DOES SUPER SAIYAN MATTER ANYMORE? | A Dragonball Discussion
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2017
- Super Saiyan Blue was so much hype when it was revealed back in 2015 but now? It's not so hot. Dragon Ball Super has resorted to new transformations to keep the fire burning. What can they do now? Does Super Saiyan even matter anymore? Let's discuss that.
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Развлечения
If Naruto goes Super Saiyan Rainbow I'm done with One Piece...
k
Not even slightly clever... tisk tisk
NightFire AddictionZ me 2
If Snape kills Luke's Father, I'm done with Star Trek.
Please God Almighty, don't let this meme die.
The real question, does super saiyan blue matter?
RedPixelFlame Soon it'll be the new SSJ3.
Honestly? I don't think any of the transformations matter. One of the things DBZ really did well is that you always knew where everyone stood in terms of power. So when someone transformed, it always felt like a big deal.
I never get that with SSB, since both Goku and Vegeta seem to whip back and forth between SSJ(2?) and Blue constantly. How is Blue any different from regular SSJ, besides the color?
RedPixelFlame considering it's the only thing keeping Goku alive at this point, I'd say so
Super sayain GOD with red hair has the shortest screen time of any super sayain transfrom. Which sucks because I liked that form.
It matters but not in the same way. As i mentioned in a previous comment, is more of an alternative to get stronger rather than "the only power up that matters" like the SSJ used to be. Instead, if you can't reach go SSB, maybe use Rage or Berserk or Mystic if you got the chance, it matters just as a way to stand out in terms of position rather than power, Blue is "the power that rivals the gods", no matter what, that's still a big deal for the story. Unfortunately, since Super's still going and we don't seem to get a battle against a god anytime soon, that title starts fading away cause the writers only have the gods as their climax in terms of opponents.
As once a green wise man said, "Not that much of a milestone by now"
I feel that if Goku gets a new form, he should never master it. It should have drawbacks that he can't overcome, but aren't so bad that he should never use the form. It should become a last resort he only uses when really pushed. Not just something that becomes his default "serious fight" form.
Haikelo Blaix So basically Kaioken?
Kinda but longer lasting. And used more. Heck, how many times has Kaioken been used in the entire series?
Personally, I really wished they used SSG more, and it's not just because it's red and looks cool. The form felt wasted and was barely used before they shoved it aside for the lackluster SSB. Heck, it was used for 5 min, and we never even got to see Vegeta use it.
Personally, I'd like the new tranformation to be god ki so well managed with zero wasted that it is basically his base form. Like what happened on BoG.
N Reun Nah, that will create the exact problem we have with SSB.
Super saiyan 2 is the maximum a saiyan can reach without "being dead or being fused"
If Caulifla goes 3 during this arc, I'm pretty sure the writers will be dead
MegaRay220 lol best comment so far.
Well they could just pull the excuse "Oh, well U6 Saiyans are different from U7 Saiyans" out their ass.
MegaRay220 she's gone through 3 forms (for the first time) in the course of an hour. I wouldn't be surprised if she hit 3 before the end of the arc.
MegaRay220 Goku went SSJ3 while alived though
But.. Bardock...
I don't get why the name of Trunk's transformation is called Super Saiyan Rage when SSJ is based on rage. Makes no sense.
Kbennett 365
This form was named as super saiyan rage in super dragon ball heroes a DB video game.
Kbennett 365 it's the angrier version of angry lol
Kbennett 365 i dont care if it is called super saiyan rage i call it false super saiyan blue and i dont care that false super saiyan is not "canon"
i believe the "rage" part may be referring to blue and how you have to be calm to use it which is why it is imperfect. (i know that you can be mad with ssjb but goku and vegetal already learned how to use ssjb and it isn't them JUST unlocking it) But of course this is my personal head canon and you don't have to take this for fact
Actually when thinking about it like that, that is a good a point
as much as we want to give Toei crap for letting Goku get hurt by bullets and lasers we can't forget that krillin hurt him with a rock in the cell saga :^)
well true, but I'd say that krillin could throw the rock way faster than a gun could shoot a bullet and the rock weights like 4 or 5 times more than a bullet. Still more reasonable in my opinion.
Yea but he didn't throw it fast. He just threw it in the air to his head at the same speed another human would.
VanFarnel1 didnt happen like that. It was an under hand toss while Golu was napping in SSJ. Krillin was just curious if Goku ca be hurt in this fashion. Goku got rocked pun intended.
Tristan
Even SS Gohan is scared of untrained goten throw rock at him
+Tristan That's nnot the same. Goku was sleep/resting. If a toddler wacks you in the face with a toy, it hurts! That doesn't mean small children are stronger than adult.
It was a solid 50x power increase but they always treat it like nothing
Exactly
Like most things, I'm sure Toriyama forgot about its importance.
Skyrogue19 Well in the manga, Seeing Super Saiyan blue isn't exactly common, we still see SSG, SSJ2 and other forms while in the anime it's completely different
+NightFire AddictionZ Yes, manga at least had a good writing than anime. Its really put the new property (SSJG / Blue) into soemthing special because they are new. Thats why i enjoyed DBS manga more than anime. They only care about MARKETING in anime hahaha
At the same time, the manga made the villains slightly less of a threat. Even with Rosé, Black was getting completely dominated in his rematch against Vegeta. Hit was overwhelmed against SSB Goku. Merged Zamasu couldn't do shit against Vegito AND was only tying against MSSB Goku because of his immortality.
I agree that Blue is getting the better treatment by faaar in the manga, but imo it's at the expense of the opponents credibility. With Hit I feel it's justified, since his strongest asset was his speed and his Time Skip, but with Black? Who didn't seem to be affected by Blue's stamina issue? It was weird. ):
I think Toriyama should make it like oda and to Show that someone got stronger simply increase the chest size
Mathias B. If he does that it might end up increasing kale`s and caulifla`s power 😜
TL;DR: Less transformations, more strategy please.
