When my dad read LOTR to me as a kid, he described the ring not as making one live longer, but making one die more slowly. This is why bilbo feels thin and stretched. Its not prolonging his life, its stretching out his death
That actually makes a lot of sense, in Tolkien’s world only Eru, the true divine being, can create life, Sauron’s master Melkor/Morgoth hated this and chose to pervert what life he could to make something of his own, orcs made from elves, but he could only alter, twist a life form already in existence, never truly create new life. So it stands to reason Sauron’s rings can’t give more life either, only prolong death.
"Butter scraped over too much bread" is such an excellent example of evocative writing, and is surpassingly beautiful in its simplicity and relatability.
I like how most people, average laymen, would probably say it more like "too little butter spread over a slice of bread" but Tolkien considers bread would most often be eaten in such a setting in small loaves rather than in slices. Little things like that make a world of difference in writing.
Another passage that might be cited is the one when Gollum almost repents. The narrator says that if any had seen him at that moment, they would have seen an ancient Hobbit, frail and weal. He was impossibly old for his kind, but the Ring kept him going.
The books say he loved long hikes and was out and about for days and weeks, and sometimes took Frodo with him. And they met Elves. That's why Frodo speaks Elvish and is educated about their culture and history. Bilbo never lost his sense for Adventure and lust for travelling
Even Gollum seems to understand this dimly. When he attacks Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mt. Doom and Frodo leaves him for Sam to deal with, Tolkien writes that Gollum says, “Don’t kill us,’ he wept. ‘Don’t hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We’re lost. And when Precious goes we’ll die, yes, die into the dust.’ He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. ‘Dusst!’ he hissed.” Apart from the psychological toll of having his addiction taken beyond where he can reach it, he seems to understand that his survival only lasts as long as the Ring. He literally can’t live without it, which adds another incentive for him to make a last-ditch effort to get it back from Frodo. Yes, Frodo cursed him to fall into the Cracks of Doom if he touched Frodo again, but if he’s going to die anyway…. And Gollum doesn’t have much concept of unselfishness that would allow him to accept sacrificing himself for the sake of a promise.
Honestly...when you think how fast the decades caught up with Bilbo... dying in the fires of Mount Doom was probably a better way to go, compared to what Gollum would have experienced
Gollum’s raw fish-based diet provides both high protein and omega-3 fatty acids. This explains his long lifespan, long health-span and perfect skin complexion!
I also believe that Bilbo was less affected because he didn't obsess over the ring as constantly like Gollum did. Picture 2 alcoholics, one that has a few shots scattered throughout the day, while the other is Nicholas Cage from Leaving Las Vegas
I mean, you're not wrong. The daily drinking alcoholic has withdrawals when he quits. The once a week binge drinking alcoholic does not (I was one for 8 years and when I quit I didn't have withdrawals like some of my friends did who weren't even alcoholics as long, they just had the bug worse than me and were drinking from wake up to sleepy time, not getting absolutely smashed once every 7 - 8 days to self-medicate their depression)
Listening to you tell the story with all the different voices and drawings makes me go back to the feeling of wonder I had listening to stories as a child.
The Ring seems to literally be like a magical corrupting drug. At first it makes the user more powerful and gifted but in time, even if it takes 100's of years, it eventually makes you more and more sickly and slavish until you're a wraith. One of worst parts of the Ring is that power and charm it bestows to the user seems to never become forgotten. Whoever has wielded it can't forget it's power, and they have a small (or very large in the case of Gollum) lust and yearning for it. It's only when it's destroyed does the psychological grip finally leave the Ringbearers. It wouldn't surprise me if Bilbo felt a huge weight lifted off his spirit at the time of the Ring's destruction, even though there was yet no news that it had been destroyed.
I'm envisioning frodo casually dropping the ring into the fire, Gollum standing there and watching. Soon as the ring melts, Gollum just turns into a poof of ash and bone.
My assumption is that he was in possession of the One Ring for so long that he got overloaded with longevity such that even 60 years later he still had some spare years left
It doesn't work like that. What the ring does is to slowly *devour* the owner and supply Sauron with more strength, not the other way around. They just die slowly as they are slowly turned into a wraith. That is true both for the 9 rings and to the one. And we know that Sauron devoured the Nine ring bearers to the extent we see there, nothing actually remains from their bodies and their souls but the slimmest shard.
@@Melanrick well, that doesn't help at all. but hang on, didn't Sauron take away the rings of power from the nazgul? and they kept on living. was it because they were stuck in the shadow world or were tied to Sauron directly?
@@blueshit199 Well, Sauron took the wraiths rings because A, there's nothing left to consume and corrupt. Their descent has been complete. They now relied on Sauron for everything and only listened to his whispers. And B because now he had the rings on his hands, he could better control them. Issue commands and give them a power up became easier plus, it would guarantee any thoughts of independence while Sauron is weakened. It's the guarantee that they would deliver the one ring. And they are kept alive by the one ring, same as the others, because once bound by it, that's it. The person is always bound to the ring and then Sauron.
Damn. It almost makes me glad that Gollum never fulfilled Frodo's hopes by redeeming himself. Frodo would have been so happy for the wretched old Hobbit, only for Gollum to die and turn to dust right after the One was destroyed.
In the case of redemption, I think Eru would have returned Gollum's physical state back to pre-Ring days and maybe his buddy Dëagol would be reembodied too.😁👍
@@colinbaldwin313 Gollum never gave us a chance to see what would have happened if he had had 180° change of character. I just think that in such a "what-if," Eru Iluvatar would find a way to make that redemption meaningful. Maybe the redeemed Gollum wrestles the Ring from Frodo and falls into the fiery lava. He died a hero. 😁👍✝️
Hobbits being, according to Tolkien, a variety of Men, a redeemed Gollum who promptly died when the ring was destroyed would have left the circles of the world, as would the actual Gollum who fell in to the lava. One could speculate that a redeemed version would have found his destination pleasant.
Interesting. I had never given the issue much thought before but your thoughts make a lot of sense. And it fits with Tolkien's overarching belief. Also of note of course that Bilbo after giving up the Ring spent seventeen years, or the bulk of it, in Rivendell, a healthy, open air kind of place, where Gollum spent it lurking in underground lakes among the mountains. The Ring prolonged their lives but the look of them was probably due to the environment.
There are more factors involved in making Gollum look like he did besides lurking in a subterranean lake for 500 years. (1) He was evil, having killed his best friend. (2) He was totally under the power of his Precious. (3) He ate mostly fish and Orcs (4) He was suffering from schizophrenia (5) He was tortured by Sauron (6) He hated the sun and stayed out of its light.
Also Sauron had poured his own power (Maiar) into the forging of the ring. Golem had given into the influence of the ring, and probably wore it often while living under ground amongst the goblins. so he "absorbed" more of it?
I’m finally early on one of your releases. I have to say I LOVE your channel I have recommended you to several friends. Thank you for the great content keep it up!!!
Thanks for that. Influenced by the films I have to admit my thinking was primarily that Bilbo and Frodo came by the ring without evil, and at least in Bilbo's case gave it up freely. Therefore it held no lasting effect on them. But that's not what the books say at all. Bilbo didn't physically age until the ring was destroyed and Frodo hadn't possessed it long enough to change markedly after it was gone.* *Gollum knew this, as can be seen by his comments on Mt Doom. Being so far past the natural lifespan of a Hobbit, no doubt if he hadn't gone in to the fire with the ring he would have crumbled to dust on the spot.
Bilbo does age a bit - he's sleepier, more sedentary and more forgetful when Frodo first encounters him at Rivendell. As though he was older and just wanted to retire there and hang up his walking boots. But he is still not as old as he should be - he only becomes his actual age once the Ring is destroyed.
I really love how you use the works of so many artists in your videos! I am delighted not only by the tales you tell, but by the amazing art we get to see along the way!
So I suppose Frodo also rapidly jumps from a 33 year old to a 50 year old after the Ring is destroyed. No wonder he’s feeling so down: sudden-onset midlife crisis
One detail I enjoyed from the film, is that as Gollum plummets into the lava of mount doom and is consumed by it, he never gives up the ring even in his dying moment. So too does the One Ring float on the surface of the lava and is not destroyed by it. It is only when Frodo agrees to take Sam's hand and be rescued does the ring itself destroyed. It wasn't the physical act of tossing the ring into the fires of Mount Doom itself that ends the One Ring, but the willingness to relinquish it. I think if Frodo had decided to drop to his death as Gollum had, the Ring would not have been destroyed in the fires and likely have floated there until it could be recovered.
Fun fact: in real life, it would have been the opposite. The ring was denser than lava and would have sunk. However, the human body (and consequently, the river folk's body, such as Gollum) is less dense than lava and would have floated.
Giving credit to all of the artists whose work was shown was a really respectable thing to do, though not that common. As an artist myself, that kind of thing does not go unappreciated!
