Why Was Placidus the Most Popular House System in Astrology?
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- Опубликовано: 26 июл 2024
- An interview with Anthony Louis about the history of how Placidus became the most popular system of quadrant house division used in western astrology in modern times.
In late 20th and early 21st century astrology Placidus is the most popular house system, and it is usually the default house system in most software programs, which makes it the system that most people begin their studies of astrology with.
The question is: how did this come to be the case? Especially since there are other forms of quadrant house division that are available, such as Porphyry or Alcabitius houses, what led to the widespread acceptance of Placidus?
It turns out, the origins of the Placidus house system and its popularization lie in the 17th century, and it was partially based on an an attempt to reinterpret a controversial passage from the work of the 2nd century astrologer Claudius Ptolemy.
The genesis of this discussion was an article on Anthony’s blog titled Why are Placidus Houses so Popular?
Our goal here was to talk about some of the arguments outlined in that post, and go into some areas in greater detail, to understand the history of house division.
While our previous episode on the origins of the different forms of house division in ancient astrology covered the early history of house division, the purpose of this episode is to fill in some missing pieces about the later history from the Renaissance era forward into modern times.
You can find out more information about Anthony on his website:
TonyLouis.wordpress.com
This is episode 244 of #TheAstrologyPodcast
For the show notes and other info visit:
theastrologypodcast.com/2020/...
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Timestamps
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:30 Anthony's background
00:01:30 Overview of Placidus house system
00:04:06 Why the house debate gets intense
00:04:39 Why Placidus is the default
00:12:05 Who was Placidus?
00:17:20 Ptolemy's influence
00:22:16 Ptolemy's difficult chapter on house division
00:24:40 Primary direction and house division
00:25:34 James Holden's papers on house division
00:28:06 Regiomontanus and Ptolemy
00:35:11 Placidus misunderstood Ptolemy on house division
00:40:30 Different interpretations of Ptolemy
00:44:27 The impact of Placidus
00:45:58 Placidus' book forbidden by the Catholic church
00:51:25 Placidus house division popular by end of 17th century
00:54:20 Text of Ptolemy's paragraph on house division
00:55:50 Placidus house division was seen as innovative
00:59:40 John Partridge was a proponent of Placidus
01:01:50 Infighting among astrologers
01:07:15 Lilly removed Regiomontanus tables
01:09:00 US astrologer Luke Broughton used Placidus
01:14:20 Other major astrologers that endorsed Placidus
01:16:15 20th century timing techniques replaced primary direction
01:20:05 Positive developments that come from misunderstanding ancient astrologers
01:22:19 Computerized astrology and Placidus
01:26:50 The house system Anthony uses
01:31:08 Porphyry houses
01:32:40 Chart changes based on house divisions
01:35:10 Indian astrology and Placidus
01:36:55 Other points about Placidus and Whole Sign
01:39:08 Anthony's blog
01:40:39 Anthony's book on horary
01:43:05 Closing remarks
Let me know what system of house division you use in the comments below, if you have any questions about this episode, or discussion topics related to house division that you would like to see me cover in future episodes!
Using predominantly Porphyry, but I keep testing Whole Sign Houses with transits.
Use Whole Sign House and sometimes Regiomontanus
Whole signs for Natal , Electional and Horary.
More than over 30 years Astrologer here (whit a capital A) Placidus is an incredible important system if you, as an Astrologer, are into psychology, psychiatry, and profiling.
Astrology has many different directions. But if you’re into Astrology for the above mentioned reasons: Placidus is it.
Placidus is my preferred system, since I first learned to read charts in 1983, although I have been trying out whole signs for a couple of years too. Very interesting to hear the historical background to Placidus, very interesting and informative podcast as usual.
I have used Placidus for 25 years. I switched to the Whole House system 2 weeks ago, and everything seems to resonate a lot better about me...
For me, placidus seems accurate, it resonates with my personality and life events.
Placidus. I’ve studied my chart and my friends and family over and over using different house systems ...all I know very well. Placidus feels accurate to me.....Though I’d love to believe in equal where all my personal planets move to the 11th house. But my life story and personality couldn’t be more 12th house.
