EDIT: Warner Bros have released the claim. This video will be staying live. Hi guys, you may have noticed this video got hit with copyright a couple of hours ago. I can’t tell you why RUclips has waited before detecting anything, as the video has been cleared since Saturday. I have submitted an appeal. If the appeal is accepted, the video will remain live. If the appeal is rejected, I will receive a second copyright strike. There is nothing I could have done to avoid this. Usually YT will tell you immediately if copyrighted content is detected, but that didn’t happen with this video. I can’t tell you why. Either way, at this point this has been my best performing video, so thank you guys for watching it.
I was really confused when I tried to return to the video and it wasn’t on your feed, but in my history. Initially when I tried to return to video it had said it had been claimed by Warner bros. That confused me because the previous one was fine. Then the second attempt just said it was unavailable. I’m glad it’s back and hope that it was just a mistake. Best of luck!
I don’t get this, I highly doubt this video would act as a replacement for watching the movies, if anything it will get more people to want to check out the extended versions
It gets better. In the book it's implied that he imports so much luxury stuff from the Shire, including pipeweed, that it affects local economy in a significant way.
Hypocrisy in this case would be a weak assumption. Saruman is a prominent person who probably receives lots of important guests (or at least used to), and such a figure would likely maintain a stock of luxury items to have on hand for those guests even though he doesn't necessarily use them himself. Heck, most people do this; for example, maybe you keep some sweeteners and creamer cups for friends even though you personally drink your coffee black.
@@jroggs85 In the books and some extra material (and I think we can rely on books to explain some deeper lore for the movie), pipeweed smoking is something that is unheard of outside of Shire and some bordering territories. Gandalf had an interest in hobbits and visited them often, so he picked up the habit. He explained to fellow wizards that this "art" has a calming effect on the mind or something like that. Saruman initially mocked him, but later he tried it secretly out of curiosity and took a liking to it. But he was too prideful to admit to like something he mocked. As a result, he started to secretly buy large amounts of the best pipeweed from Shire. And yes, he had a stash with the finest food and pipeweed just for himself.
I think the fix for the Elven Rope scene is even easier: just don't have Sam tell Frodo to catch it. Keep everything else the same. He can notice it fall, reach for it, cry in dismay, and he's father enough up the rope from Frodo for Frodo to hear and see Sam's desperation and make a snap decision to try to catch the box and then lose his footing. You retain all of the character work the scene wanted, and the heightened drama, but also add in a little bit extra for Frodo, who was willing to risk his life to save something Sam valued greatly without being asked.
It wouldn’t make very much sense for Frodo to risk his life over a random wooden box he doesn’t know the contexts of.. I think the best way to play this scene is to have the box slip out of Sam’s pocketses. Sam give a reaction like “oh no!” And Frodo being caught off guard with the box landing on his head and have that cause him to lose his footing. Frodo falls in the mist and Sam immediately cries out for him. A small pause for tension, and so Frodo can pick himself up right before calling back out to Sam that he’s totally fine. Sam comes down and apologises excessively to Frodo and Frodo asks what the box is for. After Sam explains Frodo smiles and says something along the lines off “I guess you got sick of eating the same food too” or “you always loved your spices” I think with Hobits having giant feet that basically act as professional mountain shoes it’s unlikely for Frodo to lose his footing any other way.
@@nielslehnen6076 I don't think that's how it works. When mountain climbing you have to use your feet to hold onto tiny crevices. Hobbit feet would probably be a hindrance.
Have him shout "Nooo" instead, and Frodo can assume it's important, try to catch it and fall. Sam doesn't look bad and Frodo still looks heroic and you get to keep the joke. That said, I don't think it makes Sam look as bad as it is made out. He just didn't fully consider the situation in the half second before he shouted.
@@dutchmansmine9053 Are you kidding? Hobbit feet are PERFECT for mountain climbing. One word: "Toes". Instead of trying to jam the entire point of their shoe into a tiny crevice, they can actually hold on with their toes. The fact that they don't wear shoes lets them actually feel out the rock and find the best purchase, and the fact that they can move their toes independently means that they can precisely control what part of their foot they apply pressure to. It might sound ridiculous, but you can try it for yourself. Go to a staircase, take your shoes off, and step up with just your toes (if you have trouble, step up normally and slowly wiggle your feet back off the step). You might need to keep your balance with your hands; just make sure your weight is being supported by your feet. You should find that it's actually fairly easy to hold yourself up with just your toes. Now, mark off where your toes were on the step, and put your shoes back on. Try to support yourself without letting the tip of your shoes go past this line. You'll probably find this to be impossible, regardless of what type of shoe you try it with.
I watch the extended editions every year. One year for Two Towers, I dozed off at Treebeard's poetry and woke up after Treebeard picks up Merry and Pippin. It was perfect.
That's why Peter Jackson is a genius! He knew that viewers might start to feel a little tired half-way through, so he designed a cosy little nap-time sequence in the middle of the trilogy for the audience to briefly nod off and not miss anything.
I understand your reasoning in your arguments. However, I love this trilogy, world and characters so much that I will take a 20 hour edit with "unnecessary" scenes al day.
God the commentary from the writers is sheer life-force to listen to. They're actually discussing characters' purposes, and what a specific scene is contributing to the tale. Night and day, to come from watching so many interviews for shows and movies of more recent years where the creators and actors are backwashing agreeable phrases about relatability and timeliness, but never digging in. Because the literal content isn't backing their nice ideas.
Definitely a lot better than "Dany sort of forgot about the iron fleet." It's a passionate discussion not explaining your shitty story for the audience to understand.
Showing the Orcs meeting up with the Uruk-hai settled a frustration for me. In the theatrical edition, they just seemed to appear like they were always there
@@leftymcnally6913 when I was a kid I didn’t even understand the difference between orcs and Uruk-hai because of this reason lol. Seeing them being different foot soldiers to different leaders really made it click for me as i was getting older and understanding Tolkien to a different level
"You stink of horse" is not a comic relief line. It shows Saruman's disdain for Rohan, as well as his lack of appreciation and superiority he feels over Wormtongue.
i always took Saruman telling Wormtongue that he stinks of horse as another little way of demonstrating his distaste for Rohan in particular. Horses are all over Rohan's heraldry and are central to how they wage war. a small detail but i always heard it as "you're reminding me of those disgusting horse people."
Actually I would push it a little further and say it also underlines the fact that Saruman lost his way as shown by his clear disgust of nature. Similarly, as with the desecration of Fangorn scene.
@olajza91 absolutely. Many small additions to the extended editions may not have key plot or character significance but absolutely do have key thematic importance. Theme is one of the most central concepts in the lord of the rings and is one of the main reasons middle earth feels so real. RFT sometimes misses the importance of theme in LOTR In some of these rankings
I agree with the purpose of showing how Saruman has lost his way, and the emphasis on his dislike of horses", but this doesn't change my view that the scene as a whole belongs in D.
Just pointing out the bloody obvious, but I want to make sure we're not taking this for granted......... I absolutely love that the first thing that Random addresses is some corrections to his previous video.
Thank you for drawing attention to this, because it is something worth explicitly praising; I'm new here, and that's the kind of thing that made me subscribe, so it's nice to see that being highlighted.
@@AnarchistArtificer You will enjoy his other videos as well, I'm sure. And in a few weeks the new season of ROP will bring lots of joy for all........ Thanks !
"You stink of horse" could be interpreted as a derivative way of saying "You've been in Rohan too long amongst those people". That wouldn't be out of character considering how Saruman feels about Rohan at this point.
Nah Wormtongue is a man of Rohan. He was a traitor to his own people. That's why you see him freaking the fuck out when he sees the Uruk-hai army. He didn't want his people dead, he just wanted to be on the winning side. He signed up for victory and leadership, not genocide. He says you stink of horse because that was his mode of transport as he FLED. He smells like he was riding on a horse for a long time because he failed and had to come running to Saruman. Saruman is pissed that he lost Theoden, and Gandalf is alive. Wormtongue is at least partially responsible for that failure and now ran so fast that he reeks of failure and flight. It is mostly empty jabs at Wormtongue to show displeasure up until the Ring of Barahir is mentioned.
Ironically the scene where the hobbits light the fire on Weathertop was the opposite in the book. Aragorn explicitly tells them to make the fire and keep it going because the Nazgul don't like fire and can see perfectly well in the dark anyway.
Yes, much better in the book, where they Know they're surrounded and possibly going to be attacked. A fire at least gives them some light and potential defence. But they wanted to have Aragorn jump in like a badass, which means Aragorn had to leave for some reason, - which he never would have done if he knew they were surrounded. Small changes leading to big changes, but at least the movie logic flows - even if different.
It’s a change, for sure, but I think it makes sense to do it that way for the film. It reinforces that, even now, the hobbits are somewhat foolish and naive about their situation and the wider world, but that Frodo is more aware of the danger because of his connection to the ring. It’s subtle, but I think it works pretty well.
Fair perspective, but I never thought of the hobbits as naïve. Green, yes, but they knew full well they were being tracked by demonic forces of the immortal dark lord, who will kill them on capture. That's easy enough for even simple hobbits to grasp. But yes, the movie at least has internal logic.
You may genuinely be one of my favorite RUclipsrs right now. Like, you don't just express your conclusion on things, you thoroughly explain why, thus equipping us with the knowledge to think for ourselves and come to our own educated conclusions. Also, absolutely love the presence of the wheelie boy. Good to see him hanging around.
I’ll do a big gamble here and say YES. I still can’t believe they took out the Boromir Faramir scene, just like the Saruman death scene in The Return of the King. 11/10 scenes.
I'm fairly certain that Legolas scoring so quickly at the beginning of the battle was primarily just because he still had arrows; as soon as he ran out he was forced to engage in melee, which was a lot slower, whence him losing his early lead to Gimli over the subsequent hours.
@@TheCaspTube That doesn't really seem in character for either of them; their mutual respect begins as admiration for eachothers' skill as warriors, so it would be rather disrespectful to underestimate eachtohers' abilities like that. (There's probably a better word for that, but I can't think of it right now) If anything, it would make more sense to assume that their scores are so 'low' because they weren't fighting for the entire night; there would, necessarily, have been lulls in the combat while, for example, the orcs were breaking through the gates, during which everyone would have taken a breather.
@@brettbaker8497 this is the answer. Legolas ran out of arrows and his effectiveness was severely lessened. Plus he didn’t participate in any fighting other than on top of the wall before the gate is breached and they are forced to take cover in the hall. Gimli meanwhile kills dozens of orcs on the bridge, in the drainage pits, and in several other locations.
I'd actually push back on the Entdraft scene being as bad as it might appear. For one, because of the way scenes were rearranged, Treebeard doesn't actually tell the hobbits of the dangers of the forest until after the scene, meaning the only reason they have to believe that the forest might be dangerous is that forests aren't very safe. Just by watching the first movie, where we're likely supposed to believe they are at least outdoorsy to an extent, I don't really think they'd find a random forest that menacing. In the same vein, you could argue that because Treebeard only clarifies the danger of the huorns after what happens, perhaps he plainly just didn't expect the huorns to be quite so aggressive, meaning the scene of him telling him about how dangerous can be could also be a tacit realization on his part that he should probably not let them out of sight again. Considering no huorns assaulted them throughout the night and for some time while they were awake, that doesn't seem so crazy. Pippin implies the only reason he wad drinking the draft is because Treebeard talked about, as he claims in the scene that Treebeard advised against drinking it in the way Merry was drinking it. This tells us there was a scene between Treebeard putting them to sleep and the Entdraft scene, where the hobbits met Treebeard and were left alone for even longer. There may have been a whole day of them getting on just fine until they started bothering the huorn, meaning the danger of the forest probably just wasn't that evident to either them or even Treebeard, despite him surely understanding the huorns are not anything to fool around with. Merry and Pippin were aware there was such a thing as talking, moving trees, but besides Treebeard, who turned out to be an unabashed good guy, they never encountered a tree that was outright threatening. As for their general behavior during the scene, I just don't believe your read on it is quite fair. While, yes, the first movie was certainly traumatic, there was never any singular piece of development in the first movie that says they don't fool around anymore. In the Entdraft scene, they bicker over some water that makes you bigger. They have been on their own for some time in a place that, until the huorn attack, wasn't established to be more dangerous than a regular forest, by anyone in their vicinity. They were stuck there with no self-evident danger for god-knows-how-long, and they were probably bored out of their minds. Frankly, in their position, I'd probably be fooling around, too.
In regards to the scene of Frodo and Sam climbing down a cliff in Emyn Muil, I think the severity of Sam's words is also quite exaggerated. At no point in the trilogy is Sam portrayed as someone who's good at making rational split-second decisions. When he slipped and the little box of salt fell out, there is simply no way he considered even half the dangers of Frodo having to reach out to catch it. Hell, if anything, we have reason to believe he sometimes struggles to think of concepts that aren't explicitly described. Drawing from the scene where Frodo and Sam follow behind Gollum as he's hunting a fish in the creek, where Sam calls Gollum stinker, he continuously rails against Gollum and how he's a despicable villain because of the influence of the ring, at no point registering that when Frodo defends him, he's simultaneously clinging onto hope that he himself is not beyond saving despite being the Ring-Bearer. Given this, I really don't think Sam even began to consider that catching the little box might put Frodo in danger. I have no trouble at all giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that if he'd had enough time to consider that Frodo may have also slipped if he were to attempt to catch it, Sam wouldn't have said anything at all.
Lastly, I wanna repeat something said by someone else in the comments in regards to the scene where Saruman and Grima discuss the Ring of Barahir. When Saruman says Grima stinks of horse, I think this works as a set-up for the disdain he feels for the people of Rohan, which is made much more obvious in the Return of the King Extended Edition. Horses are the symbol of Rohan, featuring in much of their heraldry and being their main mode of conducting warfare. To insult Grima, a man of Rohan, for stinking of horse is not that much different from what he tells Théoden in the third movie. It shows that, at the end of the day, Saruman regards Grima with as much disdain as he does any other man of Rohan.
@@justiniani.4501 I think this is a pretty great response. One of the weird things I have noticed with many critics now is that they expect every character to act in the most rational way at all times with a total consideration of all possibilities. It’s somewhat bizarre to me. Yes there are many who write characters to act foolishly simply to move the plot but this hyper fixation on everyone being on their game at all times is a bit of an over correction in my estimation. All of us fall short regularly enough. Why can’t characters in story be the same.
This isn't an excuse for the elven rope scene, BUT there is a fakeout very similar to this in the book. Frodo slips over the edge of a cliff and Sam thinks he's died, only to find Frodo landed on a ledge a short way down. The scene is a problem in the movie because they tweaked the setup and made Sam endanger Frodo unnecessarily.
