From the moment the video started I was sure the video would talk about this specific topic. I was hyped and the delivery was well done. I like that you keep things short and clear with a darn cool tone. I will start off saying that yes, the detonator is indeed the most consistent damage dealer out of the flare guns. It's better than the scorch shot in terms of AoE but the scorch shot is better at crowd control. The past Detonator - when you use it at first, it is not very satisfying and has indirect utilities, unlike the flare gun's combo. It was also less straight-forward than the scorch shot, so when people claimed it to be hard to use, it was probably because they didn't give it much time or because its damage seemed underwhelming. det-jumping was not well known or simply too niche to seem viable. The current Detonator - after gunmettle arrived, the weapon had a change which most people didn't actually understand, this gave us the new comprehensive det-jump mechanic that we have today (utilizing the right click). Slowly but surely player started realizing the jumping potential the weapon had until some content creators talked about it (including a new tutorial) then det-jumping became a trend of itself, leaving the detonator's damage unnoticed. Still, I do think that your mentioned creators were only stating what others said before them and were directed towards new players. I've learned about the detonator through VALVIE's videos and reddit. He actually said all there is to say about the weapon, yet it wasn't popular enough to bring everyone to understand it. (I will put 2 links down the comment). About the scorch shot: speaking casually, with the detonator you need to think and get used to the timing of your detonation, not only you need to shoot but you also need to right click. That is less intuitive than something like a rocket launcher, which you need to simply shoot at the general direction of the enemy and hit the splash damage even if you miss, just like the scorch shot - it's intuitive! And when it comes to the bouncing flare, in mid to close range and close corridors, the chance of hitting twice is significantly higher: - on close range because the bouncing flare is next to you so aggressive enemy will have to go back - and on closed corridors because it limits your enemy's movement and hitting a nearby wall is an instant double (especially if you just airblasted him there). (There are some rare instances of the bouncing flare hitting the floor immediately, which can kill unprepared squishy classes). So in terms of possible burst damage, the scorch shot can save you in matches that the consistent detonator damage wouldn't be able to. An additional stat which you've overlooked is the stun-lock, which isn't necessarily a fight back argument, but a better reasoning for "hating" the weapon, because it kills momentum (which nearly assures bonus damage from mid to close range). A stop in momentum is much easier to notice and panic from than just an afterburn and I think people were against this weapon long before he was talking about it. Because it wasn't punishing to use and easily rewarded new players for less skill, it was commonly used so its negative effects were much more familiarized. Also, Zesty is very passionate, whether it is when he gives smart arguments or when he gives dull ones, he states what he feels, not just what he thinks in an objective manner. That passion provokes discussion but also emotions, when taken too emotionally it can quickly be misinterpreted and become Chinese whispers, for me it took time to digest his spicy content but at the end it's fun, trends can be fun - when many have a common consensus (even a stupid one) they can start relating to each other as different as they are. But I do think that we should view things from different perspectives - just to keep us sharp ;) Damn I got too philosophical and dumb, it took me too much time to write and too long for you to read, but I had fun watching the video, that was my appreciation sign. Have a nice day (: The detonator's competitive use: (look out for VALVIE's answer) www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/lab0ck/best_allaround_flaregun/glncbb2/?context=3 The detonator's jumping secret: www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/bx57go/detonator_is_there_a_difference_between_regular/
Just wow… It lights me up to see such a well though-out comment with references. I read every single word and enjoyed every second reading. If this doesn’t deserve a pin, I don’t know what does!
Seeing all the other comments make me realize - I haven't said anything new. Let's keep this short: 1. People don't know the true jumping potential of the detonator (see jump_pyrokinesis and the links) 2. watch Anthid, kristianma and sketchek. 3. The DDS renders the pyro useless. 4. The detonator's full afterburn gives axtinguisher safe kills 5. Let's talk - airblast head jumping.
Correction: Gun Mettle didn't add Alt-Right... Gun Mettle increased the jump height the Detonator can reach, Explosion Mini Crits burning targets, and increased the Explosion radius. Before Gun Mettle both the Detonator and Scorch Shot were not popular in usage sidegrades, because "damage is king" and popping crit flares was the best pyro can do in people's eyes. The jump of the Detonator was pitiful and Scorch Shot damage was laughable unless someone love to stay on fire. Gun Mettle buffed both flares into decent sidegrade.(Also can't forget the Reserve Shooter used be a thing) I find it silly that people that have play the game for years but just discover the Detonator can destroy stickies, or the Detonator dealing more damage than the Scorch Shot, or the explosion has the same radius as the Scorch Shot. It almost as if they don't actually play the class or use different weapons. Only parroting what narratives they think is right without experimenting for themselves. When comes to the knockback, the Scorch Shot's knockback doesn't really kill momentum. Surprisingly it adds to people who are already generating momentum. - Boosting Charging Demoknights & Pyro ruclips.net/user/clipUgwNPCZyiHEAuNm3BgV4AaABCQ ruclips.net/video/gpRVDUak8sk/видео.html Their are more examples that are not demoknights. Like a medic following their pocket and get knocked forward but i forgot to clip that specific video. The reason is feel like a stun is mostly due to people either not/barely moving prior to getting hit. These folks don't generate enough are just fully experiencing the force give by the Scorch Shot. However, there are times when people are moving but get hit... even in open spaces, mostly because they double back on themselves or walk into a wall. They would scream stun too but - Backpedaling in Flare or Running into Walls ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxYz0x7piLJGyFsbQzCCZVZe7UUUNngrAA ruclips.net/user/clipUgxmED70hy19XEgBbKx4AaABCQ ruclips.net/user/clipUgzzHuerxHnogR2VXzt4AaABCQ Lastly the Scorch Shot doesn't have stun, for years now. After Jungle Inferno all stuns in the game were changed to slowdown for .5 secs. It just people hating CC effects, think this was brought out more by competitive players and it the mindset got spread to causal players. When it come Zesty and some other tf2tuber, I don't really take much of what they say seriously. Especially you going to demonize and complain about "Negation Mechanics" in a game where classes have special attributes/skills/weapons... also. Then you have this weird crowd that like calling TF2 a movement shooter (something more akin to Quake or Open Fortress) when it clearly a "class-based shooter" with only 1/3 of classes in the game this assessable movement from the start without unlocks. I honestly think it laziness on players complaining about the Scorch Shot and romanticizing the efforts that flare guns take to use when aiming flares on a fundamental level is identical to all expect the Manmelter .( it not much at all , and call can be spammed down chokes the same way.) Personally, I don't like the Detonator... too much self damage just for that level of jump. Correct me if I'm wrong but TF2 Beta Detonator jump height looks way more and far more satisfying to use. If the Detonator had more height or took less self-damage then I would use it more. (Also the noise please get rid of that only have when it explode... you have be deaf if get caught you get ambushed or flanked with that.) - TF2 Beta Detonator ruclips.net/video/8OXhd1iYowg/видео.html Can the Scorch Shot being annoying, yes. I don't think any user has deny that nor doesn't count on not annoying players ( mostly due to the knockback). Is this monstrous overpowered weapon that the people pretend that it is, No... well if don't like moving & paying attention to surrounding or healing in 10.5 sec (If said "you" it in reference to others, also my grammar is shit) Two other pyros you should check out are Melon and Spyko
Meaning... zero? Why is it that people always talk about something like it's the most destructive thing ever, but when I'm playing the game it's virtually harmless? Scorch Shot's flare that bounces after a hit.... you just walk around it. Yeah, it's a bit of an area denial, but it's so harmless - just don't walk into it. I really don't know what's all the fuss is about. But maybe I just don't see good flare-type Pyros. Now that I think about it, it seems like I've never, ever met a Pyro that would pose any kind of danger to me with a flare-type weapon - while I constantly am posing such a threat when I play Pyro. Same with W+M1 manouvers - I literally have almost no ecnounters with W+M1 Pyros where I die from them - but when I play, I kill people all the time by just flaming and getting closer. And I play only on community servers. Either I'm just a good Pyro player (I can't airblast for shit though and I don't feel like I'm that good), or people are reaaaaally shitty at playing as and against Pyro.
A small handful of braindead RUclipsrs aside, the Detonator has never been called a bad weapon. It's just not an easy-to-use, non-demanding "fire and forget" weapon like the Scorch Shot. The Detonator requires you to be paying attention to detonate its flares & do damage. With the Scorch Shot you simply spam at a choke, hit someone and the flare drops to the ground, hitting more enemies... or you miss, shoot the ground and do damage with the splash anyway. More people will be able to do a consistent level of damage with the Scorch Shot, whereas the Detonator requires practice and ability to do slightly more damage than its rival gun.
Yes, the detonator does take more effort and practice to get good with. I don’t think most RUclipsrs think it’s bad- I just think they are quick to say that the detonator is just a mobility tool. That said, I think the amount of practice you have to do to get good with the detonator (shouldn’t be much) pays off and opens up more options than just flanking. Thank you for the comment!
Almost no one calls the detonator a bad weapon but people constantly underrate it despite it being nearly universally the meta in both HL and various levels of pubs. So many videos act like the shot guns or stock flame thrower are on at least the same level and the the SS is clearly better. People need to stop making detonator underrated videos and start making shotguns underrated videos. But in modern tf2 post JI it is just the obvious secondary to use. The detonator does have a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling than the SS. But most tf2 players as this video points out are above the skill floor needed to do as much damage with this as the SS. And I would further argue that most of the super high skill mobility options of the det only vary rarely come up. Basic jumps are not harder than basic rocket jumps and are 90% of what you use. Which means for the vast majority of players are on a similar skill curve with the detonator as with the ss. The main tradeoff being with the SS you are working harder on getting better at directs and with the Det you are working harder on timing and jumping.
That also makes the weapon balance out better too; it takes more focus and practice on the pyros part (often in the moment too; several cases where I've missed a first detonation at a choke and adjusted my next shot/s accordingly) and it also leaves them more open. They have to reload so they can't just reactively hop away with a flare if they get ambushed, and spies can absolutely take advantage of the focus on flaring people.
I agree. There are applications where the scorch shot shines. This video was more along the lines of explaining why you shouldn’t “default” to the scorch shot without taking advantage of the detonator’s surprising offensive capabilities.
Tbh I literally can't play pyro without the detonator, it adds more movement, adds brain usage, makes the flare-airblast combo viable again, just hands down the best flare gun in my opinion
Another thing that Fishstick says about the detonator is that it is a great crowd control option, that allows you to hit multiple people with a well timed flare, as well as being a mobility option.
It’s more consistent for slower classes like Sniper or Heavy, and it’s not “hard” so much as it is just based on random chance. I usually try to mitigate this by shooting at legs do that it takes less time for the flare to hit the ground after.
@@LEDs No. When you're directly hit the shot will launch you in the air guaranteeing a successive shot. What's funny is that this even happenes with friendly players. FishStick once showed footage where hit hit a teammate and still managed to hit the enemy through this very menachic.
@@DommTom Unless the dumbass (enemy) doesn't move, he will never get hit by the second flare (unless its a reved heavy or sniper, then it depends on reflexes). Also Fish's example doesn't prove anything really considering the grenade launcher does the same thing.
I think the last time I played pyro, (very long ago) I had also been brainwashed that the detonator was only for mobility, but that's why I used it. So I probably ended up unknowingly getting more kills but only focusing on the fact that I could moon jump
I think this is one thing i wish more people did. a lot of people will have these pre-concived notions about a weapon because someone else told them so. completely ignoring a weapons own strengths to a weapon they think is better. A lot of weapons have their own strengths that do not compare to others. even if they weapon is objectively worse in some cases, ignoring what a weapon is good at will lead to a much staler game
I have 993+ hours in TF2 and only today did I learn that the detonator has the ability to detonate with the special button. This discovery made me feel like a new weapon got realesed
The detonator honestly combos so well with the dragons fury. Being able to effortlessly set people on fire with full afterburn completely negates the DF's afterburn penalty and also negates the issue of your first DF puff being weak. If you open a fight with the detonator that means once you get into DF range your shots will already be buffed. This can also be done in the middle of a fight, one of my favorite mixups is: >puff someone with the DF >airblast them into the air >switch to detonator and shoot them (causing full afterburn and minicritting since they're already on fire for 2 seconds from the first puff) >switch back to DF just in time for the airblast cooldown to end so I can finish the job. The combo would admittedly do more damage with a different flare gun but the detonator being so easy to aim means there's basically no risk of accidentally missing my shot in the heat of the moment since even if I miss their hitbox I am all but guaranteed to catch them with the detonation. The only real counter to this mixup in a 1v1 situation is be able to react fast enough to kill me before I pull my DF back out to finish the job. Even without the insane mobility the detonator would be top tier. With the mobility it becomes irreplaceable.
The Detonator definitely is hell of a secondary that’s for certain. Needing to get around isn’t just its perk, but its long range disruptive capability from snipers to groups can really serve as a distraction either on you or for the enemy supporting team to fall back.
