The whole point of the 3 being made last is because they were made *IN SECRET WITHOUT SAURONS KNOWLEDGE.* Sauron doesn’t even know they exist until he puts on the One ring and thinks ‘shit! This is a major problem!’ It’s literally the reason Sauron goes to war against Eregion.
The biggest gripe I have with this show is that the Elves don't feel like Elves and the Númenóreans don't really look or feel like Númenóreans. Elves just look like regular people with pointy ears. Númenóreans just feel like regular people and not special in any way.
I think that baby orcs aren’t necessarily lore breaking as there is wiggle room in the lore regarding their reproduction. That said a loving orc father caring for his family is absolutely antithetical to what Toilken presented.
Exactly. The babies aren't the problem. It's the affection. They could have easily shown babies, but treat them like new slaves. Like new ants, or bees. They simply exist as a tool. And not have nuclear family structures. But every female orc would mate with as many males as she could for example. So many simple ways to show the existence of babies without humanizing them.
are you stupid? Tolkien himself wrote that orcs reproduced that they were capable of good and that there was no such thing as absolute evil in his work.
As someone said they mixed up Tolkien Orcs with Orcs from World of Warcraft and The Elder Scrolls where it's okay for those Orcs to have regular family units, not Tolkien's.
@@Tallacus Tolkien had almost nothing to say about Orkish family units. I would not say that Orcs are incapable of familial love, but it would still be filtered through and perverted by a brutal society as set up by both Morgoth and Sauron.
I will be hated for this, but unless orcs are some kind of literally mindless entities--like the dwarves were immediately after being created by Manwe before Iluvatar gave them free will--it's actually a flaw in Tolkien's world-building. Since we know from LotR that some orcs desire to go live away from the big bosses, we know they have something like a soul. And to be honest, I think that Tolkien realized this problem, as he tries to work through it (unsuccessfully, in my opinion) in some of his letters. Tolkien is by far one of the best world-builders we have ever seen, but that does not mean that he was perfect.
To Yoystan’s point about the show suffering if read as wholly separate from the source: The only reason I bought Celebrimbor being won over by show Annatar is that I know who Fëanor is. The show itself set up nothing about what that name means to Celebrimbor.
@@tsmcdiz1758 I stand corrected, somewhat. They do discuss Fëanor a lot more than I remember in one scene. I still think there is context lacking, such as Celebrimbor’s relation to him, and what the Silmarils even are.
As somebody once said about the film Anonymous. "You need to know the period in order to get the references. But if you do know the period, you'll hate the film". This show feels the same. You need to know Tolkien in order to get much of it, but the more you know Tolkien, the more you'll hate the show.
@@YT.WillArcher those messengers got there fast, they must have teleported because Galadriel was the only one who knew and was chasing elrond after Halbrand crossed the mountains into Mordor.
@@KeytarArgonian > High king discovers Halbrand is Sauron > Asks spy network who’s been reported going to Mordor > Gets told Halbrand was seen > Conclusion is Sauron seen going into mordor.
What’s up with the Rings of Power Internet Defence Force? Wherever and whenever fans of the writings of JRR and Christopher Tolkien and it’s attendant universe are upset with the lore being butchered, there’s always some accounts popping up and attacking them (us), but never citing the lore itself just the shows own (il)logic. If you like the show fine, but it’s not JRR or Christopher Tolkien’s world, and stop attacking lore purists who are upset with this mockery.
So true, in one day, I had like a dozen X-Twitter folks pop up out of nowhere to defend loving orc families. Blocked. The New York Times review was loaded with letters of support for the show. I tried to add a polite critical letter and it wasn't published.
Its lore purists who constantly attack a show they apparently hate so much they can t stop commenting on. Why people shouldn t express oppossing views? (Btw, I ve lots against this show myself, but I don t bother costantly whining about it)
You may not like the show (am not a huge fan of it myself as "Tolkien product" ) but it is and will always be included in the Tolkien's world because they bought the rights, and can make whatever they want of whatever they bought. Welcome to capitalism my man
you're wrong about one major thing: in the 1st season intro thwy clearly stated that Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant, that multiplied and spread the Orcs around Middle-Earth. so they do know exactly who he is and what he's done. However that doesn't fit with this season's opening where Sauron is mutinied and killed off immediately starting Second Age by his own Orcs, giving him zero time to multiply and spread the Orcs as stated on 1st season and to set up other things happening throughout the show
In my head cannon female Orcs would be chained up being used a broodmares if they exist like the Berserker from Gears of War. To show an Orc husband with his wife and newborn that was just silly, showing Orcs having free will to kill Sauron, now that was just stupid.
the forbidden forest part was so funny cause we literally just created mordor last season. You're telling me that a forest has developed a legendary, "bro don't go into that forest" reputation within like months? yeaaaa, that's not how it works
@@HunterVukelich your naivete is admirable, but somehow i don't think 700000+ orcs have tried to pass through the forest. In fact, they've shown us exactly 0. They just wanted a cheap Fangorn knockoff. Either way it's bad storytelling
I don't understand all the Reddit warriors going to bat for Orcs. It's okay to have a bad guy in your story. It doesn't have to be morally grey everywhere, all the time. It's also okay for there to be heroes. Yes Orcs reproduce, so do all animals. It doesn't innately speak to your moral character. Yes, they are essentially slaves and subjugated but they aren't much nicer on their own.
So tired of this “morally grey” attitude about everything. It’s especially suspicious that all these multi-billion dollar corporations are constantly pushing it. It feels like they’re desperately trying to justify their objectively evil actions themselves
Modern Hollywood can't do The Silmarillion or LOTOR because it's about good vs evil, displaced peoples and hearkening to old grace and glory. It's not even about following Tolkien; you could do an adaptation or use the setting, but it's IMPOSSIBLE if you apply moral relativism to THE DARK LORD SAURON. Deceiver, Satan, whether the writer believes in it or not, evil is evil when dealing with the villains in this setting, it's like making apologetics for Hannibal Lecter. If you don't get that making it, what chance do you have for making anything artistic or entertaining?
I didn't get the impression that Sauron mind-controled the sea monster, only that he mind-"nudged" it. It could have been something as simple as creating in it a very uneasy feeling.
@@therongjr he canonically had power over other wills so you’re just wrong. Of course this show only addresses that when it’s convenient for the plot they wanna have
@@IarwainBen-adar and you only nitpick when it's convienant for you to hate on the show. So what's the difference between you and who you're hating on? 😂
@@IarwainBen-adaryou've already decided it's not Canon so why are you bringing it back to Canon when you know it's not already? You just enjoy being upset at this point it seems to me.
@@zStC1 so many conclusions being jumped to by 2 comments. You need help. The canon of the show made it clear he has mind control powers but they ignore it when they need to are you dense. Just admit you don’t understand or even know what internal consistency is 🤡. If you think calling out the writing is nitpicking when that’s literally the most important part of STORY telling you need a psych evaluation. Please never procreate and or write your own story for all our sakes
It's like the showrunners heard the story of the Silmarillion some time ago and wanted to excitedly tell us the 2nd age part, but did it in elementary school kind of way while also forgetting the main idea of the first couple of thousand years. "You remember the guy I told you about right, well now he's there... And then this happened. Oh yeah and there was an eagle and some halflings and some Morgoth guy, but that's not important at the moment..."
People hating on this show gives me hope for humanity, standing up for what's right. Keep up the gatekeeping people, let's give this show The Acolyte treatment.
I've got an easy solution for you too: Copy all pages of Tolkien's writings and merge them into a video program for creating clips. Tatah, and you've got the perfect cinematic adaptation of all of his works!
That has always been the case. Just because I write Aragorn became and ice cream truck driver doesnt make it lord of the rings. Its a basic concept. Always has been. You arent laying any new tracks. This applies to anything.
It's not lord of the rings, it's an adaption of lord of the rings (or more accurately, an adaption of some of the stories from middle earth). No movie, show or game will be more than an adaption.
