! I love it! And I love the long episodes. I can put them on while I fold laundry, cook dinner, etc. Sometimes when I want people to leave me alone I say I am in a class and, because they don't know anything about astrology and it sounds so technical, they are like "oh ok, sorry" and I get 3 hours of peace and they are none the wiser that I could listen to this any time. Lol. #lifesaver
You are só generous!
Solange Miguel So very true! Thank you Chris! Respect, appreciate and 💕💕💕your work. Looking forward to listening to the full lecture and continuing my studies...
Your research, work and lecture videos are stellar Chris! I can't express how much I appreciate them and I am learning from them. Thank you for all you do.
How timely - I've just started looking at whole sign houses.
Haven't even started listening to the podcast yet but by subject alone I'm giving this video a thumbs up. Thank you, Chris.
Thank you, Chris, for this lecture. I agree with you that knowledge of the history of house division is indispensable. You've helped to create much more clarity and focus in the oftentimes lopsided or ill-informed discussions on this topic!
Fellow Scorpio stellium here and how deep you dig into these topics and how thorough you are is incredible 😍
I find your lectures thorough, thought provoking and engaging. Some aspects of (pardon the pun) the Whole Sign House system make perfect sense to me, others do not. At a fundamental level, I have a problem with the idea that because Whole Sign houses may have predominated during the Hellenistic period, they therefore equal the "correct" house system for today's astrology.
Military strategists no longer use wooden horses to dupe the enemy. Just as the military has evolved over millennia to incorporate new technologies and more sophisticated tools, astrology has also evolved. Some of the tools and techniques used in say the past 100 years have fallen out of favor because other systems have been introduced that, at least in the short term, work better - until a new tool or technique comes along to replace it - or until the collective consciousness shifts and the collective becomes interested in different ideas.
It's futile to argue for the correctness of something simply on the basis of historical significance. I believe all systems contain accurate ways of interpreting the vibrational implications celestial bodies have on individuals and on collective events. Physics has proven that the beliefs of the observer influence the outcomes of experiments. I believe this concept can be applied to astrology as well.
There is this simulator I used to see the sky at the time of my birth and I'm a Sagittarius Ascendant, but in that sky simulator Libra was on the eastern horizon. Loction, time, date, everything is written right. Saturn was extremely close to my Sun as well (gemini on the western horizon), (it's combust in my Natal chart). It felt so enchanting to see that sky. In those ancient times there was no pollution so the astrologers would have seen such pretty skies.
Thank you for this!! This would have taken me forever to research in such depth & to have you explain it in such great detail + for free on RUclips is beyond amazing!!!!!
Thank u for sharing this. it is greatly appreciated.
Cris, Thank you! Your research and writing has enriched my life tremendously.
I hope that someday you can make a video about the separation of the Sidereal and Tropical schools. It is my understanding that at the time astrology evolved (100 BC+) the two zodiacs were aligned so it wasn't an issue.
Personally I find extreme clarity and efficacy in the Sidereal system, even using Hellenistic significations, not the Indian. Tropical works too, but it is different. I would encourage you to experiment with Hellenistic Sidereal.
Highly informative, thank you Chris for your service and commitment.
x HC
Really appreciate this precious resource!! Amazing scholarship :D
I learn so much about astrology from you ! I appreciate your channel so much, thax ✨♥️✨
BEST Astrology show! ❤
Chris, I love the depths you take us to. I really enjoy the history, details, and your beautiful logic. Just gorgeous.
Thank you for sharing all your insights, research and knowledge:)
A ton of food for thought. Great presentation.
It is a great lecture, and thought provoking. Thanks a lot
Amazing lecture, thank you so much for what you do!!
Thank you so much for sharing all this work. Awesome 👏🏼 👏🏼👏🏼
Thank you Chris 🙏💖
Thank you for the great video! I still don't understand why people choose to use anything but the whole sign houses sooo much easier!
Thanks for this!!
Chris is so smart man! So... here is my opinion on Houses:
Chris is almost certain like 100% that whole house system were the preferred calculation of the wheel in ancient times.
However, I can say that as well, this was because they had no computer. It was easier just to indicate the rising sign and the astrologer or student could go from there without much effort counting one sign to another and that's it! It took time to calculate charts and planetary position, even with ephemeris at hand. So even when they did had the midheaven degree, they were accustomed by such house system. I think it was more cultural than a necessity, like to choose what was best, but they chose what was practical.
Here's my idea of houses and when to apply:
Transits + Solar Return + Progressions = Placidus
Presidents + Known and People of Influence = Alcabitius
Sun/Moon cycles + Synastry = Equal house or Whole house sign
What about natal interpretation?
Whole sign is great, very simple, clean, & logical.
yes it’s beautiful, intuitive and simple
This was excellent! I am currently a student of Chris W., Deb H., Lee L Eve D. Electional, Natal, & Horary courses. Really enjoyed!
Thanks for posting this was very helpful
Thank you Chris❤️so very good astrology work very helpful
Lol when I saw the title of the vid, I first thought you were going to be covering the thema mundi vs the current house-sign rulerships. But this is interesting too.