To give Peter Jackson's interpretation of events some credence, you can kind of see how it also makes sense though. As was alluded to in the video, Bilbo gave up the ring (mostly) willingly. You could argue the film version looks at that as the ring losing any hold over Bilbo, including, the age preventing effect that the ring has. So while the ring wasn't destroyed yet, in that version, it already stopped affecting him.
Not really. Remember how, when Frodo is buttoning his shirt, Bilbo gets a short glimpse of the One-and briefly becomes the scary vision described in the book, reaching out to grasp it one more time…
Talking about the movie adaptation: It is said that the ring has consumed gollum. He cannot live with or without it. In a way it has become a part of him, so it makes sense that it would grant gollum unnatural long life as long as the ring exists in the world (so even if it is not close to gollum. Besides, gollum doesn't really wear the ring, but he has it close and not even on him). Bilbo and Frodo were not yet consumed by the ring (well maybe Frodo at the very end?) so to me it makes sense that they would go on and age again after "willingly" passing the ring on to others. (the ring ultimately hasn;t been able to break their free will).
This also explains neatly the way the Nazgul were destroyed (in the films, at least) after the One was destroyed. The One was the linchpin holding their existence together (since it controls the lesser rings). I don't even want to _imagine_ what it feels like to be a thousands-year-old lich, then have your phylactery destroyed and all those centuries catch up with you in an instant, yeesh 😱The Witch-king of Angmar had it easy...
The Ring has powers that extend beyond its proximity. I think just as Sauron held power over rhe Nazgul, who did not wear their Rings. The Ring itself hrld some kind of power of those who bore it, whether in their possession or not. Sauron accessed power frim the Ring because it still existed, so why can't Gollum and Bilbo receive that same power by extension? It seems to me that the easiest explanation to believe is that Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo all lost their "youth" when the Ring was destroyed and their hröar changed to look like their actual age. I think Rivendale and Lothlorien also became diminished as soon as the Ring was destroyed.
Willing, is doubtful. He was coerced more than convinced to give the ring up. As Bilbo is shown to constantly crave it still. While it took Boromir's infatuation with the idea of the ring, and Gollum/Smeagol's pitiful affections to turn Frodo to covet the ring at the end.
@@MrEmioskit was willing, he just wasn't strong enough to do it himself. Like a drug addict who also needs help to let go, and who still has to resist to fall back
Gollum gave himself body and soul to the ring. He conflated the ring and himself in his mind as ONE being. Imagine someone taking a leg from you suddenly and without your permission, does it stop being any less part of you? The ring was Gollums heart, and he never stopped longing for it back. Poor wretched addict that he was.
I'm a bit surprised that Letter 131 never came into the picture in this video. Tolkien openly states that Bilbo began to age after the ring, whose power he was affected by, was destroyed. It's the conclusive proof of your own reasoning, coming from the author himself: "In Rivendell Bilbo is now old, being released from the grasp of the Ring."
I saw the film first, so my head cannon is with gollum the Ring extended his life far beyond the natural life span and completely ensnared him binding his fate to it's own similarly to the Nazgul. Though the ring maintains Bilbo he still is in the natural life expectancy so when he surrenders the ring his body starts to return to it's natural state(it's more extreme in the film because there is no indication of the passage of time from when Gandalf leaves after the party and returns to inform Frodo, from the context clues like 1-2 years max not the 17 the book took. so once Bilbo gave up the ring to when it's destroyed he's aged 30 or so years, and by the time he leaves the Grey havens Bilbo is his natural age of like 130 years which is right at the natural limit for hobbits. In the book there is no change in Bilbo's appearance until after the ring is destroyed.
The films were 100% correct in doing it the way they did. It became more cinematic. Imagine Frodo getting the Ring, and then nothing happens for 17 years in the film. The tension built up over the Ring in the movie would have been lessened. It works in the book but film is a different media and you need some sense of urgency to push the narrative along.
I don't think possessing the One Ring for a long period of time would have any benefit to one's longevity. It makes more sense that Gollum would have come crashing down to a skeletal pile in the same way that Barad-dür came crashing down to a pile of rubble.
Now with the part of Sauron holding the Nazgul Rings, I'm wondering if anyone getting hold of those rings could controll them. or if it indeed has more to do with the link to the One Ring.
If your ever looking for what if ideas I think a “what if Sauron defeated the last alliance” could be neat! Unless the outcome would be the same if Sauron got the one ring. Or a “what if the Valar got involved in the war of the ring”
Rivendell has the effect of preservation due to Elrond's ring no? When Bilbo is in Rivendell for 17 years couldn't that slow his aging in conjunction with the lingering effects of the one ring? Why is this not considered
I recall that in the book Bilbo was introduced to Frodo by Elrond as a a small, tired figure who sat alone and didn't go to the feast. He later revealed that he spends more time sleeping, so he does seem to have aged. Be that as it may, it is possible that living in Rivendell in proximity to one of The Three had some beneficial life-preserving effects on him.
Coincidentally I was reading FOTR last night, specifically the chapters The Council of Elrond through A Journey Through the Dark, and I took note of the fact that Bilbo in Rivendell before Frodo’s departure was described in such a way that one would reasonably assume that he appeared relatively young, with him writing and reciting poetry and everything, and his apparent willingness to be ringbearer again to take the ring to Mt.Doom, if no one else was willing. When he gave Sting and his mithril shirt to Frodo he didn’t say “I’m too old to use these anymore” instead it was more that Frodo would likely need them more than he would. Not the comment of someone who felt old and decrepit.
It seems to me that after the last great foe of the elder days was vanquished everyone touched by great Elven magic (except Aragorn and Arwen) had to leave Middle Earth - even Sam, who only held onto the One Ring for less than a day. That's why Sam had to leave for the Blessed Realm.
Sam never had to leave Middle Earth for the Undying Lands. He did it out of love for Frodo and because he had a place on a ship set aside for him. He could have stayed in the Shire.
Samwise didn't have to go, but because he was a Ring-Bearer the Valar offered him a boon to come to Tol Eressa and spend his last days there. He chose to go after his wife passed away. One would assume Frodo would still be alive then but if not Gandalf and the Elves of the fellowship would be there to greet him.
I am curious as to the meaning of mortals Bilbo and Frodo going to the Undying Lands. Certainly, this was meant as a reward and time of healing for them after bearing such evil as the One Ring. But how does this play into the reward of Eru where men are gifted another fate after death? Does a mortal going to the Undying Lands then become immortal? Or do they simply live out their natural mortal lifespan in the enchanted paradise?
Maybe not just how the Ring is acquired, but also the bearer’s pre-existing temperament? The books establish Sméagol as a sneak and generally unpleasant sort even before acquiring the Ring. Frodo and Bilbo are both good-natured. Perhaps it has different effects on those with more inherent evil?
Interesting, this either implies that the Ring could be used for life extension (or at least to ward of the negative effects of old age) relatively safely by giving it away before it could fully take control of one's mind. Or (more likely) that had the ring not been destroyed, Bilbo and Gollum would eventually fade and become wraiths even without the Ring.
It seems to me that if Gollum had survived he would have perished immediately like the Nazgul did when the ring was destroyed since it was in his possession for centuries.
@@Princejp-m6k I know.... kinda what I think also.... he killed his cousin (?).... before he even wore the ring.... makes you wonder just how evil the Ring wraiths were in life... Peace
@@Donathon-qx8kq Maybe it was more from a movie portrayal, see emotions on the screen which I didn't feel across the book, but yes maybe he was beyond many hundreds of years ago, at least he died with his precious 😅
Thanks good videos your voice send me to sleep lately(i go to sleep with lotr lore i mean your voice is awesome), I wonder, is there an afterlife for Hobbits? Are they like humans ? Or what ...
Food for thought this one!🤔 I had a friend ask me "why don't the Nazgul speak or communicate? Why or how does Smaug communicate?" I also wrote a dissertation and gave a lecture on the spot!😂 🧝♂️🧝♀️🧙♂️🥔🥓🍻😁
I don't think the Nazgul used telepathy to communicate with the Gaffer back when Frodo and his friends were getting ready to leave the Shire. He must have had a speaking voice. Also the Witch King spoke to Ëowyn.
