Leaving my Airline as a 12 Year Airbus Captain to start all over again, Worth the Risk?
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- Опубликовано: 22 мар 2024
- I've been (Happily) employed at my airline since 2013, I have been a Captain since 2015 but now face the tough decision of having to potentially start over again. The Airline industry is very cyclical and since the pandemic, market forces are putting significant pressure on the ULCC/LCC Airlines. The changing market, RTX engine issues and oversaturated markets are making it a tough go for some airlines. I had hoped for a successful JetBlue/Spirit merger, the Department of Justice and Judge Young Have enjoined the merger, so that is no longer a possibility. The Choice is simple, yet not an easy one. Stay or Go? Give up more than a decade of seniority as a Senior Captain at a small airline to start over again? or stick it out and hope for the best?
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Hi Joe. In September of 2000 I was a newly minted private pilot and you checked me out in a 172 at Wagner Aviation. I live in Greenville SC but I was up in Jersey and took my buddy and his son down the Hudson River VFR corridor sightseeing after you checked me out in N6888H. You left a lasting impression on me after the short checkout flight as a great young CFI. I really enjoyed flying with you.
I went on to get my commercial and CFI shortly after and then 9/11 happened. I ended up finally getting on at MESA in 06 after a 4 years of instructing, flying cancelled checks Barons and 210’s and contract UPS freight in EMB 110’s. The housing crash happened in 08 and I was furloughed at Mesa. After a year out of flying completely I got a job flying ISR in Africa on a DOD contract. That position led me to getting typed in a Global Express in 2012 where I went on to fly for a Charter operator for 11 years. I became a company lead Captain and Check airman on the Global and had an overall great job that I liked but I had legacy airline aspirations and I wasn’t getting any younger. Long story short, I’m older than you and I made the jump to American last March and I love it. I wish I would’ve done it sooner but I was like you making good money and I had some status at my former employer that kept me there longer than I should’ve been. Good luck on whatever you decide.
Thank you Roger! AA seems like
The best option for seniority progression for sure.
Oh God. Wagner. I still get nightmares about working there 😬.
As a Spirit pilot, we need to hear this. Thanks Joe and hope to see you out there.
If it’s any consolation at all, I’m a brand new Commercial Pilot (February 2023), and finishing up my Multi/IFR in the hope of being able to get on with an air ambulance operation here in Canada…oh yeah, I’m 64 in two months! There’s always going to be tough decisions to make, you get to decide based on your own personal experience and with the available information…sounds to me like you’re making an informed decision that will initially cost you, but in the end should benefit you and your family in a million ways! Best of luck Joe!
Thanks!!
Look at the bright side, the older we are in class, the higher our seniority, lol
@@Bananasssssssss Not unless you go with Delta, which goes off your last 4 of social in an ascending order!!! LOL
@@sofloemir haha, I didn’t mean in class! But yeah that would help! Lol
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Really gives all a great perspective as to what it’s like out there. I’m sure you will do well with whatever you decide.
Having lived through 9/11 and Bankruptcy at a major airline I know exactly what you’re going through. Importantly, you’re placing emphasis on your family. Not only spending time with your family but providing for them.
It’s a tough call. I’d gather as much information as you can and make the impossible determination of your situation in 5-10 years at Spirit and other carriers. I can tell you at United we’re going to have a lot of retirements over the next 10 years.
Regarding stress in the cockpit, control what you can control and try to forget the rest. I know, easier said than done. Once that cockpit door is closed avoid the distractions and have as much fun as you can. The 2000’s were financially brutal but I always look back at the great times I had with my fellow pilots.
All the best.
Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated! Also an interesting point about the 2000s and the financial brutality. The toughest times have a way of creating bonds and memories that you’ll remember forever!
Great video, Joe. It is refreshing to see "real life" on social media. Everything isn't always sunshine and lollipops. Having gone trough a career detour (medical field) in my 50's, I can relate to what you are going through. Prayers that it will all work out for you. Love the cub videos (I miss my '46 J3).
Thank you! I told my wife, no matter what happens, can’t ever get rid of the Cub! Lol
I echo your conundrum almost exactly. For me, I love the freedom of where I work now, do I want to give that up because maybe it won’t work out? Or wait til it’s taken from me in the off chance the doors close. Keep us updated. Best of luck to you sir.
Will do!
Thanks for sharing. 34 yo two kids, 800 TT CFI’ing my way. Timing seems to be everything in this industry.
Thanks for the hangar chat Joe. I wish you all the best in your decisions. Please keep us posted.
Thank you!
Great information. You really summed up the last 25 years of airline hiring and mergers.
Thanks for sharing! You are so right about timing and breaks. I’m old, but I’ve only been in private aviation so I don’t have any sage advice. I really enjoy what you bring to the aviation community! I wish you well in whatever direction you end up going!!!
Thank you! I appreciate it
Interesting video. Been where you are at. A wise man once advised me " Always stick with what you know". Experience is everything. Good luck.
Hey Joe, thanks for opening up and sharing what’s happening! I’m 23 and have my CFI checkride in a month and love all of your content! Best of luck with whatever decision you end up making! Prayers for you and the family!
Thanks! And good luck on the ride!
5 year A320 ULCC CA, 5k hours. Just got the TBNT from UA and crickets from AA/DL/WN. Its getting tough out there.
talk about timing, one year ago they were taking EVERYONE
....oof. I'm upset about this as well man. It's bewildering to be in this position today. I remember the 1/4 profits showing 32.7% NET profit. Unbelievable. Now we fly full airplanes and lose money. This is what happens when you borrow against EVERYTHING.
Thanks for giving a window into this thought process. Best of luck as you make your way to the best decision for you and your family!
Thank you! Much appreciated!
Thanks for the real talk, Joe. Interesting stuff. I’m 47, new CA with a smaller legacy and constantly re-think things. It’s great that you’re putting your experience and perspective out there.
Thank you!
I made a change after 8 years seniority as well. It’s tough! But whatever is best in the long run! Aviation changes so much, none of us have a crystal ball!
I am a relatively recent subscriber to your channel and greatly appreciate your content and particularly these chats you do from time to time.
