@@gottagofastfaster Ahem "The spin up speed is countered by the damage resistance. The damage resistance isn't too bad on a fast firing weapon, and the speed reduction essentially gives Natasha a stronger accuracy boost than Tomislav at close range, but perhaps weaker at long range as the speed reduction is affected by damage falloff. The Heavy has three main counters: 1. Sniper 2. Spy 3. Rushing the Heavy with a shotgun when he is distracted and/or spinning up, and dodging the shots. The Natasha almost nullifies the last counter while it's upsides counteract it's downsides. So in a way, it's an upgrade from Stock, and even Tomislav can't claim completely destroying Scout, one of the strongest classes in the game." Is probably what he would say
"When I was a child in Gimmelshtump, I always wanted to go to the beach, but my parents never let me, because I needed to guard the house as a gnome (you remember that story, right?) A-anyways, one day, I had enough and snuck out of the house, visiting the Sonnenbrand beach. However, I ended up staying there too long and got a bad sunburn. The sunburn itself was bad enough, but when I got back, everyone made fun of me, especially my "perfect" brother Roger. From that day on, I swore that I would take my revenge on the sun that cursed me, and I came up with this invention: THE PHLOGIST-INATOR! This ingenious device, steals the sun's rays and shoots them at anyone in front of it, and with it, I'll give everyone in the Tri-State Area massive sunburns, and then......well, I don't really know. I didn't plan that far ahead."
Honestly his complaining was way more reasonable in this video, and I didn't even mind it in his others. He's clearly learned that people find it obnoxious when he complains without the appropriate context.
@@metaridley2911 nothing, i guess that the fact it was a random crit makes it funnier, plus, judging by how a single svf killed a demoknight, i'm assuming said demoknight was getting away from a fight he got hurt in before getting a crit axe to the jugular..or maybe i'm wrong, i don't really remenber how much damage the svf does.
The fact that the balancemod nerfed this thing really goes to show you that you can't just do everything the community yells out and think the end result is an improvement
The Phlogchamp is an example of a weapon where trickle-down balancing just doesn't work. It's bullshit "I spam scorch shit and then run in only when I have my win button" in pubs, and "I get my shit pushed in" in comps
@@josefl.2053 I disagree. Never used it, don't even have it to get an understanding. Honestly balancing could very well work, it's just possible no one's got a clue what that could be.
My idea: Phlogistinator *Fires gas When enemies are coated by the gas: +Set on fire +Jarate effect +Airblast ammo -Does not shoot fire, therefore can't actually do any damage on its own aside from Afterburn -50% less ammo for the gas *You or your teammates doing damage to enemies coated with gas, the afterburn damage, and reflect damage counts towards the Mmmmph meter, which when activated allows you to shoot critical fire. *Doing fire damage with other means such as the Scorch Shot would not fill the Mmmmph meter
a youtuber who reviews trading card games introduced to me the concept of cards (or in this case weapons) that help you "win more". essentially it refers to seemingly good tools in your arsenal that only come in handy when you're already winning, so they're actually kinda useless. the phlog is exactly that.
@@windhelmguard5295 if you play Smite, a good example would be the Bloodforge, an item for physical characters that gives you a health shield upon getting a kill. While this is good, and can help you escape after getting a pick, if you aren't already getting kills, it isn't going to exactly help.
7:23 oh that it came from an ideia someone had when jungle inferno came out the flamethrower was updated to increase its range depending on your speed, someone thought "if you could build up infinite speed would u get infinite range?" people knew for a long time that if you were stuck you kept speed, so now the question is "where can i get stuck and still attack?" people found out the cone on frontier had collisions for some reason, so you could bring that cone to your desired location and build up speed from there AND it was small enough that you could attack with the flamethrower
@@chongwillson972 the fury already has close to double the range of other flamethrowers and does more damage in exchange for requiring aim your idea is redundant and shit
@@disgustingg yeah but the dragon fury is shit weapon and is better used when your closer to your target but my idea would require the pyro not to WM1 and to use their other tools like airblasting to push the target to the sweet spot of the flamethrower...
@@750tiprogamer not at all, you get no benefit switching them, nor are they passively benefiting you while holstered. Any one of them will be good enough deterrent to spies and scouts.
I've always seen the Phlogistinator as a specialized tool for breaking through heavily-defended tight spaces and pushing the enemy back enough to establish a foothold. Sort of like a chokepoint plunger, removing annoying clogs of enemies so your team can finally flush their way through.
I remember seeing an idea of giving the Phlog a projectile-deleting airblast similar to the Short Circuit, but I like the more dynamic idea of dividing the Phlog meter into 4 charges and being able to airblast. It’s kinda like in fighting games and choosing whether to use a low or high level super attack (I.e level 1 or 3 supers in DBFZ)
@joshuaadyel you are wasting your phlog meter and also not actually reflecting the projectile, making you a target for other players, and looking at nimbus' idea, you would need half of phlogs current meter requirement for a single airblast
There was a time when it gived you Uber the whole MMMPH charge too, then they reduces to a few moments after initial taunt and, nowdays, only gives Uber while taunting
The lack of air blast really, really hurts this weapon. Still really fun to use though, if you feel like being a backstabbing asshole but don't want to equip the Backburner. Also it's really fun to just shut down parts of a push if you happen to have crits ready.
i particularly like the backburner, but not as a pure ambush. if you have the detonator, you can almost trickburn with it by jumping over someone and flipping around in the air. it's super tough to do, but is soooooo satisfying.
@@gagamer7251 Oh it's absolutely great as a general trick weapon because you can go from being out of position to winning an engagement with a little work. But the phlog works better as a combination of pure ambush and push breaker/maker. For the same reason as the Kritzkrieg, actually.
if the Phlog could do Minicrits in Casual for the ability to have the Short Circuit Delete Ball that costs 65 ammo per use, how would that affect things? I would also add 50HP on Mppph activation that COULD overheal, but my priority for the Phlog is Deleteball ability feedback. also, Short circuit primary fire at least needs "get metal on hit" to have any point to having it IMO. thoughts on this as well?
Phlog + Detonator is wild You get mobility, ranged afterburn, and you can cancel the start up of the taunt by jumping on top of a moving opponent's head And SO many sweaty tryhards absolutely loathe this loadout. It's a good time
I prefer detonator with the phlog. When people run away from the phlogs crits without injury, it's very disheartening to see your meter slowly dwindle without causing the pain and suffering you've waited so long to achieve. But with the detonator, you can close that gap much easier! You can also go full evil by launching yourself on top of an enemy's head and then starting your phlog taunt. When your enemy moves out from underneath you, you fall down and this cancels the taunt animation. You have about a second of free uber AND you get more time to use your crits (because you bypass the taunt animation which uses up some of the meter)
Using the phlog + manmelter would be better like he said so you can still support your team and the manmelter rewards you with crits for supporting teammates on fire. Maybe if you use the phlog with the stock shotgun and homewrecker/maul you can become the ultimate pybro
I am a pyro main and I had my thoughts for the Scorch Shot: -Keep stun and sticky destruction -Nerf damage and afterburn duration to a significant amount to the point you rarely get kills. -Remove Minicrits This transforms the gun into a utility and disruption that pyro can use for support purposes than killing.
Honestly, I kinda like this, makes it so sure, its still brainless, but its effectiveness actually matches the skill required to use it, as instead of killing snipers or noticeably damaging snipers, you're just hindering their aim, and with crowds it only softens them up a bit instead of causing noteable damage to the whole group and maybe enough damage to kill 1 or 2 enemies
Or hear me out. Stop crying about it. The scorch shot is good as is. It allows pyros to counter stuff like scouts and whatnot. Why is it so bad if some weapons make the game easier?
@@danieldeak9141 That literally antithetical to the TF2 formula. Where weapons give and take from their pros 'n cons. When you have a gun that has only pros or only cons, its broken and needs fixing. If you have a problem with scouts, I'm sorry but get good at handeling them.
@@crylec6534 oh im trying. But its pretty hard considering how ANNOYINGLY FAST THEY ARE. A Short range class like pyro needs something to slow thoose bastards down, because otherwise they can just run away and spam me with a pistol. The scorch shot is pefect for that. Besides, other classes habe weapons with similar stun/knockback mechanics, like natascha, the loose cannon, fucking sentries, rocket launchers, the force a nature and airblast. Why is it so bad if the scorch shot has it?
You mentioned bad teammates feeding the enemy free mmph. I can relate to this 100%. Usually the winning team in a pub game of tf2 is the one with more medics and if your 3 spies are feeding those medics free uber saw hits then there is no hope for you. I sweat, even on Uncletopia servers this is prevalent.
I remember using Phlog's taunt and Immediately as I start rushing in on the chokepoint in Frontier, someone Ubered me. The only thing stopping my rampage was a Wrangled Sentry pinning me down
@@dr_doritotf2305 10 kills, 3 dominations, wipe of a level 3 Dispenser and Teleporter The Engineer couldn't even avenge them because as I dropped from the sky, that same Med healed me as I'm retreating
I think we can all universally agree that the phlog is only a major problem when there's a pocket medic. Only seeing the pyro when they're ubercharged and under critz is just awful.
I'm pretty sure this has more to do with the power of Medic than the power of the Phlog. How many times has a Medic paired with a Demoman, Heavy or Soldier team wiped. I see it pretty constantly. Giving the Pyro the option to play like a close-ranged power class doesn't seem so bad in comparison.
Exactly, by themselves a phlog pyro is an easy kill. But with a pocket med they essentially get 2 different kinds of Uber that makes them literally unstoppable, as now even enemy pyros can’t airblast them away due to the high damage that Crit flames do.
Just to say that the Dragon's Fury is also extremely powerfull against the Phlog thanks to your boosted range and the fact that they can't airblast the fireball
6:43 And as LazyPurple has talked about - Every class does better when they catch people off-guard, so even then, it's nothing special Edit: What about changing the Phlog's taunt to one that can be easily heard? That way, good players get some warning to a potential phlog ambush
The phlog is so weird because its simoultaneously really, really bad, and insanely overpowered at the same time. I would disagree though, the phlog is probably the best gun to use with catching people off guard, especially with some overheal
I kinda like that actually, I’d make Pyros taunt when fully charged pretty loud and reverberating + maybe give it some sound electric effects to really sell the idea that there’s trouble around the corner and you should step back and wait for the Pyro to expose himself than blindly turn the corner I could see this turning the weapon into more of a intimidation tool, where you end up putting the enemy team on alert and make them hesitate wanting to push forward without a plan in the same spirit as a Spy somewhere or a Sniper waiting for them Still leaves the Phlog Uber really annoying, however
Buff the phlog. Give speed and give it full Uber during the thing, but make it require 5 kills to charge, and make it loud as hell when starting up. It wouldnt be a good balance change but itll be funny.
FSoaS, I wanted to say that you putting a time segment for your sponsor is singlehandedly the most pro-viewer sponsorship segment I’ve ever seen. Usually I just have to spam the “Forward 15 seconds” button and hope I manage to land right in between the sponsor and the rest of the video, but here you actually thought of the…well, me types. Really commendable.
@@susamogus8331 no,skipping sponsors does nothing,since they can't actually check if those were skipped,you can just see a median rate of lenght time before somebody dips out of the video in your stats,not individual sections. Use SponsorTube btw.
I really like that airblast idea for the phlog, would make it much more dynamic to play with but still retain the brainless aspect if that’s what floats your boat. Combined with a nerf / redesign to the scorch shot that doesn’t make it a detonator clone and I’ll be happy.
the only reason i want to keep the knockback on the scorch shot is because without it it's just the detonator, plus with the lack of knockback from airbalst you can't push demoknights or other stronger close range classes back, you need to keep the knockback on the Scorch shot, they should just make it destroy stickies (which you can't move with a phlog) have knockback (which you can't have with the phlog) and completely reduce everything else
Honestly that air blast meter is a really good idea, and if the phlog did mini crits instead of crits (like the buff banner) people would likely be a lot more happy (or at the very least tolerable). Also, that would help greatly with MVM where phlog pyros can still airblast back bots approaching the frontlines
I agree with the phlog turning pyro into an "ambusher" class, but i feel like its important to note that its not always 1 guy getting ambushed due to how flames work. A clumped team caught off guard turns into many piles of ashes.
I have another idea for retooling the Phlog: give it an airblast that deletes projectiles like the old Short Circuit, and make MMPH charge off of _that._
I had a idea that before the Delete ball was using the Delete Zapper function of the Short Circuit and now with the Delete Ball, a 65 ammo cost Zapper ball on the alt fire of the Phlog.
