[TF2] The Scorch Shot - Reignited
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- Опубликовано: 22 ноя 2023
- Time to go scorched earth on the Scorch Shot
Rebalance Servers: www.badweaponrehab.tf/
Twitter: / fsoas_
Patreon: / fishstickonastick
Main Channel: / @fishstickonastick
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Music used:
Silent Hill 3 OST
That Sisyphus meme song
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![[TF2] The Scorch Shot Is EVIL](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hUAZAtwq08Q/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Scorch Shot Is EVIL](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] Just What Exactly Is Wrong With Spy? - A Balance Discussion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/u7t_hEUigbY/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Spy's Best Revolver](/img/1.gif)
It frankly concerns me how much the message of "Please try not to be an asshole to random people you don't even know if you can help it" is met with so much pushback and so many "ERM ACHKSHUALLY"'s. I'm really not asking for a lot here.
Also I know I main Sniper and he's not fun to fight. I've never disputed this once and that's why all of my suggestions and implementations for Sniper in my own videos and balance server have been nerfs in service of making him more fun to fight. I also know I'm not nearly good enough at the class to ruin an entire server just by playing it. There's a massive difference between something being not fun, and going out of your way to ruin everyone else's fun, otherwise Spy in general would be off the table, and god knows he's not overpowered. I thought I made that distinction clear when I said it's cool to use the Scorch Shot as long as you're not being an asshole about it, but that was obviously not the case. Just don't be a dick. It's not that hard.
How do you keep your sanity intact?
Question is where is the line drawn between something being very effective and something being “mean”? Anything can get annoying in pvp if it’s even remotely effective from trollger to demoknight, but something being “mean” is almost always subjective.
And yeah, complaining about something able to disrupt another player’s gameplay from a long distance is pretty funny coming from a sniper main. Even if you acknowledge his issues, you still make the choice to play him, valuing your own fun over other players’. To a certain extent, to play the game better than your opponents will ALWAYS create this dynamic.
TLDR: “it’s not fun” is a pretty bad argument whose logical extension is 100% friendly servers.
@@soren1803 It is as simple as don't be an asshole on purpose. That's it. That's all I'm asking for.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming griefing is bad, yes. Can never know another’s intentions unless they state them though.
The problem is losing is hardly ever a fun experience. It's not fun to have a lack of control, not just in video games, but just in general. When you're in a losing position, you lack control, otherwise you would be winning. Are some more annoying than others? Yeah, but I feel like this is not that big of a deal. The scorch shot has plenty of counterplay. If the opponent is using the scorch shot, just counter it, you don't even need to switch classes or weapons if you don't want to. If I'm playing heavy, what I'm going to do is say in chat "hey Pyro, would you mind helping me deal with the scorch shot pyro" in the same way I'd say "hey demo, could you help me with this sentry" or "hey scout, could you take out that sniper so I can pass by". Heck, the scorch shot is even simpler to deal with that the other two example, not only are they getting health back from extinguishing and even Critz with the manmelter, but they get a heavy to defend them from the other power classes. And if your argument is "that's not always an option" or "I shouldn't have to ask a teammate to help me", then stop speaking. The game is called TEAM fortress 2, not every class is good in every situation, and yes, in a game that's this diverse, some shit isn't gonna be fun for some classes, get over it. I use the scorch shot becuae being able to counter shit that annoys me as Pyro makes me have fun. They don't care if I'm having fun, so why should I care either? Not only that, if people are purposely being annoying, first off, that's not your call to make. Second off, OK? You're playing a popular online game, not everyone is going to be sunshine and rainbows. I've met plenty of assholes being a jerk with non broken weapons, it's not the weapon, it's the person. No no, but since you don't like the weapon, you justify making a video telling your audience that it's good to bully people who use the weapon you don't like because it's annoying. There's this cool green stuff in a lot of tf2 maps, it's called "grass" and it's all over outside. Maybe go touch some.
Don't let Fish's hate for the Scorch Shot distract you from the fact that Zuko the lizard has found a job as his secretary. I'm so proud of him.
I hope the employee benefits are substantial
Woah, MvM in real life???
bots are spamming you but ZUKO GETTING A JOB IS A W
@@Squircul Ain't anything new as a TF2 player tbh.
@@bialex8083Helk is UTTP. supposed to be anyways
Remember the schorch shot is only as evil as the person who uses it
who just happens to be pyro
Stock flamethrower and dragon fury - yeah the enemy is going to have a bad time, but they are least helping the team by pushing Uber and putting out burning team mates.
Pholg-pure selfishness and will hog the medic more then a solider and heavy.
@@starmaker75
It gets worse if the Phlog Main knows how to Phlog Cancel
What if the Phlog's Mmmph meter gave 50HP on activation that can overheal(self healing without being as OP as the earlier version)? what if the Phlog had a alt fire that does the Short Circuit delete ball that costs 65 ammo? would that make it less selfish of a weapon?
for the Scorch shot, removing the stun on the bounce or even making the bounce that can stun the alt fire, would make the item much more fair, yes?
Sharpened Volcano Fragment, maybe give it an alt fire that does a Dragon's fury fireball shot? and hitting burning enemies with the melee gives you 20 health or some such?
@@davidhong1934anyone that can phlox cancel well probably uses the detonator since the scorch shot is very hard to land on someone’s head with while being switched to the phlog before falling off of the enemy before you can hit the taunt
well
depends on the player too
now then again, lore pyro is not evil
he just a confused boi
like, pyrovision is really fucky, he does not know wtf hes doing
now, the phlog-scorch players, they have given pyro mains a terrible name, such as anger snipers have done with sniper mains, and scunts with scouts, and medic gfs with meds
Evil idea: Hop on with one person in a game, one of you goes scorch shot and the other goes spy, and target the living jarate out of snipers, since they can't equip both the danger shield and razor back at the same time.
AND spy has a gun (shock horror to spy mains) so they're just fucked lmao
I did this once against a sniper, and they got very upset
Based
this isnt evil, this is a very good cause and I approve.
just dont use it against players that arent snipers please
That's why we call "team work and strategy."
Fishstick: hates the scorch shot.
Zesty Jesus: hates the short circuit.
Soundsmith: hates the dead ringer.
Uncle Dane: hates random crits.
Of all of them the short circuit is the dumbest to hate , i mean yeah you have the rigth to be biased againts a weapon ESPECIALLY one like the short circuit , but then trying to justify it as an objective fact and try to prove that you are rigth is kinda of dumb , even most of people in the coment section of that video disagreed with it , the SC Is only OP on payload offense
3 of them are just dumb brainless spammy mechanics
It's funny that Zesty is just raging at weapon that is designed to prevent rocket spamming.
@@payoxd2979Makes sense because Zesty is the dumbest out of all of them
@@SigilOfBaphomet Way to jump the gun buddy
Scorch shot is a drug, like yeah doing it here and there, or even in specific conditions isn't a """problem""". But you can't argue there aren't addicts who are chasing it with copium on every hit.
Where's my scorch shot Kyle??? I need my shot man GIMMIE IT
It's me I'm the guy who can't hit his fuckin shots so I use it as a crutch. At least I suck too much for it to bother people.
"I can quit using it anytime I want..."
@@dvircohen2465 Your addiction is tearing this family apart and I refuse to stand idly by anymore!
I haven’t played a TF2 game where the Pyro on the enemy team wasn’t using the scorch shot. It’s just pyro players lol. It’s the same as Spy using the Kunai deadringer, they just can’t help themselves
That “one guy had to ruin the fun for all of you” is the same justification I make for running jarate bushwacka when there’s a kunai spy on the enemy team.
Point being, after a while, these people have it coming to them.
I hate the razorback from a design perspective, but as long as the kunai exists it justifies its existence.
@@nonesuch6833
tf2 players when they find class counters exist
@@HeDronHeDronHedronEquipping a single item should not be a class counter
@@HeDronHeDronHedron I like shutting down a class’ main damage source too. I think someone even talked about an item like that in a video I just watched
ok I'm going to say it here cause I won't have anywhere else to, the way I use the jarate bushwaka combo is instead like a offensive class and it's hilarious when it works. forget the sniper rival when you have piss and a knife even if you do die a lot. it's fun without me feeling bad at all unlike sitting at the side and killing a scout who wanted to flank me and who should of gotten that kill but I just piss on him and one hit him, at least they know it's coming and can kill me while I run to them.
I love how you can replace "using the scorchshot" with "playing the sniper class" in the point at 8:50 and it fits perfectly well. "Why should I care if my enemies are having any fun? I like playing sniper."
Except that sniper has counters
@@vyor8837 Darwin's Danger Shield: Yeah definitely :)
@@pancakeperson8905 direct hit says hi.
@@vyor8837Damage falloff.
@OFFICERJIMMYUTTPQueer?
Clearly, the solution is to turn the Scorch Shot into the Loose Cannon, with a fuse and a double donk mechanism. And also the ability to instantly gib light classes.
No.... This is a secondary weapon....
@@MoterX imo make it a primary weapon
now, scorch shot users can achieve their final form of dual wielding flare guns. one pops you up, the other deletes your face
@@MoterX congratulations, you get the joke.
That sounds like a totally reasonable change, i'd also add +100% firing speed and +30% projectile speed
@@TheOneWhoHasABadName ayo that sounds fun? pyro could use some diversity in his primaries, big flare could be it.
Surely you must understand the irony of a sniper main saying, "You SHOULD care if your enemies are having fun."