As a low time midlife pilot thinking about supplementing my income with a part time aviation gig this video was particularly helpful if only to get a better idea of the career progression beyond what interests me. Thanks again!
My pleasure! Let me know if you have any other specific questions, glad to help answer them!
Tough position to be in for sure. My honest opinion is that Spirit isn’t going anywhere. If you’re happy there, stick it out. The Fed didn’t want Spirit fares going away so they blocked your merger. I suspect if Spirit got into a real financial predicament, then the Fed will bail them out for the same reason. Just my opinion.
Hearing you describe your early career definitely brought back memories. I too was stuck in the right seat of an RJ during the Great Recession. No movement at all. Had my apps out at the few places that were even hiring trying to make any kind of forward progression occur. Spirit and Atlas I think were the two hiring then, but I never heard back. Ended up staying put, upgraded and hired at a Legacy in 2017. About half way up the seniority list today.
I’m walking talking proof that it’s better to be lucky than good. What a strange industry.
Great video Joe everything in life happens for a reason it’s up to use to see the good in ever situation in life.
Your family time is 💯 the most important aspect of life the legacy you leave behind is the ultimate goal.
Your beautiful family doesn’t care about how many hours you have in the air or how much money you make .
All they want and need is time and memories with there dad 🙏🏽🥰.
One of the reasons i started watching your video’s is because you take your girls flying and the smiles on the little one’s face’s brings so much joy to me ❤.
You seem to be a great father,husband and man , just keep that first and the money second and every thing in life will be just fine i promise you.
Keep up the great work i’m proud of you and what you do brother🙏🏽
Thank you for that Robert! I really appreciate it.
Outstanding analysis Joe weighing pros and cons! Best of luck to you and your peers in the challenges you are facing. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks Chris! Appreciate it!
Thanks Joe. I've being flying since 1998. 1 company bankruptcy, 1 layoff due to strike and 1 layoff during covid. I had to restart from zero at least 3 times. But look, you still have 20 years ahead. It's a lot of time, not to late to restart again. Sometimes is better to make your choices than let the others force you to choose again. Now maybe you can have demands (base for example). Good luck
Perfectly summed up! Joe, you really have your act together! Thanks for the sharing, I'm sure it will help numerous pilots out with their decision making! Clear Skies and Tailwinds!
Thank you! Sincerely appreciate that!
Hey!! New to the channel and I’m hooked.
I feel like I could ask you 10,000 questions since I’m only a couple years (and kids) behind you. But I’ll just say it was great to hear your story. I’m trying to make a change now to get to aviation as a career before 45 without quitting my job so I have a lot of these same concerns, trading experiences with my kids to get higher on the seniority ranking faster. Different circumstances for sure but this video really resonated with what I’m feeling too.
Best of luck with whatever decision you make.
Thank you! and ask away! love to shed some light on the career and the lifestyle. I post mostly Gen Av flying videos but will make some more about airline flying that can hopefully tie into General Aviation.
@@Bananasssssssss I think the algorithm connected me to you because I had been searching Cubs or LSAs for time building purposes. 😂
In my mind, all 3 of my kids are going to get addicted to aviation too so having a plane in the family just makes sense. GA videos are my happy place after a long PHAK and FAR/AIM study session.
I really appreciate that you open up about your situation. This is an example of what YT content should really be about. Often times people don't share the reality of things and everything always looks so perfect from their end. With the kind of character and experience you have Im really positive things will work out greatly for you and your family no matter the decision you make. Thanks for being an example as I one day will share the skies with you at an airline. All the best brother🤗.
Thanks for that!, appreciate it
You really did pour your heart out. Love and positivity to you. You got this Joe! 🫶
See ya soon buddy!
I know what you are going through. I left my regional airline after 21 years. I had a great job position in the training department. The schedule was great, I was home every night, I was on the senior pay scale with the instructor override, I enjoyed the work. I am now at one of the big four. It was hard to leave but I'm happy I made the switch. It's a decision only you can make but I would say do what your gut tells you to do.
Joe, thank you very much for your frank conversation and insights. Personally, I’m too old to consider an airline career. However, my girlfriend is starting flight school with an aim towards earning her ATP. What I learn from you and others in the industry is invaluable in helping me mentor her through this process. Safe travels and Godspeed!
Thank you! It’s a wild industry but wouldn’t trade it for anything! (Well, most anything, lol)
Keep reaching out and building your network is always solid advice and critical to our industry. I opted away from my dream of being a United Captain and love flying a Gulfstream around for a lovely family. That too will come to an end someday so I know I’ll be reaching back into the who you know bucket for help.
Thanks Mike!
Thanks for the trip down memory lane! Why is my eye twitching?
I’m 62 this summer. I’ve worked for 5 airlines. I’ve left airlines and regretted it and I’ve stayed at airline jobs and regretted it. The only advice I have is start the process of looking. Make sure logbooks are up to date, apply at the big 4 or 5, hire a consultant and get ready to interview. Go to job fairs and network. These things take time and if you wait till the decision is made for you, it’s going to be really stressful and take a lot of time. Taking some action now will add some sense of control. Plus, an interview at a legacy might make you feel more comfortable in making the leap. You can always say no.
Great advice and exactly what I'm currently working on. I have some friends who havent updated logbooks in a decade, lol. I can't imagine having to do that
Well said Captain. I work along side you in the yellow bus and you nailed it. I'll be leaving for another carrier soon and the only reason is the uncertainty. Thank you for speaking out.
Thanks Travis! And good luck on the new chapter!!
