Length is not a problem, because you guys are legitimately reviewing a show that deserves to be called out for its awfulness. Thank you for having a sense of humor about it. Your laughter is infectious.
You should check out The Little Platoon, he posted a 14 hour review of the Acolyte about a week ago. I haven't watched any Rings of Power episodes, but I watched a dozen youtubers tear each episode apart.
Michael is 100% right with his reference to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol. I'll bet that is what these inept Showrunners would cite as reasoning for "humanising" the Orcs. However, even in that passage from the book (The Choices of Master Samwise, The Two Towers), it's clear that what the Orcs desire is to get some distance from the Nazgul is so that they can go and plunder on their own. They do not give any indication that they are morally repulsed by anything - they simply do not have the capacity for that level of moral introspection. It's simply a base desire to be free of orders so they can pillage on their own. What RoP is doing with this storyline is completely ludicrous but the whole thing is just absurd. Personally, I am beginning to think its all a spoof...Anyway, no more for me. I'll just confine myself to watching the RUclips reviews. Much more entertaining and I'll not have to shell out for a new TV after putting my foot through it following yet another insane plot device that crash lands into another episode.
Orcs are like genetic psychopaths. They can have momentary conversations if it serves their needs but the moment they feel any impulse it becomes the most important thing and they use violence to solve their impulses...hence why Shagrat and Gorbag end up fighting because of a shiny shirt. It is fine to pity a psychopath that has no control over their impulses, and are basically so immoral that they are animalistic in nature, but you wouldn't have sympathy or understanding of such a thing. Gandalf pitied all of Sauron's slaves, but would also kill them if need be.
Its policy now in most shows not to totally demonise the antagonist , they can't be just evil , they must be relatable , doesn't matter Orc's are basically servants bound by Morgath are basically demons incapable of ever doing good , they must be sympathetic with chance of Redemption for modern audencies , dumbest thing is they have the Orcs living in absolute sqular and filth , they are dirty , sloven , lethargic not really great with english accents but i beleive urban southern working class accents , accents in this thing bother me anyway , hilarious and cringe at the same time , but the Orc's are loving parents , family orientated , even the wildests of beasts keep their dens clean for their young , whats the excuse for the filth , the mannerisims , they are servants of Morgoth , corrupted and pure evil , not working class chavs , lumbered with a tyrant boss and crappy union representation .
Yes long reviews are great! I need someone who knows the depths of the lore better than me to help me process all the internal dismay that I experience when watching RoP. This is good therapy!
@@Br4dSp34dIt's strange how Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is off limits, they have no rights to it at all, but they keep trying desperately to tie their god awful show to the films.
Your longer reviews are the best!! I watch other channels too but yours is the most Tolkien focused and you often make such great points about the lore I didn’t even consider. Love your channel! You’re true Tolkien fans!
Also don't forget the evil forest the Orcs say no-one comes out alive from, in Mordor which has only just been created, and which Men have been living in for hundreds of years when it was the Southlands. Just makes no sense whatsoever.
I've only watched reviews on this sad excuse for a Tolkein show but another thing I'm not understanding is there seems to be mentions of ruins of Numemorian origins? At this time there also shouldn't be any ruined Numenorian cities. This is supposed to be the height of their power lol
Considering that Tazmanian Devil pups fight, biting and clawing at each other before they can walk or even see, I can only imagine how savage orc babies are. I can't imagine them having family units since I always imagined Tolkien's orcs being similar to army ants. Just a swarming mass out to overwhelm and subjugate believing that everything is meant to be consumed or meant to provide for them.
.what you don’t understand is, the reason Celebrimbor doesn’t forge anything is because he’s the “Assistant to the Regional Manager”, his job is to supervise his staff.
I enjoy the long reviews! If people think they’re too long, there’s a million channels making shorter ones. Yours are so much more informative and have so much depth.
@@creepingdread88 don't know about the "not allowed" part... Tolkien has sold rights to very pathetic theater shows multiple times to create at least some revenue for his family back in the time...
What I imagine about orcs mating etc is probably something like some wild animals. Not much nurturing going on except instinct. They'd have fast pregnancies with usually more than one infants. Few would survive but they'd have dozens of babies in their lifetime. The few that would survive they'd grow up feral and tortured with no sense of family. The little loving nuclear orc family was ridiculous. BTW I only recently learned that Tolkien wrote them to procreate. I thought they were created by dark magic from dirt like it was shown in the movies and in the BfME games haha. 😂😂
The Orcs are my favourite characters in Middle Earth. They’re endlessly relatable: evil, bloodthirsty, relentless, cannibalistic, humorously suicidal, they love battle, they want to wipe out all humans and they’re overall just a great time to watch every time they’re on screen. This… is a travesty on all levels
To reiterate what I said in ep 1 or 2, I live for in-depth reviews. Short reviews are more for deciding if one as a third party would watch the show or movie. In-depth or Longman reviews are more valid imo.
I am telling you guys, if people got together and made a low budget spoof movie on the ROP, that could get more viewership than the actual show. That could single handily bring back the parody comedy genre.
The eagle landed in nest and said to his wife: - Hello Love - Hello husbend, how was your trip? - It was good, the grandma is fine i brought her wat you asked me, but something strange has happened - What was that my love? - When i was flying over Numenor Empire i saw a big tower, i was a little tired so i sit on the top of it, what occurred there were humans there, a lot of them, they started to chant Farazon or Pharazon i dont know, and the one guy took a sword. I was thinking of saying that i'm traveling to my sick grandmother but then i got scared and flew away. - Those Numenoreans are weird - Indeed they are.