Very interesting the concept of nonagesimal. Kind of a point in favour of the equal houses system.
Excellent neat presentation
Thanks very much💖you’re so generous
I started looking into wholesign and none of it fit. I looked in my natal chart and looked for things that would be different and I interpreted them and I looked up interpretations just to fact check and everything fit way easier with the placidus system than the whole sign system. Then I looked at transits and everything I've looked at relates more with placidus too. And I would love to convert to wholesign because it would make transit work so much easier but it just doesnt fit with me. Is it possible for one system to work for one person and another to work for someone else?
You need to do the next step: move to the sidereal zodiac ;-)
Konstantin Petrash ive looked a lot of sidereal and it also doesnt work super well with me so idk
Samee!! Wholsign doesn t fit, nor natal nor transit...
The reason why it simply doesn’t work is because Tropical astrology is totally flawed and is not “as above so below” which is the building block of astrology.
Try western-siderial with WHS and it will fit for anyone.
Tropical is a classroom astrology that doesn’t relate to planetary location and it’s energies
Wow... I started following you after that episode on Adam’s channel! I remember asking a question in the comments, and you said to go change my chart to Whole Sign System and everything would make more sense. I’ve been using Whole Sign ever since! I follow EA as well , but Whole Sign is so much easier to use. Thank you 🙏
Easier to use is the only reason it was used before. We have the tools to be more accurate now. Look at Prince Harry's chart. Is Jup in 1 or 12. Pretty obvious which is right.
George Aspen , that may very well be true. That’s why videos like this are so helpful. I am an astrology lover, but I don’t know enough about astrology to argue one way or another. All I can do is to keep an open mind, listen and learn.💗
@@michaelically7893 This is a very simplistic view of his chart that doesn't account for any of his other placements, and doesn't incorporate sect or essential dignity. You can't use one single placement in one person's chart to debunk a perfectly functional and useful house system.
Nice audio, so crisp! Listening in right now.
The book is such a trip. Im digging into it. fascinating work!!!!
Thank You!
Very good.
The whole house sign system looks exactly like the circle of 5ths in music theory.
Hi Chris, wonderful video I learnt so much information. Could you suggest any books or helpful places to go to learn more about Mesopotamian and Egyptian astrology?
I love your work, I feel so well informed. Your rising sign is in my ‘house of acquisition’. Go fig.
Thank You soooooooooo much ....! :-)
Chris is the man, yo!
Ty
Youve more than earned my subscribe...well fucking done.
I have been using my Placidus Astrology Chart most of my life of 74 years. Since my ACD is 29 degrees in Capricorn the first house is mostly in Aquarius like in my chart. This makes much more sense to me than in a Whole Sign Chart. In a Whole Sign Chart the first house would be all in Capricorn. Also, in a Whole Sign Chart my planets are in different houses and represents a different interpretation. It just doesn't depict my milestone experiences or my Career choice. I think Whole Sign Houses were done because it was easier to chart as a starting point. Perhaps an Astrologer would make adjustments as the years went on? When an ACD is in the beginning of Astrological Sign, it doesn't really matter, but at the end of a sign, like in my case it makes a huge difference. Also some planets are two houses away since the houses are not all 30 degrees some houses are smaller and larger because of the MC. While the aspects are the same, the houses change everything for me. So my conclusion is that for ACD that are on the cusp near the end of the Astrological Sign, there is a bit of a need of a closer look over time to rectify the house system. But then again I am not an Astrologer and it would be a good to see a podcast on a group of people with ACD at 29 degrees and house system comparisons and their life situations.
I have studied the chart of my family for 4 years, placidus or topocentric are more accurated. Its was relatively easy because we have stelliums.
I’m so glad I found your channel, you help me learn about the history of astrology which is hard to find anywhere else! I have a question about Dorotheus’ chart example at 1:30:13 how is it possible for the Sun to be in Leo in May? 😅 have the constellations shifted that much in 2000 years?
Very Good Information Chris. a question... did the ancient civilizations think the earth was flat, right? then the calculation of their House systems is totally different compered with the system we use today.
This would be a fun round table discussion topic, I know it happens sometimes with guests. But a discussion on who uses what and why, I’m curious. Part of why, if astrology is more focused on psychological, I’m finding some of these patterns in whole sign houses with the entire rulership scenes unleashed. Routing may be reversed, but.. I wonder if reading natal in quadrants is still accurate by lesser rulers.
I’m not at the “notes stage” yet with Valens anthology, I did read sections on referenced “in defense of quadrant” citations to find what was said in this episode. They are very specific, but Valens also has certain commentaries to state ethics and responsibility to “scientific method” when I using techniques.