Joe, I had this video somehow randomly come up in my feed. I don’t subscribe to your channel but some of your background sounds somewhat similar to mine although you’re a couple of years behind me. I got hired at Continental Express at the beginning of 2000. We weren’t yet ExpressJet because at the time we were wholly owned by Continental with a flow through agreement. I was single and 27 years old when I started there. The first day of class they take us down to Continental HQ in downtown Houston and take us up to the boardroom and sit us all down and tell us congratulations you’re all going to be Continental Airlines pilots in a few years. Your career is all set and you have nothing to worry about. I thought I had it made. At the time, you could literally come out of new hire class and IOE and go straight back and upgrade to Beech 1900 Captain right away, Brazilia Captain in 6 months, ATR Captain in 12 months and I upgraded to ERJ Captain in 18 months. Summer of 2001 I’m in the middle of upgrade and had just gotten my United and American paper applications in the mail. I had in’s at both Airlines and thought to myself, I’ll fill these applications out in the fall once I’m done with upgrade. I took my Captain’s type ride September 10, 2001…..Anyway, I completed upgrade and was a Captain for all of about 3 months before I was downgraded to First Officer again. Every F/O I flew with was getting furloughed. That wonderful flow through agreement to Continental became a flow back agreement and furlough mitigation for Continental mainline pilots. I moved backward down the now ExpressJet seniority list for 3 years. I seriously considered getting out of Aviation entirely by around 2004. Once Continental started recalling, I moved back up the list at a slower pace but eventually was finally able to hold Captain again in late 2004. It was at that point that Continental decided that once the last of the mainline pilots was recalled to Continental that they would terminate the flow through agreement with ExpressJet. All they would commit to was a preferential interview with Continental sometime in the future. In the meantime Continental was interviewing and hiring pilots from all the other regionals not named ExpressJet and hiring pilots with less total time and experience than me. I would go into my Chief Pilot and ask when my preferential interview was and the answer was always “we don’t know.” I even said to them that they could keep their preferential interview and that I would apply like any other off the street pilot. They told me I wasn’t allowed to do that. I said why not? They said because you have a preferential interview. I said great, when? They kept saying we don’t know, but Continental won’t interview you until your number comes up in their internal stack of pilots and we don’t know what year that will be. I gave up completely on Continental and in 2005 put all my effort into getting hired by the next best Airline that was hiring at the time and that was Southwest. Keep in mind that the big 6 at the time all still had pilots on furlough from 9/11, so the only Airlines hiring at the time were Continental, Southwest, UPS, FedEx, JetBlue, and AirTran. Southwest was the best of what was out there at the time and luckily for me I got hired there in late 2005 and started class in 2006. I tell you that long story to say that I know what you’re going through and I can relate even though I know I’ve been very fortunate in my career. I know that the decision to leave Spirit after 12 years is not an easy one. I really don’t give career advise to fellow pilots since it’s such a personal decision that is best decided by you and your wife and family. I don’t know where you currently live and what domiciles are nearby so that you can hopefully keep from commuting since the only thing worse than starting over at the bottom of the seniority list is commuting to weekend reserve and living in a hotel or crash pad. I wish that you had left 3 years ago, but none of us has a crystal ball to know what’s going to happen in the future. I know at Southwest, we’ve stopped new hire classes at the end of April for the rest of the year. Our’s like Spirit is related to Aircraft shortages. Good luck with your decision, I know it’s a decision you wish you didn’t have to make at this point in your career but rather a decision that’s being forced upon you.
Thank you for sharing! Appreciate the insight. I remember hearing about those days when I started at XJT, I think you were a “PIG”? Lol from what I remember. I tell people How rough it was during 9/11, but you lived it for sure. Glad it all worked out! Hopefully I’ll have some more information in the next few months to help make my decision. Cheers!
It’s like the saying goes, the world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows. And what you spoke about relates to a book I’m reading called Freight Dog by Kimber C. Turner, who wrote the book to talk about the darker side of aviation as an industry and a business.
I’m a new private pilot, I got my PPL back on Jan 11th of this year, and I really want to fly for the airlines someday. And I’m sure at some point in my career I’ll experience something like this, and everything you spoke about gave me a lot of thoughts to think about if this were to ever happen to me.
Also, I’m going to be at Sun N’ Fun from Friday the 12th through Sunday the 14th. Really excited for it!
Yeah, listen it’s a great career (for the most part) but a lot of what you see on Social Media is all “Sunshine & Roses” and I just want everyone to know it’s pretty normal to feel unsure or not know if you’re making the right call etc. I’ll be at SnF Wed-Sunday!
@@Bananasssssssss that’s life in general with every career too, every day’s going to bring some form of adversity. In my opinion though, adversity makes life more fun, because it allows me to learn from something.
Hope to see you there.
I’ve been through more reorgs than I can count as an engineer, and very much understand the trepidation when it comes to a major shift that impacts family life. I’d love to transition towards professional aviation in my 40s, but my financial and family responsibilities make that an unlikely scenario. Whatever you do I’m sure it will be the best thing for you and your family. Hang in there man.
Your video is spot on. A lot of where you wind up in this business is based on timing and luck. I was sitting in recurrent groundschool on the RJ on Sept 11. I had transitioned from Brasilia Capt to CRJ Capt the year before, and had just hit 1000PIC, with the goal being SWA. Lots of my buddies had recently gotten hired at a legacy carrier. When the first plane hit, someone came into the classroom and said "A plane just hit the World Trade Center" Back then, the company made a big deal of turning off your phone during class, and some guys didn't even have a cellphone, so none of us understood what was really going on. We were thinking it was some idiot in a Cessna flying down the VFR corridor. When the second plane hit, someone came in and said we were all to evacuate the building and go home. That's when we realized what was really going on, and started thinking about the implications for our careers. The vast majority of my friends who had gone to legacies were furloughed. The lucky ones found a job at a regional, but like you said, went to the bottom of the seniority list. MD80 or 737 FO to turboprop FO. A few wound up flying freight. I was one of the luckiest, because I still had a job, didn't get downgraded, and could pay the bills. Fast forward 3.5 years and I'm lucky enough to be called for an interview at my dream airline. With 8 years at the regionals and 3 years in the training department, I was literally the lowest time guy in the interview group. LOTS of USAir, UAL, ATA guys with thousands of hours of 737 time, plus a bunch of military Stan/Eval guys. Rock stars, all. Comparing that to what hiring has been like recently is a good illustration of just how cyclical this business is. I agree with you 100%, I would never begrudge someone today's smoother/faster career track, and of course I would have jumped all over it had it been available to us back then, because we all know that timing and luck are a huge part of how your career goes.
Really is wild how everyones experiences vary so much. Hopefully I can make it through here, but with hiring slowing down a bit and the process taking some time, I hope to have some more information the next few months. Who knows, maybe SWA buys us!, ha
Hi Joe, I went through this mid career “crisis” during Covid flying for Emirates. Lost the job, no other options with kids having to move countries, it was a mess. Now transitioned to North America flying business jets and Im happy! Best of luck on your next moves. You will be fine!