The issue these writers have is that they don't have a true understanding of Evil (with a capital E). As you point out, Evil is built into the Orcs not in a facile "they're bad just because" way, but because of the profound malign influence of an evil subcreator in Morgoth. Folk often understandably get anxious around the idea of "evil races" because of real history, but they're looking in the wrong direction. Folk think the Orcs are caricatures of "barbarous" non-white peoples (not helped by some uncharacteristically poorly-chosen words from Tolkien himself), & making simplistic West=Europe & East=Asia allusions. But the Cirith Ungol chapter proves that the real Orcs are much closer to home. Orcs are not like human religious/ethnic groups who have been monstered & othered by the West: Orcs are the ones who dehumanise, oppress, & exterminate those peoples. The cruelty & hatred in their being is externalised, transforming them into horrors. Orcs aren't Jews, or Arabs, or Africans - they're the Nazis, Stalin's Communists, the Khmer Rouge, Al Quada, and all those supposed "People's Parties". They are the monsters people become when hatred engulfs their souls.
This is more entertaining an hour than the Rings of Power... so honestly, thank you Amazon, without you we wouldn't get such amazingly entertaining content.
Wow, I read something about orc families in one of my LOTR Groups and I just thought someone was joking around at the idea. But... I never.. everrrr .. considered that ROP actually made orc families.
Correct, though a bit incomplete. Celebrimbor forged them without Sauron, and Sauron never touched them. However, Celebrimbor did forge them using Sauron's teachings.
This show has the same problems The Acolyte had: close/medium shots where there should be wide establishing shots to show the epicness of the environment. Contrast this with HOTD - that show knew what they were doing. Its why this show looks so cheap - it’s how you would shoot something if you didn’t have enough extras, and couldn’t get a shooting permit. For a show with this budget, it’s inexcusable, and shows the utter lack of professionalism from the director of photography and the director - both of which I guarantee were hired for their lady-parts.
Putting aside ROP itself; is anyone else disheartened by the fact that every major studio is full of CW levels of competency and creativity? I don’t see how things will improve if the industry is full of bad writers.
i love that your videos are long and detailed , i like hearing all the things you have to say, even the rants, cause I rant about the same things you guys do :)
11:00 Well made point here. Just because we are told that goblins/orcs "breed" or "multiply" in profusion does not automatically at all mean that sexual reproduction has to be involved; in fact to assume that it must, shows a depressing lack of imagination (something Tolkien would have despaired of in any student of his). Germs and bacteria breed and multiply; it doesn't involve sexual reproduction.
the funny thing is, there are plenty of anime and manga fantasy that have done this with orc and goblins, so its not new concept, but it does not fit within Tolkiens world.
Tolkien did write a scene with orcs talking about getting a cottage, away from the whips of the evil masters, although they also talked about hopefully it's close to where they could have great plunders as well. I still love your videos, and I'm a free loader.
This is a mischaracterization of the passage. Never do they even mention a dwelling of any kind. They just want to be chaotic evil instead of serving lawful evil. The place to loot on their own is not a "hopeful" prospect, the priority is to get away from the big bosses and loot first and foremost. No cottages here.
3:13 Yes, Orcs reproduce like any other race, be it Elves, Men or Dwarves. I'm seeing an awful lot of misguided backlash against Rings of Power that claim the lore is that there are only male elves, and they reproduce as in the Jackson films, out of mud. I'm not defending what Rings of Power have done by any means, as it's difficult/impossible to imagine anything like a loving family unit of Orcs. You can imagine young orcs being culled to kill off any weak ones, to breed the most savage evil Orcs possible. They are an evil race, and if they have families (for example Bolg son of Azog implies they do), they will be evil families.
I think you mean "male orcs" As I have heard, Tolkein once mentioned there'd "have" to be female orcs, but its not something he wanted to get too into. The backlash against RoP is justified, but some people admittedly are getting the lore wrong because they're primarily thinking about the films, or misremembering what the books actually stated. Tbf, this particular issue might not have been brought up in LOTR specifically.
@@JaidynReiman Yes, you are of course right. And yes, it's coming from the films, and is a good illustration of how silly things from the movies bleed into how people believe Tolkien thought about his creation
Yes, you're right. Those who say no orc females exist are wrong. It's in a letter and, imo, makes sense due to many of the later thoughts he had on orc origins that Christopher published. However I would personally say the movie-goer misconception is more mired in complexity and uncertainty and FAR less idiotic than portraying a loving downtrodden blue collar orc family yearning to live peacefully. The incessant need to couch evil as just misunderstood wears thin... and to boot the scene was written and portrayed very poorly. It's an all 'round 0/10 imo. For me the backlash, even if not fully informed, is not only warranted but welcomed.
@@niklbauglir Yes, the backlash is well intentioned, but it's just wrong, and undermines the claims by those who do stuff like this that they are defending what Tolkien wrote. Because Orcs created from the mud, and only male orcs existing, is not what Tolkien wrote.
Prefer the longer reviews as there is so much to dissect in what's supposed to be a Tolkien adaptation. Please continue them as I find them more engaging than the show itself at this point.