Additionally, in this scene of the book Sam is about to free-climb down the cliff, because he figures it is better that he slip and fall than that Frodo should. Frodo stops him, and they use the rope. It shows that Sam is dedicated to Frodo to the point of surrendering his life for him, at any time, for any reason. It's quite a good scene.
Oh wow, I had to think hard to remember this. The fake out drop happens near the very end, when they are in Mordor right? To me the rope scene only became a bit "irksome" after I read the book and realised, they changed a box of wonderful elven dirt and a mellorn seed to table salt - but it isn't an egregious change in context of the movie where the Shire never needs to be replanted.
There is another in Mordor, when they escape the tower and are caught on the road by oncoming reinforcements. They jump into the black, knowing that it's a dice roll between certain death and possible death. Luckily it's only about 10 meters and they fall into thorn bushes which softens the blow. But the Two Towers one is good too. It all adds to the idea of then being completely alone and without a path/guide, going "forward" wherever they can.
I want ot argue a bit on the final tally number as we should keep in mind that 42 and 43 kills in a battle regardless of how large it is, is insane and speaks volume to their skills as warriors. To put it in perspective I believe the numbers we get are that the Rohiram number at 3,000 while the Uruk are 10,000. For victory to be achieved every single man would need to kill roughly 4 enemies before they were to die, yet Legolas and Gimil are able to get 10x that number. Also gimli catching up to Legolas is not at all crazy considering he is a Melee specialist compared to Logolas who is more proficient in range combat, its why despite the initial lead Gimil is able to catch up and then take the lead. Finally it should be pointed out that exhaustion could play a part, as the fight continued on both would be getting more and more tired and thus would find themselves unable to dispatch enemies as quickly or effectively as the battle continues especially since they would likely constantly be facing against fresh Uruks given the superior numbers they had and less we forget that Uruks seems to be some of if not the toughest sons of bitches you can come across. I still think the scene deserves to be in B tier at the least.
In the film it's 300 (plus some number of elves, so 600?) vs. 10,000. The book is slightly more realistic. The Helm's Deep garrison is 1000, and I think Theoden brings another 1000 with him, so the Rohirrim number 2000 in total; not an unreasonable number for defending against a siege, especially one handled as incompetently as Saruman's army does. Helm's Deep in the book has also been repaired and provisioned and is in much better state than it is in the film.
Also Gimli camps two ladders and just kills Urul after Uruk. And legolas wpuldve lost anyways since Aragorn and Gimli also killed all the uruks on the brodge too. Its reasonable for Gimli to be able to beat Legolas but I think their kills shouldve been tripled at the very least
@@user-kn7qw4qr7t 600 vs 10 000 in a proper fortress isn't unrealistic really. The problem is orcs have very little self preservation instincts when they think they're winning and thus will commit to attacks no human army would. The use of gunpowder to blow up the outer wall was also necessary because of how much advantage a defender gets from a fortress.
“You stink of horse” isn’t a joke, surely - it’s an immediate mistreatment of Wormtongue (which ultimately has dire consequences for Saruman) as well as a demonstration of contempt for Rohan more generally. The culture that venerates horses is seen as primitive and not worthy of existence to Saruman whose fatal flaw is his arrogance and underestimating all of his opponents. It’s a stark contrast that Wormtongue essentially spits in the outstretched hand of peace from his own people (Men) despite his betrayal and instead, choosing to align with Saruman, whose first words to him are abusive.
I’m willing to gamble that TTT has a lot less critical and important scenes than Fellowship, but the lack of Faramir scenes in the this one was absolutely criminal.
The number of people a single individual kills in battle is actually quite low (unlike in video games). When you consider that in historical battles, an army tends to flee in a panic once they've taken something like 15% casualties, you realise that in fact, a large majority of the men on the field will have gone through the entire battle without killing anyone (most kills are made in the rout when the enemy is no longer putting up any effective resistance). So for Gimli and Legolas to have each killed around 40 enemies during the battle is already an extremely outsized achievement relative to what an ordinary soldier would be capable of in reality. Anyway, great video, I was looking forward to this one.
I believe RFT’s point was we see enough kills onscreen to deduce that legolas’ kill count should be in the hundreds over the duration of the whole fight when including how many kills Legolas likely had offscreen.
@@oahtobar1355Exactly. OP is correct that, in reality, medieval battles were usually not down-to-the-last-man killing sprees. But Middle Earth is not reality, orcs are not men who want to live and go home to their families, and Legolas is a centuries-old machine of death who doesn’t even need to sleep. Not quite the same thing as a medieval battlefield.
@@brianensign7638 Legolas may be a master warrior but he is way out of his (and elves in general) preferred way, as far as we can see in the movies, to fight here. Legolas is an Archer armed with bow and double knives. Not magical knives, just REALLY fancy ones. Even his bow is just a very well-made one. Until now, he has fought only partially armored foes, against which he can excel even in close combat. Being pinned by heavily armored siege troops on the highly crowded wall makes his job extremely hard once he is out of arrows or in h2h with Uruks. The fact that Legolas even survives the battle is a miracle as we can see better-suited (equipment and likely skill) Elves being cut down all over. And we have to remember that Gimli does not (really) have it much easier either. In the books it makes sense why Gimli became one of the main defenders of the Glittering Caves after The Wall was breached. A Tank of a Dwarf with Eomer and other Rohirrim with spears could've hold the entrance by themselves in style of Thermopylae in the worst case scenario! Ofc this wasn't part of the film where Gimli gets a role as a conveniently placed, living throwing weapon whose main mode of transport between places is by being flung be several things. Taking these in consideration, it is (i feel) possible to imagine both of them tallying up to maybe 50-60 (less for Legolas unless he can get enough timely refills of arrows, we mostly see him taking long/precision shots or shooting from behind the targets) but even with movie magic that amount feels a bit high to be "realistic".
@@Makapaa I think RFT's point was just that it's a bit strange for Legolas to kill 17 enemies in the first 5 minutes, and then to only kill a few dozen more over the next several hours. I personally don't think it's an issue, but his argument is more about the passage of time than it is about the 'power levels' of the characters.
@@brianensign7638 Passage of time does not matter in this IF we take the realities of the battle into account. Movie Magic only holds up until certain point, after which it comes ridiculous. I find it more ridiculous that Legolas would conserve his arrows the way it is shown in the movie. After all, he is most effective at range, not stuck in hand-to-hand with 3-5 elite warriors in full plate.
The biggest problem with the orc conflict in the movies is that movie Saruman is completely in lock step with Sauron. While book Saruman wants the Ring for himself and his Uruk-Hai are independent agents for his purposes. So the Uruk-Hai scenes are more book accurate in a way that doesn’t gel with the movies.
His intentions aren’t stated explicitly, but I think it’s implied that Movie Saruman was planning on betraying Sauron at some point, especially since Ugluk outright says “the master wants it for the war.” He’s already made it explicitly clear that he takes his orders from Isengard not from Mordor, so there’s only one “master,” he could be talking about. He even explicitly said “Saruman will have his prize.” I think he definitely wanted the Ring but also tried to maintained plausible deniability in case he didn’t get it, since it’s obvious he can’t challenge Sauron without it.
My not-having-read-the-book wife thought Saruman was planning to betray Sauron, so I disagree with you. She cited Saruman's having Lurtz swear fealty to him instead of Sauron ("Whom do you serve?" "SARUMAN!!!")to explain her reasoning.
@@sdpc9182 There is an undertone of that. My memory of the movies is not that clear I guess. But in the books it is unmistakably explicit that Saruman is planning to undermine Sauron and rule over him with the One Ring.
Don't forget there's a line in the Fellowship of the Ring when Sauruman betrays Gandalf and says "There is only one Lord of the Ring. And he does not share power." Seemingly implying gabdalf thinks saruman will either try to share power or betray sauron
@@willkelly9726 A lot of context of Saruman’s motives are informed conjecture by Gandalf. But Saruman himself says about Sauron. “As the power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it.” (The Council of Elrond)
My wife has a perspective on this that I agree with. In the theatrical version there’s so much screen time given to battles that it gets tedious, particularly for people less interested in battles. The extended edition is all additional character moments and they help to break things up and give more meaning to the battle sequences. Ironically, the extended edition for LotR nerds does a much better job of explaining who the characters are and what they are doing, which makes that version better for casuals like my wife. She also likes the additional romance, funny hobbits, and walking trees.
This is what Zack Snyder fans think his extended cuts offer; unfortunately for them the extended cut of a turd is just a longer turd. It can be more impressive, like “wow. I thought the normal turd was big, but this is so much more turd.”
37:29 Looks like meme’s back on the menu, boys!! Faramir’s introduction in the Extended Cut was my favorite addition. It was an excellent repurposing of dialogue from the books to show this new character was not a mere soldier following orders, but someone with a deeper understanding of the costs and futility of war. It may have been tonally out of place overall in the trilogy because, (as is mentioned) it’s a perspective that’s never brought up before this point or afterwards. LOTR is a story largely about the forces of good vs evil, with musings on simpler aspects of life. That particular pondering on war and what it is to be an enemy was very much the author’s own words based on his real life war experiences. Where it does fit into this story is a commentary on why humans should find themselves at odds. While Tolkien makes it clear that creatures like orcs are servants of evil, the humans that swear allegiance to Sauron and Saruman had free will not to serve. Those lines serve as a lament that human lives need not be lost to each other’s hands in such a conflict. On the note of whether Sauron is truly evil, Gandalf does have a line (I can’t recall explicitly when it appears, but I think it was during his first conversation with Frodo about Gollum), and he says, “Even Sauron was not always so”. It was making a point that originally as a Maiar, Sauron had been primarily concerned with Order, not power to dominate. By the time he’d become Morgoth’s lieutenant, his original goals had been twisted by malice and he’d become the force of darkness that persisted until the end of the Third Age.
I'm not sure how you can conclude that none of the characterization given to Saruman and Wormtongue in "The Ring of Barahir" plays into their future actions. The open contempt Saruman displays towards his underlings, specifically Wormtongue, after a setback (losing control of Theoden in this case) is the direct cause of his death at Wormtongue's hands in the extended edition of RotK. In addition, Saruman learning about Aragorn does have some small effect beyond exposition: 1. It contrasts him with Sauron, who fears the Heir of Numenor, while he, Saruman, dismisses him. A minor thing 2. His dismissal of the knowledge is a reminder for the audience that the acceptance of Aragron's claim to the throne is not an automatic certainty. It's established with Boromir's dismissal at the Council of Elrond in FotR, but isn't mentioned again until 2 movies later with Denethor in Rotk. Having a small reminder in the TT to bridege the gap helps keep the momentum of Aragorn's arc going in the middle movie, similar to Frodo reminiscing about the Shire in "Elven Rope." 3. He uses the knowledge gained here to mock and belittle Gandalf at the beginning of RoTK, which helps establish his arc for that film. I agree that none of this is strictly necessary to understand the events, plotlines, and character arcs that play out later, but I don't see how it can be concluded that the scene makes the movie worse, justifying its inclusion in D-Tier. Also, Christopher Lee is in the scene, and his presence objectively cannot make a movie worse
There's one thing the Elven Rope scene does you forgot to mention. It pays off the scene where Sam is disappointed to receive the rope from Galadriel. Which feels like an important scene to pay off.
The elvish weapon thing was definitely just a guess on the part of the uruk-hai. It makes sense that something saruman wants for the war would be a weapon, and such powerful weapons- going off the history of middle-earth- that such a powerful weapon would be elvish (as they usually are).
I remember one of the differences between ents in the theatrical and extended cuts was that Treebeard's long droning monologues from the extended cut really solidified himself, and by extension, other ents as being less like slow and old forest creatures and more like very tall kindly grandpas who keep talking about wearing onions on their belts (which was the style at the time). Because of this change, the decision to wage war on Isengard then becomes even more difficult and extreme, and the attack becomes recontextualised as these ancient, withdrawn and mostly peaceful fellows almost going against their nature; whereas in the theatrical cut they can seem more inclined toward physical confrontation. While I'm not sure whether this change justifies the added runtime, I do think it has merit in further characterising Treebeard and his felow ents, and further informs their decision to finally pick a side in the war.
Hindsight really shows in this case, IMO. The material/dialogue/scenes are there but they just didn't find/figure out how to cut and rearrange the scenes in a bit better way to show this in the extended edition without dragging it down too much. Maybe condensing it more to a couple of larger Entmoot scenes with Quickbeam (was it the name of the young ent from the books?) explaining things to M&P with an entish version of hobbitry on side, away from Treebeards' Board of Directors would've worked better?
I fully agree with you and it's the same vibe I got. I think if they had rearranged the scenes to have all the ent scenes closer together and not breaking up important moments of the build up to the battle it could have worked better. It might have also made the arrival of the huorns so suddenly not feel as bizarre and "how did no one see them coming" as it would have had a more proper build up to Treebeard and the others deciding to take action. Followed by a 'snap' into action that would feel sudden and catch the audience by surprise I feel would have made it far more effective and less confusing, like have the hurons just run up seemingly out of nowhere instead of the orcs running into them pretending to stand still.
Just stopping by to leave the obligatory comment about the Boromir and Faramir scene at Osgiliath. It's just excellent; it emphasizes the connection between the brothers while also fleshing out both of their internal conflicts. We walk away with a greater appreciation for Boromir post-mortem and an already deep understanding of Faramir, who at this point in the series is only a new character. EASILY one of the best scenes in all of the extended editions and it still blows my mind why it wasn't in the theatrical version
Most cuts are nothing to do with scene quality, they are done to keep the length and more importantly the pacing of the movie how it needs to be to work, specifically in a cinema setting.
Introducing Denethor this early doesn't make sense from a structural perspective, especially since it's at a point where the audience might still not fully understand his role in the political landscape. A lot of things in the flashback only truly add value to people who are already familiar with the story and would go right over a first time viewer's head. So I actually think it's more fitting in the Extended Edition where it can serve to give more depth to characters that fans of the movies are already familiar with, without overwhelming casual viewers.
@@ThunderrrStormm This is my favourite added scene in the entire extended edition trilogy. It gives us so much important context into characters' motivations, how they view the Ring/War, and their relationships to each other, while forshadowing what Gandalf and Pippin will have to deal with when they meet Denethor later.