"This projectile Scorch Shot sets enemies on fire and makes them run for Health Packs, which is no fun, especially for Heavy!" 👎
"This hit-scan Sniper Rifle can kill all classes, especially Heavy, from the other side of the map. It's fair though, because Sniper takes skill.""👍
@@Moj1989I mean kinda? You gotta actually hit headshots to use it right. The problem with Sniper isn’t the instant kill, we have lots of those in Tf2. It’s the lack of interaction.
Demo sticky traps aren’t complained about because you can avoid them if you get enough info, or just shoot the drunk cyclops.
Accidentally walking into a sentry and getting evaporated is on you for not hearing or seeing it. Sentries are real easy to kill if they are on their own. They have terrible range and can be exploited with cover.
No one complains about Heavy absolutely crushing at close range to the point that he’s treated like a sentry.
Sniper has none of this without map specific tweaks. If the Sniper has a sightline; he can kill any class outright and the only recourse is to counter snipe or straight up abandon that part of the map. Nothing else gets that much area denial with that little feedback, that little warning. Even at close ranges the Huntsman doesn’t give a fuck about hitboxes . Jarates a fuck’d mechanic too and practically free. Bushwacka danger shield bazaar bargain. You get it. Sniper gets a lot for free and not much can be done about him from the player vs player side of this team based defence fort sequel. You gotta hope he fuckin misses or not engage him at all.
Thats not the instant kills fault, thats the lack of interactions fault. Sniper can still hold the role of long range assassin if that actually came with risk. Tracers on every rifle, low ammo count and flinching should force unscope. Keep the rest the same and he fits much better.
Remove huntsman headshots and make it fit and pull way faster. Boom, projectile weapon that does great damage. Make Jarate swap to speed slow. Bushwacka no crit interaction, give it 25% more damage and lowered healing from sources. Dangershield should give explosive res instead of fire and decrease knockback.
@@TheMuffinman191 you can move unpredictably and crouch to throw him off, assuming you actually notice him.
@@hdmonster3327thats assuming TF2 hitreg doesnt just give the sniper the headshot anyways because of how janky headshots can be,
@@Moj1989My dude if you are even semi decent at landing head shots in an FPS in TF2 it's a triviality given the size of some classes heads
You know a weapon is badly designed when the main counter for it, is another badly designed weapon.
lmao y’all so lame @OFFICERJIMMYUTTP
Wait they're not botted. That made them even lamer
@OFFICERJIMMYUTTPgrown ass man btw
The Rocket Launcher is badly designed because the Short Circuit deletes rockets :]
@@Atlas-nf2gw Touché
I feel like calling you out for being a sniper main is less about bias, and more about a perceived hypocrisy. Being able to immediately invalidate any class from anywhere on the map with a click on the head is far more impactful and reliably frustrating than getting put in hitstun for a second.
And while yes, headshots take more skill, that doesn’t make them any less frustrating for the person on the receiving end.
difference is, one took time to practice and learn how to aim well enough to hit the headshot (sniper is still broken tho), the other just spammed funny flare until it hit you
This isn't even really true, at least Pyro can't kill from infinite range lmao. Flamethrower is very very easy to outrange. But Sniper literally can't be.@@GordsZarack
Yes, sniper is bullshit sometimes, doesn't mean the scorch shot can't also be bullshit
@@yeafu1924his point is snipers are built on bullshit, so trying to argue that something else is bullshit is like worshipping a pile of shit, and then insulting India for shitting in the street, both are bad, but you clearly aren't concerned about one
@kurtsurreal I can assure you that with less than 2 hours of time on sniper (none of which dedicated), it is not THAT hard to hit headshots consistently. What does take practice is getting to the level of annoying that we all have come to know and hate.
Also, no defense on scorch shot, it’s terribly annoying still.
Honestly, I don't feel as annoyed by the Scorch Shot as I am by Sniper.
"Get hit by one flare and you have to get healed or you die" just isn't as annoying as "Get headshot and die"
And one secondary for one class isn't as common as all of the primaries for another
fair
while true, consider that "shooting someone for big/lethal damage from across the map" is the one and **only** thing Sniper is good at, while the Pyro can still do plenty up on the front lines with his flamethrower
@@SuperHamsterhuey That's arguable. There's nothing stopping a sniper from headshotting someone at close range, or Jarate Bushwhacking you
@@SuperHamsterhueyif i am playing medic a pyro needs to outplay me to kill me while putting himself in danger
A sniper only needs one body shot from across the map to do the same.
Yeah a pyro can do a lot of things up close, but that goes for all classes
Yeah...
I'd still remove the sniper before I removed the scorch shot
9:35 you did not notice it, but you whole speech is a very good point against sniper existing.
I still hold that in skilled hands the Detonator is just a better option for the similar spamability and much better mobility. The main issue is the Scorch Shot can simply get more done for less effort put in. Like yeah, Dragon's Fury and Axtinguisher combos are easier with the Scorch Shot, but anything's easier and less impressive when the enemy is incapable of moving.
If Detonator was more widely used people would be complaining about it too.
yeah, i try swapping out the detonator for the scorch shot when pairing for the dragon's fury, and it STILL doesn't seem better. the detonator is way more consistent against double jumping scouts and bombing soldiers, and can deal a lot more chip damage in situations where hitting a direct flare with the scorch shot or its rather tiny ground splash isn't as reliable. that and the mobility which makes the pyro deceptively good at chasing enemies
it mainly seems sorta oppressive in gamemodes that force teams to cluster together, like payload or A/D, but if your team has a competent pyro they can just reflect the scorch shot after it bounces off their teammate to neuter the AoE and immediately cure the afterburn
sorry, but i want to switch right back to my flamethrower the moment the flare comes out, and the detonator can't work with that. I want to be ready to airblast during most encounters, and I cant afford to have my dick in my hands when im being shot at. plus, I dont like losing so much health when I use the mobility. Maybe I wouldn't mind that if pyro had a melee that healed like 75 hp on kill.
you are literally so fucking stupid @OFFICERJIMMYUTTP lmao
(also, you’re giving Fishstick traction on his video, leading to more views, dumbass)
Nah bro its not the main issue
“why should I care if my enemies are having fun?”
My guy, i know you touched on it, but you are a sniper main, the paragon of making you enemy have zero fun, with the spy right behind
There's a big difference between something being not fun to fight, and actively ruining the fun for everyone else. A Spy is in basically no circumstances fun to die to, a Kunai Dead Ringer Spy wiping out your entire team is ruining everyone's fun. A Sniper on Badwater isn't fun to die to, a Sniper on Badwater hiding up in that little rock crack above the health kit that makes him basically invisible is ruining everyone's fun.
@@fishstickonastick-gaming fair
@@fishstickonastick-gamingso ...sniper? Literally any sniper, not even a specific loadout ?
So a sniper killing you from a massive sight line that is only counterable by a vaccinator medic or another sniper is fun but bouncing someone with a scorch shot isn't? Mercs having very powerful secondaries is not unique to scorch shot pyros.
A sniper is never fun to die to, that's the point. You seem to think that the skill level of a Kunai Dead Ringer spy is the same as the skill needed for a sniper to head shot people across the map? Like getting a head shot isn't easy, but it's not hard either it just takes a moderate amount of practice. And that results in a *class* that shuts down all the fun for everybody else. But you screech about the scorch shot like it's the most annoying ass weapon to face in the hole game. While having the most soft ass nuance take ever on sniper, going so far as to make a video where you try to equivalate the huntsman with the *instant-kill across the map* rifles.
"The scorch shot directly counters sniper, so sniper isnt op!"
"The scorch shot is hard countered by the sniper pressing a single button"
I sense some cognitive dissonance here...
And we cannot forget that the sniper can just completely disable the pyro's ability to harass him with the scorch shot using the darwin's danger shield.
Two things can be OP at the same time.
I've gotta say snipers fun to play but I also use him specifically to snipe snipers because I can't hit the other classes because I'm bad
I also find it a bit silly that one of the points he makes is how OP the scorch shot is against a Heavy and how much it counters him and makes him unfun to play, when.. Heavies are infamously the most countered class by Sniper alongside maybe Medic
sure, being set on fire and knocked back repeatedly when you're slow and such an easy target to hit is bad, but just literally dying instantly because you're slow and easy to hit and thus being 'knocked back' to your literal spawn is a lot worse, especially when a scorch shot pyro harassing a heavy from afar is being pretty useless for their team and wasting a ton of their own time, unlike a sniper who can just kill a heavy in seconds and keep doing what their class is designed for
scorch shot is kinda dumb, but imo not even one of the top 5 most unbalanced things in this game and it's more annoying and a crutch than anything else
I'd even argue that a good flare gun or detonator player is far more of a threat than a scorch shot player
I never even run scorch shot because I don't find it fun to play with and I do still think it's cheap and annoying, but it's also probably the most stupidly overhated thing in this game alongside mini sentries imo
@@lilliefluff as a Medic main, thank you
At 7:55 you can also do that with the detonator. It's not just a Sconch thing. I feel like that's more of a Phlog moment than anything.
Except the detonator isn't as deadly, requires you to time the explosion, and deals more damage to you(albeit with more mobility)
Honestly I think that those requirements and the extra self-damage help balance out the extra mobility you get from the detonator. Makes it feel like it kinda has the same kind of skill requirements that sticky jumping or rocket jumping have.@@dumbvillage9253
It's well known that in terms of racklng up fire damage, the Scorch does it the easiest. On a direct hit, there's a decent chance for the bounce to connect, resulting in two hits for the price of one.
definitely more of a phlog moment, but the scorch shot also makes you take less DMG than the detonator and doesn't require the extra right click.