17:35 this is just PERFECT. Decision making is what phlog needs in the first place. It should help make a lot of mind games between the phlog and the enemy it’s facing
Love how you say it’s “annoying” that pyro doesn’t need to aim accurately, it’s totally not like they’re literally spraying lit fuel on you with an over-engineered metal hose
Burny fuel from fancy hose > stupid overengineered miniature incendiary explosive fired from a 40mm (presumably, as thats what it looks like to me.) launcher.
I honestly think that if the gas passer was actually usable it would pair really well with this. The idea of frantically running back and forth between covering the flanks as ambush pyro and throwing out supportive crowd control at the front line all while charging up your meter to prepare for a heavy offensive push sounds really fun
The idea of the plog being buffed with optional airblast seems good, but I feel it should be much easier to get airblasts and much harder to get crits, so that if you do pop crits, they are truly earned. To go with this even more, turn the weapon upside down and have *reflect* damage give a big boost in crits, meaning that a good airblast can actually gain mmph charge. That would seem like a really fun and much less toxic weapon.
@Crashie-J It’s not competitive players fault that Valve dropped the ball on trying to balance towards a more competitive environment. That’s like saying it’s your fault the chef completely charred your burger since you ordered the burger in the first place. It’s not even like they asked for it to be like that either.
@@OGSumo The needs of TF2's competitive which halves the class diversity and player numbers means that most balance changes to that group will break the balance for the larger casual community. It's like asking a car company to change their production line into entirely F1 cars when it doesn't fit well in urban highways or countryside roads.
@Crashie-J This hurts my eyes. My man out here saying competitive is the reason the weapons have been gutted, instead of trying to look at the company who messed up the balancing on the first place.
The backburner is probably my favorite flamethrower because it rewards you for playing the class as an ambush class without completely removing your supportive abilities.
the more cost airblast can actually be help to better at pyro becuase like the stock syringe gun with medic, it can a good training tool on using airblast properly, basically handicapping yourself to be better
I love in minute 14:17 where he's talking about the manmelter and extinguishing teammates, he has the plhog and the scorch shot, and has an ally spy dying to afterburn, and he let's him burn even tough he just killed a Pyro that had the backburner, and could have picked it up really quick for a fast extinguishing
Honestly I agree with you on this one. The Phlog is incredibly powerful, there's no doubt about that, but in trade for that power Pyro forsakes his greatest utility, airblast, which is simultaneously defensive, offensive, and supportive. Airblast is what makes Pyro powerful, since flame damage is so weak. The issue is the Scorchshot, which, on a single direct hit, outdamages the stock flaregun and ignites surrounding players, making it a direct upgrade to the Detonator despite having a lower skill floor.
Honestly I would not be so sure that Scorchshot is a direct upgrade to the Detonator. Scorchshot is definitely easier to use but in the right hands detonator can be just as good, or better. I do not claim to be a detonator expert, but I believe you can gain a lot from ability to explode your projectile in the air, especially against flying/highly mobile classes. My main source for this idea is this video made by Vorobey ruclips.net/video/s0Kx5ZBi_8U/видео.html
@@kirgizikable True enough, but as Fishstick himself said, the Scorch Shot rewards you a lot for a single hit. More damage than the stock flaregun, since it hits, then minicrits. That said, you are right that the Detonator is better for mobility (since you can detonate the flare at your feet), and since you can detonate the flare mid-air, you can hit targets that you would have otherwise missed entirely.
I love the Phlog. It’s one of the few sources of invulnerability in the whole game that isn’t the medic’s stock Uber, Bonk! Atomic Punch, or an Uber Canteen in mvm. You can use it to chase enemies away, or stuff rockets aimed at an engie nest, or make soldiers blow themselves up. A lot of people remember the phlog for the crits, but no one remembers the Uber. Yes you’re forced to stand still during it, but it’s still full invulnerability and that’s still something of value. If the scorch shot ever gets nerfed, hopefully people will begin to realize the real potential of the the phlog outside of mindlessly charging at enemies with the fire button held down. Okay so I just read that previous paragraph and realized the only thing the phlog does better than any flame thrower with airblast is scaring off players, and killing the ones that don’t respect your space. Still, it’s important to note that Pyro still has some counterplay to explosives based classes with the phlog, albeit more limited.
Would you rather: 1- charge up a meter for like 3 minutes before using it, and when used you're "invulnerable" while tauning (in quotes because being ubered doesnt prevent you from being juggled like a ballon by explosives or airblast) which forces you to stand still for 3 seconds JUST to MAYBE make soldiers blow themselves up, which it most likely wont happend because compitent sollies will just back up and wait to shoot you, and scare off enemies. 2- use airblast, which it can be used at any time, is instant, can reflect any projectile and when it does it makes it mini crit, so you can kill more than one enemy at once. Or use airblast to push enemies away and deny enemy Ubers. Or 3- use bonk which you can use instantly, use it to do everything the mmmmph taunt does but for longer and being able to move and thus not only make people blow themselves up but to also distract sentries so that your team can push and destroy it. Yeah phlog is only good for ambush, which is made difficult by the fact that pyro screams during his taunt, which makes enemies aware and check corners, and even then the backburner is better at that. Phlog is definitely pyros worst primary
@@JustinWHY-zz7gz The the Phlogistinator is a defensive tool tho. Literally any other flame thrower would be better for ambushing because they have airblast which lets pyro fight power classes WAY more effectively. As stated before, the Phlog is best at scaring off players and killing the ones that don’t respect your space. To maximize this effect, you need to be in a situation where the enemy is forced to come to you, ideally in a closed space. That said, I’ll concede that stock airblast is better in a majority of situations. Not being completely useless in open areas gives pyro way more freedom to roam around and pick fights.
@@SonicSlash51 uhmm... You do know that the airblast can just push away enemies with just a click right? Its a milion times better than to just scare off enemies. Scaring off enemies has never happened to me while phlog taunting, players always just stood there waiting for my taunt to end so that they could kill me. Phlog is only, and i mean ONLY good for ambushes
@@JustinWHY-zz7gz Yeah I suppose if you’re on your own enemies are unlikely to run far enough away, and even then some have no sense of self preservation. Taunting in front of someones face is kinda asking to die. Also yes I’m aware that stock airblast affects players, I just didn’t feel the need to bring it up because of course it does. If the enemy team starts getting too comfortable with projectile classes, I’ll bust out the stock flamethrower no problem. But if they’re lacking, I prefer the phlog.
I've found my favorite place to use the phlog really is MVM. It feels good to melt through robots like butter and it pairs very well with the exploding gas passer and uber canteens. I really don't like going into pubs without airblast though, really for the reason that I can't play the supportive pyro role. Not being able to extinguish teammates is the worst in my opinion.
Doesn't really apply that well I the Pyro has a pocket medic and just spams flares and comes out with the crits while under Uber and/or if their other teams its backing him up :c
@@awesomeheavendac That's true, but the thing about dealing with a Pyro like this is that you need yo get him before it gets you Without the team collaborating to at least push at the same time during the banner, all can come falling down really quick
I'd just like to say how much I absolutely LOVE your choice of music throughout this video. Donkey Kong Country 2 has a special place in my heart, and it's soundtrack never fails to fill me with an unparalleled amount of nostalgic joy.
It’s easy to get a kill with W+M1, but usually it’s just one or two out of a large group and it’s from afterburn post-death. Usually also contributes a net zero to the group because you die as well and it’s likely that if you’re doing W+M1 your only contribution is a rare kill when a group is pushing and not doing the most to the push as a whole.
it’s funny cause the phlog is unironically the worst flamethrower because of the lack of air blast Edit: let me explain. The medics core part of him is healing. That’s the reason the medic exists, to heal. All his mediguns heal at the same rate, and the side grades all have the basic gimmick of overheal and ubercharge. The one that strays the most from it is the quick fix, but it has an exception. Because the medic still does his job, healing, and at a faster rate, the overheal penalty is justified because of how fast you heal people. And also, the player isn’t in a life threatening situation where they *need* overheal. The medic is healing them anyway at faster rate than stock, the patient should be fine usually if they’re retreating. Even then, you still get a noticeable overheal buff on higher health classes like soldier and heavy. It’s not much, but it’s definitely still overheal. Moving on to the phlog, comparing this to the quickfix, just…doesn’t work. Flames aren’t they only thing pyro is. Pyro isn’t just for wm1 spam and death. If I’m honest, pyro has more defense and support than he does offense. Taking away that defense and support and merging it into the offense sounds great! Except there’s a problem. Unlike the quick fix, instead of just neutering it, you completely remove it. The dragons fury is another offense pyro flamethrower and it does it very well! The offensive capabilities it give let you rush down enemies extremely quickly and mow down groups super fast with your damage buff. You still have airblast, but if you use it In a fight your basically dead since your primary takes like 3 years to recharge. WHen you’re out of combat, you can definitely use it to help your team doused in flames, or get rid of some rocket spam while capping or pushing a cart. But the phlog just…doesn’t have any of it. And I’m not factoring in melees or secondaries. What if you have your jetpack or shotgun? How do you charge your mmph at all without a flare gun? How do you help your team without the mannmelter? The only thing you could probably do is use thruster with homewrecker, but…why would you extinguish teammates with the thruster. The homewrecker is okay, I guess. The sick dopamein rush you get from crits is invalidated by no dopamein rush from airblast. LazyPurple basically PERFECTLY summarized the phlog in his video, “The only team you’ll be crushing is a team you’d be crushing anyway with airblast” i also like how valve thought that 750 damage for some after burn damage is justified at the same balance as 300 damage for 10 seconds of crits
A medic and a phlog pyro really are the worst. Especially on dustbowl's last cap, my team got killed by ONE pyro + med combo and we couldn't leave spawn, three times.
I legit had that same idea for a Phlog buff for months now. I never mentioned it because I felt it would go against the core mechanics of the weapon, but honestly, now I just think it would be a pretty fair change.
In the Balancemod, we've seen zero change in how the phlog is used after the change. It's still as effective and as deadly as before. Just now more players on the opposing team to the phlog pyro knows there's a phlog pyro. Official Phlog version: Scenario: I run flame thrower and detonator, and spam flares all game and light enemies on fire. They have seen me run the flamethrower and know it's not a phlog. I then switch to phlog, conceal it and spam flares the same way, and suddenly I have guaranteed crits around the corner with a pocket medic with uber. With the phlog change, at least some of the enemy team will know there's a phlog pyro and make better game decisions based on that. Basically I can sit back and use my teammates as sandbags while I farm my phlog, basically making my team's member count -1, making them do worse in overall engagements since all I'm doing is sitting back and mindlessly spamming flare, not contributing anything to the fight. Then when all my teammates are dead I then punish the now pushing team with guaranteed crits that they had no idea of know was there or coming. With the balancemod change. the pyro can't just farm bad players, this is most prevalent in games where there's more coordination than in your average casual game. No longer can a phlog pyro seemingly appear out of no where with a full charge without any commitment that also hurts the team they are on. What you are saying about the combo things doesn't really make sense to me. It wouldn't discourage pyros from using their secondaries, since pyro's mid and long range pressure is still bad, and you are no longer locked to a flaregun to get the most out of the phlog, which means you can now combo as you see fit with any weapon of your choice. Getting a phlog charge is still really easy, you just can't have a safe, noncommital way of getting the charge anymore. Since the reward compared to the risk was favoring the reward too much if done right. Also if you have any suggestions that want to be taken seriously you should post them in our discord.