I’ve never understood why the detonator isn’t the one being labeled as the spam weapon as it’s even easier to get mmphm for the phlog not even mentioning the flare jumping you can do with It while crit boosted
For a video so focused on rationality, it's a shame so much of it seems... a bit unbalanced in its own way. While the "consensus" is somewhat supported by the sources given -- I haven't watched all of those videos so I can't claim they're missing context -- the consensus I had always heard was a little different, and I think it's more accurate: the detonator is by no means bad, and isn't "lacking off/def capabilities," but in each of the things that matter about a weapon it is outclassed by one of the other flares. In ease of use it is absolutely outclassed by the scorch shot no contest and in burst damage and as a finisher it is outclassed by the flare gun. Since most people either want a weapon they can autopilot with or a super satisfying source of burst damage, unless you want a middle ground you should just use the one best suited to you. I would wager this is why so many of the sources cited leaned into the flanking aspect of it, since that's the one thing it does that absolutely outclasses everything else. I really do think that in the push to make this weapon seem unquestionably better, some corners were cut with those examples. Yes there are instances where the detonator lets you set someone on fire in a way the scorch shot would not, but that does not mean that you "don't even have to be accurate" -- you still have to time the detonation. As far as I'm concerned, it's actually easier to land a center-of-mass flare than it is to time detonations, since the entire game is training you to aim at the bad guys while the detonator requires an entirely different skill. Additionally, the detonator tends to lead to tunnel vision for me, since unless I'm memorizing where the target is I need to keep looking at the target after I shoot to make sure I detonate at the right time. Neither of the other main flare guns have that problem, since in the case of both you're aiming for center of mass, pulling the trigger, and waiting for the hitsound, and you can do that while moving on to your next target in the firefight.
I ran into a det pyro yesterday. Threw me for a loop cus I'm used to dodging Scorch Shot projectiles. When I saw the weapon he killed me with I was like "oh yeah, that one mini-crits too".
It absolutely is! This video was more about explaining its damage capabilities since the jumping seems to be be thing that most people associate with it
This thing(and the flare gun) has the best synergy with the flamethrowers The flank routes it can open up for pyro are fantastic for the backburner You're given more mobility in exchange of having a weaker flare punch with the degreaser It can cover the weaknesses of the dragon's fury, which is lack of crowd control And if you can get good at phlog cancelling, the detonator is a monster And for stock, it's just a good mobility option
I think the scorch shots reputation hinges specifically on its combo with the phlogistinator. When used in a vacuum the scorch shot is annoying but its potential falls short of the detonator simply because it needs to collide with a surface.
Imho the scorch shot has this sort of "gunslinger syndrome" where everyone groupthinks that it's really op when in practice it's really kind of mediocre.
I totally agree with you. Also, detonator synergises great with a dragon's fury. I can ignite group of enemies from afar and when I get close to them, finish with combo shots from dragon's fury
The fact that the detonator out performed the scorch shot makes me think that all the hate that the scorch shot gets for being overpowered is misguided. People mainly hate fighting against it because of how it can lock you in place and then hit you again for another shot. I think that most people's annoyance for the weapon is giving them the idea that it's overpowered. This and the fact that there are tons of videos that then validate their opinion of it being too strong.
The SS hate is because of the phlog. But the phlog its hard to argue the phlog is OP against against decent players who are communicating. So piling on hate for the pholg makes you look like a bad player or one that does not like to work as a team. So people choose the SS to scape goat. Maybe the phlog should not exist or be radically changed but I hate that people pile on the SS when its not what they really care about. You could argue that the SS is kinda a bad weapon design in its own right. But thats not where the hate for it comes from.
Its just cus its a brainless and easy weapon like the phlog. It doesnt take much to get good with and has really obnoxious effects like the knockback. The detonator and stock can perform way better due to higher damage and more flexibility but have higher skill floors that require more investment than just shooting at floors and walls and getting a direct hit here and there. Its too strong for how easy to use it is, is the problem.
@@TheWither129 The detonator does not require much more skill than the SS. It does have a slightly higher skill floor. But we are talking about maybe 5 hours or something. At least for just spaming. And arguably the SS encourages going for direct hits to a greater degree raising its skill ceiling over the detonator.
@@peterisawesomeplease i agree, the detonator isnt that much harder, again, the scorch shot’s skill floor is underground, you can just fire and forget, and you get a kill sometimes. Its like the huntsman’s “lucksman” joke except actually braindead and actively annoying to fight
I'm married to the Scorch Shot only because I see it as the best weapon in the Pyro's arsenal for attacking sentry nests sin air-blasting. (Even air-blasting isn't always the best way to take down any given nest.) The Scorch Shot not only does the most damage to enemy buildings, but it easily keeps the engineer from hiding behind and repairing their buildings while you chip at it, and I've had some success taking down nests without needing an explosive class for help. I know the damage output isn't the most stunning, but keeping an engineer out of the nest easily makes up for it.
I play this game since 2011 when it became free in the uber update (those where the good times), and the main classes I played since the very start were engineer and pyro. nowadays I'm more of a pyro main because I got fed up with the average stupidity of casual tf2 players that have zero concern of positioning and helping (you know, act like a TEAM). That said, I NEVER, not even in the launch of the weapon back in the pyromania update, found the scorch shot to be even remotely OP. In my vision it was always a gimmick crowd control flare gun that was made thinking more about defense than offense, and this is where the scorch shot shines, even to this day. The Detonator was always a more mobile offensive tool with crowd control that I always used with the axtinguisher and degreaser (this where the old days kids, when axtinguisher 100% crit burning players for 195 damage and degreaser gave us universal 65% weapon change speed) so I could light enemies and close the gap faster with a detonator jump to finish with the axtinguisher. I only pick the scorch shot in defense situations to spam chock points, but in reality the detonator outshines it in every way. Double hits with the scorch shot are way harder and less often than some big brains tf2bers want you to believe, and the last thing you want to happen in a offensive combat is to launch your enemy 20 meters away from you, which will happen when trying to combo it with any flamethrower because of the increase in push force on burning players (you dont want the enemy to be away from you as pyro, you want it to be the closest possible so it receives max damage from flames and can be combo easy with flare crit, shotgun finisher and axtinguisher minicrit). Oh and btw, if you have no high ground, good luck with the scorch shot. Detonator don't care if you are bellow, above or same level of your enemy, or if it is behind a wall or they're faster and can do jumps to escape. if you read all this, I hope you have a good day :)
As someone who exclusively plays combo pyro, I almost always pick the detonator or flare gun, because they are the most practical for the situation. Detonator is for closing the distance so that I can finish off with my axetinguisher, and the flare gun is for safer burst damage from outside of melee range. I would say that the two are not only sidegrades of each other, but sidegrades of the stock shotgun for pyro.
@@LEDs I also think that the shotgun is a good weapon for pyro, especially when dealing with others. However, from my own experience flare punching or using the axe works better for me than the shotgun, as it can be faster and more stylish. Also it kinda surprises and scares the other pyros without me having to go change my load out.
It’s funny how the detonator is treated like this thing that’s bad for spam, but good for flanking and getting into close range fights, when it’s actually really good at spam and lacks any of the upsides that the rest of pyro’s secondaries have that make them better for direct combat, like scorch shot double hits. If you’re using the detonator as a mobility tool and nothing more then you might as well just be using the thermal thruster.
You hit the nail on the head. I haven’t every really gotten the scorch shot hate, it can be annoying to get it by it from across the map, but that can be hard to account for the drop. Also the knock back really isn’t that bad and you need to be on fire for it to really do anything useful which can be hard to achieve against anything that isn’t a heavy. The whole scorch shot one shotting light health class in my opinion has always been dumb because you can always walk away or get a health pack if he got your from across the map, and it still takes a lot of skill to hit directs so… what makes that different from the flare gun? Let me reiterate, Some how it’s skillful for the flare gun to hit a direct hit , but it isn't scorch shot? They both have the same arc and reward you for hitting a direct shot, but both of them reward you differently. But in the end, I guess that also stems from the fact that people can’t accept that they got out played by the pyro in general even when he made the right call and abused the I unwatched flank.
Something I forgot to add is that both can delete stickies as well, but the Detonator is hands down better as it doesn't need to impact the surface near the stickies in order for you to destroy them. Also if anyone want to get better at using the Detonator VAVLIE TF2 in the past has made 3 most watch videos One that details how to jump well with it: ruclips.net/video/hgSdBW9njK0/видео.html One about a map you can practice these skills on: ruclips.net/video/gfL4dhReJCc/видео.html And one that can help you practice your timing skills: ruclips.net/video/9e0vWfzh0UU/видео.html
@@rpegaming7564 Incredible reply! You are also entirely right about the detonator being better at destroying enemy stickies. Enemy demos often have stickies lined up against walls that are somewhat hidden from your perspective (door frames being the most common), and you can’t destroy them with the scorch shot because there is no surface to shoot, yet you can destroy them with the detonator. I do this all the time!
the scorch shot is annoying because you dont need direct hits you can use it perfectly without even hitting a single person and the direct hits are kinda annoying because it messes with your movement, and can hit you twice, dealing a good amount of damage
Direct hits with fine is either. What I dislike is how easy it is to use. I mean in terms of splash damage. The splash damage in my opinion is too easy to use compared to the Detonator, which requires you to time your detonation properly and if you miss, you miss. The Scorch shot means if you miss you can still get rewarded if you just spam the ground near an enemy. It also means you can hide behind cover, come out, shoot and repeat. To effectively use the Detonator you fire one shot, watch as it flies and THEN alt-fire. Also the bouncing flare seems tk be there for nk real reason and just means the reward for direct hits is quite a lot, since you can hit enemies twice with the same flare. A simjlar weapon, the loose cannon, takes aim, timing and patience to charge it up and you sacrifice quick grenades. Much more respectful in my opinion. The Scorch shot just requires eyes. If they made it only explode on direct hit like a grenade, I would be perfectly fine. And no bouncing flare. I'm OK with knockback. It's not overpowered, just annoying for me. That's my opinion though.
I'm of the mentality of "Weapon is secretly good, gotta try it." So Imma give it a shot. I'm a sucker for weapons that can detonate on command and I really wanted to learn how to flare jump. Knowing that I can close in on fast enemy players without the risk of the damage bonus of the Powerjack at the cost of a few health really intrigues me on this playstyle.
To me, using the detonator is almost a necessity. There are so many different ways you can approach a fight, and that makes it all that more fun. I hope you have fun with it and adopt it as one of your main secondaries!
Correct. You can throw on the scorch shot and just run around spamming it at people, or you can use your brain a little more and have good timing with the detonator, and you’ll do better.
I can honestly say, I have NEVER been annoyed by the scorchshot on either end of the spectrum. Everyone around me says it's broken, and I almost peer pressured myself into accepting that, but everything the scorch shot can do, the detonator can do better; Like hitting big groups of enemies, because the scorch shot flare is just gonna bounce away, and sure it MAY hit another enemy, but from my experience this almost never happens.
Yeah. Scorch Shot is such a non-threat to me. It does less damage than Detonator. Oh, but it can hit twice? Mate, I can hit people twice with a Detonator too. I just land another shot, because it's that easy to land it.
The fact is you’re going to be hitting more enemies and doing more DPS with the detonator, which is why I think it’s a better offensive (and defensive) weapon.
scorch shot is annoying + easy to use, and does decent damage heres the thing, its so easy to use, that you can set people on fire with basically every shot, so your enemies will always be on fire
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 If you have a height advantage, sure. But as soon as you have a height disadvantage, the detonator is a direct upgrade, no questions asked.
The thing people really hate about the scorch shot is how easy to use it is in most situations and how powerful it can be in such situations. Its knockback can be infuriating to play against, and allows it to potentially hit harder than any other flare gun, the incredibly forgiving explosion radius, its only real weakness is against people above you, which can be mostly negated with good aim. I agree, the detonator has way more potential, it just needs a little extra work put in rather than fire and forget, and given the nature of pyro players, most like to fire and forget. The detonator and stock though absolutely can outclass it when you get to know them, its just how much easier and more brainless the scorch shot is that makes it so prevalent.
Yeah, that's the part I personally don't like. The other flare guns give more damage for more effort, through team support (manmelter), precision (flare gun) or timing (detonation). The scorch shot acts more like a rocket with faster projectile speed that can pop players up for much less effort.
I'm glad someone said it. Im sick and tired of "Scorch Shot OP" BS when it doesnt even hit that hard. TF2 RUclipsrs that pump out clickbait for Modern players should be excommunicated.
@@LEDs The thing that really told me was that the Scorch Shot hate was just hatebaiting by big TF2bers was when no one could counter the argument of "why are the funnelling the same spot, and not moving". No one could counter it, and would just get angry.
Interesting take. There are some things you did miss. The knockback on the scorch shot is one of the big reasons why it is hated. It also makes it very likely that the second flare hits. With that in mind, the flare for the scorch shot deals almost as much damage as a crit from the stock flare gun, as zesty calculated. That basically makes it like the stock, but with splash damage in case you miss. The ease of use argument can actually go deeper too. One thing you can take into account is familiarity. The scorch shot exploding on impact really reminds me of soldier, who is a very popular class. The detonation mechanic is closer to mid to long range sticky spam, which is a rarer thing to see, especially from new players. As a side note, I think you will also have a lot of fun with the quickybomb launcher for that reason. And I want to challenge the jumping portion. Why does the scorch shot not give you as much of a push? Because it deals less self damage. Now here is an interesting comparison. By reducing self damage, the gunboats decrease the hight of rocket jumps. And yet it is seen as an overall improvement. Why isn't it the same with the scorch shot? I think you and I stumbled on a bias in the tf2 community. And this is probably how the story went: People read the stats of the scratch shot and detonator and theorised which role each of them had. They used them accordingly and spread the word. Overtime all of it became dogma. I now realise this has happened in warzone too, with the assumptions that the hdr has a worse ads speed than the ax50 and that the m4 was better up close and the kilo- at long range. Even in pubgm, where the stock attachment made people think the m416 was more accurate than the g36 and the aug. While writing this comment I realised that you accidentally came up with a way to balance the scorch shot! When you ommited the knockback and wrote off the flare bounce the scratch shot and detonater seemed perfectly balanced, even more so as I explained. So if you remove the knockback and flare bounce mechanics their relation becomes the following: The scorch shot is now a weapon you can shoot at the wall and then quickly switch to your flamethrowers with. It allows you to make most jumps while having more health than you would with the detonator. And the detonator is now a gun with higher damage that can hit even more shots if you train with it and focuss more on each shot instead of quickly switching to something else or setting your eyes on a new target and allows you to do more jumps at the cost of more self damage. The detonator is now the more risk-reward version of the scorch shot! Even at the competitive level you could make the arguments about the detonator giving you more damage and mobility vs the scorch shot giving you most of it while making you retain more versatility. And stock now is undisputed in its role as a burst damage weapon and combo tool. Its perfect!