I honestly prefer more skillful mobility that'll catch unsuspecting players off guard than trying to rack up a bunch of fire damage on a group of enemies. Plus the detonator does open up a lot more paths for the pyro to go through that classes like demoman, scout, or soldier would probably only be able to make use of (I like going up to a higher area with the detonator and catching an unsuspecting player on the opposite team that is hiding up there off guard).
I know it has nothing to do with the video's theme, but there's something downright hilarious about 2:26. Fish is talking about how Sniper isn't overpowered and talking about cognitive dissonaces RIGHT BEFORE he gets insta-killed by a sniper quickscope, basically at the range where he, as a Pyro, would probably wreck him. But yeah, Sniper is perfectly balanced and you just gotta get close to him.
Life is sometimes way too funny.
Quick scopes are hard to pull off
The main difference here is that pulling off a quickscope like that, especially consistently, takes a LOT of skill and practice, definitely more than I have. Whereas something like a pyro can heavily harass nearly anyone at nearly any range for minimal investment.
@@hainekhorin3925 Oh yeha, the Scorch Shot being able to effortlessly harass a sniper at long distance is bullshit. I ain't deniyng it, I totally agree.
Just thought the timing was way too funny not to talk about.
@@masonkay7024 If you ask me, the fact that they can even be pulled off is bullshit already...Those insta death shots should be reserved for distance kills, and Sniper should be basically defenseless if you manage to corner and flank him.
@@battles_varied_animator he is as defenseless as most demo at close range as this guy mentioned in a different video no class should be harmless at any point
2:24 Pyro has no counterplay? He's a primarily close ranged class that deals DOT. There's plenty of counterplay, such as turning and running to put distance between the two of you, then turning back around and shooting him. Or just shoot him and find the nearest source of healing/body of water. There are even strategies that shotgun-less soldiers and demomen can use against Pyro. There is PLENTY of counterplay. Much more than Sniper, who's counterplay consists of "don't get hit"
I think fish is (poorly) trying to articulate the 'hypocrisy' that comes with saying 'sniper has no counterplay' and 'your just mad because the scorch shot counters sniper'
What fish then says is that the scorch shot only 'counters' sniper if he's:
A) not wearing the DD or CC
B)Not near a dispenser, health pack or medic
C) Is so tunnel visioned that he can't see a bright, glowing flare approach him from across the map
D)Not near his team, the cart or behind a wall
E)so poorly positioned that he can even be direct hit in the first place
Meanwhile Sniper's counterplay for everyone besides a much better sniper, a very lucky spy or 40 seconds of building uber/banner is:
A)Avoid his infinitely long hallway of death while also fighting the rest of his entire team :)
@@Nilon241 that's kinda the issue with every anti sniper tool in the game they are either shit or they only punish the dumb ones so to a good sniper there reallt is no good counter play
@GrimmLordFromOhio what even is uttp
@Reecenolan9292 It’s a bunch of 14 year olds who want to “destroy all fandoms”. Same crowd as the kids who hate gay people and call themselves sigmas
@@ThecompanyPresident oh... so, uh, basically, fatherless behavior...?
"Ultimately the potential to oneshot or cripple enemies with no effort involved whatsoever is all it needs to be incredibly oppressive, and that's where the problem lies."
You're right, Sniper Rifles are problematic, and probably need to be fixed.
/J
you need to aim with those generally
How can you cripple someone with sniper?
@@masonkay7024 give them massive damage in one hit
this either sets up the respawn screen "crowd control" effect, or forces them to retreat in fear of getting hit again and seeing the respawn screen
@@TheOneWhoHasABadName so cowardly behavior from the enemy counts as crowd control
@@masonkay7024 its not cowardly to run when your hp just immediately got knocked down to 10%, because if you don't you'll be even more useless then if you run.
"Sure, it's it's only a retreat, but a forced retreat still"
A sniper headshot can oneshot almost anything consistently, and dying is worse than having to retreat.
Taking a slodier rocket in your face, especially a direct hit one, makes you usually so low in health (if you survive) that you need to retreat also. In the direct hit case it's also a very fast projectile that doesn't suffer from gravity.
And burst damage is way more important than damage over time because low health enough and you die, while with a damage over time effect you at least have a chance to survive.
As for the heavy point, if there's no medic near the frontline then the team probably has a composition problem. Or maybe the only medic died but still. And heavy is usually countered by fast hit and run classes. If it was inside a building at close range a pyro could use his flamethrower to burn heavy and run away all the same.
Now now, is the scorch shot stronger than most weapons? Yeah, I won't argue, but is it that bad? really not. It's mostly a more reliable option compared to other flare gun so peoples get hit by it more often, so they feel it more often, but in reality it's not *that* bad.
Welp, at least I've given arguments and not just threw around "ur just a sniper main" like others. And even I admit that the scorch shot is undeniably strong.
Edit : I was about midway in the video when I typed this, I just felt a surge of inspiration for this specific argument. I'm not even a scorch shot main.
Edit 2 : I T S T U N S ? ? ? ?
Problem is, Soldier rockets and Sniper rifles are primary weapons. Those are the main functions of the class and they are intended to deal heavy damage, with the rockets moving far slower and having severe damage falloff, and the sniper rifle you have to actually hit the head. Even comparing a pyro secondary to a fucking rocket launcher or sniper rifle is where the problem lies.
@@aph391 Sticky Bomb Launcher is technically a secondary weapon and is the strongest weapon in the game.
@@Sarmathalyeah but tbh demo man is designed with 2 primaries
@@aph391 Mmmh yes, but still, it IS noticeably weaker than almost every single primary, and like Sarmathal said, Demo also have sticky bombs, which are spammy, strong and a secondary.
And once again, as far as secondaries go, I do want to admit it's on the very high end. Also I had no clue about the stun until 20 minutes ago 💀 (I don't aim nearly good enough)
@@tezereth stickies don’t count and you know it
Fish: You should care if your enemies are having fun.
Also Fish: *Mains Sniper*
Why do you think that those are connected
@@masonkay7024 Because a sniper past a point can turn off the game for everyone else while having infinite range.
@@kiracaroso that’s a problem with map design not sniper
@@masonkay7024 What other class can instakill from outside of the range of interaction in .2 seconds or just by waiting for a few and hitting literally any part of the body?
@masonkay7024 it's the main problem with sniper imo. Don't really think the class is OP, but it's incredibly unfun to play against, which is kind of worse. The main counterplay to sniper, at least for my main, is to just not interact at all by avoiding sightlines, which is simply boring. The fun of tf2 is the freedom of movement and scrapping with the enemy team, not hiding from a one shot class halfway across the map.
I was really hoping you'd go more in detail with the differences between detonator and scorch shot. LED's video on the topic particularly changed my mind, since it showed how in many scenarios the detonator is actually better than the scorch shot at spamming, it's just that no one uses it that way because the stats lead them to believe it should only be used for jumping.
imo the Detonator's kinda in the same boat as the stock Flare Gun in that they both have a higher skill ceiling, and get much stronger than the Scorch Shot if you spend a lot of practice getting really good with them, but the skill floor for each of those is so, so much higher. If you give any random pubber one of the flare guns odds are they're gonna have much more success with the Scorch than any other Pyro Secondary.
Like, if some F2P has the Scorch, a lot of players are going to spend a lot of time on fire. If a true Pyro Main has the Detonator, the whole enemy is going to spend ALL the time on Fire, and also being hounded down by Axtinguishers from the sky.
@@tuckermatis1572 The thing is, the skill floor for the detonator is honestly not that high. It's pretty easy to spam with it, and the timing isn't brain dead easy but it's also not this mechanic that requires a lot of practice to master or understand. The detonator is in the exact same boat as the scorch shot, except it has a higher skill ceiling which comes with better performance, but then has a skill floor that is somewhere between stock and the scorch shot but closer to scorch shot than it is to stock.
@@disappointedcucumber I see your point, but like, when you put the two side by side, the Scorch is much more obviously the crutch weapon to Detonator's meta. The Scorch does more raw fire damage as long as some of the spam bounces, in the first place, and if you're giving that up it's gotta be because you want the Det's versatility and more situational uses. Like, you've got to be good at Flare Jumping, at sensing and shooting around corners, at distinguishing between when you want spam and directs, at timing the explosion, and at follow-through for the Detonator to be the favorable choice over the Scorch Shot, which only wants you to point at enemies and click for lots of nearly free spam damage. None of those are *too* ludicrously difficult, like you said, but in general you do have to sweat a little harder and earn it a little more, which makes it a lot more palatable as a weapon, at least in my opinion.
That being said, I'm right there with you in that, if the Scorch didn't exist, Det absolutely would be the Pyro's spammiest weapon by miles. There's a lot of reasons it's generally regarded as the Meta pick in Highlander, and the fact that it puts Pyro right along with Soldier/Demo in Spamming+Jumping ability is imo one of the biggest.
@@tuckermatis1572
Scorch Shot deals more raw damage if you look at the numbers. Realistically though, the detonator will actually give more damage because the explosion of the detonator makes it easier to hit players, as opposed to the scorch shot where missing a direct hit will cause the explosion to happen on some random surface far away from the target you were trying to hit. Also, I'm taking this point straight from LED's video but Vorobey did an experiment comparing the DPS and DPM of Detonator vs. Scorch Shot and found that the Detonator's was higher (often times significantly higher). This isn't the most cut-clear evidence since there's always going to be some extraneous variables, but it's a pretty big indicator that in practicality the detonator is better for damage.
