Why dog training methods don’t work on parrots ❌🐕
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- Опубликовано: 13 авг 2023
- In today's masterclass video we are working with a blue and gold macaw named Dexter who has been severely aggressive with his humans in the past.
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Dave and Jamieleigh Womach specialize in parrot training and companionship.
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Title correction: Antiquated dog training methods don't work with parrots.
As a board certified behavior analyst... behavior is behavior is behavior! Reinforcement and shaping work for everyone who has behavior, be it birds, dogs, or humans 😊
Dominance training for dogs has been largely discredited also. As my dog trainer friends would say, his behavior chaining was too long. With dogs you also have to break things down. So when you asked about how he'd treat a dog doing the same he came up with better answers! :)
Came here to say this! Dogs and birds have different needs of course, but the principles of reinforcement are consistent.
I’ve used clicker training to train my dogs for nearly 30 years. My dogs have only ever been trained with positive reinforcement. I ignore any behavior I don’t like and reinforce the good. And I also realize my dogs don’t understand a new behavior just from saying it. Sometimes it takes baby steps and luring to teach them. Especially in agility training, which absolutely requires the dogs cooperation. We want our dogs to have fun!
@@Kris-pr4gn Oh I love watching agility! It's such a shame that most people don't believe their dog would be capable of that level of co-operation, so often you hear "my dog is too dumb", "he's loving, but not very bright", when the vast majority of domestic dogs (not just working, or competition lines) are just waiting for their humans to engage with them, to challenge them!
@@katbairwell so true! I love the variety of breeds doing agility! I’ve competed with four Italian Greyhounds and a Yorkie so far.
@@Kris-pr4gn Oh I love Yorkies, definitely a "one day" dream minidog! It must keep you fit, keeping up with such little flyers in the ring!!
Certified professional R+ dog trainer here 🙋
Dominance theory has been disproven by the person that thought they discovered it. It’s a big ick word for R+ (and even some balanced) trainers 😅
I learnt a lot about how to train parrots from Dave and Jaimie and LOVED training with my birds. Years later I got my first dog and studied to become a dog trainer. Most (if not all) of the basic principles apply with both training.
Ps. Thank you so much for inspiring me to become a certified professional dog trainer 💜
Speaking from a balanced training perspective, we don’t like dominance theory. I haven’t met a single reputable balanced trainer that subscribed to dominance theory.
Correction to this video is "Why balanced dog training methods don't work on parrots". As someone who uses modern science based dog training methods that focus on reward based methods, it's pretty near same to parrots ;)
There definitely seems to be a shift in dog training methods in recent years.
This is how I also train my fish. Positive training works so well
Modern science based training methods are also successfully implemented for zoo animals. They can even train tigers to hold still for vaccinations without any direct contact besides a small port for the needle and a small window to throw food through.
Dominance training is super outdated approach and no modern trainer uses it. Same as people used to “dominate” birds, same with dogs - people used to do those things but more and more trainers now use force-free methods and focus on positive reinforcement, choice-based approach and errorless training.
All animals can be trained the same way. Dogs, horses, chickens, cats, parrots. I am dog trainer and I also a parrot owner (GCC), both of them are trained using R+ methods. I use target training for both birds and dogs, with dogs it’s super helpful to teach them some behaviour or positioning through target/touch - the same as with parrots. I use counter conditioning and desensitization for things that dogs/birds are scared or uncomfortable with (i.e. body handling). I use shaping to create complex behaviours (i.e. I can ask my dog go to their crate or I can ask my parrot to go inside his cage and both of them gonna be reinforced with a treat when they choose to do so; but to achieve this behaviour i had to split the training into many micro steps, each reinforced many times, and shaped the way i wanted). I use food luring to teach my dog to spin or go in the middle, the same way how i used food lure to teach my parrot spin or hang upside down from his perch (i use target too, but for my case food lure works just as well). So if R+ methods are used, both dogs and birds can be taught the same way.
PS. Would really appreciate if guys make a correction in the video title and/or in next video explaining that dog training is about dominance, and all the modern vet / trainer pro associations and shelters speak publicly against this approach or use of any aversive tools.