I'm fairly new to astrology, but when I study my chart I feel a similar way... Equal house system made a lot of sense to me, logically speaking, but non equal house systems explained the nuances of my life much better, specially why certain things are difficult for me, even though in theory my planets say it should be easier. To be fair, most house systems don't change my placements (probably because most of my planets are in the 2nd decan), Whole Sign system doesn't change those placements much either...
But, with Placidous I have an interception... I thought that didn't matter much, but I saw an astrologer talking about her Libra-Aries intercepted and some article about having double house cusps on Cancer-Capricorn... The sincronicity blew my mind. Most importantly, with Placidus my North Node falls in the 1st house instead of the 2nd house... And I am self-aware enough to know that my 1st house has been even more difficult (causing inner conflict) and out-of my comfort-zone to tap into than my 2nd.
Loba Étoile like Alissa I too have an intercepted Aries/Libra, different house systems like porphyry and Koch have them in 4/10 & 5/11. But with all my personal planets intercepted in the 12th like Sun, Saturn and Moon those house systems too work for me but so far not like Placidus. Also, Vedic because my 12th house is so prominent my placements in Pisces also resonates....especially after reading each nakshatras. But Equal just isn’t working for all the charts I’ve studied.
Whole house seems easier to me too (which does not fairly correspond with my life experience, though I hope it does...)
By equal house system, is that the one that's somewhat like whole-sign but the degree of the houses are based on that of the ascendant?
could you help me with my birth chart?
I heard someone once say that placidus is more the psychological factor and how you view yourself aka your birthchart,
but that whole sign is a lot more accurate when it comes to you and your interactions and transits, and I have found that to be quite accurate.
I did relate to placidus a lot when I first got into astrology, but when transits were happening it just wasn‘t really fitting at all, and I wondered why, then I realized that it was bc I wasn‘t reffering to whole sign houses.
When I started to observe the transits with the whole sign houses it made so much sense.
But there is some truth to both.
For example last year with this whole Cap Energy, in placidus I have all my cap placaments in 2 house, and it‘s true i did loose my job and drastically changed my relationship to money but it was all immensly psychological and I had the biggest anxiety and depression period in my life ever, which would make it a lot more whole sign 3 house.
Just like with my gemini moon, placidus is 7th house, but whole sign is 8th
and my scorpio sun is just behind my rising sign, making it my 12th house instead of 1th house. But again I relate to both.
I think when we search for signs we will always find something that we can relate too.
that‘s why vedic astrology works too, and even though in the beginning I was like whaaat no way this is my chart, what everything just changed. But after a while you can see and make new connections bc our mind works a lot with symbolisms and methaphores.
and sometimes when we just really want to believe something we run into self fulffiling metaphores and if we really look for a sign we sure will see it.
Anyways I have personally found that when checking the astro weather and going through life that whole sign house works best for me and also for others too when it comes to transits.
This was very helpful & relatable
I use Placidus first, then whole sign second. Im 52 and Placidus is most accurate, to my experience of my life, it also includes interceptions, which I have in my chart and again fits with my life experience. Whole signs is also relevant, but not as much as placidus. I havent figured out why, but they both work.
I came to think of whole sign system as a good heavy broad strokes system and where to focus your predictions. Placidus may fine tune the information somehow. The only thing for me is, many times when I see a significant Astro event in my chart, nothing really happened and life went on, so I searched the internet and found another Hellenistic astrologer that led me to Chris B. And he teaches the techniques of annual profections and Zodiacal releasing that seem to hit the target more accurately than placidus did. Now I need to re visit placidus and try to synchronize them somehow to try to see if it can tell me things in more detail.
Maybe which way works best for different people depends on certain planet placements in their chart.
Not only that, but conjunctions and aspects to house cusps to describe certain life events, there I also found Placidus to be the most accurate so far
OMG!!! It's Anthony Louis!! The first astrology book i bought was written by him!
I'm quite the novice and I have recently found out that a lot of people use whole house now, so when I checked it out and it took my Mars, Venus and Uranus out of my 12 house and put them in my first house which is sort of nice and also moved my nodes from the 1st and 7th houses into the 2nd & 8th which is scary. I really got confused. Then when someone did a reading for me I discovered that she uses porphory. YIKES! Who am I for gods sake!? I just wish you guys would make up your minds by my next lifetime and all get on to the same page.🧡😅
😁funny stated. I also experience confusing things about it. Like nn and sn in different houses as well as a stellum. If you should pick one for your own what would you see most correct?
