"The enemy has returned." Very important lesson to b learned from this. Evil will always come back. In one form or another. Recognizing it is vital but standing against it is where real courage comes from.
The impression I got from reading the Silmarillion a couple decades age was Tolkien's sense of limited creative powers. The greatest thing, could come only once. The Silmarils were a one time thing, the ability, the concentration, was one time. The way even Morgoth was described as spreading out his power in multiplying evil creatures, he weakened himself doing so and was even able to be wounded in single combat by an Eldar. It seems a fundamental design in Arda that ones greatness or energies should not be squandered as it is an end in and of itself.
It's a cold Sunday evening here. Snow is forecast in the next few days for the first time this winter. It's time to settle down with Yoystan and a hot chocolate. 😊😊❤❤❤😊😊
@@johnstracI think it’s being asked if Pharazon killed Sauron’s body. I bet it would have had a similar result as what happened a few decades later with the War of the Last Alliance
Imagine how humiliating it must have been for Sauron to owe his life to a dog and an elf. The thought must have filled him with rage long after the destruction of the One Ring.
I like to think that the reason Sauron always kept an eye on the orcs was not so that they would not speak his name, but so that none of them would laugh at the incident with Huan behind his back.😂
In one of Tolkien's letters he specifically addresses the question about the ring in Númenor. He said that Sauron indeed had it with him. The ring exists in the wraith world, as well as the physical, so his spirit was able to take it back to ME with it.
Love that Sauron appears at the beginning of the "Nightfall in Middle-Earth" album, warning Morgoth about his upcoming defeat during the War of the Wrath. It was a pretty cool way to fix Sauron's abscence from the Beren & Luthien tale until the Second Age
Yoystan, would you please explain why you think Sauron was so incredibly physical weak in the 3rd Age once he was able to take a form again? I don't recall reading anything that suggested he was so terribly weak at that point, at least not by the later parts of the 3rd Age.
The concept of death defined for incarnates (Children of Ilúvatar: "Elves and Men" and Dwarves) is the separation of the "soul or spirit" (fëa) from the "body" (hröa). This concept is also valid for the Ainur, who prefer to realize their existence in incarnate form. What is important here for the Ainur is the concept of "divine death". In the case of Sauron, the destruction of the One Ring and his loss of the will to reincarnate and his inability to interact with the elements of Arda can be described as divine death.
Is Sauron truly Dead or just Resting?!!! Only time will tell, if the One Ring in Mount Doom did or didn’t kill him!!! Thanks Mellon for an Intriguing Video tying together Sauron's Shape Shifting and Many Deaths being unable to do these again, Until a Remake of the Angmar Wars...Marion Baggins Out!!!
So both Frodo and Sauron had nine fingers, both lost one from having the One Ring on the digit. Gandalf was MORE powerful after coming back from the Halls of Mandos when he fought Durin's Bane as opposed to Sauron being weakened. I suppose it was because Olorin had the favor of the Valar.
Gandalf was sent back by Ilúvatar; he never went to the Halls of Mandos. Ilúvatar restored many, perhaps all, of the abilities Gandalf had before he was sent to Middle-Earth as one of the Istari, who were deliberately weakened by the Valar before they left Valinor.
My guess, Sauron left the ring in Mordor. He didn't "need" it, once it was forged, but certainly would have been less powerful when not wearing it. Considering he went to Numenor willingly, he clearly thought he wouldn't need all the immense power of his being. He wasn't going into combat or even a battle of magic. In fact, when he surrendered there wasn't anyone on Numenor who could defeat him anyway. But I remember Tolkien somewhere commenting on the ring being transported back from Numenor wouldn't be a problem for a fallen angel anyway. I'm not sure if even Tolkien knew.
Tolkien clearly and explicitly states in one of his letters that Sauron had the ring with him when he went to Numenor. Fan-fiction and theories aside, what the author/creator of a universe says is canon, and that is what Tolkien said.
I think thst the implications of that is that his spirit attempted to return to Valinor but the Ainur rejected him and cast him out, leaving his spirit floating around middle earth forever (or until he learned humility and forgiveness or something that would let him return)
This was one of the elements that confused me the most about LoTR. Sauron could just walk off utter destruction without consequence, and the one time his destruction had any consequence left him with his full power.