Thank you! And welcome back 😁
I'm not an airline pilot. I'm a mechanic in the Bay Area for a rail agency. I changed classifications 5 years in (although in my early-mid 20's) and lost all my seniority. Which fucking sucked. Got moved far away from home, shitty hours. I made it work. I actually got into flying because of location I was sent to. Met a dude in the shop that owned a plane and the rest is history. I'm now working towards my CFI and are an airplane owner myself. So what seemed like a deal breaker at first ended up changing my life for the better.
I would do it again if I had to. I wouldn't want to, but I would. I don't have kids yet, but if I did I'd still do it (I believe). Especially now that I have seniority to hold a location close to home (took 5 years). We need money to survive. I got a big pay bump changing jobs that has afforded me aviation. I think it makes more sense for you to bite the bullet now and go to a legacy airline, become a captain in 6 months, and take the seniority hit. In 5 years you will be happy you did it. You'll be a lot more upset about Spirit going under and being out of a job vs having shitty seniority for 5 years. That's my two cents. Good luck!
We are the exact same age with nearly identical stories. The only difference is I now deliver the world on time. My airline has encouraged us to go work for a regional. I can’t thank you enough for showing the conundrum that many in our generation are facing. Starting again at our age is a terrifying proposition. But believe me, I’ve considered it. I will say this, Joe. Starting over again will suck, but the legacy airlines need you. Every day thousands of hours and decades of experience walk out the door at these airlines. Although I’m happy for the 26 year old that is a 757 captain, I know that he/ she is not very well seasoned. It makes me dang nervous as I fly on these airlines several times a month. I wish you the best of luck in your decision. It is not an easy one to make.
Thanks Eric!. I have an old ExpressJet friend who went to Airways back in 2013 and left maybe 2 years ago for FedEx, I'm sure he may be having some mental debates with himself, lol. That's just it though, so hard to to tell what the right move is.
Joe, fellow XJT guy here, '06-'15. Currently at United. I wish I had a solid opinion for you, but you basically hit all of what would be my concerns in your video. I will say that I don't think there is a wrong choice. The future is unknown and we can only do the best we can with what life provides us. Good Luck! - Jaden
Thanks Jaden! Appreciate it.
I am in a similar situation with my career. One thing I am noticing is I need to be around for my kids while they are around because before you know will be grown up with families of their own. I relate to the situation you are in.
So true. My daughters are 10, 8, 5,5. Such an impactful time
24:10 that burns. Just at 1450hrs but had my PPL in march 2020. BUT….our priorities are similar and I wouldn’t give up the time at home. It DOES sting though lol
Thanks for the video, Joe.
It's just how wild the industry changes and how different the hiring is every few years.
7 year FLL based Spirit Captain. Looking at downgrade now. 40 years old and mirror a lot of the same things you said... for me, first lesson cancelled 9/11... had to wait close to a year and a half for an open CFI position after graduation in '05. Hired by SkyWest in '08 and wasn't offered a class date for 26 months after the CJO. By that time I was flying as a Hawker Captain...decided to keep my job with no commute and more pay than right seat in a CRJ, but got pigeon holed in 91/135 for a long time. It's daunting to considered starting over, particularly now that the recent hiring wave is clearly on the backside. For now, I'm sticking it out - frustrated to be sure - but sticking it out.
Speaking as a Private Pilot only..,.but I do have J-3 time and. Checked out in a PA-18.......I just retired from United Airlines after 44years 4 months and it was a roller coaster ride for sure......... furloughs,station closings, bankruptcy, and if course our merger. I like the way you mentioned that family is where you want to be. I never wanted to fly for a living. I was a fueler, load planner, res agent, ticket agent, etc. I worked at PHD,TUL,DAY,ATL,IAD and finally RDU. My point is that each time I had to move...... It was to be closer to family. Being junior sucks for sure...... But your heart is in the right place......oh and don't forget to pray about.........👍✝️🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thanks for sharing! and congrats on the retirement!!
I’m a new PPL/IR, but for 25 years have been a corporate reorganization / Ch 11 professional. IMHO, stick it out. If Spirit ultimately is required to reorganize, there’s a very good chance that the most important terms of your CBA will remain intact. Also a pretty good chance in a reorganization that operations are merged into another carrier (as opposed to a cessation / liquidation) and your union will have a prominent seat at the negotiating table.
Alternatively, you could pivot and become the US’s most in-demand tailwheel instructor! Ha! I’d definitely sign up to have you teach me those saweeeeet three-point Cub landings.
Thanks for your insight! It’s greatly appreciated! I kinda do like the idea of TW instructing full time 😂
Thanks for the vid joe. In my first year at a wholly owned regional and realizing the plan i had 9 months ago is already out the window. Flexibility is key i guess
No Problem Ryan!. I tell everyone, this industry changes all the time but looks like you have a lot of time on your side! The good news too is regional pay and contracts are SIGNIFICANTLY better than what they used to be, so at least you have that while you plan your next move.
Thanks!
Selfishly I want you to come to the widget because I’ve loved all of your content and your Cub videos always bring a smile to my face (I have a Zlin Savage). I wish I had some sage advice for you but like you said the uncertainty is the nature of the beast. I’ve been at my airline for 26 years…barely missed getting furloughed. Got mired down on the 60 to 65 ruling. We are called Dead Zoners. But I’m grateful. Timing. I’d rather be lucky than good, I guess. But I’ve flown with people who have started over here from other airlines. They seem happy. You live in the NE, right? NYC could be your base and your seniority would rise so quickly! We have 2nd year captains there. I’m sorry for the stress this is causing you and your family. Good luck with your decisions and thanks for sharing.
Thanks Michelle! Appreciate the insight, and yup! NJ so NYC based would be ideal
@@Bananasssssssss if you need any help or info please don’t hesitate to reach out. Maybe I’ll meet you in person at OSH! Come look for Sadie the Savage Cub and I camped out at the ultralight red barn 👍
@MichelleLovesToFly thank you! I will absolutely reach out if needed and will track ya down at Osh!