Perfectly put! I grew up with the certitude of intercepted signs in the Koch house system and then the internet (Astrodienst and Alabe) threw Placidus at me and all interceptions were gone. The only placements that went into another house, though, was Chiron. So where am I wounded now?! :-D
@@doro5419 how do you perceive your Chiron placement, what do you think is correct?
@@514rlfranks, both. That's the problem.
I’m 43. Just started studying astrology early last year. Most of my life experiences so far are very accurate and resonates more in placidus system and tropical. Tried using verdic and whole but I feel it’s less accurate. Especially my NN in scorpio in 10 house and 10house Pluto really resonates me. Venus in the 1st Capricorn is also accurate in tropical compared to second house Venus. especially my 5th house Jupiter and 8 th house Saturn. These events already happened to me!
I use Equal Housing for Natal Charts, and Whole Housing for World Events.
Reason I don't like Placidus, is that I am born in Norway, and I got 4 intercepted houses, and my 1st, 2nd, 7th and 8th House are only 10° each.
It's too limited compared to the other systems.
Started placidus, went to Koch, equal house and then whole sign. I like placidus and koch better because they just seem natural to me. Mainly use placidus
I primarily use Whole Sign Houses, but one of the things that I really appreciate about Placidus is how you can visually see what planetary hour it is just by looking at where the Sun is located relative to the house that it's in. Tony mentioned briefly that where ever the sun is located in a chart represents a spatial division that's proportional to two planetary hours in that house. So there's a compelling argument to using Placidus for charts of the moment to be able to see more clearly when planets are near the angles, but also if you practice enough then you can start to know what planetary hour it is by just looking at where the Sun is at. So Placidus has a spatio-temporal symmetry that's really mathematically and philosophically elegant, and the spatialized visualization of planetary hours is also quite compelling. Lots of folks will just look at tables and numbers to figure out planetary hours, but there's an extra magic to being able to look at a chart and immediately know what planetary hour it is just by looking at it and not having to look it up. That's something that you can't do with Whole Sign, or if you can, then it's a lot less intuitive to do it spatially.
So maybe it would be a great things to demonstrate visual on the podcast! Yes please. My Sun stays in the same house in both Whole Signs and Placidus. What changes is the cusp sign. Cusp is Pisces and Asc ruler, Sun and Pars Fortuna all in Aries in same house. This dual emphasis of rulership of same house is confounding to me. So much Aries in that house I hardly believe that Jupiter (in Leo) is managing, but then again - there is reception of sorts being that the natal Sun's ruler is in the sign of the Sun. In WS the ruler is Mars in Cap who is ruled by Saturn who is ruled by guess who? Yep, Jupiter. And that Saturn in Sagg is in a waning trine by 8 degrees to the Sun and 1 degree to ASC ruler.
OR one could say the natal Sun in Aries is still ruled by Mars but the house itself is ruled by Jupiter. Who is Sun answering to? Where are the results of his work in House 8 showing up? In H12 Leo where Jupiter resides, or H5 Cap where Mars is? Rulership is much more straight forward using WSigns.
There’s something you don’t hear everyday. I’m more whole sign house system but now I’m curious to revisit placidus.
I'm new to astro and so happy to have come across this discussion early on in my studies. Thank you Chris and Anthony for sharing your knowledge! ❣️
Great topic! Thank you for your service, Chris!
x HC
Thank you BOTH for sharing all your knowledge with us all.
I look forward to watching this tomorrow morning. Thanks for doing this. I have read Anthony's article and it was very good and well researched. Absolutely scholarly.
Greatly Appreciated this discussion!. Thank you Anthony and Chris! 🌟
This was really interesting! Thanks to you both 👍🥰💖
Great interview. Anthony Louis brings a wealth of knowledge and wisdom to us. Thanks.
Very interesting! Thanks for making this episode
Experience is the greatest teacher. I have studied and learnt by experimenting with what little I knew. I find it very true that it takes more than one formula to understand a chart.