Im pretty sure it's mentioned/implied one or two times that they couldn't use their full maiar powers and where set to one form. I can't remember the books and passages tho, sry ):
I think Sauron might have lost his power of appearing fair because he had put so much of his power into the One RIng. Sauron had the power to disguise himself and hide his intentions to fool people, the Ring gave its wearer the ability to turn nearly invisible, a lesser variation of his disguising powers. He retained his powers at first, but nearly being drowned drained much of his remaining power. In some ways, what was left of Sauron was a shadow of his full power. Sauron was the first, arguably greatest, Ring wraith, completely dependent on his Ring just to continue to exist in Arda. Just like the Ring wraiths gave up their wills, their humanity, to gain the power of their rings, Sauron gave up his full power to forge the Ring. I just realised, after the fall of Numenor, Sauron wasn't actually powerful anymore. He had his armies of orcs and evil men (only loyal out of fear), the Ring wraiths who had no free will of their own, and the legend of his power. All of Sauron's power was illusion, and a very fragile illusion at that. As soon as the free peoples stood up to him, his power started to crumble.
I don't dislike it, but I often wish I better understood why these "deaths" cost Sauron anything? Why was that a quality Eru Illuvatar ever gave them, apart from, even in the beginning, He knew Mairon would turn heel, and so set it up before "Sauron" even existed, which means Sauron was bad "by design", and makes him slightly less terrible. The Ainur SEEMED to ve able to drop forms, and shift between physical, and spiritual states fluidly, so I don't see why Sauron "dying" should be any worse than him assuming any form, such as his protean wolf to snake to bat, other than Tolkien decided that there had to be a cost for SAURON to be bad, but then di other Ainur suffer this? Was Gothmog,vor Durin's Bane, screwed after but a single death? These are celestial beings, briefly just donning flesh to better interact with their world, as is their role as builders of it, so why, and then if Eru Illuvatar punished Sauron, for Numenor, then He kindly fell short, allowing other things to happen, to His design. I'm just bitching for the sake of it, I know, but it always catches Mr up, as no other Ainur seems, even by accident, to ever be injured, and then I'd assume, them still being in good standing, they'd just be rejuvenated, like Gandalf was.
My guess. And only a guess, is that fallen beings like Sauron, Saruman and balrogs were no longer able to feed off of the light and power of the Valar once they left for middle earth. So like a car a thousand miles from a mechanic, if you break down, you're pretty much screwed to a DIY job at the side of the road. Sometimes the repairs take a long time, and sometimes you just don't have the skill to "fix" it at all. And multiple repairs will always leave legacies of problems. Gandalf on the other hand was able to go back to the shop and get a super charge with additional turbo boosters. That's my thinking.
The ainur are not omnipotent. Creating forms and dissipating their power diminishes them. As far as specifics, it would have been nice if Tolkien had more consistent explanations.
So did Sauron get "more powerful" between him losing the ring and the ring being destroyed? If so, does that mean he could continue to "gain power" in the fourth age too? If not, then why did he "do nothing" for most of that time (and what changed, if he himself didn't change)?
I think of the RIng as similar to a hoarcrux: it contains part of his life essence. As long as the Ring continues to exist, he might be slightly weakened when it's not in his possession, but if it's destroyed, that's part of his very essence destroyed, so it affects him much more deeply. As long as the Ring is still in Middle Earth, his spirit is still bound to Middle Earth; once it's gone, he's gone.
Wasn't there a letter written that says Sauron was still the mightiest being in Middle Earth without the One Ring? Gandalf even admitted he was lesser as the white and it was said that Lothlorien was unasailable aside from Sauron himself coming to fight. I still say he could beat anyone in Middle Earth one on one without the One Ring.
isn't the reason he was able to return after death was because the one ring? the Maiar are immoral beings, but their formes in Arda aren't. when Gandalf is killed, he only is revived because of the intervention of Eru Ilúvatar. when Saruman is killed...he lost his mortal form forever, either he retunes to the Timeless Void, or is a formless spirit just like Sauron after he lost the ring. Sauron immortality is clearly tied to the ring.
Is it true that Tolkien explained that Sauron had the ring with him when Numenor was destroyed and that his spirit carried it away with him? This makes no sense. The ring should have been dragged into the depths of the ocean along with the entire island. Tolkien could have explained that the ring was kept with the Nazgûl when Sauron allowed himself to be taken prisoner.