Interesting take indeed, and it makes for a great comment. I never use the gunboats nor do I ever play warzone, so I can't answer some of your questions, but you are right about the splash damage after the player is stunned. If it does hit, boy is it deadly.
Thing is, I think without the knockback mechanics, the scorch shot would be extremely uninteresting to both use and fight against. Whilst it definitely needs changes, the knockback does allow for some really interesting things with the scorch shot like double axtinguisher combos which are the coolest parts of the weapon imo, much cooler than the splash part.. I think removing the mini crits and decreasing the afterburn damage could help help a lot with making the scorch shot less annoying whilst still keeping its more interesting combos in place. Maybe even making it so that the splash damage effect doesn't trigger unless the flare bounces in the first place, making it worse for spamming but work just as well as a combo flare. (along with making it not charge the phlog.) Also, scorch shot jumps give so little distance that I don't think it's a worthwhile trade-off at all. That's why people don't have the same opinion with the gunboats, because there's almost no jump you can't do with gunboats that you can do with stock, compared to scorch shot and detonator.
I think the main problem with the scorch shot that makes it so much more annoying than the detonator is the fact that it requires so little investment to keep the whole enemy team on fire. You can shoot it every now and then and immediately change weapons and do other stuff (or at the very least be prepared to airblast a rocket away). With the detonator, the fact that you need to manually detonate means that you need to keep the detonator out and you probably need to keep looking at your target. Which means, you need to invest a lot more in order to keep spamming it
One thing I really liked in your analysis is the emphasis on chip damage. It’s a factor many players overlook but as someone who has played a ton of medic, few things (that don’t lead to my death) frustrate me more than having my teammates get hit by a flare or even a shotgun pellet to reset crit healing. I never really got comfortable with the detonator but the potential to do more chip than the scorch shot is very alluring. Detonator is my least played flare gun but this video has inspired me to give it another try. Cheers
I like to think that each flare secondary has its own respective place in Pyro gameplay. Flaregun is for combos, Detonation is a spam and movement and Scorch Shot is specifically for Dragon Fury, making someone's trajectory extremely predictably so direct hit is all but guaranteed and adding a lot of afterburn which Fury lacks
As a DFfan69 the Detonator is still superior because not only does it give you an easier time spamming into chokes it also lets you bomb into targets letting you get more kills easier. Even when killing scouts the sheer harassment of the detonator trumps the scorchshot bar none. The scorchshots real role is... easy gun. It is slightly less good way easier detonator which is odd because the detonator isn't that hard to begin with.
@@doctorprepologedyedeyadede3542 Eh it is technically the highest damage engage but it doesn't have a lot of uses aside from free spam on low ammo chokes
@@doctorprepologedyedeyadede3542 I generally don't like it because of the little emptiness in my heart when there is no spamming pyros on the enemy team, but it still can be nice when map has mid to high sightlines, basically making you discount huntsman if you cannot approach your enemies directly due to some reason
Vorobey tested out which he could get phlog meter full fastest with the scorch shot and detonator. The results were that he got detonator charge first. Use the detonator it’s basically the scorch shot but better if you can aim.
As someone with well over 4000 hours on pyro, the detonator can be extremely deadly when used in combos. It allows you to consistently hit targets that are in the air, like a scout with the highground or a rocket jumping soldier. Paired with the dragons fury, it is great for initiating an attack before you're within range with the df. Another overlooked aspect of the detonator is that it can also be used to escape an enemy pyro's airblast
I'm surprised nobody else brought that up! Usually, scout mains get overconfident and rush you as a pyro because they think they can outmaneuver your flares. But with the detonator, they stand almost no chance!
Finally someone sees the detonator as something more than just a mobility tool! The detonator has been my secondary of choice for a while. Being able to hit enemies behind walls is huge, and add that to the fact that you don't need to aim and you have a good weapon. Flare jumping is just an extra thing that makes it even better.
The “The detonator is a flanking weapon” idea isn’t not true, but it says the det. is only a flanking weapon but they always forget the point of the harassment potential of long range chip damage which the detonator is good at and also the fact that both the flare gun and detonator can be used as a finisher
Amazing video! this made me change my thoughts on the flare guns and pyro overall, although one thing i will miss from switching from scorch shot to detonator, is the rage you get from killing people with the scorch shot. keep up the good work! 👍
Honestly, compared to the scorch shot, the detonator feels more fun and rewarding, and opens up a more fun way to play pyro. Recently have started using detonator more often and it is really fun
As a Dragon's Fury Pyro main, the Detonator is extremely useful for me. The jumping is an obvious win, the airburst feature hits me more shots than the Scorch Shot and overall it's a great weapon that I've adapted to using. The airburst feature should not be underestimated, it's been an excellent tool for lighting enemies for the Dragon's Fury, harassing enemies at a distance and finishing wounded enemies. Overall I think it's the best for close range since you can detonate it really close to yourself. Can always hit a scout with this thing.
I think people would be much more interested in the detonator if it automatically detonated upon hitting a surface, instead of sizzling (which feels like wasting a shot). If I could make a balance change to the scorch shot and detonator, I would: 1) make detonator flares never fizzle, but burst automatically when hitting a surface; 2) remove the "blast radius" from scorch shot flares, requiring the flare to hit directly to deal damage, thus making them occupy strictly separate niches
Oh my GOD l love the detonator, I've just been wanting to say that. I really want to get a better special version than just the killstreaked one I have too. It's absolutely a fun weapon to play around with. On its own its not TOO great for damaging enemies - flare is better for up close combos, scorch is better for spamming single or multiple at a distance (its great for people you don't like!) but when you've you've a game where you don't need to worry about constantly putting a lot out with maximal assurance the detonator is amazing. Trained timing still allows you to keep people alight and you can get good damage over time with it, but once you've practiced jumping around with it you can really go nuts. Hopping into enemies faces, bouncing over someone to confuse them, bursting it on a group by deliberately avoiding a direct hit, airblast some enemies you don't like backwards and quickly bounce away with a shot, it's such a thrilling flare gun to use and can really bring you into your favorite ranges to engage people from. And it just lets all hell loose with the phlog, but that's its own discussion to have. It isn't perfect all of the time and is weakest in tight areas since it really just doesn't work as great even from practiced gameplay, but I absolutely have a fun time using it to hop at people and throw them off. Honorable mention - the manmelter's good too. Not really worth using over other flare guns in most cases unfortunately, but I still use it on phlog sometimes (I'd probably use it with backburner too if I really cared to use that much, due to airblast cost, though it's also good to counter a scorch-happy asshole on the enemy team) and it can certainly do well. The increased shot speed isn't hard to adjust to and really helps shots land once you do, and while follow ups don't get a bonus that's still another 30 on top of resetting the burn time - most light classes will need healing by then. And nothing has quite the unique sort of accomplished feeling as blasting a crit shot into a sniper, and he dies a few seconds later because no heals.
I will never use detonator until they at least double the explosion range, or half the projectile speed. Timing the explosions on the thing is absolutely miserable. It feels like the damn thing explodes with half-a-second delay after i press the button. I couldn't hit anyone with the explosion if my life depended on it - far more often i either explode it 5 meters before the enemy, or it hits the floor and disappears. I have no idea where projectile is, i have no depth perception to speak of and attempting to practice it to get a "feeling" of it went absolutely nowhere. For me using Detonator is about as effective as using the Gas passer - i basically have no secondary.
Personally what I love about the detonator is it makes me feel like a soldier being able to handle almost any situation scouts can no longer dodge flares due to detonation being manual Large groups from a distance can be lit by doing a manual detonation from above Snipers can't dodge the detonation Demos can't spam stickies due to det jumps existing Medics can die with a good detonator jump straight into the centre of their group Soldiers and other classes can no longer hide around a corner with the manual detonation It may do mini crits but still does good damage Hard to miss an shots with its detonation Invisible spies can be spy found easily with manual detonation All in all it viable in practicality any situation heck I'd even say the flare gun has less versatility than the detonator It's mobility may not be much compared to other forms of blast jumps but it's still enough to climb most areas where a demo or soldier could go but not a oyro leading to funny kills where a enemy panicks as there's a pyro in a area where they shouldn't be It's also useful for getting out of situations and rolling out of spawn if you have a medic who respawned aswell sometimes even being able to out run a medic now there may be quite a good bit of bias as I do use the detonator in most of my gameplay as pyro so if anyone else wants to give there take on the detonator then feel free to reply
i thought this was common knowledge, to call it a "situational jumpy weapon" couldn't be more of an understatement, goes to show you really can't trust everything you hear online, ever if it's from people you like.
I mostly agree with what you said and already use the detonator in the ways you explained. Im still not sure which one is better though, I feel like whenever your in the right opportunities to use the scorch shot (no places to det jump, high ground, choke points, etc) it is really fucking good. I guess it just comes down to a situation type thing
I’ll definitely take your point, I think it would be really fun to start flare jumping around and flanking other classes, but it will take some time and precision to nail that explosion. Anyway good video!
I know the scenarios aren’t perfect. They’re supposed to show you that there are situations where you can’t hit enemies with the scorch shot, only the detonator. They also show that t’s easier to hit enemies with the detonator than the scorch shot
@@LEDs I disgree as these are pretty close quarters, which Scorch Shot would fullfill by itself. My personal problem also is, that you need quite the skill for it to make long range hits (aka. getting a feel for how far it has to travel and how fast it reaches that point). Or else you try to guess if it hits by staring after it, which isn't very good since you are easy pickings that way. (What I have in head is Badwater, where there are a lot of long ranges)
Detonator with phlog is way better than scorch shot. The speed it can give you lets you catch up to enemies that are escaping. It also lets you escape way easier in comparison to the scorch shot. However, scorch shot is better than the detonator when it comes to weapons like the dragons fury. Detonator overall is better for the reasons you mentioned in this video.
Thanks for the comment! There aren't many better feelings than seeing an enemy trying to run away from you after you've activated your mmmph, and you detonator jump to catch up and finish him off.
Overall, mobility is great, consistent damage is also really good, but there is always one thing missing from the discussion. My problem with the clips you used are that you mainly used it in one loadout (phlog of all things too), when you could try talking and showing how this is the best flare gun for synergies: - Best flaregun for Axtinguisher, always inflicts full afterburn and you can easily close the distance with a jump - Flare jumps are a better alternative to thruster, working well with flanking focused flamethrowers - You can use power jack to do even longer jumps - Rake is great at offsetting the self dmg after jumps - Dragons fury is just beastly with eny target being already on fire before you close in ...and the list could be still probably longer.
Oh yea the detonator is the strongest secondary in a huge range of loadouts, maps, and game types. I am very happy this is being acknowledged more and more but even this video is pulling punches with how strong it is.
@@spiderjerusalem8505 - You can still easily oneshot light classes, and just escape away much easier, and detonator always gives full after burn making it a great combo even without the jump... and also, man, its just really fun. - Flare jump are worse for mobility yes, but you still have a very good weapon to defend yourself/help teamates. Backpack forces you to keep jumping onto ppl to do anything, since flamethrower is your only weapon now. Try doing anything on a tightly defended point with like 2-3 sentries.
@@OsaPL1, sentries are the biggest weakness, that's true, but you would be surprised how effective jetpack can be, provided you're God of movement and wm1 ;)
@@OsaPL1Yeah true which is why jetpack is probably best used for flanking or coming from an angle where it's hard to spot you or randomly getting on some ledge high up.
Honestly, the Scorch Shot is pretty much just a worse Detonator when it comes to the explosion and jumping mechanic. I really don't get why Fish even thinks that the Scorch Shot is even broken, when you may as well just use the Detonator, since the Detonator is far more superior than the Scorch Shot.
I don’t know if this is sarcastic considering I got my comparison data from Vorobey, but most of my arguments are from personal experience or simple facts about the weapon that RUclipsrs in the consensus never considered.
@@LEDs you obtained quantifiable data from a reputable source, and then compared that data with your own experience for verification, as opposed to zesty or fish fans who take their boys unquantifiable opinions at their word and just parrot hot takes into the ground. No sarcasm here, friend.