Joe, this was like someone telling me my career to me, we’re so parallel. Wagner,XJT, but B6 instead of spirit. If you would’ve talked to me the night before my B6 interview, I would’ve told you it was just prep for a legacy interview that everyone else seemed to get effortlessly. I had 1000 pic at Xjt, volunteered with ALPA and OBAP, clean record, no failures. Could not get a call anywhere. I threw my stuff at B6 twice, and they called and here I am junior EWR CA. I like to say I haven’t hit any home runs in my career. But a bunch of singles and doubles.
Wife and I talk about the instability a lot because everything B6 has tried to get ahead, with the exception of Europe, has failed. I feel for you guys, and completely understand your position.
Hoping brighter days ahead! We’ll see. I really was looking forward to the merger too 😭
I retired from Spirit last May as I turned 65. I was an air traffic controller prior to my flying career. I was DFW based FO and upgraded 6 months before I aged out. You look really familiar. Were you an instructor? Spirt was really good to me. I loved and miss the flying. After Covid was over it seemed to me that management forgot how to run an airline. Then when the mergers came along it appeared management sat back and bided their time waiting for the merger.
Congrats on the retirement! I was the Pilot Assistance Chair for a while and did some other Union work. You may have seen me in a few emails, lol
Legacy FO here, also a product of the lost decade. 2007 hire at ASA at 23, worked there for 7 years, never could upgrade, went part 91 corporate for 8 years then a legacy a couple years ago. If you had some other sources of income to keep you afloat I’d say seriously consider a move to a legacy. If the airline is 100% of your income and you totally rely on it that makes the move a lot harder. Legacy wide body FO’S easily make $300k+ if you try at all, which is why legacy narrow body captain is so junior. My recommendation is pursue a legacy right NOW and make the decision when you have a CJO in hand. Without a CJO in hand there isn’t a lot to contemplate. You’re beyond qualified for any airline job out there so I’d say put those apps out there and your heart will make the decision for you with that CJO in hand. The PLUG (#17,319) on the Delta seniority list is about to turn 46 years old. You aren’t the only one faced with this decision.
Came up the same way you did but different time. Got to a Legacy via mergers. Make the jump to a legacy (AA being last choice) forget about what a career dream used to look like . Get a good base, always bid the best lifestyle position you can. There are plenty of us soon to retire and you’ll move up. Get that legacy seniority number and enjoy the ride.
On the bright side, you’re probably the most popular person on social media, love the content.
My Daughter just asked me if I was friends with "Mr Beast", lol
Those are tough decisions unique to airline pilots. Here’s your positives if you decide to pull the trigger - your family is settled and you live near two major domicile hubs, EWR & PHL. So, even if you’re junior for a while, you’re not commuting on top of it. You can sit reserve at home. Also, you can enjoy some faster seniority by staying in the right seat while your kids are younger. (I did that after an 11-year bounce back to the military while sucking up a double furlough following 9-11.) You can’t buy back lost time with your kids with your captain’s raise. In the end, I remember a captain tell me once that no matter what happens, the secret to being a successful airline pilot is - “live a simple life & keep your first wife”. Best of luck to you.
Thank you! All good points!
Hi Joe. Hope you read this lol. Little speech from someone going through something similar to you. I'm 39 today... I started flying in 2006-2009 where I changed my career decision from aviation to law enforcement military. I have been a police officer for over 12 years and have put myself in a pretty senior position. Right when you started Spirit, I started my career as a police officer. it is now 2024 and I'm getting back into aviation. you are few years ahead of me. By the time you start at a legacy is when I will probably end up at a legacy... I still need to get a 135 job to build hours to ATP and get on with a regional... I don't know if I will stay at a regional and make captain and have a great life out of FLL (flying ATRs I'm sure you've seen) or build few thousand hours and within 2-3 years, head over to a legacy. I will tell you just like you, my goal would be to fly a wide body internationally... I know in our age, whether it's changing career and starting from beginning and our family having to endure it, or being in the same career path but changing companies, we will always wonder "what if I did?" if we don't do it. you and I both know legacies are hiring like crazy (friend just got hired by DAL & AAL at the same time and he picked DAL... Could you have ever imagined that?) and you will get in a class this year at United. Within a couple years you will make captain and eventually be able to hold. They are retiring captains left and right. it will take a few years and you'll be in a very similar position to where you are at. You need to go for it. You won't regret it. I'm local to you and feel free to reach out.
Appreciate it but just a few things. My goal when I was younger was to be a WB CA, right now it isn’t much of a priority. Also, legacy hiring is slowing down significantly. UAL has “temporarily “‘stopped hiring and recently offered leaves, Delta is slowing down hiring as well. AA hasn’t hired as many as they said they were planning to and the current state of the economy may further slow things down. Lastly, I’ll never have the seniority I have here at Spirit at any legacy. Mathematically it’s impossible. I’m not saying all of these things matter if Spirit goes under, just kind of thinking out loud. Appreciate the insight and stay safe out there!
Bold move cotton. You will do great. I was looking forward to working with you again.
I change my mind every day, lol. Getting wild out here, lol
Appreciate the candid thoughts you have regarding an industry I'm just getting into. Not that my $0.02 is valuable or you haven't heard of it before, but here's mine. Consider some other positions and what your goals could be in the future. What I mean by that, is look at folks that have grandchildren and how much the prioritize their time spent with their grandkids. You have four children now, and have been able to spend a good amount of time with them presumably due to your Spirit seniority.. Perhaps one to two years of being Junior at a Legacy won't be as bad as it used to be. You might not have AS MUCH time off, but you still have half a month at home. Sitting reserve isn't what it used to be, either. That sacrifice might not be so bad for two years while all these pilots retire and you get back to a nice cushion while you still have the choice. What happens when you wait too long to make the jump and it's not a choice you get to make because it's made for you. Priorites always change, and I get that, but if your dream was to be that wide-body captain, why not make progress towards that goal? It could be an amazing example to your children to pursue their dreams while setting yourself up to be able to take care of their children so they have a similar opportunity to do so later in life. Anyway, I'm a brand new CFI as a second career as I'm retiring from enlisted service, and just dreaming of a job flying so I can have a little plane and grass strip, too. In the end, we'll all be alright. Don't forget that your real cost is missing out on the opportunities you want in this life. Pick your priorities and get after the top ones. You know you'll be just fine, and I look forward to see which choices you make (so will your kids that can grow up to watch this). Make that person you were 10 years ago and the person you will be in 10 years from now proud. :) Good Luck!