I wanted to say something about Cirdan looking like a pensioner, continuing the trend of RoP projecting human traits onto immortal elves, but after watching the whole "peacefull orc family" scene and the forging of the rings (if by "forging" we can describe tossing a piece of metal into a bowl, like a turd drops in a toilet) it seems pointless. PS: did the show imply that Ulmo stoped Cirdan from forging...sorry, meant "tossing" the rings in the "deepest point of the ocean" (which happens to be 200metres from the coast)? Or was this the writers' idea of a payoff to the whole "the sea is always right" thing from the first season?
That was the cringiest thing ever. Not seeing obvious orc females is part of the mystery imo. Or if they just had to do female orcs at least make it cool. I would imagine them as being almost like the males in personality , I certainly don't want to see them making weird sniffing gestures at a prop doll, also the orc dad seemed cross eyed.
Cannot disagree more with this video! The reviews are too short, please take more time. Love your perspectives, honest and genuine, thank you gents for safeguarding the truth of Tolkien's lore. Count yourselves as members of the Faithful, the Kings men (ROP fans), may seem loudest, but they will not prevail.
Also , wanna point out while in SIL the official version is that Ar-Pharazon usurped the throne . Later Christopher uncovers later drafts from JRR that expand more on Numenor and that particular situation . Where Phrazon is described as the most beautiful among Men and that Miriel was seduced by his beauty , so despite of the forbidden for the Numenorians to wed anyone closer than 2nd cousin ( he is her first cousin ). She agrees willingly to wed him. The most beautiful human male was Ar-Pharazonaccording to Tolkien in HoMe I believe it was in vol12. And let’s not forget royal Numenorians ( even as removed in time as Aragorn ) had no facial hair , because of their grand sire bring of half elven origins . And ofc their height and majesty and we se nothing of the sort here .
The most egregious misunderstanding is still this: *Elrond: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring, or perish. *Durin: Perish? Perish how? *Elrond: _Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing,_ slowly diminishing, until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time. Forever. (Also, that Orc quote is not from a Letter, it is from Morgoth's Ring)
The fucking “Orc ambitions…. “ line had me dying…. Stupid show runners trying to use allegories again… Tolkien didn’t use allegories. Such blasphemy!!!!
LONG REVIEWS!! I listen to them when I'm doing dishes or playing videogames. I hope you keep doing what you're doing. Maybe you could timestamp the review and at the end have a sort of 'sum up' bit that the short attention span people could fast forward to. I enjoy longer format reviews as they give me something to listen to during the long work day.
I've watched two of your videos tonight, and yes they are long but you leave nothing out so please keep them as they are. I missed the Orc wife and baby because they just didn't look like a family to me btw.
These are run an informative. I did ask a bit ago for other channels to watch and got good responses from y’all. Thank you! Has anyone watched Tolkien Untangled ? He’s got fun, and intense, “how’d I make a second age tv series,” and wonder if anyone else has listened to them? Anyone who does listen to this fella, thoughts?
Yeah I don't think they mentioned it in the episode as shelob but I think people will go off the interview with maxim baldry where he said he saw in the script he wakes in a spider lair and he thought its shelob.
I had so many questions about the spider scene in addition to those Michael asked. How did the orc opposite Isildur suddenly get free? Was he already loose, and he just decided to keep hanging there to have a nap? Why did he attack Isildur instead of running to save himself? Why did all the spider silk both were covered in disappear completely between one scene and the next?
With regard to the comment about so few surviving the pyroclastic flow, remember that in the Two Towers, when Theoden, Legolas and Gimli got back to Helms Deep after the ambush, Eowyn commented by saying: "'So few, so few have come..." Then Gimli tells her that Aragorn fell. So that's where that dialogue comes from, the PeterJackson movies. Member berries again. 🙄
After wondering how Celebrimbor doesn’t recognize Halbarad for months and then realizing he does in fact know who he is, I’m very concerned about what the answer is to how they are going to do both Pharazon’s fall with Sauron and Sauron’s fall in a besieged Mordor at the same time. I’m guessing the show won’t make it that far tho 🤷♂️
I’m glad others address the orc issue . I honestly feel like I’m the sole person at least on fb to feel this is the worst breach of anything resembling lore , ROP could do. And I am really not out to hate on ROP and its ( quite devoted ) fans . But this pollutes the lore in a way , that it’s twisting Tolkien’s words to pretend this nonsense is “ what Tolkien wanted “ as it’s quite the opposite . And it’s spread on fb mainstream pages who pose as “ lore pages “. So, the last time I pointed the orc issue out , I actually got banned in one of them . But the complete disregard of the complexity of the orc issue Tolkien faced his entire life , bring diminished and twisted like this , aside . This narrative turns the heroes of Middle-earth , especially such as Aragorn in the 4th age who purged from orcs , into genocidal war criminals . And that obviously would never be Tolkien’s idea .
For all the garbage "adapting" of Tolkien this show has, I think the biggest insult is the fact that for the writers, timelines and/or distances do not exist from the time Isildur falls underneath a burning building, the Numenoreans have time to travel back to their ships, release Discount Brego, and sail all the way back to Numenor, meanwhile, discount Brego travels back OVER the mountains, finds the village, then finds Isildur in the cave. Unless the spiders were feeding/giving water to Isildur while he was presumably unconscious this entire time, the dude should be dead from dehydration alone. Side note; I'm surprised Galadriel didn't tell the Numenoreans 'just kick the orcs onto a broken tree branch' to kill them, especially since fighting is in the feet. So much easier than the whole 'stab, twist, gut' nonsense
Sooooo... Before Michael and I started recording, I said, "Isn't the name Berek from somewhere in The Histories or Unfinished Tales". Looked it up and saw how WRONG I was! 😂 Read Thomas Covenant a long time ago... but I read it after trying out Terry Brooks, so maybe that's why I don't think too ill of it. And I still love the name Saltheart Foamfollower!