For the Uruk-hai scene, I think it makes sense to consider that Saruman had to have Orcs at some point BEFORE having Uruk-hai, obviously, because who is going to dig those fuckers up? Certainly not Saruman in his good whites. The orcs the Uruk-hai meet DID come from Mordor… probably just a few weeks ago and they’ve been chopping down Fangorn and digging up sprouting Uruk-hai until Saruman gave em a specific task
Exactly, he doesn't say it because he values that salt more than Frodo's life, but because he on instinct doesn't want to lose a piece of hope. But also as a scene in a movie it does add a little subversive levity before the true danger begins. Kinda crazy for him to go on about that scene for like a whole 6 minutes lol
Lore bomb.! The ring of Barahir is more important than Christopher Lee explains. Barahir was the head of a tribe of men, who came to rescue Galadriel's brother Finrod, when they were surrounded in battle. Finrod gave Barahir this ring as an oath to come to his aid in return. Barahir was later killed by Sauron's forces, but his son Beren survived and took the ring as his family heirloom. He later shows it to Fingon as a request for aid, as he has been charged with attaining a Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth (Satan). Fingon honours his oath and travels north with Beren, but they are all captured by Sauron and their company slowly murdered by wolves in a dungeon. Fingon finally goes Superseyen and breaks his chains to defend Beren, killing the giant wolf with his bare hands. - but is mortally wounded in the process. His oath of friendship to the line of Barahir cemented. Later, in the third age, when the king of Arnor is fleeing the Witchking in the northern wastes, he gives his ring to the wildmen who protect him, saying they can ransom for stores from his people. The king's ship is destroyed and sinks in the northern seas, but the tribe do random it back, and so it continues to be held forever, by the kings/chief of the northern heirs of Isildur. It is the most important heirloom of the kings of men, tracing thousands of years to the friendship of men and elves. It is good that they reference it in the film.
I would actually rather they didn't reference this in the movies, as Aragorn shouldn't be wearing it. In the books, he gave this to Arwen as a token of their engagement. They probably had Aragorn wear the ring because they changed the nature of the relationship between him and Arwen, but by doing so, they weakened their dedication to each other. Think about this: what if in the scene in RotK where Arwen sees her future, she looks at her hand and sees the Ring of Barahir, and decides to go back to Aragorn? Also, they kept Arwen giving Aragorn a jewel of some kind (why they changed which jewel she gave I'll never know, but anyway), but they cut Aragorn giving Arwen something in return. As a result, this looks rather one sided if you know the lore behind the marriage customs of Elves
Even before watching, I can tell Aragorn finding out Eowyn's cooking is abysmal is S tier and should not have been cut. On top of providing us with invaluable insight into her character and backstory, it foreshadows how exactly Aragorn and Arwen's relationship will end. Though it might sound like Aragorn didn't want to grow old and feeble, in truth he would've stayed a lot longer if only Arwen's cooking was not dog shit as well. In the end, the Gift of Man was the preferable choice.
I was with you. Right up until you started talking about Arwen. Everything before that I was pure gold. Everything after that didn't make sense. I thought you were going to say it helps characterise Aragorn because it shows him to be gentle and kind even in his distaste. I genuinely do believe that you did see some connection. You just haven't explained the context or the connection on why it helps foretell the relationship. I genuinely want to hear what you have to say because I am intrigued I just don't see the connection you tried to make
In defense of Treebeard's scenes... Taking longer with them, does kind of emphasize their nature. They are slow, they take their time with everything they do. I admit I'm grasping at straws, but Treebeard is in fact, the best. (their and them being the Ents)
No no you make a good point. The fact we know how slow they are makes their later swiftness in the midst of battle both at Helm's Deep with the huron (i can't spell sorry) and the ents at Isengard a really effective bit of whiplash for the audience and some fun "don't judge a book by its cover" or "don't underestimate nature" type of vibe.
I like the choice to keep both sets of scenes on the same tierlist. It doesn't look nearly as one-sided as it did for Fellowship. Can't wait to see what patterns emerge in Return of the King!
I know how much time and effort goes into making videos like this, even when working with editors. Just want to say thanks for continuing to put out high quality analysis videos as regularly as you do. A lot of us appreciate the more thought provoking content.
One underrated thing about the Flotsam and Jetsam scene is that when they find the pipe weed, you realize that Sauruman is a hypocrite. In the Fellowship of the Ring, when he is walking with Gandalf in the gardens around Orthanc, Sauruman tells Gandalf "your love of the halfling's leaf has clearly slowed your mind". It's both subtext for Gandalf having a soft spot for Hobbits that may cause him to miss such a vital detail as the One Ring being hidden in plain sight all these years, while also being a condescending comment from Sauruman about his disapproval of smoking weed. And yet here we are at the end of the film and we discover that Sauruman is also a big enjoyet of "the halfling's leaf". Awesome little detail. Edit: I realize that you added in the commentary from Peter Jackson talking about exactly this shortly after I wrote out this comment. My bad lol.
Does it make him a hypocrite though? For that to be true we'd have to have him making an anti-weed statement *after* it being established he has his own supply. It's more likely he tried it finally to see what the fuss was about and ended up liking it. So the real issue would be that Saruman isn't as removed from the simple comforts of the world as he would like to present to himself. And even after he started taking up smoking he still might view himself as above it all, which seems like a great bit of character building for him. Maybe I'm wrong but just simply calling him a hypocrite feels like an oversimplification.
I know I'm a bit late, but I own horses and know fun horse facts, not only will horses eat meat if hungry enough, but often in war times when horses were used, they would be fed meat in order to stay nourished for battle. Some farm horses will gain a taste for meat and eat small animals like baby chickens. not common but can happen.
I will never forgive the french translator for changing Brego's name to Arod (both in the subtitles and the audio) becaude I spent my entire childhood thinking that the horse rescuing Aragorn after his fall was the same as the one Eomer gives him. Which made things even more confusing when I watched the extended edition for the first time and there were two Arod, the one Eomer gives him AND the one he calms in the stable. I love the added characterisation of Aragorn keeping the horse that saved him until the very end and I completely missed this detail until I was old enough to watch the movies in english with english subtitles...
The joke with Gimli and the ork's nervous system didn't bug me as much as the idea that Gimli, a seasoned axe fighter, would be willing to leave his axe (that he presumably likes and cares about keeping sharp) sitting embedded in a skull full of acidic ork blood and brains because he just didn't feel like putting it away.
Did he leave it? He's sitting on the Orc with the axe stuck on its head while taking a smoke break after a long battle, which implies that he doesn't plan to.
@@brianensign7638 Pretty much, even if he wasn't totally aware that caustic fluids might be there to potentially destroy his weapon, just the fact that he treated it like he didn't care about it at all when it's obviously something that keeps him safe so many times in his life just hit me like , huh!? But to be honest, this is problably the least of the issues with gimli's characterization in the films vs. the books. The movies just never treated him like a serious (if mundane type) fighter the way they do Boromir or Aragorn.
@@SagaciousNihilist Yeah the original joke was that the axe blade stuck in the brain was making the ork twitch so Legolas shot him with an arrow, making Gimli yell about the Ork's nervous system. Gimli just didn't bother pulling the axe out and wiping it, or doing anything at all with it. Which seemed weirder than the joke itself.
@@mattmeteor5011 I don’t know that they NEVER treat Gimli seriously. He’s serious as a heart attack at Balin’s tomb. And despite the ‘toss me’ gag, he gives a good account of himself at Helm’s Deep. I think Gimli gets the butt end of a lot of jokes because of his pride, not because he’s a dwarf. He’s definitely easier to take seriously than any of the dwarves in the Hobbit trilogy.
The Hourns arriving when they do actually makes perfect sense. The Uruks seemed to have taken roughly a day to march to Helms Deep(which on the maps shown in the film isnt that far from Isengard) & the Hourns left at the very least early afternoon of that same day. The battle takes all through the night. Assuming the trees move at the same speed as the Uruks on the march(which, is being conservative, as how fast semi-sentient trees the size of buildings move isnt something you can estimate from real world parallels as IRL trees dont walk, as a rule, at all) means they would arrive at some point in the night, after the Uruks had begun the siege, with their whole host pressed agaisnt the wall. Eomer & the Rohirrim arrive in the morning from a different direction than the Uruks did, right at dawn. The Uruks fleeing blindly into the suddenly appearing forest is entirely understandable, as they are routed, being pursued, & in a panic. Which is more pressing, stopping to wonder where these trees came from, or fleeing from the pissed off horsemen currently trying to hack you to death? Trees arent scary! We've been cutting them down for months now!
Although I don’t necessarily disagree with any of the points you made about it I still very much enjoy the Ent Draft scene. Mainly for payoffs in Return of the King. Merry and Pippin are on a very different journey than Frodo and Sam and letting them joke around really shows that. And I like them growing because it makes them fighting more believable down the line because they’re no longer cleaning up scraps or being taken alive. I also love stacking the dangerous scenarios pippin finds himself in throughout the trilogy only to get through all of it without a scratch. He recognizes that he must face the consequences of his actions and other people die/get hurt but not him. Moria, Isengard, fighting at Minas Trith, climbing massive cliff faces to light beacons. You know when he got back to the Shire he was strutting around there like the next Bullroarer Took ripping his pipe and telling people “you gotta be good to get lucky”
For what it's worth, RFT. I don't know if these videos get as many views as your "...is not very good" videos, but this series is both incredibly enjoyable and beautifully thought out. I think it also gives even greater credence to your ability to critique both good and bad writing and explain why each is which. I am very glad you'll be doing the third film. I'm very much looking forward to "Gibbets and Crows", personally. I'm sure you'll make Christopher Lee proud.
I disagree with your take on the Entdraft scene. Well, I mostly agree actually except for one detail that I think you missed. One of the big removals from the Fellowship of the Ring movie was the entire sequence with Tom Bombadil, that is in the book but not in the film. The entire scene with the Hobbits being swallowed by the tree and then Treebeard coming back and and rebuking it is almost line for line taken from a similar scene that is in the Tom Bombadil sequence in the books (where it's Tom who does the rebuking). So another reason for including the scene in the extended edition, where they weren't so tight for time, was that it was a nice little nod to the Tom Bombadil section from the first book that had to be left out. Given the immense respect that the film-makers had for the books, it was nice that they were able to find a way to acknowledge the Tom Bombadil part from the books, in a way that did fit into the story of the second movie even if it contributed nothing valuable to it. Therefore, even though the scene is bad for all the reasons you mentioned, I think including it was a good thing.
25:00 Well in the theatrical edition there is no introduction to the Orcs. They’re just suddenly there with the Uruk-hai and even as a child watching for the first time I noticed the distinct differences between the two and was questioning where the orcs came from.
2:40:40 Two things, mainly because Engagement for The Algorithm (and because this is the first bit I've actually felt like I had anything to add). 1: The Orcs not noticing the Suddenly Forest is, in fact, perfectly understandable. At this point Sarumon's army has been completely routed and is effectively less 'retreating' and more 'running in a blind panic away from the people trying to kill them'. A sudden calvary charge directly into the rear of an army has historically been exactly the kind of thing that led to armies losing discipline and scrambling for safety, and that's _before_ you add the wizard magic to it. I mainly bring this up because, considering how often Hollywood gets this kind of thing wrong, I feel compelled to defend films that get these kinds of things right. 2: This a thing from the books - it's an exceptionally faithful recreation of how Tolkien described the battle ending. Note that I offer this as an explanation, not an excuse. In practice it feels like a bit of an anticlimax, even before you think about the trees tearing ass across Middle Earth just for the sake of what plays out like one giant troll. EDIT: 2:46:14 As both an autist and someone who loved this line in spite of the anachronism, I can only bow to you in respect, good sir.
One way I think the Ent Draft scene could have worked better would be to have the water have an intoxicating effect. This way Merry and Pippin's character regression would be mitigated since it would be clear that they weren't in their right minds at the time. Also, Merry's remark on Pippin's height wouldn't be out of jealousy but as a result of him having, for a lack of a better term, an acid trip. One thing I do like about this scene is that we finally see for ourselves that the tress are in fact dangerous instead of just being told that they are.
After the nightmare that was the boogie EFAPs you bless us with this fantastic palate cleanser. Thank you, may all your food orders be accurate and your socks be free of holes.
Greetings Rando, a great video once again. You're always very entertaining to watch. Thanks and keep up the fine work. One thing I'd like add as it's kinda interesting, is that Uglúk (The Menu Orc) is actually "fixed" in the German and possibly other dubs of the movie. It doesn't take away from the criticism of the original, of course, but it's still nice to see that some effort was put into some parts of the translation which is usually lacking. For the record Uglúk says: "Ab sofort steht wieder Fleisch auf dem Speiseplan!" in the German version, meaning pretty much the same on paper but with the difference that the word "Speiseplan" can be both interpreted as a Menu but its main connotation is a meal plan or alternatively a ration plan, which fixes the odd mental image of the orcs visiting a restaurant but opens up further amusing questions about how much thought Saruman might put into the diet of his Uruks. Also, trust me when I say that even people living in the countries with the harsher censorship for these movies really know why these censorship rules are in place to begin with. It's simply mind boggling how movies are rated here. xd
I have a different view on the stew-scene. I find the "Stew"-Part horrible and cringe worthy and the added information of Aragorn's backstory uninteresting. I'm glad that they cut it in the Theatrical Cut. In fact: Its one of my least favorite added scenes and I skip it everytime I watch the Extended Cut. If you only watch the movies you might think that the main point behind Eowyn's story is "woman destroys the patriarchy". But I think Tolkien's real intentions were different. Eowyn was a counterpart to Faramir. Faramir hated war, but also knew that it was sometimes necessary because evil forces from outside would threaten your country. Eowyn on the other hand thought that she could only achieve glory if she did great deeds in battle. She thought war was something glorious. But after her confrontation with the Witch King she realized that war was horrible and that she never wanted to be in a battle ever again. She fell in love with Faramir for this exact reason. Both had the same values and after the war was over settled down in Ithilien, were they build beautiful gardens because both loved seeing things grow rather than destroyed by war.
Gimli's 'nervous system' line is comparable in contrast with Wormtongue's comments on the explosive charge made by Saruman. He doesn't express his doubts as, "wow, you've made a bomb, how does that work?" He speaks with the terminology he is familiar with to ask how a futuristic piece of tech he is unfamiliar with works: "how can fire undo stone?"
40:41 I believe none of the Orcs and Uruk-Hai knew it was the One Ring. Everyone is susceptible to it, therefore Saruman knows that if the Orcs/Uruk-Hai get ahold of the One Ring, they would likely get corrupted and run off with it.