I'll be honest, I find it a bit hard to believe that the Phlog is being used the same as it was before when flare spam isn't an option for charging anymore. I also have a small bit of contention with the idea of using any other flamethrower for most of the round, then switching to the Phlog as a surprise tactic. If you've seen that often enough to the point where it becomes an issue, then that's fair, I'm not the one running the server here, but I've never seen that sort of behavior once. But my main issue with this comes from the fact that the Phlog is incredibly ostentatious. With the taunt, the laugh, the Ubered Pyro and the glowing effect, it's kind of hard to miss, and players who don't retreat upon hearing or seeing this stimuli should rightly be punished for sticking around. If they're far enough away that they can't hear the effects, then they should be safe to run away from the class with highly limited range, even if he is Ubered, and if he's not Ubered, he's still as vulnerable as any Phlog Pyro, crit charge or otherwise. I understand that it may be easy to misinterpret the laugh from the taunt as one of Pyro's default domination sound effects, but then the simple solution there is to give the Phlog taunt a more unique or distinctive sound effect that's impossible to miss, and one that can't be cancelled out of mid-taunt by using a voice line. And if farming bad players is a genuine concern, then you're going to need to cast a much wider net than one flamethrower, because the Soldier banners, Air Strike, Eyelander, KGB, Frontier Justice, Ubersaw, Carbine, Diamondback and Kunai are going to need some changes too if that's the case. I've seen far more devastating Kunai Spies and Eyelander Demos than I have Phlog Pyros in my time, and their effects for farming bad players are far more immediate and difficult to punish compared to the Phlog. And honestly, being a flamethrower that's restricted to just W+M1 means bad players are just about the only people it can kill consistently, since those are the players most vulnerable to it, so yes, it's still farming bad players. It's just forced to do that in a more brainless way instead of being allowed to be tactical at all. My point with the combos is that Pyro's mediocre damage output, average speed and lack of mobility, means in a close range fight, he may need to get a combo off in order to secure a kill, and the Phlog, with the flare guns, enhances that effect by not only getting a kill, but also giving you charge. By removing the charge from the equation, all the Pyro can do is waste opportunity to get charge in exchange for getting the kill quickly and safely, which just makes getting the charge up even more of a slog than it already is. It feels like it would encourage completely passive behavior, but instead of flares it's a flamethrower, or else an extreme hit and run playstyle where you let afterburn do all the work. Believe me, I'm not a fan of being on the other end of a flare fairy, but this change punishes Pyros who are aggressive with their flares just as much as it does those who are passive with them. In the vast majority of situations, you'd be better off using any other flamethrower, and in my eyes, it actually encourages pocketing even more than it did before because now you have to run at people if you want to get the charge consistently. On paper that seems fine because the Phlog is really strong on paper, but it means for 90% of the match, you just have a worse stock flamethrower, completely unable to support your team unless you're using the Manmelter, which now gives the Phlog no other benefit and removes that degree of synergy that it previously had. The reason I brought up using the Shotguns with the Phlog is that it's painful to get your charge up playing this way, and this change makes it the exact same as that. I'm not saying getting the charge should be easy or trivial, but making it painful on a weapon that's so harshly limited as it stands to the point where it really needs the crits to contend with the sheer utility of airblast at all, and also needs a highly coordinated pocket Medic on top of that, feels like a misstep.
i know i dont like being on the other end of the flare fairy but all that this is doing is punishing pyros who are aggressive with their flares and farming bad players in a more brainless way instead of being tactical it encourages more pocketing even more then before without a medic pocketing you just have a worse stock flamethrower that unable to support your team unless you're using the Manmelter which you removed the synergy that it had by the way why cant you just i don't know nerf the scorch shot some more also if farming bad players is a concern then you might want to cast a bigger net to the eyelander bazaar bargin diamondback kunai if that was the case
How about expanding the idea of using mmmmmph meter for airblast and nerfing its airblast to only delete projectile rather than reflecting it. Then when the meter is full, use G or R to activate mmmmmmph.
I remembered trying out the phlog contract and it was extremly awful (I use stock on a regular basis), without the scorch shot or pocket medic you barely can get your charge, and since killing people with flares and their afterburn didnt count for the kill count, you had to avoid using them at all; on top of that killing someone via afterburn after you died also doesn't count, despite the fact that the developers themself reconigzed that pyro's rol is to damage enemies even if his not strong enough to kill them by himself; and of course the few times I activated the charge, everyone recognized that simply getting away was the best strat against you, it was so awful that I stopped playing pyro for a whole week even without completing the contract at 100% And of course using the phlog was the most boring experience I had since my era of turtle engie.
You just reminded me of when I chose that contract as a newer player. I thought to myself “I am not sure if I am skilled enough to do the other two options, so I will go with the one everyone calls OP, that way I can be done and over with it.” I had no idea how painfully boring the grind would be, dying over and over to my inability to do anything other than wm1. Eventually I got to farm kills on a ctf double cross server when me and the other guy were the only two left. I now have the australium contracker, but boy was it hard to get. My knowledge of the game has improved, so if I could go back, I would definitely take the other two options. I think they were soda popper and direct hit. Even if you are a new guy, please don’t do the phlog contract. Please.
I think the Phlog should have a unique airblast. Think "weaker push force" that only destroys projectiles, but has the benefit of lighting whoever you airblast on fire, making combos easier
Phlog, jetpack, and a pocket quickfix medic. Jump past the enemy team. Burn their butts. This is the optimal way to use the phlog. Its my noise marine load out
Thank you, I have always struggled to explain that the problem with the phlog being unfun to play against wasn't inherently the phlog's fault but rather the scorch shot's, thank you for making a video about it :]
I’m not technically a representative of the balancemod but please for the love of god join our discord server. There is no balance team. It’s just GPS deciding what happens and the best the community can do is come forward as a group with ideas. Recently we’ve been starting server wide discord calls to discuss the overall opinions on changes
phew i thought you were about to praise higps's balancemod for a minute there, there's a good reason nobody fuckin plays it. in my eyes, it's because it makes a ton of very questionable balance decisions under the guise of being the ideal balance for the game with the very name "balancemod". (-7% quickscope damage ftw)
@@quidquid1476 Wait, they didn't nerf the goddamn Wrangler out of everything in the game? ...Now I can see why nobody takes the balance patch seriously
Exactly. Most of the balance changes I don't like (the Eyelander was nerfed, not because it needed to be in the base game, but because the "balances" for the shields made it overpowered, as well as removing the swap speed of the Panic Attack AKA one of the main selling points instead of just fixing the bugs related to it, and it makes the Warrior's Spirit way too good by just giving it a 20% slower deploy speed and no other downsides, effectively NERFS THE OVERDOSE by giving you a -20 health, etc), and the ones I do like feel so minor that there's no reason to play it over casual or uncletopia. Many of the weapons it nerfs hits them in a way that makes them nearly useless, but some nerfs do literally nothing to fix actually broken weapons like the Wrangler and the Scorch Shit. The mod feels like it's meant to make stock 100% the best in nearly all situations instead of it being an all-rounder.
The folks at balancemod need to stop thinking like players and start thinking like developers. They're creating a product for other people. They need to interview members of their audience, understand what could be improved in base TF2, and seek to do so. Not just tack on random buffs willy-nilly.
I'd say the Phlog is perfectly balanced. A crippling downside in exchange for incredible upside. A phlog pyro without kritz is literally the worst, most vulnerable class in the game.
Detonator Phlog can actually be a really fun combo once you get good at it. Getting a charge off a few well timed detonations and then rocketing yourself at the enemy team with full crits is bar none the most satisfying playstyle for the phlog in my opinion
Yeah. I always used the Pyro sidegrades with airblast but after only using the phlog in MvM I decided to try it in casual by using the detonator to get charge and kill people. Pretty interesting.I agree with a lot of fish's points, but canceling the animation while on a certain entity is really fun in MvM, and it takes a lot more skill to pull off in casual because you need to land on a guy's head, I think the Pyro deserves that.
8:58 This statement almost implies, that there's no tactical decision making, behind an ambush. It's almost like saying that Spy is unfair, because he can instantly kill you and your friends.
That's not really what I'm saying, I'm saying that in the situations where W-M1 is most effective, it's usually during an ambush which is annoying to fight against because you have no idea it's coming. That's just the nature of an ambush. It's annoying to get killed by a Spy in a similar fashion, but neither of these are overpowered or lacking in tactics.
3:53 I miss when you could mess around with the guys on the other side but now 90% of the time it’s just some f2p pyro sitting on the other end trying to do the cool thing with the spawn doors they saw in a video.
Hot take: Phlog isn't even Pyro's best flamethrower in MvM, I've done more total damage with the Dragon's Fury. Also my suggestion for the Phlog would be to give it basically what you suggested for the Manmelter: a pseudo-airblast that only disintegrates projectiles instead of sending them back, and that's how you charge your MMMPH (which would now be activated with reload or whatever).
Okay, okay, hear me out on this one: the Phlog is changed to disintegrate projectiles with the same timing as the airblast; whatever an airblast reflects is just destroyed by the Phlog instead, so the player can still somewhat mitigate explosives, but not return them to sender. This is essentially the airblast version of the Short Circuit, but obviously not bullshit because it's not a "fuck you" ball and you can still catch the pyro with proper timing. Mmph still exists and maybe gets changed to mini-crits because nobody likes easy team wipes and ubered+critted pyros, and it could even not recharge on afterburn, which then opens the way for the Mannmelter combo: - The Phlog will not extinguish teammates, but still can deny projectiles like an airblast, while giving reason for a Kritzkrieg medic to exist if nerfed to mini-crits and nulling the Scorch Shot synergy with the removal of afterburn filling. - The Mannmelter will extinguish teammates and have the highest burst damage *with the Phlog* of all flare guns, encouraging the pyro to extinguish teammates to refill the Phlog at longer ranges and use a flare gun that requires aim. - The Third Degree gets buffed to deal +100% melee damage, +100% building damage, swings cause a map-wide wall of fire and crits apply to the entire enemy team; whoever's dead by the time the crit happens will get critted as soon as they spawn. A downside to removing afterburn fill, of course, is that the Gas Passer becomes even more of an ass passer than it already is... which literally every player wouldn't care about because the weapon is already so underwhelming, nobody uses it anyway.
Maybe instead of the airblast, the 4 mini-bars could allow the phlog to generate a small black hole or void looking thing that just consumes a projectile or afterburn and doesn't reflect it.
Lazy purple said it best: "Yes, playing with the Phlog is really fun but do you know how many problems airblast solves for the Pyro?" I completely agree, while the guaranteed critical hit mechanic can win games and get you killstreak but at the end of the day, airblast is one of the most powerful thing in the Pyro's disposal and always will be.
a potential balance idea for it would be to have something like the quick fix effect where your health rapidly regenerates but damage goes from crits to mini crits so you are able to rush in and survive while also dealing a good chunk of damage. and yeah nerf the scorch.
I wouldn’t say you need a pocket when it comes to phlog. Good map knowledge and knowing where health kits are will generally sustain you if you don’t mind a quick detour, which can honestly help sometimes
As a phlog Pyro, I love to combo it with the scorch shot. It feels rewarding being able to do damage at long range, and the phlog makes me feel like a glass cannon, able to do a great amount of damage at close range, but still extremely vulnerable to everyone around me
Everyone should be thankful for every brainless W+M1 pyro they see. If they're rushing at you like that, it means they're NOT ambushing you, disabling your sticky traps, or turning all your projectiles against you. Scariest shit I've ever seen from a good pyro was one of them jumping into the air, airblasting STRAIGHT DOWN on a soldier's rocket, and rocket jumping onto the 2Fort battlements to send a couple snipers to the shadow realm.
I swear, people actively look for things to complain about when it comes to this weapon. In reality, what ever you can do with Phlog, Stock/Degreaser can do it better and more efficiently.
I gotta say, the phlog is the perfect tool to counter over confident pocketed players if you're good at ambushing. Phlog isn't as bad as people claim it is.
Eh. Some say Phlog is overpowered. I say - unless the Pyro actually ambushed you, you got no excuse to not pump their face full of lead or sticky bomb them, or headshot them, or blast them with a rocket, _or anything_
@@ARandomSpace solution: improve awareness, against spy and constantly spy check every possible spy hiding spot. When within the sight line of snipers try to move erratically by crouching, jumping, and moving side to side as much as you can, or try to avoid their line of sight. If you playing soldier or demo try to counter snipe them with the sticky or rocket to lessen their aim
@@mostdefinitelynotadurian Issue 3: I can't spycheck if I'm being murdered by spies or snipers while attempting to spycheck. Issue 4: I can't move erratically to avoid snipers or shoot at sniper hiding spots if the snipers and spies keep killing me before I can react.