It's just that Scorch Shot doesn't need timing, it is a fire and forget weapon, and i argue it is more useful vs snipers as with the detonator you need to be in the line of sight to time your flares and snipers may stand near solid surfaces that allow the scorch shot's flare to hit him with aoe damage. The knockback is very useful against telegraphed attacks like people ready to launch ubers on a sentry nest. I have found heavies, demos, snipers and spies to hate the scorch shot more, not because of its damage being lower than the detonator, but because it provides too many benefits for too little focus to use. Displacement, destroyed stickies, hitting you from afar without exposing themselves at all, and occasionally knocking back spies out of a backstab are all useful. The detonator is a more aggresive weapon, it deals more consistent damage with timing and gives you mobility. It is extremely useful when combo-ed with the phlogistinator as it gives enemies no real way of reacting to you. When i play offensive/flank pyro i use the detonator and when i play defensively i use the scorch shot.
Very thoughtful comment with solid points brought up. I concur that the scorch shot is highly effective as a defensive weapon because of the knock back. You’re also correct about the flare double hitting enemy snipers, but I have to bring up that many times when a sniper is moving around on a high ledge somewhere, the only way to hit them is with a direct hit, leading to more misses with the scorch shot and giving the sniper a chance to kill you in the process. It’s a greater risk
having to detonate manually is the exact reason I prefer scorch shot. I can't even count how many times I am forced not to detonate because I need to reflect projectiles with my degreaser
@@LEDs i get your point. But the real question is: why bother with snipers? You have other more valuable and easier to hit targets, i just ignore snipers and leave it to my snipers spies or soldiers to just flank them. You are more suited to just dealing with combat classes like soldiers and ESPECIALLY demos who will become flabbergasted when you jump in their face with the detonator (usually they outspam you at mid range, this way you just go right in their face ), as well as denying ubers with the airblast. Knowing your role can also heavily impact your weapon choices.
@@andybogdan4380 In one of my gameplay clips when I was in Mossrock, there was a sniper standing in such a position where I had to shoot him, otherwise he probably would’ve headshot me. It’s not something I do because I “want” to disrupt/kill snipers. It’s more of a necessity, and it allows my team to more easily kill the snipers because the afterburner makes it virtually impossible for them to headshot you. Also, if you’re especially skilled with timing your detonations, you don’t need to watch your flare travel toward the enemy; you can jiggle-peak like how soldiers do when attacking engineer nests, and detonate the flare from behind cover. It’s not something for everybody, and I understand that many people will opt for easier choices.
With almost 400 hours on Pyro, yes, I agree. The Detonator is the best way to do any meaningful damage past the range of the general damage rampup, although my primary reason to use it is accessing flank routes. I trust my basic Flare Gun aim enough to do damage past the effective range, and I use the shotgun of choice in a more deathmatch-oriented scenario against actually competent players who aren't hampered much by visual particles and airblast disorientation so the direct, instant, and reliable damage is actually needed. The Scorch Shot is just very overrewarding and forgiving to use and it's still better against the cluster of enemies since you're very likely to score a direct hit against someone and the flare explosion will cover someone else as well very likely. The pseudo-stun is also quite valuable for preventing escape and evasion for a powerful melee follow-up. The two flare guns in the subject are actually the only way to make the Axtinguisher viable outside of very specific conditions.
I've been using the detonator for years, especially on the hightower server I always play on I showed people how strong it is At first everyone disagreed and just shrugged it off but the more they died to it the more aware they became It became so annoying that someone gifted me a strange detonator with the description ''hate me''
My only gripe with the detonator is that while I enjoy the weapon, it only makes me wish there was a flare gun focused around flare jumping with slightly better damage.
People way overcomplicate everything, as usual. Any damage is greater than no damage, and the Detonator simply has by far the biggest, most versatile hitbox of the three flare guns. Also, it's just plain fun, especially in the movement department.
Used to be my least used weapon to become my most favorite weapon because it's so fun. Especially satisfying when you accurately detonate the flare getting kills after firing and looking else where, killing someone else.
honestly as a noob myself, detonator doesnt seem to be hard with timed explosions, i agree it takes practice but also its rather easy to learn at the end making anyone with working depth perception and base level of timing a foe you should be aware of great vide btw, loved the info mixed with juicy hits in background top notch (also slightly lower quality mic with old vinyl music is great mix too, add charm to it :D)
@@LEDs your welcome mate! looking foward to newer videos :3 (also the "older quality" could be a nice theme for videos but youre the director here and i hope ya get up high in ranks)
The Detonator is in the same level as with the Liberty launcher. People only think because of "raw damage" and that because they see something written in red and that it makes less damage, its automaticly bad - the datonator is a good sample as you said and i agree. Yes, the detonator does make less direct-hit damage, it only barely makes mini crit damage which is the same of a stock flare gun if you hit your target a second time BUT: overall, the detonator seems be best used around corners OR if you wanna do a hell load of damage OVER TIME. And that was always pyros thing anyway - why else do you think did they remoed the res shooter airblast combo from the pyro? Not only was it "unfair" but it basically changed pyros purpose overall. I like the detonator but as for how weak it at least "feels", they should give it still more "direct hit" damage. Sure not stock level but like the old detonator which made 30 on direct hit and 45 minicrit, if i remember that right. I still love that weapon overall.
I don't think its a similar situation to the LL. The LL is not meta in HL. The detonator is. People call the LL underrated because it is a weapon worse than stock but not as much worse as people think. Calling the det underrated is like calling the stock rocket launcher underrated and is just as absurd. Post JI the det is by far the strongest secondary for pyro outside of the SS across a variety of skill levels, maps, and game types. There are some occasional exceptions where the shotguns and regular flair shine but they are rare. It also as this video points out not a crazy high skill floor weapon. It does not need buffed the shotguns and regular flair need buffed.
I think that the anoying thing of scorch shot isn't the blast, is the stunlock with the bouncing flare, because the stunlock gets out the bouncing flares weakness, the enemy has to stad still, so i think that's why everyone jumped on the scorshot and only focused the spam
As someone who always uses the detonator heres my take on it What i often hear is that it only does mini crits and i cant understand why thats a negative of the detonator because yeah its not hour 90 damage crit it still does 60 damage and thats half of a light classes health its still good damage Another thing i like about it is i think its much better paired with the degreaser for its quick switch speed allowing easier jump flanks Along with being paired with the detonator you can use to get more afterburn damage to help finish off enemies or just make em take more damage along with the extra 60 damage making it much harder for them to escape especially since you dont need percise aim if there running away 3rd it makes killing scouts easier aswell due to them not being able to dodge the detonation 4th like LED said in hia video the ability to shoot behind walls is something not to be taking lightly it is especially good when u know a enemy is waiting for you behind a wall or corner 5th there is a ability that people seem to always forget and that is the detonators explosion being able to destroy stickies meaning you dont need to waste airblast on stickies and is much more efficient I think the general consensus is that the detonator is the flare byt jumpy and i think thays the wrong mindset the detonator should be treated more like soldiers rocket launcher a all round generalist weapon being able to have mobility,utility,offense and supportive roles rather than just being another rocket jumper
I've adopted the detonator into my 2fort strategy i have. It's called "Bake and Rake" I ignite them with the detonator (which is much easier than with the flare gun cuz i can detonate it near them and have it still hit), hit them once with the rake, and swap back to the detonator to hit them again. The detonator is such a fun weapon for it, as well as just in general play.
I lately started to main pyro and fell in love with this thing I was playing on 2fort and I was killed by sniper in enemy sewers because I couldn't do crap about him, got killed and taunted. I wanted to use scorch shot, I ended up picking scorch shot and ended up dying the same way, this time shittalked, then I decided to try detonator... and ended up dominating this guy. I instandly bought a strange one and now I use it all the god damn time. And all the points you made in the video perfectly sums up why I love that thing and why it's so fun for me to use. Great video! I'll link it in my steam profile because it's pure facts!
This is precicely how I use the detonator. I always have. I think you should consider this however, the detonator timing is actually quite difficult. For people with incredibly good spatial awareness, the timing is really easy, but for a lot of people, it's difficult to pull off. I use it as a chip damage tool, a flanking tool, a closing tool, and an escape tool. It's still very much a tool, it's just an amazing tool that allows me to extend the range of my play and the versatility of my damage output. I run it with the stock Flamethrower and the Axtinguisher. The mobility the Detonator grants me allows me to ignore the Powerjack and use the far more exciting and interesting golden axe. ;) I first started using it because the sound design was fantastic. :P
Fantastic and informative reply! I also first started using it because I thought the sound was cool (similar to how we all tried using the sharpened volcano fragment when we first unlocked it because it looked cool). Turns out it was actually pretty freaking good!
I agree with everything u said and I use the detonator a lot and when i switched to the scorch shot or flare gun i missed almost all my shots at first. Also before when i heard yters talking about how it isnt good at offense is because unlike the flare gun it isnt burst which got me killed a few times
As a Detonator user I agree with everything you said, and what you show in the video is exactly how I use it. Just shoot, calculate the detonation time and profit. It's extremely easy to hit 90% of the shots once you get the hang of it. And yes, it doesn't kill often, but it does affect the enemies greatly - most of them try to run away, some are just midly annoyed, but can't do much against the spam, so they usually are getting surpressed or eventually just back off. And the fact that you can detonate your shots wherever and whenever is huge - it plays into offense and into defense and you can chase enemies more effectively. This is by far my favorite secondary for Pyro. Oh yeah, and it's perfect for building Phlog, thanks to the hit ratio. I don't use it personally, but now I think I should check it out...
The issue as I see it is that the Detonator's mobility options encourage agressive roamer gameplay while its offensive capabilities are best suited to clustered group fights. People that use it for the mobility such as myself don't often find themselves in situations where it can deal tons of damage. Basically its two functions are at odds with each other such that people can only make the most of one or the other.
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Sharpened Volcano Fragment](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UscChAbVCpE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Bad Weapon Academy: Sharpened Volcano Fragment](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] The Scorch Shot - Reignited](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xSYvoaTBT_k/mqdefault.jpg)
From the moment the video started I was sure the video would talk about this specific topic.
I was hyped and the delivery was well done. I like that you keep things short and clear with a darn cool tone. I will start off saying that yes, the detonator is indeed the most consistent damage dealer out of the flare guns. It's better than the scorch shot in terms of AoE but the scorch shot is better at crowd control.
The past Detonator - when you use it at first, it is not very satisfying and has indirect utilities, unlike the flare gun's combo. It was also less straight-forward than the scorch shot, so when people claimed it to be hard to use, it was probably because they didn't give it much time or because its damage seemed underwhelming. det-jumping was not well known or simply too niche to seem viable.
The current Detonator - after gunmettle arrived, the weapon had a change which most people didn't actually understand, this gave us the new comprehensive det-jump mechanic that we have today (utilizing the right click). Slowly but surely player started realizing the jumping potential the weapon had until some content creators talked about it (including a new tutorial) then det-jumping became a trend of itself, leaving the detonator's damage unnoticed. Still, I do think that your mentioned creators were only stating what others said before them and were directed towards new players.
I've learned about the detonator through VALVIE's videos and reddit. He actually said all there is to say about the weapon, yet it wasn't popular enough to bring everyone to understand it.
(I will put 2 links down the comment).
About the scorch shot: speaking casually, with the detonator you need to think and get used to the timing of your detonation, not only you need to shoot but you also need to right click.
That is less intuitive than something like a rocket launcher, which you need to simply shoot at the general direction of the enemy and hit the splash damage even if you miss, just like the scorch shot - it's intuitive! And when it comes to the bouncing flare, in mid to close range and close corridors, the chance of hitting twice is significantly higher:
- on close range because the bouncing flare is next to you
so aggressive enemy will have to go back
- and on closed corridors because it limits your enemy's movement and hitting a nearby wall is an instant double (especially if you just airblasted him there). (There are some rare instances of the bouncing flare hitting the floor immediately, which can kill unprepared squishy classes). So in terms of possible burst damage, the scorch shot can save you in matches that the consistent detonator damage wouldn't be able to.
An additional stat which you've overlooked is the stun-lock, which isn't necessarily a fight back argument, but a better reasoning for "hating" the weapon, because it kills momentum (which nearly assures bonus damage from mid to close range). A stop in momentum is much easier to notice and panic from than just an afterburn and I think people were against this weapon long before he was talking about it. Because it wasn't punishing to use and easily rewarded new players for less skill, it was commonly used so its negative effects were much more familiarized.
Also, Zesty is very passionate, whether it is when he gives smart arguments or when he gives dull ones, he states what he feels, not just what he thinks in an objective manner. That passion provokes discussion but also emotions, when taken too emotionally it can quickly be misinterpreted and become Chinese whispers, for me it took time to digest his spicy content but at the end it's fun, trends can be fun - when many have a common consensus (even a stupid one) they can start relating to each other as different as they are.
But I do think that we should view things from different perspectives - just to keep us sharp ;)
Damn I got too philosophical and dumb, it took me too much time to write and too long for you to read, but I had fun watching the video, that was my appreciation sign.
Have a nice day (:
The detonator's competitive use: (look out for VALVIE's answer)
www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/lab0ck/best_allaround_flaregun/glncbb2/?context=3
The detonator's jumping secret:
www.reddit.com/r/truetf2/comments/bx57go/detonator_is_there_a_difference_between_regular/
Just wow… It lights me up to see such a well though-out comment with references. I read every single word and enjoyed every second reading. If this doesn’t deserve a pin, I don’t know what does!
Seeing all the other comments make me realize
- I haven't said anything new.