I think the elven rope scene would've worked better if Sam had shouted about the spice-box falling and Frodo just grabbing it without being told to do so by Sam. That would further show the risks Frodo is willing to take, potentially endangering himself while caring for Sam more than his own life, further enforcing his need for Sam's protection.
while i agree with you during the Uruk-Hai extended scene the Uruk actully gave merry medicine called Draught which, while tasting horrible, that being the reason he spits it up, is stated to give anyone who drinks it massive amounts of energy and can heal wounds surprisingly fast.
*Night Camp at Fangorn - minor inaccuracy. The One Ring can technically be called an "elwish weapon" because Sauron appeared as an elf several times in the books, and He taught Eregion and Celebrimbor how to craft the remaining rings. This works as an easter egg for those who have read the books and as a possible legend among the orcs) *The Ring of Barahir - trying to defend I think this scene kicks off the confrontation between Sauron and Aragorn specifically. If I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that the Powers of Darkness learn of Aragorn as the heir to the throne. It is easy to assume that Saruman could pass this information to Sauron
It's never said that Sauron appeared as an elf. It's not specified what his fake backstory was as Annatar apart from him being from Valinor wanting to make Middle-earth better, but it makes much more sense that he would pose as a Maia. Pretending to be an elf runs the risk of having his true nature discovered, requires a backstory that explains why he's an amazing smith even though noone has heard of him or his family before, and commands less respect.
the fix for the first scene is even simpler: just have the box be filled with galadriel’s dust from lothlorien. it would remind the audience how valuable the gifts of the lady of the wood are, and you could put in a scene later about how sam was thinking of the elven magic for a split second instead of his master, rather than being like ‘oh here’s the chicken seasoning from earlier!’
@@sidnew2739 In the books, he received a box filled with soil from Galadriel's garden and a single mallorn seed. The seed is planted at the end of the book after the Party Tree was cut down by Saruman's brigands. None of this is in the movie.
I also like the last scene with Faramir because it explains how he knew where Sam and Frodo were going. I the Return of the King, he tells Gandalf where they're heading, but we don't know how Faramir knew that. Sure he could infer it (knowing their plans and knowing the area), but I think it's better that we show that he knew for certain
Something you can't forget during the Elven Rope scene is that Sam's reaction to dropping the "little piece of home" was panic. He wasn't thinking, in that instant, that Frodo's life was in danger (despite having just determined they couldn't see the bottom). He slipped, and his mind focused entirely on what he'd dropped--as would anyone's. My opinion is that maybe you're being just a touch overcritical of Sam's reaction (NOT decision, reaction).
Wouldn’t remove Treebeard’s poems. They are lovely and bring me a sense of peace. I think they show what’s at stake for the creatures of middle earth and nature in general. If Sauron wins not only does it spell doom for men, elves, dwarves, and hobbits, but it also spells doom for the forests and the beasts of the field and birds of the air.
Does the ent draft scene not feel reassuring? I think the implication with seeing Merry and Pippin goofing off doesn’t really undercut their character growth, but rather reassures us that despite they traumatic events they have been through this far (including being separated from their entire party in a foreign land) they will continue to find joy in each other’s company and will not let their spirits be broken despite their misfortune. I agree that it doesn’t advance the plot at all, but I still think it’s got something of value to add to their characters.
As much as I enjoy Gimli and Legolas' banter, I do agree with the weirdness of the nerve joke, and the lowness of their counts, although given that I enjoy seeing them interact, I generally forgive it. I also agree that the Ent stuff is kinda eh generally. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Return of the King. Honestly, I think this series is some of your best work, if only because it's nice to hear about something more positive than the rest of the movies that you generally cover, because as much as I enjoy those videos... it's hard to beat hearing someone be positive about something you yourself enjoy. Keep up the great work!
The things I'm most looking forward to in Return of the King are probably the extended scenes involving the Witch King. As much as he's a side character in the movies, he's probably my favorite villain in terms of build up, design, and just how menacing he is. He is Sauron's right hand, and basically an extension of his will on the battlefield, as well as a face for the Nine who were already awesome in their own right. In addition, I'm also excited for the Mouth of Sauron, I'm not certain how high that scene will end up on your list, but I do enjoy getting to see a villain be such an unapologetic jerk to the heroes. He absolutely feels like the kind of dude Sauron would send to meet the army of the West, a "diplomat" that serves only as an insult, something to try and sow doubt and fear into their hearts.
My favourite scene of the entire trilogy is the scene with Boromir and Faramir celebrating after recapturing Osgiliath. It shows a side of Boromir that I feel was missing in Fellowship, loving, proud and always trying to do what it right to help men. Him knowing that his father is a jerk and calling him out on it is great.
Dude, your videos are just fantastic. I’ve only recently discovered you thanks to your previous video in this series, and quickly got caught up with the rest of your catalogue. Your analysis is like scratching an itch that couldn’t be reached before; it’s so satisfying to hear you traverse logic and reason to meet your ultimate point. Keep up the good work, Random.
I think you take too seriously the "elven weapon" line. They just mean/have been told (since they are not to be trusted) that the hobbits have some mcguffin, something magical and very important to Saruman. I dont think Jackson was thinking about orcs hate for everything elven Edit: then again, its true that in this film we see Gollum hating everything elven...
I personally like the Elven rope scene. I disagree that Sam valuing Frodo's life as much as he does would be sufficient to overcome the instinct that caused him to tell Frodo to catch it. Our instincts are often maladaptive if we are placed into a different environment than the one we honed them in and this scene is a testament to that. We get to see a way in which Sam is potentially a liability for Frodo. However, as the movie/Frodo tells us later: "Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam", which is why despite this potential peril, the culmination of the scene is soft and warm. However, the tension the scene represents doesn't stop there. In ROTK, Sam says he has rationed food so there's enough for "the way home". By this point in The Two Towers, Sam hasn't begun to grapple with what Frodo already feels to be the case: that there is no going back to how things were, not really. That's more true for Frodo than it is for Sam, and this tension is further explored in Sam and Frodo's interactions with Gollum/Smeagol. For Sam, the salt represents the home that he believes he will be returning to. He is surviving in part by focussing on an imaginary idea of "afterwards". Frodo's reaction to the salt felt wistful, and I think even already, he knows "home" doesn't exist for him anymore. Sam shouting to save the salt was definitely a mistake because it could've led to Frodo's death, but i understood this as coming from the same place as much of Sam's steadfast hope and support. Perhaps naive, but also crucial and necessary to both him and Frodo.
The cliff scene critique seems slightly harsh to me. Sam did not shout "Grab it even if it costs you your life" he asked Frodo to catch it. Which would be a natural reaction if something precious fell down. A small wooden box latched shut with a flimsy catch could shatter or open and spill it's contents from any height. Seasoning spilling out means it's useless. Sam himself reaches out for the box, demonstrating that he himself values the box enough to risk his own life. This reflects upon his character valuing the comfort of home beyond anything else. To Sam's Hobbit mind a box of seasoning is WORTH letting go of a rope and reaching out for the box because it might in the future allow him and his master some comfort from the taste of a juicy roast chicken.... or rabbit stew. Sam neither foresaw Frodo falling nor put Frodo in greater risk than he himself was in, hanging one handed from the rope reaching down. All critique falls on the writers for desiring a fake tension scene by having Frodo fall, to fake out the audience.
When the Uruk-hai says Mery and Pippin carry Elvish weapons, he could be referring to the swords they were given by Galadriel, it wouldn't take an eagle to see that they're carrying them and that they are, in fact, of Elven make, that's easier to believe than him making it up in its entirety.
I guess this is theoretically possible, but highly, highly unlikely. The main Uruk would recognize those weapons as daggers, and if he was trying to communicate that information, he would just say daggers. It's very obvious what they are. The second reason is more meta: the daggers never come up again in any of the movies after they are given by Galadriel. The absolute closest you get to them being relevant is Merry stabbing the Witch-King. However, what he is using to stab him isn't very clear (if anything it supports it being the small sword he got from Rohan, as the handle appears to be brown) and nobody afterwards comments on his Elven dagger being used like that. So I highly doubt the Uruk was referring to their Elven daggers
Great video as always Rando! About the ring of Barahir, It's first owner was Finrod Felagund, whom of course we know from the infamous Rings of power show, he brought it from Valinor to Beleriand, and after the man Barahir saved his life in a fight against orcs, Finrod gifted his ring to Barahir as a sign of friendship and as a promise that if anyone from Barahir's family ever needed his help, he would help them no matter the cost. Finrod ultimately keeps his promise to the last consequences by losing his life to save Barahir's son, Beren. which is an ancestor of Aragorn. It has a tremendous weight in the full story.
For some of the better/necessary extended scenes oddly being left out, it's possible that they weren't filmed initially and were only shot during pick-ups after the theatrical version was already released. For example, they didn't start filming Return of the King pick-ups until after winning all the Oscars
I think (displaying the) the function of the Elven Rope is excellent and it introduces us to further Elven gifts that play a role later in the movie(s). What I absolutely can't appreciate is that Frodo did not break his legs like any normal person would. It is physically impossible not to break your legs when you don't know how far it is you fall.
But the bottom is obscured because of thick evil fog. Not because the fall is big. If you close your eyes and jump, will you break both legs because you cant see how far is the fall?
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox Ask someone walking down the stairs and thinking they're on the last step already.... but then there's one more step. Ouch! It's painful to even think it, let alone doing it.
Eomer's character really got shafted in the films (both cuts). He was so much more in the books. He's one of those that I appreciate any extended cuts with him in it, because it's at least a little bit more of him.
I'm currently rereading the books and I second this. His character was so important in both the Two Towers and Return of the King. He was reduced from an important main character to a side character.
@@katerrinah5442 100%. In the book he was present for all of the battle of Helms Deep, he had a running dialogue with Gimli over Galadriel, and he was more strongly trying to fight alongside Aragorn throughout.
Sons of the Stuward, together with the extended scenes from fellowship, really are crucial for Boromir's character. I grew up watching the theatrical version and always only saw Boromir as this arrogant unrightly praised piece of sh*t that betrayed the fellowship and only did 1 good deed while dying. The theatrical cut really does a massive disservice to Boromir!
Just because I’m a massive fan of the Final Tally scene, I had to do some maths. 10,000 orcs vs. 300 men in Rohan. If everyone on the good side were to survive the night, the average kill count would be 33.333 per person. This is without taking into consideration the kills by the Forrest, the Elves of Lothlorien, and the arrival of Gandalf and the Rohirrim. Adding these guys into the mix drastically reduces the average kill count even further while also making up for the likelihood that the original 300 did not all survive. That being said, if we decide to work with the original average kill count of 33.333 per person - this still puts Legolas and Gimli a full 33% better than the rest of the warriors. As for the large head start Legolas has over Gimli in the beginning… Legolas fights with his bow, therefore can reach the enemies far earlier than Gimli can in the initial charge. Gimli can’t get his first kill until an orc makes it up the wall, whereas Legolas had lots of time before that. Legolas’s arrows also have to run out eventually. Yes, he has his daggers, but his preferred weapon is his bow. Gimli’s axe is his preferred weapon and doesn’t run out of swings unless it actually breaks. I think this is how Gimli catches up… or Legolas lied when he said 17 just to flummox Gimli 😂 there’s my justification so hopefully it can go back into your perfect cut of the film 😊😊😊
![The History of Morgoth [COMPILATION] | Tolkien Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ktet64d9O-c/mqdefault.jpg)
EDIT: Warner Bros have released the claim. This video will be staying live.
Hi guys, you may have noticed this video got hit with copyright a couple of hours ago. I can’t tell you why RUclips has waited before detecting anything, as the video has been cleared since Saturday.
I have submitted an appeal. If the appeal is accepted, the video will remain live. If the appeal is rejected, I will receive a second copyright strike.
There is nothing I could have done to avoid this. Usually YT will tell you immediately if copyrighted content is detected, but that didn’t happen with this video. I can’t tell you why.
Either way, at this point this has been my best performing video, so thank you guys for watching it.
I was really confused when I tried to return to the video and it wasn’t on your feed, but in my history. Initially when I tried to return to video it had said it had been claimed by Warner bros. That confused me because the previous one was fine. Then the second attempt just said it was unavailable. I’m glad it’s back and hope that it was just a mistake. Best of luck!
anoiyng as fuck this youtube gestapo bots!
All right, I thought I was going crazy.
Gonna download it then.
Thanks always waiting for your next upload, excited for return of the king
I don’t get this, I highly doubt this video would act as a replacement for watching the movies, if anything it will get more people to want to check out the extended versions
I love the idea of Saruman insulting Gandalf for "smoking the hobbits pipeweed" and then revealing he has 2 barrels of the stuff in the next movie.
Saruman being a hypocrite? Who could have known 😅
It gets better. In the book it's implied that he imports so much luxury stuff from the Shire, including pipeweed, that it affects local economy in a significant way.
Hypocrisy in this case would be a weak assumption. Saruman is a prominent person who probably receives lots of important guests (or at least used to), and such a figure would likely maintain a stock of luxury items to have on hand for those guests even though he doesn't necessarily use them himself. Heck, most people do this; for example, maybe you keep some sweeteners and creamer cups for friends even though you personally drink your coffee black.
@@jroggs85 In the books and some extra material (and I think we can rely on books to explain some deeper lore for the movie), pipeweed smoking is something that is unheard of outside of Shire and some bordering territories. Gandalf had an interest in hobbits and visited them often, so he picked up the habit. He explained to fellow wizards that this "art" has a calming effect on the mind or something like that. Saruman initially mocked him, but later he tried it secretly out of curiosity and took a liking to it. But he was too prideful to admit to like something he mocked. As a result, he started to secretly buy large amounts of the best pipeweed from Shire.
And yes, he had a stash with the finest food and pipeweed just for himself.
@@altEFG the scouring of the Shire, I take it?
I think the fix for the Elven Rope scene is even easier: just don't have Sam tell Frodo to catch it. Keep everything else the same. He can notice it fall, reach for it, cry in dismay, and he's father enough up the rope from Frodo for Frodo to hear and see Sam's desperation and make a snap decision to try to catch the box and then lose his footing.
You retain all of the character work the scene wanted, and the heightened drama, but also add in a little bit extra for Frodo, who was willing to risk his life to save something Sam valued greatly without being asked.
Yup this is what I would do. Ill try to edit this comment if i have other easy edit fixes when i get further into the vid
It wouldn’t make very much sense for Frodo to risk his life over a random wooden box he doesn’t know the contexts of..
I think the best way to play this scene is to have the box slip out of Sam’s pocketses. Sam give a reaction like “oh no!” And Frodo being caught off guard with the box landing on his head and have that cause him to lose his footing.
Frodo falls in the mist and Sam immediately cries out for him. A small pause for tension, and so Frodo can pick himself up right before calling back out to Sam that he’s totally fine.