Please note that the rest of this paragraph will be me rambling:
What I think is interesting to think about is the skill in using both of these weapons, because now that I've thought about it some more it isn't as simple as one being easier to use and the other being harder to use. If you give a 0-hour player the scorch shot and the detonator, they will perform better with the scorch shot, because the scorch shot is easier to use. If you give a 1000-hour player the scorch shot and the detonator, they will perform better with the detonator, because they are good enough at the game to be able to effectively use the detonator, which is the harder-to-use weapon. What's interesting, though, is that the detonator actually becomes easier to use than the scorch shot if you understand the explosion mechanic. Flares that would have missed on the scorch shot would hit the enemy if you used the detonator, so there should be some hypothetical amount of time where a player will perform better with the detonator than the scorch shot, not because they have enough skill to use the harder-to-use weapon, but because they understand the detonation mechanic well enough that the detonator actually becomes the easier-to-use weapon.
he already has a video on that
this is a repost after all as he stated
I used to heavily rely on the scorch. Then I got good with the detonator. It gives you everything the scorch does minus the knockback but plus small scale rocket jumping. I've become pyro, incinerator of worlds.
Now I'm starting to get good with the normal flare gun after I got myself a less sensitive mouse. It even scares myself how much damage you can do with that thing. Scratched up demo or soldier? Dead in 2 hits. Got into a close distance flamethrower fight with too many enemies? You'll accidentally kill them while retreating.
You literally become the monster from meet the pyro. A freakish monkey that blasts through the air and scores 2 combo hits on your sorry ass before you can even react, ruins an uber, melee kills some random enemy and sets everybody else on fire before dying only to be followed by another 2 enemies who couldn't put out the flames.
These days using the scorch feels more like a handicap.
Regular flare is 100% my go-to for that reason. One flamethrower puff and a well-placed flare kills so quickly. Even higher hp classes can melt if you hit a second flare. My favorite is sniping heavies with it
my problem with all of this is that scorch shot's issues are kind of easily negated by a health pack, while sniper will just instakill you, I never really had issues with pyros using scorch shot but I did experience many moments of being underwhelmed when it was a sniper killing me out of other end of the map, or killing my opponent out of nowhere.
I just don't really see much of an issue with scorch shot with how long it takes to actually do anything and how negatable it is.
I mean, when I play as pyro i prefer to use panic attack with degreaser anyway, and scorch shot pyros are laughably easy to kill because their damage output is pathetically slow, so i wouldn't really agree that scorch is an absolute best option for a secondary, I feel like shotguns are in a completely different area and both stock and panic attack are great weapons and you lose a lot by not picking them, like having faster way to take out enemies, and with panic attack and degreaser, you get to basically dual wield both weapons at the same time which makes pyro not only more fun to play but makes his damage output at short distance much better than that of a flare gun and flamethrower.
i also get to extinguish my teammates for some free health.
Scorch shot is just a boring weapon that does a lot but is comically easy to bypass with minimal ammount of effort to the point I'm surprised it's still somehow a point of contention.
Sniper and scorch shot are both things in tf2 that need reworking
If you would care about your enemies having fun you wouldnt be maining sniper.
1:59.
@@ChaseVaccaro-ge3gk addressing it doesn’t make it not true
Exactly dude, Sniper is just a "Fuck you!" to everyone. Fish shouldn’t complain about the Scorch Shot not caring about the enemy‘s fun if he mains a class which doesn’t care about the enemy‘s fun.
Other thing about the “why should I care if my enemies are having fun?” thing that I’m surprised you didn’t bring up. Trying to not play like a douchebag as best you can is also great for new players who are trying to learn the ropes and will objectively be better for the game’s longevity and approachability. If you like tf2 and want to continue to have fun with it, doing your part in making the game fun for everyone is in your best interest.
Praise be flare gun pyro
I'm not one since I've been trying to use Dragon fury and Manmehlter...combo more efficient then you think
To all the bots in the replies. Good 😎 do it, nerds
When I'm on a server with respectable players who are all just having a good time yeah my goal is to make sure everyone is having fun, but that goes straight out the window when some sweaty edgelord on the other team has over 100 points and a 20+ kill streak, spawncamping our whole team as sniper, why should I care if he's having fun?
@@XSpamDragonX you… don’t have to I guess? That person clearly doesn’t care if anyone else is having an enjoyable experience. I guess it’s alright to resort to worse things in that situation, but I think it’s even better to beat them using things that aren’t also cheesy or annoying. It sends a stronger message and realistically will make them more upset. Like, I pretty much use exclusively back scatter on scout and it’s especially fun to beat toxic people with it since it’s dumb and bad
@@deyontemyers4109pls explain how that combo is good
I get your point that maining sniper shouldn’t invalidate your criticisms towards the scorch shot but do you not realize how hypocritical you sound when you talk about how you should care about your enemies having fun when you play the instakill from any range class? Playing against a sniper (especially a good one) is extremely unfun, yet you don’t seem to hate them as much as you do scorch shot pyros. I do agree tho that the stun should be removed from the scorch shot.
"Easiest damaging class" laughs as I think about demo, heavy and soldier
8:54 You can apply that just to being too good at a game, your enemies don't care that you spend 70 years perfecting something and are doing impossible things, you are dominating them, and they don't have fun from that
I’ll take having to run to a source of healing to just getting insta-killed from a headshot any day of the week. Not being able to deal with CC is just a skill issue too. There’s at least counterplay to being hit with the scorch shot since you can do something to try to survive vs. just instantly dying to a headshot. One-hit instant kills that aren’t just from goofy random crits are easily a bigger source of removing the fun of an opponent. I’d rather run to a health pack than stare at a respawn timer.
While I can agree with some of your points, your opening argument about Sniper and fun comes off as a bit hypocritical. I'm sorry, but you cannot complain about the Scorch Shot making things unfun with forced retreats and stun when you main and defend the class whose primary function is to instantly kill at long range, thereby instantly ruining the fun of more players more quickly including the Heavy whom you cited as being most affected by the Scorch Shot. I'm not making an argument for balance here one way or the other. I'm just saying if we're going to talk about what's fun and what isn't, Sniper as a class is a much bigger problem than the Scorch Shot. I think that's what people mean when they just call you a Sniper main instead of refuting your arguments. A lot of people don't really care if the Scorch Shot or Sniper is balanced or not. People just find it hypocritical when someone complains about something being unfun, and then they main Sniper. Problem is, Sniper is a lot more inherently oppressive than the Scorch Shot could ever hope to be and people are going to be a lot less receptive to your arguments as a result.
11:31 again, that also describes the sniper rifle.
15:02 And you just did it again, this time using an argument against Sniper!
Seriously, the complete and utter lack of self-awareness is just laughable.
they are both broken
11:20 (ish)
It being so EASY to use it puts you in a sense of security… tunnel vision
That is very different from sniper tunnel vision (excluding mc no life with 15000 hours on sniper) who is trying to concentrate on targets and predict their movement. Instead of just sitting there and click m1.
@@ashtongiertz8728What is this even arguing?
never thought I’d be defending a sniper main but here I am
The sniper actually needs some sort of skill to get good which means you need to be able to hit your headshots which remember, isn’t very easy if you’ve ever tried sniper and don’t forget, your fov is ramped up making you have some tunnel vision no matter how good your ears are, and guess what? The scorch shot doesn’t need any of that, all it needs is good enough aim that you don’t shoot in the opposite direction plus you can still actually see and spam it easily without any real effort or skill required.If you actually paid attention to the video you would realise he’s not a die hard sniper main with ungodly reaction time and aim, he’s just a normal sniper player who even he agrees that sniper isn’t very balanced, your just taking the bait and assuming he ONLY ever plays sniper and will live by his words to defend that sniper isn’t overpowered.
TL;DR (since you clearly don’t have a long enough attention span to watch this whole video): What your saying is completely based on the fact he is a sniper main and you think that he thinks that sniper is a perfectly fine class with no balancing issues
Yes I know I’m mostly repeating what he said in the video but you clearly don’t have enough attention span to watch the whole thing
This video bounced back just like the scorch shot shot
20dmg crossmap projectile, stuns for two seconds, inflicts 4dps afterburn: AAAAAAGHAGAHGH FOURTH STAGE RECTAL CANCER SO OPPPPPPPPP
undodgeable cross map instakill: this is fine and if you think it’s overpowered you’re an idiot
alright man. Okay
This was about the Scorch Shot, but let's address the red herring you've so clearly thrown to dodge the topic.
What Sniper gives up: HP, speed, close quarters combat, support, crowd control
What SS Pyro gives up: A little bit of damage
What Sniper gains: The ability to pick off ONE class every now and again, assuming perfect aim
What SS Pyro gains: The ability to control crowds, send light classes on a death timer, push people back, and lock down choke points
Sniper's counters: Spy, other Snipers, a good deal of long range projectiles, Scout, Battalion's Backup, Vaccinator- In other words, anything that can work at the same range, weaken his headshots, or can flank him.
SS Pyro's counters: Darwin's Danger Shield, Sentries, other Pyros
Ways to avoid Sniper: Look for a red dot, use Bonk or Battalion's, move erratically.