Let's keep this short:
1. People don't know the true jumping potential of the detonator (see jump_pyrokinesis and the links)
2. watch Anthid, kristianma and sketchek.
3. The DDS renders the pyro useless.
4. The detonator's full afterburn gives axtinguisher safe kills
5. Let's talk - airblast head jumping.
@@LEDs Oh wait, you actually responded.
Sorry - was writing the second comment to avoid a reply XD
Holy Cows ! +1
Correction: Gun Mettle didn't add Alt-Right... Gun Mettle increased the jump height the Detonator can reach, Explosion Mini Crits burning targets, and increased the Explosion radius.
Before Gun Mettle both the Detonator and Scorch Shot were not popular in usage sidegrades, because "damage is king" and popping crit flares was the best pyro can do in people's eyes. The jump of the Detonator was pitiful and Scorch Shot damage was laughable unless someone love to stay on fire. Gun Mettle buffed both flares into decent sidegrade.(Also can't forget the Reserve Shooter used be a thing)
I find it silly that people that have play the game for years but just discover the Detonator can destroy stickies, or the Detonator dealing more damage than the Scorch Shot, or the explosion has the same radius as the Scorch Shot. It almost as if they don't actually play the class or use different weapons. Only parroting what narratives they think is right without experimenting for themselves.
When comes to the knockback, the Scorch Shot's knockback doesn't really kill momentum. Surprisingly it adds to people who are already generating momentum.
- Boosting Charging Demoknights & Pyro
ruclips.net/user/clipUgwNPCZyiHEAuNm3BgV4AaABCQ
ruclips.net/video/gpRVDUak8sk/видео.html
Their are more examples that are not demoknights. Like a medic following their pocket and get knocked forward but i forgot to clip that specific video.
The reason is feel like a stun is mostly due to people either not/barely moving prior to getting hit. These folks don't generate enough are just fully experiencing the force give by the Scorch Shot. However, there are times when people are moving but get hit... even in open spaces, mostly because they double back on themselves or walk into a wall. They would scream stun too but
- Backpedaling in Flare or Running into Walls
ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxYz0x7piLJGyFsbQzCCZVZe7UUUNngrAA
ruclips.net/user/clipUgxmED70hy19XEgBbKx4AaABCQ
ruclips.net/user/clipUgzzHuerxHnogR2VXzt4AaABCQ
Lastly the Scorch Shot doesn't have stun, for years now. After Jungle Inferno all stuns in the game were changed to slowdown for .5 secs. It just people hating CC effects, think this was brought out more by competitive players and it the mindset got spread to causal players.
When it come Zesty and some other tf2tuber, I don't really take much of what they say seriously. Especially you going to demonize and complain about "Negation Mechanics" in a game where classes have special attributes/skills/weapons... also. Then you have this weird crowd that like calling TF2 a movement shooter (something more akin to Quake or Open Fortress) when it clearly a "class-based shooter" with only 1/3 of classes in the game this assessable movement from the start without unlocks.
I honestly think it laziness on players complaining about the Scorch Shot and romanticizing the efforts that flare guns take to use when aiming flares on a fundamental level is identical to all expect the Manmelter .( it not much at all , and call can be spammed down chokes the same way.)
Personally, I don't like the Detonator... too much self damage just for that level of jump. Correct me if I'm wrong but TF2 Beta Detonator jump height looks way more and far more satisfying to use. If the Detonator had more height or took less self-damage then I would use it more. (Also the noise please get rid of that only have when it explode... you have be deaf if get caught you get ambushed or flanked with that.)
- TF2 Beta Detonator
ruclips.net/video/8OXhd1iYowg/видео.html
Can the Scorch Shot being annoying, yes. I don't think any user has deny that nor doesn't count on not annoying players ( mostly due to the knockback).
Is this monstrous overpowered weapon that the people pretend that it is, No... well if don't like moving & paying attention to surrounding or healing in 10.5 sec
(If said "you" it in reference to others, also my grammar is shit)
Two other pyros you should check out are Melon and Spyko
I like the detonator as apposed to the other flare guns. Detonator jumping is fun whilst having a good source of damage at the same time.
Right on.
Exactly
I use scorch shot not because of its fire damage, but because of the emotional damage it does to people.
😡🤯
thats just an ass move
Evil
Meaning... zero? Why is it that people always talk about something like it's the most destructive thing ever, but when I'm playing the game it's virtually harmless? Scorch Shot's flare that bounces after a hit.... you just walk around it. Yeah, it's a bit of an area denial, but it's so harmless - just don't walk into it. I really don't know what's all the fuss is about. But maybe I just don't see good flare-type Pyros. Now that I think about it, it seems like I've never, ever met a Pyro that would pose any kind of danger to me with a flare-type weapon - while I constantly am posing such a threat when I play Pyro. Same with W+M1 manouvers - I literally have almost no ecnounters with W+M1 Pyros where I die from them - but when I play, I kill people all the time by just flaming and getting closer. And I play only on community servers. Either I'm just a good Pyro player (I can't airblast for shit though and I don't feel like I'm that good), or people are reaaaaally shitty at playing as and against Pyro.
Thats why i wont use it in servers
A small handful of braindead RUclipsrs aside, the Detonator has never been called a bad weapon. It's just not an easy-to-use, non-demanding "fire and forget" weapon like the Scorch Shot.
The Detonator requires you to be paying attention to detonate its flares & do damage. With the Scorch Shot you simply spam at a choke, hit someone and the flare drops to the ground, hitting more enemies... or you miss, shoot the ground and do damage with the splash anyway. More people will be able to do a consistent level of damage with the Scorch Shot, whereas the Detonator requires practice and ability to do slightly more damage than its rival gun.
Yes, the detonator does take more effort and practice to get good with. I don’t think most RUclipsrs think it’s bad- I just think they are quick to say that the detonator is just a mobility tool.
That said, I think the amount of practice you have to do to get good with the detonator (shouldn’t be much) pays off and opens up more options than just flanking.
Thank you for the comment!
Almost no one calls the detonator a bad weapon but people constantly underrate it despite it being nearly universally the meta in both HL and various levels of pubs. So many videos act like the shot guns or stock flame thrower are on at least the same level and the the SS is clearly better. People need to stop making detonator underrated videos and start making shotguns underrated videos.
But in modern tf2 post JI it is just the obvious secondary to use. The detonator does have a higher skill floor and a higher skill ceiling than the SS. But most tf2 players as this video points out are above the skill floor needed to do as much damage with this as the SS. And I would further argue that most of the super high skill mobility options of the det only vary rarely come up. Basic jumps are not harder than basic rocket jumps and are 90% of what you use. Which means for the vast majority of players are on a similar skill curve with the detonator as with the ss. The main tradeoff being with the SS you are working harder on getting better at directs and with the Det you are working harder on timing and jumping.
That also makes the weapon balance out better too; it takes more focus and practice on the pyros part (often in the moment too; several cases where I've missed a first detonation at a choke and adjusted my next shot/s accordingly) and it also leaves them more open. They have to reload so they can't just reactively hop away with a flare if they get ambushed, and spies can absolutely take advantage of the focus on flaring people.
And besides, I don't have a det myself
@@TauCannon Get one!
I feel the two are actually sidegrades to each other. They both have offensive power to spare, but they exert that power differently.
I agree. There are applications where the scorch shot shines. This video was more along the lines of explaining why you shouldn’t “default” to the scorch shot without taking advantage of the detonator’s surprising offensive capabilities.
Tbh I literally can't play pyro without the detonator, it adds more movement, adds brain usage, makes the flare-airblast combo viable again, just hands down the best flare gun in my opinion
Same. I use the detonator at LEAST 90% of the time when I play pyro. I feel so restricted without it
“Adds brain usage.” Is a beautiful sentence.
@@mrmr_zoomie honestly pyro needs the brain usage.
Another thing that Fishstick says about the detonator is that it is a great crowd control option, that allows you to hit multiple people with a well timed flare, as well as being a mobility option.
Hitting scorch shot's second hit isn't that hard, since it stuns the enemy by launching them in the air.
It’s more consistent for slower classes like Sniper or Heavy, and it’s not “hard” so much as it is just based on random chance. I usually try to mitigate this by shooting at legs do that it takes less time for the flare to hit the ground after.
Actually, a direct hit with the Scortch Shot already will hit the enemy twice because of that stupid stun-locking effect.
@@DommTom Not always
@@LEDs No. When you're directly hit the shot will launch you in the air guaranteeing a successive shot. What's funny is that this even happenes with friendly players. FishStick once showed footage where hit hit a teammate and still managed to hit the enemy through this very menachic.
@@DommTom Unless the dumbass (enemy) doesn't move, he will never get hit by the second flare (unless its a reved heavy or sniper, then it depends on reflexes). Also Fish's example doesn't prove anything really considering the grenade launcher does the same thing.
I think the last time I played pyro, (very long ago) I had also been brainwashed that the detonator was only for mobility, but that's why I used it. So I probably ended up unknowingly getting more kills but only focusing on the fact that I could moon jump
Thank you for sharing!
yo is that scootyman from tf2 jailbreak servers?
@@Vibing_Wave HI
I think this is one thing i wish more people did.
a lot of people will have these pre-concived notions about a weapon because someone else told them so.
completely ignoring a weapons own strengths to a weapon they think is better.
A lot of weapons have their own strengths that do not compare to others.
even if they weapon is objectively worse in some cases, ignoring what a weapon is good at will lead to a much staler game
Nicely put.
I used the weapon for long time before watching a opinion about this one, and I found better the Flare Gun.
I have 993+ hours in TF2 and only today did I learn that the detonator has the ability to detonate with the special button. This discovery made me feel like a new weapon got realesed
You have tô be kiddin
either youre lying or incredibly stupid
How
The detonator honestly combos so well with the dragons fury. Being able to effortlessly set people on fire with full afterburn completely negates the DF's afterburn penalty and also negates the issue of your first DF puff being weak. If you open a fight with the detonator that means once you get into DF range your shots will already be buffed.
This can also be done in the middle of a fight, one of my favorite mixups is:
>puff someone with the DF
>airblast them into the air
>switch to detonator and shoot them (causing full afterburn and minicritting since they're already on fire for 2 seconds from the first puff)
>switch back to DF just in time for the airblast cooldown to end so I can finish the job.
The combo would admittedly do more damage with a different flare gun but the detonator being so easy to aim means there's basically no risk of accidentally missing my shot in the heat of the moment since even if I miss their hitbox I am all but guaranteed to catch them with the detonation. The only real counter to this mixup in a 1v1 situation is be able to react fast enough to kill me before I pull my DF back out to finish the job.
Even without the insane mobility the detonator would be top tier. With the mobility it becomes irreplaceable.
The Detonator definitely is hell of a secondary that’s for certain. Needing to get around isn’t just its perk, but its long range disruptive capability from snipers to groups can really serve as a distraction either on you or for the enemy supporting team to fall back.
I’ve never understood why the detonator isn’t the one being labeled as the spam weapon as it’s even easier to get mmphm for the phlog not even mentioning the flare jumping you can do with It while crit boosted
Ive seen a phlog pyro using a detonator, its genuinely much more terrifying than scorch phlog because the detonator can hit through walls
The scorch shot is also easier to dodge
For a video so focused on rationality, it's a shame so much of it seems... a bit unbalanced in its own way.
While the "consensus" is somewhat supported by the sources given -- I haven't watched all of those videos so I can't claim they're missing context -- the consensus I had always heard was a little different, and I think it's more accurate: the detonator is by no means bad, and isn't "lacking off/def capabilities," but in each of the things that matter about a weapon it is outclassed by one of the other flares. In ease of use it is absolutely outclassed by the scorch shot no contest and in burst damage and as a finisher it is outclassed by the flare gun. Since most people either want a weapon they can autopilot with or a super satisfying source of burst damage, unless you want a middle ground you should just use the one best suited to you. I would wager this is why so many of the sources cited leaned into the flanking aspect of it, since that's the one thing it does that absolutely outclasses everything else.
I really do think that in the push to make this weapon seem unquestionably better, some corners were cut with those examples. Yes there are instances where the detonator lets you set someone on fire in a way the scorch shot would not, but that does not mean that you "don't even have to be accurate" -- you still have to time the detonation. As far as I'm concerned, it's actually easier to land a center-of-mass flare than it is to time detonations, since the entire game is training you to aim at the bad guys while the detonator requires an entirely different skill. Additionally, the detonator tends to lead to tunnel vision for me, since unless I'm memorizing where the target is I need to keep looking at the target after I shoot to make sure I detonate at the right time. Neither of the other main flare guns have that problem, since in the case of both you're aiming for center of mass, pulling the trigger, and waiting for the hitsound, and you can do that while moving on to your next target in the firefight.
0:08 Shotgun
Out of those 4
@@RealWheezerTF2, Detonator.
(add vodka in gas passer) @@HydroHemp
I didn't know people didn't like the Detonator. I love using it to hit enemies just about retreating behind a wall.
I run into the problem when I use the Detonator like a Flare Gun, making it worse
Also, I love your music video Russian Time, how are you doing?
I ran into a det pyro yesterday. Threw me for a loop cus I'm used to dodging Scorch Shot projectiles. When I saw the weapon he killed me with I was like "oh yeah, that one mini-crits too".