I’ll give one example which I did like related to a valens technique, I’ll keep it traditional. The roughly 30 degree turning to find powerful planets by degrees, virgo ascendant (day chart) with Venus mars conjunct in libra within 14/15 degrees, Jupiter is in a superior sign based square which is worth of a “rectification” test being so close to a 10th, but I’d say NOW that it seems to stay in the 11th. Leo sun, 1st triplicity is a 12th house sun which.. Venus a lesser benefic, with a “weak” trip ruler and amped up malefic, mars caused some major setbacks. But as Valens says, when Jupiter likely took over, mars isn’t as capable and I’m extremely gun shy of trying to actually DO anything since there was a long period of mars disruption with anything I’ve tried to do. Yet, Jupiter is obviously still in a superior position with extremely limited damage, a lot falls into a Saturn 1st in terms of hurdles and setbacks. An interesting thing, though, is that Valens method ends up roughly 28 (slightly over) degrees, i tracked the Saturn return which ends up roughly 29, I didn’t get exact on it. Having a 1st Saturn, I did pinpoint the return was more “who was I, who am I know, and where am I wanting to go?” I view it as possible that quadrants are psychological in that we get spacial awareness over time. 2nd is aversion, but we can obviously dress ourselves and engage with possessions, at birth, this is obviously complicated. Values and livelihood? These are more “hidden”, but just as some say the 8th can bring about psychologists, that’s often helping investigate the cadent houses of others. And, even though Venus and mars conj “shifts angular”, themes are still very 2nd house. However, asc point is in mars terms. It’s like looking at eclipses, taurus in the 9th often seems relational. A big one was a solar eclipse in taurus in Jupiter terms, Jupiter is ruler of 7th. Yet, this also dealt with a lot of 9th topics. As far as I’ve seen, the only thing significant about the 11/08/22 eclipse that I had “signals” to watch for is that it’s another eclipse (lunar) in that same terms.
The most virgo thing I could say which is often the most mars terms related thing also, I lean towards dropping modern views, breaking the systems apart, then reassembling them to get a better idea on the mechanics and drop the parts that do not work properly. Though, it’s purposely stated hyperbolic. The Buddhist wheel of life, it’s useful in ways like the 12 links being similar to the 12 houses where it’s a meditation, just as in astrology. I want to take the thema mundi, break down the symbolism to a bare minimum and break down how signs/houses get their significations by static meaning, then how they interact (by aspect). I never found degrees that interesting until connecting that they can be symbolic of a minor planetary rulership, I haven’t spent much time on decans. I also want to (personally) look more at charts with exalted Jupiter’s in the 11th to see how often those natives (virgo asc) have messed up 4th houses that inadvertently work to their benefit. Like Steve Jobs being adopted. My 4th isn’t as “bad”, but dealing with my fathers death I did discover that I had better opportunities stemming from my parents divorce and not having any relationship with my fathers side of the family. This could be looked at with all exaltations, but I’m selfish only being curious with my own. ❤️ well, an exalted Venus in 5th, there could be a very gnarly 12th. Yet, like Jupiter, a nice 7th. Though, night chart would be preferred.
Anyways. I enjoyed listening to this again after actually reading some of the texts. I’ve read some parts that seemed taken “out of context” by where they appeared in the anthology, which was covered well here. Psychologically, WS and more full rulerships paint a more interesting picture. Astrologers like to highlight mars i libra, from the perspective of Venus she’s in conjunction with the sect malefic, in mercury Leo 12th terms and in moon (Aquarius 6th) Decan. That opposition comes into play with these topics, and they’re in the “power degrees”. Mercury in mars terms, mars Decan/moon in Venus terms, mercury Decan. Jupiter, just in Saturn terms and moon Decan. It’s a more complex dynamic that’s more detailed (specific) and the WS approach makes more sense. It’s similar in quadrants, it’s just more accurate in description in WS. Rahu is another placement (being in conj with asc) that’s worthy of rectification since (in under a minute) it can be in Saturn terms which makes sense to me.
One detail, even though my MC doesn’t ever move signs, I can say in equal, the point moves to the 9th which is what shifted at my Saturn return. My “mc” concerns moved more 9th, this is also when I started taking astrology more seriously using it as a method of what I stated with a 1st house Saturn return. Astrology/philosophy/Alan watts/Jungian analysis/etc.. they all became major topics of 10th focus. (It just barely moves to the 9th), so I do somewhat wonder if, like progressions, angular points can move a little even though the WS stays the same. But, Neptune is with the IC with the possible mc shift.
This one I’ll me listening to at least twice because it’s my biggest issue with astrology so far.
As of now, I appear to be using a mixture of whole sign and quadrant; I mostly want a fully thought out opinion where, now, I’m sort of they work fine in their own ways. I need to form a complete opinion on intercepted signs. I can kind of see it as useful, while thinking there’s another route to end up in the same place.