“If an Eagle comes to your coronation, Miriel, it will be a great omen” Then an Eagle comes to Miriel’s coronation: “The Eagle favours Pharazôn! All hail!” 🤷WTF
Sauron is evil, he isnt overtly malicious without cause. He is logical evil, not killing spree evil. He can do horrific things, when he wants an outcome. The books show that quite well. He will do anything, anything, to suit his ends. He wont just do something for no reason though. The scene that reflect this best is the boat sinking. He warns the old man, hey grab hold of something. Why? The old man was nice to him and why not warn him? Yet he wasnt going to lift a finger to save him. That is evil, but its not malicious. He didnt insult the guy or relish it. For me, thats how Sauron always has been in the books. Calculating, focused evil. He wants to rule the world, not torture every living thing in it. He has the ability to laugh, yes, and find amusement, and even joy. It just gets channeled into evil actions most often.o
It's the difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Morgoth wanted to destroy Arda, to ruin it completely and utterly. Sauron wants to rule it and make it "perfect". It's just his idea of perfect is making every living being a mind slave to his will.
@@Arnorian3320This. Morgoth would be Chaotic Evil, and Sauron was more Lawful Evil (especially when he took over as the new Dark Lord, and into the 3rd Age, etc)
Its because these are World of Warcraft or The Elder Scrolls orcs. Nothing wrong with them when used in their proper universes but Middle Earth isnt Tamriel or Azaroth and thus we need Tolkein Orcs.
@@GM-db4bv Yeah, the problem is not actually the baby at all, it’s the dad saying “must we go to war again?” There is functionally no difference between that orc and an average man in this world, and it feels wrong.
I dunno, it reminds me of Shagrat and Gorbag in The Two Towers. They grumble about the war and the "bosses," and fantasize about getting away from it all. Like, they're not pining for their families and talking about their kids, but it doesn't seem that far a stretch from what Tolkien suggests about orcs in that scene: that they have inner lives, relationships with each other, and a resentment for their position as cannon fodder. Anyway, between now (in Rings of Power) and the War of the Ring, the orcs have plenty of time to become more simply evil, especially under Sauron's influence.
@@MrHobbes6 Orcs have no loyalty. They'll question their leaders (in private), want more for themselves. They're not asking for a quiet life on a beach in Umbar with their wife.
just because orcs reproduce in the same way as the children of illuvatar does not mean they have traditional family structures. in fact i think we can be pretty confident that they don't.
Sauron and Morgoth have no power in the water. Ulmo has absolute power over water. Every llittle rivulet until the ocean. Sauron could not have downed ghe ship or knfluenced the seamonster. He might have fellt it coming, but from the Lore water and the sea are tabu for the forces of evil.
I'm pretty sure that the Valar removed most of their direct powers from Middle-Earth after the end of the First Age. After all, Ulmo removed his powers from the rivers Narog and Sirion, which made it possible for Nargothrond and Gondolin to be destroyed, respectively.
@@tsmcdiz1758 theres older and fouller things in the world. The watcher could be in the same vein as Ungoliant, something that came about when Middle earth was created.
My biggest issue is with the orc humanization ,creating out of Tolkien’s heroes actual war criminals ,and this was never his intent ,and he struggled the most with the orc origins because of the moral implications . And Amazon just decide to humanize them ,and the show runners insist ,they do it because they “ understand Tolkien,so well“ ! lol.
@@MOME914 Tolkien never humanized them . Reproducing heterosexually is not humanization . Because that would create villains out of his heroes . The “ there are very fine people on both sides” ,is definitely not Tolkien’s intent .
the very weird thing is how the Sauron timeline contradicts itself in season 2. In season 1 we clearly see Sauron beeing this force of nature, even beeing in his evil "Peter Jackson Armor" and already crowned with this spiked crown, commanding orcs into massive battles. But then in season 2 they show him struggling to get a room full of orks on his side, getting pathetically killed by his own crown and turned into spaghetti al nero di seppia because, apparently, he wasn't even crowned yet! Either they retconed that stuff and hoped noone would notice, or they actually forgot their introduction in season 1.
Why does the Eagle trust Pharazon? He’s against Elves 100% but the Eagles are most closely aligned with Elves of all the free peoples. They are literally the Great Birds of Manwë! Why would they choose a guy who hates the Valar and Elves unless they plan on fully ignoring the Jealousy of The Kingsmen! Also for the whole orc baby debacle. Just before we see the baby the orc dad is talking to Adar about how he wants to not fight and for them to be free and not have to follow a master into war. That’s the big issue is that orcs generally speaking want to destroy everything. Yes Tolkien had his own moral issues with making a whole species evil (as per one of his letters) but he never actually delivered on this idea. Edit: I see you guys addressed the eagle thing. My impatience got the better of me. Sorry 😅
@@Don9872 too stupid to know they work with/for the elves I guess 🤦♂️ this show is so dumb on so many levels. It’s great tho if you don’t think about it for more than 5 seconds!
It’s true he never resolved the orc issue, but I think it would be odd to go in the opposite direction of the thing he was trying to resolve and just say orcs are irredeemable, and purely evil.
One thing in this show that keeps sticking out to me is dialog lines that are copied directly from the Peter Jackson movies. They seem so out of place when you hear them. Have heard a few people claim that RoP is really just fanfiction. But I feel like in order to be fanfiction, the writer of it has to actually be a fan.
To your discussion regarding fridging, it was a 90's thing. You were right that it was a Green Lantern comic that got the term going but it was the Kyle Rayner Lantern who came home to find his girlfriend killed and stuffed in the fridge to get a story rolling (it's not even like it was a motivating factor for him being a superhero, it was a decent time into his tenure by that point). It's definitely a cheap way of getting drama out and tends to waste characters. But at the same time it shouldn't be avoided because "fridging bad" since sometimes yes, a character just doesn't have anywhere else to go and more, better stories can come from their death than their continued existence (keeping to comics, such as the death of Gwen Stacy over in Spider-Man). In this case for the show, they were backed into a corner since the actress left. I guess they could have pulled an Adar and recast but really... did we need more of the forced romance of flipped Arwen and Aragorn?
I am glad you guys addressed the fact that messengers are being killed. The show at least implies Sauron has them ambushed; however he has no people under his command to be able to do that, and besides him, there's no other person with the motivation to do so.
The simple fact is that if this show was good we wouldn’t be seeing so many videos on RUclips with thousands and thousands of views and likes. Look up Peter Jackson’s movie reviews and it’s all positive, with minor criticism. With ROP it’s the opposite lmao
You can’t say things like “Because the orcs are humanized means that means that Aragorn is war criminal”. Even in human war civilians are fair game if they support the war effort. During WW2 you can look at countless bombings meant to destroy the ability of enemy to make war. Particularly the destruction of the German war machine was crucial in securing victory. Those factories, mines, and warehouses were run by civilians and although unfortunate are necessary to be destroyed to have victory. This isn’t a pointless victory of conquest either, it was to defeat an evil aggressor which is a perfect description of Orcs in Tolkien universe. I think it’s dumb to humanize them because they are not humans. They are wholly evil and treacherous especially to each other. They as a species do not have true free will like man. They are and always will be slaves to their ancient fear of Morgoth. They cannot be reformed they are monsters. Just because they look like a person doesn’t mean they are. They will always hate men, nature, elves, and free creatures living happy because they were twisted to be that way by Morgoth.
Thank you, gentlemen, for yet again watching ROP so that I don't have to. Your sacrifice is very much appreciated. I have watched other reviews in order to hear different viewpoints. I do get the feeling that you're kinder than many other commentators. 😊❤❤❤😊
Agreed, since the show makers would probably do it poorly and yet in the book of Return of the King Gwaihir tanks - what would you of done if it was your choice?”
You have here what looks like a loving orc father comforting his crying orc baby. In the Peter Jackson movies we have orcs arguing, killing, and then eating each other! I hope that father didn't accidentally wind up eating his son!
The term 'fridging' was coined by comic book fan (and later writer) Gail Simone in 1999, named after an incident in Green Lantern vol. 3 #54 (1994), written by Ron Marz. The story includes a scene in which the title hero, Kyle Rayner, comes home to his apartment to find that the villain Major Force had killed Rayner's girlfriend, Alexandra DeWitt, and stuffed her into a refrigerator.[1]
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how TV works. The stories are written by a writers room guided by the showrunners. One writer is then assigned to write the full script for each episode based on those stories. Directors also dont have as much influence over TV as they do with movies.
Fully agreed with Yoystan on this one. The show seems to want to have it both ways: (1) assuming prior knowledge of significant characters and events without having to set them up and (2) wanting to significantly change things or set up new plot points so that it can stand alone (even if that may end up being contradictory with existing lore). They need to choose one and stick to it. You can't name drop "Sauron" and expect everyone to tremble as if it's obvious how heinous of a character he is when he was shown to be incompetent even at convincing orcs to do his bidding. But if he is so scary, then at least have the other characters look like they care more about him being at large in the world, as opposed to these impotent elves that don't seem to think of him as much of a threat.