Steve, (Thanks for your service!) and all really good points. I think Widebody CA was the goal/dream when I was younger, now it doesn't really matter much in terms of "wants and needs" if that makes sense.
Hey Im a Colgan-ite! Lots of us stayed through 9e and went to Widget.
Hi Joe, I intended to comment sooner but "life" got in the way.. Re. Leaving Spirit vs staying: I "aged out"/retired from commercial aviation in 2018. I ended my career as a 40 year "Freight Dog" starting with The Flying Tiger Line and ending up as a Long Haul B777 Captain with FedEx. I was very lucky and had a great career. There were times in my life when I had questions similar to what you're asking yourself now. Regarding that; my best advise is to "go with your gut" because as you've aptly said, "you won't know if it was the right move until you retire". Even then, it may never be absolute... It would seem that Spirit has a lot of potential to grow and merge or be absorbed by someone else. Inversely, if you see a better deal and you like it - take it. It's truly a crap shoot either way. The bottom line is you gotta be happy to get out of bed every day and go to work flying and living your life in general. Of course the money is a consideration but your passion and happiness as an aviator is a paramount concern. If you're happy, the money will eventually follow in some form. I hope that helps. If you want talk more drop me line at "ckpena31@gmail.com" and we'll go from there.
I too own a might J3-65, 1946 Cub. So from one aviator brotha to anotha; stay cool my friend and thanks for the great videos.
Peace,
Chris
Thank you Christopher! Appreciate the insight! And congrats on the somewhat recent retirement!
Joe, I feel your pain, I left a US Legacy and went overseas post 2001, it was not something that was done but turned out to be the best years of my career. Things got lousy after covid and I came back to the USA and went to work for something that looked promising but turned out to be not what they said.
At the moment you have no decision to make, apply elsewhere as it takes time, and see what happens. If nobody calls you never have to say coulda shoulda... If they do, and you get offered a job, then you have to make a decision. But it will be six months from now and you will see more of the direction things are going in.
Whatever choice you make, the one golden rule is, you made that choice with the information and best guesses you had that day, never go back and feel bad if Future Joe knew more. I sure wish I was a bunkie flying international and home flying my Cub on days off. Never home and my Cub is broken...
BTW, Love your awesome Cub videos
Really one of the most insightful replies! Really appreciate it and you make a few great points, especially about not having a decision to make just yet. Thank you!
I'm in a similar boat as a 33 year old 767 ca at an acmi. I know the grass is probably greener but it's hard to make the jump and start over on the back side of a wave. Job security is probably the biggest factor to me considering if you get furloughed at a major you'll probably get called back at some point with the retirement numbers. Thanks for sharing your thoughts I know many of us are having to make a similar decision.
Very difficult decision for sure
Hi ya Joe, yes sir I’ve been having this same exact conversation these past few weeks with a great friend ( Capt with Spirit) of mine in the same spot. He LOVES IT and doesn’t want to leave but really not sure what to do at this moment.
I’m a corporate Capt flying Ultra long range corporate stuff for a private family. I’ve been flying since 11 yrs old (39years now) and professionally for over 25 years now and like anything in aviation airlines or corporate it can get to be a roller coaster.
No matter what part of aviation we are in there seems to always be challenges for sure!! During 2009-2011 I had and lost 4 captain positions due to the “2008” crash and flight departments closed. It Can get Pretty scary very quickly.
Thank you for sharing your story! You will land ( no pun intended) on your feet.
I would love to meet ya at SNF 24. I’ll be flying my Mooney up on Tuesday morning and staying til Sunday camping for the week. If you would like to connect let me know.
A big thanks to you for your vids!! Capt country Crock Keep buttering that bread in that beautiful J3.
Absolutely love them!
Hey! I'll track ya down for sure. I get in that Wednesday morning and then leave Sunday so plenty of time to connect!
@@Bananasssssssss perfect!!
Hi there! I totally understand how you feel... I'm making the jump from 91 to 121-AAL. After 18 years as a corporate pilot.. I have 20 years left and hoping for the best! FYI, hope to get the Bus..
Nice! from all the guys and girls I've flown with who were 91 prior to 121 you're going to love it! with 20 years left you have a good shot at being able to hold the Bus from what the recent class drops look like!.
@@Bananasssssssss hoping for the best! See you around! Good luck to you and stay positive! Shit happens for a reason!!
Go for it Joe, embrace the suck. You will prevail and come out better for it in the end. Oh and now I dont feel so bad not flying my Champ, cuz the weather up here in Boston has been terrible as well.
I was in Boston last week and yeah. It wasn’t that pleasant 😂😂.
Seniority is everything. You really don’t want to be at the bottom of a seniority list right now.
I’m 8 years in at NK and feel the same way you do. It’s been awesome but I’m nervous
I "Think" or my gut tells me we will be ok, probably just some pain ahead before it gets better. Gotta hit Alpha Floor first, lol
Love your honesty, hate what’s happening at NK, leave ASAP to any big 3 don’t look back, you will be right were you are now financially and and QOL wise if you go UAL widebody route in less that 3 years!!
Ehh I dunno. Im at $312/hr now and can hold weekends & Holidays off and have summer Vacations. May take me a little longer than 3 years. I may not have any of that here if we go under though, so yanno, lol
Tough deal and I’ve had my ups and downs entering the industry in 2012 at ExpressJet too and not being able to upgrade. But unlike those times you have options. If it were me I’d have a heart to heart with your wife and ultimately weigh the pros and cons of every option.
One thing to think about is if you want a more at home life is come to a legacy move to their main training center base and become a seniority list instructor. Just a thought thinking about yr situation. Best of luck.
Thanks! Too much family in Jersey to move but that is definitely the best gig around if one lives locally to the training center
I think someone might buy spirit for its planes. Spirit is now going after the US business and connecting airports for international flights at EWR BWI BOS LGA. If they wanted to fold instantly, they could have. If you want to fly those higher pay and international flights, jump airline. If you want to have a better work balance, stay. You give up something with either decision.