Just because I was surprised there was a whole episode on it and noticed it’s apparently on RUclips.. the debate on house of sex. That was entertaining where I honestly think there should be a more fun round table episode just for fun episode. Semi related, I decided to look into the myth on Pluto where I kind of see where the interpretations come from while disagreeing with how it’s applied astrology wise in some instances where I think I’m very comfortable separating Pluto from scorpio and the more “sexual” attachment seems to be a controversial topic among Greeks where it was used as an explanation for seasons. But the core myth of a weaker god that prefers to exist in its own realm only rewarding the most valiant who can endure his tests.. this sounds more like the astrological Pluto. I’m still getting into that myth also still with mixed feelings on Neptune. The house debate on proper assignment was interesting, though, I’m with planets as opposed to specific houses. If using the 7th, I have 7th pisces with Jupiter in the 11th so if I became an astrologer you’d definitely not want to invite me to any conventions. Could be some mischief.. (kidding) It’s actually an interesting angle with some parts of the whole sign debate where.. I have Capricorn in the 5th house ruled by the 12th so I’ve had 2 potential children die of miscarriage. So I tend to view the 5th only related to procreation and children. 7th, not quite, but if it’s a system of quadrant then 8th could be.. the 12th not being discussed other than mentioned is a crime in that I’m notorious (having 12th placements) saying “the idea is better than the actual thing”.. is it the 12th? Or SN in the 7th? 🤔 I actually view it as a large combination mainly planets where.. if you use traditional rulers and apply mars and Venus as the combination you should have 4 signs in opposed houses which better define it. Like, virgo ascendant would be 2nd and 8th, 3rd and 9th axis. 12th.. a friend who’s a psychiatrist tried really hard to get me to read 50 Shades and I absolutely refused, she had to learn about that for work and everyone rolled her eyes at her. She snuck a Jungian book on me by mailing it to me which went over the archetypes with fantasies. Like, Prometheus is a martyr complex fantasy about submission. Anyone really into uranus you could blind side them with that one.. 😄 “what placement makes an exhibitionist?”
With houses, I kind of do use a mix of whole sign and Koch having a preference for Koch depending on what I’m using. I think flexibility is important. Initially I thought whole sign was kind of lazy, but I found mixing it to actually make charts more interesting/accurate. My reluctance towards whole sign tends to gravitate to not liking how houses are described.
Figured I’d leave a newer comment to say that I complete get this topic now. Not completely, this podcast (as a whole) made me switch to whole signs where I didn’t get the point of quadrants at all to studying a technique just to pass time where they suddenly started to make sense. “Eminence” techniques are so extreme (the mix of looking at Patrick Watsons work/blog plus someone posting about career indicators made me randomly deep dive into it). There was something about looking at modern “eminent” people with their whole sign charts at those indicators while flipping back and forth between their whole and quadrant houses that made it click. So I listened to this again where I probably listened to it early into deep diving; I actually got what was being said and looking at charts fits into a line of thinking I had. I definitely think quadrants work great as secondary system to where it made me finally commit to reading list I didn’t want to commit to. I sort of wonder if.. using multiple house systems can be a headache of mental gymnastics, but if a person was so advanced in doing so, they just wouldn’t necessarily need to use the whole sign base. I’m still wanting to fully read the texts first hand, but an astrologer like yourself could immediately visualize a natal chart house just from saying “virgo ascendant”. Plus, some techniques that use quadrants seem to be part of the initial process. Plus, in many cases, whole signs are there by base anyways. Those older techniques don’t seem to be used more modernly. A chart like my own, there wouldn’t be anything too drastic while not using whole signs leaves out a fundamental base. This stands out with an extreme technique like eminence in my own chart where there’s quite a bit of extremely fortunate placements.
For humorous anecdotal purposes, I’ll put it by a social media game.
If I were next in line as king? I’d find a way to forfeit to have a quiet life as an advisor. What if I were a dictator? I’d promote someone else and run a “shadow government”. More low key, if I were an astrologer? I’d work with other astrologers or marry one and be the assistant. This is easy to see in my natal whole signs with this little bit of possibility of the contrary or a mix. It’s definitely a “late bloomer”. Physical health predictions? I’m extremely healthy and have barely aged in 20+ years. Shows up in these techniques within eminence.
A technique that is part of why I decided to deep dive not thinking it was in astrology that I watched someone use, the spear bearers. I kinda think some may be going too literal with their interpretations. Some may think there’s a literal spear bearer which may be a case in some cases.. Demetra George wrote about testing if Bernie Sanders chart was either/or, he may not have had Presidential eminence with that type of spear bearer, but when Clinton was working on a campaign with the head of the dnc to smear him and possibly destroy his career plus eject him from the party: it went the other way. The DNC was hacked, Clinton became a political exile, leadership in the DNC was removed, and so on. It could be literal in terms of the hackers and Wikileaks, etc.. but sanders would appear to have spear bearers protecting his reputation. Not the President, but you wouldn’t have AOC and the “squad” if not not his campaign. Plus, Biden’s inauguration was overshadowed by Bernies mittens. It looks like some techniques with quadrants were not so much about what a lot of astrologers use for practice, but how it may alter how planets behave as said in this cast. The problem of quadrant houses by number? I guess you could use like 5-10 and just see what does what and goes where, but core techniques seem whole sign based. I’m trying to figure out a triplicity system right now, so far I’m on the 1 and no 3rd, but with a cooperative. We’ll see.
I really enjoyed this episode a lot this time.