@35:29 ROP is not that kind of show. It is a textook example of why "Show, don't tell" is such an important part of cinema writing. We're constantly just being told things in exposition dumps in the form of conversations between characters who likely arleady know what they're being told. It's maid and butler dialogue
"Its better to equate them to zombies" The closest my universe has to "monsters" is essentially like this as well. They're basically zombified with only a few still having their souls left intact, and even the ones that do still have their souls are still enthralled.
I've heard from someone on the set of season 1 that 'one of' the actors would make themselves vomit before each scene to get into the headspace - not sure to what level of serious to take this, but the fact that i was not surprised and thought it could apply to any of the characters says it all
as an actor, that is an absolutely insane choice to make before *every* scene. but definitely not surprising considering some of the acting on this show 😖
49:13 I dont think you are quite right here in your discussion as in the prologue to S1 Ep1 narrated by Galadriel she says “Morgoth would be defeated but his orcs spread to every corner of Middle Earth under the command of his most devoted servant, the cruel & terrible sorcerer Sauron” & they show that shot of all the orcs bowing down to him looking imposing, standing about 10 foot tall in armour like the Jackson movies (it’s actually a pretty good shot). So they do expressly say he’s Morgoths 2nd in command & in control of all the orcs after his defeat which is completely at odds with flashback scene in S2 Ep1. So they really don’t do themselves any favours.
The horse is the one character I actually like in this show 😭 the high point so far has been when the NotHobbits got whisked up into the tornado, i cackled 😭
@@zStC1He’s not saying humans can’t be evil, he’s saying that they’re making all evil seem like it ONLY comes from people rather than a force beyond their comprehension.
I really appreciated your three season two videos! It sounds like you are both grading on a slightly different scale, one based on Tolkien lore and the other partially on Tolkien lore but more on entertainment. Really great listening to the analysis! Thanks again
the orc/ork issue was something even Tolkien struggled with because that very thing of the heroes killing orcs that could be redeemed, plus their origins. He coulding come up with an idea for them that wholly resolved stuff ("myths transformed" section Morgoth's ring, IIRC) so the show isn't alone in that.
I have a short on my channel of that Arondir fight scene. If you look at it slow, he runs in and jumps into the wagon, then spirals out from under it’s cover. It’s a pretty neat scene, honestly I like stunts rather than straight up fighting. It’s nice how- even though there is a lot to drag the show for-you all give credit where it is due. I thought it was a very good point that if the show wants to be it’s own thing then it has to do all the heavy lifting of fleshing out the characters rather than relying on what’s already been established in Tolkien’s lore
i believe tolkien towards the end of his life believed orcs had a soul, and came into conflict with his own former ideas of aragorn wiping them out. I can’t find the reference however so i could be wrong
I would have to agree with Royan here that, lore problems aside. The show is at least much more entertaining than the boredom from last season. Each episode has things happening at least.
I hate the way they are portraying Pharazon. Absolutely neutered such an iconic villain from the works. Gone is Pharazon the Golden too prideful for his own good. Instead we get this scheming wormtounge character with no plans of his own. He is terrible. About the morality of orcs, to be honest I missed the child orc. We've seen orcs have desires beyond evil and war before. Seeing a child orc doesn't raise much red flags for me. I do see the point, but think I agree mostly with Royen.
I just finished S2 Ep 3 of the Rings of Power. I'm conflicted. I love LOTR, but this show doesn't feel like it's hitting the right notes. The acting feels stale and cardboard, there's no real heart behind it. The weaving storylines just like S1 are making it very boring. By the time the story swings back to one of the interesting plots I've already forgot about it.
Although I reserve judgement regarding whether they are going to present the Orcs empathetically, I genuinely hope they don't go down that route for the very reasons you say, as it makes it morally ambiguous when you consider how LOTR characters kill them in a seemingly remorseless manner.
3:02 the worst thing this show does is make everyone in middle Earth look Human Especially the Numenoreans they seem so human 😂. Except for the Orcs they look great but it just yakes you out of it when some of those races are supposed to look a certain way but they don't. How the heck did Jackson do it so much better almost 25yrs ago oh i know because he loved Tolkien's work and didn't want to put his messages into it but Tolkien's message and he was a competent director unlike these jokers 😂.
Sauron is apparently an omnipresent god because he can be in Eregion helping Celebrimbor to make rings while simultaneously collapsing bridges, causing earthquakes, poisoning trees, and reanimating the spirits of dead men
15:30 this was a callback to when aragorn legolas and gimli found out that merry & pippin escaped to the forest and Gimli says "WHAT MADNESS DROVE THEM THERE"
The Green Lantern comic in question was in mid 90s, not the Golden Age. The trope existed prior to that in storytelling, not just comics, but that instance was particularly egregious, which is why it became the trope namer.
Regarding Isildur, to me the biggest issue isn't his story, but the actor. I just cannot take him seriously. No matter what he does, he looks like a soft, whiny weakling to me that in no way matches the character he is supposed to portray.
The only way the Rings work in the show is that they are already corrupting the elves even before they put them on. I agree with cleaning up the timeline and explaining what has been happening. For example, the elves have been guarding the Southlands, but after years of doing so and seeing nothing, they are claiming "Mission Accomplished," but the Orcs have still somehow managed to gather in such numbers and attack and kill elf garrisons but no one seems concerned.
I gave season 2 a fair chance. The first 2 episodes still had the embarrassing dialogue, wooden acting from actors allergic to testosterone, and atrocious pacing. By the middle of episode 3 I had to turn it off. This is actually one of the worst shows in the top tier spending level of television. I feel terrible for the talented people in the background working on a show with such astoundingly pathetic writing. I'll likely youtube the guaranteed memeable moments going forward, but I cancelled Prime today and I'm not going back. To do this to the patron saint of fantasy's master work is unforgivable and I will no longer be part of it.
I disagree completely on the orc baby making Aragorn look bad. Aragorn did not kill civilian orcs (to the extent they exist), he was killing an invading army. To my knowledge he did not then go genocide the orcs, they just faded back into the dark places of middle earth without Sauron holding them together. Even though there are traces of humanity left, they are so corrupted that they cannot form a society.
Gentlemen, have you done an episode discussing the "questionable" casting of ROP? Here's a thought: recast it with great actors. Start with Deep Space Nine and Avery Brooks as Gil Galad... Galadriel? Sigorney Weaver. Elrond? James McAvoy. Obviously, this is fantasy, but what a huge difference it would make. Imagine Shatner as Celebrimbor and Nimoy as Sauron...
Why indeed was the Palantir forbidden? Did we miss the scene where all Elven artefacts are banned in Numenor? Not to mention that there were AT LEAST seven of them throughout Numenor
Have Brand turn into Annatar in front of Celembrimbor and Galadriel in Season 1. Show him taking charge over the orcs and commanding Adar to cause chaos in the Southlands in E1S2 would fix most of RoP for me.
Jeff Bezos walking into his writer's room after listening to Rhoyn (sp?), Yoystan's part-time cohost, craft a better backstory narrative for sauron's evil influence than them after giving them a billion dollars to make a show: "Rhoyn, Yoystan's part-time cohost on Men of the West! was able to build this! (narrative) in a cave! (podcast) with a box of scraps! (only his brain)" ROP writers: "I'm sorry sir. I'm not Rhoyn, Yoystan's part-time cohost on Men of the West."
Honestly these episodes show from Sauron's perspective. In his view Middle Earth and it's people are chaotic and the only solution is to bring everything under his complete control. And he will do anything he can to achieve that.
“[Tolkien] believes that ‘there’s a little good in the worst of us and a little bad in the best of us’ ; but not that there’s a little good in evil and little evil in good. He believes in human moral complexity but not in logical moral complexity.” ✍: Peter Kreeft, 📖: 'The Philosophy of Tolkien'
Sauron in the second season is like Kang, killed by ants. He wouldn't be even weak at that point, to be killed by some random Orcs. The obvious issue is writing, that a writer that doesn't understand Tolkien can't write Tolkien. An actor can do his job without having read Tolkien but not the people who are supposed to direct/write, you just need a visionary for this, and a really good writer. I think it's a tremendous task either way, even if you had the rights to the Silmarillion there would be a lot of gap to account for and even then Silmarillion's in the Second Age is more of a history book rather than having coherent stories so for it not to be strange, for characters to not have weird dialogue that doesn't fit, some kind of genius is needed, I don't think it's such a simple task. I liked the Eagle scene given the context from the Silmarillion but maybe that's not what it ends up being, someone said that's not over so we may very well see that develop further, I have been waiting a long time to see an Eagle talk though.