Yes. Tolkien explicitly states in one of his letters that Sauron had the ring with him when he was taken to Numenor. He got the ring back...because he just did, somehow. I agree that the mechanics as Tolkien elucidated them are murky and unsatisfactory from a logical point of view, but there it is. He had the ring in Numenor.
I dont see how he could have transported the ring back to mordor from the drowning at numenor! I think he would have to assume when surrendering to the golden king he would leave everything else behind for he would strip prisoners of everything when he took them and smart enttiy would thinking maybe the king new about the ring
There are examples in contemporary ghost stories and the like of spirits being able to affect physical objects. Here we have the spirit of Sauron, a powerful Maia, being able to move a small object, the One Ring. This object also has a strong connection to Sauron because Sauron put so much of his power into the One Ring. I don't understand why people think this is a problem.
1. Way is it not, that Tolkin wanted a much darker story.... when u look at Silmarilion. Eru ho created evrything says: no one can chance my plans, and those ho try, will only bring forth things that are more beautiful then they can imagine. That dossent sound like what Melkor did. 2. Why is it when Melkor chanced something it was cruption, but when Menve and the other Valar chanced something, it was ok and a good thing eg Orcs and Ents. 3 its funny how when Sauron died he lost his power, but when Gandalf died he gaind power. All in all, when u look at all the facts Melkor and Sauron dosent semes to be evil and thous ho go agenst Eru's plan. (Free will is a bi-th. And the Valar wanted to rule evrything, eg tell the elfs what to do and think as they saw it.)
This is how they should have treated Palaptine if they had, had, had to bring him back. They didn't need to. At all. But if so..a disembodied vengeful spirit.
They should have just reworked the Dark Empire comics. You could have used new characters if they wanted but there was already a good outline for Palpatine trying to return and being vanquished for good. The whole trilogy suffered from the whiplash of directors and writers more than anything.
@cm275 I thought it would be cool if his evil force ghost was trying to / and succeeding to a degree/ possese Ben Solo. Pretending to be the spirit of Vader to get an open door.
I'm glad that Sauron even when shapeshifted he preserved his original gender,he took only male forms.This is how shapeshifters should be,do you hear that Loki?
"Somehow...Sauron returned" - Poe Dameron
😅
Money! 😂
Nah they explained Sauron's return on Fortnite :P
They fly now?
"The enemy has returned."
Very important lesson to b learned from this. Evil will always come back. In one form or another. Recognizing it is vital but standing against it is where real courage comes from.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he resurfaced as an executive producer at Amazon Prime Video
"Damn....had to respawn again. Good things I autosaved it in my ring''
The impression I got from reading the Silmarillion a couple decades age was Tolkien's sense of limited creative powers. The greatest thing, could come only once. The Silmarils were a one time thing, the ability, the concentration, was one time. The way even Morgoth was described as spreading out his power in multiplying evil creatures, he weakened himself doing so and was even able to be wounded in single combat by an Eldar. It seems a fundamental design in Arda that ones greatness or energies should not be squandered as it is an end in and of itself.
Indeed in the Third Age Sauron had a very weak form but it was enough to torture Gollum in the dungeons of Barad Dur.
It's a cold Sunday evening here. Snow is forecast in the next few days for the first time this winter. It's time to settle down with Yoystan and a hot chocolate.
😊😊❤❤❤😊😊
Here is an interesting what if video: What if Ar-Pharazon killed Sauron instead of taking him prisoner?
Ar-Pharazon couldn't kill Sauron (as a Maia I'm sure that only Saurons physical shape could "die"), the whole capture thing was part of Sauron's plan.
@@johnstracI think it’s being asked if Pharazon killed Sauron’s body. I bet it would have had a similar result as what happened a few decades later with the War of the Last Alliance
Perhaps, but in some ways worse, since Numenor under Pharazon was not (yet) as dark as Mordor, it was still dark, and even mightier.
Literally uploaded a video on this topic tonight on my channel!
In my headcanon, the disembodied ghosts of Sauron and Saruman are arguing for all eternity, probably with other dead evil maia
Imagine how humiliating it must have been for Sauron to owe his life to a dog and an elf. The thought must have filled him with rage long after the destruction of the One Ring.