I personally think that at this point, the writing staff should be taking some more cues from the original Dragon Ball series. Remember the Tenkaiichi tournaments back then? Either Goku and Krillin would just one shot enemies, or their fights would be intense mind games with lots of strategy. In Super, they've had a bit of this with the side characters like Krillin, where he worked to outsmart his opponents, making for some really entertaining fights (Such as throwing the shoe, which was straight out of his Bacterian fight in the original series), whereas Goku and Vegeta have kinda been getting the shaft here. It's become a game of
"Oh no, this enemy is really strong! What do we do?"
"Don't worry Vegeta, now I'm a Super Duper Sandwich"
"Yay, we beat him!"
Only to repeat in the next arc.
Only if the writers have the characters work with what they already have, improving their techniques and strategies, (Like all the Humans have been forced to do since back in the beginning of the Android Saga, where every Saiyan became super) will we get those really memorable, well written, and clever fights. Also, as you mentioned, Toyotaro is in fact doing a bit of this in the manga, but he's certainly being held back from it being that he's gotta stay to the same basic story.
My issue with all the Super forms since 2 is this, they are mechanically the same.
We are shown they are stronger, and look different, but what really changes in the fight?
Look back to Freeza and his 5 forms on Namek. In each form he acts diffrent, fights diffrent, even displays new abilities.
1: small doesn't exert force
2: large and fit, goes for the brutal kill less instead the effective one.
3: monstrous and acts as such
4: eligent and masterful, no wasted time and the most moves available.
5 wild and desperate, technique is lost to raw power.
The last time a transformation really changed the person like this was Cell. Perfect cell loses his most powerful weapon (his draining tail) to become masterful martial artist. His combat style changes and gains new powers.
Blue needs it's own combat style, and for that the show needs to explore just what god ki can do that normal ki cannot.
Perhaps the next Arc could explore that, showing that blue has not been truly utilized.
I treat 100% as a different form. There is difference in appearance, and it took time for him to change into it.
Perfect cell can still use his tail
Well that isn't fair to say. "Since 2"? Even the first one was just a power boost too. That was the point after all, not to adapt or change, but just to gain more power when it was needed to measure up to the big bad. It certainly is less interesting, though, and makes it so only the most recent one is ever relevant.
Remember when people used to go wild seeing Goku & Vegeta turning Super Saiyan?
Daishinkan yeah like 15 years ago.
SSJ is a spark of a flame.
SSG is the flame.
SSB is the flame setted on high max from the stove yo lol its awesome. That's how I always viewed it.
Fonso120 But that spark, and as such the flame, is dying down.
Super Saiyan Blue would be a lot cooler if it ever beat anyone.
Vegeta trashed Frieza and Black while Goku killed Frieza and Vegit trashed merged zamasu. Technically, the form did beat anyone.
64kingarthur didn't Vegeta also one shot Cabba?
Freeza
It's not that people don't get hyped about Transformations anymore. People want to be hyped about them, but the thing about them these days is that Toei made them basically a joke. Super Saiyan God and Blue are literally just recolors regular SSJ which is boring as all hell and regular Super Saiyan has became a joke due to how easily saiyans can achieve it(cough Goten, Trunks and Caulifla cough). At this point i want Goku and Vegeta to ditch god transformations and just become SSJ4, heck i wouldn't even mind if they renamed it to Super Saiyan Savage/Primal or something either. I just want transformations that are new in terms of design. Not your generic Deviant Art recolors or regular super saiyan, but with slightly different aura like for example Trunks' Super Saiyan Rage. Or even this new Transformation Goku is supposedly going to achieve. How can anyone call this a new form, it's literally base Goku with his hair slightly spiked up.
I think at this point, in order to "fix" Super Saiyan and make each form relevant in some way, they have to establish that each form has it's own strength and weaknesses instead of "Oh, _this_ form is just stronger that _that_ form in every way". For example:
SSJ: Basic, simple, easy to control.
SSJ Blue: Perfect Ki Control.
SSJ God: not as strong as SSJB, but has immunity to mortal Ki (Beerus once said God Ki cannot be harmed by Mortal Ki, so I'm surprised it hasn't come up again since, especially with SSJB Goku being wounded by something as weak as a blaster.)
SSJ Demigod/Rage: as strong as SSJB, but reduced Ki Control. Possible access to SSJ 2 and 3 with God Ki though this form?
SSJ Berserker: Accelerated Ki regeneration, enhanced durability, complete lack of Ki control.
SSJ Rosé: Dangerously lethal and destructive Ki. With all the references to Death in it's design, it wouldn't surprise me that if Goku or Vegeta tried to use it they would end up damaging their own bodies.
The problem is with the manga and the anime having different explanations for things (use of SSJG in the manga and not in the anime, lack of SSJ Rage in the Manga, Zamasu having healing abilities in the manga but not excplicitly shown in the anime, etc.) it's very difficult to work out what aspects of each form are canon, and what aren't.
balrog0444
It's sad that you're ideas is better than that of Toei.
:'(
balrog0444 I think the Dragon Ball AF manga actually does this, with Vegeta jumping back and forth between different transformations to suit the present situation.
That's one thing I thought about and wondered why none of the Z-fighters ever did; yeah, Grade 3 is slow as balls, but if you can get your opponent in a grapple and THEN go G3, the fact you can't move as fast suddenly doesn't matter as much, now does it?
That is true the can't move fast become a none factor if someone ever got a hold of someone then went Grade Three.
I heartily agree. I'd enjoy seeing each form be able to more or less reach the same effectiveness, but all in different ways, and depending on the opponent.
I mean it's important enough that every Sayin in DBFighterZ starts off as base Super Sayin.