Jumping with the Detonator is still pretty cool tho! :D
It absolutely is! This video was more about explaining its damage capabilities since the jumping seems to be be thing that most people associate with it
This thing(and the flare gun) has the best synergy with the flamethrowers
The flank routes it can open up for pyro are fantastic for the backburner
You're given more mobility in exchange of having a weaker flare punch with the degreaser
It can cover the weaknesses of the dragon's fury, which is lack of crowd control
And if you can get good at phlog cancelling, the detonator is a monster
And for stock, it's just a good mobility option
i am glad that there is another sensible person out here preaching the good name of the detonator
I think the scorch shots reputation hinges specifically on its combo with the phlogistinator. When used in a vacuum the scorch shot is annoying but its potential falls short of the detonator simply because it needs to collide with a surface.
Imho the scorch shot has this sort of "gunslinger syndrome" where everyone groupthinks that it's really op when in practice it's really kind of mediocre.
Supremely informative. I like the conclusions and consensus sections safe to say I'll be giving the detonator another shot.
I totally agree with you.
Also, detonator synergises great with a dragon's fury.
I can ignite group of enemies from afar and when I get close to them, finish with combo shots from dragon's fury
The fact that the detonator out performed the scorch shot makes me think that all the hate that the scorch shot gets for being overpowered is misguided. People mainly hate fighting against it because of how it can lock you in place and then hit you again for another shot. I think that most people's annoyance for the weapon is giving them the idea that it's overpowered. This and the fact that there are tons of videos that then validate their opinion of it being too strong.
Yup. Confirmation bias and bandwagon fallacy.
The SS hate is because of the phlog. But the phlog its hard to argue the phlog is OP against against decent players who are communicating. So piling on hate for the pholg makes you look like a bad player or one that does not like to work as a team. So people choose the SS to scape goat.
Maybe the phlog should not exist or be radically changed but I hate that people pile on the SS when its not what they really care about. You could argue that the SS is kinda a bad weapon design in its own right. But thats not where the hate for it comes from.
Its just cus its a brainless and easy weapon like the phlog. It doesnt take much to get good with and has really obnoxious effects like the knockback.
The detonator and stock can perform way better due to higher damage and more flexibility but have higher skill floors that require more investment than just shooting at floors and walls and getting a direct hit here and there. Its too strong for how easy to use it is, is the problem.
@@TheWither129 The detonator does not require much more skill than the SS. It does have a slightly higher skill floor. But we are talking about maybe 5 hours or something. At least for just spaming. And arguably the SS encourages going for direct hits to a greater degree raising its skill ceiling over the detonator.
@@peterisawesomeplease i agree, the detonator isnt that much harder, again, the scorch shot’s skill floor is underground, you can just fire and forget, and you get a kill sometimes. Its like the huntsman’s “lucksman” joke except actually braindead and actively annoying to fight
I'm married to the Scorch Shot only because I see it as the best weapon in the Pyro's arsenal for attacking sentry nests sin air-blasting. (Even air-blasting isn't always the best way to take down any given nest.) The Scorch Shot not only does the most damage to enemy buildings, but it easily keeps the engineer from hiding behind and repairing their buildings while you chip at it, and I've had some success taking down nests without needing an explosive class for help. I know the damage output isn't the most stunning, but keeping an engineer out of the nest easily makes up for it.
I play this game since 2011 when it became free in the uber update (those where the good times), and the main classes I played since the very start were engineer and pyro. nowadays I'm more of a pyro main because I got fed up with the average stupidity of casual tf2 players that have zero concern of positioning and helping (you know, act like a TEAM).
That said, I NEVER, not even in the launch of the weapon back in the pyromania update, found the scorch shot to be even remotely OP. In my vision it was always a gimmick crowd control flare gun that was made thinking more about defense than offense, and this is where the scorch shot shines, even to this day. The Detonator was always a more mobile offensive tool with crowd control that I always used with the axtinguisher and degreaser (this where the old days kids, when axtinguisher 100% crit burning players for 195 damage and degreaser gave us universal 65% weapon change speed) so I could light enemies and close the gap faster with a detonator jump to finish with the axtinguisher. I only pick the scorch shot in defense situations to spam chock points, but in reality the detonator outshines it in every way. Double hits with the scorch shot are way harder and less often than some big brains tf2bers want you to believe, and the last thing you want to happen in a offensive combat is to launch your enemy 20 meters away from you, which will happen when trying to combo it with any flamethrower because of the increase in push force on burning players (you dont want the enemy to be away from you as pyro, you want it to be the closest possible so it receives max damage from flames and can be combo easy with flare crit, shotgun finisher and axtinguisher minicrit).
Oh and btw, if you have no high ground, good luck with the scorch shot. Detonator don't care if you are bellow, above or same level of your enemy, or if it is behind a wall or they're faster and can do jumps to escape.
if you read all this, I hope you have a good day :)
Of course, I read all of this! I agree 100%!
add a TLDR PLZ
@@Mr.SlappyTF2 well, TLDR: Detonator better than scorch shot in everything, from damage to mobility, since release of the weapon.
I think the scorch isn't op but very annoying (distinct difference)
As someone who exclusively plays combo pyro, I almost always pick the detonator or flare gun, because they are the most practical for the situation. Detonator is for closing the distance so that I can finish off with my axetinguisher, and the flare gun is for safer burst damage from outside of melee range. I would say that the two are not only sidegrades of each other, but sidegrades of the stock shotgun for pyro.
I agree. I only use the shotgun if there are a lot of pyros on the other team, or if I wanna switch things up
@@LEDs I also think that the shotgun is a good weapon for pyro, especially when dealing with others. However, from my own experience flare punching or using the axe works better for me than the shotgun, as it can be faster and more stylish. Also it kinda surprises and scares the other pyros without me having to go change my load out.
@@travisjones3120 Flare guns have the long-range capabilities that shotguns do not, which is why I almost always use the flare guns
It’s funny how the detonator is treated like this thing that’s bad for spam, but good for flanking and getting into close range fights, when it’s actually really good at spam and lacks any of the upsides that the rest of pyro’s secondaries have that make them better for direct combat, like scorch shot double hits. If you’re using the detonator as a mobility tool and nothing more then you might as well just be using the thermal thruster.
Well put.
The detonator was my 1st flaregun and I’ll always love it!
zesty jesus made one video and everyone just believed him
You hit the nail on the head. I haven’t every really gotten the scorch shot hate, it can be annoying to get it by it from across the map, but that can be hard to account for the drop. Also the knock back really isn’t that bad and you need to be on fire for it to really do anything useful which can be hard to achieve against anything that isn’t a heavy. The whole scorch shot one shotting light health class in my opinion has always been dumb because you can always walk away or get a health pack if he got your from across the map, and it still takes a lot of skill to hit directs so… what makes that different from the flare gun? Let me reiterate, Some how it’s skillful for the flare gun to hit a direct hit , but it isn't scorch shot? They both have the same arc and reward you for hitting a direct shot, but both of them reward you differently. But in the end, I guess that also stems from the fact that people can’t accept that they got out played by the pyro in general even when he made the right call and abused the I unwatched flank.
Something I forgot to add is that both can delete stickies as well, but the Detonator is hands down better as it doesn't need to impact the surface near the stickies in order for you to destroy them.
Also if anyone want to get better at using the Detonator VAVLIE TF2 in the past has made 3 most watch videos
One that details how to jump well with it: ruclips.net/video/hgSdBW9njK0/видео.html
One about a map you can practice these skills on: ruclips.net/video/gfL4dhReJCc/видео.html
And one that can help you practice your timing skills: ruclips.net/video/9e0vWfzh0UU/видео.html
@@rpegaming7564 Incredible reply! You are also entirely right about the detonator being better at destroying enemy stickies. Enemy demos often have stickies lined up against walls that are somewhat hidden from your perspective (door frames being the most common), and you can’t destroy them with the scorch shot because there is no surface to shoot, yet you can destroy them with the detonator. I do this all the time!
the scorch shot is annoying because you dont need direct hits
you can use it perfectly without even hitting a single person
and the direct hits are kinda annoying because it messes with your movement, and can hit you twice, dealing a good amount of damage
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 that first point is the same for detonator
Direct hits with fine is either. What I dislike is how easy it is to use. I mean in terms of splash damage. The splash damage in my opinion is too easy to use compared to the Detonator, which requires you to time your detonation properly and if you miss, you miss. The Scorch shot means if you miss you can still get rewarded if you just spam the ground near an enemy. It also means you can hide behind cover, come out, shoot and repeat. To effectively use the Detonator you fire one shot, watch as it flies and THEN alt-fire. Also the bouncing flare seems tk be there for nk real reason and just means the reward for direct hits is quite a lot, since you can hit enemies twice with the same flare. A simjlar weapon, the loose cannon, takes aim, timing and patience to charge it up and you sacrifice quick grenades. Much more respectful in my opinion. The Scorch shot just requires eyes. If they made it only explode on direct hit like a grenade, I would be perfectly fine. And no bouncing flare. I'm OK with knockback. It's not overpowered, just annoying for me. That's my opinion though.
I mean this in the nicest way possible, this video, with the way you talk and the background music, gives me Peanuts TV specials vibes.
Thank you
I'm of the mentality of "Weapon is secretly good, gotta try it." So Imma give it a shot. I'm a sucker for weapons that can detonate on command and I really wanted to learn how to flare jump. Knowing that I can close in on fast enemy players without the risk of the damage bonus of the Powerjack at the cost of a few health really intrigues me on this playstyle.
To me, using the detonator is almost a necessity. There are so many different ways you can approach a fight, and that makes it all that more fun. I hope you have fun with it and adopt it as one of your main secondaries!
it still requires brain usage. Its still good, you just need to time good like a stickyspamming demo
Correct. You can throw on the scorch shot and just run around spamming it at people, or you can use your brain a little more and have good timing with the detonator, and you’ll do better.
I can honestly say, I have NEVER been annoyed by the scorchshot on either end of the spectrum. Everyone around me says it's broken, and I almost peer pressured myself into accepting that, but everything the scorch shot can do, the detonator can do better; Like hitting big groups of enemies, because the scorch shot flare is just gonna bounce away, and sure it MAY hit another enemy, but from my experience this almost never happens.
Yeah. Scorch Shot is such a non-threat to me. It does less damage than Detonator. Oh, but it can hit twice? Mate, I can hit people twice with a Detonator too. I just land another shot, because it's that easy to land it.
The fact is you’re going to be hitting more enemies and doing more DPS with the detonator, which is why I think it’s a better offensive (and defensive) weapon.
scorch shot is annoying + easy to use, and does decent damage
heres the thing, its so easy to use, that you can set people on fire with basically every shot, so your enemies will always be on fire
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 Detonator is way easier
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 If you have a height advantage, sure. But as soon as you have a height disadvantage, the detonator is a direct upgrade, no questions asked.
at least detonator makes you learn SOMETHING....
and dying to the detonator just feels more fair than SS(hit)
The thing people really hate about the scorch shot is how easy to use it is in most situations and how powerful it can be in such situations. Its knockback can be infuriating to play against, and allows it to potentially hit harder than any other flare gun, the incredibly forgiving explosion radius, its only real weakness is against people above you, which can be mostly negated with good aim.
I agree, the detonator has way more potential, it just needs a little extra work put in rather than fire and forget, and given the nature of pyro players, most like to fire and forget. The detonator and stock though absolutely can outclass it when you get to know them, its just how much easier and more brainless the scorch shot is that makes it so prevalent.
Yeah, that's the part I personally don't like. The other flare guns give more damage for more effort, through team support (manmelter), precision (flare gun) or timing (detonation). The scorch shot acts more like a rocket with faster projectile speed that can pop players up for much less effort.
I'm glad someone said it. Im sick and tired of "Scorch Shot OP" BS when it doesnt even hit that hard. TF2 RUclipsrs that pump out clickbait for Modern players should be excommunicated.
Same. All of my views about various weapons, maps, and gameplay are all personally obtained and not copied off of other people.
@@LEDs The thing that really told me was that the Scorch Shot hate was just hatebaiting by big TF2bers was when no one could counter the argument of "why are the funnelling the same spot, and not moving". No one could counter it, and would just get angry.
Interesting take.
There are some things you did miss.
The knockback on the scorch shot is one of the big reasons why it is hated. It also makes it very likely that the second flare hits.
With that in mind, the flare for the scorch shot deals almost as much damage as a crit from the stock flare gun, as zesty calculated. That basically makes it like the stock, but with splash damage in case you miss.
The ease of use argument can actually go deeper too. One thing you can take into account is familiarity. The scorch shot exploding on impact really reminds me of soldier, who is a very popular class. The detonation mechanic is closer to mid to long range sticky spam, which is a rarer thing to see, especially from new players. As a side note, I think you will also have a lot of fun with the quickybomb launcher for that reason.
And I want to challenge the jumping portion. Why does the scorch shot not give you as much of a push? Because it deals less self damage.
Now here is an interesting comparison. By reducing self damage, the gunboats decrease the hight of rocket jumps. And yet it is seen as an overall improvement. Why isn't it the same with the scorch shot?
I think you and I stumbled on a bias in the tf2 community. And this is probably how the story went:
People read the stats of the scratch shot and detonator and theorised which role each of them had. They used them accordingly and spread the word. Overtime all of it became dogma.
I now realise this has happened in warzone too, with the assumptions that the hdr has a worse ads speed than the ax50 and that the m4 was better up close and the kilo- at long range. Even in pubgm, where the stock attachment made people think the m416 was more accurate than the g36 and the aug.
While writing this comment I realised that you accidentally came up with a way to balance the scorch shot!