Actually if you are using modern force free methods dog training is identical to parrot. Dog behaviourist here with a trick trained parrot
Oh so glad to see this here! Am an old techie retraining in behaviour (aiming for CCAB, but baby steps!)
Yes same basics but some very different training in police/bite/ military training. Most people training dogs aren't training them to bite people & when to stop/ start again. Dave was spot on that there are differences & how to mold it to parrots.
I've been a bird/rabbit person my whole life but I got my first dog 8.5 months ago and ended up training her based off of the bird training techniques I learned largely from this channel and everyone marvels at how smart, well trained and well behaved my dog is! She knows so many tricks because she picks up new tricks so easily based on the simple communication developed by reward based training!
It works well with cats too, as long as they are motivated by food or toys. One of my cats is only motivated by sleep so he doesn't learn any tricks.
@@rachellenormand9603 There's always one! It's good to see someone flying the flag for training cats, they don't have the complex relationship with us that dogs do, but they are loving, smart, and very much the living example of the undirected intellect. Here's to giving cats more respect for their many facets - rather than as fluffy strangers appreciated only because "they don't need as much attention as dogs". Given how strongly so many cats react to being given the enrichment that they deserve, I can't help but feel there are so many unfulfilled kitty lives!
We always say that humans wouldn't work for free, so why should parrots?! (or any animal really!) Great video!
Exactly
Janene has the most fabulous hair I've ever laid my eyes on!
Thank you ☺️
Thank you Dave & Jaime for training us! Lol. The training stand is AWESOME & is making a huge difference. Dexter is willingly going into the stand 99% of the time because he knows that is where he's getting treats. I've been videoing some sessions & it's been helpful to see body language right before a bite. I'll probably never go bare arm but we are both good with the towel. I've made great progress and even got to pet him on the head to get some pin feathers (& still have all my fingers). I can train with the female in sight too. Roger uses treats now & Dexter hardly ever says no to him. You did mention that Roger comes from a long history in high level K9 Police training which most don't realize the similarities & differences between pet & law enforcement training. There is a lot of "doing xyz for reward," but on the flip side, there's a need for very precise control & different training tactics. Both Dave & Jaime made him think about different approaches. The class helped us both so much. Thank you!
Oh how I wish I could have seen Dave and Jamie's face when Dexter's owner brought out the Cheetos for a reward. 😮. I know it's going to take baby steps towards healthier choices of snacks once the bond develops & grows. Good Job Dexter & family. Dexter, I know it will take you more time in trusting your humans but, I know it will be worth it. I promise.
Lol I'm Janene and the cheetos are very rarely used and only for very very very high reward/bribe. All other treats are nuts. Sometimes you gotta use what works. He actually is on a very good diet & it took almost a year to four him eating chop and almost 2 years to eat TOPs.
@@janenestmj Janene, please forgive me if you took any offense to my comment. I know Dexter is in a loving home & you want the very best for him. As for the Cheetos as a reward I am quite sure that you limit the use. I agree that you do what works for Dexter to be successful at what you are asking of him. Believe me I have seen some owners give their parrots worse things in regards to treats & food. Parrots are so complex. I applaud you in your efforts to do everything you can to make Dexter's life enriching, fulfilled & amazing. Be proud of yourself & the steps you are taking to help encourage Dexter even if Cheetos are part of his reward 😉. Good luck for all your continued success on this amazing journey with Dexter.