I don't agree with the idea that Bilbo hadn't aged significantly in the 17 years following giving up the Ring. He is certainly sleepier and more forgetful when Frodo first sees him in Rivendell - and he admits to feeling old and having given up travelling. That sounds like a much older hobbit than the one at his birthday party. Also, this idea that he wasn't travelling because Gandalf and Elrond told him not to... well, Gandalf only discovered the identity of the Ring a few months prior to this conversation, so it wouldn't make any sense for Gandalf to have warned him about the Enemy before this. I'm guessing that they told him that much later on during his sojourn at Rivendell - and only because he was too old to do much travelling anyway. Indeed, Bilbo is much more sleepy, more forgetful and more sedentary when Frodo meets him on his way back to The Shire, but he had already shown signs of all that at their previous meeting. At this first meeting, the effects of the Ring had been slowly weakening for 17 years, but at the second, the Ring had been destroyed along with most of its influence. But the Ring's destruction had still left wounds on both Bilbo and Frodo's psyches that couldn't be cured in Middle-earth. As for Gollum, the book in fact says that he did suddenly feel old once he had lost the Ring, but he also felt better - and the fresh air and better food he was getting outside of his mountain lair also improved his general fitness. I don't think the manner in which he received the Ring had anything to do with the less marked effect in terms of aging of being without the Ring. How could it? I don't see any reason why it should. Maybe Bilbo's act of pity towards Gollum made it harder for the Ring to corrupt him and easier for him to give it up - but I don't see why this should also alter the life-preservation powers of the Ring. It's just pure speculation to suggest that it would. It was just that Gollum had had the Ring for far far longer than Bilbo, so its impact upon Golluim's lifespan was much more profound. Bilbo was still within the maximum hobbit lifespan when the Ring was destroyed - but Gollum had had the Ring for at least FOUR hobbit lifespans when he lost it and was more than FIVE TIMES the hobbit life expectancy when it was destroyed.
I think the ring had altered Golum’s physiology after being in his hands for so long. The ring initially slows down your death, but since there is only so much life in a body it has to find a substitute to refuel it. This would all be bound by the command of the ring, but if the ring was destroyed (like it was) or if the original magic was left alone for too long, I imagine it would grow unstable and eventually just make poor Golum’s body turn to dust.
@@LordDaret I think we are left trying to explain why Gollum was still alive and very obviously kicking after being without the Ring for almost 80 years - and it's difficult to come to a definitive conclusion about this, because Tolkien left the details of the precise effects of the Ring a bit vague. Using my head-canon to fill in the gaps, I'd have to guess that Gollum had had the Ring for many lifetimes of his own kind, and so the effect of it on him was so profound that he could have lived for maybe hundreds of years after losing it. I think he wouldn't have turned into a wraith if permanently deprived of the thing - and nor would Bilbo. And they both would have died eventually (and Bilbo much sooner for possessing it for a much shorter timespan), but they would both have longed all that time for the Ring. The aging process had clearly restarted in both after their possession of the Ring ended, but it was also still proceeding at a much slower pace than normal. But it was definitely happening to both of them, indicating that their mortality had been restored.
@@nathynorthy6916 sadly I lack the research on Tolkiens written work so my answers come more from theory and the movies rather than a good understanding of the books. I agree with you that those two wouldn’t have become wraiths, but I suspect the outcomes simply depends on what the ring wants rather than a consistent outcome. The reason why Golum is still alive, despite lacking the ring, is because the ring modified his body in a way that wasn’t being powered by the ring itself, but simply sealed by the ring. We know that the ring had some… long range effects… like keeping Sauron alive and still providing limited power to him remotely. knowing that Maiar had a limited ability to speak words into existence (from secondhand knowledge), one could assume that shoving the entire power of one into a item and giving it sentience should produce similar effects. The only question is how the speaker interprets the information…
I think it's because Bilbo acquired the ring, and Gollum CLAIMED the ring. The Former was not bound by the ring, though it was beginning to ensnare him The other was utterly claimed by the ring.
@@AlyssMa7rin I suspect the ring was baiting Bilbo into traveling around. Plus it would be pretty bad if he started looking decrepit as he wandered, otherwise someone might realize it was a ring of power…
Certainly in the books, the transition from young Smeagol to old Gollum entailed a lot of aging. The movies dialed this back, making young Smeagol look a lot more than Gollum than I think Tolkien intended. Smeagol was supposed to be very hobbit-like.
i always thought that it was kind of like a come-down period. as bilbo had the ring for much less time, he begins to age almost instantly after he gives it up. however, as gollum had the ring for centuries, and, as you said, didn't give it up, it still had that hold over him, meaning that if he had lived long enough, or lived after the ring was destroyed, he would have begun to age too
I believe the main difference between Bilbo and Gollum is that Bilbo gave up the Ring willingly. He severed that connection, but Gollum... never let go. Smeagol still possessed it in his heart.
Two Towers came out when I was 10 years old I remember my one friend trying to tell me that there's a part in the movie where you can see gollum's hog flopping around at one part after he ends up in the clutches of faramir's men.
Possibly. But Bilbo did not intentionally seek the Ring out. Smeagol killed for it and I can't help but wonder if that played a hand in it. I don't doubt Bilbo might have eventually become this malformed creature, but I wonder if it wouldn't take a lot longer for him.
@@Tahkaullus01 yes i agree. But he almost couldn’t handle himself when Frodo had it at Rivendell. So eventually he may become gollum like. Maybe 750 years later perhaps.
@@Tahkaullus01 Are you saying longevity gained by malevolence is different from that gained by happenstance?🤔 I am not sure it should make a difference in the length of life, but it would impact the quality of life, me thinks.
I believe it might’ve been the fact that he was the closest of the ring’s owners to becoming a one of the wraths.(Gollum just by looking at it him, he appears closer to a corpse than anything living.) The rings seem to devour one’s soul and passively preserve the body. Bilbo feeling being stretched and thin is likely because of how little is/was of his soul left.
Another thing that could easily have effected it was how much is was warn. It is implied that Golem would ware it for most of the time he had it. Bilbo while using it a lot at first then stopped using it for a long time. Even Frodo did not use the ring as much as Bilbo.
Is it certain the Nazgul did not wear their rings? I always assumed they did because there seemed to be no reason for them not to. That Sauron had gathered the nine rings to himself, and "held" them could be just figuratively speaking, as the Nazgul served him unquestioningly.
Here is Letter #246, on about the 6th page: "Not wholly. I do not think they (the Ringwraiths) could have attacked him (Frodo) with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by {Sauron, who still through their nine Rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.}" That last part is very clear that Sauron literally held the Nine Rings of Power. Why else would Tolkien even write those words "which he held," if he didn't physically hold them? That phrase between the parentheses is for clarification and additional information.
@@jiddro33 Actually, I used to believe the Ringwraiths wore their Nine Rings. There is a quote by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond where he says, "the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep." Steven Gibbs who used to be known as The Red Book did a fantastic video where he explained that Sauron actually held the Rings. The quote from the Letter is important because that was written by Tolkien after Lord of the Rings was published. Therefore it was Tolkien's last word on that issue. As for why Sauron had to hold those Rings, that is another question for another video.😅
The "Old Took" was Bilbo's maternal grandfather, Gerontius Took, who was famous among hobbits for reaching the age of 130, which was the longest recorded lifespan for a hobbit up to that time. When Bilbo reached the age of 131 shortly before he sailed to Valinor with Frodo, Gandalf, and the others, he "passed" the Old Took's record for longevity.
If I remember correctly: the Nazgul still have claim over their rings (and vice versa), but possibly the rings being physically held by Sauron. When being stated by Tolkien that Sauron held the Nine, that can be understood in two ways: 1) He held them physically, they were gathered to Sauron. 2) Sauron held the Rings under his control through his will. The Nazgûl still wore them, but the Rings were controlled by Sauron.
It was usually my interpretation that they still wore them... thought thinking about that more now, they were not found (or even searched for) after the wraiths were discorporated / unhorsed at the Ford of Bruinen, nor after the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn & Merry on the Fields of Gondor. In retrospect, it seems odd that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn and others would have neglected the Nine Rings' whereabouts unless they were fairly sure they were under Sauron's physical control. They care about the locations and activities of the Nine Riders, but not their Nine Rings - even when they have reason to guess they might be separated...
@@usotsuki5 There is a subtle difference in mastering/dominating, claiming ownership and just wearing a ring of power. In my interpretation, Sauron mastered/dominated the 9 rings and probably physically held the 9 (by reasoning of absense of mentioning after the Witch-king died), but the Nazgul definitely in some form were still the owners of their rings. Just like Frodo, throughout his journey he held the ring but never claimed the ring until Mount Doom and clearly he never mastered the ring. Similarly Isildur also held the ring, but was unable to bend the ring to his will.
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said that the Nazgûl "kept" the Nine Rings, ("the Nine the Nazgûl keep") which led me to always interpret the meaning of Sauron "holding" the Nine Rings as being option 2, that they still wore their rings. As far as individuals searching for the rings after the Nazgûl were defeated, I would assume that those searching for signs of them after they were overwhelmed by the magic of the Ford of Bruinen would also have searched for the rings, but not found any due to the fact that the Nazgûl themselves were not slain, only deprived of their steeds and the cloaks they wore to make themselves visible in the physical world. Thus they would still have carried their rings with them as they slowly made their way back to Mordor from the ford. In the case of the Witch King, I expect that his ring was indeed left behind on the battlefield with his empty armor after he was slain by Eowyn. In that instance, the reason no mention was made of a search for and possible recovery of his ring was due to the fact that only a handful of individuals would have known about his ring and these individuals (Gandalf, Aragorn and the other members of the Fellowship who were present in Minas Tirith at the time) had far more pressing matters to attend to, such as preparing to march out and attack the Black Gate to draw Sauron's attention away from Mt. Doom. I do think it could make for an interesting fanfiction if some random Rohirric or Gondorian soldier found the Witch King's ring of power. It would have quickly lost its power, though, as the Ring was destroyed only a few days later.