Wow..how did I miss there a year ago..Must not have been ready to recieve!😇3 planets in first!Virgo asc..Mars 23..Pluto.12.Uranus 15...No more meds for me..I am who I am!!😇😍😍😉
On the Stand Alone charts. There might be more of one kind because that's what most could afford. But the more detail ones where for people who had more money. 🤔
Thanks for this very detailed history on this topic Chris. I enjoyed the historical context and research rigor.
I do disagree with a couple of your conclusions.
You say: 3:45:07 "It would be nice if all the astrologers got on the same page at some point, and there was more consistency when it comes to the issue of house division in the Western astrological tradition."
Why would this be a good thing?
It might turn out that astrology is similar to mathematics in that there are different axiomatic assumptions with different systems. Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem shows that any system can either choose to be consistent or complete, but you can't have both. Any consistent system will be incomplete, meaning that there will be blindspots that you will not be able to see. The diversity and plurality of house division systems may actually produce techniques that don't work across other systems. So I'd lean more on embracing the multiplicity and diversity more than consistency.
3:45:55 "Choose whatever approach you're going to use to house division deliberately and to know why you're doing it and to have a reason for doing it that's not just practical, but is also conceptual and philosophical so that you have some sort of justification for why you're using one approach to house division rather than another."
Then you go on to imply that you won't respect people if they don't have a historically-grounded philosophical justification, and if they're just using the house system of their teacher or from an ancient text book.
How do you really know that this is the best method for how someone goes about choosing a house system?
What if pragmatic lived experience or a synchronicity-filled omen of symbolic pregnancy is actually a way better method of determining what house system you should use in a specific context?
What if rolling the dice, pulling a Tarot card, or casting the I Ching to determine what house system to use at any given moment context turns out to a better method?
How would you know?
How could you test it?
This may be what worked for you, but how do you know this is the best method for other people to use?
What if the best house division system has yet to be created? So is knowing a historical precedence really that important?
I guess I just don't think we know enough about the foundations of how astrology actually works to be able to be so prescriptive as to how people should approach solving this house division choice dilemma.
My philosophical justification for questioning your suggested approach relies upon the limits of mathematics that we discovered through Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems. You can either choose consistency or completeness, and if we want to use astrology as a comprehensively complete system, then we need to be willing to embrace that there are inconsistencies across these different house systems. And in order to avoid the principle of explosion, then it's probably best to not randomly shift between house systems in the middle of a reading to avoid contradictions, but to stick with a single system within the context of a single reading unless there are deliberate switches between systems to get different perspectives or to use different techniques.
Math's Existential Crisis
ruclips.net/video/YrKLy4VN-7k/видео.html
Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem
ruclips.net/video/O4ndIDcDSGc/видео.html
Anyway, thanks for the lecture. This gave me a great historical context for the evolution of different systems, and I suspect that each approach provides unique insights that the other approaches don't. So I guess I've received a lot of inspiration from Gödel because I think he provides some justifications for why I think diversity & multiplicity is a more reasonable goal than consistency of house division choices.
@Erwin Varga In my mind each of these have their own cultural context and meaning. I don't agree that any one of these has inherent value above and beyond the other. They're like lenses into reality, and each of the approaches prioritize different relationships and qualities. The Tropical Zodiac is what the Western Tradition uses, and it prioritizes the vernal equinox as the starting point. It's a system that's origin is relative to the Sun's relationship to the Earth, and the moment when there's roughly an equal amount of lightness & darkness in a day independent of latitude and longitude. The Sideral Zodiac is what Indian or Jyotish uses, and prioritizes the celestial sphere of fixed stars as the origin point, and so it's more about the earth's relationship to the entire universe and matrix of relationships of stars beyond just the sun (this could be in part why there's more of a focus on Karma & fate in the Jyotish tradition).
Aristotle defined time as two objects being related to each other. So the Tropical Zodiac measures time prioritizing the earth relative to the sun and the Sidereal Zodiac measures time of the fixed stars & constellations relative to the earth. The cultural context for Tropical Zodiac is for Western Astrology, and the cultural context for Sideral is Indian / Jyotish Astrology (sometimes also referred to as Vedic Astrology). It's not like one is inherently better than the other. They both work. Listen to Rob Hand talk about this paradox about how could it possibly work. Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems provide insights because within their own systems the Tropical and Sidereal Zodiacs are consistent, but relative to each other they're inconsistent and have paradoxes. So if you use both at the same time, then you'll get contradictions. What sign is any given planet *really* in? One could argue that BOTH Tropical & Sidereal are consistent, but incomplete. You could alternate in between them in order to get a more complete picture of reality. There are certain techniques of Jyotish that may assume certain metaphysical assumptions of what system you're using. Can you just swap out techniques without using the entirety of the cultural context of that system? I don't know. It's an open question. But there are folks like Kenneth Miller who use both, and switch in between the techniques, and so it's probably best to ask folks who actually practice both in order to hear their perspective on how they work together. It could also be argued that you should use the astrology for whatever cultural context you're in, but I'm suspicious of that argument as it would imply that you shouldn't practice Jyotish in the West, and not do Western astrology in other cultural contexts. I suspect that it has more to do with conforming with whatever the axiomatic assumptions of each system might be.