People hate spam no matter what but the scorch shot can make the phlog super powerful and the demo can't get free crits from spam unless is random crits
Finally someone said it, I’ve always thought the Phlog was way too overrated and underpowered. Its always felt like a handicap to play with it, but for some reason people kept complaining and saying it was overpowered. But no it’s not that the Phlog is overpowered, it’s that the Scorch Shot is overpowered and makes up for any weakness any of the weapons have, especially the Phlog. I like your idea for a balance change for the weapon, however I had the idea of increasing the damage threshold for Mmph by a hundred or so, maybe two. But making it so you can build it up with all types of damage. Or maybe keeping the cap the same, but not allowing burn damage to count towards it. It would also be a good idea to add a airblast since you kind of need one for Pyro as a whole. But I was thinking, what if instead of an airblast we added the old Short Circuit secondary fire action? It would only work in a limited area and use some of your meter. But in exchange for some of your meter you can destroy enemy projectiles, and extinguish burning players. I was even thinking of redesigning the weapon as a whole, so what if instead of it being focused on burst damage, it took on more of a support role? What if instead of simply extinguishing burning players and destroying projectiles, it also allowed you to get rid of debuffs? I think it would really work well, but I suppose for that to be the case, it would have to be one or the other. I think allowing it to destroy projectiles and debuffs would be a little OP, either way you should still be able to extinguish teammates. And maybe since you’re using your meter what if instead of health on extinguish/ debuff removal/ projectile deletion, you got some ammo back. It would make it easier to use and more helpful over all since with more ammo you can get more meter which in tern allows you to assist your teammates more effectively. I’m thinking we make the Phlog a support tool and the crits, a last resort. And while increasing the amount needed to fill the meter, you also have more mini meters to use allowing you to work more effectively as a support. Another idea I had was instead of focusing on support, what if we tried to fix a problem that comes with the weapon. What if instead of the meter giving you crits, it gave you a ball of energy like the Short Circuit? When using Mouse 2, and with a full mini meter charge, you are able to shoot out a ball of energy which will act like a slightly larger Detonator shot, but it’s much slower probably about the speed of one of Soldiers rockets. It won’t destroy projectiles, but it will set enemies ablaze, and it can allow you to Detonator jump a little higher, not too much maybe slightly lower than Soldier’s rocket jump. And if you fully charge the meter you can choose to either shoot a normal Detonator ball, or a charged ball which would fly a little faster and go a litter further and have a bigger detonation area, but that’s about it. It would work great for attacking a choke point, but you would have to both aim and time it properly to get the most out of it, you can’t just spam it all willy nilly if you want to actually be effective. I have a few other ideas but I think this gets my point across, I see a lot of potential in this weapon, and how it could pair up with the other weapons in it’s set. I’ve always had a soft spot for the Manmelter and Phlog which is why I use them together every now and then, kind of reminds me of Pyromania back in the day. But anyway if anyone has any other suggestions feel free to add theme, I don’t think these ideas are perfect and of course would need a lot of fine tuning, but I think the Phlog If done right could possibly turn into one of the best weapons in Pyro’s arsenal. And more importantly be seen as a weapon the community loves, rather than hates due to the fault of another weapon that breaks the two of them in certain scenarios.
That sounds pretty good, giving Plog the ability to delete projectiles, so you aren't completely gimped, but you aren't dealing damage back. It's certainly a buff against sticky traps, though. And since it's not airblast, you'll still have a reason to carry the Manmelter around to extinguish teammates. I will say, you shouldn't be able to alt fire when you get's ctitz, that seems a bit TOO much. And if you can't alt fire while critz, just make the delete area just take ammo instead of meter. It's certainly better than no airblast, but is mostly inferior to actual airblast, so I don't think there should be a reason it uses up meter to pull it off over just using ammo. If it's too powerful just make it use a fuck ton of ammo like how the Backburner is. You aren't completely gimped, but still noticeably crippled.
@@daddysempaichan I was thinking you can alt fire with crits, but in return for using alt fire you lose the crits, or if you just barely activated it you use half of the meter so you only have a few seconds to use crits.
@@zekromfan1 I kind of get it, but I think most people would just not use the airblast at that point. Like, if you were going to airblast, why not just use the other flamethrowers at that point? If you really wanted that then I'll suggest the airblast be buffed to a disintegration field, where enemies caught in the field to take damage and get set on fire, as to make the tradeoff of using the meter(and delaying your on demand crits farther back) to be better and worthwhile. It'll also make using the Phlog more intresting during the times between the crits, and perhaps allows the Pyro to ignore the crits aspect entirely and just focus on the different airblast.
@@daddysempaichan I mean I understand that part, but I think it’s important to try and keep the crits if at all possible. But the issue arises in how the crits and disintegration field would be balanced together, if they were together that is. Maybe don’t have the field be tied to the meter, but instead on a cool down, but then it’s less about skill and more about timing. And I want it to be more of a reward for playing well, since If you could just spam it without worrying about ammo or meter usage, I feel it would be overpowered in many situations. The problem comes though with, what do you do when you have a full set of meters? If you want to create a disintegration field instead of using crits, how would you do that? I figured that maybe you should hold the button down or cancel out of the crits in order to use it. But again how would that effect balancing, and would that break the weapon. I feel like keeping the crits is an important part of the Pholg’s identity, but maybe for a rework it would just be better to ditch it all together. Maybe instead of crits, we merge the two ideas and instead shoot out a charged detonation blast at full meter which would act as a long range disintegration field with medium damage, and a quick projectile speed. But the problem I see with getting rid of the crits is how the weapon set was designed, the Phlog and Manmelter both get crits after certain conditions are met with alt fire. Well I suppose that isn’t really a problem, but I feel like they ought to compliment one another a little. So maybe don’t allow the Phlog to extinguish allies and instead leave that to the Manmelter, while the Phlog deals with enemy projectiles and at full meter it sends out a projectile of its own. Maybe upon deleting a projectile you gain mini crits for a few seconds instead? So you still get crits, but you have to time it right in order for them to be effective, and if you use the crits right you can fill the meter faster which would allow you to gain more crits. So instead of storing crits like the Manmelter or the current Phlog, you earn them when deleting projectiles which would make a push a little easier, and would also still keep Demos and Soldiers second guessing whether or not they should fire at you. Maybe the Phlog should be a bigger yet different Manmelter in that sense. The two of them compliment one another a little better, and the Manmelter is no longer mostly useless. But I suppose the Manmelter would need a slight buff, so what if it had a mini disintegration field which would take any debuffs your allies have and convert them into crits/mini crits? It won’t work on projectiles since that’s what the Phlog does, but instead it works on debuffs/fire. So the Manmelter becomes a better support tool, with the added benefit of being able to deal out alright damaged and quick bursts of high damage if you manage everything right. I can see a Phlog Manamelter combo working really well and being used as a support and defensive push option. It would also pair really well with the Homewrecker or Neon Annihilator. I would like to say the Third Degree, but that weapon would need its own rebalancing if it were to work well. Maybe have it work kind of like the aforementioned weapons in allowing you to destroy sappers, or maybe given what it’s like, what if it allows you to repair buildings with the metal pool every class has? You can’t upgrade them, but you can repair them, it would of course repair slower than the Jag, but it could still work to help an Engie out of a jam. It wouldn’t be able to destroy sappers though, the Homewrecker/ Neon Annihilator would still be needed for that. Maybe in turn it would do less damage to enemy buildings and have a slightly slower swing speed, but when you hit enemies it does a little more damage than stock but not much, and at the cost of pushing them back a little, kind of the like the Shovestop, but not as far. Oh and it wouldn’t be able to random Crit, this way it isn’t so dependent on needing there to be an enemy Medic, and it won’t be as situational as the original version of the weapon is. Tell me what you think, because I’m thinking that this set could turn into a sub-class and actually make Pybros a thing more than just a joke. It would turn an ambush class into a support class which can deal damage, but you need to focus on your team in order to get the most out of it. I think this idea has a lot of potential, if you have anything to add please feel free to do so.
![[TF2] The Dragon's Fury: The Anti-Flamethrower](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eAv_1tCzQYg/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Dragon's Fury: The Anti-Flamethrower](/img/tr.png)
![[TF2] In Defense Of The Dalokohs Bar](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jN_NrkjxruA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Best Sniper Rifle](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hLi0V-onuhA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] The Power of the Pistol](/img/1.gif)
Use this link to download Opera GX for free: operagx.gg/FishStickOnAStick-Gaming
Yes sir!
Do you guys know who owns opera GX?
@@legendarylinc0762 I mean do you know the source code owner
No
@@bigfennec
its owned by a Chinese business
The sticky trap rant is more fitting when you realize it was a rage-inducing sticky launcher
"Didn't ye see the bloody bombs?"
Can't wait to hear his complains on Natasha.
@@gottagofastfaster Ahem
"The spin up speed is countered by the damage resistance. The damage resistance isn't too bad on a fast firing weapon, and the speed reduction essentially gives Natasha a stronger accuracy boost than Tomislav at close range, but perhaps weaker at long range as the speed reduction is affected by damage falloff.
The Heavy has three main counters:
1. Sniper
2. Spy
3. Rushing the Heavy with a shotgun when he is distracted and/or spinning up, and dodging the shots.
The Natasha almost nullifies the last counter while it's upsides counteract it's downsides. So in a way, it's an upgrade from Stock, and even Tomislav can't claim completely destroying Scout, one of the strongest classes in the game."
Is probably what he would say
@@Breakaway-ic5gj natasha is overpowered because it has a more cool looking killfeed icon
@@Breakaway-ic5gj reverse the natasha, instead of making enemies slow, it makes you fast
Well damn, Dr. Doofenshmirtz’s really stepping up his game here. Wonder what the convoluted tragic childhood backstory he has with the Phlogistinator.
Probably was his first sunburn
@@db_gaming277 perhaps
"When I was a child in Gimmelshtump, I always wanted to go to the beach, but my parents never let me, because I needed to guard the house as a gnome (you remember that story, right?) A-anyways, one day, I had enough and snuck out of the house, visiting the Sonnenbrand beach. However, I ended up staying there too long and got a bad sunburn. The sunburn itself was bad enough, but when I got back, everyone made fun of me, especially my "perfect" brother Roger. From that day on, I swore that I would take my revenge on the sun that cursed me, and I came up with this invention: THE PHLOGIST-INATOR! This ingenious device, steals the sun's rays and shoots them at anyone in front of it, and with it, I'll give everyone in the Tri-State Area massive sunburns, and then......well, I don't really know. I didn't plan that far ahead."
@@LightSoul-8 I'm convinced that's canonical
His home burnt to the ground by a pyromain
Alternate title: Fish finds another opportunity to complain about the scorch shot (good ending)
If he makes a demknight vid he’s gonna bring up scorch shot again i just know it
Edit: demoknight*
Pft no, far range splash flames damage is balanced
@@Enigmatony That's... an interesting concept, actually. Either have the single target knockback, or a reduced damage aoe
@@Enigmatony that could be interesting altough I really doubt valve would ever implement such a drastic change, not at this point
Honestly his complaining was way more reasonable in this video, and I didn't even mind it in his others.
He's clearly learned that people find it obnoxious when he complains without the appropriate context.
3:43 - Seeing a Demoknight get out-axed by a Pyro with the SVF nearly made me die laughing.
R.i.p
Most intelligent skull cuter demo
It was a random crit.
@@fleshdadbot6852 Yeah, I saw it, what about it?
@@metaridley2911 nothing, i guess that the fact it was a random crit makes it funnier, plus, judging by how a single svf killed a demoknight, i'm assuming said demoknight was getting away from a fight he got hurt in before getting a crit axe to the jugular..or maybe i'm wrong, i don't really remenber how much damage the svf does.
17:13 That soldier buffing the pyro's speed watching him kill the entire enemy team must feel proud
Lol
“Go, commit a crime”
The fact that the balancemod nerfed this thing really goes to show you that you can't just do everything the community yells out and think the end result is an improvement
The Phlogchamp is an example of a weapon where trickle-down balancing just doesn't work. It's bullshit "I spam scorch shit and then run in only when I have my win button" in pubs, and "I get my shit pushed in" in comps
@@josefl.2053 I disagree. Never used it, don't even have it to get an understanding. Honestly balancing could very well work, it's just possible no one's got a clue what that could be.
My idea:
Phlogistinator
*Fires gas
When enemies are coated by the gas:
+Set on fire
+Jarate effect
+Airblast ammo
-Does not shoot fire, therefore can't actually do any damage on its own aside from Afterburn
-50% less ammo for the gas
*You or your teammates doing damage to enemies coated with gas, the afterburn damage, and reflect damage counts towards the Mmmmph meter, which when activated allows you to shoot critical fire.
*Doing fire damage with other means such as the Scorch Shot would not fill the Mmmmph meter
@@nexuslord6831 "never used it"
You're obviously one those that have no clue on how to balance it so your point is already invalid.
@@zuhdibeyblade9 Ok. What would you do to balance it?
Can we appreciate that fsoas puts a sponsor segment so you know exactly how long it will be?
Makes it easier to skip too lol
truly a man of the people
Lots of people do that
But also everyone who does it is a Chad
Could we appreciate it if RUclips when back to how it used to be where there where no sponsors and everyone did RUclips for fun?
@@humankerbal3623 there’s only so many times I can go to the zoo
So lazy was right, “The only team you’re going to be stomping without airblast is a team you’re already stomping
a youtuber who reviews trading card games introduced to me the concept of cards (or in this case weapons) that help you "win more".
essentially it refers to seemingly good tools in your arsenal that only come in handy when you're already winning, so they're actually kinda useless.
the phlog is exactly that.
There is a spy in this comment section
@@windhelmguard5295 if you play Smite, a good example would be the Bloodforge, an item for physical characters that gives you a health shield upon getting a kill. While this is good, and can help you escape after getting a pick, if you aren't already getting kills, it isn't going to exactly help.
@@windhelmguard5295 Today on TheFortLogs, the top ten TF2 weapons with alliterative names.
@@abdalln8554 lmao
The “didn’t you see the bloody bombs” bit really made me laugh. Thanks, i needed that.