When you ommited the knockback and wrote off the flare bounce the scratch shot and detonater seemed perfectly balanced, even more so as I explained. So if you remove the knockback and flare bounce mechanics their relation becomes the following:
The scorch shot is now a weapon you can shoot at the wall and then quickly switch to your flamethrowers with. It allows you to make most jumps while having more health than you would with the detonator. And the detonator is now a gun with higher damage that can hit even more shots if you train with it and focuss more on each shot instead of quickly switching to something else or setting your eyes on a new target and allows you to do more jumps at the cost of more self damage. The detonator is now the more risk-reward version of the scorch shot! Even at the competitive level you could make the arguments about the detonator giving you more damage and mobility vs the scorch shot giving you most of it while making you retain more versatility. And stock now is undisputed in its role as a burst damage weapon and combo tool. Its perfect!
Interesting take indeed, and it makes for a great comment. I never use the gunboats nor do I ever play warzone, so I can't answer some of your questions, but you are right about the splash damage after the player is stunned. If it does hit, boy is it deadly.
I guess it's because gunboats don't reduce rocketjump below some specific threshold
Thing is, I think without the knockback mechanics, the scorch shot would be extremely uninteresting to both use and fight against. Whilst it definitely needs changes, the knockback does allow for some really interesting things with the scorch shot like double axtinguisher combos which are the coolest parts of the weapon imo, much cooler than the splash part.. I think removing the mini crits and decreasing the afterburn damage could help help a lot with making the scorch shot less annoying whilst still keeping its more interesting combos in place. Maybe even making it so that the splash damage effect doesn't trigger unless the flare bounces in the first place, making it worse for spamming but work just as well as a combo flare. (along with making it not charge the phlog.) Also, scorch shot jumps give so little distance that I don't think it's a worthwhile trade-off at all. That's why people don't have the same opinion with the gunboats, because there's almost no jump you can't do with gunboats that you can do with stock, compared to scorch shot and detonator.
dude gunboats dont decrease the height of a rocket jump..
I think the main problem with the scorch shot that makes it so much more annoying than the detonator is the fact that it requires so little investment to keep the whole enemy team on fire. You can shoot it every now and then and immediately change weapons and do other stuff (or at the very least be prepared to airblast a rocket away). With the detonator, the fact that you need to manually detonate means that you need to keep the detonator out and you probably need to keep looking at your target. Which means, you need to invest a lot more in order to keep spamming it
That is true. You really have to dedicate yourself with the detonator to use it properly.
One thing I really liked in your analysis is the emphasis on chip damage. It’s a factor many players overlook but as someone who has played a ton of medic, few things (that don’t lead to my death) frustrate me more than having my teammates get hit by a flare or even a shotgun pellet to reset crit healing. I never really got comfortable with the detonator but the potential to do more chip than the scorch shot is very alluring. Detonator is my least played flare gun but this video has inspired me to give it another try. Cheers
Great comment!
The reason i used scorch is because of my connection its so fucking laggy I can't time my detonation on the detonator i equally love both secondaries
Very well done video, I don't feel the need to watch everyone else's videos due to the way you presented this with the quotes etc.
Thank you very much! I'm glad it was informative!
I like to think that each flare secondary has its own respective place in Pyro gameplay. Flaregun is for combos, Detonation is a spam and movement and Scorch Shot is specifically for Dragon Fury, making someone's trajectory extremely predictably so direct hit is all but guaranteed and adding a lot of afterburn which Fury lacks
As a DFfan69 the Detonator is still superior because not only does it give you an easier time spamming into chokes it also lets you bomb into targets letting you get more kills easier. Even when killing scouts the sheer harassment of the detonator trumps the scorchshot bar none. The scorchshots real role is... easy gun. It is slightly less good way easier detonator which is odd because the detonator isn't that hard to begin with.
And the man melter?
@@doctorprepologedyedeyadede3542 Eh it is technically the highest damage engage but it doesn't have a lot of uses aside from free spam on low ammo chokes
@@doctorprepologedyedeyadede3542 I generally don't like it because of the little emptiness in my heart when there is no spamming pyros on the enemy team, but it still can be nice when map has mid to high sightlines, basically making you discount huntsman if you cannot approach your enemies directly due to some reason
The Scorch Shot Knockback Pyro VS The Chad Detonator Jumper Pyro
Perfect for landing on heads and getting those juicy taunt cancels 🍉
4:52 very nice
You can also destroy stickies with detonator and scorch explosions.
Vorobey tested out which he could get phlog meter full fastest with the scorch shot and detonator.
The results were that he got detonator charge first.
Use the detonator it’s basically the scorch shot but better if you can aim.
As someone with well over 4000 hours on pyro, the detonator can be extremely deadly when used in combos. It allows you to consistently hit targets that are in the air, like a scout with the highground or a rocket jumping soldier. Paired with the dragons fury, it is great for initiating an attack before you're within range with the df. Another overlooked aspect of the detonator is that it can also be used to escape an enemy pyro's airblast
I'm surprised nobody else brought that up! Usually, scout mains get overconfident and rush you as a pyro because they think they can outmaneuver your flares. But with the detonator, they stand almost no chance!
Finally someone sees the detonator as something more than just a mobility tool! The detonator has been my secondary of choice for a while. Being able to hit enemies behind walls is huge, and add that to the fact that you don't need to aim and you have a good weapon. Flare jumping is just an extra thing that makes it even better.
The “The detonator is a flanking weapon” idea isn’t not true, but it says the det. is only a flanking weapon but they always forget the point of the harassment potential of long range chip damage which the detonator is good at and also the fact that both the flare gun and detonator can be used as a finisher
Amazing video! this made me change my thoughts on the flare guns and pyro overall, although one thing i will miss from switching from scorch shot to detonator, is the rage you get from killing people with the scorch shot. keep up the good work! 👍
Good to hear! It’s funny how many people in the comments use the scorch shot because they WANT to get a reaction out of the other team
Genuine question: Why do people like when other people are mad at them? I've NEVER understood it.
@@SkeletonSSBM It’s not that they like how people are mad at them. It’s that they like how people get mad over something that’s just part of the game.
Honestly, compared to the scorch shot, the detonator feels more fun and rewarding, and opens up a more fun way to play pyro. Recently have started using detonator more often and it is really fun
I’m glad you’re enjoying it!
s t o c k f l a r e g u n *sad shotgun noises*
Your honor. Shotgun pyro. End of discussion. But nah. All seriousness.
Best 3 secondaries. 3:detonator 2:flare gun 1:shotgun
I respect that
As a Dragon's Fury Pyro main, the Detonator is extremely useful for me. The jumping is an obvious win, the airburst feature hits me more shots than the Scorch Shot and overall it's a great weapon that I've adapted to using. The airburst feature should not be underestimated, it's been an excellent tool for lighting enemies for the Dragon's Fury, harassing enemies at a distance and finishing wounded enemies. Overall I think it's the best for close range since you can detonate it really close to yourself. Can always hit a scout with this thing.
So youre a dragon fury main so do you have any tips for the random flash everytime i fire the gun?
for me the Scorch Shot is just used to get the mmph meeter faster
its very rare to kill someone with it alone
To each his own
I think people would be much more interested in the detonator if it automatically detonated upon hitting a surface, instead of sizzling (which feels like wasting a shot). If I could make a balance change to the scorch shot and detonator, I would:
1) make detonator flares never fizzle, but burst automatically when hitting a surface;
2) remove the "blast radius" from scorch shot flares, requiring the flare to hit directly to deal damage, thus making them occupy strictly separate niches
I like that
Oh my GOD l love the detonator, I've just been wanting to say that. I really want to get a better special version than just the killstreaked one I have too. It's absolutely a fun weapon to play around with.
On its own its not TOO great for damaging enemies - flare is better for up close combos, scorch is better for spamming single or multiple at a distance (its great for people you don't like!) but when you've you've a game where you don't need to worry about constantly putting a lot out with maximal assurance the detonator is amazing. Trained timing still allows you to keep people alight and you can get good damage over time with it, but once you've practiced jumping around with it you can really go nuts. Hopping into enemies faces, bouncing over someone to confuse them, bursting it on a group by deliberately avoiding a direct hit, airblast some enemies you don't like backwards and quickly bounce away with a shot, it's such a thrilling flare gun to use and can really bring you into your favorite ranges to engage people from. And it just lets all hell loose with the phlog, but that's its own discussion to have. It isn't perfect all of the time and is weakest in tight areas since it really just doesn't work as great even from practiced gameplay, but I absolutely have a fun time using it to hop at people and throw them off.
Honorable mention - the manmelter's good too. Not really worth using over other flare guns in most cases unfortunately, but I still use it on phlog sometimes (I'd probably use it with backburner too if I really cared to use that much, due to airblast cost, though it's also good to counter a scorch-happy asshole on the enemy team) and it can certainly do well. The increased shot speed isn't hard to adjust to and really helps shots land once you do, and while follow ups don't get a bonus that's still another 30 on top of resetting the burn time - most light classes will need healing by then. And nothing has quite the unique sort of accomplished feeling as blasting a crit shot into a sniper, and he dies a few seconds later because no heals.
I will never use detonator until they at least double the explosion range, or half the projectile speed. Timing the explosions on the thing is absolutely miserable. It feels like the damn thing explodes with half-a-second delay after i press the button. I couldn't hit anyone with the explosion if my life depended on it - far more often i either explode it 5 meters before the enemy, or it hits the floor and disappears. I have no idea where projectile is, i have no depth perception to speak of and attempting to practice it to get a "feeling" of it went absolutely nowhere.
For me using Detonator is about as effective as using the Gas passer - i basically have no secondary.
Personally what I love about the detonator is it makes me feel like a soldier being able to handle almost any situation scouts can no longer dodge flares due to detonation being manual
Large groups from a distance can be lit by doing a manual detonation from above
Snipers can't dodge the detonation
Demos can't spam stickies due to det jumps existing
Medics can die with a good detonator jump straight into the centre of their group
Soldiers and other classes can no longer hide around a corner with the manual detonation
It may do mini crits but still does good damage
Hard to miss an shots with its detonation
Invisible spies can be spy found easily with manual detonation
All in all it viable in practicality any situation heck I'd even say the flare gun has less versatility than the detonator
It's mobility may not be much compared to other forms of blast jumps but it's still enough to climb most areas where a demo or soldier could go but not a oyro leading to funny kills where a enemy panicks as there's a pyro in a area where they shouldn't be
It's also useful for getting out of situations and rolling out of spawn if you have a medic who respawned aswell sometimes even being able to out run a medic now there may be quite a good bit of bias as I do use the detonator in most of my gameplay as pyro so if anyone else wants to give there take on the detonator then feel free to reply
Wonderful input
this basically solidifed my opinion that the scorch shot is a crutch ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i thought this was common knowledge, to call it a "situational jumpy weapon" couldn't be more of an understatement, goes to show you really can't trust everything you hear online, ever if it's from people you like.
Well put.
I mostly agree with what you said and already use the detonator in the ways you explained. Im still not sure which one is better though, I feel like whenever your in the right opportunities to use the scorch shot (no places to det jump, high ground, choke points, etc) it is really fucking good. I guess it just comes down to a situation type thing
How is the detonator not the most hated flare gun? It has more utility and damage on a direct hit than the scorch shot.
It's one of the more difficult weapons to be consistent with. But once you are, it's a direct upgrade.
I’ll definitely take your point, I think it would be really fun to start flare jumping around and flanking other classes, but it will take some time and precision to nail that explosion. Anyway good video!
Thank you! I promise you it won’t take too much time to learn
3:00 - Hit the ground.
3:21 - The pillar itself, the ceiling.
3:34 - That's math brother, I can't do that. Also, that's kinda a very rare situation.
I know the scenarios aren’t perfect. They’re supposed to show you that there are situations where you can’t hit enemies with the scorch shot, only the detonator. They also show that t’s easier to hit enemies with the detonator than the scorch shot
@@LEDs I disgree as these are pretty close quarters, which Scorch Shot would fullfill by itself.
My personal problem also is, that you need quite the skill for it to make long range hits (aka. getting a feel for how far it has to travel and how fast it reaches that point).
Or else you try to guess if it hits by staring after it, which isn't very good since you are easy pickings that way.
(What I have in head is Badwater, where there are a lot of long ranges)
Detonator with phlog is way better than scorch shot. The speed it can give you lets you catch up to enemies that are escaping. It also lets you escape way easier in comparison to the scorch shot.
However, scorch shot is better than the detonator when it comes to weapons like the dragons fury. Detonator overall is better for the reasons you mentioned in this video.
Thanks for the comment! There aren't many better feelings than seeing an enemy trying to run away from you after you've activated your mmmph, and you detonator jump to catch up and finish him off.
But many people use the Scorch shot because it takes a lot less brainpower
I usually stick to the stock flare gun. Spamming flares from a distance might be effective but I just find it kinda boring.
That’s fair.
The detonator is the best pyro secondary because you can jump scare f2p heavies and get a priceless reaction.
Also for taunt cancelling with the phlog 🔥
Overall, mobility is great, consistent damage is also really good, but there is always one thing missing from the discussion.