@@DamonNomad82 But given that Gandalf even calls the lesser rings dangerous for mortals, he definitely would be wary/aware if Witch King's ring was on the battleground next to King Théoden and a gigantic Hell Hawk.
Come on! Tolkien never minced words. He was a contributor to the Oxford Dictionary. He put a lot of thought into what he wrote and that includes his essays and Letters. Sauron absolutely had possession of all of the nine Rings of Power that controlled the Nazgul.
5:25 I took it as he has gathered the 16 ring OWNERS to himself as his servants of evil. I wonder what became of the 9 dwarf ring bearers. Im not even through book one so maybe it says
So what happens to those who cross the sea? Do Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli all live immortal lives? Or does nothing really change for them, besides getting to see Valinor? (And seeing Galadriel in the case of Gimli)
i believe that tolkien was showing us rather than telling us that bilbo had aged by bilbo not going to the feast and dozing in and out of sleep in the elves poetry/song room on frodos first trip to rivendall. this continues to get more prevelant as the visits continue, bilbo falling asleep mid conversation when frodo visits him next/not coming to the wedding. and finally sleeping on the back of his horse when he and elrond visit frodo in the shire. gandalf also comments that bilbo had the ring much longer that frodo and thus this is why his life was stretching so long and frodos is not.
Don’t mind me; i’m only getting my thoughts together before i watch the video: Isn’t Gollum already aged? And in the books, there were many more years between Bilbo’s departure and Frodo arriving in Rivendell.
In the books 17 years go by between the time that Bilbo gives Frodo the ring and leaves the Shire and their reunion in Rivendell. It says nothing about Bilbo looking older. Only after the ring is destroyed does Bilbo's true age seem to quickly catch up with him. The obvious explanation would be that ring either arrest or greatly slows down the aging process while in an individual's possession. Once they lose possession of it the aging process continues at its natural rate from that point. It is only after its destruction and all that was wrought with it unmade that the individual reverts to their true age. The statements about Bilbo looking and feeling stretched thin were in regard to the slow process of being turned into a wraith. The ultimate fate of any owner eventually.
Another great descriptive video Matt thank you. Makes me wonder just why the dark lord would have put an element of aging on the ring when he created it. It also makes me wonder about all the other magical elements that the 1 ring possessed. In lotr one is made aware of some of the powers of the 3 but the true full power of the 1 remains somewhat elusive. Perhaps a video on the exact powers of the rings would be useful. Did Sauron need to extend his life for example ? Your explanation would be most enlightening
As Sauron is an Ainur, he had no need to extend his lifespan, as he was already immortal; however, the primary purpose of the Rings of Power was to preserve the realms and powers of their bearers, and the One Ring was no exception to this. As such, the use of a Ring of Power would preserve (and thus prolong) the lifespan of a mortal. However, as the Rings of Power were intended to be used by immortals, such as Sauron (in the case of the One Ring) or the Elves (in the case of the other nineteen Rings), the preservation effect was dangerous to mortals, given that immortals live at once in both the Seen and the Unseen realms. Over time, mortals bearing a Ring of Power would become wraiths, as their physical bodies fade and wither away, with their souls becoming bound to the Ring they bore. Hobbits and Dwarves would not fade however, due to their nature; instead, with Dwarves it simply amplified their greed and anger, often causing great calamity and ruin in the process - and Hobbits, who are unconcerned with the affirs of the wider world, just seem to live longer. However, Hobbits who bear a Ring of Power seem to become incredibly fixated upon it (moreso than other mortals), as well as developing seperation anxiety and paranoid tendiencies. I've summarised it here, however there is a whole series of videos on the powers of the Rings, which goes into more detail: Three Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky: ruclips.net/video/CH_hwIqeVJ0/видео.html Seven for the Dwarf Lords, in their Halls of Stone: ruclips.net/video/g0LzuZb_FY8/видео.html Nine for Mortal Men, Doomed to Die: ruclips.net/video/-JQK9GjcrW4/видео.html One for the Dark Lord, on His Dark Throne, in the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie: ruclips.net/video/kxMO8xTLeoc/видео.html
What happens to the Ringwraith's rings after the destruction of the One Ring. Would they be safe (and powerful) to use, without the corrupting connection? Or were they consumed along with the One Ring?
The destruction of the one ring must have been quite a thing from Bilbo's perspective. If, once the ring was gone, he was experiencing the ageing of years over the space of a few months, he must have felt the effects of age arriving far more rapidly than most individuals do - even if he didn't notice any other clues that the ring was destroyed. (I don't recall of he experienced any feeling of loss or other "psychic"/psychological impression of the ring's destruction.) Almost immediately, he must have felt the twinges of age creeping upon him much more rapidly than they had done to that point. I guess that would have been bittersweet for him.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
When my dad read LOTR to me as a kid, he described the ring not as making one live longer, but making one die more slowly. This is why bilbo feels thin and stretched. Its not prolonging his life, its stretching out his death
Really interesting interpretation
That’s pretty much what the rings did.
This actually is probably a more apt description.
True. A gnawing discomfort as Mandos urges your soul to come to the halls of the dead.
That actually makes a lot of sense, in Tolkien’s world only Eru, the true divine being, can create life, Sauron’s master Melkor/Morgoth hated this and chose to pervert what life he could to make something of his own, orcs made from elves, but he could only alter, twist a life form already in existence, never truly create new life. So it stands to reason Sauron’s rings can’t give more life either, only prolong death.
"Butter scraped over too much bread" is such an excellent example of evocative writing, and is surpassingly beautiful in its simplicity and relatability.
I like how most people, average laymen, would probably say it more like "too little butter spread over a slice of bread" but Tolkien considers bread would most often be eaten in such a setting in small loaves rather than in slices.
Little things like that make a world of difference in writing.
It’s one of my favourite lines, it’s so perfect for encapsulating how he feels, we know exactly what he means
I don't get what it's supposed to mean
@@kingsteel2972 the clue is in the full quote ‘I feel thin, like butter scraped over too much bread’
I never forgot that one line. It even struck me as a child.
Another passage that might be cited is the one when Gollum almost repents. The narrator says that if any had seen him at that moment, they would have seen an ancient Hobbit, frail and weal. He was impossibly old for his kind, but the Ring kept him going.
Bilbo is a sedentary creature, especially after going to Rivendell.
Gollum is physically active with a diet of raw fish and the occasional goblin.
The books say he loved long hikes and was out and about for days and weeks, and sometimes took Frodo with him. And they met Elves. That's why Frodo speaks Elvish and is educated about their culture and history.
Bilbo never lost his sense for Adventure and lust for travelling
@@CordeliaWagner1999yeah but was he eating fish and goblins
@@CordeliaWagner1999 Fish and Goblin diet is secret to immortality. Spread the word. Start hunting goblins. No cooking either.
And fresh babies
You need glutathione
@@thegatorhator6822 Plenty of Omega 3 fatty acids
Even Gollum seems to understand this dimly. When he attacks Frodo and Sam on the slopes of Mt. Doom and Frodo leaves him for Sam to deal with, Tolkien writes that Gollum says, “Don’t kill us,’ he wept. ‘Don’t hurt us with nassty cruel steel! Let us live, yes, live just a little longer. Lost lost! We’re lost. And when Precious goes we’ll die, yes, die into the dust.’ He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. ‘Dusst!’ he hissed.” Apart from the psychological toll of having his addiction taken beyond where he can reach it, he seems to understand that his survival only lasts as long as the Ring. He literally can’t live without it, which adds another incentive for him to make a last-ditch effort to get it back from Frodo. Yes, Frodo cursed him to fall into the Cracks of Doom if he touched Frodo again, but if he’s going to die anyway…. And Gollum doesn’t have much concept of unselfishness that would allow him to accept sacrificing himself for the sake of a promise.
Honestly...when you think how fast the decades caught up with Bilbo... dying in the fires of Mount Doom was probably a better way to go, compared to what Gollum would have experienced
I think Eru Illuvitar shoved Gollum at the end.
@Weiyinglou, it could be both.
Rankin bass return of the king did this scene very faithfully with the exact same dialogue
@@meganofsherwood3665
Yes. High speed, time-lapsed death.
Gollum’s raw fish-based diet provides both high protein and omega-3 fatty acids. This explains his long lifespan, long health-span and perfect skin complexion!
There it is, the actual reason
not to forget one or two baby orks here and there, according to the book..
@thomasplinguidy4588 That's just a cheat meal
Maybe, but also high in parasites.
