Scott, I think a big problem is that the community that watches your vids aren't the same casuals who think survivor induced tunneling is different from killer induced tunneling. I agree that it is completely overblown, but that it's the communities fault because they're uneducated on it, generally speaking. I also think educating the community is a monumental task, and casuals won't ever understand the difference.
Yup, I completely agree. A large portion of the complaints are actually just straight up misguided people not knowing the tunneling they're receiving is almost entirely their fault. I keep talking about it in hopes people will learn the difference so the overall complaint levels will go down, but whether or not its a fruitless endeavor doesn't really matter much because I still like discussing it.
@@ScottJund It's still unhealthy for the game IMO. Whether it happens every game or 1 in 20 or whatever is irrelevant. There's a better way for the game to be played so that more people are engaged for longer. Whether it's reducing the 'free' info killers getting on tunnel victims or making it impossible to kill anyone before 5-6 hooks or something else, there's loads of ideas to combat it and even the 'fear' of it happening.
@Peachrocks5 well in this game u either completely destroy them or they completely destroy u I was playing matches where I would tunnel and be downing them pretty quicke but gens kept flying like crazy and eventually lose
one way not to get tunneled is not to go back to the gen or place the killer found you out. If your being a dick as a survivor always flashlighting always being a dick to the killer abusing perks @@ScottJund
@@ScottJund it's kinda pointless, people refuse to play in a certain way or learn how to avoid getting into a bad situation until they complain enough to get that thing removed. IMO, tunnelling as of now is generally a non issue. In equal skill / gear matches, actual tunnelling is not an issue as survivors that arent completely outclassed and are putting effort to win can delay the kill long enough to get through the last gens and get really high chances of escaping pretty consistently. Not even counting the possible teamwork to prevent pick ups / hooks. 1-2 antitunnelling perks, good performance and awareness that killer won't leave you no matter what can make tunnelling for the kill in first 3 hooks a surefire way to throw the game for the killer. Most basic example - predropping god pallet and making 30 seconds worth of W key distance and having killer follow you, because they have put themselves in a situation where they can't drop the chase. People often fail to recognise when hardtunnel is going to happen and dont play accordingly and that is really their fault. In other conditions, it's not worth talking about as "balance" issue because if survivors are outclassed by the killer, it doesnt matter how they play, they would still win. What is the ACTUAL issue is that tunnelling is not fun or rewarding, especially for the survivor that is being targeted or other people that watch their teammate get downed and hooked repeatedly. I really hope devs will for once put effort into making such scenarios still be somewhat enjoyable / rewarding variation of a match, instead of again inventing a system that nerfs killers by stripping them of a strategic choice in a match and forcing them to play in a particular way people are used to. And ofc, it really doesn't happen that often, agreed. In my matches as the survivor I rarely experience actual tunnelling.
Yeah, the issue that I run into as killer is that any time a survivor decides to play ballsy and loses immediately, they're going to complain about tunneling. Dwight: "I'm going to sprint immediately to the hook despite the killer still being there." That Same Dwight: "I'm going to chase the killer to flashlight stun him every time he goes for a hook." Still Dwight: "I'm going to bodyblock the killer while on death hook." Dwight in post-game chat: "Why do killers always tunnel???" I'm not following YOU, you're following ME. Also, sometimes, when you're wearing glowing neon pink clothing and I can't find anybody else, you're gonna die first.
Other theory. The people who play late are more irritable, and therefore remember or feel they remember the negative experiences of getting tunneled more...
@@ScottJund And yet every time you make a video about something dumb on Twitter, you get people calling you an idiot. Very unlucky, maybe one of these times it'll stick.
@@ScottJund This is how i usually see tunnling go . Im hardly the victim . But i wont see it for games and games . Then 3 or 4 games in a row the killer will just go for the rando hooked first . Also most of the time if the killer is going straight back to the hook , he is going for the unhooked guy . That is a pre determined action . However me personally i hardly feel i get tunneled much . Never run second chance perks .
Usually most complaints about tunneling or rushing and so on come down to player agency. Players want to play, and being either hurried out of the match or never getting a choice in what you do harms the experience. The technicalities behind tunneling and its definitions and scenarios are less important than acknowledging that an individual player can indeed be shut out of experiencing the match as intended.
What a based yet insane comment. There are technicalities in the game that cause the behavior we identify as tunneling, and the way we feel about tunneling is that it's bad. So wouldn't the technicalities be more important than focusing on the feeling that result from the technicalities?