Sam comes down and apologises excessively to Frodo and Frodo asks what the box is for. After Sam explains Frodo smiles and says something along the lines off “I guess you got sick of eating the same food too” or “you always loved your spices”
I think with Hobits having giant feet that basically act as professional mountain shoes it’s unlikely for Frodo to lose his footing any other way.
@@nielslehnen6076 I don't think that's how it works. When mountain climbing you have to use your feet to hold onto tiny crevices. Hobbit feet would probably be a hindrance.
Have him shout "Nooo" instead, and Frodo can assume it's important, try to catch it and fall. Sam doesn't look bad and Frodo still looks heroic and you get to keep the joke.
That said, I don't think it makes Sam look as bad as it is made out. He just didn't fully consider the situation in the half second before he shouted.
@@dutchmansmine9053 Are you kidding? Hobbit feet are PERFECT for mountain climbing. One word: "Toes". Instead of trying to jam the entire point of their shoe into a tiny crevice, they can actually hold on with their toes. The fact that they don't wear shoes lets them actually feel out the rock and find the best purchase, and the fact that they can move their toes independently means that they can precisely control what part of their foot they apply pressure to.
It might sound ridiculous, but you can try it for yourself. Go to a staircase, take your shoes off, and step up with just your toes (if you have trouble, step up normally and slowly wiggle your feet back off the step). You might need to keep your balance with your hands; just make sure your weight is being supported by your feet. You should find that it's actually fairly easy to hold yourself up with just your toes.
Now, mark off where your toes were on the step, and put your shoes back on. Try to support yourself without letting the tip of your shoes go past this line. You'll probably find this to be impossible, regardless of what type of shoe you try it with.
These movies have been out 20 years, I've seen them probably a hundred times, and I still don't get tired of talk about them
Has it really been two decades? Jesus
Yup, 2001 was Fellowship. I feel old, as I was a teen when I first saw them in mid noughts (I think, 05, maybe 07?).
Same here
It's like a hoke cooked meal. It's like going home. It's comfort
20? But.. Ouch.
I watch the extended editions every year. One year for Two Towers, I dozed off at Treebeard's poetry and woke up after Treebeard picks up Merry and Pippin. It was perfect.
@@doppeldipper7111 peak media consumption 😂
That's why Peter Jackson is a genius! He knew that viewers might start to feel a little tired half-way through, so he designed a cosy little nap-time sequence in the middle of the trilogy for the audience to briefly nod off and not miss anything.
I understand your reasoning in your arguments. However, I love this trilogy, world and characters so much that I will take a 20 hour edit with "unnecessary" scenes al day.
God the commentary from the writers is sheer life-force to listen to. They're actually discussing characters' purposes, and what a specific scene is contributing to the tale. Night and day, to come from watching so many interviews for shows and movies of more recent years where the creators and actors are backwashing agreeable phrases about relatability and timeliness, but never digging in. Because the literal content isn't backing their nice ideas.
Definitely a lot better than "Dany sort of forgot about the iron fleet." It's a passionate discussion not explaining your shitty story for the audience to understand.
Showing the Orcs meeting up with the Uruk-hai settled a frustration for me. In the theatrical edition, they just seemed to appear like they were always there
@@leftymcnally6913 when I was a kid I didn’t even understand the difference between orcs and Uruk-hai because of this reason lol. Seeing them being different foot soldiers to different leaders really made it click for me as i was getting older and understanding Tolkien to a different level
Good thing they did too. Otherwise meat wouldn’t have been back on the menu.
"You stink of horse" is not a comic relief line. It shows Saruman's disdain for Rohan, as well as his lack of appreciation and superiority he feels over Wormtongue.
It's still something that makes me laugh
I think the LotR trilogy has a lot of lines that do not have purely comedic intent but are still funny.
i always took Saruman telling Wormtongue that he stinks of horse as another little way of demonstrating his distaste for Rohan in particular. Horses are all over Rohan's heraldry and are central to how they wage war. a small detail but i always heard it as "you're reminding me of those disgusting horse people."
I agree with this and hope RFT sees this. I believe D is very harsh here and has been my only issue thus far. C is better imo.
Yes this is correct
Actually I would push it a little further and say it also underlines the fact that Saruman lost his way as shown by his clear disgust of nature. Similarly, as with the desecration of Fangorn scene.
@olajza91 absolutely. Many small additions to the extended editions may not have key plot or character significance but absolutely do have key thematic importance. Theme is one of the most central concepts in the lord of the rings and is one of the main reasons middle earth feels so real. RFT sometimes misses the importance of theme in LOTR In some of these rankings
I agree with the purpose of showing how Saruman has lost his way, and the emphasis on his dislike of horses", but this doesn't change my view that the scene as a whole belongs in D.
Just pointing out the bloody obvious, but I want to make sure we're not taking this for granted......... I absolutely love that the first thing that Random addresses is some corrections to his previous video.
Thank you for drawing attention to this, because it is something worth explicitly praising; I'm new here, and that's the kind of thing that made me subscribe, so it's nice to see that being highlighted.
@@AnarchistArtificer You will enjoy his other videos as well, I'm sure. And in a few weeks the new season of ROP will bring lots of joy for all........
Thanks !
I love the way that Theoden's signature looks on Eomer's banishment paper; it's a good preview of his degrading mental state.
"You stink of horse" could be interpreted as a derivative way of saying "You've been in Rohan too long amongst those people". That wouldn't be out of character considering how Saruman feels about Rohan at this point.
Nah Wormtongue is a man of Rohan. He was a traitor to his own people. That's why you see him freaking the fuck out when he sees the Uruk-hai army. He didn't want his people dead, he just wanted to be on the winning side. He signed up for victory and leadership, not genocide.
He says you stink of horse because that was his mode of transport as he FLED. He smells like he was riding on a horse for a long time because he failed and had to come running to Saruman. Saruman is pissed that he lost Theoden, and Gandalf is alive. Wormtongue is at least partially responsible for that failure and now ran so fast that he reeks of failure and flight. It is mostly empty jabs at Wormtongue to show displeasure up until the Ring of Barahir is mentioned.
Ironically the scene where the hobbits light the fire on Weathertop was the opposite in the book. Aragorn explicitly tells them to make the fire and keep it going because the Nazgul don't like fire and can see perfectly well in the dark anyway.
Yes, much better in the book, where they Know they're surrounded and possibly going to be attacked. A fire at least gives them some light and potential defence.
But they wanted to have Aragorn jump in like a badass, which means Aragorn had to leave for some reason, - which he never would have done if he knew they were surrounded.
Small changes leading to big changes, but at least the movie logic flows - even if different.
It’s a change, for sure, but I think it makes sense to do it that way for the film. It reinforces that, even now, the hobbits are somewhat foolish and naive about their situation and the wider world, but that Frodo is more aware of the danger because of his connection to the ring.
It’s subtle, but I think it works pretty well.
Fair perspective, but I never thought of the hobbits as naïve.
Green, yes, but they knew full well they were being tracked by demonic forces of the immortal dark lord, who will kill them on capture.
That's easy enough for even simple hobbits to grasp.
But yes, the movie at least has internal logic.
@@JackChurchill101 They’re definitely less naive in the books, especially Merry.
''its not rocket science'' would also not be completely out of place since gandalf uses rockets at parties
Yes, but he doesn't really use science as such. More wizardry, or perhaps alchemy.
@@dutchmansmine9053 which would be considered science i am sure
“It’s not rocketry” maybe?
Why not "it's not wizardry"?
@@ianwinter514 Yeah, but the term "science" is a bit jarring given the setting.
I lost it a little when you said the Dunlendings were "culturally enriching the Westfold" that's some peak humor there
Same.
You may genuinely be one of my favorite RUclipsrs right now. Like, you don't just express your conclusion on things, you thoroughly explain why, thus equipping us with the knowledge to think for ourselves and come to our own educated conclusions. Also, absolutely love the presence of the wheelie boy. Good to see him hanging around.
I’ll do a big gamble here and say YES.
I still can’t believe they took out the Boromir Faramir scene, just like the Saruman death scene in The Return of the King. 11/10 scenes.
I'm fairly certain that Legolas scoring so quickly at the beginning of the battle was primarily just because he still had arrows; as soon as he ran out he was forced to engage in melee, which was a lot slower, whence him losing his early lead to Gimli over the subsequent hours.
it might be that Legolas and Gimli are undercounting to make room for each others tally (more respect/friendship building)
@@TheCaspTube That doesn't really seem in character for either of them; their mutual respect begins as admiration for eachothers' skill as warriors, so it would be rather disrespectful to underestimate eachtohers' abilities like that. (There's probably a better word for that, but I can't think of it right now)
If anything, it would make more sense to assume that their scores are so 'low' because they weren't fighting for the entire night; there would, necessarily, have been lulls in the combat while, for example, the orcs were breaking through the gates, during which everyone would have taken a breather.
@@brettbaker8497 this is the answer. Legolas ran out of arrows and his effectiveness was severely lessened. Plus he didn’t participate in any fighting other than on top of the wall before the gate is breached and they are forced to take cover in the hall. Gimli meanwhile kills dozens of orcs on the bridge, in the drainage pits, and in several other locations.
Gimili was racking kills when he stood atop the ladder just stacking bodies. I think tat adds to his higher count as well.
I'd actually push back on the Entdraft scene being as bad as it might appear.
For one, because of the way scenes were rearranged, Treebeard doesn't actually tell the hobbits of the dangers of the forest until after the scene, meaning the only reason they have to believe that the forest might be dangerous is that forests aren't very safe. Just by watching the first movie, where we're likely supposed to believe they are at least outdoorsy to an extent, I don't really think they'd find a random forest that menacing. In the same vein, you could argue that because Treebeard only clarifies the danger of the huorns after what happens, perhaps he plainly just didn't expect the huorns to be quite so aggressive, meaning the scene of him telling him about how dangerous can be could also be a tacit realization on his part that he should probably not let them out of sight again. Considering no huorns assaulted them throughout the night and for some time while they were awake, that doesn't seem so crazy. Pippin implies the only reason he wad drinking the draft is because Treebeard talked about, as he claims in the scene that Treebeard advised against drinking it in the way Merry was drinking it. This tells us there was a scene between Treebeard putting them to sleep and the Entdraft scene, where the hobbits met Treebeard and were left alone for even longer. There may have been a whole day of them getting on just fine until they started bothering the huorn, meaning the danger of the forest probably just wasn't that evident to either them or even Treebeard, despite him surely understanding the huorns are not anything to fool around with. Merry and Pippin were aware there was such a thing as talking, moving trees, but besides Treebeard, who turned out to be an unabashed good guy, they never encountered a tree that was outright threatening.
As for their general behavior during the scene, I just don't believe your read on it is quite fair. While, yes, the first movie was certainly traumatic, there was never any singular piece of development in the first movie that says they don't fool around anymore. In the Entdraft scene, they bicker over some water that makes you bigger. They have been on their own for some time in a place that, until the huorn attack, wasn't established to be more dangerous than a regular forest, by anyone in their vicinity. They were stuck there with no self-evident danger for god-knows-how-long, and they were probably bored out of their minds. Frankly, in their position, I'd probably be fooling around, too.
In regards to the scene of Frodo and Sam climbing down a cliff in Emyn Muil, I think the severity of Sam's words is also quite exaggerated. At no point in the trilogy is Sam portrayed as someone who's good at making rational split-second decisions. When he slipped and the little box of salt fell out, there is simply no way he considered even half the dangers of Frodo having to reach out to catch it. Hell, if anything, we have reason to believe he sometimes struggles to think of concepts that aren't explicitly described. Drawing from the scene where Frodo and Sam follow behind Gollum as he's hunting a fish in the creek, where Sam calls Gollum stinker, he continuously rails against Gollum and how he's a despicable villain because of the influence of the ring, at no point registering that when Frodo defends him, he's simultaneously clinging onto hope that he himself is not beyond saving despite being the Ring-Bearer. Given this, I really don't think Sam even began to consider that catching the little box might put Frodo in danger. I have no trouble at all giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that if he'd had enough time to consider that Frodo may have also slipped if he were to attempt to catch it, Sam wouldn't have said anything at all.
Lastly, I wanna repeat something said by someone else in the comments in regards to the scene where Saruman and Grima discuss the Ring of Barahir. When Saruman says Grima stinks of horse, I think this works as a set-up for the disdain he feels for the people of Rohan, which is made much more obvious in the Return of the King Extended Edition. Horses are the symbol of Rohan, featuring in much of their heraldry and being their main mode of conducting warfare. To insult Grima, a man of Rohan, for stinking of horse is not that much different from what he tells Théoden in the third movie. It shows that, at the end of the day, Saruman regards Grima with as much disdain as he does any other man of Rohan.
@@justiniani.4501 I think this is a pretty great response. One of the weird things I have noticed with many critics now is that they expect every character to act in the most rational way at all times with a total consideration of all possibilities. It’s somewhat bizarre to me. Yes there are many who write characters to act foolishly simply to move the plot but this hyper fixation on everyone being on their game at all times is a bit of an over correction in my estimation. All of us fall short regularly enough. Why can’t characters in story be the same.
This isn't an excuse for the elven rope scene, BUT there is a fakeout very similar to this in the book. Frodo slips over the edge of a cliff and Sam thinks he's died, only to find Frodo landed on a ledge a short way down. The scene is a problem in the movie because they tweaked the setup and made Sam endanger Frodo unnecessarily.
Additionally, in this scene of the book Sam is about to free-climb down the cliff, because he figures it is better that he slip and fall than that Frodo should. Frodo stops him, and they use the rope. It shows that Sam is dedicated to Frodo to the point of surrendering his life for him, at any time, for any reason. It's quite a good scene.
Oh wow, I had to think hard to remember this. The fake out drop happens near the very end, when they are in Mordor right?
To me the rope scene only became a bit "irksome" after I read the book and realised, they changed a box of wonderful elven dirt and a mellorn seed to table salt - but it isn't an egregious change in context of the movie where the Shire never needs to be replanted.
@@AndyCandyZeroSugar as I recall it is the first Frodo/Sam chapter of The Two Towers. So, at this same point in the plot.
There is another in Mordor, when they escape the tower and are caught on the road by oncoming reinforcements. They jump into the black, knowing that it's a dice roll between certain death and possible death. Luckily it's only about 10 meters and they fall into thorn bushes which softens the blow.
But the Two Towers one is good too. It all adds to the idea of then being completely alone and without a path/guide, going "forward" wherever they can.