Ways to avoid the SS: Start strafing and p r a y
@@ChaseVaccaro-ge3gkDude, I get your point, but a good Sniper getting a pick around every 2-3 seconds or so isn’t "every now and again." That phrase is more fitting towards Über or the banners.
@@jblazerndrowzy 2-3 seconds isn't too long, but I'd say it's long enough for a good Sniper to not completely ruin the match. And remember, it's even longer if the Sniper fucks up.
When did he ever say that sniper is fine? Doesn’t fish have multiple videos talking about the problems with sniper?
The scorch shot is awesome, respect the sightline
Literally everywhere
You act like this means anything you can’t act like it’s similar to sniper because a strong class and a fundamentally flawed weapon are very different
@@jaade9485 very funny did you name your Sydney sleeper pi$$ gun or something
@@jaade9485 he isn’t he is a requirement for the game to be balanced
@@jaade9485 name a power class with high move speed, you can’t that’s because sniper keeps them incheck you want the payload meta to be a medic heavy soldier or demo and a pyro protecting them from any spy’s because I don’t
As a pyro main , I have come to make my complaint less than a minute in.
I'm not here to deny any of your claims, actually. They're all true, even. But giving pyro so much shit for not requiring skill while still getting easy kills when *SOLDIER IS JUST AS BAD* really grinds my gears. It's here that I reveal my reasons for maining the class in the first place, and all top 3 of my reasons for it is that I hate soldier.
High, near undodgeable close range burst damage, a silly amount of mobility with relatively no cost if you know where health is, and a secondary that only amplifies everything I hate about soldier (gunboats) single handedly decided my main as the only class that can even threaten soldier, barring demoman.
The scorch shot is PREFECT for threatening soldiers at mid rage combat, forcing them to either shoot or retreat instead of just walking at me and waiting for me to airblast. the detonator requires me to hold it and right click if I want it to explode, so I won't be able to react to rockets in time. flares are lethal, but miss (skill issue, I know), and shotguns require consistent use and don't deal much damage outside of flamethrower range. plus, the scorch shot helps keep snipers in check, as long as I know where they are.
The scorch shot is evil, I know. But I feel it's a necessary evil. But even I feel bad when I use it on pocketed heavies who cant even move forward faster than I can knock them back.
Edit: oh my god he mentioned the heavies. +rep he knows what hes talking about
For the most part, i agree, it can get a sniper to stop looking at you funny and is rally good at mid range combat against classes just outside your flamethrower range
Still,op as hell, even i feel bad using this and going against it,and i main engie
@@sensibledog09 Are you me? Do I post while sleepwalking? Because this is the exact same opinion I take, Engi main and all.
Damn, that "why should I care if my enemies are having any fun" comment ✒️🔥
From now on I will use it against Snipers.
LOL shows them 😂
And while you're at it, use this quote too:
"Why should I care if my teammates are having any fun?"
Some Snipers are just so good, even their teammates can't find anyone to shoot.
Or could you practise and get extremely good at trollider specifically to bully snipers
@@SadDrifter dude trolldier is a bad idea.
@@SadDrifter getting good enough at trolldier to reliably kill snipers requires a LOT of practice. as in, weeks of nothing but rocket jump training. not many have the patience for that
You maining sniper is a very valid point tho. Not in this argument, but against you having a soul.
"Why should I care if my enemies are having any fun?" Isn't that the same sentiment Aimbotters have?
Yes, yes it is.
Imagine trying to argue the Scorch Shot is as bad as cheaters.
No, Aimbotters directly enjoy the running the enemy's time, scorch shot users are apathic of it
@@Sarmathal It's not, the point being made here is that your opponent having fun is just as important as you having fun when designing a game.
"I'm not having fun. You shouldn't be having fun either."
_--aimbot mantra_
Really, the Scorch Shot's explosion on impact needs to be given to the Detonator.
It'd make the flare guns each habe their own specific niches.
The normal Flare Gun is what you use when you want to execute players.
The Detonator is for when you want mobility and to set multiple people on fire at a range.
The Scorch Shot is for a ranged "airblast."
and you think a ranged air blast is a good idea?
imo the scorch shot should be the deterrent weapon, relatively weak, can't do much damage, good at harassments and DoT.
use before big fights as either a deterrent to scare enemies off a fight or to start a fight you are going to commit to, rather then during a fight to stun the opponent and deal like 50 damage because of hit +mini crit hit
the detonator already has a nietch in mobility and more direct form of focus damage, requiring the pyro to focus on the flare itself.
12:00 you can knockback (not stun) an enemy with the scorch shot for half a second
or you could plant a rocket at their feet, dealing way more burst damage and getting just as much of a "stun"
or you could zoom in, click on their head and stun them for 30 seconds by sending them back to spawn
you can annoy a bunch of people trying to get through a choke point with the scorch shot
or you can delete them with stickies or rockets
5:20 you can "1-shot" a light enemy with the scorch shot by hitting them with the direct+flare bounce and they fail to find healing or water
or you could zoom in and click on their head
4:24 heavy gets "countered" by the scorch shot at long range
heavy also gets countered by normal flares, sniper and crossbow
long-range damage that doesn't fall off is tough for heavy because he's big, slow and short-ranged
13:05 the double donk takes precision aim and timing (to stun and double-hit a target), unlike the scorch shot
so what?
How does that make it more fun to fight against?
How is the aiming more precise than the scorch shot?
maybe sniper and demo take more skill to do those things
but does that make it more fun to fight against?
It seems your basic argument (eg: 8:00 and especially 8:45 onward) is that you're a jerk for using scorch shot because it's no fun to fight against
Why doesn't that apply to sniper?
If it's that you can get close and destroy the sniper
(unless he's way more skillful than you)
well, you can get to midrange and destroy the pyro
14:00
It sounds like you're more mad about being scorch shotted than outright killed
If it was "supposed" to always get the double-hit would you be less mad?
16:05 Is the scorch shot the strongest pyro secondary, incredibly easy to use, requires you to give up basically nothing for a slew of benefits?
I don't think so
Crits on burning enemies is not nothing
And the shotguns are at least as strong
Maybe the scorch shot has the lowest skill floor of pyro secondaries and is annoying to fight
But I think once a pyro is mid skilled they're going to get objectively better results with the other options
I play pyro and medic about equally, followed by soldier, engie and heavy
I can't recall ever being frustrated about incoming scorch shot spam
It's a lot less threatening than incoming rocket or pipe spam
3:00
I really do think your perception is colored by maining sniper even if you feel that you can deal with the scorch shot adequately as that class
sniper is at the opposite extreme from pyro, medic and engie
pyro, med and engie require pretty minimal aim but are mostly about game-sense and positioning
sniper is mostly about aim, with pretty obvious positioning
your other most-played classes (soldier and scout) also tend towards the "aim-focused" end of the spectrum with the ability to rapidly reposition
perhaps what you regard as "unskillful" is emphasizing different skills that you don't value as highly or find uninteresting
(see also comment at 9:40 about how competitive players have to have good aim)
also your apparent dislike for playing health-support classes probably means you're less likely than me to have access to medics and dispensers
(because I take these classes highly if my team is lacking them, hence my high play-rate of medic and engineer)
And yeah, if your team is lacking health support then scorch shot will be a lot more annoying
When the main point of the video is about how it isn’t that overpowered in and of itself but because its best comparisons are Primary Weapons and its strength and facets are far more akin to those of a long range rocket launcher than a flare gun.
someone didnt watch the whole video lmao
@@aph391 "the main point of the video"
He does make that point but I didn't take that to be the main point
How does the annoying/anti-fun enemy weapon being a primary rather than a secondary help you?
@@mouthwide0pen I added some time-stamps so you can see what I'm responding to with each snippet
@@anonymousAJ then you clearly didnt get to the part where he points out that a pyro secondary should not be getting comparisons to soldier primaries and the like
yes a rocket launcher is a better weapon
a rocket launcher is the primary of a fucking power class. the fact that the scorch shot, a secondary on... whatever pyro is, is getting compared to the rocket launcher in the first place, is absurd!
My response to “Why should I care if my enemies are having any fun?” would be “Okay, why should your enemies care if you’re having any fun?
The sniper main argument was probably not against that scorch shot is op. It was more likely about you being somewhat hypocritical. The scorch shot sucks to fight against but sniper is even worse. At least with the scorch shot you can go to a health pack after a direct hit. A sniper bodyshot will kill you instantly and is infinitely easier to hit and there is nothing you can really do about it.
no it was absolutely about it countering sniper. there are people in this comment section saying this very thing, despite the video pointing out the danger shield
@@mouthwide0pen Ok
Being a long time viewer of fish, its kind of impossible not to say his options aren't coloured by being a sniper man.
The difference between his video on the Bazaar and the Diamondback, among other stuff
this isn't Hipocrisy. They can both be terrible to fight against. Sniper and Pyro aren't the only classes in the game.
I'm fine with it because it makes the Manmelter a viable counterpick :^)
@thebestgachaever2666 I'd like to see you try >:)
One must imagine Heavy weapons guy happy
Your concerns about it being overpowered by forcing a retreat are invalid, because this is a game where sniper exists. What's worse than getting set on fire and needing to retreat? Getting headshot and dying, *forcing* you to respawn. That's not even something you can play around: Everything that's bad about the scorch shot is worse about sniper as a class. At least with the shot you have a chance by seeing the projectile coming and being able to dodge, and not getting one shot. Sniper is hitscan, and instant death. There IS no counterplay to that, assuming the sniper can land his shots.