11:45 you can almost see how much he wanted to air blast those rocket
The sheer dopamine of reflecting crit rockets at a soldier and his medic
7:23 oh that
it came from an ideia someone had when jungle inferno came out
the flamethrower was updated to increase its range depending on your speed, someone thought "if you could build up infinite speed would u get infinite range?"
people knew for a long time that if you were stuck you kept speed, so now the question is "where can i get stuck and still attack?"
people found out the cone on frontier had collisions for some reason, so you could bring that cone to your desired location and build up speed from there AND it was small enough that you could attack with the flamethrower
LOL thats genius!
@Abic
how but this for a idea for a flame thrower
it would more range BUT
deals less damage the closer you are to the target
@@chongwillson972 the fury already has close to double the range of other flamethrowers and does more damage in exchange for requiring aim
your idea is redundant and shit
@@disgustingg
yeah but the dragon fury is shit weapon
and is better used when your closer to your target
but my idea would require the pyro not to WM1 and to use their other tools like airblasting to push the target to the sweet spot of the flamethrower...
@@chongwillson972 the dragon's fury isn't shit just cause you can't spam airblast like a chimp
just aim 4head
"Limiting it's play style"
Heavy mains : why yes. Tell me more.
Have you tried running Natasha, family business and eviction notice? Can really mess up spies and scouts with it ... Better if you have a medic
@@yeoldchief7711 you don't need all three. That's just overkill
@@seokkyunhong8812 no, all 3 is funny
@@750tiprogamer not at all, you get no benefit switching them, nor are they passively benefiting you while holstered.
Any one of them will be good enough deterrent to spies and scouts.
@@yeoldchief7711 I’d totally agree if the eviction notice didn’t have that atrocious life drain.
I've always seen the Phlogistinator as a specialized tool for breaking through heavily-defended tight spaces and pushing the enemy back enough to establish a foothold. Sort of like a chokepoint plunger, removing annoying clogs of enemies so your team can finally flush their way through.
What if they managed to make it look like a toilet brush
So for Dustbowl
@@goon5665 it kinda looks like a plunger if you squint real hard
Are you saying the teammates are shit.
@@vonwolfe1310 yes
"outside of flamethrower range, pyro loses to everything"
Me with dragons fury and scorch shot: *PATHETIC*
"...I am Death.
*Straight.*
*Up.* "
Even that has a hard cap
@@loganstewart7105 and that's why I always keep a flare gun in hand
It's still true though, your range is just increased 🤓
Honestly this is the one based way of using scorch shot. Dragons fury combos ftw
I remember seeing an idea of giving the Phlog a projectile-deleting airblast similar to the Short Circuit, but I like the more dynamic idea of dividing the Phlog meter into 4 charges and being able to airblast. It’s kinda like in fighting games and choosing whether to use a low or high level super attack (I.e level 1 or 3 supers in DBFZ)
So 75 dmg for a single... Shield pulse? That deletes projectiles. Cool
Shield pulse sounds right. Maybe 450 damage for one Phlog charge and 150 damage to use the pulse.
So making phlog even more op
@joshuaadyel you are wasting your phlog meter and also not actually reflecting the projectile, making you a target for other players, and looking at nimbus' idea, you would need half of phlogs current meter requirement for a single airblast
Remember when the phlog used to fully heal the user once they used the meter, yeah… good times
the extra 0.5 seconds of the uber effect
the no damage falloff
the full heal
that was a fucking monster
There was a time when it gived you Uber the whole MMMPH charge too, then they reduces to a few moments after initial taunt and, nowdays, only gives Uber while taunting
Tbh that was more balanced that the Uber since the Uber is exploitable.
@@abicto and people still had the audacity to be all “PHLOG ISNT EVEN GOOD!”
@@metalslug55516 There are bugs you can use to move while the uber effect is active.
The lack of air blast really, really hurts this weapon. Still really fun to use though, if you feel like being a backstabbing asshole but don't want to equip the Backburner. Also it's really fun to just shut down parts of a push if you happen to have crits ready.
i particularly like the backburner, but not as a pure ambush. if you have the detonator, you can almost trickburn with it by jumping over someone and flipping around in the air. it's super tough to do, but is soooooo satisfying.
@@gagamer7251 Oh it's absolutely great as a general trick weapon because you can go from being out of position to winning an engagement with a little work. But the phlog works better as a combination of pure ambush and push breaker/maker. For the same reason as the Kritzkrieg, actually.
@@gagamer7251 Trickstabing? Nah, we trickburn.
if the Phlog could do Minicrits in Casual for the ability to have the Short Circuit Delete Ball that costs 65 ammo per use, how would that affect things? I would also add 50HP on Mppph activation that COULD overheal, but my priority for the Phlog is Deleteball ability feedback.
also, Short circuit primary fire at least needs "get metal on hit" to have any point to having it IMO. thoughts on this as well?
@@drivanradosivic1357 trash suggestion
mini-crits are basically nothing on flamethrowers compared to crits
Phlog + Detonator is wild
You get mobility, ranged afterburn, and you can cancel the start up of the taunt by jumping on top of a moving opponent's head
And SO many sweaty tryhards absolutely loathe this loadout. It's a good time
I prefer detonator with the phlog. When people run away from the phlogs crits without injury, it's very disheartening to see your meter slowly dwindle without causing the pain and suffering you've waited so long to achieve. But with the detonator, you can close that gap much easier!
You can also go full evil by launching yourself on top of an enemy's head and then starting your phlog taunt. When your enemy moves out from underneath you, you fall down and this cancels the taunt animation. You have about a second of free uber AND you get more time to use your crits (because you bypass the taunt animation which uses up some of the meter)
ruclips.net/video/OTZC6xAxlec/видео.html
Using the phlog + manmelter
would be better like he said so you can still support your team and the manmelter rewards you with crits for supporting teammates on fire.
Maybe if you use the phlog with the stock shotgun and homewrecker/maul you can become the ultimate pybro
@@eedefeed but das what he said
I am a pyro main and I had my thoughts for the Scorch Shot:
-Keep stun and sticky destruction
-Nerf damage and afterburn duration to a significant amount to the point you rarely get kills.
-Remove Minicrits
This transforms the gun into a utility and disruption that pyro can use for support purposes than killing.
Honestly, I kinda like this, makes it so sure, its still brainless, but its effectiveness actually matches the skill required to use it, as instead of killing snipers or noticeably damaging snipers, you're just hindering their aim, and with crowds it only softens them up a bit instead of causing noteable damage to the whole group and maybe enough damage to kill 1 or 2 enemies
All it does is light enemy's on fire. No minicrits. Just irritation
Or hear me out.
Stop crying about it.
The scorch shot is good as is. It allows pyros to counter stuff like scouts and whatnot.
Why is it so bad if some weapons make the game easier?
@@danieldeak9141 That literally antithetical to the TF2 formula. Where weapons give and take from their pros 'n cons. When you have a gun that has only pros or only cons, its broken and needs fixing. If you have a problem with scouts, I'm sorry but get good at handeling them.
@@crylec6534 oh im trying.
But its pretty hard considering how ANNOYINGLY FAST THEY ARE.
A Short range class like pyro needs something to slow thoose bastards down, because otherwise they can just run away and spam me with a pistol. The scorch shot is pefect for that. Besides, other classes habe weapons with similar stun/knockback mechanics, like natascha, the loose cannon, fucking sentries, rocket launchers, the force a nature and airblast. Why is it so bad if the scorch shot has it?
You mentioned bad teammates feeding the enemy free mmph. I can relate to this 100%. Usually the winning team in a pub game of tf2 is the one with more medics and if your 3 spies are feeding those medics free uber saw hits then there is no hope for you. I sweat, even on Uncletopia servers this is prevalent.
I remember using Phlog's taunt and Immediately as I start rushing in on the chokepoint in Frontier, someone Ubered me.
The only thing stopping my rampage was a Wrangled Sentry pinning me down
Jesus Christ
@@dr_doritotf2305 10 kills, 3 dominations, wipe of a level 3 Dispenser and Teleporter
The Engineer couldn't even avenge them because as I dropped from the sky, that same Med healed me as I'm retreating
Busted vs Busted lol
Jesus christ, thats jason bourne.
i remember pinning a ubered pyro down with wrangler.
I think we can all universally agree that the phlog is only a major problem when there's a pocket medic. Only seeing the pyro when they're ubercharged and under critz is just awful.
As a Medick main, i under no circumstances Uber Phlog Pyros, it feels dirty.
When a phlog has no med or crits
I'll play demoknight and force them after a few heads to switch off it lmao
I'm pretty sure this has more to do with the power of Medic than the power of the Phlog. How many times has a Medic paired with a Demoman, Heavy or Soldier team wiped. I see it pretty constantly.
Giving the Pyro the option to play like a close-ranged power class doesn't seem so bad in comparison.
@@ninjashot37 I wouldn't even say it says alot about the medic but the medic's uber. Which should be very powerful.
Exactly, by themselves a phlog pyro is an easy kill. But with a pocket med they essentially get 2 different kinds of Uber that makes them literally unstoppable, as now even enemy pyros can’t airblast them away due to the high damage that Crit flames do.
Just to say that the Dragon's Fury is also extremely powerfull against the Phlog thanks to your boosted range and the fact that they can't airblast the fireball
Wait is the fireball airblastable?
@@leeroyjenkins4456 yes but it looks like it didnt get airblasted
what???????? you can airblast the dragons fury??
6:43 And as LazyPurple has talked about - Every class does better when they catch people off-guard, so even then, it's nothing special
Edit: What about changing the Phlog's taunt to one that can be easily heard? That way, good players get some warning to a potential phlog ambush
The phlog is so weird because its simoultaneously really, really bad, and insanely overpowered at the same time. I would disagree though, the phlog is probably the best gun to use with catching people off guard, especially with some overheal
I kinda like that actually, I’d make Pyros taunt when fully charged pretty loud and reverberating + maybe give it some sound electric effects to really sell the idea that there’s trouble around the corner and you should step back and wait for the Pyro to expose himself than blindly turn the corner
I could see this turning the weapon into more of a intimidation tool, where you end up putting the enemy team on alert and make them hesitate wanting to push forward without a plan in the same spirit as a Spy somewhere or a Sniper waiting for them
Still leaves the Phlog Uber really annoying, however
Well, the only class that this doesn't apply to is a solo medic with no Uber charge. Unless you use Uber saw but highly unlikely.
Buff the phlog. Give speed and give it full Uber during the thing, but make it require 5 kills to charge, and make it loud as hell when starting up. It wouldnt be a good balance change but itll be funny.
9:54 nice lazypurple reference
"Browsers can be an annoying drain on your CPU"
Shows picture of chrome using 0.6% of the CPU
that's what chrome wants you to think before you alt tab back and then it takes up 30%
Eh it can be a different story at times
FSoaS, I wanted to say that you putting a time segment for your sponsor is singlehandedly the most pro-viewer sponsorship segment I’ve ever seen. Usually I just have to spam the “Forward 15 seconds” button and hope I manage to land right in between the sponsor and the rest of the video, but here you actually thought of the…well, me types. Really commendable.
@St. Haborym well I mean I'm pretty sure ytbers lose out on a lot of money when a lot of viewers skip the vid
@@susamogus8331 no,skipping sponsors does nothing,since they can't actually check if those were skipped,you can just see a median rate of lenght time before somebody dips out of the video in your stats,not individual sections.
Use SponsorTube btw.
Can I join the foundation
Can confirm SponsorBlock is awesome
@@misteryjeux No, you can check which parts of your video was the most and least used watched
I really like that airblast idea for the phlog, would make it much more dynamic to play with but still retain the brainless aspect if that’s what floats your boat. Combined with a nerf / redesign to the scorch shot that doesn’t make it a detonator clone and I’ll be happy.
i don't think tf2 is getting any more updates
@@ffff-qw7sp tf2 still gets updates. Haven’t seen a major one in awhile though. Scream Fortress is next month so that’s fun.
the only reason i want to keep the knockback on the scorch shot is because without it it's just the detonator, plus with the lack of knockback from airbalst you can't push demoknights or other stronger close range classes back, you need to keep the knockback on the Scorch shot, they should just make it destroy stickies (which you can't move with a phlog) have knockback (which you can't have with the phlog) and completely reduce everything else
@@bruschetta7711 it already destroys stickies, even if it isnt in the description
@@bruschetta7711 The knockback is okay, the _stun_ is where the problem is
Honestly that air blast meter is a really good idea, and if the phlog did mini crits instead of crits (like the buff banner) people would likely be a lot more happy (or at the very least tolerable). Also, that would help greatly with MVM where phlog pyros can still airblast back bots approaching the frontlines
I completely disagree
explain@@lambsauce5312
I agree with the phlog turning pyro into an "ambusher" class, but i feel like its important to note that its not always 1 guy getting ambushed due to how flames work. A clumped team caught off guard turns into many piles of ashes.