Adar suprise stabbed him in the head, he was finished after that, and he used magic to survive it even still. Personally I hope the eagles don't talk it'll be stupid, like the talking dragon in the hobit ruined that for me
My initial reaction: The Sauron storyline is ok. They need to make this character more “chaotic evil” rather than just another villain. The Elf/Rings storyline is decent. However, something just isn’t right with me about the storyline. The Human/Arondir storyline is interesting. These characters are the most intriguing and will keep me watching the series. The Orc storyline is interesting. The Orc perspective will please some viewers. The Hobbit/Wizard storyline is mediocre. Traveling to places not before seen raises the bar slightly, but storyline seems to be a Frodo/Sam rehash. The Dwarf storyline is barely tolerable. Final two thoughts: It seems to me that the producers of this show are trying hard to show viewers touch-points from the LotR movies, but then quickly going into a different direction. Finally, many scenes look too close to Game of Thrones-like to me. Is Rings of Power where old Game of Thrones characters go to retire?
Morgoth was Clearly ‘absolute evil’ - at the end / final battles of The 1st Age. That’s why Eru and the good Valar bound him and hurled him outside the Gates of Night , beyond the boundaries of the universe / reality, till the time of the Dagor Dagorath at the End of Time.
@@diggerdog9205In the Sirmarilion we are told that the orcs multiplied like the children of Iluvatar, that is, the elves and humans, that is, that they reproduced normally, and Tolkien himself said that there were female orcs and that the orcs were capable of doing good.
@giancarlo5945 They asked you to source it, not paraphrase how you perceived what was written. Page number and page line where the exact words are written that orcs arent what they are shown to be in basically every single instance of their pagetime.
@@zedorian6547for the orcs had life and multiplie after the manner of the children of iluvatar That is just what the sirmarilion says and you can search for it on Google and it will appear. I even have the screenshot. Secondly, in one of Tolkien's letters he says that there were female orcs, and then there is a video of Tolkien himself speaking saying that He does not believe in absolute evil, even in one of his letters he says that he does not deal with absolute evil in his work and you can search for all that on the internet, even Nerd of the Rings mentions exactly the same thing in his video of this chapter.
I have my problems with the show--to put it mildly--but our great friend and host is right in his aside. Trystan Gravelle is rocking the role of Pharazôn.
I know that you said in the video that at no point in the show have they established that Sauron was Morgoth's right-hand man. However, in the very first episode season one Galadriel tells us that he was "Morgoth's most devoted servant." Now, you obviously don't have to take that to mean that he is a right-hand man or even a top commander. You do have to acknowledge, though, the implication that the Elves who knew of Sauron, which would have been most of them, would have viewed him as a scion of evil and ill-intent akin to Morgoth himself. So, while the show might be portraying individuals not viewing Sauron as a great threat, we can also say that it's a display of bad writing and character development on the part of the show runners/directors/writers.
Yoystan, because of my Elder Brother doesn't want me to look up Spoilers until the Season is done and now Reviews...I won't be any commenting on these or doing anything to participate in these Reviews until I have seen these Episodes!!! I would love to see ROP as it airs, but Because of these reasons and Assignments I won't be watching anything of this until the Season is and other things is Done in my Life. It's a very busy 3 Months...Marion Baggins Out!!!
Love you guys and your insights. Amazons Rings of Power in my opinion is an abomination if you are trying to fit it into the guilded chest of Professor Tolkiens legendarium. On its own, (and if we don’t try to make sense of the artistic license they have taken in developing this money grab by superimposing it against the Masterpiece that is Tolkiens legacy), it’s not bad. Surely Season 2 is a massive improvement over the first season. I agree with you that director and writer continuity is critical for something as grand as this. In my opinion, the hopscotch, let’s have someone else direct this episode approach leads me to believe that Amazon is just creating jobs for young, up and coming directors and writers. I agreed with almost everything you boys expressed in the reviews. I listened to all 4 hours of them. My advice going forward is just think of this like an alternate universe, just like DC and Marvel have theirs. Rings of Power takes place in an alternate Middle Earth, period. Then we can truly let it wash over us and simply be entertained. May the great Professor Tolkien cease perpetually rolling over in his grave as Amazon defiles the greatest Mythos ever created by a mere mortal man……..Or was he? Holla back!
There is another problem that you didnt mention. We have no idea why Durin senior accepted the rings,he says nothing about it and it really pisses me off.
I thought it was really dumb that the Numenoreans are being shown to be this pacifist culture that is grappling with its first ever experience with military death. At the time of the Downfall, Numenor had multiple colonies in Middle-earth and had subjugated regions like Harad and made them tributary kingdoms. They were initially at the founding of Numenor, more pacifist but by their noontide they had become a massive military might, so much so that they defeated Sauron's armies in the late Second Age
![Ice On My Teeth - ATEEZ エイティーズ 에이티즈 [Music Bank] | KBS WORLD TV 241115](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c-n92OgbbwA/mqdefault.jpg)
The whole point of the 3 being made last is because they were made *IN SECRET WITHOUT SAURONS KNOWLEDGE.* Sauron doesn’t even know they exist until he puts on the One ring and thinks ‘shit! This is a major problem!’ It’s literally the reason Sauron goes to war against Eregion.
The biggest gripe I have with this show is that the Elves don't feel like Elves and the Númenóreans don't really look or feel like Númenóreans. Elves just look like regular people with pointy ears. Númenóreans just feel like regular people and not special in any way.
I think that baby orcs aren’t necessarily lore breaking as there is wiggle room in the lore regarding their reproduction. That said a loving orc father caring for his family is absolutely antithetical to what Toilken presented.
Exactly. The babies aren't the problem. It's the affection. They could have easily shown babies, but treat them like new slaves. Like new ants, or bees. They simply exist as a tool. And not have nuclear family structures. But every female orc would mate with as many males as she could for example. So many simple ways to show the existence of babies without humanizing them.
are you stupid? Tolkien himself wrote that orcs reproduced that they were capable of good and that there was no such thing as absolute evil in his work.
As someone said they mixed up Tolkien Orcs with Orcs from World of Warcraft and The Elder Scrolls where it's okay for those Orcs to have regular family units, not Tolkien's.
@@Tallacus Tolkien had almost nothing to say about Orkish family units. I would not say that Orcs are incapable of familial love, but it would still be filtered through and perverted by a brutal society as set up by both Morgoth and Sauron.
I will be hated for this, but unless orcs are some kind of literally mindless entities--like the dwarves were immediately after being created by Manwe before Iluvatar gave them free will--it's actually a flaw in Tolkien's world-building. Since we know from LotR that some orcs desire to go live away from the big bosses, we know they have something like a soul. And to be honest, I think that Tolkien realized this problem, as he tries to work through it (unsuccessfully, in my opinion) in some of his letters. Tolkien is by far one of the best world-builders we have ever seen, but that does not mean that he was perfect.
To Yoystan’s point about the show suffering if read as wholly separate from the source: The only reason I bought Celebrimbor being won over by show Annatar is that I know who Fëanor is. The show itself set up nothing about what that name means to Celebrimbor.
Plainly untrue. Celebrimbor discusses this with Elrond in season 1, in relation to Elrond’s feelings about living up to his father’s legacy
@@tsmcdiz1758 I stand corrected, somewhat. They do discuss Fëanor a lot more than I remember in one scene. I still think there is context lacking, such as Celebrimbor’s relation to him, and what the Silmarils even are.
@@crumdogy I’d guess that’s largely because they don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion.
As somebody once said about the film Anonymous. "You need to know the period in order to get the references. But if you do know the period, you'll hate the film". This show feels the same. You need to know Tolkien in order to get much of it, but the more you know Tolkien, the more you'll hate the show.
‘Our spies say Sauron was last seen entering Mordor’
> nobody knows Halbrand is Sauron and nobody knows what he looks like.
That was after they knew Halbrand was Sauron.
@@YT.WillArcher he went to Mordor at the end of season 1. Only Galadriel knew who he was then.