The letter quoted by Little Platoon is very interesting, but a slightly different take comes from another one of Tolkien's letters, number 153 _[Eru/God] gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them._ Here he has orcs not simply beasts, but a corrupted race of sentient beings, almost entirely corrupted by Morgoth
Again. Not bad ideas but insanely middle to low-brow executions. You COULD do a Sauron tragedy. But you'd have to go to the very begininng of the SA. And and and you'd need a genius to make it work. Costumes, production design, sound design. Everything has to be on point and they don't have shit except...Bear McCreary? Who i love but I've been so distracted by the show I havent even noticed the score. Using a Nazgul before he fell would be a much better idea instead of Sauron And you wanna do "think of the poor grunts sent to war?",,Dont do orcs. Do Easterlings or someone a bit more relatable. And if you DO use orcs. Get them out of the ghetto. Show us they've made something of themselves so we can relate a teeny bit. Just having an orc baby under some rags is stoooooopiddd
😂😂 I know it takes alot of time to discuss... Keep doing the long format... Just clip some of the episodes into smaller shorts is probably what some people want
Exactly, showrunners don't show any jewelry/gold-smithing or lapidary of the rings at all! Shown are the extravagantly long molten ore channels that would see the liquid metals cool and harden long before they even reach a mold. Sauron was happy for Shelob to feed on Orc's at will. LOTR. T.T. Ch.9 'Shelob's Lair' "And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised. And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them."
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Can't wait for them to show us an orc family eating a human family while they correct the young orcs table manners
"No, Scatrat! Don't use a fork and knife. Use your hands like a GOOD orc!"
Elbows off the table maggot 😂 we are orcs not beasts
“And how many times have I told you to CHEW WITH YOUR MOUTH OPEN!
Children in Rhun are hungry, eat your brains.
@timvyfvinkel4542 "elbows off the table, maggot! We are orcs, not beasts"
I am enjoying these longer reviews. There is so much to mock, correct, and laugh at.
We wiill continue to do it then!
@TheOneRingcom, please do its comedy
Length is not a problem, because you guys are legitimately reviewing a show that deserves to be called out for its awfulness. Thank you for having a sense of humor about it. Your laughter is infectious.
You should check out The Little Platoon, he posted a 14 hour review of the Acolyte about a week ago. I haven't watched any Rings of Power episodes, but I watched a dozen youtubers tear each episode apart.
What do you mean by legitimately reviewing?
Gentlemen, don't change a thing.
Here here!!
Agree❤
Yep
Michael is 100% right with his reference to the Orcs at Cirith Ungol. I'll bet that is what these inept Showrunners would cite as reasoning for "humanising" the Orcs. However, even in that passage from the book (The Choices of Master Samwise, The Two Towers), it's clear that what the Orcs desire is to get some distance from the Nazgul is so that they can go and plunder on their own. They do not give any indication that they are morally repulsed by anything - they simply do not have the capacity for that level of moral introspection. It's simply a base desire to be free of orders so they can pillage on their own.
What RoP is doing with this storyline is completely ludicrous but the whole thing is just absurd. Personally, I am beginning to think its all a spoof...Anyway, no more for me. I'll just confine myself to watching the RUclips reviews. Much more entertaining and I'll not have to shell out for a new TV after putting my foot through it following yet another insane plot device that crash lands into another episode.
Orcs are like genetic psychopaths. They can have momentary conversations if it serves their needs but the moment they feel any impulse it becomes the most important thing and they use violence to solve their impulses...hence why Shagrat and Gorbag end up fighting because of a shiny shirt. It is fine to pity a psychopath that has no control over their impulses, and are basically so immoral that they are animalistic in nature, but you wouldn't have sympathy or understanding of such a thing. Gandalf pitied all of Sauron's slaves, but would also kill them if need be.
Its policy now in most shows not to totally demonise the antagonist , they can't be just evil , they must be relatable , doesn't matter Orc's are basically servants bound by Morgath are basically demons incapable of ever doing good , they must be sympathetic with chance of Redemption for modern audencies , dumbest thing is they have the Orcs living in absolute sqular and filth , they are dirty , sloven , lethargic not really great with english accents but i beleive urban southern working class accents , accents in this thing bother me anyway , hilarious and cringe at the same time , but the Orc's are loving parents , family orientated , even the wildests of beasts keep their dens clean for their young , whats the excuse for the filth , the mannerisims , they are servants of Morgoth , corrupted and pure evil , not working class chavs , lumbered with a tyrant boss and crappy union representation .
Truly enjoy the in-depth review and comparison to the Lore.
So many people will take RoP at face value instead of going back to read the books.
You guys are thorough, do not shorten anything! This show takes a lot of time to digest.
Yes long reviews are great! I need someone who knows the depths of the lore better than me to help me process all the internal dismay that I experience when watching RoP. This is good therapy!