As an Isaac player, when I saw the dunce cap on the flamethrower my first thought was, “what, does it shoot two jets at diagonals?”
That actually sounds like a good ideia
I have another idea for retooling the Phlog: give it an airblast that deletes projectiles like the old Short Circuit, and make MMPH charge off of _that._
I had a idea that before the Delete ball was using the Delete Zapper function of the Short Circuit and now with the Delete Ball, a 65 ammo cost Zapper ball on the alt fire of the Phlog.
A flamethrower that deletes projectiles would be great, it could counter sticky spam.
that said, Short circuit Primary fire needs something to have a use, maybe similar to the Widowmaker that attacking people gives metal back?
Charging out of deleted projectiles would make it as usable as the manmelter
That may work, but then your mmph would be dependent on the other team’s composition, which isn’t very good
17:35 this is just PERFECT. Decision making is what phlog needs in the first place. It should help make a lot of mind games between the phlog and the enemy it’s facing
Love how you say it’s “annoying” that pyro doesn’t need to aim accurately, it’s totally not like they’re literally spraying lit fuel on you with an over-engineered metal hose
Burny fuel from fancy hose > stupid overengineered miniature incendiary explosive fired from a 40mm (presumably, as thats what it looks like to me.) launcher.
The thing is, the flamethrower has limited range. And it's not as destructive, but the scorch shit has very long range, and can be devastating.
@@thatguygold the scorch shot can't be "devastating" it's typically just really fucking annoying.
fortunately its also attatched to bad pyros most of the time so it aint too big a deal most of the time :) @@thatguygold
I honestly think that if the gas passer was actually usable it would pair really well with this. The idea of frantically running back and forth between covering the flanks as ambush pyro and throwing out supportive crowd control at the front line all while charging up your meter to prepare for a heavy offensive push sounds really fun
The idea of the plog being buffed with optional airblast seems good, but I feel it should be much easier to get airblasts and much harder to get crits, so that if you do pop crits, they are truly earned. To go with this even more, turn the weapon upside down and have *reflect* damage give a big boost in crits, meaning that a good airblast can actually gain mmph charge. That would seem like a really fun and much less toxic weapon.
I swear the balance mods guys are having an idiot contest with the dudes at valve that nerf everything
@Crashie-J dude don't say that competitive will save tf2 trust me casual won't even notice balance changes because we say so
@Crashie-J It’s not competitive players fault that Valve dropped the ball on trying to balance towards a more competitive environment.
That’s like saying it’s your fault the chef completely charred your burger since you ordered the burger in the first place. It’s not even like they asked for it to be like that either.
It's NERF or NOTHIN' 😎
@@OGSumo The needs of TF2's competitive which halves the class diversity and player numbers means that most balance changes to that group will break the balance for the larger casual community. It's like asking a car company to change their production line into entirely F1 cars when it doesn't fit well in urban highways or countryside roads.
@Crashie-J This hurts my eyes. My man out here saying competitive is the reason the weapons have been gutted, instead of trying to look at the company who messed up the balancing on the first place.
The backburner is probably my favorite flamethrower because it rewards you for playing the class as an ambush class without completely removing your supportive abilities.
But The Airblast Takes A Bit Too Much Ammo Imo
if only hitting people in the back worked properly
@@bruschetta7711 TF2 Hitbox 😎😎😎😎
the more cost airblast can actually be help to better at pyro becuase like the stock syringe gun with medic, it can a good training tool on using airblast properly, basically handicapping yourself to be better
Would you be saying the same years ago when the Backburner was being condemn for the same talking points as the Phlog?
I love in minute 14:17 where he's talking about the manmelter and extinguishing teammates, he has the plhog and the scorch shot, and has an ally spy dying to afterburn, and he let's him burn even tough he just killed a Pyro that had the backburner, and could have picked it up really quick for a fast extinguishing
Honestly I agree with you on this one. The Phlog is incredibly powerful, there's no doubt about that, but in trade for that power Pyro forsakes his greatest utility, airblast, which is simultaneously defensive, offensive, and supportive. Airblast is what makes Pyro powerful, since flame damage is so weak. The issue is the Scorchshot, which, on a single direct hit, outdamages the stock flaregun and ignites surrounding players, making it a direct upgrade to the Detonator despite having a lower skill floor.
How did you manage to bitch about the scorch shot when the discussion was the phlog.
@@arandomcommenter412 beacuse every single Pyro uses it with Phlog as a crutch to great effects. Not the issue with the rest of secondaries
@@arandomcommenter412 How did you manage to not know half of the video was also bitching about the scorch shot.
Honestly I would not be so sure that Scorchshot is a direct upgrade to the Detonator.
Scorchshot is definitely easier to use but in the right hands detonator can be just as good, or better.
I do not claim to be a detonator expert, but I believe you can gain a lot from ability to explode your projectile in the air, especially against flying/highly mobile classes.
My main source for this idea is this video made by Vorobey ruclips.net/video/s0Kx5ZBi_8U/видео.html
@@kirgizikable True enough, but as Fishstick himself said, the Scorch Shot rewards you a lot for a single hit. More damage than the stock flaregun, since it hits, then minicrits. That said, you are right that the Detonator is better for mobility (since you can detonate the flare at your feet), and since you can detonate the flare mid-air, you can hit targets that you would have otherwise missed entirely.
Any flamethrower can go thru spawn gates, its just another source spaghet that can only be fixed if they do the entire engine again....or source 2
I love the Phlog. It’s one of the few sources of invulnerability in the whole game that isn’t the medic’s stock Uber, Bonk! Atomic Punch, or an Uber Canteen in mvm. You can use it to chase enemies away, or stuff rockets aimed at an engie nest, or make soldiers blow themselves up. A lot of people remember the phlog for the crits, but no one remembers the Uber. Yes you’re forced to stand still during it, but it’s still full invulnerability and that’s still something of value. If the scorch shot ever gets nerfed, hopefully people will begin to realize the real potential of the the phlog outside of mindlessly charging at enemies with the fire button held down.
Okay so I just read that previous paragraph and realized the only thing the phlog does better than any flame thrower with airblast is scaring off players, and killing the ones that don’t respect your space. Still, it’s important to note that Pyro still has some counterplay to explosives based classes with the phlog, albeit more limited.
Would you rather:
1- charge up a meter for like 3 minutes before using it, and when used you're "invulnerable" while tauning (in quotes because being ubered doesnt prevent you from being juggled like a ballon by explosives or airblast) which forces you to stand still for 3 seconds JUST to MAYBE make soldiers blow themselves up, which it most likely wont happend because compitent sollies will just back up and wait to shoot you, and scare off enemies.
2- use airblast, which it can be used at any time, is instant, can reflect any projectile and when it does it makes it mini crit, so you can kill more than one enemy at once. Or use airblast to push enemies away and deny enemy Ubers.
Or 3- use bonk which you can use instantly, use it to do everything the mmmmph taunt does but for longer and being able to move and thus not only make people blow themselves up but to also distract sentries so that your team can push and destroy it.
Yeah phlog is only good for ambush, which is made difficult by the fact that pyro screams during his taunt, which makes enemies aware and check corners, and even then the backburner is better at that.
Phlog is definitely pyros worst primary
@@JustinWHY-zz7gz
The the Phlogistinator is a defensive tool tho. Literally any other flame thrower would be better for ambushing because they have airblast which lets pyro fight power classes WAY more effectively. As stated before, the Phlog is best at scaring off players and killing the ones that don’t respect your space. To maximize this effect, you need to be in a situation where the enemy is forced to come to you, ideally in a closed space. That said, I’ll concede that stock airblast is better in a majority of situations. Not being completely useless in open areas gives pyro way more freedom to roam around and pick fights.
@@SonicSlash51 uhmm... You do know that the airblast can just push away enemies with just a click right? Its a milion times better than to just scare off enemies. Scaring off enemies has never happened to me while phlog taunting, players always just stood there waiting for my taunt to end so that they could kill me.
Phlog is only, and i mean ONLY good for ambushes
@@JustinWHY-zz7gz
Yeah I suppose if you’re on your own enemies are unlikely to run far enough away, and even then some have no sense of self preservation. Taunting in front of someones face is kinda asking to die. Also yes I’m aware that stock airblast affects players, I just didn’t feel the need to bring it up because of course it does. If the enemy team starts getting too comfortable with projectile classes, I’ll bust out the stock flamethrower no problem. But if they’re lacking, I prefer the phlog.
I've found my favorite place to use the phlog really is MVM. It feels good to melt through robots like butter and it pairs very well with the exploding gas passer and uber canteens. I really don't like going into pubs without airblast though, really for the reason that I can't play the supportive pyro role. Not being able to extinguish teammates is the worst in my opinion.
The scorch shot complain video 2, ft the phlog. with a small cameo of demoknight complain.
Remember this tip: Use Battalions if they have a pubstomping phlog pyro with uber. (Look at the replies too)
this! or the vacc
@@SonicSanctuary True!
Doesn't really apply that well I the Pyro has a pocket medic and just spams flares and comes out with the crits while under Uber and/or if their other teams its backing him up :c
@@metalslug55516 We can use vacc and battalions to try and retaliate as well as using airblast to push them back.
@@awesomeheavendac That's true, but the thing about dealing with a Pyro like this is that you need yo get him before it gets you
Without the team collaborating to at least push at the same time during the banner, all can come falling down really quick
I'd just like to say how much I absolutely LOVE your choice of music throughout this video.
Donkey Kong Country 2 has a special place in my heart, and it's soundtrack never fails to fill me with an unparalleled amount of nostalgic joy.
As a pro pyro I always say to f2p:
"Getting a kill with pyro is brainded and ez, staying alive and getting more kills is where skill is"
hpmmmph hmph hhmmmmph hpmmmh! (and thats how 'ptp's came to life!)
It’s easy to get a kill with W+M1, but usually it’s just one or two out of a large group and it’s from afterburn post-death. Usually also contributes a net zero to the group because you die as well and it’s likely that if you’re doing W+M1 your only contribution is a rare kill when a group is pushing and not doing the most to the push as a whole.
True
@@GogiRegion i only W=+M1 the if they don't have medics r engies or half of their team
@@minegaming4526 the only time i would use wm1 is if theres a large group of people in a small corridor
it’s funny cause the phlog is unironically the worst flamethrower because of the lack of air blast
Edit: let me explain.
The medics core part of him is healing. That’s the reason the medic exists, to heal. All his mediguns heal at the same rate, and the side grades all have the basic gimmick of overheal and ubercharge. The one that strays the most from it is the quick fix, but it has an exception. Because the medic still does his job, healing, and at a faster rate, the overheal penalty is justified because of how fast you heal people. And also, the player isn’t in a life threatening situation where they *need* overheal. The medic is healing them anyway at faster rate than stock, the patient should be fine usually if they’re retreating. Even then, you still get a noticeable overheal buff on higher health classes like soldier and heavy. It’s not much, but it’s definitely still overheal.
Moving on to the phlog, comparing this to the quickfix, just…doesn’t work. Flames aren’t they only thing pyro is. Pyro isn’t just for wm1 spam and death. If I’m honest, pyro has more defense and support than he does offense. Taking away that defense and support and merging it into the offense sounds great! Except there’s a problem. Unlike the quick fix, instead of just neutering it, you completely remove it. The dragons fury is another offense pyro flamethrower and it does it very well! The offensive capabilities it give let you rush down enemies extremely quickly and mow down groups super fast with your damage buff. You still have airblast, but if you use it In a fight your basically dead since your primary takes like 3 years to recharge. WHen you’re out of combat, you can definitely use it to help your team doused in flames, or get rid of some rocket spam while capping or pushing a cart. But the phlog just…doesn’t have any of it. And I’m not factoring in melees or secondaries. What if you have your jetpack or shotgun? How do you charge your mmph at all without a flare gun? How do you help your team without the mannmelter? The only thing you could probably do is use thruster with homewrecker, but…why would you extinguish teammates with the thruster. The homewrecker is okay, I guess. The sick dopamein rush you get from crits is invalidated by no dopamein rush from airblast. LazyPurple basically PERFECTLY summarized the phlog in his video, “The only team you’ll be crushing is a team you’d be crushing anyway with airblast”
i also like how valve thought that 750 damage for some after burn damage is justified at the same balance as 300 damage for 10 seconds of crits
Unless you're somebody who can't really airblast (A.K.A me)
Rldr
A medic and a phlog pyro really are the worst. Especially on dustbowl's last cap, my team got killed by ONE pyro + med combo and we couldn't leave spawn, three times.
15:48
No...
Please don't bring it up...
I miss the old axtinguisher
I legit had that same idea for a Phlog buff for months now. I never mentioned it because I felt it would go against the core mechanics of the weapon, but honestly, now I just think it would be a pretty fair change.