Drake I remember the Devs saying that there weren't going to have separate characters for each transformation, Great Ape probably being the exception if it even gets in. Also the Sayin's intros are all of them transforming and all the promotional material has them transformed so it would be weird if that's the case.
"I mean it's important enough that every Sayin in DBFighterZ starts off as base Super Sayin." 'Kay? Dragon Ball GT Final Bout and Ultimate Battle 22 also had the start out as Super Saiyan.
Vegeta starts at Super Vegeta.
No, video over.
Farrel Gaming but his was first fuck off
Nerom Empire I didn't even see this dudes comment until after I typed my own, honest mistake, yet I will admit they do sound similar.
Oh My no damage done just a coincidence 👍🏼
Super Saiyan lost all credibility once the "Tingly back" became the way to attain it. Back in the day kids would stand outside screamimg and tensing every muscle they had to pretend to be super ssj...now they can just wipe some Vick's Vapor rub between their shoulder blades...
SteakN EggsEnt that was the way she got it, and having power focused in one area and letting it explode, does that remind you of something.. Let your power explode... Also that was an explanation by Cabba that is what he said is how he can explode, to me that makes more sense than saying Goten and Trunks release their rage when they transform, they dont seem to use rage to transform. So I see it as focusing your power in one place and letting it explode.
Hahaha, I remember talking to kids who would try and convince me they could go Super Saiyan.
Remember when Vegeta mentioned about how the kids could unlock the super saiyan like some toy? yeah, it was already a joke even before that shit you're complaining about. Hell, it already was ever since 18 trashed Vegeta for a good reason. Earthling made cyborgs.
@64kingarthur yes it has progressively lost credibility since the androids, but that whole "focus your energy to your back" thing just screams a cop-out on part of the writers.
+SteakN EggsEnt
No, it doesn't . Think about it, where did the Saiyan strength come from BEFORE Super Saiyan transformations? Their tails. To what part of their bodies are their tails attached to? Their fucking spine. There you go.
If Blue had proper scaling and consistency then it'd be fantastic. In the anime it's absolutely garbage. It's poorly written. In order to make Goku the hero in the Universe 6 tournament we got the excuse that turning on blue even once virtually ruined the transformation. So far in this tournament Goku has turned it on twice? Three times? I forget. In the manga they continue this mindset, but expand upon it. Vegeta showcased if you exited a god form, you lost the power. So he used red, in order to never have God ki leave his grasp and have to gather it up again.
It also makes no sense why you would activate the form, blow a kamehameha against Kale.. and just be beaten out of the form. If you're going through the effort of turning on God ki and blasting out quite a bit of it in what's supposed to be an endurance fight, then you wouldn't halfass it. To further push this, after Goku had turned it on 2-3 times, wasted a good amount of energy and got smacked out of it by people.. He just pops back up and casually waves to Hit/Jiren. That's not good writing. He's not even taking the form seriously. Also it makes no sense that Goku mastered SSJ 17ish years ago, showcased it drained no energy and wouldn't just start the tournament in SSJ and keep to that form. Reasonably that'd be the best endurance form to power ratio, until you ran into someone who overpowered it.
..Alright, shorter answer: Nothing matters, Toei doesn't use the forms for story or reason. They just pop them up in order to continue showcasing them for marketing.
Shinjiji *how to counter a proper argument against U6 saiyans* Fuck you, y u hte it wen gurl go super saiyan? They are fram anoder univarse so thay r defernt... Ughhgh
Shinjiji Goku was holding back what dont u people understand
First off is it really so hard to add two letters for 'you'? But most importantly why would you go blue and hold back? They drove it home that activating God ki is a bad idea, unless you're dedicated to the form. So turning it on and off just weakens it in the long run. I don't give two craps about Kale's form, or if it's strong. That ship has sailed, people like it despite it making almost zero sense in the long run. So not fighting it.
The whole point is IF Goku is holding back, it'd make much more sense to hold back in SSJ1/2/3/Red. Activating blue left and right is by far the most stupid thing he could do. And once again I will say it.. Blue is poorly written in the anime.
Shinjiji it's in the manga SSB has drawbacks almost as much as ssj3 while the anime was a stamina waste but not as much as you have to turn off the form every second that's why he can use Kaioken and I like Kaioken
Shinjiji Kale pulled a hulk from the avengers, Goku became Loki.
The issue with Super Saiyan God and Blooper Saiyan, at least for me, is that they came out of nowhere. There was no build up beyond what appeared in the movies, unlike the Legend of the Super Saiyan that grew throughout the Freeza saga.
You also run into the aforementioned issues of not having a clue as to what the Blooper Saiyan's peak power is, it needing to be used with Kaio Ken to beat Hit (which effectively makes it feel weak as a result if a tournament is where it shows up instead of a fight to the death or the fight for all life, at least Blooper Saiyan appeared against Gold Freeza instead of in a random training montage), and apparently just being a form that Vegeta could unlock. Again, there was no build up to it, Goku and Vegeta need to get stronger? BLAM! Blue hair dye to the rescue!!!
Super Saiyan 1 came from Krillin's death triggering Goku's rage, Super Saiyan 2 came from a year of training in the Time Chamber, SSJ3 came from years training in the Otherworld. All of these required great struggle and training on Goku's part, and didn't come easy. Super Saiyan God was literally handed to him by his friends (and Granddaughter fetus) and Blooper Saiyan just kind of came out of nowhere because the Resurrection F movie plot needed him to get stronger. There was no struggle needed, at least as far as the viewer was concerned.
There's also the issue of it being called Super Saiyan GOD. A god's strength should be ultimate, but we can't have that because Goku literally does not work that way, he always needs to have a struggle. The fact that there are higher levels of power BEYOND GODHOOD completely undercuts any and all transformations going forward for Goku and Vegeta. They are already gods, why do they need to get stronger if they are already gods?