If you are fine with sniper (and evidently you are, considering you main it) then you should be even more fine with the scorch shot existing.
Edit: And hearing you complain about people who don't care about how much fun the enemy is having is rich, coming from you, for reasons aforementioned. Believe it or not, trying to win is not abnormal. It is not any player's responsibility to ensure the ENEMY TEAM that they are FIGHTING AGAINST in a GAME ABOUT FIGHTING AND WINNING is in this magical dead zone where they can be loosing and dying and yet still be having fun. Ideally that happens, but it's not fair for someone to just claim they're not having any fun, which is subjective anyway, and blame the enemies over it and claim they're the problem.
1:59. Also, for Sniper, it's the point of the class, which he's made several sacrifices to get (lower health, fucked at close range, etc), and with Pyro, it's a concession. A really big concession that nullifies his weakness.
hate over the scorch shot makes more sense when you realize this is the sniper main talking because harassing snipers is literally the only thing the scorch shot does better then other secondaries.
"Why should i care if my enemies are having fun" my brother in christ you are playing the walking fun destroyer
"Just don't be an asshole while using it" The problem is though is where is that line drawn? Some people will say simply using it makes you one, some say spamming it, some say mixing it with certain weapons makes you one, the line is so blurred cause people all have different reactions to the weapon when in reality its honestly not that bad, ive been playing TF2 well before the scorch shot came out and the amount of times ive been killed/"had my experience ruined" by a pyro using it is little to none, i think its less about the weapon and more about your own mindset going into the game over something that can easily be dealt with
I'd say if you use it as a spam tool or as steroids for the Phlog, AND know what they're doing. Those are my two boundaries.
My biggest problem with the scortch shot is its ability to hit you twice with the same proyectile, it does not only bypasses the 25% damage penalty but rewards the user with minicritis for literally no effort, although this does not happen all the time, it is more common as i'd like it to be, really funny when a pyro shots you once and you get a double hit + minicrits + afterburn, for light clases if you are not near a health pack you are already dead.
good video. my one complaint is that it's not stun, it's a knock up. you can still aim and fire your weapon, and damage surf. it's still a CC effect on a weapon that really shouldn't have a CC effect on it, but it's not a stun. the huntsman taunt has a stun. the sandman had a stun. the scorch shot does not, and never had a stun.
It's a fine effect, but attached to the effect is a lethal amount of damage that forces you to drop whatever you were doing before. If there was less damage attached to the "knock up" then it would be an interesting situational mechanic. I don't think it's bad necessarily it can be done at range
They paralyze themselves when get knockback so they call a stun.
@@ethandavis7310lethal damage???
4:24 "there the easiest targets to hit with the thing" (missed twice)
"loose cannon has a clip" what argument is this supposed to be, scorch shot had to reload after every shot
But doesn’t it take just a second?
@@johngojcevic8731 yeah but reloading all 4 cannon shots takes less than reloading 4 scorch shots.
my point being the cannon by that metric is more spammable.
@@titicaca. ok thanks for the explanation
My issue with the scorch shot is it’s boring to use. Yeah it has crazy damage, but it doesn’t have the good burst damage or the fun jumps like the alternatives. I want dopamine from well aimed flares, so unsurprisingly I get none from spamming down chokes and damaging people over time
Idk, stunning someone for an axetinguisher hit is kinda satisfying
It's fun af to use with the Dragon's Fury.
@@Sarmathal That's how I use it! I run axetinguisher, dragons fury, and scorch shot. The scorch shot is literally just to increase my margin of error for dragon's fury.
@@Sarmathal that loadout is the sole thing that keeps me playing pyro ngl
@GrimmLordFromOhio wtf is a UTTP
Okay, but snipers infamously body heavies as well Fish.
Honestly the worst part of his argument, yeah it annoys heavies bad but even the flare gun would kill if they're completely unwilling to fall back or anything in those situations
1:59.
See, the problem is that the moment the notion of 'skill' is mentioned, I can't really take the argument on that point too seriously. The far and wide majority of weapons in tf2 are pretty easy to use, its part of the appeal of the game as a whole, but singling this one out when the likes of hitscan miniguns, sticky spam, auto aiming engineer turrets, and even the extremely over-estimated rocket launchers take the notion of aiming as little more than a suggestion is a bit hypocritical.
As for the CC? See above. Explosives jostle and stun on the regular and in spammy quantities, as well as a lot of bullet weapons having pushback that at best case slow you down, worst case lock in place as you get turned to spaghetti.
Too much damage/is the best secondary in slot for damage? Well, its a situational coinflip on the former since worst case it can do enough to burn a light class--over the course of 10 seconds. Getting abruptly clipped by the explosion of one (A far more common scenario) will do only 80, over the course of 8 seconds. Literally every single weapon in the game can do more dps than that, and in scenarios where you are likely hitting multiple people, that is also more than likely going to include said multiple people having an extinguishing source nearby or a medic, or a dispenser. And trying to rationalize it as his best secondary is a bit subjective, since it does have range and splash, but every single shotgun *significantly* outDPS's all of Pyro's flares; fun fact in the time it takes to shoot a flare and fully reload a shotgun can kill a soldier fully. And for it being the strongest/most overpowered secondary out there? I think that title goes to demo's sticky launchers really.
Not making it a point to be as anti-fun as possible? Now this... is an interesting one. Fundamentally I agree that trying to make scenarios in gaming fun for all is important, but there are issues with trying to rationalize it fully as an argument. Mainly being that, like how there are a plethora of easy to use and really strong tools, are there many many other combinations of weapons that are just as headache inducing and deserving of vitriol. As you stated with the counter to the scorch being the darwin's: Broken pieces of shit being used to fight broken pieces of shit is a far too common downwards spiral in lobbies, because while you assert the count of people who care little for the enemy's feelings are outcasted sociopaths, I'd almost argue that they are far more common than the empathetic ones. And for as much as people will cry out that their fun is being ruined they would just as quickly pull a hypocritical state and shit on other people in a turbo un-fun way for their own sake when the tables can be turned. Granted this point isn't really defending or disproving and more so cynically relenting it to the pyre of 'more shit for the fan' when it comes to people being toxic and insane; what's one more annoying tool betwixt quickiebomb spam, kunai spies, comp players in pubs, and really good snipers.
All of which is to say, I genuinely do not think its that overpowered as neither a secondary nor as a weapon in the game period. Granted, if they were to nerf it in the vein of removing the knockback CC I wouldn't object either, but I don't think its worth quite the degree of anathematic disdain it gets.
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Extremely reductive tl;dr: Spam gun is fine because it exists in game full of spam guns that spam just as harder if not harder.
9:10 I’m sorry but what a nonsensical argument, using this logic literally no weapon or class should be used less you risk the chance that the enemy team get frustrated at the use of a virtual item, there isn’t a situation where everyone is having fun all the time, like it or not, people are going to occasionally get salty at something in the game whether it’s warranted or not, like I usually like your stuff fish but trying to reach for the moral high ground argument over someone using a video game weapon that you don’t like just comes off as a overly childish and petty hill to die on.
"I think it's stupid that sniper can turn off an entire class".
I think it's stupid too, just like how Pyro turns off any spy player not using the Ringer.
Hey maybe think for a sec before you speak next time
pyro at least has to do something and he can miss, the darwins danger shield is passive and doesn’t require any effort to function every time no matter what
It probably would have been better phrased as "I think it's stupid that sniper can turn off an intended counter," since I imagine that's closer to the intent.
I main spy with pretty much exclusively Ltranger, Big Earner and Stock invis and I don't find this to be the case. With some tricky movement and dodges you can easily dodge a pyro, and in the cases where a pyro kills me i would usually have died to any other class the same way. The only times when that's not true is when a pyro is systematically checking every corner for the entire match, which (while countering me assuming I'm in the same area) means that the enemy team effectively has 1 less player. And even then I'm usually able to just avoid being near the pyro using map knowledge.
People who think that Scorch Shot counters Sniper are guaranteed to play only 2fort 24/7
😏
or harvest
the schoch shot is op but when im annoyed at snipers i gotta just pull it out
I pull out the Manmehlter because of the speed bonus and crit on first hit
I agree with the whole video but a Sniper main talking about how you should care that your opponents are having fun is really funny
I feel like the whole discussion around the Scorch Shot has been ruined by a completely unnecessary indictment of pyro players. I don’t defend the design or balance of the Scorch Shot; it’s probably overpowered, definitely unfun to play against, and should be changed so that it isn’t either of those things (although it likely never will). I think this video and the others like it on RUclips do a good job of analyzing the mechanical issues of this weapon, and most of the suggestions on how to balance it are at least sensible.
To that end, I find all of this video fine except the segment from 8:50 to 10:00. Not only is this section just very rude in general, it’s very hypocritical, as basically all of the arguments against Scorch Shot users can be turned around onto those making the arguments in this video. To try and show this, I’ll rewrite the script from this section but instead against people who trash talk Scorch Shot users:
“Why should I care if my enemies are having any fun? What a self-report of a statement that is. Holding people in contempt because they happen to be using a weapon that you don’t like in a VIDEO GAME and deciding that they don’t deserve to have any fun using it because you feel like you shouldn’t have to deal with that particular weapon that you know exists in the game you have chosen to play. I guarantee you’ll never see these people apologizing to anyone they were trashing if they meet them again on a new server. You SHOULD care if your enemies are having fun because this is a video game that people play to have FUN, and it’s generally a good thing to not be an asshole. Waging war against good people is bad for the soul. This isn’t a single player game where the only person’s fun who matters is yours, but the people who say this wouldn’t know anything about that to begin with because they don’t usually think about the 23 other people in their server with equally real thoughts and emotions. What I’m trying to say is, you don’t need to be so butthurt. Pyro players aren’t using the Scorch Shot to deliberately ruin your day. They’re just normal people who decided to use one of many unlockable weapons in a silly shooter game ABOUT HATS. Chill the fuck out.”