I like to think that the reason Sauron always kept an eye on the orcs was not so that they would not speak his name, but so that none of them would laugh at the incident with Huan behind his back.😂
Elves: how are you not dead? 🤨
Sauron: I have no idea!!! 😲
Aule: AUUUUUGGGGHHHH!!!! GIVE ME A BIG FAT BREAK!!!!! 😠😡🪓🪓
In one of Tolkien's letters he specifically addresses the question about the ring in Númenor. He said that Sauron indeed had it with him. The ring exists in the wraith world, as well as the physical, so his spirit was able to take it back to ME with it.
Love that Sauron appears at the beginning of the "Nightfall in Middle-Earth" album, warning Morgoth about his upcoming defeat during the War of the Wrath. It was a pretty cool way to fix Sauron's abscence from the Beren & Luthien tale until the Second Age
What is this album?
@@draleks9112The album is "Nightfall in Middle-Earth" by Blind Guardian. It is a power metal adaptation of the Silmarillion. It's very good.
Yoystan, would you please explain why you think Sauron was so incredibly physical weak in the 3rd Age once he was able to take a form again? I don't recall reading anything that suggested he was so terribly weak at that point, at least not by the later parts of the 3rd Age.
Same, I was very confused by this.
The concept of death defined for incarnates (Children of Ilúvatar: "Elves and Men" and Dwarves) is the separation of the "soul or spirit" (fëa) from the "body" (hröa). This concept is also valid for the Ainur, who prefer to realize their existence in incarnate form. What is important here for the Ainur is the concept of "divine death". In the case of Sauron, the destruction of the One Ring and his loss of the will to reincarnate and his inability to interact with the elements of Arda can be described as divine death.
Glad you are still making
LOTRO Videos!
Is Sauron truly Dead or just Resting?!!! Only time will tell, if the One Ring in Mount Doom did or didn’t kill him!!!
Thanks Mellon for an Intriguing Video tying together Sauron's Shape Shifting and Many Deaths being unable to do these again, Until a Remake of the Angmar Wars...Marion Baggins Out!!!
That Sauron sure was a REAL JERK!
Please do a video on the populations of the different races of middle earth
Wait, you're telling me Sauron didn't need to turn into Venom and eat people in order to reincarnate? Who would've guessed Amazon lied...
bro galadriel and sauron got it on you jus know from watchin rings of power
So both Frodo and Sauron had nine fingers, both lost one from having the One Ring on the digit.
Gandalf was MORE powerful after coming back from the Halls of Mandos when he fought Durin's Bane as opposed to Sauron being weakened. I suppose it was because Olorin had the favor of the Valar.
Gandalf was sent back by Ilúvatar; he never went to the Halls of Mandos. Ilúvatar restored many, perhaps all, of the abilities Gandalf had before he was sent to Middle-Earth as one of the Istari, who were deliberately weakened by the Valar before they left Valinor.
After the scouring of the shire Saruman’s spirit dispersed.
My guess, Sauron left the ring in Mordor.
He didn't "need" it, once it was forged, but certainly would have been less powerful when not wearing it. Considering he went to Numenor willingly, he clearly thought he wouldn't need all the immense power of his being. He wasn't going into combat or even a battle of magic. In fact, when he surrendered there wasn't anyone on Numenor who could defeat him anyway.
But I remember Tolkien somewhere commenting on the ring being transported back from Numenor wouldn't be a problem for a fallen angel anyway.
I'm not sure if even Tolkien knew.
Tolkien clearly and explicitly states in one of his letters that Sauron had the ring with him when he went to Numenor. Fan-fiction and theories aside, what the author/creator of a universe says is canon, and that is what Tolkien said.
He probably knew that the numenoreans would take it from him if they saw it. They were already greedy.
I think thst the implications of that is that his spirit attempted to return to Valinor but the Ainur rejected him and cast him out, leaving his spirit floating around middle earth forever (or until he learned humility and forgiveness or something that would let him return)
Rings of power has no shot at recreating the last battle of elves and men and the fight between gilglad elendil and Sauron. No chance
This was one of the elements that confused me the most about LoTR. Sauron could just walk off utter destruction without consequence, and the one time his destruction had any consequence left him with his full power.