@@KeytarArgonian So the elves have asked their spies did you see a man who looks like Halbrand and they must of said yeah he was entering mordor
@@YT.WillArcher those messengers got there fast, they must have teleported because Galadriel was the only one who knew and was chasing elrond after Halbrand crossed the mountains into Mordor.
@@KeytarArgonian > High king discovers Halbrand is Sauron > Asks spy network who’s been reported going to Mordor > Gets told Halbrand was seen > Conclusion is Sauron seen going into mordor.
What’s up with the Rings of Power Internet Defence Force? Wherever and whenever fans of the writings of JRR and Christopher Tolkien and it’s attendant universe are upset with the lore being butchered, there’s always some accounts popping up and attacking them (us), but never citing the lore itself just the shows own (il)logic. If you like the show fine, but it’s not JRR or Christopher Tolkien’s world, and stop attacking lore purists who are upset with this mockery.
So true, in one day, I had like a dozen X-Twitter folks pop up out of nowhere to defend loving orc families. Blocked. The New York Times review was loaded with letters of support for the show. I tried to add a polite critical letter and it wasn't published.
Terminally online wokies.
I'd almost rename it the Modern Media Internet Defence Force lol! They sound like the exact same crowd that pretended to like/watch The Acolyte.
Its lore purists who constantly attack a show they apparently hate so much they can t stop commenting on. Why people shouldn t express oppossing views? (Btw, I ve lots against this show myself, but I don t bother costantly whining about it)
You may not like the show (am not a huge fan of it myself as "Tolkien product" ) but it is and will always be included in the Tolkien's world because they bought the rights, and can make whatever they want of whatever they bought.
Welcome to capitalism my man
you're wrong about one major thing: in the 1st season intro thwy clearly stated that Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant, that multiplied and spread the Orcs around Middle-Earth. so they do know exactly who he is and what he's done. However that doesn't fit with this season's opening where Sauron is mutinied and killed off immediately starting Second Age by his own Orcs, giving him zero time to multiply and spread the Orcs as stated on 1st season and to set up other things happening throughout the show
In my head cannon female Orcs would be chained up being used a broodmares if they exist like the Berserker from Gears of War. To show an Orc husband with his wife and newborn that was just silly, showing Orcs having free will to kill Sauron, now that was just stupid.
Poor Yoystan is in the bargaining stage of grief
the forbidden forest part was so funny cause we literally just created mordor last season. You're telling me that a forest has developed a legendary, "bro don't go into that forest" reputation within like months? yeaaaa, that's not how it works
You’re cringe 😂
@@bullrun2772 no u
Yeah. If legit for three months 758483 orcsies and trollsies haven’t come back from a forest I think they might have told each other don’t go in there
Considering your a troll go in the forest it’s completely safe !! 😂 jk
@@HunterVukelich your naivete is admirable, but somehow i don't think 700000+ orcs have tried to pass through the forest. In fact, they've shown us exactly 0. They just wanted a cheap Fangorn knockoff. Either way it's bad storytelling
I think this is the total banalization of evil. Its moral realitivism at its height.
I don't understand all the Reddit warriors going to bat for Orcs. It's okay to have a bad guy in your story. It doesn't have to be morally grey everywhere, all the time. It's also okay for there to be heroes. Yes Orcs reproduce, so do all animals. It doesn't innately speak to your moral character. Yes, they are essentially slaves and subjugated but they aren't much nicer on their own.
So tired of this “morally grey” attitude about everything. It’s especially suspicious that all these multi-billion dollar corporations are constantly pushing it. It feels like they’re desperately trying to justify their objectively evil actions themselves
The greatest lie that a great evil can convince you of is that evil does not exist.
All mortals are morally grey, only the gods are constant and black or white
Modern Hollywood can't do The Silmarillion or LOTOR because it's about good vs evil, displaced peoples and hearkening to old grace and glory. It's not even about following Tolkien; you could do an adaptation or use the setting, but it's IMPOSSIBLE if you apply moral relativism to THE DARK LORD SAURON.
Deceiver, Satan, whether the writer believes in it or not, evil is evil when dealing with the villains in this setting, it's like making apologetics for Hannibal Lecter. If you don't get that making it, what chance do you have for making anything artistic or entertaining?
I like how Sauron managed to mind control the sea creature but couldn’t do the same with the orcs 🤦♂️
I didn't get the impression that Sauron mind-controled the sea monster, only that he mind-"nudged" it. It could have been something as simple as creating in it a very uneasy feeling.
@@therongjr he canonically had power over other wills so you’re just wrong. Of course this show only addresses that when it’s convenient for the plot they wanna have
@@IarwainBen-adar and you only nitpick when it's convienant for you to hate on the show. So what's the difference between you and who you're hating on? 😂
@@IarwainBen-adaryou've already decided it's not Canon so why are you bringing it back to Canon when you know it's not already? You just enjoy being upset at this point it seems to me.
@@zStC1 so many conclusions being jumped to by 2 comments. You need help. The canon of the show made it clear he has mind control powers but they ignore it when they need to are you dense. Just admit you don’t understand or even know what internal consistency is 🤡. If you think calling out the writing is nitpicking when that’s literally the most important part of STORY telling you need a psych evaluation. Please never procreate and or write your own story for all our sakes
It's like the showrunners heard the story of the Silmarillion some time ago and wanted to excitedly tell us the 2nd age part, but did it in elementary school kind of way while also forgetting the main idea of the first couple of thousand years. "You remember the guy I told you about right, well now he's there... And then this happened. Oh yeah and there was an eagle and some halflings and some Morgoth guy, but that's not important at the moment..."
People hating on this show gives me hope for humanity, standing up for what's right. Keep up the gatekeeping people, let's give this show The Acolyte treatment.
I have a very easy solution. Did Tolkien write it? If yes, it is Lord of the Rings, if NO, it is not!
So that includes the movies, right?
I've got an easy solution for you too: Copy all pages of Tolkien's writings and merge them into a video program for creating clips. Tatah, and you've got the perfect cinematic adaptation of all of his works!
That has always been the case. Just because I write Aragorn became and ice cream truck driver doesnt make it lord of the rings. Its a basic concept. Always has been. You arent laying any new tracks.
This applies to anything.
It's not lord of the rings, it's an adaption of lord of the rings (or more accurately, an adaption of some of the stories from middle earth). No movie, show or game will be more than an adaption.
You can have SOME freedom because it's an adaptation but it must be Tolkienian in spirit at least. This garbage is not. At all.
What Orcs to elves is what Rings of Power to Lord of The Rings.
You want to see Sauron at work, setting up the Free Peoples? He is a shape shifter. Imagine he is the eagle....
😮😮😮
in that case, he also shook the Valar tree so it’ll shed petals, and make Miriel lead the army.
“If an Eagle comes to your coronation, Miriel, it will be a great omen”
Then an Eagle comes to Miriel’s coronation:
“The Eagle favours Pharazôn! All hail!” 🤷WTF
Sauron is evil, he isnt overtly malicious without cause. He is logical evil, not killing spree evil. He can do horrific things, when he wants an outcome. The books show that quite well. He will do anything, anything, to suit his ends. He wont just do something for no reason though. The scene that reflect this best is the boat sinking. He warns the old man, hey grab hold of something. Why? The old man was nice to him and why not warn him? Yet he wasnt going to lift a finger to save him. That is evil, but its not malicious. He didnt insult the guy or relish it. For me, thats how Sauron always has been in the books. Calculating, focused evil. He wants to rule the world, not torture every living thing in it. He has the ability to laugh, yes, and find amusement, and even joy. It just gets channeled into evil actions most often.o
It's the difference between Morgoth and Sauron. Morgoth wanted to destroy Arda, to ruin it completely and utterly. Sauron wants to rule it and make it "perfect". It's just his idea of perfect is making every living being a mind slave to his will.
@@Arnorian3320This.
Morgoth would be Chaotic Evil, and Sauron was more Lawful Evil (especially when he took over as the new Dark Lord, and into the 3rd Age, etc)
the problem lies with the fact that they treat Sauron like your average human dictator and not like a corrupted Maia.
In LOTR he is pretty much a recluse. He wasn’t always so elusive.
My head-cannon Sauron is someone who was so traumatized by Morgoth that he developed severe OCD with his evil 😂
The orc wanting to stay home with his pregnant wife is the dumbest thing ever. And this show as a lot of stupid things going on in it.