If you were offended by that, congratulations, you realize how annoying it is to be insulted just because you use a weapon in a video game and how irresponsible it is to do that yourself, especially if you are a RUclips creator with lots of fans. Shitting on the weapon is one thing, but a RUclipsr shitting on players IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY for using said weapon is really detrimental to the health of the TF2 community as a whole. Even though FSOAS never says to go and harass Scorch Shot users, a lot of people are going to do that anyway because that’s just how the internet works, and it just contributes to TF2 becoming more toxic and unwelcome.
To reiterate a previous point, people who use the Scorch Shot are no different than most TF2 players, of which you - the reader - are one, and you can hate a weapon without hating the person using it. If you see a person using the Scorch Shot and your first instinct is to call them a fun-hating sociopath, I think that says a lot more about you and your perception of this game than it does about them.
the sniper comment was pretty accurate; but sure we're seetheing
I have waited so long for this moment
Dropping this video on _Thanksgiving_ of all days has got to be the best time imaginable
pyro main here: I find that the flare gun is more useful than the scorch shot
Huzzah! A man of quality
the detonator is fun :3
@OFFICERJIMMYUTTP
grown ass 40 year old man and this is what you do with your time? damn. goddamn.
My thing with the scorch shot is that Pyro is by far the worst damage dealer in the game, and the scorch shot is a generalist option that deals a bit more damage and grants a bit of mobility but doesn't specialize in anything. It doesn't give you the high burst damage of the stock flare and it doesn't give you the same mobility the detonator does. So for me, yeah it's annoying but it doesn't make Pyro stronger than any other option would, but I don't main pyro, I have a tendency to think he's the weakest class in the game so what would I know lol
I think the power that comes from pyro is not his damage, but from his support. He is really good at protecting his teammates lol.
@@bbarbiterEveryone says that, and while I don't think it's completely wrong, the support he provides doesn't feel particularly strong to me.
my POV on the "you play sniper" argument. as a heavy main, i feel a bit of contempt towards sniper. to me, that is one of the least fun classes to play against, and just leaves me with frustration whenever i fall victim to one. in the end, hearing a sniper main complain about something else being boring and unfun to play against almost gives a sensation of "now you know how i feel". what you say about scorch shot, i say about sniper
also, while it might hurt to hear, and something i personally do not condone, that is the truth. if you main and openly defend one of the most stigmatized characters/weapons/perks in any PVP game, prepare to have that used against you during these kinds of rants. in the LoL community, riven mains are going through a similar phase right now. riven has gotten a reputation over the years for being infamously annoying to play against, and her mains are stereotyped as toxic tryhards. now that riven mains start to complain about feeling weak or frequently counterpicked, they get little more than snark in return
I am so glad I stuck around with this channel!
Your newer videos tend to gravitate closer towards better articulated points or encouraging discussion, makes it more comfy to watch.
I've watched the channel since The Classic video and it's only when watching this video did it remind me how hostile some of the earlier videos were, especially the shiv video. Nowadays its less time spent shouting, more time spent having a conversation and making me think.
See, it's hard to empathise with a guy that insults their audience and goes on rants. Because of that, I think your huntsman and bazaar bargain videos are definitely those that avoid this trap time and time again, which makes them a more pleasant watch, despite encountering so many opportunities for it to go wrong.
At the same time though, practice what you preach. If you can use the "it's a video game" card like you did here, then you HAVE to cut down on anger and hostility, otherwise it's hard to take you seriously and it makes you look like you care way too much about a decades old video game. We watch RUclips videos to be both educated and entertained after all. I came here for balance discussions and I wanna hear your thoughts, assuming they are clear, civil and sober.
And I'm saying all of this as a huge fan of the channel!
Can't wait for you to cover more topics in the future!
Just a reminder that this thing can also destroy stickies for SOME REASON
It is kinda fun to use his taunt to pepper enemies
Click on a Fish video without hearing about the scorch shot challenge: Difficulty: Imossible.
For real though, the scorch shot isn't really Overpowered. I don't use it, because both the flare gun and the detonator are just better options in 90% of scenarios. The only thing it really seems to have over either is consistency, but applying after burn is really more of a nuisance than actually effective. There's a reason that pyro's design shifted from "Set people on fire" to "Set people on fire then do something else to score a crit". I mean, most of the clips shown even seem to demostrate that you'd either be better off using the flare gun, or aren't really doing much with the weapon to begin with.
If you think it's an unfun weapon to fight against, I can see that, and agree to an extent. IT's main function seems to be as annoying as consistently as possible, but that's a far cry from being unbalanced. The bit about one shot potential is true, but from how I see it, hitting someone directly from across the map with it is possible but not neccessarily easy? A huntsman can do the same, except it's instant, has a faster projectile, and is just as spammable. But I don't think anyone's out to call the hunstman an unbalanced weapon. there seems to be an insinuation that the weapon has zero skill needed to get anything out from it, but I just don't really see that being the case.
As for stuns, Huntsman has knockback, rockets pop you up, stickies and pills can pop you up too, the natasha slows, the sandman slows, hell, airblast is a built in mechanic for pyro. If it were more actionable, I'd be okay with that, and think it was a good change, but honestly, there's way more obnoxious mechanics and weapons in TF2, that I'm genuinely flabergasted at how much people seem to detest the scorch shot.
Question. Why is the Detonator not as condemned as the Scorch shot despite the Detonator being objectively better? As you said, on some maps you have to hit directly which nerfs the Scorch Shot but the Detonator doesn't. So you can spam the Detonator just like the Scorch shot, light up areas like the Scorch shot and it's more effective since you manually detonate it. The timing isn't hard at all either. So why doesn't the Detonator get any hate? Is it just because of the flare bounce?
Det doesnt get hate because people don't actually care about 99% of what the scorch shot does, it's kind of just a punching bag for being disrupted by a pyro I feel like.
Yeah it's the flare bounces. With the scorch shot if you get hit directly you're screwed since you'll always take that mini crit damage with no way to avoid it. With the detonator you get hit once and then you have time to dodge the second flare since you know it's coming. + It's alot less spammy since you can keep clicking over and over, you have to click, watch to time your det, and then fire again. That marginal skill barrier makes it infinitely more bearable than the scorch shot. Combine that with the fact that most people using the det are using it for cool movement instead of bullshit spam and you can see why its preferred to the scorch shot.
Heavy : the strongest and biggest class among his team
pyro : fire scorch shot
Heavy : somehow get knocked back so hard that his body bounces like rubber ball
I don't know this video still sounds like a salty sniper that deal with a pyro that was spamming scorched shot. I get that this weapon need some nerf, but saying this weapon is the worst example of enemy team not having fun and can't play the game where the sniper rifles are there in there state their in with also the vaccinator(and this is coming from a medic main) existing
3:30 nah the best snipers will use the cozy camper and disable ALL aim punch, not just pyros.
12:11 I can definitely agree with this sentiment. As someone who loves the weapon and doesn't mind it being used against me, I've often thought the dumbest part of it was the stun.
Please be sure to give your secretary chin scratches on my behalf posthaste; and, while you're at it, file them this comment communicating to them that they're adorable.
11:44 Hey! That scout was me. Look ma, I’m on TV!
Scorch shot compared to sniper is such a non issue its wild. I've literally never had a thought about the scorch shot being unbalanced in 2200 hours. Sniper on the other hand can delete over half the cast as quick as someone could react, and can threaten that at any distance. It sucks when some sweat with 800 hours on sniper and tacky hats is making montages, and while it's fun to be on the giving end of that exchange there is so little counterplay if you are hitting your shots and not overextending. A good scorch shot user uses the flare gun, a good sniper kills anyone :) I dont think you're biased but I think your take is really bad
Saying that the scotch shot is the better option out of all of pyros secondaries is a stretch n a half. Sure, it can be annoying as all hell to play against but the flare gun is ultimately better in actually killing your targets. Like you said most light classes are not gonna die to the afterburn as they are gonna run away to some hp or med, thats annoying but not over powered. If it happened to do crit afterburn then yeah I would agree but nah man, this video just came off as you not liking the scortch shot which is fine but nah i dont agree with it being overpowered
I used to hate this weapon. But my opinion has changed after 1050 hours of playing the game. So prepare for a hot take: The stun mechanic isn’t that annoying because of how little little direct hits actually happen. When they do happen, it’s pretty annoying, but it’s overblown. Is the weapon busted compared to the other flares and rewards you with so much for so little? 100%. Should it be nerfed? Probably. But is it as annoying as people say? Not really. Maybe it’s because the majority of pyros who use it are more new. Maybe it’s because I play on less choke heavy maps. Maybe it’s because the majority of pyros who use it understand it tends to be safer to try and shoot at the guys feet and treat it like a rocket(at least from far away where alot of pyros tend to use it).
I guess it is pretty annoying, but not nearly as much as getting killed by a sniper who was 2 pixels on my screen while I was engaging the mid fight with a soldier. At least I have a chance to run to a health pack, dispenser, or medic.