I want ot argue a bit on the final tally number as we should keep in mind that 42 and 43 kills in a battle regardless of how large it is, is insane and speaks volume to their skills as warriors. To put it in perspective I believe the numbers we get are that the Rohiram number at 3,000 while the Uruk are 10,000. For victory to be achieved every single man would need to kill roughly 4 enemies before they were to die, yet Legolas and Gimil are able to get 10x that number.
Also gimli catching up to Legolas is not at all crazy considering he is a Melee specialist compared to Logolas who is more proficient in range combat, its why despite the initial lead Gimil is able to catch up and then take the lead.
Finally it should be pointed out that exhaustion could play a part, as the fight continued on both would be getting more and more tired and thus would find themselves unable to dispatch enemies as quickly or effectively as the battle continues especially since they would likely constantly be facing against fresh Uruks given the superior numbers they had and less we forget that Uruks seems to be some of if not the toughest sons of bitches you can come across.
I still think the scene deserves to be in B tier at the least.
In the film it's 300 (plus some number of elves, so 600?) vs. 10,000.
The book is slightly more realistic. The Helm's Deep garrison is 1000, and I think Theoden brings another 1000 with him, so the Rohirrim number 2000 in total; not an unreasonable number for defending against a siege, especially one handled as incompetently as Saruman's army does. Helm's Deep in the book has also been repaired and provisioned and is in much better state than it is in the film.
Also Gimli camps two ladders and just kills Urul after Uruk. And legolas wpuldve lost anyways since Aragorn and Gimli also killed all the uruks on the brodge too. Its reasonable for Gimli to be able to beat Legolas but I think their kills shouldve been tripled at the very least
I thought it was strange Random brought that up as a nitpick as the actual real number of the count had no relevance, only the competition mattered.
@@user-kn7qw4qr7t 600 vs 10 000 in a proper fortress isn't unrealistic really. The problem is orcs have very little self preservation instincts when they think they're winning and thus will commit to attacks no human army would. The use of gunpowder to blow up the outer wall was also necessary because of how much advantage a defender gets from a fortress.
“You stink of horse” isn’t a joke, surely - it’s an immediate mistreatment of Wormtongue (which ultimately has dire consequences for Saruman) as well as a demonstration of contempt for Rohan more generally. The culture that venerates horses is seen as primitive and not worthy of existence to Saruman whose fatal flaw is his arrogance and underestimating all of his opponents.
It’s a stark contrast that Wormtongue essentially spits in the outstretched hand of peace from his own people (Men) despite his betrayal and instead, choosing to align with Saruman, whose first words to him are abusive.
Thanks for making sure the still images of people that worked on the film dont shake like a seizure.
@@ScooterDoge c'mon, I thought that was hilarious 😂
I’m willing to gamble that TTT has a lot less critical and important scenes than Fellowship, but the lack of Faramir scenes in the this one was absolutely criminal.
Looking forward for 12 3-hour episodes of "The Lord of The Rings is very good"
The number of people a single individual kills in battle is actually quite low (unlike in video games). When you consider that in historical battles, an army tends to flee in a panic once they've taken something like 15% casualties, you realise that in fact, a large majority of the men on the field will have gone through the entire battle without killing anyone (most kills are made in the rout when the enemy is no longer putting up any effective resistance). So for Gimli and Legolas to have each killed around 40 enemies during the battle is already an extremely outsized achievement relative to what an ordinary soldier would be capable of in reality.
Anyway, great video, I was looking forward to this one.
I believe RFT’s point was we see enough kills onscreen to deduce that legolas’ kill count should be in the hundreds over the duration of the whole fight when including how many kills Legolas likely had offscreen.
@@oahtobar1355Exactly. OP is correct that, in reality, medieval battles were usually not down-to-the-last-man killing sprees.
But Middle Earth is not reality, orcs are not men who want to live and go home to their families, and Legolas is a centuries-old machine of death who doesn’t even need to sleep. Not quite the same thing as a medieval battlefield.
@@brianensign7638 Legolas may be a master warrior but he is way out of his (and elves in general) preferred way, as far as we can see in the movies, to fight here.
Legolas is an Archer armed with bow and double knives. Not magical knives, just REALLY fancy ones. Even his bow is just a very well-made one. Until now, he has fought only partially armored foes, against which he can excel even in close combat. Being pinned by heavily armored siege troops on the highly crowded wall makes his job extremely hard once he is out of arrows or in h2h with Uruks.
The fact that Legolas even survives the battle is a miracle as we can see better-suited (equipment and likely skill) Elves being cut down all over.
And we have to remember that Gimli does not (really) have it much easier either. In the books it makes sense why Gimli became one of the main defenders of the Glittering Caves after The Wall was breached. A Tank of a Dwarf with Eomer and other Rohirrim with spears could've hold the entrance by themselves in style of Thermopylae in the worst case scenario! Ofc this wasn't part of the film where Gimli gets a role as a conveniently placed, living throwing weapon whose main mode of transport between places is by being flung be several things.
Taking these in consideration, it is (i feel) possible to imagine both of them tallying up to maybe 50-60 (less for Legolas unless he can get enough timely refills of arrows, we mostly see him taking long/precision shots or shooting from behind the targets) but even with movie magic that amount feels a bit high to be "realistic".
@@Makapaa I think RFT's point was just that it's a bit strange for Legolas to kill 17 enemies in the first 5 minutes, and then to only kill a few dozen more over the next several hours.
I personally don't think it's an issue, but his argument is more about the passage of time than it is about the 'power levels' of the characters.
@@brianensign7638 Passage of time does not matter in this IF we take the realities of the battle into account. Movie Magic only holds up until certain point, after which it comes ridiculous. I find it more ridiculous that Legolas would conserve his arrows the way it is shown in the movie.
After all, he is most effective at range, not stuck in hand-to-hand with 3-5 elite warriors in full plate.
When the rft video is movie length, you know it's gonna be good
The biggest problem with the orc conflict in the movies is that movie Saruman is completely in lock step with Sauron. While book Saruman wants the Ring for himself and his Uruk-Hai are independent agents for his purposes. So the Uruk-Hai scenes are more book accurate in a way that doesn’t gel with the movies.
His intentions aren’t stated explicitly, but I think it’s implied that Movie Saruman was planning on betraying Sauron at some point, especially since Ugluk outright says “the master wants it for the war.”
He’s already made it explicitly clear that he takes his orders from Isengard not from Mordor, so there’s only one “master,” he could be talking about. He even explicitly said “Saruman will have his prize.”
I think he definitely wanted the Ring but also tried to maintained plausible deniability in case he didn’t get it, since it’s obvious he can’t challenge Sauron without it.
My not-having-read-the-book wife thought Saruman was planning to betray Sauron, so I disagree with you. She cited Saruman's having Lurtz swear fealty to him instead of Sauron ("Whom do you serve?" "SARUMAN!!!")to explain her reasoning.
@@sdpc9182 There is an undertone of that. My memory of the movies is not that clear I guess. But in the books it is unmistakably explicit that Saruman is planning to undermine Sauron and rule over him with the One Ring.
Don't forget there's a line in the Fellowship of the Ring when Sauruman betrays Gandalf and says "There is only one Lord of the Ring. And he does not share power." Seemingly implying gabdalf thinks saruman will either try to share power or betray sauron
@@willkelly9726 A lot of context of Saruman’s motives are informed conjecture by Gandalf. But Saruman himself says about Sauron. “As the power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it.” (The Council of Elrond)
My wife has a perspective on this that I agree with. In the theatrical version there’s so much screen time given to battles that it gets tedious, particularly for people less interested in battles. The extended edition is all additional character moments and they help to break things up and give more meaning to the battle sequences. Ironically, the extended edition for LotR nerds does a much better job of explaining who the characters are and what they are doing, which makes that version better for casuals like my wife. She also likes the additional romance, funny hobbits, and walking trees.
This is what Zack Snyder fans think his extended cuts offer; unfortunately for them the extended cut of a turd is just a longer turd. It can be more impressive, like “wow. I thought the normal turd was big, but this is so much more turd.”
37:29 Looks like meme’s back on the menu, boys!!
Faramir’s introduction in the Extended Cut was my favorite addition. It was an excellent repurposing of dialogue from the books to show this new character was not a mere soldier following orders, but someone with a deeper understanding of the costs and futility of war.
It may have been tonally out of place overall in the trilogy because, (as is mentioned) it’s a perspective that’s never brought up before this point or afterwards.
LOTR is a story largely about the forces of good vs evil, with musings on simpler aspects of life. That particular pondering on war and what it is to be an enemy was very much the author’s own words based on his real life war experiences.
Where it does fit into this story is a commentary on why humans should find themselves at odds. While Tolkien makes it clear that creatures like orcs are servants of evil, the humans that swear allegiance to Sauron and Saruman had free will not to serve. Those lines serve as a lament that human lives need not be lost to each other’s hands in such a conflict.
On the note of whether Sauron is truly evil, Gandalf does have a line (I can’t recall explicitly when it appears, but I think it was during his first conversation with Frodo about Gollum), and he says, “Even Sauron was not always so”.
It was making a point that originally as a Maiar, Sauron had been primarily concerned with Order, not power to dominate. By the time he’d become Morgoth’s lieutenant, his original goals had been twisted by malice and he’d become the force of darkness that persisted until the end of the Third Age.
I'm not sure how you can conclude that none of the characterization given to Saruman and Wormtongue in "The Ring of Barahir" plays into their future actions. The open contempt Saruman displays towards his underlings, specifically Wormtongue, after a setback (losing control of Theoden in this case) is the direct cause of his death at Wormtongue's hands in the extended edition of RotK.
In addition, Saruman learning about Aragorn does have some small effect beyond exposition:
1. It contrasts him with Sauron, who fears the Heir of Numenor, while he, Saruman, dismisses him. A minor thing
2. His dismissal of the knowledge is a reminder for the audience that the acceptance of Aragron's claim to the throne is not an automatic certainty. It's established with Boromir's dismissal at the Council of Elrond in FotR, but isn't mentioned again until 2 movies later with Denethor in Rotk. Having a small reminder in the TT to bridege the gap helps keep the momentum of Aragorn's arc going in the middle movie, similar to Frodo reminiscing about the Shire in "Elven Rope."
3. He uses the knowledge gained here to mock and belittle Gandalf at the beginning of RoTK, which helps establish his arc for that film.
I agree that none of this is strictly necessary to understand the events, plotlines, and character arcs that play out later, but I don't see how it can be concluded that the scene makes the movie worse, justifying its inclusion in D-Tier.
Also, Christopher Lee is in the scene, and his presence objectively cannot make a movie worse
Why would sauron fear aragorn? Is it because, if aragorn becomes the King, he could command an army against mordor?
@@djb9267 Yeah, that and Aragorn is Isildur's heir. Isildur caused Sauron a lot of grief, so I believe Sauron expects Aragorn to do the same.
There's one thing the Elven Rope scene does you forgot to mention.
It pays off the scene where Sam is disappointed to receive the rope from Galadriel. Which feels like an important scene to pay off.
The elvish weapon thing was definitely just a guess on the part of the uruk-hai. It makes sense that something saruman wants for the war would be a weapon, and such powerful weapons- going off the history of middle-earth- that such a powerful weapon would be elvish (as they usually are).
I remember one of the differences between ents in the theatrical and extended cuts was that Treebeard's long droning monologues from the extended cut really solidified himself, and by extension, other ents as being less like slow and old forest creatures and more like very tall kindly grandpas who keep talking about wearing onions on their belts (which was the style at the time). Because of this change, the decision to wage war on Isengard then becomes even more difficult and extreme, and the attack becomes recontextualised as these ancient, withdrawn and mostly peaceful fellows almost going against their nature; whereas in the theatrical cut they can seem more inclined toward physical confrontation.
While I'm not sure whether this change justifies the added runtime, I do think it has merit in further characterising Treebeard and his felow ents, and further informs their decision to finally pick a side in the war.
Hindsight really shows in this case, IMO. The material/dialogue/scenes are there but they just didn't find/figure out how to cut and rearrange the scenes in a bit better way to show this in the extended edition without dragging it down too much. Maybe condensing it more to a couple of larger Entmoot scenes with Quickbeam (was it the name of the young ent from the books?) explaining things to M&P with an entish version of hobbitry on side, away from Treebeards' Board of Directors would've worked better?
I fully agree with you and it's the same vibe I got. I think if they had rearranged the scenes to have all the ent scenes closer together and not breaking up important moments of the build up to the battle it could have worked better. It might have also made the arrival of the huorns so suddenly not feel as bizarre and "how did no one see them coming" as it would have had a more proper build up to Treebeard and the others deciding to take action. Followed by a 'snap' into action that would feel sudden and catch the audience by surprise I feel would have made it far more effective and less confusing, like have the hurons just run up seemingly out of nowhere instead of the orcs running into them pretending to stand still.
Just stopping by to leave the obligatory comment about the Boromir and Faramir scene at Osgiliath. It's just excellent; it emphasizes the connection between the brothers while also fleshing out both of their internal conflicts. We walk away with a greater appreciation for Boromir post-mortem and an already deep understanding of Faramir, who at this point in the series is only a new character. EASILY one of the best scenes in all of the extended editions and it still blows my mind why it wasn't in the theatrical version
Most cuts are nothing to do with scene quality, they are done to keep the length and more importantly the pacing of the movie how it needs to be to work, specifically in a cinema setting.
Introducing Denethor this early doesn't make sense from a structural perspective, especially since it's at a point where the audience might still not fully understand his role in the political landscape. A lot of things in the flashback only truly add value to people who are already familiar with the story and would go right over a first time viewer's head. So I actually think it's more fitting in the Extended Edition where it can serve to give more depth to characters that fans of the movies are already familiar with, without overwhelming casual viewers.
@@ThunderrrStormm This is my favourite added scene in the entire extended edition trilogy. It gives us so much important context into characters' motivations, how they view the Ring/War, and their relationships to each other, while forshadowing what Gandalf and Pippin will have to deal with when they meet Denethor later.
For the Uruk-hai scene, I think it makes sense to consider that Saruman had to have Orcs at some point BEFORE having Uruk-hai, obviously, because who is going to dig those fuckers up? Certainly not Saruman in his good whites.
The orcs the Uruk-hai meet DID come from Mordor… probably just a few weeks ago and they’ve been chopping down Fangorn and digging up sprouting Uruk-hai until Saruman gave em a specific task
Yeĺling at frodo to catch the box is like saying "shit" in confession. It just kinda comes out before you can stop yourself
Exactly, he doesn't say it because he values that salt more than Frodo's life, but because he on instinct doesn't want to lose a piece of hope. But also as a scene in a movie it does add a little subversive levity before the true danger begins. Kinda crazy for him to go on about that scene for like a whole 6 minutes lol
Lore bomb.!