I don't mind a longer podcast, I like to hear all your thoughts so I don't think you need to shorten your analysis.
Always a pleasure, gentlemen 😊
Longform reviews are the best. Everything is covered and nothing is left out. Keep at it!✨👌🏻
Thank you! Will do!
Yes! I've never clicked a video faster! And tomorrow we got ep4! Can't wait!! Your ROP videos are my favorite thing these days!
You made my day. 😀
The showrunners confirmed that the spider WAS baby Shelob btw🤣
Yep so did the actor
🙄 Good grief.... Well, they didn't say it in the show (so far).
@@TheOneRingcomanother mystery box!
@@TheOneRingcomapparently Shelob in Peter Jackson’s movie has a scarred eye, which (according to the ROP) she got from Isildur 🤦🏻♂️
@@Br4dSp34dIt's strange how Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is off limits, they have no rights to it at all, but they keep trying desperately to tie their god awful show to the films.
Your longer reviews are the best!! I watch other channels too but yours is the most Tolkien focused and you often make such great points about the lore I didn’t even consider. Love your channel! You’re true Tolkien fans!
Thank you!!! Appreciate you watching. :)
The dead marshes weren’t dead yet! The War of the Last Alliance hasn’t occurred yet! Asinine!!
Also don't forget the evil forest the Orcs say no-one comes out alive from, in Mordor which has only just been created, and which Men have been living in for hundreds of years when it was the Southlands. Just makes no sense whatsoever.
I've only watched reviews on this sad excuse for a Tolkein show but another thing I'm not understanding is there seems to be mentions of ruins of Numemorian origins? At this time there also shouldn't be any ruined Numenorian cities. This is supposed to be the height of their power lol
@@bponist The mistake you made was expecting anything in this sad excuse of a show to make sense.
@@terrystewart1973 lol fair enough
Considering that Tazmanian Devil pups fight, biting and clawing at each other before they can walk or even see, I can only imagine how savage orc babies are. I can't imagine them having family units since I always imagined Tolkien's orcs being similar to army ants. Just a swarming mass out to overwhelm and subjugate believing that everything is meant to be consumed or meant to provide for them.
Guys, I really like your long reviews. Keep them coming!
.what you don’t understand is, the reason Celebrimbor doesn’t forge anything is because he’s the “Assistant to the Regional Manager”, his job is to supervise his staff.
I enjoy the long reviews! If people think they’re too long, there’s a million channels making shorter ones. Yours are so much more informative and have so much depth.
I was repulsed by that scene. It was truly obscene. I'm glad Tolkien isn't alive to see this perversion of his work.
He'd probably think it was a useful example of exactly how not to write... or think about anything.
Well, he wouldn't have allowed it. Neither would Christopher.
@@creepingdread88 don't know about the "not allowed" part... Tolkien has sold rights to very pathetic theater shows multiple times to create at least some revenue for his family back in the time...
What I imagine about orcs mating etc is probably something like some wild animals. Not much nurturing going on except instinct. They'd have fast pregnancies with usually more than one infants. Few would survive but they'd have dozens of babies in their lifetime. The few that would survive they'd grow up feral and tortured with no sense of family. The little loving nuclear orc family was ridiculous. BTW
I only recently learned that Tolkien wrote them to procreate. I thought they were created by dark magic from dirt like it was shown in the movies and in the BfME games haha. 😂😂
I assumed they reproduced in filthy nests like insects. The less imagined the better.
Any writer involved with this show doesn't deserve to be called a writer.
oh noooo.... hundreds of Chimps with their type writers in the Amazon-basements are sad now... 😂😂😂
The Orcs are my favourite characters in Middle Earth. They’re endlessly relatable: evil, bloodthirsty, relentless, cannibalistic, humorously suicidal, they love battle, they want to wipe out all humans and they’re overall just a great time to watch every time they’re on screen. This… is a travesty on all levels
You are 100% right.
To reiterate what I said in ep 1 or 2, I live for in-depth reviews.
Short reviews are more for deciding if one as a third party would watch the show or movie. In-depth or Longman reviews are more valid imo.
👍
Your reviews are fine. Longer the better
guys your points are so accurate . i found it better than any other main lotr channel .thank you
I love these longer form reviews, keep it up guys
You episode reviews are the best, and most in-depth on RUclips. Don't change, stay true to Tolkien
The reviews are just great as they are. I learn so much - and have lots of fun!
I believe in the entertainment industry, this kind of idiocy is often referred as a "jumping the shark" moment .😂
I am telling you guys, if people got together and made a low budget spoof movie on the ROP, that could get more viewership than the actual show. That could single handily bring back the parody comedy genre.
The eagle landed in nest and said to his wife:
- Hello Love
- Hello husbend, how was your trip?
- It was good, the grandma is fine i brought her wat you asked me, but something strange has happened
- What was that my love?
- When i was flying over Numenor Empire i saw a big tower, i was a little tired so i sit on the top of it, what occurred there were humans there, a lot of them,
they started to chant Farazon or Pharazon i dont know, and the one guy took a sword. I was thinking of saying that i'm traveling to my sick grandmother but then i got scared and flew away.
- Those Numenoreans are weird
- Indeed they are.
The issue these writers have is that they don't have a true understanding of Evil (with a capital E). As you point out, Evil is built into the Orcs not in a facile "they're bad just because" way, but because of the profound malign influence of an evil subcreator in Morgoth.