Agreed. I don't think that scorch pyros even bother to direct hit, they just spam it for cheap damage and forced enemy retreats.
I agree the stun isn't its main issue, it's the damage. Forcing an enemy to completely alter their plans to avoid dying from a lucky cross map shot is even more annoying than getting knocked into the air a little bit. I think the stun is an interesting mechanic and people don't consider what a change in afterburn damage would do for the stun interaction
When you think you're complaining about a weapon for the pyro but you end up complaining about the Sniper class as a whole@@ethandavis7310
I disagree, but only when talking about heavy. Heavy is supposed to be pyros counter, and the poor fat bastard can't even advance faster than he gets knocked back from outside his range. the rest of the classes can go to hell or whatever though
I agree. The stun isn't that bad and if you're moving it actually gives you a boost of speed which you may or may not like depending on if there are cliffs or holes nearby but the stun isn't that part I'm concerned about. I don't like how easy it is compared to the others and how easy it is to spam. If you want to use this at long range just aim from range. If you want to the same with the Detonator you gotta watch that ONE FLARE until it gets close to an enemy and det. Doing this leaves you vulnerable to things like headshots. I say make it like a pipe. You hit someone on direct and you get the AOE. Maybe to compensate lower the damage penalty to 25%. Or make it like the loose cannon where you time it, aim and do double donks but that might need a change from secondary to primary slot. But at the same time I saw a trickshot video by anthid where he used the bouncing flare to get off the ground and do cool stuff with it, and I don't want it go away.
I think Fish hits on an aspect that completely damns the Scorch Shot: even if it WEREN'T overpowered, it's fucking miserable to play against, which is plenty reason to change it
that is true and more important than most people think
As long as sniper remains in the game people have no right to dislike the Scorch Shot as much as they do.
@@owenbunten6536Ironically, I can just replace "Scorch Shot" in my previous comment with "Sniper" and it still reads completely accurate
I was using The Scorch Shot before because I liked it, now I'm using it because it makes people mad, I was thinking of switching to Shotgun but you changed my mind, thanks FSOAS
While i agree with the general thought you have weapon, i feel the scorchshot is bad more on a class by class basis. For example I mostly play medic and a scorchshot pyro is actually not bad at all. I barely get damaged and lots of times its the pyro shooting it at random times where there is no ongoing fight happening, so its essentially free uber. The only time its an issue is if they run phlog, which is sort of like when spy is on the enemy team. Once i know they exist, its easier to not get tricked again. And honestly when it comes to making everyone have fun, i honestly feel sniper is more of a class that applies. As medic, everyone wants you dead, and while you can somewhat avoid most fight by, not going in blindly or surfing damage as a last resort, sniper immediately shuts you down the easiest. You are the firss to target and they will kill you everytime if you even enter their sight lines. And some maps are incredibly difficult to heal or support your team, without entering a big zone where one sniper, far from any danger, instantly kills you. Its such a bad thing that i partially second sniper, just to hard counter other snipers because its not fun. Its not fun to support your team and try to play, and there is a class that can very effectively kill you from extremely far, and there is nothing you can do but try to get your team to rush them or switch and counter them. Thought the video was great and always fun to watch your vids, but in terms of letting your opponent have fun, i feel its weird to say that when there is a class that it seems alot of people complain, make the games less fun.
I mostly use the scorch shot to clear demo stickies
me when i run out of content
Every time I watch a video about the Scorch Shot it just makes me want to boot up TF2 and play with the Scorch Shot and just sit around chucking long-range fireballs...
Just be sure not to hit anyone.
Something i know is never gonna happen but would be neat is if they pulled an Equalizer and split the weapon, the Scorch can keep the AOE Burn, and the Knockback is moved to a new weapon that basically gives Pyro a mini Loose Cannon without the Donking or Afterburn, and it would need WAY more gravity to make it shorter range, don't know how balanced that would be but i think it would be fun.
Another idea i have is to make the scorch shot extinguish burning players to deal its minicrits, would make it somewhat less spam able and more easy to escape from I'd think.
The Detonator already has AoE damage. So, there isn't much need to seperate out the two functions of the Scorch Shot but rather just remove the AoE off it and tweak the knockback so it's a tad more 'fightable' like the current airblast. In fact, I can safely say that I wouldn't miss not being able to flare jump with the Scorch Shot if the AoE damage was removed because it's so pitiful that you are better off using the Detonator for that purpose.
To be honest, I tend to couple the Scorch Shot with the Dragon's Fury to make up for the fact it has a slow firerate for its airblast. The Scorch Shot's knockback and backpack reload meant you could swap between the two if you needed to help stall an Uber.
@@Techhunter_Talon The knockback is fine with aoe removed. Sorta like the sandman. People think the reason directs suck is the stun, but it's actually having to drop everything you're doing to get health so you don't die. Bigger annoyance than getting popped up into the air for a sec. With aoe removed it's not a death sentence to get directed
I mean dude if you make the AOE short range you have further helped sniper
so you say that people who use weapons that aren't fun to fight are sociopaths, but you main sniper, as if getting stunned for one second and getting a damage over time effect from a projectile you can see coming is less fun than getting instakilled by a hitscan you can't see coming, or do much of anything about?
"Buh huh u main sniper" way to whack a low hanging fruit.
only proper counter sniper pyro weapon is the mannmelter because you have to actually countersnipe
i didnt think the scorch shot was op until i hit a random crit on a spy standing right next to a demo and scout and hit the spy again mid air and killed all three
Same energy as firing a Beggar's Bazooka and hitting a group of enemies you weren't even looking at
I mean, a random crit sticky, pipe and rocket can do the exact same
@@onlymyself1234 yea, but those are primary weapons that the classes who specialise in breaking up crowds have. i dont know if pyros little pea shooter should do the same
@@SarutinMcWhotookmynameYeah if his was a primary weapon that'd make sense but this is a secondary. Imagine if the shotgun could do this.
you cant take random crits into account when talking about balance. theoretically, you could kill 10 people at once with a random crit shotgun shot, if everyone was on low health. does that make the shotgun op? no.
I don't disagree this thing is obnoxious, but I still can't stand sweaty snipers ruining casual matches and will spam the scorch shot at them as long as I want to. I don't care if the sweatlord on the other team isn't having fun, their whole goal is to ruin the game for everyone else already. I'm not gonna spam the scorch shot at some poor f2p heavy, but when my match has already been ruined by a top scoring 25 killstreak sweaty sniper I just can't care anymore. I switch to pyro exclusively to counter sweaty edgelords playing spy and sniper. I'll stop using the scorch shot when I find an actual CASUAL server where people are actually try to have a good time and do care whether the rest of the server is having fun, until then I'm not holding myself to a higher standard than almost everyone.
We really just got a philosophy lesson in the middle of a tf2 video, we've hit peak content
You forgot that the scorch shot is an utter middle finger to demomen since it can instantly destroy all stickybombs in its blast radius
So can the detonator
@@thebushbros6626 I feel like it's important to note since it really contributes to the swiss-army-knife-ness of this gun
@@thebushbros6626 yeah, but at the very least you gotta time the detonation to do that, which means in a firefight you might not hit that. but with the scorch shot...
I mean, if your trying to spam out a flare pyro just pipe them? They can't reflect with a flare gun lol
Unless you genuinely don't like being denied your obvious sticky trap because the enemy saw it
typically, its best if the enemy doesnt know where your sticky trap is, or that it even exists before its too late. ive never had trouble with a scorch shot pyro as demo that i didnt feel that i deserved, but i also play demo pretty cocky, so im tolerant of dying to being rushed down by more than i can handle.
I personally use the scorch shot only because I suck with normal flare guns and I’ve started to use the detonator
I use the scorch shot because for whatever reason my right click doesn't work on the Detonator, or when it does there's a massive delay.
Even then im trying to swap to using the normal Flare Gun, and only pull out the SS when my team is getting rolled. It never stops the roll (As Lazy Purple said about the Phlog, the only team you'll roll with the SS was a team you were rolling anyway.), but it gets me a couple extra kills and makes the match feel a little less pointless and onesided.
@@patchwork5532 yea my right click doesn’t work sometimes too, I know what you mean by using the scorch shot and getting the extra kills and stuff
Use regular flare, it's surprisingly good
@@ethandavis7310how long have you been playing? Sounds like you just discovered the Scorch Shot
He wanted to rant more
Plays the most broken class in the game and then complains about pyros best counter to him.
Yeah grow up dude
have you tried watching the video
My personal rework for the scorch shot world be to have it fire a large ball of piercing fire, that would explode once every second for around 20 damage with minimal afterburn. Once it hits a solid surface, it would detonate, and the damage and radius of explosion would depend on how many things it hit during it's airtime. It would start off at 20 damage and direct hit explosion radius, but could later do upwards of 70-90 explosion and the radius would be just a bit larger than the rocket launcher. To compensate for this it would have a built in cooldown, that you can ignore, but you will take 50 damage and the flare would start with the damage buffs and explosion radius buffs equivalent to hitting 2 enemies. It would have a 50% slower reload and half clip size. This would encourage aim and actual thought about when and where to fire, and whether or not to take recoil to do more damage.
Honestly all they need to do is remove the stun and it would be perfectly fine.
The Sandman died a cold, painful death over stun mechanics.
Yet the Scorch Shot still runs free, despite being a worse offender in stun mechanics than the Sandman ever was.