The ring of Barahir is more important than Christopher Lee explains.
Barahir was the head of a tribe of men, who came to rescue Galadriel's brother Finrod, when they were surrounded in battle.
Finrod gave Barahir this ring as an oath to come to his aid in return.
Barahir was later killed by Sauron's forces, but his son Beren survived and took the ring as his family heirloom.
He later shows it to Fingon as a request for aid, as he has been charged with attaining a Silmaril from the Crown of Morgoth (Satan).
Fingon honours his oath and travels north with Beren, but they are all captured by Sauron and their company slowly murdered by wolves in a dungeon.
Fingon finally goes Superseyen and breaks his chains to defend Beren, killing the giant wolf with his bare hands. - but is mortally wounded in the process. His oath of friendship to the line of Barahir cemented.
Later, in the third age, when the king of Arnor is fleeing the Witchking in the northern wastes, he gives his ring to the wildmen who protect him, saying they can ransom for stores from his people.
The king's ship is destroyed and sinks in the northern seas, but the tribe do random it back, and so it continues to be held forever, by the kings/chief of the northern heirs of Isildur.
It is the most important heirloom of the kings of men, tracing thousands of years to the friendship of men and elves.
It is good that they reference it in the film.
I would actually rather they didn't reference this in the movies, as Aragorn shouldn't be wearing it. In the books, he gave this to Arwen as a token of their engagement. They probably had Aragorn wear the ring because they changed the nature of the relationship between him and Arwen, but by doing so, they weakened their dedication to each other. Think about this: what if in the scene in RotK where Arwen sees her future, she looks at her hand and sees the Ring of Barahir, and decides to go back to Aragorn? Also, they kept Arwen giving Aragorn a jewel of some kind (why they changed which jewel she gave I'll never know, but anyway), but they cut Aragorn giving Arwen something in return. As a result, this looks rather one sided if you know the lore behind the marriage customs of Elves
Isn't it also how Saruman knows Aragorn is Isildur's heir when Gandalf and co. arrive to confront him?
"Saruman then tells wild men of Dunland to culturally enrich the Westfold".. I think RFT might be based..
He definitely is. It's nice, it used to seem like every film criticism channel had to pay lip service to the left.
Chat, is this real?
Oh he based
As a Finn I can confirm that three decapitations is just fine but four is too much.
Difference between Normal Saturday Night and Splatter Movie. Can't go overboard in a family movie! /nods in agreement
Even before watching, I can tell Aragorn finding out Eowyn's cooking is abysmal is S tier and should not have been cut. On top of providing us with invaluable insight into her character and backstory, it foreshadows how exactly Aragorn and Arwen's relationship will end. Though it might sound like Aragorn didn't want to grow old and feeble, in truth he would've stayed a lot longer if only Arwen's cooking was not dog shit as well. In the end, the Gift of Man was the preferable choice.
Huh?
@@user-qv2mc3dw5o bro watched his own version 💀💀
I was with you.
Right up until you started talking about Arwen.
Everything before that I was pure gold. Everything after that didn't make sense.
I thought you were going to say it helps characterise Aragorn because it shows him to be gentle and kind even in his distaste.
I genuinely do believe that you did see some connection. You just haven't explained the context or the connection on why it helps foretell the relationship.
I genuinely want to hear what you have to say because I am intrigued I just don't see the connection you tried to make
I think this guy is either taking the piss or they’re using google translate
I guess these guys cant pick up sarcasm unless its spelled out in the extended edition 😏
The chad himself cronk comment had me absolutely crying 😂 long live cronk
In defense of Treebeard's scenes... Taking longer with them, does kind of emphasize their nature. They are slow, they take their time with everything they do. I admit I'm grasping at straws, but Treebeard is in fact, the best. (their and them being the Ents)
No no you make a good point. The fact we know how slow they are makes their later swiftness in the midst of battle both at Helm's Deep with the huron (i can't spell sorry) and the ents at Isengard a really effective bit of whiplash for the audience and some fun "don't judge a book by its cover" or "don't underestimate nature" type of vibe.
I like the choice to keep both sets of scenes on the same tierlist. It doesn't look nearly as one-sided as it did for Fellowship. Can't wait to see what patterns emerge in Return of the King!
I adore the inclusion of gameplay from the Lego games
Sliding that Palpatine "Do it" in Gollum talking about Shelob is diabolical
am i the only one who finds aragorn burning himself on stew hilarious? It was a much needed moment of actual failure on his part
I know how much time and effort goes into making videos like this, even when working with editors. Just want to say thanks for continuing to put out high quality analysis videos as regularly as you do. A lot of us appreciate the more thought provoking content.
One underrated thing about the Flotsam and Jetsam scene is that when they find the pipe weed, you realize that Sauruman is a hypocrite.
In the Fellowship of the Ring, when he is walking with Gandalf in the gardens around Orthanc, Sauruman tells Gandalf "your love of the halfling's leaf has clearly slowed your mind". It's both subtext for Gandalf having a soft spot for Hobbits that may cause him to miss such a vital detail as the One Ring being hidden in plain sight all these years, while also being a condescending comment from Sauruman about his disapproval of smoking weed.
And yet here we are at the end of the film and we discover that Sauruman is also a big enjoyet of "the halfling's leaf". Awesome little detail.
Edit: I realize that you added in the commentary from Peter Jackson talking about exactly this shortly after I wrote out this comment. My bad lol.
Does it make him a hypocrite though? For that to be true we'd have to have him making an anti-weed statement *after* it being established he has his own supply. It's more likely he tried it finally to see what the fuss was about and ended up liking it. So the real issue would be that Saruman isn't as removed from the simple comforts of the world as he would like to present to himself. And even after he started taking up smoking he still might view himself as above it all, which seems like a great bit of character building for him. Maybe I'm wrong but just simply calling him a hypocrite feels like an oversimplification.
Watching this channel talk about LOTR is better than sex
Any channel that talks about LOTR for 3 hours is better than sex..
I'm something of a LOTR analysis sexual myself
Well, better than bad sex anyway.
@@sidnew2739well the video last about 3 hours and 14 minutes longer than sex either way
Sex has always been overrated; a great sandwich on the other hand...
I know I'm a bit late, but I own horses and know fun horse facts, not only will horses eat meat if hungry enough, but often in war times when horses were used, they would be fed meat in order to stay nourished for battle. Some farm horses will gain a taste for meat and eat small animals like baby chickens. not common but can happen.
Not just horses, pretty much any herbivorous animals will eat meat if it gets a chance. Plants just lack certain nutrients, like calcium.
I will never forgive the french translator for changing Brego's name to Arod (both in the subtitles and the audio) becaude I spent my entire childhood thinking that the horse rescuing Aragorn after his fall was the same as the one Eomer gives him. Which made things even more confusing when I watched the extended edition for the first time and there were two Arod, the one Eomer gives him AND the one he calms in the stable.
I love the added characterisation of Aragorn keeping the horse that saved him until the very end and I completely missed this detail until I was old enough to watch the movies in english with english subtitles...
Watch all LOTR
2 weeks later: Wathcing 7+ hours of this guys content.
How on earth do you only have 50,000 subscribers?! Your vids are so good and thorough, deserve much more!
Your videos actually make my week I love watching them while going to bed. Never change and keep grinding ❤️❤️
The joke with Gimli and the ork's nervous system didn't bug me as much as the idea that Gimli, a seasoned axe fighter, would be willing to leave his axe (that he presumably likes and cares about keeping sharp) sitting embedded in a skull full of acidic ork blood and brains because he just didn't feel like putting it away.
Did he leave it? He's sitting on the Orc with the axe stuck on its head while taking a smoke break after a long battle, which implies that he doesn't plan to.
I never thought of that, but I think you’re right. There’s no reason to not remove and clean his axe. Blood can ruin a blade faster than you’d think.
@@brianensign7638 Pretty much, even if he wasn't totally aware that caustic fluids might be there to potentially destroy his weapon, just the fact that he treated it like he didn't care about it at all when it's obviously something that keeps him safe so many times in his life just hit me like , huh!?
But to be honest, this is problably the least of the issues with gimli's characterization in the films vs. the books. The movies just never treated him like a serious (if mundane type) fighter the way they do Boromir or Aragorn.
@@SagaciousNihilist Yeah the original joke was that the axe blade stuck in the brain was making the ork twitch so Legolas shot him with an arrow, making Gimli yell about the Ork's nervous system. Gimli just didn't bother pulling the axe out and wiping it, or doing anything at all with it. Which seemed weirder than the joke itself.
@@mattmeteor5011 I don’t know that they NEVER treat Gimli seriously. He’s serious as a heart attack at Balin’s tomb. And despite the ‘toss me’ gag, he gives a good account of himself at Helm’s Deep.
I think Gimli gets the butt end of a lot of jokes because of his pride, not because he’s a dwarf. He’s definitely easier to take seriously than any of the dwarves in the Hobbit trilogy.
The Hourns arriving when they do actually makes perfect sense. The Uruks seemed to have taken roughly a day to march to Helms Deep(which on the maps shown in the film isnt that far from Isengard) & the Hourns left at the very least early afternoon of that same day. The battle takes all through the night. Assuming the trees move at the same speed as the Uruks on the march(which, is being conservative, as how fast semi-sentient trees the size of buildings move isnt something you can estimate from real world parallels as IRL trees dont walk, as a rule, at all) means they would arrive at some point in the night, after the Uruks had begun the siege, with their whole host pressed agaisnt the wall.
Eomer & the Rohirrim arrive in the morning from a different direction than the Uruks did, right at dawn.
The Uruks fleeing blindly into the suddenly appearing forest is entirely understandable, as they are routed, being pursued, & in a panic. Which is more pressing, stopping to wonder where these trees came from, or fleeing from the pissed off horsemen currently trying to hack you to death?
Trees arent scary! We've been cutting them down for months now!
But they are strong my lord.
Although I don’t necessarily disagree with any of the points you made about it I still very much enjoy the Ent Draft scene. Mainly for payoffs in Return of the King. Merry and Pippin are on a very different journey than Frodo and Sam and letting them joke around really shows that. And I like them growing because it makes them fighting more believable down the line because they’re no longer cleaning up scraps or being taken alive. I also love stacking the dangerous scenarios pippin finds himself in throughout the trilogy only to get through all of it without a scratch. He recognizes that he must face the consequences of his actions and other people die/get hurt but not him. Moria, Isengard, fighting at Minas Trith, climbing massive cliff faces to light beacons. You know when he got back to the Shire he was strutting around there like the next Bullroarer Took ripping his pipe and telling people “you gotta be good to get lucky”
For what it's worth, RFT. I don't know if these videos get as many views as your "...is not very good" videos, but this series is both incredibly enjoyable and beautifully thought out. I think it also gives even greater credence to your ability to critique both good and bad writing and explain why each is which. I am very glad you'll be doing the third film.
I'm very much looking forward to "Gibbets and Crows", personally. I'm sure you'll make Christopher Lee proud.
I disagree with your take on the Entdraft scene. Well, I mostly agree actually except for one detail that I think you missed. One of the big removals from the Fellowship of the Ring movie was the entire sequence with Tom Bombadil, that is in the book but not in the film.
The entire scene with the Hobbits being swallowed by the tree and then Treebeard coming back and and rebuking it is almost line for line taken from a similar scene that is in the Tom Bombadil sequence in the books (where it's Tom who does the rebuking). So another reason for including the scene in the extended edition, where they weren't so tight for time, was that it was a nice little nod to the Tom Bombadil section from the first book that had to be left out.
Given the immense respect that the film-makers had for the books, it was nice that they were able to find a way to acknowledge the Tom Bombadil part from the books, in a way that did fit into the story of the second movie even if it contributed nothing valuable to it. Therefore, even though the scene is bad for all the reasons you mentioned, I think including it was a good thing.
"Culturally enrich the westfold." Literally made people as if im ok because i started coughing as it was so unexpected, and I was drinking.
"And they continue taking the hobbits to Isengard."
We got through that about as sleekly as possible.
25:00
Well in the theatrical edition there is no introduction to the Orcs.
They’re just suddenly there with the Uruk-hai and even as a child watching for the first time I noticed the distinct differences between the two and was questioning where the orcs came from.
2:40:40
Two things, mainly because Engagement for The Algorithm (and because this is the first bit I've actually felt like I had anything to add).
1: The Orcs not noticing the Suddenly Forest is, in fact, perfectly understandable. At this point Sarumon's army has been completely routed and is effectively less 'retreating' and more 'running in a blind panic away from the people trying to kill them'. A sudden calvary charge directly into the rear of an army has historically been exactly the kind of thing that led to armies losing discipline and scrambling for safety, and that's _before_ you add the wizard magic to it.
I mainly bring this up because, considering how often Hollywood gets this kind of thing wrong, I feel compelled to defend films that get these kinds of things right.
2: This a thing from the books - it's an exceptionally faithful recreation of how Tolkien described the battle ending.
Note that I offer this as an explanation, not an excuse. In practice it feels like a bit of an anticlimax, even before you think about the trees tearing ass across Middle Earth just for the sake of what plays out like one giant troll.
EDIT: 2:46:14
As both an autist and someone who loved this line in spite of the anachronism, I can only bow to you in respect, good sir.
One way I think the Ent Draft scene could have worked better would be to have the water have an intoxicating effect. This way Merry and Pippin's character regression would be mitigated since it would be clear that they weren't in their right minds at the time. Also, Merry's remark on Pippin's height wouldn't be out of jealousy but as a result of him having, for a lack of a better term, an acid trip. One thing I do like about this scene is that we finally see for ourselves that the tress are in fact dangerous instead of just being told that they are.
After the nightmare that was the boogie EFAPs you bless us with this fantastic palate cleanser. Thank you, may all your food orders be accurate and your socks be free of holes.
Thank you for the support!
"When did every frame a pause abandon frame for fatty?"
Greetings Rando, a great video once again. You're always very entertaining to watch. Thanks and keep up the fine work.
One thing I'd like add as it's kinda interesting, is that Uglúk (The Menu Orc) is actually "fixed" in the German and possibly other dubs of the movie. It doesn't take away from the criticism of the original, of course, but it's still nice to see that some effort was put into some parts of the translation which is usually lacking. For the record Uglúk says: "Ab sofort steht wieder Fleisch auf dem Speiseplan!" in the German version, meaning pretty much the same on paper but with the difference that the word "Speiseplan" can be both interpreted as a Menu but its main connotation is a meal plan or alternatively a ration plan, which fixes the odd mental image of the orcs visiting a restaurant but opens up further amusing questions about how much thought Saruman might put into the diet of his Uruks.