Its because these are World of Warcraft or The Elder Scrolls orcs. Nothing wrong with them when used in their proper universes but Middle Earth isnt Tamriel or Azaroth and thus we need Tolkein Orcs.
@@GM-db4bv Yeah, the problem is not actually the baby at all, it’s the dad saying “must we go to war again?” There is functionally no difference between that orc and an average man in this world, and it feels wrong.
I dunno, it reminds me of Shagrat and Gorbag in The Two Towers. They grumble about the war and the "bosses," and fantasize about getting away from it all. Like, they're not pining for their families and talking about their kids, but it doesn't seem that far a stretch from what Tolkien suggests about orcs in that scene: that they have inner lives, relationships with each other, and a resentment for their position as cannon fodder. Anyway, between now (in Rings of Power) and the War of the Ring, the orcs have plenty of time to become more simply evil, especially under Sauron's influence.
@@MrHobbes6 Orcs have no loyalty. They'll question their leaders (in private), want more for themselves. They're not asking for a quiet life on a beach in Umbar with their wife.
just because orcs reproduce in the same way as the children of illuvatar does not mean they have traditional family structures. in fact i think we can be pretty confident that they don't.
Sauron and Morgoth have no power in the water. Ulmo has absolute power over water. Every llittle rivulet until the ocean. Sauron could not have downed ghe ship or knfluenced the seamonster. He might have fellt it coming, but from the Lore water and the sea are tabu for the forces of evil.
I'm convinced this show isn't paying attention to lore 😂
I'm pretty sure that the Valar removed most of their direct powers from Middle-Earth after the end of the First Age. After all, Ulmo removed his powers from the rivers Narog and Sirion, which made it possible for Nargothrond and Gondolin to be destroyed, respectively.
How do you explain the watcher in the water in Fellowship, then?
@@tsmcdiz1758 theres older and fouller things in the world. The watcher could be in the same vein as Ungoliant, something that came about when Middle earth was created.
My biggest issue is with the orc humanization ,creating out of Tolkien’s heroes actual war criminals ,and this was never his intent ,and he struggled the most with the orc origins because of the moral implications . And Amazon just decide to humanize them ,and the show runners insist ,they do it because they “ understand Tolkien,so well“ ! lol.
I think it’s good for people to contemplate the humanization of orcs. That is the purpose of art. Tolkien questioned it too.
@@MOME914 Tolkien never humanized them . Reproducing heterosexually is not humanization .
Because that would create villains out of his heroes . The “ there are very fine people on both sides” ,is definitely not Tolkien’s intent .
the very weird thing is how the Sauron timeline contradicts itself in season 2. In season 1 we clearly see Sauron beeing this force of nature, even beeing in his evil "Peter Jackson Armor" and already crowned with this spiked crown, commanding orcs into massive battles. But then in season 2 they show him struggling to get a room full of orks on his side, getting pathetically killed by his own crown and turned into spaghetti al nero di seppia because, apparently, he wasn't even crowned yet! Either they retconed that stuff and hoped noone would notice, or they actually forgot their introduction in season 1.
100%! The Sauron that gets stabbed isn’t even the tallest character in the room… he should be an uncanny & otherworldly presence.
Well said! It was a retcon.
They fucked up and now Amazon is trying to get it back on course. Trying being the operative word!
Why does the Eagle trust Pharazon? He’s against Elves 100% but the Eagles are most closely aligned with Elves of all the free peoples. They are literally the Great Birds of Manwë! Why would they choose a guy who hates the Valar and Elves unless they plan on fully ignoring the Jealousy of The Kingsmen! Also for the whole orc baby debacle. Just before we see the baby the orc dad is talking to Adar about how he wants to not fight and for them to be free and not have to follow a master into war. That’s the big issue is that orcs generally speaking want to destroy everything. Yes Tolkien had his own moral issues with making a whole species evil (as per one of his letters) but he never actually delivered on this idea.
Edit: I see you guys addressed the eagle thing. My impatience got the better of me. Sorry 😅
Also, why do the Numenoreans who hate elves see the eagle arriving as a good omen and not an invasive elf/Valar plot to influence them?
@@Don9872 too stupid to know they work with/for the elves I guess 🤦♂️ this show is so dumb on so many levels. It’s great tho if you don’t think about it for more than 5 seconds!
It’s true he never resolved the orc issue, but I think it would be odd to go in the opposite direction of the thing he was trying to resolve and just say orcs are irredeemable, and purely evil.
One thing in this show that keeps sticking out to me is dialog lines that are copied directly from the Peter Jackson movies. They seem so out of place when you hear them.
Have heard a few people claim that RoP is really just fanfiction. But I feel like in order to be fanfiction, the writer of it has to actually be a fan.
Heart attacks are less painful than this show.
Relax
And are over quicker.
@@ilkvomit88 this shjow is just pure shit
And yet people keep giving it eyeballs and money - EXACTLY what these vandals want.
I've had a heart attack, can confirm.
To your discussion regarding fridging, it was a 90's thing. You were right that it was a Green Lantern comic that got the term going but it was the Kyle Rayner Lantern who came home to find his girlfriend killed and stuffed in the fridge to get a story rolling (it's not even like it was a motivating factor for him being a superhero, it was a decent time into his tenure by that point). It's definitely a cheap way of getting drama out and tends to waste characters. But at the same time it shouldn't be avoided because "fridging bad" since sometimes yes, a character just doesn't have anywhere else to go and more, better stories can come from their death than their continued existence (keeping to comics, such as the death of Gwen Stacy over in Spider-Man).
In this case for the show, they were backed into a corner since the actress left. I guess they could have pulled an Adar and recast but really... did we need more of the forced romance of flipped Arwen and Aragorn?
She really wasn't that compelling of a character to begin with.
I am glad you guys addressed the fact that messengers are being killed. The show at least implies Sauron has them ambushed; however he has no people under his command to be able to do that, and besides him, there's no other person with the motivation to do so.
It was probably Sauron himself that got to them, he was travelling to the same place as they were at the same time.
@@YT.WillArcherbut it wasn’t at the same time…the messenger was sent well before Sauron was even released from Mordor
@@abovebeyondkct6589 pretty sure it wasn’t
I'd rather watch Tulkas bench press a planet for an hour than watch this show 😂
The simple fact is that if this show was good we wouldn’t be seeing so many videos on RUclips with thousands and thousands of views and likes. Look up Peter Jackson’s movie reviews and it’s all positive, with minor criticism. With ROP it’s the opposite lmao
You can’t say things like “Because the orcs are humanized means that means that Aragorn is war criminal”. Even in human war civilians are fair game if they support the war effort. During WW2 you can look at countless bombings meant to destroy the ability of enemy to make war. Particularly the destruction of the German war machine was crucial in securing victory. Those factories, mines, and warehouses were run by civilians and although unfortunate are necessary to be destroyed to have victory. This isn’t a pointless victory of conquest either, it was to defeat an evil aggressor which is a perfect description of Orcs in Tolkien universe.
I think it’s dumb to humanize them because they are not humans. They are wholly evil and treacherous especially to each other. They as a species do not have true free will like man. They are and always will be slaves to their ancient fear of Morgoth. They cannot be reformed they are monsters. Just because they look like a person doesn’t mean they are. They will always hate men, nature, elves, and free creatures living happy because they were twisted to be that way by Morgoth.
Thank you, gentlemen, for yet again watching ROP so that I don't have to. Your sacrifice is very much appreciated. I have watched other reviews in order to hear different viewpoints. I do get the feeling that you're kinder than many other commentators. 😊❤❤❤😊
>show up to a coronation
>refuse to elaborate
>leave
Chad Eagle
Talking Eagles would ruin it for me i'm glad they didnt do that
Agreed, since the show makers would probably do it poorly and yet in the book of Return of the King Gwaihir tanks - what would you of done if it was your choice?”
fanfiction crap where "evil is misunderstood" - exactly like every fanfic by a narcissistic psychopath
You have here what looks like a loving orc father comforting his crying orc baby.
In the Peter Jackson movies we have orcs arguing, killing, and then eating each other!
I hope that father didn't accidentally wind up eating his son!
The term 'fridging' was coined by comic book fan (and later writer) Gail Simone in 1999, named after an incident in Green Lantern vol. 3 #54 (1994), written by Ron Marz. The story includes a scene in which the title hero, Kyle Rayner, comes home to his apartment to find that the villain Major Force had killed Rayner's girlfriend, Alexandra DeWitt, and stuffed her into a refrigerator.[1]
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how TV works. The stories are written by a writers room guided by the showrunners. One writer is then assigned to write the full script for each episode based on those stories. Directors also dont have as much influence over TV as they do with movies.