Yea, this is pretty much the one thing I never see anyone talk about and I'm kinda annoyed that nobody does. I don't think there's any other game I've ever played where I've been denied my ability to participate in the game. I don't care if I win or lose, that doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is whether or not I can play the game and queuing just to be forced to watch a dynamic wallpaper every like 1 in 7 to 10 games is not fun. Winning is fun most of the time. Losing can be fun sometimes. What isn't fun and never will be is not being able to play the game. At least as killer, you're still able to go around and do things. It's not like every time you get stunned it lasts for 30 seconds or something. People also tend to forget that "skill issues" is kinda hard to debate around because dbd is an asymmetrical game and the fact that map rng is such a huge element to the gameplay. The players you lose to in symmetrical games, you can do the same back to them because you both have access to the same resources and abilities. In that case, yea it really is a skill issue or some other small factors
@@cookiesalad13 i fundamentally disagree that getting tunneled is you "not participating in the game". in fact, you are the entire game. the entire game centers around you, which is why i like actually getting tunneled
For me, tunnelling only maddens me when the killer does it at 5/4 gens, as it's a boring play style and can effectively end someone's game very quickly. I expect it to happen at 1/2 gens, and if I'm the unlucky one getting tunnelled then... well, at least I'll leave the game with some decent points for doing gens/healing etc throughout the early game. So it's more about WHEN tunnelling happens, as the killer player's mindset to just choose someone and aggressively go after them all the time from the start isn't easily counterable - especially in solo queue or if you have the wrong perks for it. So when killers moan about seeing OTR, Dead Hard, etc, all the time... it's simply because survivor players who play a lot want to safe guard their chances of being able to play a trial for longer than 4 mins.
I'll tunnel at 4 gens if I keep getting same dude coming up and body blocking me from chasing someone else, if they do that I'm putting them back down regardless of how many gens are left.
@@oneautumnleaf2622 Yeah that’s fair. I’m speaking more about survivors who have done nothing to “deserve” it, but are chased and targeted until death almost immediately and maybe did nothing in the game except lose two chases and maybe do a gen if they were lucky.
@@danowen79 Yeah but like scott showcased, that REALLY isnt as common as people like to make it out to be.... and dont make it all about you sometiimes you were just the weakest link on the team and the killer wants to pressure that link to break the chain, sometimes getting a easy down is a great way to throw the teams balancing off. I think you would be suprised at how much tunneling is actually tunneling, bc most of the games I get its people put ting themselves in these situations or doing something greedy or stupid and getting punished as a result. if I find you and ive been looking for others I could care less if I just hooked you, II found you Im downing you, thats just me playing the game. Im not going to pretend I didnt see you.
@@oneautumnleaf2622 Yeah. To me tunnelling is typically when you’re unhooked and the killer comes back and aggressively goes after you again until you’re hooked again, rather than focus on the rescuer, at 4/5 gens. That’s when it gets to me. You can get lucky by having perks on to make it frustrating, or the rng of a map will help, or you outplay the killer in loops - but the game is designed around killers being able to down a survivor under 60 seconds. So a tunneller can remove someone in under 5 mins and it’s not fun. The other 3 survivors likely lose the trial too as 3v1 favours the killer
No amount of perks can stop the tunneling, you need survivors on gens, you need a good map, good pallets and it all means nothing if it’s a nurse. However, the only times I have been “hardcore tunneled” was against a huntress and I could tell it was personal, he really didn’t like me, but the entire time I was like: “who are you?” I don’t remember players names so his entire malicious actions were just on his head, I went into the next match like nothing happened
Farming means insta-downing an unhooked surv with no effort. That has been removed from the game with basekit BT, and it's not really "farming" anymore because you have to make a dedicated effort towards downing that unhooked person.
@larsliamvilhelm just run distortion so the killer can't find anyone else. In all seriousness though sounds a little like the anticamp meter. Killers can't be right in the survivors face anymore but even though they are proxying they are somewhat still ironically playing dbd again.
Honestly I think a large reason why it feels shitty to not win in this game is cause of how little you get when you lose, despite your time investment. When you get tunneled it feels even worse. I honestly am struggling to want to play this game after Blood Moon cause of how little BPs I get. Losing would not feel so bad if Blood Moon BPs was permanent. The grind is way too vast even for someone who has a lot of time if they have a lot of characters. I can’t imagine how bad it is for a more casual player.
If you follow the bloodpoint bonus and not just play survivor the whole timee you will see that the bloodpoints actually come pretty easily. This is what I usually do and I can't spend them fast enough.
And with the addition of each new character dlc the grind just gets a little bit worse. I loved the immense blood points you got during the event and almost immediately lost motivation to play once it ejded
The big big big whammy of discouragement is when the game is running multiple stacked blood point bonuses togethers, so you get +500% survivor blood points off your tunneled score of 600 - which is a whopping 3600, rather than the 36000 you would have gotten any day of playing killer WHILE LOSING.