I didn't take offense at all :) just wanted those interested that although this is not a "good" treat, it falls in the "do what works" category for really difficult situations. I totally forgot that Dave got him to step up with a cheetos lol. The power of the mighty cheeto 🤣. If you are interested in watching my progression with Dex I've posted on instagram.. you get to see him nail me too. Which is why I'm so untrusting of him. Maybe because I didn't have a cheetos 🤣🤣🤣
So much of dog behaviour, which I suspect is going to be true with birds, is about giving them tools to process situations with. Neither dogs, nor birds, are adapted to modern human society (as a neurodivergent, I have to say neither are some of us humans) and any being can only react with the toolset they carry with them. So a dog that is wired to alert to potential dangers is going to bark like mad when something happens around the house they are not accustomed to, old fashioned (and scientifically discredited) methods would have used force to get the animal to supress the behaviour, but doesn't address the emotional need the animal feels. So nowadays we would encourage teaching a new tool, like approaching one of their humans and alerting through touch, once they have grasped the new tool, then we can help the dog to "assign" that tool to the situation that made them feel the emotional need to alert. And fundamentally, I think this is exactly what you're doing here, addressing the underlying emotional need, you're just using a more practical language. Any time an owner/handler and their animal are in conflict (not necessarily bites, but oppositional) then it's time to step back, reset the person, and then address the emotional needs of the animal, it is never a sign to push ahead. Watch a shepherd with their dogs, the best relationship is one where both parties are pulling together, once that oppositional mindset kicks in, then it's time to reassess the situation, and maybe bring in a behaviourist to help.
The main difference is animals like dogs and horses are more likely to have a willingness to please while animals like parrots or cats are more likely to only be in it for a tangible reward. Either way, you need clear and simple communication and a good attitude.
depends a lot on the bird
... whenever I tell my patty something he doesn't fully understand, you can clearly see him going hyper just out of "I don't understand it, but I want to do what you say"
... mostly because for him, the biggest reward is getting attention (he's a spoiled birb, but there's no such thing as too much attention to him)
it's funny because he usually does better WITHOUT (food) treats, he gets too excited if we use those (or just decides to leave)
The first animals I learned to train were chickens and my pet lizard and because of their lower intelligence (compared to parrots and dogs) they won't know what to do at all unless a clicker and treats are used to slowly guide them to understand the desired behaviour. So when I came to train very intelligent animals like parrots and dogs, using a clicker and treats was already natural to me.
I had parrots for several years before getting my dog and so I think training them also shaped how I train my German Shepherd now. My parrots won't bother listening to me unless there's a reward (why should they?) and so I have adopted a similar approach with my dog. There is definitely a difference between them; my dog does seem to enjoy pleasing me and working very much unlike my parrots. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't reward her for doing the right thing. I find that giving my dog cues or requests rather than commands has helped strengthen the relationship we have.
Beautiful people....thanks birdtricks
Actually,the way you train your parrots is almost exactly how I train my dogs for show,obedience and agility which is why I like to watch your videos.
I just love master class footage.
Very well done Dave.
You f*wking badass!!!
UNDERRATED VIDEO!!!
Can we agree but not completely? I work high drive working dogs and yes you can use this type of training. What we have found is you get even better results if you do not use dominant training. Old school worked, but we have found a better relationship and training can create long lasting stable behaviors or results.
Very helpful and interesting. Glad you all could get together and share with us. Always good to see beautiful birds with loving people eager to figure out good working relationships. Thanks to all, and to the couple for their service 🌟❤
I have a husky, and they are notorious for being stubborn and aloof and a bit wild. Really, they are just a bit more like birds than other dogs. You need to take your job of motivating the dog seriously. "permission based" training is no different than positive reinforcement training, it just means your job is to build the animals motivation to do what you want, which is true for any animal. If the motivation is out of fear then it just complicates everything because they will be very conflicted inside every time you want them to do something. They'll be trying to decide whether they are brave enough to do what they want, or under enough pressure to do what you want. That's when you get dogs who take forever to listen, and ignore you whenever they get the chance. If you set up the circumstances so they WANT to do what you want, then the only conflict inside the animal is how fast, how much enthusiasm, how much precision do they want to do it with. My husky flies to my side whenever I call him because he's been waiting for me to say his recall, and he is so excited to earn a game with me or a treat. Is he a stubborn husky? Absolutely, in the sense that he does what HE wants, and if I respect that, then I can make it so he wants what I want, even if it's unpleasant or uncomfortable for him in the short term. He trusts me because I've worked very hard to build that trust up. He isn't naturally food motivated, I've built up his food motivation by teaching him to work for treats as a language that bridges the species. I think that sometimes dogs who are naturally food motivated are really just more motivated in general to seek out connection with humans, and are born looking for a common language.