I wonder if the Istari could have changed form as well or if they were restricted from that ability while they were in Middle Earth
Im pretty sure it's mentioned/implied one or two times that they couldn't use their full maiar powers and where set to one form. I can't remember the books and passages tho, sry ):
They were bound to the forms of old Men.
But what about when Adar stabbed him with Morgoth's crown and the orcs ganged up on him till he became black goo?
*insert J. Jonah Jameson laugh*
Could you imagine the ROP Gilgalad actually doing anything at all against the tolkien Sauron? He would get smoked
Horcruxes are knockoffs of the Rings of Power.
Change my Mind.
I think Sauron might have lost his power of appearing fair because he had put so much of his power into the One RIng. Sauron had the power to disguise himself and hide his intentions to fool people, the Ring gave its wearer the ability to turn nearly invisible, a lesser variation of his disguising powers. He retained his powers at first, but nearly being drowned drained much of his remaining power.
In some ways, what was left of Sauron was a shadow of his full power. Sauron was the first, arguably greatest, Ring wraith, completely dependent on his Ring just to continue to exist in Arda. Just like the Ring wraiths gave up their wills, their humanity, to gain the power of their rings, Sauron gave up his full power to forge the Ring.
I just realised, after the fall of Numenor, Sauron wasn't actually powerful anymore. He had his armies of orcs and evil men (only loyal out of fear), the Ring wraiths who had no free will of their own, and the legend of his power. All of Sauron's power was illusion, and a very fragile illusion at that. As soon as the free peoples stood up to him, his power started to crumble.
I don't dislike it, but I often wish I better understood why these "deaths" cost Sauron anything? Why was that a quality Eru Illuvatar ever gave them, apart from, even in the beginning, He knew Mairon would turn heel, and so set it up before "Sauron" even existed, which means Sauron was bad "by design", and makes him slightly less terrible. The Ainur SEEMED to ve able to drop forms, and shift between physical, and spiritual states fluidly, so I don't see why Sauron "dying" should be any worse than him assuming any form, such as his protean wolf to snake to bat, other than Tolkien decided that there had to be a cost for SAURON to be bad, but then di other Ainur suffer this? Was Gothmog,vor Durin's Bane, screwed after but a single death? These are celestial beings, briefly just donning flesh to better interact with their world, as is their role as builders of it, so why, and then if Eru Illuvatar punished Sauron, for Numenor, then He kindly fell short, allowing other things to happen, to His design. I'm just bitching for the sake of it, I know, but it always catches Mr up, as no other Ainur seems, even by accident, to ever be injured, and then I'd assume, them still being in good standing, they'd just be rejuvenated, like Gandalf was.
My guess. And only a guess, is that fallen beings like Sauron, Saruman and balrogs were no longer able to feed off of the light and power of the Valar once they left for middle earth.
So like a car a thousand miles from a mechanic, if you break down, you're pretty much screwed to a DIY job at the side of the road. Sometimes the repairs take a long time, and sometimes you just don't have the skill to "fix" it at all. And multiple repairs will always leave legacies of problems.
Gandalf on the other hand was able to go back to the shop and get a super charge with additional turbo boosters.
That's my thinking.
@@JackChurchill101 This is a great analogy and explanation!
The ainur are not omnipotent. Creating forms and dissipating their power diminishes them. As far as specifics, it would have been nice if Tolkien had more consistent explanations.
What happened to all the "slain" Balrogs, who were also Maiar?
So did Sauron get "more powerful" between him losing the ring and the ring being destroyed? If so, does that mean he could continue to "gain power" in the fourth age too? If not, then why did he "do nothing" for most of that time (and what changed, if he himself didn't change)?
I think of the RIng as similar to a hoarcrux: it contains part of his life essence. As long as the Ring continues to exist, he might be slightly weakened when it's not in his possession, but if it's destroyed, that's part of his very essence destroyed, so it affects him much more deeply. As long as the Ring is still in Middle Earth, his spirit is still bound to Middle Earth; once it's gone, he's gone.
What I asked myself allways is why he did not shapeshift into a bat or seagull during the downfall of Numenor to avoid ühysicall death
It probably happened so fast he had no chance
That catastrophe was too overwhelming for him to escape.
Wasn't there a letter written that says Sauron was still the mightiest being in Middle Earth without the One Ring? Gandalf even admitted he was lesser as the white and it was said that Lothlorien was unasailable aside from Sauron himself coming to fight. I still say he could beat anyone in Middle Earth one on one without the One Ring.