😂
I also believe that Bilbo was less affected because he didn't obsess over the ring as constantly like Gollum did. Picture 2 alcoholics, one that has a few shots scattered throughout the day, while the other is Nicholas Cage from Leaving Las Vegas
The Precious was Gollum's goddess. That was a 24/7 obsession for sure.👍😁
I mean, you're not wrong. The daily drinking alcoholic has withdrawals when he quits. The once a week binge drinking alcoholic does not (I was one for 8 years and when I quit I didn't have withdrawals like some of my friends did who weren't even alcoholics as long, they just had the bug worse than me and were drinking from wake up to sleepy time, not getting absolutely smashed once every 7 - 8 days to self-medicate their depression)
Listening to you tell the story with all the different voices and drawings makes me go back to the feeling of wonder I had listening to stories as a child.
The Ring seems to literally be like a magical corrupting drug. At first it makes the user more powerful and gifted but in time, even if it takes 100's of years, it eventually makes you more and more sickly and slavish until you're a wraith. One of worst parts of the Ring is that power and charm it bestows to the user seems to never become forgotten. Whoever has wielded it can't forget it's power, and they have a small (or very large in the case of Gollum) lust and yearning for it. It's only when it's destroyed does the psychological grip finally leave the Ringbearers.
It wouldn't surprise me if Bilbo felt a huge weight lifted off his spirit at the time of the Ring's destruction, even though there was yet no news that it had been destroyed.
I'm envisioning frodo casually dropping the ring into the fire, Gollum standing there and watching. Soon as the ring melts, Gollum just turns into a poof of ash and bone.
*Looks down in sadness*
'Aww nutssss'
*poof*
Yes. A kind of Saruman ending.
“Scheiße, precioussss”
*sad “gollum” noise*
poof
how awful if Gollum turned into a poof :(
@@papalaz4444244
🌬️
My assumption is that he was in possession of the One Ring for so long that he got overloaded with longevity such that even 60 years later he still had some spare years left
Do you mean Bilbo or Gollum?🧐
@@Enerdhil I mean Gollum, Bilbo had a fresh supply of divine power from the ring in those 60 years
It doesn't work like that. What the ring does is to slowly *devour* the owner and supply Sauron with more strength, not the other way around. They just die slowly as they are slowly turned into a wraith. That is true both for the 9 rings and to the one.
And we know that Sauron devoured the Nine ring bearers to the extent we see there, nothing actually remains from their bodies and their souls but the slimmest shard.
@@Melanrick well, that doesn't help at all. but hang on, didn't Sauron take away the rings of power from the nazgul? and they kept on living. was it because they were stuck in the shadow world or were tied to Sauron directly?
@@blueshit199 Well, Sauron took the wraiths rings because A, there's nothing left to consume and corrupt. Their descent has been complete. They now relied on Sauron for everything and only listened to his whispers. And B because now he had the rings on his hands, he could better control them. Issue commands and give them a power up became easier plus, it would guarantee any thoughts of independence while Sauron is weakened. It's the guarantee that they would deliver the one ring. And they are kept alive by the one ring, same as the others, because once bound by it, that's it. The person is always bound to the ring and then Sauron.
Damn. It almost makes me glad that Gollum never fulfilled Frodo's hopes by redeeming himself. Frodo would have been so happy for the wretched old Hobbit, only for Gollum to die and turn to dust right after the One was destroyed.
In the case of redemption, I think Eru would have returned Gollum's physical state back to pre-Ring days and maybe his buddy Dëagol would be reembodied too.😁👍
@@Enerdhil That sounds wishful. Has something equivalent ever happened in Middle-Earth before?
@@colinbaldwin313
Gollum never gave us a chance to see what would have happened if he had had 180° change of character. I just think that in such a "what-if," Eru Iluvatar would find a way to make that redemption meaningful.
Maybe the redeemed Gollum wrestles the Ring from Frodo and falls into the fiery lava. He died a hero. 😁👍✝️
Hobbits being, according to Tolkien, a variety of Men, a redeemed Gollum who promptly died when the ring was destroyed would have left the circles of the world, as would the actual Gollum who fell in to the lava. One could speculate that a redeemed version would have found his destination pleasant.
@@joannakeenan3355 I hope that even the unredeemed Gollum winds up in a pleasant enough place, after the misery that was his life.
I think it's because of his diet. Fish are extremely healthy.
Sashimi without wasabi or soy sauce.😔
@@EnerdhilGiven his reaction to Sam's cooking interlude, I think he'd take wasabi as a poisoning attempt.
@@Eloraurora
"It burns our throatses!"😵
Goblinses are full of seed oils though
trans fatses and cholesterols, my Precious! * GOLUM,GOLUM! *
Interesting. I had never given the issue much thought before but your thoughts make a lot of sense. And it fits with Tolkien's overarching belief. Also of note of course that Bilbo after giving up the Ring spent seventeen years, or the bulk of it, in Rivendell, a healthy, open air kind of place, where Gollum spent it lurking in underground lakes among the mountains. The Ring prolonged their lives but the look of them was probably due to the environment.
There are more factors involved in making Gollum look like he did besides lurking in a subterranean lake for 500 years.
(1) He was evil, having killed his best friend.
(2) He was totally under the power of his Precious.
(3) He ate mostly fish and Orcs
(4) He was suffering from schizophrenia
(5) He was tortured by Sauron
(6) He hated the sun and stayed out of its light.
Also Sauron had poured his own power (Maiar) into the forging of the ring. Golem had given into the influence of the ring, and probably wore it often while living under ground amongst the goblins. so he "absorbed" more of it?
@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734
I doubt Gollum wore his Precious very often. I think only when he was fishing or hunting Orcs.
@@Enerdhil But he was down there a long time
@@sectureverothoughtcriminal7734
Yes 500 years of creepy love songs to his Precious.😣
I’m finally early on one of your releases. I have to say I LOVE your channel I have recommended you to several friends. Thank you for the great content keep it up!!!
Thanks for that.
Influenced by the films I have to admit my thinking was primarily that Bilbo and Frodo came by the ring without evil, and at least in Bilbo's case gave it up freely. Therefore it held no lasting effect on them. But that's not what the books say at all.
Bilbo didn't physically age until the ring was destroyed and Frodo hadn't possessed it long enough to change markedly after it was gone.*
*Gollum knew this, as can be seen by his comments on Mt Doom. Being so far past the natural lifespan of a Hobbit, no doubt if he hadn't gone in to the fire with the ring he would have crumbled to dust on the spot.
Well done and thought out. I never questioned Gollum's non-aging before.
Great art. Congratulations to the artists of these beautiful images and to you for the narration.
Bilbo didn't really age until the ring was destroyed, something they skipped around in the movies.
That's what the video says
@@TheMinskyTerrorist Yes, but this comment doesn't take 10 minutes to read.
@@mariogallao There are also other details in the video. I'm sure you knew that though.
Bilbo does age a bit - he's sleepier, more sedentary and more forgetful when Frodo first encounters him at Rivendell. As though he was older and just wanted to retire there and hang up his walking boots. But he is still not as old as he should be - he only becomes his actual age once the Ring is destroyed.
@mariogallao I agree. These videos, while interesting, could easily but edited in half.
This is the best LotR channel. Love your content, thank you for sharing.
I really love how you use the works of so many artists in your videos! I am delighted not only by the tales you tell, but by the amazing art we get to see along the way!
I’ve been waiting for this topic to be covered for a long time. Thank you.
So I suppose Frodo also rapidly jumps from a 33 year old to a 50 year old after the Ring is destroyed. No wonder he’s feeling so down: sudden-onset midlife crisis
One detail I enjoyed from the film, is that as Gollum plummets into the lava of mount doom and is consumed by it, he never gives up the ring even in his dying moment. So too does the One Ring float on the surface of the lava and is not destroyed by it. It is only when Frodo agrees to take Sam's hand and be rescued does the ring itself destroyed. It wasn't the physical act of tossing the ring into the fires of Mount Doom itself that ends the One Ring, but the willingness to relinquish it. I think if Frodo had decided to drop to his death as Gollum had, the Ring would not have been destroyed in the fires and likely have floated there until it could be recovered.
Fun fact: in real life, it would have been the opposite. The ring was denser than lava and would have sunk. However, the human body (and consequently, the river folk's body, such as Gollum) is less dense than lava and would have floated.
I hadn’t thought that hard about this before. This was interesting and insightful.
Probably because you didn't need to think about it before.😅
This moc is fantastic, love the idea of single episode projects!
Great analysis with strong logic and consistency, sir
Giving credit to all of the artists whose work was shown was a really respectable thing to do, though not that common. As an artist myself, that kind of thing does not go unappreciated!
Well explained and presented. Great job, Matt!
To give Peter Jackson's interpretation of events some credence, you can kind of see how it also makes sense though. As was alluded to in the video, Bilbo gave up the ring (mostly) willingly. You could argue the film version looks at that as the ring losing any hold over Bilbo, including, the age preventing effect that the ring has. So while the ring wasn't destroyed yet, in that version, it already stopped affecting him.
Not really. Remember how, when Frodo is buttoning his shirt, Bilbo gets a short glimpse of the One-and briefly becomes the scary vision described in the book, reaching out to grasp it one more time…
Talking about the movie adaptation: It is said that the ring has consumed gollum. He cannot live with or without it. In a way it has become a part of him, so it makes sense that it would grant gollum unnatural long life as long as the ring exists in the world (so even if it is not close to gollum. Besides, gollum doesn't really wear the ring, but he has it close and not even on him).