My problem with the clips you used are that you mainly used it in one loadout (phlog of all things too), when you could try talking and showing how this is the best flare gun for synergies:
- Best flaregun for Axtinguisher, always inflicts full afterburn and you can easily close the distance with a jump
- Flare jumps are a better alternative to thruster, working well with flanking focused flamethrowers
- You can use power jack to do even longer jumps
- Rake is great at offsetting the self dmg after jumps
- Dragons fury is just beastly with eny target being already on fire before you close in
...and the list could be still probably longer.
Oh yea the detonator is the strongest secondary in a huge range of loadouts, maps, and game types. I am very happy this is being acknowledged more and more but even this video is pulling punches with how strong it is.
- Extinguisher is not viable
- Flare jumps are not better alternative to jetpack
@@spiderjerusalem8505
- You can still easily oneshot light classes, and just escape away much easier, and detonator always gives full after burn making it a great combo even without the jump... and also, man, its just really fun.
- Flare jump are worse for mobility yes, but you still have a very good weapon to defend yourself/help teamates. Backpack forces you to keep jumping onto ppl to do anything, since flamethrower is your only weapon now. Try doing anything on a tightly defended point with like 2-3 sentries.
@@OsaPL1, sentries are the biggest weakness, that's true, but you would be surprised how effective jetpack can be, provided you're God of movement and wm1 ;)
@@OsaPL1Yeah true which is why jetpack is probably best used for flanking or coming from an angle where it's hard to spot you or randomly getting on some ledge high up.
I saw a Pyro effectively use it in Highlander and I wanted to emulate that play style. It's now my favorite flare gun!
It’s my favorite too!
@@LEDs ruclips.net/video/30zNySSySbc/видео.html this highlander comp is the vid
Honestly, the Scorch Shot is pretty much just a worse Detonator when it comes to the explosion and jumping mechanic. I really don't get why Fish even thinks that the Scorch Shot is even broken, when you may as well just use the Detonator, since the Detonator is far more superior than the Scorch Shot.
The scorch shot is only better for direct impacts, which only really works against heavies and snipers. Faster classes can usually get around it.
Fish has this problem where he mistakes annoying weapons for overpowered ones. This isn't exclusive to him but he does it A LOT.
As a pyro main, I deeply despise people who get their opinions directly from youtubers. Thank you for citing credible sources on the analysis.
I don’t know if this is sarcastic considering I got my comparison data from Vorobey, but most of my arguments are from personal experience or simple facts about the weapon that RUclipsrs in the consensus never considered.
@@LEDs you obtained quantifiable data from a reputable source, and then compared that data with your own experience for verification, as opposed to zesty or fish fans who take their boys unquantifiable opinions at their word and just parrot hot takes into the ground. No sarcasm here, friend.
@@Caseyuptobat I see now, thank you! I look forward to seeing more comments from you.
i used it because its an unlock and unlocks are good right
*equips old scotsman skullcutter on default demo*
It's just that Scorch Shot doesn't need timing, it is a fire and forget weapon, and i argue it is more useful vs snipers as with the detonator you need to be in the line of sight to time your flares and snipers may stand near solid surfaces that allow the scorch shot's flare to hit him with aoe damage. The knockback is very useful against telegraphed attacks like people ready to launch ubers on a sentry nest. I have found heavies, demos, snipers and spies to hate the scorch shot more, not because of its damage being lower than the detonator, but because it provides too many benefits for too little focus to use. Displacement, destroyed stickies, hitting you from afar without exposing themselves at all, and occasionally knocking back spies out of a backstab are all useful. The detonator is a more aggresive weapon, it deals more consistent damage with timing and gives you mobility. It is extremely useful when combo-ed with the phlogistinator as it gives enemies no real way of reacting to you. When i play offensive/flank pyro i use the detonator and when i play defensively i use the scorch shot.
Very thoughtful comment with solid points brought up. I concur that the scorch shot is highly effective as a defensive weapon because of the knock back. You’re also correct about the flare double hitting enemy snipers, but I have to bring up that many times when a sniper is moving around on a high ledge somewhere, the only way to hit them is with a direct hit, leading to more misses with the scorch shot and giving the sniper a chance to kill you in the process. It’s a greater risk
having to detonate manually is the exact reason I prefer scorch shot. I can't even count how many times I am forced not to detonate because I need to reflect projectiles with my degreaser
@@LEDs i get your point. But the real question is: why bother with snipers? You have other more valuable and easier to hit targets, i just ignore snipers and leave it to my snipers spies or soldiers to just flank them. You are more suited to just dealing with combat classes like soldiers and ESPECIALLY demos who will become flabbergasted when you jump in their face with the detonator (usually they outspam you at mid range, this way you just go right in their face ), as well as denying ubers with the airblast. Knowing your role can also heavily impact your weapon choices.
@@andybogdan4380 In one of my gameplay clips when I was in Mossrock, there was a sniper standing in such a position where I had to shoot him, otherwise he probably would’ve headshot me. It’s not something I do because I “want” to disrupt/kill snipers. It’s more of a necessity, and it allows my team to more easily kill the snipers because the afterburner makes it virtually impossible for them to headshot you.
Also, if you’re especially skilled with timing your detonations, you don’t need to watch your flare travel toward the enemy; you can jiggle-peak like how soldiers do when attacking engineer nests, and detonate the flare from behind cover.
It’s not something for everybody, and I understand that many people will opt for easier choices.
@@LEDs fair point.
With almost 400 hours on Pyro, yes, I agree. The Detonator is the best way to do any meaningful damage past the range of the general damage rampup, although my primary reason to use it is accessing flank routes. I trust my basic Flare Gun aim enough to do damage past the effective range, and I use the shotgun of choice in a more deathmatch-oriented scenario against actually competent players who aren't hampered much by visual particles and airblast disorientation so the direct, instant, and reliable damage is actually needed.
The Scorch Shot is just very overrewarding and forgiving to use and it's still better against the cluster of enemies since you're very likely to score a direct hit against someone and the flare explosion will cover someone else as well very likely. The pseudo-stun is also quite valuable for preventing escape and evasion for a powerful melee follow-up. The two flare guns in the subject are actually the only way to make the Axtinguisher viable outside of very specific conditions.
I've been using the detonator for years, especially on the hightower server I always play on I showed people how strong it is
At first everyone disagreed and just shrugged it off but the more they died to it the more aware they became
It became so annoying that someone gifted me a strange detonator with the description ''hate me''
My only gripe with the detonator is that while I enjoy the weapon, it only makes me wish there was a flare gun focused around flare jumping with slightly better damage.
I don't gt what you mean.
People way overcomplicate everything, as usual. Any damage is greater than no damage, and the Detonator simply has by far the biggest, most versatile hitbox of the three flare guns. Also, it's just plain fun, especially in the movement department.
Used to be my least used weapon to become my most favorite weapon because it's so fun. Especially satisfying when you accurately detonate the flare getting kills after firing and looking else where, killing someone else.
Love it, it felt like an Academic Essay’s structured video. 💙
honestly as a noob myself, detonator doesnt seem to be hard with timed explosions, i agree it takes practice but also its rather easy to learn at the end
making anyone with working depth perception and base level of timing a foe you should be aware of
great vide btw, loved the info mixed with juicy hits in background
top notch
(also slightly lower quality mic with old vinyl music is great mix too, add charm to it :D)
Thank you! I got a new microphone after making this video, this quality wasn't intentional, lol, but I'm glad you liked it
@@LEDs your welcome mate!
looking foward to newer videos :3
(also the "older quality" could be a nice theme for videos but youre the director here and i hope ya get up high in ranks)
The Detonator is in the same level as with the Liberty launcher. People only think because of "raw damage" and that because they see something written in red and that it makes less damage, its automaticly bad - the datonator is a good sample as you said and i agree. Yes, the detonator does make less direct-hit damage, it only barely makes mini crit damage which is the same of a stock flare gun if you hit your target a second time BUT: overall, the detonator seems be best used around corners OR if you wanna do a hell load of damage OVER TIME. And that was always pyros thing anyway - why else do you think did they remoed the res shooter airblast combo from the pyro? Not only was it "unfair" but it basically changed pyros purpose overall.
I like the detonator but as for how weak it at least "feels", they should give it still more "direct hit" damage. Sure not stock level but like the old detonator which made 30 on direct hit and 45 minicrit, if i remember that right. I still love that weapon overall.
I don't think its a similar situation to the LL. The LL is not meta in HL. The detonator is. People call the LL underrated because it is a weapon worse than stock but not as much worse as people think. Calling the det underrated is like calling the stock rocket launcher underrated and is just as absurd.
Post JI the det is by far the strongest secondary for pyro outside of the SS across a variety of skill levels, maps, and game types. There are some occasional exceptions where the shotguns and regular flair shine but they are rare. It also as this video points out not a crazy high skill floor weapon.
It does not need buffed the shotguns and regular flair need buffed.
I think that the anoying thing of scorch shot isn't the blast, is the stunlock with the bouncing flare, because the stunlock gets out the bouncing flares weakness, the enemy has to stad still, so i think that's why everyone jumped on the scorshot and only focused the spam
I agree
As someone who always uses the detonator heres my take on it
What i often hear is that it only does mini crits and i cant understand why thats a negative of the detonator because yeah its not hour 90 damage crit it still does 60 damage and thats half of a light classes health its still good damage
Another thing i like about it is i think its much better paired with the degreaser for its quick switch speed allowing easier jump flanks
Along with being paired with the detonator you can use to get more afterburn damage to help finish off enemies or just make em take more damage along with the extra 60 damage making it much harder for them to escape especially since you dont need percise aim if there running away
3rd it makes killing scouts easier aswell due to them not being able to dodge the detonation
4th like LED said in hia video the ability to shoot behind walls is something not to be taking lightly it is especially good when u know a enemy is waiting for you behind a wall or corner
5th there is a ability that people seem to always forget and that is the detonators explosion being able to destroy stickies meaning you dont need to waste airblast on stickies and is much more efficient
I think the general consensus is that the detonator is the flare byt jumpy and i think thays the wrong mindset the detonator should be treated more like soldiers rocket launcher a all round generalist weapon being able to have mobility,utility,offense and supportive roles rather than just being another rocket jumper
Good thoughts, thanks for the comment 😃
Good video, very informative and refreshing opinion comparted to the army of same "scorch shot OP" videos.
To be honest, I think I use the detonator a lot more for combat than mobility.
I've adopted the detonator into my 2fort strategy i have. It's called "Bake and Rake"
I ignite them with the detonator (which is much easier than with the flare gun cuz i can detonate it near them and have it still hit), hit them once with the rake, and swap back to the detonator to hit them again.
The detonator is such a fun weapon for it, as well as just in general play.
LOL!
I lately started to main pyro and fell in love with this thing
I was playing on 2fort and I was killed by sniper in enemy sewers because I couldn't do crap about him, got killed and taunted. I wanted to use scorch shot, I ended up picking scorch shot and ended up dying the same way, this time shittalked, then I decided to try detonator... and ended up dominating this guy. I instandly bought a strange one and now I use it all the god damn time. And all the points you made in the video perfectly sums up why I love that thing and why it's so fun for me to use. Great video! I'll link it in my steam profile because it's pure facts!
This is precicely how I use the detonator. I always have. I think you should consider this however, the detonator timing is actually quite difficult. For people with incredibly good spatial awareness, the timing is really easy, but for a lot of people, it's difficult to pull off.
I use it as a chip damage tool, a flanking tool, a closing tool, and an escape tool. It's still very much a tool, it's just an amazing tool that allows me to extend the range of my play and the versatility of my damage output.
I run it with the stock Flamethrower and the Axtinguisher. The mobility the Detonator grants me allows me to ignore the Powerjack and use the far more exciting and interesting golden axe. ;)
I first started using it because the sound design was fantastic. :P
Fantastic and informative reply! I also first started using it because I thought the sound was cool (similar to how we all tried using the sharpened volcano fragment when we first unlocked it because it looked cool). Turns out it was actually pretty freaking good!
@@LEDs Poor, poor SVF. I wish it were good lmao. Thanks for the reply! :)
I personally find the detonator the most practical flare gun of them all and this video sums up the reasons nicely.
💙💚❤️
as someone who uses the shotguns, i see this as an absolute win
I agree with everything u said and I use the detonator a lot and when i switched to the scorch shot or flare gun i missed almost all my shots at first. Also before when i heard yters talking about how it isnt good at offense is because unlike the flare gun it isnt burst which got me killed a few times
As a Detonator user I agree with everything you said, and what you show in the video is exactly how I use it. Just shoot, calculate the detonation time and profit. It's extremely easy to hit 90% of the shots once you get the hang of it. And yes, it doesn't kill often, but it does affect the enemies greatly - most of them try to run away, some are just midly annoyed, but can't do much against the spam, so they usually are getting surpressed or eventually just back off. And the fact that you can detonate your shots wherever and whenever is huge - it plays into offense and into defense and you can chase enemies more effectively. This is by far my favorite secondary for Pyro.
Oh yeah, and it's perfect for building Phlog, thanks to the hit ratio. I don't use it personally, but now I think I should check it out...
I like how you said "they usually are getting suppressed," that's a great way of putting it.
Pyro, according to Robin Walker, in the TF1 readme, was always meant to weaken enemies, so even if they die, the afterburn keeps hurting.
The issue as I see it is that the Detonator's mobility options encourage agressive roamer gameplay while its offensive capabilities are best suited to clustered group fights. People that use it for the mobility such as myself don't often find themselves in situations where it can deal tons of damage. Basically its two functions are at odds with each other such that people can only make the most of one or the other.