Folk often understandably get anxious around the idea of "evil races" because of real history, but they're looking in the wrong direction. Folk think the Orcs are caricatures of "barbarous" non-white peoples (not helped by some uncharacteristically poorly-chosen words from Tolkien himself), & making simplistic West=Europe & East=Asia allusions. But the Cirith Ungol chapter proves that the real Orcs are much closer to home.
Orcs are not like human religious/ethnic groups who have been monstered & othered by the West: Orcs are the ones who dehumanise, oppress, & exterminate those peoples. The cruelty & hatred in their being is externalised, transforming them into horrors.
Orcs aren't Jews, or Arabs, or Africans - they're the Nazis, Stalin's Communists, the Khmer Rouge, Al Quada, and all those supposed "People's Parties". They are the monsters people become when hatred engulfs their souls.
Theoden even refers to the Orcs ways in the films as “Reckless hate”
Orcs are Africans. 100%
Is the horse going to be shadowfax ancestor?
I like your long reviews!
This is more entertaining an hour than the Rings of Power... so honestly, thank you Amazon, without you we wouldn't get such amazingly entertaining content.
Wow, I read something about orc families in one of my LOTR Groups and I just thought someone was joking around at the idea. But... I never.. everrrr .. considered that ROP actually made orc families.
The 3 Elvish rings were made without anything from Anatar/Sauron. Right?
Correct, though a bit incomplete. Celebrimbor forged them without Sauron, and Sauron never touched them. However, Celebrimbor did forge them using Sauron's teachings.
Tar Miriel would have become Queen, Pharazôn forced her into marriage and crowned himself King basically.
Affordable health care for orcs!
This show has the same problems The Acolyte had: close/medium shots where there should be wide establishing shots to show the epicness of the environment. Contrast this with HOTD - that show knew what they were doing. Its why this show looks so cheap - it’s how you would shoot something if you didn’t have enough extras, and couldn’t get a shooting permit. For a show with this budget, it’s inexcusable, and shows the utter lack of professionalism from the director of photography and the director - both of which I guarantee were hired for their lady-parts.
Putting aside ROP itself; is anyone else disheartened by the fact that every major studio is full of CW levels of competency and creativity? I don’t see how things will improve if the industry is full of bad writers.
This show is an AU Fanfic that Eru Illuvitar is looking from his place and says “well thank me that didn’t happen that way”
I appreciate the thoroughness of your analysis - And I’ve never read the books! But I’m learning a lot just listening to you guys - keep these long!
guys we're used to every podcast being 3 hours long, 1 hour is nothing!
i love that your videos are long and detailed , i like hearing all the things you have to say, even the rants, cause I rant about the same things you guys do :)
I really watch all your videos and enjoy , don't cut it short , an hour of you is more worthy than the whole show ❤️👍💥
11:00 Well made point here. Just because we are told that goblins/orcs "breed" or "multiply" in profusion does not automatically at all mean that sexual reproduction has to be involved; in fact to assume that it must, shows a depressing lack of imagination (something Tolkien would have despaired of in any student of his). Germs and bacteria breed and multiply; it doesn't involve sexual reproduction.
Yes, and I think a key point is their reproduction doesn't involve love.
Orcs. Tolkien's noble savage.
😂
the funny thing is, there are plenty of anime and manga fantasy that have done this with orc and goblins, so its not new concept, but it does not fit within Tolkiens world.
The fact that they can't us sympathize with the elves and humans but they want us to feel for the orcs is pure genious.....
Tolkien did write a scene with orcs talking about getting a cottage, away from the whips of the evil masters, although they also talked about hopefully it's close to where they could have great plunders as well. I still love your videos, and I'm a free loader.
This is a mischaracterization of the passage. Never do they even mention a dwelling of any kind. They just want to be chaotic evil instead of serving lawful evil. The place to loot on their own is not a "hopeful" prospect, the priority is to get away from the big bosses and loot first and foremost. No cottages here.
While mocking you are also teaching the correct lore which is great
"a conflagration known as a dumpster fire".
Bingo! We have Bingo.
3:13 Yes, Orcs reproduce like any other race, be it Elves, Men or Dwarves. I'm seeing an awful lot of misguided backlash against Rings of Power that claim the lore is that there are only male elves, and they reproduce as in the Jackson films, out of mud. I'm not defending what Rings of Power have done by any means, as it's difficult/impossible to imagine anything like a loving family unit of Orcs. You can imagine young orcs being culled to kill off any weak ones, to breed the most savage evil Orcs possible. They are an evil race, and if they have families (for example Bolg son of Azog implies they do), they will be evil families.
I think you mean "male orcs"
As I have heard, Tolkein once mentioned there'd "have" to be female orcs, but its not something he wanted to get too into.
The backlash against RoP is justified, but some people admittedly are getting the lore wrong because they're primarily thinking about the films, or misremembering what the books actually stated. Tbf, this particular issue might not have been brought up in LOTR specifically.
@@JaidynReiman Yes, you are of course right. And yes, it's coming from the films, and is a good illustration of how silly things from the movies bleed into how people believe Tolkien thought about his creation
Yes, you're right. Those who say no orc females exist are wrong. It's in a letter and, imo, makes sense due to many of the later thoughts he had on orc origins that Christopher published. However I would personally say the movie-goer misconception is more mired in complexity and uncertainty and FAR less idiotic than portraying a loving downtrodden blue collar orc family yearning to live peacefully. The incessant need to couch evil as just misunderstood wears thin... and to boot the scene was written and portrayed very poorly. It's an all 'round 0/10 imo. For me the backlash, even if not fully informed, is not only warranted but welcomed.