Started with Placidus, looked ay Regipmontanus, went with Whole Sign Houses after watching one of your videos and finding some writing from Hand talking about the same. But I'm back looking at Placidus charts. But, still prefer whole sign houses.
I am relearning astrology with wholesign houses, and I feel IT IS worth the effort.
Placiidus seems more accurate than the other methods
Thanks for covering this topic. When I first studied Placidus was the thing - some 30 odd years ago. Studying Hellenistic now and finding footing somewhere in-between.
As an astrologer myself, I found this to be quite interesting. Thanks for sharing
I can relate to Placidus and whole sign. Both feel accurate, but placidus puts my pluto in ninth. In whole sign and many other systems it's in eighth. I can relate to eighth and ninth for deep transformation and change. I see it as being on the cusp of both houses and read two houses. My midheaven in whole sign is the ninth house. I totally relate to that. Education and learning have been a big part of my life, which kind of explains the the placidus ninth house pluto. I tend to combine interpretations. I am studying astrology in my own time and would like to take it further.
You came to the same conclusion I did. That’s awesome.
I am on about page 129 of your Hellenistic Astrology book and it's nice to be able to synthesize these live discussions. I am trying to reconcile the change of systems for myself. I relate much more to my Placidus chart, but admittedly have not fully studied my Whole Sign chart in extensive depth yet - but so far it doesn't fit as well (except for Pluto 12th House.) But then I am an amateur. Maybe it will make sense later - or it is my time to be shown what it wants to show me now. I think understanding the historical contexts, practices, and depths of ancient astrology will be pivotal. Thank you.
I agree wholeheartedly
That’s really interesting. I’ve been reading my placidus for about 8 yrs and about a third of it didn’t resonate. Then I chanced upon a RUclipsr who led me to Chris B. And I’ve been learning from him about whole sign house +three more planets and it was more fitting and comprehensive to my nature. Weird huh?
I use Placidus and Whole sign system :-)
Excellent video!!!! 💯👏🏿
In India our Professor K S Krishnamurthy invented his KP Astrology which uses the Placidus method.
So interesting! Did you ever make the episode regarding indian astrology? It's something I would love to look at as I don't know much about it at all! An episode detailing a brief overview of those methods that you touched on would be very interesting too! thank you as always great conversation, highly informative.
First- I just learned about this podcast and it is so excellent. This is a fascinating episode.
When I started reading, yes, Placidus was the default on websites but Whole Sign was already popular again and most popular readers said it was the best system to use.
So I tried switching to Whole Sign completely- but it just wouldn’t stick by itself. So I use both now. My own birth chart placements fall in groups that fit Placidus so well that I just couldn’t ignore it. And I have a lot of interceptions so I want to see all of the info. (Other ppl’s charts don’t change much so I get why they may not need it?)
For Vedic astrology, I would love to see you interviewing Ernst Wilhelm. He is THE authority of our time. He is the developer of Kala Software.
Authority.. of Vedic astrology..!!! R u kidding!!!?
He is no where close to the best Vedic astrologers...
And if you think he is the authority because he is of the same race and colour as you are then good luck to your racist mindset...
Placidus! The most accurate compared to whole sign and verdic. I compared my chart with those other 2 systems and I resonate more in Placidus. I also studied my whole family’s chart and 2 friends and placidus are on he most accurate.
@20:49 Most excellent analogy- Ptolemy / Einstein.
Coming quite late to this episode, but it has brought up the question of 'what are primary directions?'. For a time I have been thinking they are no more than transits, but then again this discussion suggests otherwise by linking it to solar arcs (did I even get that correct?). I read Ptolemy many years ago, but can't think of where I've encountered a very detailed explanation of what this technique is and what it proposes to accomplish. I suppose I can do what I always do and google...
See Martin Gansten's book on primary directions, which I hope to interview him about at some point.
I like traditional and whole sign for the win.
Same here. 12 houses for the 12 signs
Ty
In algebra there is a set of numbers that can be the correct answer.
Rising Signs by Sasha Fenton measures out the sign and shows how many minutes are in each of the signs. They are not equal.