The same Consistent or Complete argument holds up for the house system debate. Whatever house system you choose will be consistent, but there will be contradictions when you start mashing them up together. Paraconsistent logic allows for a healthy amount of contradiction as long as it doesn't explode. So you could philosophically argue that in order to get a more complete picture of any topic, then you might need to use multiple house systems.
As far as Whole Sign vs Placidus specifically. The Whole sign house measures time in a sign in a transcendent way that's the planets relative to the ecliptic of the sun. There is less emphasis on the latitude and longitude to divide the houses. The Whole Sign house system starts whereever the Ascendant is at. All quadrant house systems divide up the other houses as some ratio between the Ascendant and Midheaven. Placidus in particular divides up the houses in a way that roughly aligns to the Planetary Hours. So you can look at where the Sun is located in a Placidus Chart, and then be able to approximate what Planetary hour you're in. So to me Placidus Houses emphasize your relationship to where you're at on the earth, and how you experience the unfolding of time in an embodied way. And Whole Signs perhaps have more of a transcendent feel because you're looking at the houses relative to the Ascendant only, but mostly using more Pythogorean & Ptolemic math-inspired relationships (through Whole Sign aspects), that focuses more on dividing the planet's house position relative to the 30-degrees of a sign rather than it's position of the Geocentric perspective of the planets given your specific latitude AND longitude. So if you're looking at using Planetary Hours Magic relative to a chart, then maybe you want to use Placidus. If you want to look at the more transcendent aspects of character or the quality of a moment in time that will be universally experienced by everyone on the planet independent of where they're at, then maybe take a look at Whole Signs.
There hasn't been a truly phenomenological approach of trying to map out all of these different qualities, and trying to specify what types of questions may be better answered given what problems you are trying to be solve. Some folks really like to use Regiomontanus for Horary for example. Jeffrey Wolf Green really likes using Porphyry for his flavor of Evolutionary Astrology. Frank Clifford really likes working with Equal House system for Solar Arcs, perhaps because anytime there's a house ingress, then the planet is also most likely making a Ptolemic-aspect to the Ascendant. So I think it's totally fine to trust your teacher's embodied experience of the qualities and character of different house systems, and leave it to your own embodied experiences to see what works best for you. It would be nice to try to dig into some of the philosophical reasoning behind these different methods of dividing space, but I don't think it can be isolated from embodied experience. The reasons are experiential based, and often in a sub-symbolic form that is difficult to articulate. Why do you like the flavors or foods that you like in any given moment? It's a such a deep experiential level that can be hard to articulate.
So for me, it's less about advocating that everyone start to collapse and use a consistent system (i.e. Whole Signs as Chris implies here in this lecture). And it's more about recognizing the dynamic between consistency and completeness. If you choose consistency, you'll be incomplete. I personally advocate for a pluralistic approach of using as many or all of the house systems because each have techniques that are unique to it, and have their own tradeoffs and character to them. Just don't use them ALL at the same time as you'll get contradictions. You can get a more complete picture of reality, but you have to deal with the paradoxes and inconsistencies. You'll NEVER be able to eliminate those inconsistencies philosophically, and so that's why I think a better approach is to embrace each of the house systems as being a unique lens into reality. If time really is the relationship of two objects relative to each other as people like Aristotle says -- as well as other folks with a relational metaphysics like Whitehead's Process Philosophy or Carlo Rovelli's Relational Quantum Mechanics -- then maybe a good way to think about it is that each of the house systems are looking at time through a lens that prioritizes different relationships. So then it becomes a matter of looking each of the different house systems approach for dividing space up, and so then trying to figure out the quality of the character of how that gives different lenses into time.
@@kentbye1830 Talking about context, what's your view about the overall hemisphere problem with tropical astrology? I mean, if the zodiac starts at the vernal point, well, for the southern hemisphere that's actually the autumnal point so it doesn't makes too much sense to me, yet at the same time I've seen work quite well that northern based tropical zodiac in southern birth-charts.-
@@lea1822 I can only speak to my direct experiences of living in the Northern Hemisphere, and in speaking with astrology folks who are either from or live in the Southern Hemisphere (mostly Australia & New Zealand), then they feel that the delineations seem to still work. To me it suggests looking at the planets as a sort of Platonic object that's independent of the earthly seasons. The Western Zodiac and significations have seemingly such a strong correlation to the seasonal dynamics, and so it is a bit baffling that those same significations wouldn't be inverted in the southern Hemisphere (i.e. move Cancer to the Summer solstice in January and Capricorn & Winter Solstice to June.) This would would be quite a revolutionary act, but there's little to no will to experiment or do it. Maybe it simply wouldn't work at all. Or perhaps it would totally work, and no one has thought to do it yet. Just as Hellenistic Astrology has brought back concepts like Sect and the balance of lightness and darkness, then perhaps there's an equivalent polarity between the Northern & Southern Hemispheres. Philosophically, it feels like something this could be justified. And perhaps there's an element of having a critical mass of people believing it and doing it before it would work. But in the absence of any evidence in favor this idea, then I think we might have to assume that it's completely independent of seasonal significations, and that it's more of a Platonic patterning of polarities that works universally independent of whether it's in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere.