Also, trust me when I say that even people living in the countries with the harsher censorship for these movies really know why these censorship rules are in place to begin with. It's simply mind boggling how movies are rated here. xd
I have a different view on the stew-scene. I find the "Stew"-Part horrible and cringe worthy and the added information of Aragorn's backstory uninteresting. I'm glad that they cut it in the Theatrical Cut. In fact: Its one of my least favorite added scenes and I skip it everytime I watch the Extended Cut.
If you only watch the movies you might think that the main point behind Eowyn's story is "woman destroys the patriarchy". But I think Tolkien's real intentions were different.
Eowyn was a counterpart to Faramir. Faramir hated war, but also knew that it was sometimes necessary because evil forces from outside would threaten your country.
Eowyn on the other hand thought that she could only achieve glory if she did great deeds in battle. She thought war was something glorious.
But after her confrontation with the Witch King she realized that war was horrible and that she never wanted to be in a battle ever again. She fell in love with Faramir for this exact reason.
Both had the same values and after the war was over settled down in Ithilien, were they build beautiful gardens because both loved seeing things grow rather than destroyed by war.
Gimli's 'nervous system' line is comparable in contrast with Wormtongue's comments on the explosive charge made by Saruman. He doesn't express his doubts as, "wow, you've made a bomb, how does that work?" He speaks with the terminology he is familiar with to ask how a futuristic piece of tech he is unfamiliar with works: "how can fire undo stone?"
40:41 I believe none of the Orcs and Uruk-Hai knew it was the One Ring. Everyone is susceptible to it, therefore Saruman knows that if the Orcs/Uruk-Hai get ahold of the One Ring, they would likely get corrupted and run off with it.
As much as an orc can get corrupted anyway.
I think the elven rope scene would've worked better if Sam had shouted about the spice-box falling and Frodo just grabbing it without being told to do so by Sam. That would further show the risks Frodo is willing to take, potentially endangering himself while caring for Sam more than his own life, further enforcing his need for Sam's protection.
while i agree with you during the Uruk-Hai extended scene the Uruk actully gave merry medicine called Draught which, while tasting horrible, that being the reason he spits it up, is stated to give anyone who drinks it massive amounts of energy and can heal wounds surprisingly fast.
The first video was really well made. Top quality looking forward to this one.
Time for my favourite movie with my favourite scenes to get an absurdly long review
*Night Camp at Fangorn - minor inaccuracy.
The One Ring can technically be called an "elwish weapon" because Sauron appeared as an elf several times in the books, and He taught Eregion and Celebrimbor how to craft the remaining rings. This works as an easter egg for those who have read the books and as a possible legend among the orcs)
*The Ring of Barahir - trying to defend
I think this scene kicks off the confrontation between Sauron and Aragorn specifically. If I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that the Powers of Darkness learn of Aragorn as the heir to the throne. It is easy to assume that Saruman could pass this information to Sauron
It's never said that Sauron appeared as an elf. It's not specified what his fake backstory was as Annatar apart from him being from Valinor wanting to make Middle-earth better, but it makes much more sense that he would pose as a Maia. Pretending to be an elf runs the risk of having his true nature discovered, requires a backstory that explains why he's an amazing smith even though noone has heard of him or his family before, and commands less respect.
@@SNWWRNNG Well he is a Maia so posing as one would be a bit redundant. I think he pretended to just be some dude who definitely wasn't evil.
always have to chuckle at the theoden signature. its like milpool when milhouse signs barts cast.
I always thought the bit of Merry and Pippin finding pipeweed was an allusion to "The Scouring of the Shire" from the book, which the movies cut out
the fix for the first scene is even simpler: just have the box be filled with galadriel’s dust from lothlorien. it would remind the audience how valuable the gifts of the lady of the wood are, and you could put in a scene later about how sam was thinking of the elven magic for a split second instead of his master, rather than being like ‘oh here’s the chicken seasoning from earlier!’
Sam didn't get any dust from Galadriel, he got magic acorns.
@@sidnew2739 maybe in the films (i don’t remember). in the books he got a box full of earth from the lady
@@sidnew2739 In the books, he received a box filled with soil from Galadriel's garden and a single mallorn seed. The seed is planted at the end of the book after the Party Tree was cut down by Saruman's brigands. None of this is in the movie.
I also like the last scene with Faramir because it explains how he knew where Sam and Frodo were going. I the Return of the King, he tells Gandalf where they're heading, but we don't know how Faramir knew that. Sure he could infer it (knowing their plans and knowing the area), but I think it's better that we show that he knew for certain
Something you can't forget during the Elven Rope scene is that Sam's reaction to dropping the "little piece of home" was panic. He wasn't thinking, in that instant, that Frodo's life was in danger (despite having just determined they couldn't see the bottom). He slipped, and his mind focused entirely on what he'd dropped--as would anyone's. My opinion is that maybe you're being just a touch overcritical of Sam's reaction (NOT decision, reaction).
Wouldn’t remove Treebeard’s poems. They are lovely and bring me a sense of peace. I think they show what’s at stake for the creatures of middle earth and nature in general. If Sauron wins not only does it spell doom for men, elves, dwarves, and hobbits, but it also spells doom for the forests and the beasts of the field and birds of the air.
Does the ent draft scene not feel reassuring? I think the implication with seeing Merry and Pippin goofing off doesn’t really undercut their character growth, but rather reassures us that despite they traumatic events they have been through this far (including being separated from their entire party in a foreign land) they will continue to find joy in each other’s company and will not let their spirits be broken despite their misfortune. I agree that it doesn’t advance the plot at all, but I still think it’s got something of value to add to their characters.
As much as I enjoy Gimli and Legolas' banter, I do agree with the weirdness of the nerve joke, and the lowness of their counts, although given that I enjoy seeing them interact, I generally forgive it. I also agree that the Ent stuff is kinda eh generally. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the Return of the King. Honestly, I think this series is some of your best work, if only because it's nice to hear about something more positive than the rest of the movies that you generally cover, because as much as I enjoy those videos... it's hard to beat hearing someone be positive about something you yourself enjoy. Keep up the great work!
The things I'm most looking forward to in Return of the King are probably the extended scenes involving the Witch King. As much as he's a side character in the movies, he's probably my favorite villain in terms of build up, design, and just how menacing he is. He is Sauron's right hand, and basically an extension of his will on the battlefield, as well as a face for the Nine who were already awesome in their own right. In addition, I'm also excited for the Mouth of Sauron, I'm not certain how high that scene will end up on your list, but I do enjoy getting to see a villain be such an unapologetic jerk to the heroes. He absolutely feels like the kind of dude Sauron would send to meet the army of the West, a "diplomat" that serves only as an insult, something to try and sow doubt and fear into their hearts.
My favourite scene of the entire trilogy is the scene with Boromir and Faramir celebrating after recapturing Osgiliath. It shows a side of Boromir that I feel was missing in Fellowship, loving, proud and always trying to do what it right to help men. Him knowing that his father is a jerk and calling him out on it is great.
Dude, your videos are just fantastic. I’ve only recently discovered you thanks to your previous video in this series, and quickly got caught up with the rest of your catalogue.
Your analysis is like scratching an itch that couldn’t be reached before; it’s so satisfying to hear you traverse logic and reason to meet your ultimate point. Keep up the good work, Random.
I think you take too seriously the "elven weapon" line. They just mean/have been told (since they are not to be trusted) that the hobbits have some mcguffin, something magical and very important to Saruman. I dont think Jackson was thinking about orcs hate for everything elven
Edit: then again, its true that in this film we see Gollum hating everything elven...
I personally like the Elven rope scene. I disagree that Sam valuing Frodo's life as much as he does would be sufficient to overcome the instinct that caused him to tell Frodo to catch it. Our instincts are often maladaptive if we are placed into a different environment than the one we honed them in and this scene is a testament to that. We get to see a way in which Sam is potentially a liability for Frodo. However, as the movie/Frodo tells us later: "Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam", which is why despite this potential peril, the culmination of the scene is soft and warm.
However, the tension the scene represents doesn't stop there. In ROTK, Sam says he has rationed food so there's enough for "the way home". By this point in The Two Towers, Sam hasn't begun to grapple with what Frodo already feels to be the case: that there is no going back to how things were, not really. That's more true for Frodo than it is for Sam, and this tension is further explored in Sam and Frodo's interactions with Gollum/Smeagol.
For Sam, the salt represents the home that he believes he will be returning to. He is surviving in part by focussing on an imaginary idea of "afterwards". Frodo's reaction to the salt felt wistful, and I think even already, he knows "home" doesn't exist for him anymore. Sam shouting to save the salt was definitely a mistake because it could've led to Frodo's death, but i understood this as coming from the same place as much of Sam's steadfast hope and support. Perhaps naive, but also crucial and necessary to both him and Frodo.
Great series! Love this type of content
Finland is basically that girl in Mauler’s class who cried when the teacher played Fellowship for the students because Lurtz was too scary.
If every scene added in the extended edition was worthless except for the Boromir flashback, it would _still_ be better than the theatrical version.
The cliff scene critique seems slightly harsh to me. Sam did not shout "Grab it even if it costs you your life" he asked Frodo to catch it. Which would be a natural reaction if something precious fell down. A small wooden box latched shut with a flimsy catch could shatter or open and spill it's contents from any height. Seasoning spilling out means it's useless. Sam himself reaches out for the box, demonstrating that he himself values the box enough to risk his own life. This reflects upon his character valuing the comfort of home beyond anything else. To Sam's Hobbit mind a box of seasoning is WORTH letting go of a rope and reaching out for the box because it might in the future allow him and his master some comfort from the taste of a juicy roast chicken.... or rabbit stew.
Sam neither foresaw Frodo falling nor put Frodo in greater risk than he himself was in, hanging one handed from the rope reaching down. All critique falls on the writers for desiring a fake tension scene by having Frodo fall, to fake out the audience.
But...why did he not see that? Is he an idiot? I know Sam isn't the sharpest tool, but come on, he has to know that this is dangerous.
When the Uruk-hai says Mery and Pippin carry Elvish weapons, he could be referring to the swords they were given by Galadriel, it wouldn't take an eagle to see that they're carrying them and that they are, in fact, of Elven make, that's easier to believe than him making it up in its entirety.
I guess this is theoretically possible, but highly, highly unlikely. The main Uruk would recognize those weapons as daggers, and if he was trying to communicate that information, he would just say daggers. It's very obvious what they are. The second reason is more meta: the daggers never come up again in any of the movies after they are given by Galadriel. The absolute closest you get to them being relevant is Merry stabbing the Witch-King. However, what he is using to stab him isn't very clear (if anything it supports it being the small sword he got from Rohan, as the handle appears to be brown) and nobody afterwards comments on his Elven dagger being used like that. So I highly doubt the Uruk was referring to their Elven daggers
I doubt it. Seems like an awful amount of effort sending an army to kidnap two halflings for a couple of elvish daggers.
Great video as always Rando! About the ring of Barahir, It's first owner was Finrod Felagund, whom of course we know from the infamous Rings of power show, he brought it from Valinor to Beleriand, and after the man Barahir saved his life in a fight against orcs, Finrod gifted his ring to Barahir as a sign of friendship and as a promise that if anyone from Barahir's family ever needed his help, he would help them no matter the cost. Finrod ultimately keeps his promise to the last consequences by losing his life to save Barahir's son, Beren. which is an ancestor of Aragorn. It has a tremendous weight in the full story.
For some of the better/necessary extended scenes oddly being left out, it's possible that they weren't filmed initially and were only shot during pick-ups after the theatrical version was already released. For example, they didn't start filming Return of the King pick-ups until after winning all the Oscars
I love these breakdown comparison videos! Makes me want to rewatch the extended version because I've only really sat through the whole thing once
I think (displaying the) the function of the Elven Rope is excellent and it introduces us to further Elven gifts that play a role later in the movie(s).
What I absolutely can't appreciate is that Frodo did not break his legs like any normal person would. It is physically impossible not to break your legs when you don't know how far it is you fall.
But the bottom is obscured because of thick evil fog. Not because the fall is big. If you close your eyes and jump, will you break both legs because you cant see how far is the fall?
@@AndreLuis-gw5ox Ask someone walking down the stairs and thinking they're on the last step already.... but then there's one more step. Ouch! It's painful to even think it, let alone doing it.
@@lutek1 I do that a lot, but I've never broken my leg.
@@dutchmansmine9053 ouch ouch ouch.... OMG - Clearly I'm not as flexible anymore as you are, if I ever was. 🙂
Eomer's character really got shafted in the films (both cuts). He was so much more in the books. He's one of those that I appreciate any extended cuts with him in it, because it's at least a little bit more of him.
I'm currently rereading the books and I second this. His character was so important in both the Two Towers and Return of the King. He was reduced from an important main character to a side character.
@@katerrinah5442 100%. In the book he was present for all of the battle of Helms Deep, he had a running dialogue with Gimli over Galadriel, and he was more strongly trying to fight alongside Aragorn throughout.
Yep. They basically just turned him into Erkenbrand after his meeting with the three hunters.
@@valrond exactly!
Sons of the Stuward, together with the extended scenes from fellowship, really are crucial for Boromir's character. I grew up watching the theatrical version and always only saw Boromir as this arrogant unrightly praised piece of sh*t that betrayed the fellowship and only did 1 good deed while dying. The theatrical cut really does a massive disservice to Boromir!
Just because I’m a massive fan of the Final Tally scene, I had to do some maths. 10,000 orcs vs. 300 men in Rohan. If everyone on the good side were to survive the night, the average kill count would be 33.333 per person. This is without taking into consideration the kills by the Forrest, the Elves of Lothlorien, and the arrival of Gandalf and the Rohirrim. Adding these guys into the mix drastically reduces the average kill count even further while also making up for the likelihood that the original 300 did not all survive. That being said, if we decide to work with the original average kill count of 33.333 per person - this still puts Legolas and Gimli a full 33% better than the rest of the warriors. As for the large head start Legolas has over Gimli in the beginning… Legolas fights with his bow, therefore can reach the enemies far earlier than Gimli can in the initial charge. Gimli can’t get his first kill until an orc makes it up the wall, whereas Legolas had lots of time before that. Legolas’s arrows also have to run out eventually. Yes, he has his daggers, but his preferred weapon is his bow. Gimli’s axe is his preferred weapon and doesn’t run out of swings unless it actually breaks. I think this is how Gimli catches up… or Legolas lied when he said 17 just to flummox Gimli 😂 there’s my justification so hopefully it can go back into your perfect cut of the film 😊😊😊