Mark LaFrancis Goku couldve beat Hit if he went ssb kaioken x10, but nah. He had to start at base then work his way up while Hits ability Improve is like Zenkai Boost on Crack in which he is Constantly improving a lot during a fight.
Did we even see how Blue happened? We've never seen anyone achieve it. Goku and Vegeta just showed up on the scene in Resurrection F and could do it. I like the majesty they've shown with it a few times in front of everyone. The music, and everyone's awe was really great in making the transformation feel just how powerful it is.
Remember that one time Super Saiyan Goku didn't lose to android 19. Remember that time Super Saiyan Vegeta didn't lose to Android 17. Remember when the importance of Super Saiyan transformation lasted more than an arc? I don't.
Android 18 but ya super saiyan has been irrelevant since the cell saga
Tempest fighting A19, goku was already dealing with another menace *cough* heart disease *cough*
Always happens, SSJ3 introduced in buu arc. Following arc/Battle Of Gods gets the shit beaten out of him by Beerus.
Tempest ssj vegeta destroyed A19.
Assj vegeta almost killed cell.
Blue got beaten by freeza.
Blue got beaten by Hit.
Blue got beaten by Goku Black ssr.
Blue got trashed by angry trunks.
Blue got beaten by fembroly, almost.
Blue got a draw from freeza.
Blue kicked frieza's ass(vegeta) and killed him (goku)
Blue destroyed cabba and kicked Hit's ass (albeit kaioken, plus goku gave up)
Blue also kicked Black's ass (vegeta)
Blue never fought trunks
and Blue didn't try against kale
but good try tho
I personally prefer it if we stopped relying on forms to denote strength as much.
Back in Dragon Ball's roots, you weren't ever too sure how strong someone stacked up against another without them just fighting and finding out directly. Techniques mattered. Effort mattered. Creativity mattered.
Wouldn't it be nice to just go back to that?
I honestly wish Goku would just find a way to use all his power in base so the show can stop being about transformations.
YAY im black
wonderful lord Popo
Mr Popo welcome black
Weren't you blue in the american show? xd
Pecking order
Mr Popo so u killed blue popo and took his place?
Personally Super Sayain doesn't really matter anymore I used to get goosebumps every time I saw any transformation but now it's like oh ok he transformed whatever
Very good discussion video as always Masakox. And I am always tickled whenever you find a clever way of inputting MARKETING
I miss it just being Super Saiyan 1-3.
Toei can no longer draw correctly, that's probably another reason why Goku doesn't use it anymore.
Can you do a what if scenario where when Krillin got wished back to life, the first time he got killed by King Piccolo,, Shenron for some reason needed some blood of a living being to bring him back to life. So Goku obviously donates his because he loves his friend. So when Krillin is brought back for the first time he is now actually part saiyan, and he gets the benefits of becoming a sayain. How would this effect the story masako?
I fucking love you masako. I get disappointed whenever you don't post a lore video. Keep it up!
@MasakoX
Man, your context is so cool and interesting. Keep it up!
The thing with SSB is that this form is more versatile. There is no set multiplier to this form, hence why it confuses many viewers about how strong it is. People are simply used to new transformations as simply being set multipliers and not just a different way of controling your Ki.
That being said, the Blue form has been so overused in non-serious fights that it's not that exciting anymore. The same did happen to previous Super Saiyan forms, but never did it happen this fast. People joke about how they quit DBS if Caulifla ever goes SSB, but I feel like if Caulifla actually DID learn how to go Blue, this form would have gained more significance again, like SS1 used to have back in DBZ when other characters achieved that form.
Part of the problem is that Goku and Vegeta are the only two characters to ever have this transformation. And they both achieved this form off-screen and both in the exact same arc. Not only that, but it was introduced along with Freeza's new transformation to Golden Freeza, which was even a more powerful transformation. SSB didn't have the same impact as SS1 because SSB was actually INFERIOR to Freeza, while back in Z SS1 was still superior to Freeza. And then when Freeza returns as Mecha Freeza, he is easily defeated by a new character who reveals himself as another Super Saiyan, which nobody saw coming. But the second SSB was introduced right after the introduction of the first, only to defeat an already worn out, low stamina Golden Freeza. And besides the Kaio-Ken combo, there was nothing new with the Blue form to keep it fresh ever since. No new character to achieve it. No further enhanced form of it. That's why the other SS forms had a longer lasting impact. More and more characters achieved this form and kept evolving it. But SSB doesn't have enhanced forms. For years people wanted to see a SSB2 and 3, but there is no such thing. It feels so... empty.
So let me tell you this: If Caulifla DOESN'T go SSB one day, then I'm done with GT.
nexusshark youre right about the multiplier thing. its why i think introducing actual numbers to measure a characters power ended up being a detriment in the long run and I think Toriyama realized this since he pretty much abandoned power levels, at least the idea of giving them a numerical value, after Namek. But to this day there are fans bending over backwards with unnecessary calculations and equations that they lose their shit whenever Toriyama or the other writers try to stray away from that system in new forms like Blue. The power of these characters should be determined by feats, not numbers.
nexusshark How tf is blue gonna gain significance if Caulifa goes blue? No that is just more bullshit. She became a ssj, second grade ssj and ssj2 effortlessly, now she become a god? are you thinking straight on why people would quit?