I think as an entity that’s true, but power and strength certainly aren’t always physical in the Legendarium.
In The Two Towers, Gandalf describes himself to Gimli as the second most dangerous being in Middle-Earth, behind only Sauron.
A lot of conjecture man.
isn't the reason he was able to return after death was because the one ring? the Maiar are immoral beings, but their formes in Arda aren't.
when Gandalf is killed, he only is revived because of the intervention of Eru Ilúvatar.
when Saruman is killed...he lost his mortal form forever, either he retunes to the Timeless Void, or is a formless spirit just like Sauron after he lost the ring.
Sauron immortality is clearly tied to the ring.
That's what I think. We never see any of the slain Balrogs return; we don't even know where they go when they are slain.
“9 fingered dark lord.” 😂
Is it true that Tolkien explained that Sauron had the ring with him when Numenor was destroyed and that his spirit carried it away with him? This makes no sense. The ring should have been dragged into the depths of the ocean along with the entire island. Tolkien could have explained that the ring was kept with the Nazgûl when Sauron allowed himself to be taken prisoner.
Yes. Tolkien explicitly states in one of his letters that Sauron had the ring with him when he was taken to Numenor. He got the ring back...because he just did, somehow. I agree that the mechanics as Tolkien elucidated them are murky and unsatisfactory from a logical point of view, but there it is. He had the ring in Numenor.
That is specifically what Tolkien explained in one his letters. You may not like it but this is the way Tolkien decided it would be.
More Lord Sauron!! Praise Him!
Breaking News: Maia too angry to die.
Heheheh
Like in some MMOs, once you respawn you lose XPs. 😂
As the Necromancer in Dol Guldor, did Sauron have a body or did the White Council go to fight a disembodied spirit?
By that time, Sauron was capable of taking a physical form. It's unclear, at least to me, if he was in one when the White Council attacked.
I dont see how he could have transported the ring back to mordor from the drowning at numenor! I think he would have to assume when surrendering to the golden king he would leave everything else behind for he would strip prisoners of everything when he took them and smart enttiy would thinking maybe the king new about the ring
There are examples in contemporary ghost stories and the like of spirits being able to affect physical objects. Here we have the spirit of Sauron, a powerful Maia, being able to move a small object, the One Ring. This object also has a strong connection to Sauron because Sauron put so much of his power into the One Ring. I don't understand why people think this is a problem.
what about Gandalf saying the dark lord is more powerful then him without being right
1. Way is it not, that Tolkin wanted a much darker story.... when u look at Silmarilion. Eru ho created evrything says: no one can chance my plans, and those ho try, will only bring forth things that are more beautiful then they can imagine. That dossent sound like what Melkor did. 2. Why is it when Melkor chanced something it was cruption, but when Menve and the other Valar chanced something, it was ok and a good thing eg Orcs and Ents. 3 its funny how when Sauron died he lost his power, but when Gandalf died he gaind power.
All in all, when u look at all the facts Melkor and Sauron dosent semes to be evil and thous ho go agenst Eru's plan. (Free will is a bi-th. And the Valar wanted to rule evrything, eg tell the elfs what to do and think as they saw it.)
This is how they should have treated Palaptine if they had, had, had to bring him back. They didn't need to. At all. But if so..a disembodied vengeful spirit.
They should have just reworked the Dark Empire comics. You could have used new characters if they wanted but there was already a good outline for Palpatine trying to return and being vanquished for good.
The whole trilogy suffered from the whiplash of directors and writers more than anything.
@cm275 I thought it would be cool if his evil force ghost was trying to / and succeeding to a degree/ possese Ben Solo. Pretending to be the spirit of Vader to get an open door.
They didn't have to. They just shot themselves in the foot when RJ killed off Snoke and made it worse by bringing Palpatine back.
🤠👍👍
Layers of evil.
In a physical sense yes he did die though
I'm glad that Sauron even when shapeshifted he preserved his original gender,he took only male forms.This is how shapeshifters should be,do you hear that Loki?
Boooo!
I suppose now you will be intermittently using the word 'LORE' on every video huh?
At least ROP Season 2 stay true to his abilities.
The Ring was a life insurance