I think if you stick with spirit, either until the lights go out or you merge, you’ll land on your feet at a major or worst case regional. You’ll pay your bills. And within another year or two, you’ll make it to a legacy. And in the meantime, you can prioritize your current pay and quality of life with family. Definitely save up some money for the inevitable pay cut.
Good points and pretty much what my wife keeps telling me, lol
Great video, Joe, straight from the heart. You seem to have thought it out very well, so I am sure you will or already have made the correct decision. If you were in Europe, there would be a further consideration of redundancy pay based upon years of service. But that probably does not exist in the USA. It is a massive decision for you to make, and I pray that your final decision will be the correct one. Best of luck going forward. 🙏
Thank you!
Just stay at Spirit. Enjoy your seniority here until you can't anymore. We'll be fine...
That’s the worst advice I’ve ever heard
This is all your fault for getting half the airline hired, lol
Same boat here Joe. Wish we could just keep sailing. For now I’m staying put.
Hopefully some kind of Pratt news soon, or maybe earnings reports show some signs of hope etc. Hopefully the next few months will show us something
Not to mention if you make the jump then legacy furlough due to economy fall. I do still have 34 years left but all my peers are leaving grabbing that seniority at a legacy while I'm riding it out in hopes my seniority and QOL will improve after a temporary issue. Company needs to make swift and smart decisions to save our future. I have a family too but still on the low side of time before upgrade or to be competitive at legacy. Its a good thing I still have a Cherokee and an active CFI certificate.
I'm hoping it's temporary too. If we could make it through the other side of this, we'll be in pretty good shape, but who knows, my Crystal ball is IMC, lol
When EA folded in 1989, never considered going back after we walked, I vowed never to be in tua5 position again. USAFR full-time,retired there, flew Challengers and Globals, second pension, now retired. Seniority for all its benefits is a pair of handcuffs.
Agree 100% about the handcuffs.
I'd suck it up and make the jump to a legacy. Always better to try and steer your own direction than drift with the tide and hope the airline or company doesn't go under. Fortune favors the early birds.
Great point. Someone on one of my chats said we have the option of “certain misery, or misery of uncertainty” and. Love that quote.
Do it. Short term pain will be worth it and you will thank yourself eventually. The next 20 years will go faster than you realize too. The greater job security at a legacy alone the rest of your career would be worth it. Anything can happen even at the legacies but less likely there. Hang in there.
I am 91 - my son 67 was 1st officer American Air Age forced out - He is now finished School to train or test American Pilots - good money but once a pilot always a pilot ( as you know) He did private jet before this - now thinking of going back to private jet - Apparently money has increased in private jet, benefits etc. He worked his way up from regionals .- I was accepted for Air Force pilot training in 1952 - New pilots on freeze - I finished AF and Air Nat Guard MSGT 20 yrs retired. My son and I agree being a professional pilot is a little like "Show Business" - Fun but not always Secure - God Bless You and Your family - You have come this far - There is a "Good" future ahead - (Of course "AI" my be future pilots and crew and most all jobs} - Got to Pray About That - -
Thank you! And so true about “once a pilot, always a pilot “
I'm fairly junior at NK (almost a year on property) but close to holding a line hopefully. I appreciate your video. You seem like you'd be a cool CA to fly with. At the end of the day, pilots are idiots and the farthest thing from CEOs. Don't let these guys drive your decision making. There's a lot of noise out there and nothing solid to make a decision off of. Leaving now with the economic uncertainty and a potential recession looming to be at the bottom of a 20k pilot seniority list is also daunting. All in all, we fly very desirable planes and have the type rating to go with it. Would be a shame to see NK lose a pilot like you, I do believe better days are ahead. I sincerely believe all the doom and gloomers who know nothing and claim they do have gotten in our heads and we need to drown them out (misery needs company). There are plenty of people waiting for something solid to make a decision off of, not just a "gut" decision because the "wRitINg iS oN ThE wAlL". Not everyone is trying to get out like the three loudest people in every group chat would have you believe.
Well said Jack! Hopefully we can fly together. I know us ACY CA’s are unicorns but we’re out there 😂
@@Bananasssssssss I heard the ACY guys are the cool kids. Look forward to it!
@@Bananasssssssss may I ask if the closing of ACY is influencing your decision? Or will you wait to see what the new base will be since it will likely be driving distance to you as well?
Talk to the folks at Spitfire Elite Consulting. They are a great bunch of pilots. No need to talk to a counselor who is not a pilot when you can talk to a pilot who is not a counselor. :)
Funny you mention that! Listened to their podcast recently with Corey from AA. Was a fantastic!! Podcast and really informative. 👍🏻👍🏻
@@Bananasssssssss Corey seems so strict, like strictly business. He did an NGPA interview a couple of years ago. too, if you're looking for more from him.
@@danbuffington75 thanks! I’ll check it out
I’m one of your colleagues and I’m near the end of my career, which means I’ve got no decision to make. I’m flying this baby all the way in. BTW, Spirit is the best airline job I’ve ever had. Best schedule. Best people. Best equipment. Just the best. If we survive I’d encourage anyone to apply.
Really has been awesome and hope it continues. Hopefully we have some indications of some good news the next few earnings reports
Gotta know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em.
Life is a card game. I feel for you because with young children they definitely need you around. At then same time, the longer you sit the worse that situation could get. But maybe those fears aren’t justified. Look more people than ever want to fly. Not just here but worldwide, passenger demand keeps growing. Spirit may have to reorg but I don’t see them going anywhere. You have to make the decision and I think you already have. Family is most important to you. Those 10,000 hours of experience will always make you super qualified for any job opening if things go south at Spirit. Hold ‘em
Thanks for that. Much appreciated
Joe, United pilot here circa Continental ‘06 Agree with everything you said and luck and timing. I was just a year or 2 ahead of you in the business. Tough choice for sure! Can’t make a recommendation. Sounds like you are a 2 income household? That maybe a pretty big calculus in your decision making 🤷♂️.