I use the backburner and the degreaser, i just cant deal with not having an airblast for rockets and pipes
Meanwhile me using the Dragon's Fury and sweating bullets because I have to wait between airblasts
@@Original_Katros use manmelter with dragon fury
@@deyontemyers4109 that can't reflect projectiles though
@@LoraLoibu no but it is better at extinguishing teammates which allows you to save your air blast for the dragon fury
@@deyontemyers4109 true
In the Balancemod, we've seen zero change in how the phlog is used after the change. It's still as effective and as deadly as before. Just now more players on the opposing team to the phlog pyro knows there's a phlog pyro.
Official Phlog version:
Scenario: I run flame thrower and detonator, and spam flares all game and light enemies on fire. They have seen me run the flamethrower and know it's not a phlog.
I then switch to phlog, conceal it and spam flares the same way, and suddenly I have guaranteed crits around the corner with a pocket medic with uber. With the phlog change, at least some of the enemy team will know there's a phlog pyro and make better game decisions based on that. Basically I can sit back and use my teammates as sandbags while I farm my phlog, basically making my team's member count -1, making them do worse in overall engagements since all I'm doing is sitting back and mindlessly spamming flare, not contributing anything to the fight. Then when all my teammates are dead I then punish the now pushing team with guaranteed crits that they had no idea of know was there or coming.
With the balancemod change. the pyro can't just farm bad players, this is most prevalent in games where there's more coordination than in your average casual game. No longer can a phlog pyro seemingly appear out of no where with a full charge without any commitment that also hurts the team they are on.
What you are saying about the combo things doesn't really make sense to me. It wouldn't discourage pyros from using their secondaries, since pyro's mid and long range pressure is still bad, and you are no longer locked to a flaregun to get the most out of the phlog, which means you can now combo as you see fit with any weapon of your choice. Getting a phlog charge is still really easy, you just can't have a safe, noncommital way of getting the charge anymore. Since the reward compared to the risk was favoring the reward too much if done right.
Also if you have any suggestions that want to be taken seriously you should post them in our discord.
I'll be honest, I find it a bit hard to believe that the Phlog is being used the same as it was before when flare spam isn't an option for charging anymore. I also have a small bit of contention with the idea of using any other flamethrower for most of the round, then switching to the Phlog as a surprise tactic. If you've seen that often enough to the point where it becomes an issue, then that's fair, I'm not the one running the server here, but I've never seen that sort of behavior once. But my main issue with this comes from the fact that the Phlog is incredibly ostentatious. With the taunt, the laugh, the Ubered Pyro and the glowing effect, it's kind of hard to miss, and players who don't retreat upon hearing or seeing this stimuli should rightly be punished for sticking around. If they're far enough away that they can't hear the effects, then they should be safe to run away from the class with highly limited range, even if he is Ubered, and if he's not Ubered, he's still as vulnerable as any Phlog Pyro, crit charge or otherwise. I understand that it may be easy to misinterpret the laugh from the taunt as one of Pyro's default domination sound effects, but then the simple solution there is to give the Phlog taunt a more unique or distinctive sound effect that's impossible to miss, and one that can't be cancelled out of mid-taunt by using a voice line. And if farming bad players is a genuine concern, then you're going to need to cast a much wider net than one flamethrower, because the Soldier banners, Air Strike, Eyelander, KGB, Frontier Justice, Ubersaw, Carbine, Diamondback and Kunai are going to need some changes too if that's the case. I've seen far more devastating Kunai Spies and Eyelander Demos than I have Phlog Pyros in my time, and their effects for farming bad players are far more immediate and difficult to punish compared to the Phlog. And honestly, being a flamethrower that's restricted to just W+M1 means bad players are just about the only people it can kill consistently, since those are the players most vulnerable to it, so yes, it's still farming bad players. It's just forced to do that in a more brainless way instead of being allowed to be tactical at all.
My point with the combos is that Pyro's mediocre damage output, average speed and lack of mobility, means in a close range fight, he may need to get a combo off in order to secure a kill, and the Phlog, with the flare guns, enhances that effect by not only getting a kill, but also giving you charge. By removing the charge from the equation, all the Pyro can do is waste opportunity to get charge in exchange for getting the kill quickly and safely, which just makes getting the charge up even more of a slog than it already is. It feels like it would encourage completely passive behavior, but instead of flares it's a flamethrower, or else an extreme hit and run playstyle where you let afterburn do all the work. Believe me, I'm not a fan of being on the other end of a flare fairy, but this change punishes Pyros who are aggressive with their flares just as much as it does those who are passive with them. In the vast majority of situations, you'd be better off using any other flamethrower, and in my eyes, it actually encourages pocketing even more than it did before because now you have to run at people if you want to get the charge consistently. On paper that seems fine because the Phlog is really strong on paper, but it means for 90% of the match, you just have a worse stock flamethrower, completely unable to support your team unless you're using the Manmelter, which now gives the Phlog no other benefit and removes that degree of synergy that it previously had. The reason I brought up using the Shotguns with the Phlog is that it's painful to get your charge up playing this way, and this change makes it the exact same as that. I'm not saying getting the charge should be easy or trivial, but making it painful on a weapon that's so harshly limited as it stands to the point where it really needs the crits to contend with the sheer utility of airblast at all, and also needs a highly coordinated pocket Medic on top of that, feels like a misstep.
i know i dont like being on the other end of the flare fairy but all that this is doing is punishing pyros who are aggressive with their flares and farming bad players in a more brainless way instead of being tactical it encourages more pocketing even more then before without a medic pocketing you just have a worse stock flamethrower that unable to support your team unless you're using the Manmelter which you removed the synergy that it had by the way why cant you just i don't know nerf the scorch shot some more also if farming bad players is a concern then you might want to cast a bigger net to the eyelander bazaar bargin diamondback kunai if that was the case
fish stick after complaining about the scorch shot for the 100th time: 😎😎😎
How about expanding the idea of using mmmmmph meter for airblast and nerfing its airblast to only delete projectile rather than reflecting it. Then when the meter is full, use G or R to activate mmmmmmph.
So the afterbrealfeast method
like the short circuit?
@@Underworlder5 yes but also no
I remembered trying out the phlog contract and it was extremly awful (I use stock on a regular basis), without the scorch shot or pocket medic you barely can get your charge, and since killing people with flares and their afterburn didnt count for the kill count, you had to avoid using them at all; on top of that killing someone via afterburn after you died also doesn't count, despite the fact that the developers themself reconigzed that pyro's rol is to damage enemies even if his not strong enough to kill them by himself; and of course the few times I activated the charge, everyone recognized that simply getting away was the best strat against you, it was so awful that I stopped playing pyro for a whole week even without completing the contract at 100%
And of course using the phlog was the most boring experience I had since my era of turtle engie.
You just reminded me of when I chose that contract as a newer player. I thought to myself “I am not sure if I am skilled enough to do the other two options, so I will go with the one everyone calls OP, that way I can be done and over with it.”
I had no idea how painfully boring the grind would be, dying over and over to my inability to do anything other than wm1. Eventually I got to farm kills on a ctf double cross server when me and the other guy were the only two left.
I now have the australium contracker, but boy was it hard to get. My knowledge of the game has improved, so if I could go back, I would definitely take the other two options. I think they were soda popper and direct hit. Even if you are a new guy, please don’t do the phlog contract. Please.
This dude legit makes Pyro look so fun to play.
20 more minutes _supposedly_ about a weapon but really about the Scorch Shot. Never change, ScorchShotOnaStick.
14:36 I mean come on he did 300 damage with just the Scorch shot in 8 seconds. How can anyone defend this weapon?
Option #3 for the scorch shot genuinely sounds interesting to me.
*takes cover*
Guaranteed crits on a flamethrower are so absurdly powerful that even vaccinator medics with fire resistance active melt like butter.
Vac blocks criticals for its selected damage type though..
@@exilecrusher7271 Luckily the phlog reduces that by 20%
my favorite secondary for pyro would be The Detonator and with the power jack, I can be more mobile and do a little mini rocket jump.
I think the Phlog should have a unique airblast.
Think "weaker push force" that only destroys projectiles, but has the benefit of lighting whoever you airblast on fire, making combos easier
I've entertained the idea that instead of an airblast, its a vacuum that sucks projectiles in that can charge your phlog.
Phlog, jetpack, and a pocket quickfix medic. Jump past the enemy team. Burn their butts. This is the optimal way to use the phlog. Its my noise marine load out
4:46 hey that's me playing soldier!!
Thank you, I have always struggled to explain that the problem with the phlog being unfun to play against wasn't inherently the phlog's fault but rather the scorch shot's, thank you for making a video about it :]
I’m not technically a representative of the balancemod but please for the love of god join our discord server. There is no balance team. It’s just GPS deciding what happens and the best the community can do is come forward as a group with ideas. Recently we’ve been starting server wide discord calls to discuss the overall opinions on changes
does he even listen?
Honestly the phlog feels similar to granny shots in basketball. It works really well but people judge you for it.
Me: sees fish use the scorch shot.
Also me: you have become the very thing you wanted to destroy!
phew i thought you were about to praise higps's balancemod for a minute there, there's a good reason nobody fuckin plays it. in my eyes, it's because it makes a ton of very questionable balance decisions under the guise of being the ideal balance for the game with the very name "balancemod". (-7% quickscope damage ftw)
I know, right? For me, at least, the second that I saw that they didn't nerf the wrangler, I didn't take their balances seriously.
@@quidquid1476 Wait, they didn't nerf the goddamn Wrangler out of everything in the game?
...Now I can see why nobody takes the balance patch seriously
@@quidquid1476 they did nerf the wrangler but it was a nothing nerf unless thats what you mean.
Exactly. Most of the balance changes I don't like (the Eyelander was nerfed, not because it needed to be in the base game, but because the "balances" for the shields made it overpowered, as well as removing the swap speed of the Panic Attack AKA one of the main selling points instead of just fixing the bugs related to it, and it makes the Warrior's Spirit way too good by just giving it a 20% slower deploy speed and no other downsides, effectively NERFS THE OVERDOSE by giving you a -20 health, etc), and the ones I do like feel so minor that there's no reason to play it over casual or uncletopia. Many of the weapons it nerfs hits them in a way that makes them nearly useless, but some nerfs do literally nothing to fix actually broken weapons like the Wrangler and the Scorch Shit. The mod feels like it's meant to make stock 100% the best in nearly all situations instead of it being an all-rounder.
The folks at balancemod need to stop thinking like players and start thinking like developers. They're creating a product for other people. They need to interview members of their audience, understand what could be improved in base TF2, and seek to do so. Not just tack on random buffs willy-nilly.
Phlog is the equivalent of a insta-kill in guilty gear (almost)
1:50 not me, just to be sure
I'd say the Phlog is perfectly balanced. A crippling downside in exchange for incredible upside. A phlog pyro without kritz is literally the worst, most vulnerable class in the game.
Agreed.
2:25 that demo used stick bombs well
Detonator Phlog can actually be a really fun combo once you get good at it. Getting a charge off a few well timed detonations and then rocketing yourself at the enemy team with full crits is bar none the most satisfying playstyle for the phlog in my opinion
Yeah. I always used the Pyro sidegrades with airblast but after only using the phlog in MvM I decided to try it in casual by using the detonator to get charge and kill people. Pretty interesting.I agree with a lot of fish's points, but canceling the animation while on a certain entity is really fun in MvM, and it takes a lot more skill to pull off in casual because you need to land on a guy's head, I think the Pyro deserves that.
9:50 lazy purple..
8:58 This statement almost implies, that there's no tactical decision making, behind an ambush. It's almost like saying that Spy is unfair, because he can instantly kill you and your friends.
That's not really what I'm saying, I'm saying that in the situations where W-M1 is most effective, it's usually during an ambush which is annoying to fight against because you have no idea it's coming. That's just the nature of an ambush. It's annoying to get killed by a Spy in a similar fashion, but neither of these are overpowered or lacking in tactics.
Best ending: fish complains about the phlog AND scrotch shot
3:53 I miss when you could mess around with the guys on the other side but now 90% of the time it’s just some f2p pyro sitting on the other end trying to do the cool thing with the spawn doors they saw in a video.
Hot take: Phlog isn't even Pyro's best flamethrower in MvM, I've done more total damage with the Dragon's Fury.
Also my suggestion for the Phlog would be to give it basically what you suggested for the Manmelter: a pseudo-airblast that only disintegrates projectiles instead of sending them back, and that's how you charge your MMMPH (which would now be activated with reload or whatever).
Phlog is better at tank busting, DF is better at giant killing.