@@JaidynReiman "I think you mean "male orcs" " Or maybe mail orcs? I mean... surely they have post too?
@@niklbauglir Yes, the backlash is well intentioned, but it's just wrong, and undermines the claims by those who do stuff like this that they are defending what Tolkien wrote. Because Orcs created from the mud, and only male orcs existing, is not what Tolkien wrote.
@44:41 BOOM BOOM BOOM LOL, I shouldn't be watching this during work hours. Literally laughed out loud there.
Prefer the longer reviews as there is so much to dissect in what's supposed to be a Tolkien adaptation. Please continue them as I find them more engaging than the show itself at this point.
I wanted to say something about Cirdan looking like a pensioner, continuing the trend of RoP projecting human traits onto immortal elves, but after watching the whole "peacefull orc family" scene and the forging of the rings (if by "forging" we can describe tossing a piece of metal into a bowl, like a turd drops in a toilet) it seems pointless.
PS: did the show imply that Ulmo stoped Cirdan from forging...sorry, meant "tossing" the rings in the "deepest point of the ocean" (which happens to be 200metres from the coast)? Or was this the writers' idea of a payoff to the whole "the sea is always right" thing from the first season?
Orc families and exploding palentiri could it get any worse?😂
That was the cringiest thing ever. Not seeing obvious orc females is part of the mystery imo. Or if they just had to do female orcs at least make it cool. I would imagine them as being almost like the males in personality , I certainly don't want to see them making weird sniffing gestures at a prop doll, also the orc dad seemed cross eyed.
On the contrary your reviews are not too long I personally enjoy the long back and forth discussions. Don’t truncate it.
Worms like soil, crocodiles like swamps, vultures like roadkill. They don't pine after a cottage by the sea any more than orcs.
Cannot disagree more with this video! The reviews are too short, please take more time. Love your perspectives, honest and genuine, thank you gents for safeguarding the truth of Tolkien's lore. Count yourselves as members of the Faithful, the Kings men (ROP fans), may seem loudest, but they will not prevail.
49:20 great summary- "Ugh, You guys aren't worth it, see ya later" by great eagle
Never mind the RoP. You two are hilarious.
Oh wow, that was quick work on that map. It already shows Orodruin!
Also , wanna point out while in SIL the official version is that Ar-Pharazon usurped the throne . Later Christopher uncovers later drafts from JRR that expand more on Numenor and that particular situation . Where Phrazon is described as the most beautiful among Men and that Miriel was seduced by his beauty , so despite of the forbidden for the Numenorians to wed anyone closer than 2nd cousin ( he is her first cousin ). She agrees willingly to wed him.
The most beautiful human male was Ar-Pharazonaccording to Tolkien in HoMe I believe it was in vol12.
And let’s not forget royal Numenorians ( even as removed in time as Aragorn ) had no facial hair , because of their grand sire bring of half elven origins .
And ofc their height and majesty and we se nothing of the sort here .
Don’t listen to the haters; the long reviews mocking everything stupid in this abomination is exactly what I want to see!
Keep the in depth reviews coming! 😃
The most egregious misunderstanding is still this:
*Elrond: Without it, my kind must either abandon these shores by spring, or perish.
*Durin: Perish? Perish how?
*Elrond: _Our immortal souls will dwindle into nothing,_ slowly diminishing, until we are but shadows, swept away by the tides of time. Forever.
(Also, that Orc quote is not from a Letter, it is from Morgoth's Ring)
The fucking “Orc ambitions…. “ line had me dying…. Stupid show runners trying to use allegories again… Tolkien didn’t use allegories. Such blasphemy!!!!
LONG REVIEWS!! I listen to them when I'm doing dishes or playing videogames. I hope you keep doing what you're doing. Maybe you could timestamp the review and at the end have a sort of 'sum up' bit that the short attention span people could fast forward to. I enjoy longer format reviews as they give me something to listen to during the long work day.
I've watched two of your videos tonight, and yes they are long but you leave nothing out so please keep them as they are.
I missed the Orc wife and baby because they just didn't look like a family to me btw.
These are run an informative.
I did ask a bit ago for other channels to watch and got good responses from y’all. Thank you!
Has anyone watched Tolkien Untangled ? He’s got fun, and intense, “how’d I make a second age tv series,” and wonder if anyone else has listened to them? Anyone who does listen to this fella, thoughts?
Yeah I don't think they mentioned it in the episode as shelob but I think people will go off the interview with maxim baldry where he said he saw in the script he wakes in a spider lair and he thought its shelob.
This show, ROP, plagiarizes so much from Peter Jackson's movies, just in the 2nd Age
I had so many questions about the spider scene in addition to those Michael asked. How did the orc opposite Isildur suddenly get free? Was he already loose, and he just decided to keep hanging there to have a nap? Why did he attack Isildur instead of running to save himself? Why did all the spider silk both were covered in disappear completely between one scene and the next?
The “member” references are cracking me up 😂😂😂
18:00 producers have since said that yes it is in fact young LOR Spider. You're not allowed to have any breaks. Consume.