The Eagle remained silent, because it was too embarrassed to admit it had forgotten Pharazon's Uber Eats order.
🤣😂
Fully agreed with Yoystan on this one. The show seems to want to have it both ways: (1) assuming prior knowledge of significant characters and events without having to set them up and (2) wanting to significantly change things or set up new plot points so that it can stand alone (even if that may end up being contradictory with existing lore). They need to choose one and stick to it. You can't name drop "Sauron" and expect everyone to tremble as if it's obvious how heinous of a character he is when he was shown to be incompetent even at convincing orcs to do his bidding. But if he is so scary, then at least have the other characters look like they care more about him being at large in the world, as opposed to these impotent elves that don't seem to think of him as much of a threat.
@35:29 ROP is not that kind of show. It is a textook example of why "Show, don't tell" is such an important part of cinema writing. We're constantly just being told things in exposition dumps in the form of conversations between characters who likely arleady know what they're being told. It's maid and butler dialogue
Did Halbrand seem afraid of a single Numenorean in this show? Their army consisted of a bunch of out of shape 20 year olds.
And didn't he see that they were barely trained?
"Its better to equate them to zombies"
The closest my universe has to "monsters" is essentially like this as well. They're basically zombified with only a few still having their souls left intact, and even the ones that do still have their souls are still enthralled.
Elendil is supposed to be like 8 feet tall. His name is literally Elendil the Tall.
In the show he is Elendil the small..
no surprise, Galadriel is 5.3 feet tall...
Why isnt sauron on numenor? Isnt he supposed to deceive them? Isnt Sauron's influence what leads to the fall of numenor? Or they havent got there yet?
Probably will see that in Season 3 or 4 (not there yet)
In Tolkiens writings the smithing of the rings destruction of Eregion and the destruction of numenor are far separated in time
I've heard from someone on the set of season 1 that 'one of' the actors would make themselves vomit before each scene to get into the headspace - not sure to what level of serious to take this, but the fact that i was not surprised and thought it could apply to any of the characters says it all
as an actor, that is an absolutely insane choice to make before *every* scene. but definitely not surprising considering some of the acting on this show 😖
49:13 I dont think you are quite right here in your discussion as in the prologue to S1 Ep1 narrated by Galadriel she says “Morgoth would be defeated but his orcs spread to every corner of Middle Earth under the command of his most devoted servant, the cruel & terrible sorcerer Sauron” & they show that shot of all the orcs bowing down to him looking imposing, standing about 10 foot tall in armour like the Jackson movies (it’s actually a pretty good shot). So they do expressly say he’s Morgoths 2nd in command & in control of all the orcs after his defeat which is completely at odds with flashback scene in S2 Ep1. So they really don’t do themselves any favours.
If they saw this show, JRRT would be annoyed, but Christopher would be devastated.
The horse is the one character I actually like in this show 😭 the high point so far has been when the NotHobbits got whisked up into the tornado, i cackled 😭
Stop trying to make evil relatable and subjective
They are humanizing all evil
Yeah, because humans can't be evil and evil can't be human 😂
@@zStC1He’s not saying humans can’t be evil, he’s saying that they’re making all evil seem like it ONLY comes from people rather than a force beyond their comprehension.
huge fk up with the orc family. Show runners have only a passing familiarity with the world.
I really appreciated your three season two videos!
It sounds like you are both grading on a slightly different scale, one based on Tolkien lore and the other partially on Tolkien lore but more on entertainment.
Really great listening to the analysis!
Thanks again
Are you legitimately reviewing this show?? Inconceivable.
the orc/ork issue was something even Tolkien struggled with because that very thing of the heroes killing orcs that could be redeemed, plus their origins. He coulding come up with an idea for them that wholly resolved stuff ("myths transformed" section Morgoth's ring, IIRC) so the show isn't alone in that.
nvm, you pointed it out
I have a short on my channel of that Arondir fight scene. If you look at it slow, he runs in and jumps into the wagon, then spirals out from under it’s cover. It’s a pretty neat scene, honestly I like stunts rather than straight up fighting.
It’s nice how- even though there is a lot to drag the show for-you all give credit where it is due.
I thought it was a very good point that if the show wants to be it’s own thing then it has to do all the heavy lifting of fleshing out the characters rather than relying on what’s already been established in Tolkien’s lore
i believe tolkien towards the end of his life believed orcs had a soul, and came into conflict with his own former ideas of aragorn wiping them out. I can’t find the reference however so i could be wrong
I would have to agree with Royan here that, lore problems aside. The show is at least much more entertaining than the boredom from last season. Each episode has things happening at least.
I hate the way they are portraying Pharazon. Absolutely neutered such an iconic villain from the works. Gone is Pharazon the Golden too prideful for his own good. Instead we get this scheming wormtounge character with no plans of his own. He is terrible. About the morality of orcs, to be honest I missed the child orc. We've seen orcs have desires beyond evil and war before. Seeing a child orc doesn't raise much red flags for me. I do see the point, but think I agree mostly with Royen.
I just finished S2 Ep 3 of the Rings of Power. I'm conflicted. I love LOTR, but this show doesn't feel like it's hitting the right notes. The acting feels stale and cardboard, there's no real heart behind it. The weaving storylines just like S1 are making it very boring. By the time the story swings back to one of the interesting plots I've already forgot about it.
Although I reserve judgement regarding whether they are going to present the Orcs empathetically, I genuinely hope they don't go down that route for the very reasons you say, as it makes it morally ambiguous when you consider how LOTR characters kill them in a seemingly remorseless manner.
3:02 the worst thing this show does is make everyone in middle Earth look Human Especially the Numenoreans they seem so human 😂. Except for the Orcs they look great but it just yakes you out of it when some of those races are supposed to look a certain way but they don't. How the heck did Jackson do it so much better almost 25yrs ago oh i know because he loved Tolkien's work and didn't want to put his messages into it but Tolkien's message and he was a competent director unlike these jokers 😂.
Sauron is apparently an omnipresent god because he can be in Eregion helping Celebrimbor to make rings while simultaneously collapsing bridges, causing earthquakes, poisoning trees, and reanimating the spirits of dead men
15:30 this was a callback to when aragorn legolas and gimli found out that merry & pippin escaped to the forest and Gimli says "WHAT MADNESS DROVE THEM THERE"
The Green Lantern comic in question was in mid 90s, not the Golden Age. The trope existed prior to that in storytelling, not just comics, but that instance was particularly egregious, which is why it became the trope namer.
per Galadriel, Halbrand smashed the bridge and woke up the Barrow wights before going to Mordor.
To isolate Lindon from Eregion.
Regarding Isildur, to me the biggest issue isn't his story, but the actor. I just cannot take him seriously. No matter what he does, he looks like a soft, whiny weakling to me that in no way matches the character he is supposed to portray.
The only way the Rings work in the show is that they are already corrupting the elves even before they put them on. I agree with cleaning up the timeline and explaining what has been happening. For example, the elves have been guarding the Southlands, but after years of doing so and seeing nothing, they are claiming "Mission Accomplished," but the Orcs have still somehow managed to gather in such numbers and attack and kill elf garrisons but no one seems concerned.
The orc baby scene is the "jumping the Shark" moment. Its already over the show runners just dont know it yet.
I gave season 2 a fair chance. The first 2 episodes still had the embarrassing dialogue, wooden acting from actors allergic to testosterone, and atrocious pacing.
By the middle of episode 3 I had to turn it off. This is actually one of the worst shows in the top tier spending level of television. I feel terrible for the talented people in the background working on a show with such astoundingly pathetic writing.
I'll likely youtube the guaranteed memeable moments going forward, but I cancelled Prime today and I'm not going back. To do this to the patron saint of fantasy's master work is unforgivable and I will no longer be part of it.
Good on you! Amazon Prime makes A LOT of awful TV shows, and ROP is just one of them.
I disagree completely on the orc baby making Aragorn look bad. Aragorn did not kill civilian orcs (to the extent they exist), he was killing an invading army. To my knowledge he did not then go genocide the orcs, they just faded back into the dark places of middle earth without Sauron holding them together. Even though there are traces of humanity left, they are so corrupted that they cannot form a society.