I taught my puppy based on parrot training & she’s a thriving almost year old doggo now
Awesome vlog!! Hope everyone is doing well!! Have a nice day!!
Getting better slowly. He actually let me pet his pin feathers on his head the other day! He must have been real desperate to get relief! 🤣
Birds always get enough respect
Hi guys, we have just got an African grey who has been abused , he talks but will not let anyone near him, he bites I’m looking for ideas we have had for three weeks thank you x
Hello bird lovers!❤
I have a few questions for anyone to answer🥰
#1 I am still in school but am not currently doing any after school activities (excluding homework😅) and am really wanting to get a bird. Would this stop me from being able to own one bird or would I have to get two? I have had birds in the past but have had to give them away due to family reasons.
#2 Would it be possible for a larger, louder bird e.g. macaw, cockatoo, galah to live in a suburban house (neighbours nearby) or do you need acreage (more space) to own a louder bird? Or would it depend on the neighbours completely?
#3 I will only get a bird if I can free flight it but is it safe enough to free flight with cars near-by?
I would really love a macaw and I imagine it going every were possible with me🥰
Thanks❤
Love your channel btw
What do the wing shakes mean? I don't have a bird yet, but to me it reads as anxious behavior. Or is it excitement? This is one reason I'm worried about reading my parrot's body language when I get one.
from the context of his commentary, I agree with the parrot showing am anxious behavior
He does this when excited or anxious. Both my b/g so this (1 learned from another). It could mean they are scared but with them it could be a couple things. Most of the time I see it when taking them somewhere they are excited about (going to where the other bird is, going in their night time cage where they get a nut treat, or could just be when I'm walking around... not sure if he's excited about that but maybe upset? ). Although this can mean scared with a normal bird & they'd like to fly off. Working with him when he's doing this ESPECIALLY if his tail is flared, like it is, is dangerous. Most likely to get nailed.
Yeah dominance training isn't a thing with dogs anymore, not one reputable trainer uses it, anyone that is serious about dog training or does 2 minutes of research understands those methods are outdated. I've used consent-based training with positive reinforcement with my dogs, for years, well pretty much since I found your channel and it has worked a treat. It has also led to a much deeper relationship with my dogs than one of me just telling them things, now they know I will listen they communicate right back at me. I also use a clicker to shape behaviours just like Jamie does with your parrots. They are much more similar than they are different training methods.
Pink brother 80
Busy duck 83
Aah the title stings a bit! Dog training methods actually might work. I'm certain it would actually. If you use the right method. Just like bird training, dog training methods have changed. Title should say: "why outdated dog training methods don't work" or "why training based on dominance doesn't work" not dog training methods.
I think you mean that balanced dog training doesn’t work with birds. Speaking as someone working on becoming a balanced trainer, you would just end up getting bit. Force Free dog training would honestly work very well for parrots I imagine.
Was Dexter abused? I wonder why all of the aggression to his previous owner.
Dexter has not been abused with its or previous owner. We are unsure of his first owner who was a female truck driver that he traveled with.
birds don't need to be abused to get aggressive, if you simply don't listen to their body language, they get tired of saying things nicely (body language) and resort to biting.
I see my birds and sure I call them "flying dogs" when they act goofy for a blueberry snack, but when you reaaaaally see them, you know they ain't nothing like a dog, or a cat, and that they are not an animal that got breed into domestication.
Weak elk 05
if she that afraid of the bird she should not own it have birds u will have possibly get bite comes with the territory
Agree
This is Janene and I have 7 birds of all sizes. This bird has latched onto my arm where I had to pry him off. I couldn't feel my arm for a day. I have to work with my hands so yes it scares me. He's also tried to bite my face while walking with him. I've lost my nails 3 times with near misses and suffered other minor bites from him. So yes I'm afraid of him doing real damage to me. I'm pretty good at reading him and wear protection so I don't get a major injury.
@@janenestmj I'm sorry, but if you're pretty good at reading body language, you will either not get bitten, or you deliberately choose to ignore the body language and force the bird to do something you'll think it will (eventually) enjoy. I would like to share my story with you.