Bilbo and Frodo were not yet consumed by the ring (well maybe Frodo at the very end?) so to me it makes sense that they would go on and age again after "willingly" passing the ring on to others. (the ring ultimately hasn;t been able to break their free will).
This also explains neatly the way the Nazgul were destroyed (in the films, at least) after the One was destroyed. The One was the linchpin holding their existence together (since it controls the lesser rings). I don't even want to _imagine_ what it feels like to be a thousands-year-old lich, then have your phylactery destroyed and all those centuries catch up with you in an instant, yeesh 😱The Witch-king of Angmar had it easy...
Unrelated but I still find it funny that two of your top Patreon supporters are named Tom Bombadil and the Mighty Mim
Mîm had a short shelf life.😂
Gollum is the most interesting, fascinating, unique, and memorable character of any story I've ever read/watched/heard.
The Ring has powers that extend beyond its proximity. I think just as Sauron held power over rhe Nazgul, who did not wear their Rings. The Ring itself hrld some kind of power of those who bore it, whether in their possession or not. Sauron accessed power frim the Ring because it still existed, so why can't Gollum and Bilbo receive that same power by extension? It seems to me that the easiest explanation to believe is that Gollum and Bilbo and Frodo all lost their "youth" when the Ring was destroyed and their hröar changed to look like their actual age.
I think Rivendale and Lothlorien also became diminished as soon as the Ring was destroyed.
Bilbo gave up the ring willingly. The hunger still fueled gollum.
Willing, is doubtful. He was coerced more than convinced to give the ring up. As Bilbo is shown to constantly crave it still. While it took Boromir's infatuation with the idea of the ring, and Gollum/Smeagol's pitiful affections to turn Frodo to covet the ring at the end.
@@MrEmiosk Chances are Bilbo would have become Gollum 2.0 if Frodo had not taken the ring far from him.
@@silentecho92able you mean Gandalf.
@@MrEmioskit was willing, he just wasn't strong enough to do it himself.
Like a drug addict who also needs help to let go, and who still has to resist to fall back
@@MrEmioskFrodo kept the One in the Shire, while Bilbo travelled far away, even to The Lonely Mountain.
Its no wonder people were so formal with things back then it could be 20, 30, 50 years before you see a friend again LoL
Yes, Bilbo looked quite happy, too (9-year-old me), when he launched himself at Frodo.
I never thought the Ringwraiths were not literally wearing their rings of power. Very interesting.
Gollum gave himself body and soul to the ring. He conflated the ring and himself in his mind as ONE being. Imagine someone taking a leg from you suddenly and without your permission, does it stop being any less part of you? The ring was Gollums heart, and he never stopped longing for it back. Poor wretched addict that he was.
I'm a bit surprised that Letter 131 never came into the picture in this video. Tolkien openly states that Bilbo began to age after the ring, whose power he was affected by, was destroyed. It's the conclusive proof of your own reasoning, coming from the author himself: "In Rivendell Bilbo is now old, being released from the grasp of the Ring."
I saw the film first, so my head cannon is with gollum the Ring extended his life far beyond the natural life span and completely ensnared him binding his fate to it's own similarly to the Nazgul. Though the ring maintains Bilbo he still is in the natural life expectancy so when he surrenders the ring his body starts to return to it's natural state(it's more extreme in the film because there is no indication of the passage of time from when Gandalf leaves after the party and returns to inform Frodo, from the context clues like 1-2 years max not the 17 the book took. so once Bilbo gave up the ring to when it's destroyed he's aged 30 or so years, and by the time he leaves the Grey havens Bilbo is his natural age of like 130 years which is right at the natural limit for hobbits. In the book there is no change in Bilbo's appearance until after the ring is destroyed.
This was really good! Thanks
This is very similar to a recent TTT Mailbag Monday! Nice to know you're on the same page on this question.
That's funny. haha. Good to know Alan and I are on the same page!
This is good video. God bless you mate❤
I can't seem to find the artist who did the Bilbo sketch at 2:29. can you help please?
The films were 100% correct in doing it the way they did. It became more cinematic. Imagine Frodo getting the Ring, and then nothing happens for 17 years in the film. The tension built up over the Ring in the movie would have been lessened. It works in the book but film is a different media and you need some sense of urgency to push the narrative along.
Great post!
Before I watch I will speculate that it is because Smeagol possessed the ring much longer and perhaps used it much more than Bilbo did.
I don't think possessing the One Ring for a long period of time would have any benefit to one's longevity. It makes more sense that Gollum would have come crashing down to a skeletal pile in the same way that Barad-dür came crashing down to a pile of rubble.
Now with the part of Sauron holding the Nazgul Rings, I'm wondering if anyone getting hold of those rings could controll them. or if it indeed has more to do with the link to the One Ring.
If your ever looking for what if ideas I think a “what if Sauron defeated the last alliance” could be neat! Unless the outcome would be the same if Sauron got the one ring.
Or a “what if the Valar got involved in the war of the ring”
Butter scraped over too much bread is exactly how i felt taking math and computer science classes last semester
I was literally just wondering this yesterday
Rivendell has the effect of preservation due to Elrond's ring no? When Bilbo is in Rivendell for 17 years couldn't that slow his aging in conjunction with the lingering effects of the one ring?
Why is this not considered
Because gollum was never there
I recall that in the book Bilbo was introduced to Frodo by Elrond as a a small, tired figure who sat alone and didn't go to the feast. He later revealed that he spends more time sleeping, so he does seem to have aged. Be that as it may, it is possible that living in Rivendell in proximity to one of The Three had some beneficial life-preserving effects on him.
Coincidentally I was reading FOTR last night, specifically the chapters The Council of Elrond through A Journey Through the Dark, and I took note of the fact that Bilbo in Rivendell before Frodo’s departure was described in such a way that one would reasonably assume that he appeared relatively young, with him writing and reciting poetry and everything, and his apparent willingness to be ringbearer again to take the ring to Mt.Doom, if no one else was willing. When he gave Sting and his mithril shirt to Frodo he didn’t say “I’m too old to use these anymore” instead it was more that Frodo would likely need them more than he would. Not the comment of someone who felt old and decrepit.
It seems to me that after the last great foe of the elder days was vanquished everyone touched by great Elven magic (except Aragorn and Arwen) had to leave Middle Earth - even Sam, who only held onto the One Ring for less than a day. That's why Sam had to leave for the Blessed Realm.
Sam never had to leave Middle Earth for the Undying Lands. He did it out of love for Frodo and because he had a place on a ship set aside for him. He could have stayed in the Shire.
Samwise didn't have to go, but because he was a Ring-Bearer the Valar offered him a boon to come to Tol Eressa and spend his last days there. He chose to go after his wife passed away.
One would assume Frodo would still be alive then but if not Gandalf and the Elves of the fellowship would be there to greet him.
Loving the art and storytelling!
Bilbo possessed the ring, but the ring never stopped possessing Gollum
Great point!😁👍
Yeah I think that's a big part of it. Bilbo was never fully corrupted.
Great video. Have been an LOTR fan for decades and never considered this.
I am curious as to the meaning of mortals Bilbo and Frodo going to the Undying Lands. Certainly, this was meant as a reward and time of healing for them after bearing such evil as the One Ring. But how does this play into the reward of Eru where men are gifted another fate after death? Does a mortal going to the Undying Lands then become immortal? Or do they simply live out their natural mortal lifespan in the enchanted paradise?
1:16. Wow! That’s a long habit!! Imagine his kick?
Maybe not just how the Ring is acquired, but also the bearer’s pre-existing temperament? The books establish Sméagol as a sneak and generally unpleasant sort even before acquiring the Ring. Frodo and Bilbo are both good-natured. Perhaps it has different effects on those with more inherent evil?
Interesting, this either implies that the Ring could be used for life extension (or at least to ward of the negative effects of old age) relatively safely by giving it away before it could fully take control of one's mind. Or (more likely) that had the ring not been destroyed, Bilbo and Gollum would eventually fade and become wraiths even without the Ring.
It seems to me that if Gollum had survived he would have perished immediately like the Nazgul did when the ring was destroyed since it was in his possession for centuries.
I'd like to think that Gollum, just before he was captured by the pool, was starting to find himself, really starting to come around, feel for him 😅
IDK John.... I'm afraid Gollum was beyond redemption... after all he had killed...so I wonder what he was like before he ' found ' The Ring
@@Donathon-qx8kq He wasn't a nice hobbit, his own family kicked him out the family home
@@Princejp-m6k I know.... kinda what I think also.... he killed his cousin (?).... before he even wore the ring.... makes you wonder just how evil the Ring wraiths were in life... Peace
@@Donathon-qx8kq Maybe it was more from a movie portrayal, see emotions on the screen which I didn't feel across the book, but yes maybe he was beyond many hundreds of years ago, at least he died with his precious 😅
@@JohnSmith-rw2yn honestly.... one could ask for worse
Thanks good videos your voice send me to sleep lately(i go to sleep with lotr lore i mean your voice is awesome), I wonder, is there an afterlife for Hobbits? Are they like humans ? Or what ...