@@kentbye1830 The problem lies here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema_Mundi If you read the item "rationale" sub item "planetary domiciles" you can read how it's assumed that the position assigned to the Sun as a ruler of Leo was based in the fact that it was the zodiacal location of the Sun coincident with the middle of the septentrional summer. Since the entire scheme of rulerships, detriment, exaltation and falls is buiit upon choosing the Sun as ruler of Leo, it seems that if that's the true logic behind that rulership, quite a lot of the building falls into pieces when you switch hemisphere (of course aspects will remain, and house position will remain no matter what you do with the signs).
Now, I'm not sure that the explanation provided in that wikipedia article is correct. Maybe is not. I will try to study and gather information about it to come to arrive better conclussions. Still what seems quite clear is that the zodiac starts at the spring equinox because of a seasonal event. The seasonal link there is quite obvious. So one should change number of signs in the southern hemisphere, even if all the other things remain constant. I mean that Libra would be the "0" degree of the zodiac adjusted for hemisphere instead of the "180" degree, even if still we keep considering libra as the fall of the Sun, and we don't switch signs. That change would be a minor one, maybe, only modyfing the numeric nature of each sign. But the problem is that it's difficult to also deny that there is some correlation between houses and signs, and the first house is associated with the first sign. So if we keep everything constant except for changing the numeric order of signs in the south, the problem would arise with the houses. Because now the house one, associated to the "sign one" would be tied to libra concepts instead of aries ones and so that which seems to be a minor adjust ends having great impact -unless we also say that houses and signs are non-related.
Empirical research would be important in this matter to arrive better conclusions.
@@lea1822 Great points all around. I think you're pointing to some of what would appear to be either contradictions or gaps in the philosophical grounding this specific essential dignity... OR it may ultimately not be dependent upon Hemispheric differences and could still work and provide valuable insights regardless of Hemisphere. So even if the rulerships were originally set with a seasonal rationale, the seasons may not have any causal influence for why they work.
Ultimately each of these astrological traditions are a set of axiomatic assumptions. These are fundamental rules that are passed along from generation to generation. Which rules are important and are passed along is constantly in flux, and it's taken hundreds of years for some of these axiomatic presuppositions to be recovered and reintroduced to us now. Which set of axiomatic assumptions to follow and why will always be open to debate because there's really no way of achieving a consensus.
But I do think it's important questions to think about because it does reflect upon the process of folk knowledge and social epistemology that is at the heart of the oral tradition of astrology, as reflecting upon what we can really know and how we know it can help us to believe truths and avoid falsehoods, and potentially refine the practice of astrology itself. There's lots of philosophical approaches to knowledge, and one that I find compelling is that it's a combination of truth, belief, and justification.
A sort of radical empiricism breaks down quickly in astrology because human experience isn't falsifiable or repeatable. How do you test null hypotheses in astrology? You would need completely different astrological traditions, but these other systems just provide a different lens into reality. The most confounding thing is that different branch of astrology have a broad range of different axiomatic assumptions, and yet each one has it's own merit and validity.
Perhaps Astrology is more of a narrative technology than scientific process. Maybe it's just an evolved ways to translate our direct phenomenological experiences into stories that provide pragmatic reflections and insights into how the universal archetypal patterns are manifesting in our lives and our relationship to the larger collective at any given moment.
But I also tend to look at Astrology as more of a mathematical structure. Afterall, Wigner's "unreasonable effectiveness of math" and how match objects interface with reality is an open question in the philosophy of mathematics. But looking at astrology through the lens of math opens the door to Gödel's Incompleteness theorems, which says that each system of logic can either be consistent or complete, but it's mathematically impossible to do both. So each branch of Astrology has it's own consistency, but it's incomplete. You can't see everything. Other branches illuminate things that are invisible to other systems. As a whole, the different branches allows Astrology to be more complete, but there are paradoxes and inconsistencies between these branches (whether it's tropical vs sidereal, what sign system, or Northern vs Southern Hemisphere).
Rather than trying to aim towards a singular truth in Astrology, then I'm more of a fan of pluralistically being open to any and all possibilities. There are a plurality of truths that get revealed based upon what rules you're following, and jumping between different systems both changes the rules you follow and the realities that can be revealed.
How far does this go? Can you just make up new rules and still have it work? It seems likely that the answer is "Yes." Whether it's hypothetical planets or Jenn Zahrt's Fantasteroids, then the boundaries of what's possible are very pliable. Perhaps it's more of a matter of getting a critical mass of belief and usage that is the key differentiating factor. So perhaps the main function of having a coherent philosophical rationale is to get more people to believe and participate in the cultural propagation and evolution of that rule. Perhaps that's the biggest factor. No one really knows. It's an open philosophical question as to why any of this works in the first place. These types questions & discussions point to some deeper questions about the foundations of astrology itself, but also makes us reflect on what we belief to be true, and how we justify that to ourselves and others.