My mom bought a young African Grey 8 years ago. But she treats the parrot with the same mindset as she would treat a dog: “She is the boss (or pack leader), the parrot should be thankful for being fed & cleaned after and therefore should listen to her commands.” She always forced the parrot to step up, forced scratches, forced laying on het chest to be cuddled and forced putting her back into her cage when needed. She thought the parrot would eventually get used to it and see it as “normal behavior” to always listen to my mom. The bird kind of allowed it for 6 years, but two years ago the parrot got fed up with her and started to bite her really hard. Sadly there is almost no more physical interaction between the two today (my mom is 75 and lives alone). 70% of the interactions end up in a nasty bite.
I visit my mom once every week and all those years I have always asked the bird's permission for a step up, or a scratch. With only 2 hours a week I have managed to build a high level of trust with the bird, just by reading and respecting her body language. The difference is night and day. I have never been bitten by her and I feel as if she never will. She steps up nicely and just wants to sit on my shoulder and beg for scratches and cuddles forever when I'm over for a visit. When new people come over for a visit she begs everybody for attention and scratches. She really only bites my mom.
When you have a high level of trust with your bird, you will have that extra credit when you do something wrong, or do something the bird really doesn't like. When I pet her, I sometimes accidentally touch her in a place she is uncomfortable with, like her wing. She lets me know immediately by making a noise and opening her beak towards the uncomfortable place. But she does not bite.
I have watched so many videos on this channel (Thank you so much Dave and Jamie, you are amazing!!), trying to help improve our relationship with the bird while also preparing myself for taking care of the bird in the future, when my mom eventually passes away. I begged my mom to try the permission based approach towards the bird and start clicker training. I tried to explain her some of the body languages. But because there is zero trust between the two to begin with, the answer is always "no" when she asks the bird to do something.
It is very sad to see a bird so desperate for attention, but doesn’t trust the person she has to spend most of her time with. My mom would love to be able to cuddle and interact with the bird, but she says she simply doesn't have the time, patience and energy anymore to start building that needed level of trust when she is already 10-0 behind.
Greetings from the Netherlands!
@janenesfurryandfeatheredfr59 perhaps you're not understanding the comments Janine. You stated you've been bitten pretty seriously in the past. That tells me already your inability to read the bird because it's already escalated. Just because you own seven birds it doesn't make you any more equip then someone who doesn't own birds because you are clearly struggling with the basics. Macaws are one of the larger species and why people such as yourself who are aware of their own discomfort then go ahead and own one of the largest species is beyond me and clearly many commenters. I have a saying stay in ya lane. If you struggle with birds that's OK get something you're capable of owning. There is nothing wrong with owning a weird or quirky pet but everyone wants the alure of a macaw without the research.
Or perhaps if you must own birds why not start with a species you're not terrified of?
I own train work and breed American pit bull terriers. Dogs with generational lineage of working dogs. This means lots of untapped drive and the understanding these dogs are not for everyone.
Please do not take offence. Many people like myself deal with owners getting animals not appropriate for their capabilities or life style.
No judgement it's why I chose not to have kids.
Research is essential.
@docbainl9504 I understand what you are saying. I'm actually pretty good at reading him but sometimes it's very hard with him. Some of the bites have been while trying to feed him a small nut & he's all nice until I get right up to him then he hits my finger just right. Which is why I use larger nuts now to give a little extra space if he turns on me. The bad bite was again a permission based step up, he came to me all calm, stepped up nice, then he latched on. I've recorded sessions with him and watch for the even littlest sign. I post some of them. I've gotten better at reading him & often can see it & know when to/not to interact. He's one of those birds that will lure you in just to bite. I do all permission based. Obviously we are having a hard time which is why we reach out for help. Maybe we shouldn't have gotten a macaw. BUT Fact is, we got a large bird & trying to give him the best life and hopefully he'll like me some day. Things have gotten better. He's been letting me pet his head (he's got some big pin feathers that I'd like to help him with). He's also getting better at saying no without walking over just to bite me.