Legends, did I say I want her to achieve this form easily? Because I didn't. I was just using her as a simple example for another Saiyan achieving SSB other than Goku and Vegeta. Caulifla's shtick is to be pretty much a natural talent. She does not represent her entire race in any way, but is rather someone who sticks out. Her character also seems to resemble more that of a Saiyan from U7 rather than U6. Caulifla managed to go Super Saiyan because she had specific instructions to the mechanics of the transformation, unlike previous characters. And she did struggle, but she's a quick learner. She has shown to be very good with focussing her Ki. Grade 3 was easy because pretty much every character can use Ki to increase muscle mass. Goku and Cell did it just as easily. And SS2 was more like a reflex at first. Then she achieved the form once again via instructions that she's already familiar with. And since she wants to ascend even further and is quite interested in the blue form, she was the obvious choice for me. She wants to learn more about it and so do we as an audience.
The other reason was obviously for the purpose of the joke at the end.
I really dont think that Kalifa going blue in the spam of 24 hours will help. Even ignoring the time this would not be the same as when we saw others reach their new forms. The first one that we saw after Goku was Trunks which came as a total surprise and it made us want Vegita (who everyone though would be the next one to reach it) to reach that form all the more. I dont think that we can say the same for Kalifa. I could see her maybe going god by getting help from others (which would be way cooler then her going blue). Honestly I just want to see god form more. I would have liked it so much more if they did it like in the manga with different forms of blue and a reminder of god. Plus I do think that using blue in all his fights (even if you can change the power of it) just made me want to see god or even just normal super saiyan more.
maciekx10 The SSG got it worse than any form so far, as it was forgotten even before it could get old. I definitely want it to make at least one more appearance. And please let it be Vegeta. But the normal Super Saiyan doesn't cut it for me anymore. It only works when we see a new character achieve it, which is why I'd like to see Pan achieve it too. I'd also like to see Kale do it too. Otherwise that form is old news. As with Blue, there hasn't been anything new with the form. The manga introduced the so called "complete SSB", where Goku no longer has the aura around him, but this too had very mixed receptions. I'd love to see that in the anime, but I personally prefer the Kaio-Ken Blue. The main topic right now is the significance and the impact of the Blue form, not people's opinions of Caulifla's character. The people who dislike Caulifla already are not gonna change their minds anyway, so screw them. I picked Caulifla because out of all the other Saiyan characters that might achieve the form, she is the next logical candidate.
Goku and Vegeta are already Blue, so we have to look at what other Saiyans we have.
Goten and Trunks didn't grow as characters or even in actual age since the Buu arc. So there is nothing we can expect from them any time soon. Ever since they can do Fusion, their entire development is pretty much put on ice. Which is insane considering how easily they achieved the SS1 form and were even able to reach SS3 while fused. But after that there was nothing. Just comic relief side-characters.
Gohan has the potential to go Blue one day, but he specifically stated that he is walking a different path. He wants to get stronger in his own way, so he is gonna further evolve his Mystic power and I certainly hope he does. But Mystic isn't Blue, so Gohan is out.
Trunks could have gone SSB and fans even expected him to, but he gained a whole new transformation called Rage, which seems to be on par with the Blue form in terms of strength. And while this form was indeed amazing, it did not do the Blue form any favors. It only confused the viewers.
Black has his own, more twisted version of the Blue form, which he named Rose. This form is completely unique to Black due to Zamasu's soul merging with Goku's body. Although it is a variant of the Blue form, it is not a form that any Saiyan could naturally assume.
Kale has her Berserker form, which is insanely powerful in it's own right. But the Blue form requires Ki controle on such a level that only Gods are usually familiar with. Kale on the other hand has barely any controle over her Ki and can't even go Super Saiyan on her own will. She still needs to be triggered. And when she does she completely loses herself. So from all the candidates to potentially go Blue, Kale falls behind literally everyone else.
Cabba has witnesed the power of the Blue form first hand and was quite amazed that he could become this strong one day, so he does have interest to one day become SSB. But his progress has been minimal to say the least. Though talented, he still hasn't ascended beyond the SS1 form to this day. So he still has a long way ahead of him. I guess Caulifla is gonna be teaching HIM now.
Caulifla on the other hand is a natural talent. Given the right instructions she is capable to evolve in a much quicker rate than Cabba, which even Goku noted. She is getting the hang of it so quickly that even Goku wouldn't be surprised if she reaches SS3 soon if she keeps this up. Caulifla's quick pace and her desire to go further and further puts her for me as the next, logical choice to be the next SSB.
Like everyone who was paying attention has predicted, Caulifla would NOT reach SSB, because this form is not like your typical SS form. Working your Ki in the back to make it give a tingly feeling won't work this time. It requires a different kind of training. Something that Caulifla and Cabba never had the time for. My point was never that Caulifla should go Blue right away or even in this tournament. My point was to have another Saiyan achieve this form in order to give it more life. And I chose Caulifla as the next candidate because of her quick understanding and her desire to reach greater hights.
And if we actually do see Caulifla (and maybe Cabba) train to achieve this form, we might also get a better understanding of what this form is, how exactly it works and clear up some misconceptions. We already got some clarifications on how Super Saiyan actually works. Blue needs that too.
at this point in the Dragon Ball timeline the original Super Saiyan forms are all fodder..maxed out...they're for mere testing and little sparring matches. Goku has god ki super Saiyan level strength now..Jiren, Frieza, hit, maybe even beerus hakaishin level characters who rival now. People need to Take off the nostalgia glasses
thx for that son
Or DBS is made for retards
If I hear\see the word, "Fodder" one more time, i'm gonna flip.
Goku stop being meta your about to have a fight!
RSS so is GT
You're doing a great job with your channel. Keep it up.
When he made the Yoda quote I thought "What a nerd." Yet here I am, watching DBZ theory, fan canon 'what ifs', and discussion for 2 straight weeks. I'm impressed by the amount of content and have been watching video after video. Thanks MasakoX
funfact: ningen is an sea monster
search it up on yt
true
gowasu God tuber not fucking funny dude.
gowasu God tuber gowasu u clickbait bich
Are we ever gonna get that video of the dancing fighters?