Okay, okay, hear me out on this one: the Phlog is changed to disintegrate projectiles with the same timing as the airblast; whatever an airblast reflects is just destroyed by the Phlog instead, so the player can still somewhat mitigate explosives, but not return them to sender. This is essentially the airblast version of the Short Circuit, but obviously not bullshit because it's not a "fuck you" ball and you can still catch the pyro with proper timing. Mmph still exists and maybe gets changed to mini-crits because nobody likes easy team wipes and ubered+critted pyros, and it could even not recharge on afterburn, which then opens the way for the Mannmelter combo:
- The Phlog will not extinguish teammates, but still can deny projectiles like an airblast, while giving reason for a Kritzkrieg medic to exist if nerfed to mini-crits and nulling the Scorch Shot synergy with the removal of afterburn filling.
- The Mannmelter will extinguish teammates and have the highest burst damage *with the Phlog* of all flare guns, encouraging the pyro to extinguish teammates to refill the Phlog at longer ranges and use a flare gun that requires aim.
- The Third Degree gets buffed to deal +100% melee damage, +100% building damage, swings cause a map-wide wall of fire and crits apply to the entire enemy team; whoever's dead by the time the crit happens will get critted as soon as they spawn.
A downside to removing afterburn fill, of course, is that the Gas Passer becomes even more of an ass passer than it already is... which literally every player wouldn't care about because the weapon is already so underwhelming, nobody uses it anyway.
in exchange for ruining somones day you get an inability to counter the classes you can usually counter with the m2 button
Maybe instead of the airblast, the 4 mini-bars could allow the phlog to generate a small black hole or void looking thing that just consumes a projectile or afterburn and doesn't reflect it.
Lazy purple said it best: "Yes, playing with the Phlog is really fun but do you know how many problems airblast solves for the Pyro?"
I completely agree, while the guaranteed critical hit mechanic can win games and get you killstreak but at the end of the day, airblast is one of the most powerful thing in the Pyro's disposal and always will be.
a potential balance idea for it would be to have something like the quick fix effect where your health rapidly regenerates but damage goes from crits to mini crits so you are able to rush in and survive while also dealing a good chunk of damage. and yeah nerf the scorch.
@@Enigmatony oh i wish.
I wouldn’t say you need a pocket when it comes to phlog. Good map knowledge and knowing where health kits are will generally sustain you if you don’t mind a quick detour, which can honestly help sometimes
As a phlog Pyro, I love to combo it with the scorch shot. It feels rewarding being able to do damage at long range, and the phlog makes me feel like a glass cannon, able to do a great amount of damage at close range, but still extremely vulnerable to everyone around me
Everyone should be thankful for every brainless W+M1 pyro they see. If they're rushing at you like that, it means they're NOT ambushing you, disabling your sticky traps, or turning all your projectiles against you. Scariest shit I've ever seen from a good pyro was one of them jumping into the air, airblasting STRAIGHT DOWN on a soldier's rocket, and rocket jumping onto the 2Fort battlements to send a couple snipers to the shadow realm.
5:57 nice deflect there
I swear, people actively look for things to complain about when it comes to this weapon. In reality, what ever you can do with Phlog, Stock/Degreaser can do it better and more efficiently.
I gotta say, the phlog is the perfect tool to counter over confident pocketed players if you're good at ambushing. Phlog isn't as bad as people claim it is.
Did you know that most people are not able to kill you while you are standing still doing the taunt and I don't know how they mess it up
5:06 I’m glad you clarified, because I was very confused why you were so angry that it was a space weapon.
Whole video is pretty good but that idea in the end with mmph meter is really cool, appreciate it
Eh.
Some say Phlog is overpowered.
I say - unless the Pyro actually ambushed you, you got no excuse to not pump their face full of lead or sticky bomb them, or headshot them, or blast them with a rocket, _or anything_
Issue: I can't hit my rockets/bullets/whatever in the chaos of a TF2 fight.
@@ARandomSpace Solution: Practice and learn to aim better
@@Joe-oc9rq Issue 2: I can't practice if this damn spy/sniper keeps killing me before I get to a fight.
@@ARandomSpace solution: improve awareness, against spy and constantly spy check every possible spy hiding spot. When within the sight line of snipers try to move erratically by crouching, jumping, and moving side to side as much as you can, or try to avoid their line of sight. If you playing soldier or demo try to counter snipe them with the sticky or rocket to lessen their aim
@@mostdefinitelynotadurian Issue 3: I can't spycheck if I'm being murdered by spies or snipers while attempting to spycheck. Issue 4: I can't move erratically to avoid snipers or shoot at sniper hiding spots if the snipers and spies keep killing me before I can react.
Sacrificing your crit meter for an airblast is genius. I want that change yesterday.
Using the charge meter to airblast is such an excellent idea!
> Proposes to buff the phlog
> Best video on youtube 10/10
One thing that always confused me is how OP pill spam is down chokes but people endlessly complain about Scorch Shot.
People hate spam no matter what but the scorch shot can make the phlog super powerful and the demo can't get free crits from spam unless is random crits
Finally someone said it, I’ve always thought the Phlog was way too overrated and underpowered. Its always felt like a handicap to play with it, but for some reason people kept complaining and saying it was overpowered. But no it’s not that the Phlog is overpowered, it’s that the Scorch Shot is overpowered and makes up for any weakness any of the weapons have, especially the Phlog.
I like your idea for a balance change for the weapon, however I had the idea of increasing the damage threshold for Mmph by a hundred or so, maybe two. But making it so you can build it up with all types of damage. Or maybe keeping the cap the same, but not allowing burn damage to count towards it. It would also be a good idea to add a airblast since you kind of need one for Pyro as a whole.
But I was thinking, what if instead of an airblast we added the old Short Circuit secondary fire action? It would only work in a limited area and use some of your meter. But in exchange for some of your meter you can destroy enemy projectiles, and extinguish burning players. I was even thinking of redesigning the weapon as a whole, so what if instead of it being focused on burst damage, it took on more of a support role? What if instead of simply extinguishing burning players and destroying projectiles, it also allowed you to get rid of debuffs?
I think it would really work well, but I suppose for that to be the case, it would have to be one or the other. I think allowing it to destroy projectiles and debuffs would be a little OP, either way you should still be able to extinguish teammates. And maybe since you’re using your meter what if instead of health on extinguish/ debuff removal/ projectile deletion, you got some ammo back. It would make it easier to use and more helpful over all since with more ammo you can get more meter which in tern allows you to assist your teammates more effectively.
I’m thinking we make the Phlog a support tool and the crits, a last resort. And while increasing the amount needed to fill the meter, you also have more mini meters to use allowing you to work more effectively as a support.
Another idea I had was instead of focusing on support, what if we tried to fix a problem that comes with the weapon. What if instead of the meter giving you crits, it gave you a ball of energy like the Short Circuit? When using Mouse 2, and with a full mini meter charge, you are able to shoot out a ball of energy which will act like a slightly larger Detonator shot, but it’s much slower probably about the speed of one of Soldiers rockets. It won’t destroy projectiles, but it will set enemies ablaze, and it can allow you to Detonator jump a little higher, not too much maybe slightly lower than Soldier’s rocket jump. And if you fully charge the meter you can choose to either shoot a normal Detonator ball, or a charged ball which would fly a little faster and go a litter further and have a bigger detonation area, but that’s about it. It would work great for attacking a choke point, but you would have to both aim and time it properly to get the most out of it, you can’t just spam it all willy nilly if you want to actually be effective.
I have a few other ideas but I think this gets my point across, I see a lot of potential in this weapon, and how it could pair up with the other weapons in it’s set. I’ve always had a soft spot for the Manmelter and Phlog which is why I use them together every now and then, kind of reminds me of Pyromania back in the day. But anyway if anyone has any other suggestions feel free to add theme, I don’t think these ideas are perfect and of course would need a lot of fine tuning, but I think the Phlog If done right could possibly turn into one of the best weapons in Pyro’s arsenal. And more importantly be seen as a weapon the community loves, rather than hates due to the fault of another weapon that breaks the two of them in certain scenarios.
That sounds pretty good, giving Plog the ability to delete projectiles, so you aren't completely gimped, but you aren't dealing damage back. It's certainly a buff against sticky traps, though. And since it's not airblast, you'll still have a reason to carry the Manmelter around to extinguish teammates. I will say, you shouldn't be able to alt fire when you get's ctitz, that seems a bit TOO much. And if you can't alt fire while critz, just make the delete area just take ammo instead of meter. It's certainly better than no airblast, but is mostly inferior to actual airblast, so I don't think there should be a reason it uses up meter to pull it off over just using ammo. If it's too powerful just make it use a fuck ton of ammo like how the Backburner is.
You aren't completely gimped, but still noticeably crippled.
I mean pyro was kind of designed as a handicap class so it's par for the course with the phlog and scorch shot
@@daddysempaichan I was thinking you can alt fire with crits, but in return for using alt fire you lose the crits, or if you just barely activated it you use half of the meter so you only have a few seconds to use crits.
@@zekromfan1 I kind of get it, but I think most people would just not use the airblast at that point. Like, if you were going to airblast, why not just use the other flamethrowers at that point?
If you really wanted that then I'll suggest the airblast be buffed to a disintegration field, where enemies caught in the field to take damage and get set on fire, as to make the tradeoff of using the meter(and delaying your on demand crits farther back) to be better and worthwhile. It'll also make using the Phlog more intresting during the times between the crits, and perhaps allows the Pyro to ignore the crits aspect entirely and just focus on the different airblast.
@@daddysempaichan I mean I understand that part, but I think it’s important to try and keep the crits if at all possible. But the issue arises in how the crits and disintegration field would be balanced together, if they were together that is. Maybe don’t have the field be tied to the meter, but instead on a cool down, but then it’s less about skill and more about timing. And I want it to be more of a reward for playing well, since If you could just spam it without worrying about ammo or meter usage, I feel it would be overpowered in many situations.
The problem comes though with, what do you do when you have a full set of meters? If you want to create a disintegration field instead of using crits, how would you do that? I figured that maybe you should hold the button down or cancel out of the crits in order to use it. But again how would that effect balancing, and would that break the weapon. I feel like keeping the crits is an important part of the Pholg’s identity, but maybe for a rework it would just be better to ditch it all together. Maybe instead of crits, we merge the two ideas and instead shoot out a charged detonation blast at full meter which would act as a long range disintegration field with medium damage, and a quick projectile speed.
But the problem I see with getting rid of the crits is how the weapon set was designed, the Phlog and Manmelter both get crits after certain conditions are met with alt fire. Well I suppose that isn’t really a problem, but I feel like they ought to compliment one another a little. So maybe don’t allow the Phlog to extinguish allies and instead leave that to the Manmelter, while the Phlog deals with enemy projectiles and at full meter it sends out a projectile of its own. Maybe upon deleting a projectile you gain mini crits for a few seconds instead?
So you still get crits, but you have to time it right in order for them to be effective, and if you use the crits right you can fill the meter faster which would allow you to gain more crits.
So instead of storing crits like the Manmelter or the current Phlog, you earn them when deleting projectiles which would make a push a little easier, and would also still keep Demos and Soldiers second guessing whether or not they should fire at you.
Maybe the Phlog should be a bigger yet different Manmelter in that sense. The two of them compliment one another a little better, and the Manmelter is no longer mostly useless. But I suppose the Manmelter would need a slight buff, so what if it had a mini disintegration field which would take any debuffs your allies have and convert them into crits/mini crits? It won’t work on projectiles since that’s what the Phlog does, but instead it works on debuffs/fire. So the Manmelter becomes a better support tool, with the added benefit of being able to deal out alright damaged and quick bursts of high damage if you manage everything right. I can see a Phlog Manamelter combo working really well and being used as a support and defensive push option. It would also pair really well with the Homewrecker or Neon Annihilator. I would like to say the Third Degree, but that weapon would need its own rebalancing if it were to work well. Maybe have it work kind of like the aforementioned weapons in allowing you to destroy sappers, or maybe given what it’s like, what if it allows you to repair buildings with the metal pool every class has? You can’t upgrade them, but you can repair them, it would of course repair slower than the Jag, but it could still work to help an Engie out of a jam. It wouldn’t be able to destroy sappers though, the Homewrecker/ Neon Annihilator would still be needed for that. Maybe in turn it would do less damage to enemy buildings and have a slightly slower swing speed, but when you hit enemies it does a little more damage than stock but not much, and at the cost of pushing them back a little, kind of the like the Shovestop, but not as far. Oh and it wouldn’t be able to random Crit, this way it isn’t so dependent on needing there to be an enemy Medic, and it won’t be as situational as the original version of the weapon is.
Tell me what you think, because I’m thinking that this set could turn into a sub-class and actually make Pybros a thing more than just a joke. It would turn an ambush class into a support class which can deal damage, but you need to focus on your team in order to get the most out of it. I think this idea has a lot of potential, if you have anything to add please feel free to do so.