The mithril plop bit had me going
With regard to the comment about so few surviving the pyroclastic flow, remember that in the Two Towers, when Theoden, Legolas and Gimli got back to Helms Deep after the ambush, Eowyn commented by saying:
"'So few, so few have come..."
Then Gimli tells her that Aragorn fell.
So that's where that dialogue comes from, the PeterJackson movies. Member berries again. 🙄
I have to say that orc scene was pretty funny hahaha, is so sad that we wated so much to see anything LOTR again and Amazon makes this shite.
After wondering how Celebrimbor doesn’t recognize Halbarad for months and then realizing he does in fact know who he is, I’m very concerned about what the answer is to how they are going to do both Pharazon’s fall with Sauron and Sauron’s fall in a besieged Mordor at the same time. I’m guessing the show won’t make it that far tho 🤷♂️
I’m glad others address the orc issue . I honestly feel like I’m the sole person at least on fb to feel this is the worst breach of anything resembling lore , ROP could do.
And I am really not out to hate on ROP and its ( quite devoted ) fans . But this pollutes the lore in a way , that it’s twisting Tolkien’s words to pretend this nonsense is “ what Tolkien wanted “ as it’s quite the opposite .
And it’s spread on fb mainstream pages who pose as “ lore pages “. So, the last time I pointed the orc issue out , I actually got banned in one of them .
But the complete disregard of the complexity of the orc issue Tolkien faced his entire life , bring diminished and twisted like this , aside . This narrative turns the heroes of Middle-earth , especially such as Aragorn in the 4th age who purged from orcs , into genocidal war criminals . And that obviously would never be Tolkien’s idea .
Reviews like this have made it so I’ve never had to watch RoP, but I’ve enjoyed it immensely.
Good review
How to romance a female Orc ,that's the movie I would want to see.
it's not about the fact that they think we're stupid, it's just that they are stupid))
28:46 Don Lemonlas doesn't blame morgoth😂?? what??
As much I love to lisen you, I have two children, and they "dont share power" 😂
So, at lest 15 min shorter
For all the garbage "adapting" of Tolkien this show has, I think the biggest insult is the fact that for the writers, timelines and/or distances do not exist
from the time Isildur falls underneath a burning building, the Numenoreans have time to travel back to their ships, release Discount Brego, and sail all the way back to Numenor, meanwhile, discount Brego travels back OVER the mountains, finds the village, then finds Isildur in the cave.
Unless the spiders were feeding/giving water to Isildur while he was presumably unconscious this entire time, the dude should be dead from dehydration alone. Side note; I'm surprised Galadriel didn't tell the Numenoreans 'just kick the orcs onto a broken tree branch' to kill them, especially since fighting is in the feet. So much easier than the whole 'stab, twist, gut' nonsense
I for one foresee dental work expansion in Mordor and maybe Samaritans could pop in .
Wow, the "Longman Bad" argument is starting to hit people other than Mauler...
Celebrimbor casting was horrible. And old grandma that only wears evening dresses
When I hear the name Berek I think of the Thomas Covenant series and Lord-Fatherer Berek Halfhand. (dodges random object tossed in my direction)
Sooooo... Before Michael and I started recording, I said, "Isn't the name Berek from somewhere in The Histories or Unfinished Tales". Looked it up and saw how WRONG I was! 😂
Read Thomas Covenant a long time ago... but I read it after trying out Terry Brooks, so maybe that's why I don't think too ill of it.
And I still love the name Saltheart Foamfollower!
You mean when the orcs created the peaceful utopia in the mines of moria
The letter quoted by Little Platoon is very interesting, but a slightly different take comes from another one of Tolkien's letters, number 153
_[Eru/God] gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation. Of course within limits, and of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions. But if they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational' creatures like Elves or Men. They would at least 'be' real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them._
Here he has orcs not simply beasts, but a corrupted race of sentient beings, almost entirely corrupted by Morgoth
Nice! I haven't read through those for a long time and I'd forgotten this one.
@@niklbauglir I recommend the new expanded volume of Tolkien's letters, if you haven't read them in a while.
Again. Not bad ideas but insanely middle to low-brow executions. You COULD do a Sauron tragedy. But you'd have to go to the very begininng of the SA. And and and you'd need a genius to make it work. Costumes, production design, sound design. Everything has to be on point and they don't have shit except...Bear McCreary? Who i love but I've been so distracted by the show I havent even noticed the score.
Using a Nazgul before he fell would be a much better idea instead of Sauron
And you wanna do "think of the poor grunts sent to war?",,Dont do orcs. Do Easterlings or someone a bit more relatable. And if you DO use orcs. Get them out of the ghetto. Show us they've made something of themselves so we can relate a teeny bit. Just having an orc baby under some rags is stoooooopiddd
😂😂 I know it takes alot of time to discuss...
Keep doing the long format...
Just clip some of the episodes into smaller shorts is probably what some people want
Exactly, showrunners don't show any jewelry/gold-smithing or lapidary of the rings at all! Shown are the extravagantly long molten ore channels that would see the liquid metals cool and harden long before they even reach a mold. Sauron was happy for Shelob to feed on Orc's at will. LOTR. T.T. Ch.9 'Shelob's Lair' "And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised. And Orcs, they were useful slaves, but he had them in plenty. If now and again Shelob caught them to stay her appetite, she was welcome: he could spare them."
Loove the long reviews!!! Don't try to make it faster :D