Gentlemen, have you done an episode discussing the "questionable" casting of ROP? Here's a thought: recast it with great actors. Start with Deep Space Nine and Avery Brooks as Gil Galad... Galadriel? Sigorney Weaver. Elrond? James McAvoy. Obviously, this is fantasy, but what a huge difference it would make. Imagine Shatner as Celebrimbor and Nimoy as Sauron...
Why indeed was the Palantir forbidden? Did we miss the scene where all Elven artefacts are banned in Numenor? Not to mention that there were AT LEAST seven of them throughout Numenor
Have Brand turn into Annatar in front of Celembrimbor and Galadriel in Season 1. Show him taking charge over the orcs and commanding Adar to cause chaos in the Southlands in E1S2 would fix most of RoP for me.
Even if I never watch the show, I always love your discussions of it.
Respect for the Lore. That’s what Yoystan and Royan give us:
Jeff Bezos walking into his writer's room after listening to Rhoyn (sp?), Yoystan's part-time cohost, craft a better backstory narrative for sauron's evil influence than them after giving them a billion dollars to make a show:
"Rhoyn, Yoystan's part-time cohost on Men of the West! was able to build this! (narrative) in a cave! (podcast) with a box of scraps! (only his brain)"
ROP writers: "I'm sorry sir. I'm not Rhoyn, Yoystan's part-time cohost on Men of the West."
The glazing is beyond unreal. You manage a Krispy Kreme by chance?
With the baby orc issue. You could argue that these orcs are 3000 years less twisted than the ones Aragorn fought
Numenorians loved their horses so much they would NOT ride them into battle.
Back to back to back? Guess im not sleeping tonight!
Honestly these episodes show from Sauron's perspective. In his view Middle Earth and it's people are chaotic and the only solution is to bring everything under his complete control. And he will do anything he can to achieve that.
They did right at the start of season one Gladrial explains who Sauron is and how evil he is and his connection to Morgoth
The cope of these guys, picking tiny portions of this horror comic to praise ,while 99% of it is trash.
“[Tolkien] believes that ‘there’s a little good in the worst of us and a little bad in the best of us’ ; but not that there’s a little good in evil and little evil in good.
He believes in human moral complexity but not in logical moral complexity.”
✍: Peter Kreeft,
📖: 'The Philosophy of Tolkien'
The 'Deathstar' argument was literally one used by Timothy McVeigh
Sauron in the second season is like Kang, killed by ants. He wouldn't be even weak at that point, to be killed by some random Orcs.
The obvious issue is writing, that a writer that doesn't understand Tolkien can't write Tolkien. An actor can do his job without having read Tolkien but not the people who are supposed to direct/write, you just need a visionary for this, and a really good writer. I think it's a tremendous task either way, even if you had the rights to the Silmarillion there would be a lot of gap to account for and even then Silmarillion's in the Second Age is more of a history book rather than having coherent stories so for it not to be strange, for characters to not have weird dialogue that doesn't fit, some kind of genius is needed, I don't think it's such a simple task.
I liked the Eagle scene given the context from the Silmarillion but maybe that's not what it ends up being, someone said that's not over so we may very well see that develop further, I have been waiting a long time to see an Eagle talk though.
Adar suprise stabbed him in the head, he was finished after that, and he used magic to survive it even still. Personally I hope the eagles don't talk it'll be stupid, like the talking dragon in the hobit ruined that for me
Guys, guys... guys. That was no Eagle and no Numenor. That was Alduin and Helgen and **Jeremy Soule music swells** Farinmor is Dragonborn.
My initial reaction:
The Sauron storyline is ok. They need to make this character more “chaotic evil” rather than just another villain.
The Elf/Rings storyline is decent. However, something just isn’t right with me about the storyline.
The Human/Arondir storyline is interesting. These characters are the most intriguing and will keep me watching the series.
The Orc storyline is interesting. The Orc perspective will please some viewers.
The Hobbit/Wizard storyline is mediocre. Traveling to places not before seen raises the bar slightly, but storyline seems to be a Frodo/Sam rehash.
The Dwarf storyline is barely tolerable.
Final two thoughts:
It seems to me that the producers of this show are trying hard to show viewers touch-points from the LotR movies, but then quickly going into a different direction.
Finally, many scenes look too close to Game of Thrones-like to me. Is Rings of Power where old Game of Thrones characters go to retire?
Tolkien himself wrote that orcs reproduced that they were capable of good and that there was no such thing as absolute evil in his work.
Source?
Morgoth was Clearly ‘absolute evil’ - at the end / final battles of The 1st Age. That’s why Eru and the good Valar bound him and hurled him outside the Gates of Night , beyond the boundaries of the universe / reality, till the time of the Dagor Dagorath at the End of Time.
@@diggerdog9205In the Sirmarilion we are told that the orcs multiplied like the children of Iluvatar, that is, the elves and humans, that is, that they reproduced normally, and Tolkien himself said that there were female orcs and that the orcs were capable of doing good.
@giancarlo5945 They asked you to source it, not paraphrase how you perceived what was written. Page number and page line where the exact words are written that orcs arent what they are shown to be in basically every single instance of their pagetime.
@@zedorian6547for the orcs had life and multiplie after the manner of the children of iluvatar That is just what the sirmarilion says and you can search for it on Google and it will appear. I even have the screenshot. Secondly, in one of Tolkien's letters he says that there were female orcs, and then there is a video of Tolkien himself speaking saying that He does not believe in absolute evil, even in one of his letters he says that he does not deal with absolute evil in his work and you can search for all that on the internet, even Nerd of the Rings mentions exactly the same thing in his video of this chapter.
I have my problems with the show--to put it mildly--but our great friend and host is right in his aside. Trystan Gravelle is rocking the role of Pharazôn.
THAT EAGLE SCENE omg 😨
That shit was horrible
I know that you said in the video that at no point in the show have they established that Sauron was Morgoth's right-hand man. However, in the very first episode season one Galadriel tells us that he was "Morgoth's most devoted servant." Now, you obviously don't have to take that to mean that he is a right-hand man or even a top commander. You do have to acknowledge, though, the implication that the Elves who knew of Sauron, which would have been most of them, would have viewed him as a scion of evil and ill-intent akin to Morgoth himself. So, while the show might be portraying individuals not viewing Sauron as a great threat, we can also say that it's a display of bad writing and character development on the part of the show runners/directors/writers.
Yoystan, because of my Elder Brother doesn't want me to look up Spoilers until the Season is done and now Reviews...I won't be any commenting on these or doing anything to participate in these Reviews until I have seen these Episodes!!!
I would love to see ROP as it airs, but Because of these reasons and Assignments I won't be watching anything of this until the Season is and other things is Done in my Life. It's a very busy 3 Months...Marion Baggins Out!!!
Love you guys and your insights. Amazons Rings of Power in my opinion is an abomination if you are trying to fit it into the guilded chest of Professor Tolkiens legendarium. On its own, (and if we don’t try to make sense of the artistic license they have taken in developing this money grab by superimposing it against the Masterpiece that is Tolkiens legacy), it’s not bad. Surely Season 2 is a massive improvement over the first season. I agree with you that director and writer continuity is critical for something as grand as this. In my opinion, the hopscotch, let’s have someone else direct this episode approach leads me to believe that Amazon is just creating jobs for young, up and coming directors and writers.
I agreed with almost everything you boys expressed in the reviews. I listened to all 4 hours of them. My advice going forward is just think of this like an alternate universe, just like DC and Marvel have theirs. Rings of Power takes place in an alternate Middle Earth, period. Then we can truly let it wash over us and simply be entertained. May the great Professor Tolkien cease perpetually rolling over in his grave as Amazon defiles the greatest Mythos ever created by a mere mortal man……..Or was he? Holla back!
Thanks for watching this so I don’t have too much.
When you think the show couldn't get any worse... We get baby orcs haha 😂
There is another problem that you didnt mention. We have no idea why Durin senior accepted the rings,he says nothing about it and it really pisses me off.
It was announced some time ago that all of the episodes are going to be directed by women. So we run into agenda before script and production
I thought it was really dumb that the Numenoreans are being shown to be this pacifist culture that is grappling with its first ever experience with military death. At the time of the Downfall, Numenor had multiple colonies in Middle-earth and had subjugated regions like Harad and made them tributary kingdoms. They were initially at the founding of Numenor, more pacifist but by their noontide they had become a massive military might, so much so that they defeated Sauron's armies in the late Second Age