Thanks for the Super!
Hobbits are a branch of Men, so they have the same fate/afterlife, which is a mystery to all and known only to Iluvatar.
After death, the fëar of Hobbits and Men go to The Halls of Mandos for a short time and then they go off to a secret place designated by Eru Iluvatar.
Bilbo's goal between The End of the Hobbit and when he leaves middle earth is literally to get older than the Old Tuke 😅🤣😂
Food for thought this one!🤔
I had a friend ask me "why don't the Nazgul speak or communicate? Why or how does Smaug communicate?" I also wrote a dissertation and gave a lecture on the spot!😂
🧝♂️🧝♀️🧙♂️🥔🥓🍻😁
The Nazgul do communicate briefly with those they consider worthy of their breath. Gandalf, some of the Shire hobbits, etc.
I don't think the Nazgul used telepathy to communicate with the Gaffer back when Frodo and his friends were getting ready to leave the Shire. He must have had a speaking voice. Also the Witch King spoke to Ëowyn.
Smaug can speak Westron
Interesting 🤔
@@CalebMay-bf1ci
He also speaks Dragonese.🤪
I don't agree with the idea that Bilbo hadn't aged significantly in the 17 years following giving up the Ring. He is certainly sleepier and more forgetful when Frodo first sees him in Rivendell - and he admits to feeling old and having given up travelling. That sounds like a much older hobbit than the one at his birthday party. Also, this idea that he wasn't travelling because Gandalf and Elrond told him not to... well, Gandalf only discovered the identity of the Ring a few months prior to this conversation, so it wouldn't make any sense for Gandalf to have warned him about the Enemy before this. I'm guessing that they told him that much later on during his sojourn at Rivendell - and only because he was too old to do much travelling anyway. Indeed, Bilbo is much more sleepy, more forgetful and more sedentary when Frodo meets him on his way back to The Shire, but he had already shown signs of all that at their previous meeting. At this first meeting, the effects of the Ring had been slowly weakening for 17 years, but at the second, the Ring had been destroyed along with most of its influence. But the Ring's destruction had still left wounds on both Bilbo and Frodo's psyches that couldn't be cured in Middle-earth.
As for Gollum, the book in fact says that he did suddenly feel old once he had lost the Ring, but he also felt better - and the fresh air and better food he was getting outside of his mountain lair also improved his general fitness. I don't think the manner in which he received the Ring had anything to do with the less marked effect in terms of aging of being without the Ring. How could it? I don't see any reason why it should. Maybe Bilbo's act of pity towards Gollum made it harder for the Ring to corrupt him and easier for him to give it up - but I don't see why this should also alter the life-preservation powers of the Ring. It's just pure speculation to suggest that it would. It was just that Gollum had had the Ring for far far longer than Bilbo, so its impact upon Golluim's lifespan was much more profound. Bilbo was still within the maximum hobbit lifespan when the Ring was destroyed - but Gollum had had the Ring for at least FOUR hobbit lifespans when he lost it and was more than FIVE TIMES the hobbit life expectancy when it was destroyed.
I think the ring had altered Golum’s physiology after being in his hands for so long. The ring initially slows down your death, but since there is only so much life in a body it has to find a substitute to refuel it. This would all be bound by the command of the ring, but if the ring was destroyed (like it was) or if the original magic was left alone for too long, I imagine it would grow unstable and eventually just make poor Golum’s body turn to dust.
@@LordDaret I think we are left trying to explain why Gollum was still alive and very obviously kicking after being without the Ring for almost 80 years - and it's difficult to come to a definitive conclusion about this, because Tolkien left the details of the precise effects of the Ring a bit vague. Using my head-canon to fill in the gaps, I'd have to guess that Gollum had had the Ring for many lifetimes of his own kind, and so the effect of it on him was so profound that he could have lived for maybe hundreds of years after losing it. I think he wouldn't have turned into a wraith if permanently deprived of the thing - and nor would Bilbo. And they both would have died eventually (and Bilbo much sooner for possessing it for a much shorter timespan), but they would both have longed all that time for the Ring. The aging process had clearly restarted in both after their possession of the Ring ended, but it was also still proceeding at a much slower pace than normal. But it was definitely happening to both of them, indicating that their mortality had been restored.
@@nathynorthy6916 sadly I lack the research on Tolkiens written work so my answers come more from theory and the movies rather than a good understanding of the books.
I agree with you that those two wouldn’t have become wraiths, but I suspect the outcomes simply depends on what the ring wants rather than a consistent outcome. The reason why Golum is still alive, despite lacking the ring, is because the ring modified his body in a way that wasn’t being powered by the ring itself, but simply sealed by the ring. We know that the ring had some… long range effects… like keeping Sauron alive and still providing limited power to him remotely. knowing that Maiar had a limited ability to speak words into existence (from secondhand knowledge), one could assume that shoving the entire power of one into a item and giving it sentience should produce similar effects. The only question is how the speaker interprets the information…
I think it's because Bilbo acquired the ring, and Gollum CLAIMED the ring.
The Former was not bound by the ring, though it was beginning to ensnare him
The other was utterly claimed by the ring.
@@AlyssMa7rin I suspect the ring was baiting Bilbo into traveling around. Plus it would be pretty bad if he started looking decrepit as he wandered, otherwise someone might realize it was a ring of power…
Certainly in the books, the transition from young Smeagol to old Gollum entailed a lot of aging. The movies dialed this back, making young Smeagol look a lot more than Gollum than I think Tolkien intended. Smeagol was supposed to be very hobbit-like.
I never got the "swift sunrise" part, isn't Valimar more to the West, thus related to the twilight?
Valinor is on a flat Arda though, so the curvature of the globe doesn't affect its' sunrise
@@nissantzvitovey If it doesn't affect it, then what is the swift sunrise? Still lost. :(
i always thought that it was kind of like a come-down period. as bilbo had the ring for much less time, he begins to age almost instantly after he gives it up. however, as gollum had the ring for centuries, and, as you said, didn't give it up, it still had that hold over him, meaning that if he had lived long enough, or lived after the ring was destroyed, he would have begun to age too
I believe the main difference between Bilbo and Gollum is that Bilbo gave up the Ring willingly. He severed that connection, but Gollum... never let go. Smeagol still possessed it in his heart.
I have always wondered if Bilbo would have lived the extra years that he had the ring
Two Towers came out when I was 10 years old I remember my one friend trying to tell me that there's a part in the movie where you can see gollum's hog flopping around at one part after he ends up in the clutches of faramir's men.
Gollum had the ring for 500 years. If bilbo had it for the same amount of time he would have endured the same
Possibly. But Bilbo did not intentionally seek the Ring out. Smeagol killed for it and I can't help but wonder if that played a hand in it. I don't doubt Bilbo might have eventually become this malformed creature, but I wonder if it wouldn't take a lot longer for him.
@@Tahkaullus01 yes i agree. But he almost couldn’t handle himself when Frodo had it at Rivendell. So eventually he may become gollum like. Maybe 750 years later perhaps.
@@Tahkaullus01 That's basically what Gandalf said. Because Bilbo did not acquire the Ring through malicious means, he wasn't affected by it as much.
@@Tahkaullus01
Are you saying longevity gained by malevolence is different from that gained by happenstance?🤔
I am not sure it should make a difference in the length of life, but it would impact the quality of life, me thinks.
I think it is also how much time you used it. 1 day of using it may count like 1 week of just having it.
your Arwen voice stirs me
I believe it might’ve been the fact that he was the closest of the ring’s owners to becoming a one of the wraths.(Gollum just by looking at it him, he appears closer to a corpse than anything living.)
The rings seem to devour one’s soul and passively preserve the body. Bilbo feeling being stretched and thin is likely because of how little is/was of his soul left.
Another thing that could easily have effected it was how much is was warn. It is implied that Golem would ware it for most of the time he had it. Bilbo while using it a lot at first then stopped using it for a long time. Even Frodo did not use the ring as much as Bilbo.
Is it certain the Nazgul did not wear their rings? I always assumed they did because there seemed to be no reason for them not to. That Sauron had gathered the nine rings to himself, and "held" them could be just figuratively speaking, as the Nazgul served him unquestioningly.
Here is Letter #246, on about the 6th page:
"Not wholly. I do not think they (the Ringwraiths) could have attacked him (Frodo) with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by {Sauron, who still through their nine Rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.}"
That last part is very clear that Sauron literally held the Nine Rings of Power. Why else would Tolkien even write those words "which he held," if he didn't physically hold them? That phrase between the parentheses is for clarification and additional information.
@@Enerdhil "held" can also mean "controlled". But I agree that it sounds like he had the rings himself. I wonder why though.
@@jiddro33
Actually, I used to believe the Ringwraiths wore their Nine Rings.