Are you gonna put up a livestream for the tournament? I wanna replay my victory on Godtube
Blue is more of just a technique rather than a transformation I would say.
Golden: increases power through rage. It's a loss of control in exchange for power until you get used to it.
Red: is increase in power through others or sacrifice of other's abilities. It's like putting a funnel on the reserves of your energy. You pour all the energy others have into the funnel until it's filled. Then you can keep putting out more energy and force because of the extra until it runs out.
Blue: is power up through control of energy. If goku loses control or tiers-out his muscles for control he loses the form.
How is it possible that you don't have a million subscribers? BEST dragonball channel hands down
I'm so happy you continued into, and finished, the Yoda quote.
My god is it just me but I loved your comparison of ssj blue to blue star. I applaud you sir. brilliant comparison.
It doesn't really seem like any form of Super Saiyan is a big deal anymore. But that's not exactly a novelty, the show's very concept is all about reaching new levels of power to surpass greater foes. However, I do hope that Super brings something new to the franchise with Goku's "limit breaker form", or whatever it turns out to be.
It would be interesting if it paves the way for a new kind of method to grow stronger, something different from the usual"one step beyond the previous SSJ form" spiel. I would like to see the show coming full circle on that statement made a long time ago, about Goku and Vegeta "reaching their limits" on what regular training can achieve.
YEAH Masako! Loved the Astrophysical analogy 10:04
I like these discussions
Thank you for making that Yoda reference.
"When in doubt go Super Saiyan"
Me 😆😆😆😆😂😂😂😂
Great video
After watching Caulifla fight, while hearing her audio, (ah da da da dah dah dah dah dah dah!) and then seeing her and Goku's bout with big smiles on there faces. I somewhat have a feeling she may be the "Goku" version of universe 6. Thoughts?
Jefferson Apgar Alot of people know about this as well don't act like your the only person that noticed this lol
got lit wasted Wasn't trying to act like anything, just sharing an opinion. Try being kinder with your words next time, we're all here because we love the same thing.
Jefferson Apgar No I'm just saying that probably I a lot of people request this and thousands of people are probably talking about this so I'm just saying that tons of people know about this that's all don't need to get you worked on on a db video because like you said "we love the same thing"
Ur mom gay
Jefferson Apgar Caulifla reminds me more of Vegeta than Goku.
Super Saiyan 1 , 2 and 3 were exciting when I first saw them but SSJ Blue is pretty strong but doesnt excite me at all. SSJ Blue is just like "meh" at this point.
Fusion Gawd Honestly, I think it's because of the overuse of the form, for me. Even during the movie, I was excited about SSJB because it was a new form that was probably way more powerful than Goku's previous forms. That's what I liked about the transformations in the series. Characters would attain these new transformations and then they would use them to overpower an opponent.
But with Blue, it's like Goku and Vegeta are mainly just pulling the form out as though it's a technique, rather than a transformation. Does anyone get excited seeing Goku fire off a Kamehameha anymore? I really don't, unless it's done in an interesting way, like when Vegeta and Future Trunks did the Father-Son Galick Gun. Instead of using Blue to become stronger and overpower their opponents, Goku pulls out the form to test Krillin and 17, or to control his ki in order to hold back during an attack. Like, in one of the more recent episodes, when Goku went Blue to fight Frieza, that had me excited. It was nice seeing Goku go Blue then because you knew he wasn't gonna be using it for some other, more boring purpose. He was using the form to surpass his limits and land a hit on Frieza. The form was even cool when Goku and Vegeta were fighting Zamasu and Black.
I think it would've been better if there had been a separate form for these things. Like, if SSJG was just like the next level of SSJ and was primarily used to become more powerful, and if SSJB was used specifically to control ones ki output.
Wait a super what? You mean Super Saiyan blue. I don't know what this Super Saiyan you're talking about
MasakoX Now this was just a random thought in my head when I was watching the video, after you brought up the "blue super giant" that made me think of some of your other videos of how a lot of these forms have some meaning behind them. maybe blue is a super giant, a super giant that will soon turn into a supernova and create something else, something new?
(hopes the new transformation is awesome)
This is the first video I've seen of yours and just wanted to say I love you in DBZ abridged and it's funny cause you kinda look like Sean Schemmal.
Hm, let's see
SSJ: useful against Frieza, useless afterwards
SSJ2: useful against Cell, useless afterwards
SSJ3: literally accomplishes nothing
SSJ4: useful against Baby, useless afterwards (if we wanna count GT)
SSG: Lets Goku deal some minimal damage to Beerus, useless afterwards
SSB: useful against Golden Frieza, useless afterwards
tl;dr no and transformations were a mistake
This is an accurate list except on one point. SSJ3 could have taken out Fat Buu...Goku said so. He just wanted to leave Buu for the "next generation" of fighters to handle. So, I would amend your SSJ3 line to: "useful against Fat Buu, useless afterward".
By the time Gotenks used SSJ3, they were already facing Super Buu, who was rather unaffected.
I'd argue the Krillian and company are probably about what SSJ1 was when it first was introduced, given how much stronger they are compared to themselves back then.
Poor Yamcha got left behind though.
Kerbal AirForce
Piccolo is SSJ2 level
Gohan in mystic is SSB kaioken level
Androids have always been stronger than ssj1
Wtf are you talking about
Broly the real God and The Strongest Super Saiyan By Krillin and company, he's referring to Tien, Krillin and possibly Roshi.
Broly the real God and The Strongest Super Saiyan Also, no. Gohan is NOT SSB KAIO-KEN LEVEL. Blocking two punches doesn't mean anything.
Farmer With Shotgun
Since a weaker Tien was able to hold back Semi perfect Cell I'm willing to say Tien is stronger too. Then again he never damaged him.
I'm just joking, I know that gets people mad. but he's probably SSB level itself at Full power.