I started out with Placidus then I switched to Whole Signs...I look at both with Whole Sign as my fundamental system...I use placidus for another perspective
My ascendant is ♍(tropical zodiac)
Enjoyed this episode and I’ll play agree and disagree while agreeing without disagreeing..
As of know I’m using whole sign with quadrant overlay which I somewhat don’t care for things being in two places at once while it kind of works.
Funny story, a previous astrology podcast made me finally listen to sister machine gun after all the talk of machine gun Kelly. Needless to say, one of the albums I actually wanted to listen to not hearing it since maybe high school has Egyptian hermeti-cat on the cover. It’s a famous excavated statue of Bastet which made me finally start looking into Hermetic philosophy. Prior, I started to view whole sign houses as being better for one thing while quadrants works better in another. I plan to re-read The Kybalion closer having skimmed it twice. I think it’s possible it’s an entirely different format of a system with whole sign. (Joke warning) considering there’s so much on gender, I worry it’s a cia plant like dinosaur bones and the moon. That it’s psyops.. joking aside, the argument about gender tipped my opinion on not changing it where gender is kind of a litmus test. Popular astrology, fine. But since Hermetic deals with a concept very different than what is modernly used if a person is too attached to the concept the philosophy just isn’t right for the person because it actually is the fundamental basis of the core philosophy. “to beget; to procreate; to generate; to produce.” The argument would be that if a person is limiting gender to only sex, acts of sex, or physical expression preferences that’s rigid in terms of physical that mental limitation is unwelcome and leads to problems. Modern, it’s already existing in these philosophy’s it’s not about male or female that, regardless of sex and/or gender all are masculine and feminine. Being too tied to the physical is equated to phallic worship.
“Phallicism tend to ruin mind, body and soul, and the Hermetic Philosophy has ever sounded the warning note against these degraded teachings which tend toward lust, licentiousness, and perversion of Nature's principles.”
Enjoyed having “all in all is all we all are” stuck in my head though.
I’ve made the argument that if you focus on who you are. Who you actually are, you’re not your physical body or preferences and what we experience as our “self” is universal. On one hand I agree, gender expression is mute point, I don’t care about it. It’s just that physical sexual identification and preferences get involved when it should be beyond it. If a person puts a physical limitation to ideas then the spiritual and philosophical concepts necessary are not exactly for them at that point. Popular psychological astrology would be fine though. I’m only referring to the non physical areas. I’m beginning to lean towards whole sign houses being of a completely different philosophy as quadrants where quadrants deals more with physical experience. In that case, you probably don’t need gender at all.
Anyways. It’s interesting to have another lot of spirit aries 8th with mars conjunct Venus and Pluto 2nd house thing again, “fine, I’ll actually start reading hermetic philosophy”. I get their aversion, reducing spirituality to sex organs tends to go horribly wrong very quickly be it a lodge, religion, or cult. I enjoyed the NOT drawing attention to the practices and acting as if they don’t exist because it’ll make Christian’s try to wipe it from existence. True.
After hearing another side of the gender argument making it clear it’s not male/female referencing sex as a creative act, but not sex itself stating reducing it to that causes the quote above; it does seem to be a fair litmus test on both sides of the spectrum. Makes sense to me knowing it’d cause an equal backlash from Christian’s. Anyways, I’ve heard that same philosophy from 2 different South American tribes that are the same, yet, slightly different. Some guiding “angels” or “deities” are malefic while others are not that exist parallel that can physically manifest. Etc etc etc. whole sign houses seem to reference it.
Koch is more accurate in my own while Placidus works in others, but I don’t think there’s an accurate quadrant system.
Campanius and Porphyry both of these seem to fit closer to me they put sag on the 5th cusp cap intercepted with jupiter n 1st in ♍ 7 cusp ♓ both my children r ♍s . people say the 1st looks exactly like me. Placidius and Koch regiomontanus has sag intercepted in 4th cap on 5th cusp Sat in 4th house.
Is that “King Warrior Magician Lover” King in the background?? ❤️♈️🌕
I use whole sign. Why? It seems to work better to my interpretation the events (lol! a egocentric system of houses).