There is a quote by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond where he says, "the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep."
Steven Gibbs who used to be known as The Red Book did a fantastic video where he explained that Sauron actually held the Rings. The quote from the Letter is important because that was written by Tolkien after Lord of the Rings was published. Therefore it was Tolkien's last word on that issue.
As for why Sauron had to hold those Rings, that is another question for another video.😅
@@jiddro33
Also if "held" can mean "controlled," why are both words used in proximity to each other and in the same sentence?🧐
I think the fact he was in the presence of the ring for hundreds of years is the simple reason.
Love your videos ❤
The 'Old Took' is a funny mention. Just "Ha! I lived longer than that one guy!"
I had always thought going to blessed realm would make them live forever and be content with that life, that they would be forever happy there.
What does he mean when he says that he's "passed the old Took"
The "Old Took" was Bilbo's maternal grandfather, Gerontius Took, who was famous among hobbits for reaching the age of 130, which was the longest recorded lifespan for a hobbit up to that time. When Bilbo reached the age of 131 shortly before he sailed to Valinor with Frodo, Gandalf, and the others, he "passed" the Old Took's record for longevity.
Age. He had one more birthday than The Old Took.
If I remember correctly: the Nazgul still have claim over their rings (and vice versa), but possibly the rings being physically held by Sauron.
When being stated by Tolkien that Sauron held the Nine, that can be understood in two ways: 1) He held them physically, they were gathered to Sauron. 2) Sauron held the Rings under his control through his will. The Nazgûl still wore them, but the Rings were controlled by Sauron.
It was usually my interpretation that they still wore them... thought thinking about that more now, they were not found (or even searched for) after the wraiths were discorporated / unhorsed at the Ford of Bruinen, nor after the Witch-King was slain by Eowyn & Merry on the Fields of Gondor. In retrospect, it seems odd that Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn and others would have neglected the Nine Rings' whereabouts unless they were fairly sure they were under Sauron's physical control. They care about the locations and activities of the Nine Riders, but not their Nine Rings - even when they have reason to guess they might be separated...
@@usotsuki5 There is a subtle difference in mastering/dominating, claiming ownership and just wearing a ring of power.
In my interpretation, Sauron mastered/dominated the 9 rings and probably physically held the 9 (by reasoning of absense of mentioning after the Witch-king died), but the Nazgul definitely in some form were still the owners of their rings.
Just like Frodo, throughout his journey he held the ring but never claimed the ring until Mount Doom and clearly he never mastered the ring. Similarly Isildur also held the ring, but was unable to bend the ring to his will.
At the Council of Elrond, Gandalf said that the Nazgûl "kept" the Nine Rings, ("the Nine the Nazgûl keep") which led me to always interpret the meaning of Sauron "holding" the Nine Rings as being option 2, that they still wore their rings. As far as individuals searching for the rings after the Nazgûl were defeated, I would assume that those searching for signs of them after they were overwhelmed by the magic of the Ford of Bruinen would also have searched for the rings, but not found any due to the fact that the Nazgûl themselves were not slain, only deprived of their steeds and the cloaks they wore to make themselves visible in the physical world. Thus they would still have carried their rings with them as they slowly made their way back to Mordor from the ford. In the case of the Witch King, I expect that his ring was indeed left behind on the battlefield with his empty armor after he was slain by Eowyn. In that instance, the reason no mention was made of a search for and possible recovery of his ring was due to the fact that only a handful of individuals would have known about his ring and these individuals (Gandalf, Aragorn and the other members of the Fellowship who were present in Minas Tirith at the time) had far more pressing matters to attend to, such as preparing to march out and attack the Black Gate to draw Sauron's attention away from Mt. Doom. I do think it could make for an interesting fanfiction if some random Rohirric or Gondorian soldier found the Witch King's ring of power. It would have quickly lost its power, though, as the Ring was destroyed only a few days later.
@@DamonNomad82 But given that Gandalf even calls the lesser rings dangerous for mortals, he definitely would be wary/aware if Witch King's ring was on the battleground next to King Théoden and a gigantic Hell Hawk.
Come on! Tolkien never minced words. He was a contributor to the Oxford Dictionary. He put a lot of thought into what he wrote and that includes his essays and Letters. Sauron absolutely had possession of all of the nine Rings of Power that controlled the Nazgul.
An interesting take which makes a lot of sense. Btw, what is the music in the background? It sounds Shore-like, very elegiac.
5:25
I took it as he has gathered the 16 ring OWNERS to himself as his servants of evil. I wonder what became of the 9 dwarf ring bearers. Im not even through book one so maybe it says
So what happens to those who cross the sea? Do Frodo, Bilbo, and Gimli all live immortal lives? Or does nothing really change for them, besides getting to see Valinor? (And seeing Galadriel in the case of Gimli)
i believe that tolkien was showing us rather than telling us that bilbo had aged by bilbo not going to the feast and dozing in and out of sleep in the elves poetry/song room on frodos first trip to rivendall. this continues to get more prevelant as the visits continue, bilbo falling asleep mid conversation when frodo visits him next/not coming to the wedding. and finally sleeping on the back of his horse when he and elrond visit frodo in the shire. gandalf also comments that bilbo had the ring much longer that frodo and thus this is why his life was stretching so long and frodos is not.
Don’t mind me; i’m only getting my thoughts together before i watch the video:
Isn’t Gollum already aged? And in the books, there were many more years between Bilbo’s departure and Frodo arriving in Rivendell.
In the books 17 years go by between the time that Bilbo gives Frodo the ring and leaves the Shire and their reunion in Rivendell. It says nothing about Bilbo looking older. Only after the ring is destroyed does Bilbo's true age seem to quickly catch up with him. The obvious explanation would be that ring either arrest or greatly slows down the aging process while in an individual's possession. Once they lose possession of it the aging process continues at its natural rate from that point. It is only after its destruction and all that was wrought with it unmade that the individual reverts to their true age. The statements about Bilbo looking and feeling stretched thin were in regard to the slow process of being turned into a wraith. The ultimate fate of any owner eventually.
Another great descriptive video Matt thank you.
Makes me wonder just why the dark lord would have put an element of aging on the ring when he created it. It also makes me wonder about all the other magical elements that the 1 ring possessed.
In lotr one is made aware of some of the powers of the 3 but the true full power of the 1 remains somewhat elusive.
Perhaps a video on the exact powers of the rings would be useful.
Did Sauron need to extend his life for example ?
Your explanation would be most enlightening
As Sauron is an Ainur, he had no need to extend his lifespan, as he was already immortal; however, the primary purpose of the Rings of Power was to preserve the realms and powers of their bearers, and the One Ring was no exception to this. As such, the use of a Ring of Power would preserve (and thus prolong) the lifespan of a mortal. However, as the Rings of Power were intended to be used by immortals, such as Sauron (in the case of the One Ring) or the Elves (in the case of the other nineteen Rings), the preservation effect was dangerous to mortals, given that immortals live at once in both the Seen and the Unseen realms. Over time, mortals bearing a Ring of Power would become wraiths, as their physical bodies fade and wither away, with their souls becoming bound to the Ring they bore. Hobbits and Dwarves would not fade however, due to their nature; instead, with Dwarves it simply amplified their greed and anger, often causing great calamity and ruin in the process - and Hobbits, who are unconcerned with the affirs of the wider world, just seem to live longer. However, Hobbits who bear a Ring of Power seem to become incredibly fixated upon it (moreso than other mortals), as well as developing seperation anxiety and paranoid tendiencies.
I've summarised it here, however there is a whole series of videos on the powers of the Rings, which goes into more detail:
Three Rings for the Elven Kings under the Sky: ruclips.net/video/CH_hwIqeVJ0/видео.html
Seven for the Dwarf Lords, in their Halls of Stone: ruclips.net/video/g0LzuZb_FY8/видео.html
Nine for Mortal Men, Doomed to Die: ruclips.net/video/-JQK9GjcrW4/видео.html
One for the Dark Lord, on His Dark Throne, in the land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie: ruclips.net/video/kxMO8xTLeoc/видео.html
What if the rings worked as Sauron had intended? In the end Mairon's demise was predetermined, but I like the approach still.
What about Sam? Did it not age him as well? He did possessed it for just so little time though it is possession of it.
What happens to the Ringwraith's rings after the destruction of the One Ring. Would they be safe (and powerful) to use, without the corrupting connection? Or were they consumed along with the One Ring?
The destruction of the one ring must have been quite a thing from Bilbo's perspective. If, once the ring was gone, he was experiencing the ageing of years over the space of a few months, he must have felt the effects of age arriving far more rapidly than most individuals do - even if he didn't notice any other clues that the ring was destroyed. (I don't recall of he experienced any feeling of loss or other "psychic"/psychological impression of the ring's destruction.)
Almost immediately, he must have felt the twinges of age creeping upon him much more rapidly than they had done to that point. I guess that would have been bittersweet for him.
Very interesting insights ✨
Best channel name on this topic ever🤣