I wish the whole SSBs next stage is to make it your own, giving each character a unique transformation and amplifying their own strengths.
0:55 - Goddamn it...You're right; you're completely right about that, and it pisses me off that you're right...
Seeing Goku go Super Saiyan for the first time...was amazing for me, and I saw just how serious he became while using its power. So I was a bit worried he was changed by this.
Plus, I saw the Toonami Ad which featured Gohan and Goku relaxing in a field during the wait for the Cell Games - both Super Saiyans.
I legitimately thought the change was permanent.
Well ever since the Android saga after the battle with 17 and 18 plus the ova with Future Trunks, SSJ doesn't have that much impact anymore since there are foes that are on par or stronger than the transformation itself. I mean sure, it was cool when it was first introduced and I will always love it but it isn't as "legendary" like before.
What do you think Masako, is that possible that Gohan will win the tournament and not Goku ? That would be awsome ! Gohan was able to 1v1 Goku even in blue form and he and Piccolo was talking about pushing Mystic form even further. I really like this idea :)
Nerulon Skyven Goku was holding back...
Nerulon Skyven I dobt know if yiu remember but Goku knocked Gohan out in one punch when he went blue.
kaioken blue
gohan is now eliminated.
Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2nd Grade, Super Saiyan 3rd Grade, Super Saiyan Full Power, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan 4, Legendary Super Saiyan, False Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Berserker etc etc... the list goes on and on!
Great video 👏👏👏😀👍👍
Super Saiyan at this point isn't really used for any large fights like the tournament unless Goku/Vegeta/Gohan had to save energy. I love SSJ, but simply put, its not that useful anymore cause they already nerfed SSJB a bit at this point of Dragon Ball Super.
Makamio yep to the point that kale can take a SSB Kamehameha with no effort
Do you really think thats a full powered SSB level Kamehameha.If you want to see a full powered Kamehameha look at the Toppo fight.Also, Goku barely took any damage from Kale.
I mentioned this is Masako's review, but go back and watch the scene where Kale is beating on Goku again, and pay special attention to his facial expression.
He doesn't look like he's in pain; he looks like he's annoyed.
Why would Goku be in pain.Kale is weak as hell and she cant even control her powers.Also, Kale powering up like Broly made her look strong.
Could Gohan have learned SSJ 3 if Goku remembered to teach him after lunch?
Squanchy Just a hypothetical since we all know Caulifa will reach that point soon
Squanchy I don;t think you get it. Ssj3 is a multiplier, basically he says that if Gohan learns ssj3 he will become much stronger. Super saiyans forms doen;t have stable power, they are multipliers of the base form's power.
I'll make a ringtone out of that "MARKETING!"
Bro do a What If on If Freeza wins the Super Dragonballs? Thanks keep up the consistent work!
Y is your hair so tall
eli sylvain cuz why not
eli sylvain It's his transformation
9:00 Really?? I was absolutely disappointed with Super Saiyan God. I had seen these leaked fake images of Super Saiyan 4 with golden hair and fur instead of black and red, and as someone who likes GT I thought that looked awesome. It was essentially Goku's so-far strongest form, made even stronger.
But then they turned him into a Kaioken-overload wannabe. When I learned what the real SSG looked like, I fumbled around the internet for ANY evidence that the real SSG design was just a hoax, and that the Golden SSJ4 I had seen WAS the real deal... but no, reality was harsh, and disappointing....
Now a days, its just a tingly feeling...
THANK YOU!!!! I Strongly agree with you MasakoX,, super saiyan 2 it's also my favourite form
He totally forgot about ssj rose 😂😂
jason gabe joy gabe that's exclusive to black
Will Lange actually, I think others can do it too. All he did was choose the color. So did golden frieza. He chose gold
Will Lange yea it is
I like god (red) and limit breaker because 1 red is vert different because it has normal hair and reminds me of kaioken and 2 limit breaker reminds me of ssj4 by having super saiyan hair style thats black
3:13 The perspective on Geet's hair is unreal right now.
I don't know but in the movie 14 the last fight between beeruse and goku ssj was awesome it bring me memories from back in the day ☺️
You should make a video explaining differences in Super Saiyan Berserk, Mystic, Blue, and Rage in what males them unique. Because sometimes listening to them they all kind of sound the same.
I think as you said when they first introduced SSJ-God that it was so different and caused a lot of waves but now it is appreciated for being something different. Same with SSJ 1 the first time (for its' time). It feels like Super is trying different variations on the formula and seeing which one sticks, and what better excuse to try things out than a new universe of sayains? But I think if this latest power up shows off a mastered SSJ Blue with a different feeling to it and they maybe show Goku with a different personality altogether than what we've seen before it could hearken back to the days when a Super Sayain was new and different. All these other forms are just distracting us. Keeping us occupied and underwhelmed while they subvert our expectations only to hopefully blow us out of the water with the big reveal. It's finding that balance between nostalgia, but with a twist that will make both crowds happy and seeing as how each new thing keeps having diminishing returns it only makes it a harder sell when the big one makes its' debut. I think when the new variation comes it'll do decently well, but it isn't the form itself that will matter, it's the story you tell with it. That's what will make or break a new transformation in my opinion.
what I like the most about SSB is the music theme we hear xD
I really wish they made more explicit the ki and powerlevel control. Also I reaaally wish they included the perfected form and vegeta god into blue switch which was reaaaally cleaver. It was both visually great (the sweet ssg red fire + burst of blue) and mechanically it made so much sense. I gave the same speed as blue, the maximum output of blue for atacking and required way less stamina, you only need mastery of both forms and ki contol to make the quick switches. Thats a great way of keeping both forms fresh, and still give them a significant power boost without needing yet another form
A strength aspect that has been sorely under appreciated since the start of Z is the creative/ intellectual strength. With Gohan poised to make a big impact in the current arc I am hopeful that this type of strength may make a return.