It would be more convincing if you gave actual examples of charts through the lend of whole sign vs other systems and show us how whole signs is more accurate please DO THIS
Can't be done. Look at prince Harry's chart. His Jup has to be in 12th.
@@michaelically7893 can you elaborate as to why George?
The purpose of this lecture was just to talk about the house division issue from a purely historical perspective, in terms of how it got started, not necessarily to demonstrate the validity of one approach over another. I have a lot of example charts in my book and course that demonstrate the use of the whole sign house system in practice.
@@TheAstrologyPodcast I am well versed in reading charts and have definitely found (apart from my own chart) whole sign Houses to work better in lots of charts I have read. I am no expert by any means I just would have liked to see a side by side comparison of the same chart. One using whole signs, and another, a quadrant based system to see how whole sign interpretations hold more weight.
I am yet to purchase your book because I didn't know that there were examples as you've mentioned Chris. I will definitely be buying it now. I have read great reviews on it
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Isn't the main reason why whole sign houses was used initially is due to the fact most people did not know the exact time of their birth let alone the exact date, because they didn't have an easy way to accurately know what hour, minute, and second it was at any given point in the day or night? We now have automated calendars and clocks whereas they had to look at the shadow cast by a sundial which only tells you roughly what time it was during the day but no real way to tell at night. Whole sign was the foundation upon which more advanced techniques were built. Technology has come a long way since the Hellenistic times, which has given us the ability to make more accurate calculations and therefore more specific chart interpretations. My chart varies significantly from whole sign to placidus, and I personally relate with my placidus chart placements more especially when it comes to interpreting transits.
Not necessarily, because they were regularly using techniques like the Lot of Fortune that required an exact Ascendant degree to calculate, so it isn't correct to assume that they couldn't or were not calculating the exact degree of the Ascendant or Midheaven. Even in the instances when they did calculate those degrees they would still often use whole sign houses for topics.
I bought the book. 37usd eBay.
Hello and Blessings Chris. This is fascinating. It probably had something to do with whether the person was at a certain level of prominence and educated or not. Prominent people from everywhere traveled to Egypt to learn the mysteries and sciences which of course astrology is part of. The simplistic ones probably did not know anything more than their basic information whereas a more educated or prominent person would have been born at certain times of the year based upon their family or tribe status. The 1st, 2nd, 3rd son each were expected to do certain things by way of profession. Females the same. Their lineage and info would have been documented to uphold their status. 99% of people were never educated on any level. Also, maybe the basic ones are used for different things sort of like how we use passports. So for instance If they needed a doctor, the doctor would use their premade calculated chart to prescribe certain harmonics and even light to heal as well as diagnose illness based upon the standard correlations to the signs known ailments and correlating body parts, Male , female, born at an auspicious time of year or not etc etc etc. Obviously the more detailed and informative the chart the more prominent the person. I wonder if any pharaohs or dynastic charts survive today. Can you imagine reading King Tut or Nefertitis chart? I am sure they had them because they had the highest levels of astrologers and teachers from everywhere at their disposal in their college and I believe they were initiated into the mysteries so they were probably astrologers or astrologically literate at the very very least. Also, the fact that they understood precessional astrology and knew obviously about the ecliptic and understood the techniques so it was most likely one of the things taught of the seven sacred sciences. So a larger web of staggering interconnected practices based around the center principles which are universal truths. I hope this made sense I was typing while listening. I also am only know just learning so I am certainly no expert but based upon the time it seems likely what you are saying is correct. You also really have to figure in the religious persecution of the era as well after the abrahamic religions were born and the mysteries were taken underground and only known to the initiated because of persecution. Casting pearls before swine and all that. Everyone wants to claim the origins but it seems everyone has also lost the keys to the mysteries which is pretty darned telling of the over all sacred knowledge within the communities. Blessing to you for doing this is has filled in alot of the gaps, also Dr. Carmen Boulter did a lecture at cpak 2019 where she talks about the timeline and Egyptian precessional astrology maybe her talk may have some useful information.
Currently Saturn sextile Neptune too
Good point!
How hard could it be to test this just find a persons exact birth and exact death in each sign maybe do 20 each because docs dont always do times correctly test out each technique find the accurate way and lets fix this i dont know do you know who is correct who is wrong and pin point an accurate system so people can take this as a mathmatical science instead of who do vodo
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Is that your come watch my video face? Jk great content.
I don´t understand what for the order of the houses is counterclockwise !!! It goes completely against the behavior of the planets, specially the Sun. According to this illogical arrangement when the Sun rises it jumps from house 1 to house 12 and then it begins to come dawn to house 11, house 10 and so on, finishing his daily journey in house 1. It is like to say that a river is born in the mouth of the river then it flows to middle river course and it finishes or ends its tour in the mountains. !!! NONSENSE !!!
Any comments about this isue will be highly valued !!! Thanks !!!