Single Income, (for now, lol)
Did I understand you to say you could go straight to the left seat at UAL after probation? if so that takes away a whole lot of the pain of being on the bottom of the SO seniority list for a whole bunch of years. Plus the money sounds good. As a former Flying Tiger employee who didn’t see the light and get his pilots license until after I left the airline (my one big regret in life) I say go for it.
Yeah, currently UAL still has unfilled CA positions. It’s wild
JetBlue didn’t try very hard to renegotiate what it was going to do to make this happen. I think they view this as a blessing due to the inability for either company to make money. Usually, when the DOJ rejects mergers, the companies go back and look at what they can do to push it through (give up gates/slots, extending the timeline, divesting assets, etc). In reality, JetBlue discovered that Spirit stock had tanked since they made the offer and was going to massively overpay for a money loser. The frontier merger is not an option anymore because their offer was a mostly stock deal and their stock has also declined to a point where they can’t afford to make a move either.
JB isn't out of the woods. They needed the market share to remain relevant. (Even overpaying). The decision hurt more people than it helped.
@sennaha I agree with that. The price was high but they would have basically doubled in size. Whats frustrating is if the DOJ really cared about “monopoly’s” they should be breaking up the legacy airlines, not preventing two tiny ones from merging.
Hi Joe! I once had to make a career change as a young man. Went from a professional type job to where I got my hands dirty. Had all the questions similar to what you have now. However I realized that I was in the position that God wanted me to be. I learned to turn over my stress to God and to enjoy everyday for itself! I know someone that flies a beautiful cub and takes outstanding photography has a sensitivity for God! Also, my career change allowed me to fly and better care for my family! Prayers for you!
Thanks Jerry!
You got to much invested. Ride it out to the end and be nice to your F/O’s. If it goes bust, they will be senior to you at the next job. A different DOJ maybe around the corner…
Some of the best advice I ever got a long time Ago was that "Be nice to all of your F/O. because one day, they may be your Captain, lol
Ya id ride it to the doors close... Start building a war chest so that If the wheels fall of you have some ability to maneuver.
From your experience, are flights full? As long as demand is strong, Spirit should be able to continue. Spirit's also getting money for those engines now.
Everything has been oversold lately which is scary if still losing money
@@Bananasssssssss Management has guided cashflow positive from now (Q2 2024), so things might be turning around. Those Airbuses are valuable these days, too. Wish you the best!
"life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans"
Made a transition back to GA after 23 years and at 50 years old, couldn’t be happier.
I wish flying my Cub paid as much as flying the Bus, lol
Joe, my two cents or less of advice from a old 67 year old fellow,----- embrace change, that's 99% of life's challenge----- that is what I have observed and have told my kids.
Drift with the currents and all things will fall in place. Yeah I am not only a pilot but avid body surfer of some 60 years !
You will be fine with whatever choice you make, as said it will all fall into its proper place for your life journey !
Hey Joe have you ever considered moving abroad , there is a shortage of experienced Pilots for the Airbus A320 i'm sure you would be hired for a senior role and being paid well than in the USA, you could send more time with your family..
Thought about it but don’t think it’s currently something we would seriously entertain. The timing is just not very good for my kids, ages 5.5-10
@@Bananasssssssss I understand your position , i guess the only other option is to try for the main line carriers or go for widebody Airbus but unfortunately it's only Delta who operate Airbus widebodies.
The uncertainty is hard to deal with, but you're young enough to stick it out a little longer without making any rash moves. 10 years of seniority vanishes as soon as you walk out the door. A guy at your age you can ride it out until Spirit closes the doors, and still start over and enjoy a great career. On the other hand, if Spirit turns it around you will have given up nothing. SAVE at this moment is trading at $4.50, that could be quite a bargain for the right investor! Good Luck either way
Exactly what I'm thinking! well said. I think a part of me has big "FOMO", I see some of my friends leaving and it makes me wonder what I'm not seeing.
Fly with Owen and gear down seem to be thriving as contract pilots
I’m not to familiar with them but will check em out. Thanks
The numbers they claim are huge pay wise
I'm going through the same dilemma myself.
At least we aren’t alone I guess, lol
No telling how long it will last, but Delta is letting new hires bid CA. I don't know the details, though.
NYC base too which is closet to me. It really is nice to have all of these options. Can't go wrong with AA, UAL or Delta
@@Bananasssssssss Go to Delta, you’ll be a 767 Captain in NYC a couple of years, tops. You can own a fleet of Cubs. It’s a no brainer, great company with solid gameplan and finances. Don’t listen to the haters who base their comments on personal bias and rumors. Go. Now.
dude 100% take a job as a direct entry captain at a legacy. Just after seeing spirit is furloughing and downgrading a decent amount of captains.
DE captain at a major? What have you been smoking lmao the majors are giving paid leaves and some asking for time off 😂
These subtitles 😂 13:41 Get a thousand PIC, become a _Czech_ airman.
go become a independent contract pilot. Those boyz and girlz make 6 figures easy, flying just a couple of days a month. It may be no widebody, but hey, those falcons and gulfstreams are REALLy fun to fly!
$16 bucks an hour is around what I’m making as a pipeline pilot now… in 2024 😂
This is a big decision Joe. I’m sorry that things are what they are currently with Spirit. No matter what ends up happening, the company you’re with will be lucky to have you. I’ll be thinking about ya.
CA just passed $20 an hour min wage for fast food workers 😅
@@loveguitar2x The running joke I tell people is that an entry level Chik-fil-a worker makes more than me, but with a better schedule, better benefits (I have none), and didn’t have to pay $50k + and invest years of time to make that wage.
It’s sad because it’s completely true though. And $16/hr is probably on the high side of what I make.
Thanks! Appreciate that!
Spirit will push through. There may be problems with the business model and temporary problems with the PWs….but no major irreparable cracks in your career have appeared yet, have they? Personally I think the government is always going to want to see at least one or two ULCCs in the competitive mix.
Leaving now would be premature. If something REALLY gets nasty then revisit the situation. The only reason to leave that makes sense is if you have 100% decided you want to doze for dollars….as in for the rest of your career. That’s obviously an opportunity you’ll never have at Spirit.
Great point, especially about irreparable cracks. Not much has changed yet, just speculation.