MasakoX, can you please give us your reaction regarding the surprising differences between the Super comic and anime regarding the end of the Zamasu arc?
I'm just waiting for the long awaited
"SSJ brown"
"Super Saiyan was all the rage."
Still chuckling over this...
I always get excited for every time they go super sayin even with super sayin blue
I think it's still relevant as their base power seems to be hardly increasing save for characters like Gohan, Krillin, 17, 18, etc
Masako, ya know what I would have liked to see...Dunno if you're a Hakusho fan, but when Sensui started using his Sacred Energy against Yusuke, and he just swiped his hand, and you could see the impacts on Yusuke. That'd been cool
The SSJ transformations don't really come with new abilities...we just presume, they are stronger. But we don't get to see the speed increase or power increase or personality change...its just a new color....and we assume its stronger
That transformation poster makes me think of Kill la Kill with the rainbow power aura. I kind of like it.
Hey Masako! You should do video on if Goku or Vegeta can revert back to regular Super Saiyan God
Could you do another top 10? I love those
for me personally i think it might be interesting to do some stuff with the saiyans' great ape form
Honestly, while sure, it's cool and I like the idea that each colour
might be representative of the chakra points, I feel like I still prefer
Gohan's Mystic transformation far more. Meanwhile Trunk's rage form
used against Black was cool, but really confusing as to how it scales
with Blue.
I'm starting to wonder if there is a scale of power
difference between the transformation colors. Maybe Gold just has a
more visual cue as to how powerful your form is, while Blue lets you
dial it up and down on the down low. Meanwhile "Legendary" Green or
"Berserk Angst", from what I've understood of it starts off relatively
on par with Gold, but begins to increase in power the longer it is
maintained, potentially surpassing the others if it goes long enough?
Now, Red was different in that it seemed to have a reversion effect that
brought a sleek, youthful appearance as if it reverts them to their
bodies prime.
Mystic really does seem a lot like Blue in that
it's subtle as it scales up and down for power output, but I feel like
it offers a higher defense against incoming power. It also feels like
it's more sustainable than Super Saiyan forms based on how Gohan
presents himself using it.
In addition, I'd really like to see
Vegeta take on a similar fighting style to the manga and begins shifting
between blue and red. His tactical nature would be able to see a valid
use of that technique as far as power conservation goes, and it would
make a lot of sense as far as strategy, not to mention differentiating
him from the others. This is actually something I want to see, each
fighter developing their own view of how to become stronger: Goku
through strength. Vegeta through stamina, Trunks through rage, and
Gohan through mental focus.
There were 7 transformations in Z. SS1, SS1-G2, SS1-G3, SS1-G4 (Mastered SS), SS2, SS2-Majin, SS3. They were transformation happy Post Freeza Arc so marketing was at play back then as well.
I have a good suggestion. Give a few details explaining god ki in the anime. I feel that the writers were on to something really good in the first encounter with Beerus, but later on they just gave up on it and fell back into the far too common " now I'll show my true form" mindset. I think that's what fuels so much of the hate for Califla and Kale. Just a simple explanation from (cough) Whis could erase at least some of the hate.
I feel like his new form is him going to hit "max power" and he'll just revert back to base form since he has used it for so long. Like it is the only form he has that can handle the amount of power he will have. Which would be weird, but it would kind of make sense. His power becomes so immense that multiplying it would be pointless(infinity multiplied by infinity is infinity sort of thing), then base form would be the only thing he could use. Hense the black hair in the poster art. But it is still such huge power that his hair is more spiked and has a glow, I don't know. But what I am saying is that maybe he becomes so powerful that he rivals Beerus, Jiren, Hit, Grand Priest, etc. And with this power, it can no longer be multiplied, so he just stays in base form for stamina reasons.
Hey if you have seen the future trunks ark of super, you would notice different patterns in god ki aura of super saiyan blue. It keeps changing depending on how much power goku or vegeta are exerting. Sometimes the aura is calm and some times you see it appear to be pointy/concentrated with rapid motions that is how you tell if he is serious or just fooling around
Don't forget about the newest form: Super Saiyan Cake Icing
At this point it's more like, "Ok, what new form of super saiyan do we have now?"
Great insight on super saiyan transformations masako. I have a topic suggestion, could you maybe talk about your thoughts or theory on why the show creators insist on thr main characters having transformations as opposed to just new techniques? All these new characters that have been introduced into super have amazing techniques like hits time skip so why can't goku and vegeta learn a brand no technique that isn't a new transformation or some kind of variation on a transformation? I can't remember thr last time vegeta displayed a new technique and the last time goku learned something new it was a complete waste "the mafuba"
Yes transformation does matter especially if the deliverance of it is astounding and spectacular like when SSJ3 came out, it was gripping youd stand thete in Awe like omg is this really Goku before us? The sheer amount of power and ferocity in fighting was something to behold, so if delivered again with such flair it would grasp the audiences attention big time
i would like to see an actual branching of the characters like vegeta follows the path of rage because he's a hot head. gohan goes into mystic. piccolo uses his mastery of ki control to turn namekian ultra, krillin becomes useful, and goku uses everything rolled into one
the art work of goku shows like he is powering down not up. From blue to regular
I kinda like the new named super saiyan forms (Super Saiyan God, Rage, Berserk, etc.). They don't just make previous forms obsolete; they have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. If done right, this could give other characters more opportunity to shine by making them more suited to different battle scenarios.
For example: If Kale and Caulifla become recurring characters (which I would like), I could totally see Kale being the frontline tank for when the Z Fighters need to take on a huge number of enemies.
"Lets just say I got a taste of something called super saiyan god and now i've learned to tap in to that power on my own."That line alone from the movie made me hype for the form in the dub version.