How do I calculate which house an eclipse is falling in with Placidus in astrology? For example my 12th House and 11th house is Sagittarius with Placidus (Also a Sag Rising but 29 degrees) so with a Sagittarius eclipse which house is affected? HELP
Sir,
Will you please help me to find out the formula for Placidus house division System.
whole sign houses
Hi- I am wondering if there are any good free online resources to have my natal chart drawn up, but where I can select whole sign house assignation? Since I am a late-July Leo, it always gives me my 2nd and 3rd in Cancer... Any references would be appreciated!
if you want we can talk and I can guide through some stuff. just tell me
Vault of Heavens.
I prefer whole sign, placidus or any other quadrant house system makes my eyes hurt. I just cant do it
You invite this gentleman on and do all the talking yourself
Equal houses is the most funcional to me !
hehe he said " you got a lot of heat for it" that is wrestling slang 😁
Can we use placidus for sidereal chart? I resonate better with that then whole sign tbh
Sidereal only uses the whole house system so no you can't
Who is considered the father of American astrology? Is it Lewi Grant or is it Luke Dennis Broughton?
Placidus
Equal house system
To me is pretty much the same (meaning my chart, Placidous or Whole Sign). But for many people, it´s like a whole different world. I´m not an expert in predicting though. Has anybody tried both systems to predict, so you can make a real statement that one of them works better?
Veronica Maldonado I’ve been trying predictive things with my family recently, and so far whole sign seems to be most accurate for me!
@@kamminae Great! Thank you. My feeling is the same so far.
I have four planets in Aquarius (in whole sign, fourth house), but in Placidus, they go into the third house with degrees less than seven. Yet they retain the SIGN of Aquarius? That’s my question, lol. The house cusp between Capricorn-Aquarius is placed as so..? Mercury (2°), Venus (7°), Sun (6°), and Jupiter (23°). Jupiter is the only one that stays fourth at 23deg. I understand everyone’s chart is a tad bit different, and the house cusps are always slightly varied. I just don’t know who I am!!
If anyone feels like helping me I was born January 26, 1986 at 12:10 AM in San Diego, CA.
If you question is if the planets signs remain the same when you shift house system then he answer is yes. All those four planets will be in the same degree of aquarius no matter the house system you use.
if you want, I can guide through some stuff
53:00
I've tried many systems and koch gives crazy accurate results quadrant systems are the most accurate in my opinion
He is convinced none is true, well who is gonna make the new one
Placidus says I have Jupiter in Scorpio 11th house wholesign house says Jupiter 12 house Scorpio
Placidus is even popular in Indian KP astrology. Even Bhava Chalit seems to be Placidus. This may be an imperial artifact? Also not mentioned is Draconic and Sidereal zodiacs.
Please let the guest speak more.
48:00 lol, mentioning of the virgin birth... it was the star sign... when jesus was born in virgo.... ;)
Exactly Ludmila, Jesus is Virgo :-)
You are using whole signs?!
Thank you very much.
God bless you very much.
You have his birth certificate?
@@antares8281 lol... no sorry, I dont. Taking over other peoples theories and not even able to give the sources right now.
But there is a lot talking about this.
@@antares8281 there is even some mentioning of spica and other fixed stars. betlehem... a place of birth... where there is "bread in the sky"... sadly I did not make a catalogue of the youtubevideos where this is mentioned.. and at the moment I dont have the time to dive into it again
@@EvelineReinke I can find theories for Jesus' birth occuring in every season of the year and probably most months. Cardan and a much later astrologer nicknamed "Moby Dick" argued for Dec 25th. Others argued for spring dates such as archeoastronomy professor Michael Molnar. Some have used Jupiter- Saturn conjunctions, others argued for Novas or super novas as "The Star of Bethlehem. The list is endless. The fact is that not only don't we know the date of Jesus' birth, we don't know the year either. And to add insult to injury, we don't know for certain why the date Dec 25th was selected or when! So to state unequivocally that "Jesus is a Virgo" is very misleading.
wrestling is real; life is fake
No one uses Koch?
Well, I was socialized with it and since it works, I keep using it without actually knowing the history and maths behind it. I'd love to get it covered by The Astrology Podcast! :-)
I think Rick Levine does.