It used to be you could "win" without actually killing anyone if you were playing well enough. I've played for 12 hooks for the vast majority of my "career" in DBD, and ever since they moved away from using Emblems to rate performance the game has suffered for it. Making the only thing that matters be "did you kill more than 2 survivors?" has made tunneling look more and more attractive to Killers whose sole focus is winning. Similarly, making the sole method of winning for Survivors be "did you escape?" has caused a similar problem, where anything other than an escape feels like the game is looking down on your efforts. I used to play giga healing builds as a Survivor and play fully altruistically because even though I suck at chases I could still "win" if I did a couple Gens and unhooked+healed people before I died. These things combined have massively widened the division between Killers and Survivors. The niggling reminder in the back of your head that you're "losing" even though you're playing well has frustrated players, and many of them lash out at their opponents because they "make them lose" instead of it being possible for both sides to win with good play. You could 8 hook survivors and pip, while they also all pip, and everyone walks away thinking "that was fun" because no one "lost". I know the Emblem system has its own issues, but I really wish BHVR would take it back into consideration. I'm sure it's much, MUCH easier to manage matchmaking when you base things on something as binary as kills/surviving, but it is super damaging to everyone's enjoyment of the game to make things so cut and dry. The Emblem system obfuscates how "bad" you played, making it easier to look at blood points earned or getting an Iri Emblem in certain categories so the PLAYER can decide if they feel like they won, instead of the stark feeling of "nope, you died so you suck LOL". Sorry for the wall of text, hope you're doing well Scoot.
Completely agree, I also miss being able to adept a killer while still giving hatch to last man standing, (especially when I downed them but having the safety net for the RNG part of it was also nice)
Totally agree. There was 3 games I played in which I would say I got tunneled for all 3 in a row. The first one, the clown had one hook at 1 gen left. Good 3 gen, and he tunneled me out. Me not being a good survivor, I understand that. Totally valid and definitely necessary to attempt to bring the game back. The next two however: A p100 nurse followed by a p100 blight, both with 4 slowdowns AND map offerings (midwich and autohavens respectively) tunneled me out at 5 gens. I doublechecked later a found I had the least hours of my team both times (not sure if that played a role, just interesting to note). Whilst it’s not fair to take the game outside of the game to get angry at those players, that did indeed stop me from playing any more.
i love when i get unhooked right in front of the killer and the killer completely ignores the unhooker, so i stand still cause im getting tunneled at 3 gens and not having fun, then get slugged for 4 minutes cause the killer goes “why were you trolling” in endgame chat
But always remember that is the killers fault because nothing is every survivors fault. Pisses me off when my teammates are being chased and their first thought if let's go unhook......fuck off. If I die on hook because the other two don't unhook while you are being chased, so be it. But don't try to throw the killers attention onto me by unhooking me mid chase because you don't want to be chased (probably the biggest issue with this game and survivors, too many of them want to hide/sit on gens)
And you blame the killer? Because that's your teammate fault.If there is 1 gen at 80% And the killer kick it Right in front of you, what do you do? Do you continue repairing it as soon as the killer is gone or do you ignore it and go to repair another one?
There's a lot of healing under hook, as well occasions in which both leave for a safer spot, but one or the other player does not have a plan to heal afterwards. I would guess there's a lot of players that have seen PopularStreamer heal under hook, and don't notice the contextual information they use to decide that's safe-ish.
@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN Really can’t say I agree. Half the unhook protection comes in the form of haste; and a killer that’s trying to pressure other stuff before tunneling only knows about the hook position, not the victim’s position 15 seconds later. If they were plainly camping, then unhook as late as possible and run. If they gave some space or got in a nearby chase but you think they may return, at least give a bit of distance and some visual cover, so the killer has a chance of losing track of them. Especially important with killers who have ranged attacks or quick traversal powers. Healing under hook is generally okay if you know the killer is actively chasing somewhere across the map, or you feel sure you can both reach a safe loop if they arrive. Otherwise, I’d be careful.
The problem with the questionnaire was it only asked how often you personally get tunneled. My matches that are ruined is from other people getting tunneled, not myself. I can't sit on a chair with 3 bricks for legs and a toothpick as the 4th.
There's that, and also stuff like the dude who played eight hours was playing in mainly a SWF, running a flashlight, and the group was actively trying to protect everyone that was being tunneled. The Trickster game, for example, the Trickster dropped chase with someone after hitting them to rush back to the unhook, ride their ass waiting out unhook BT, and instantly downed the person. But that didn't count as tunneling to Scott because there were two people hovering nearby to protect them. And in a lot of those games, the killer only got 3-4 hooks anyway. So it's not that there was no tunneling attempted, it's that the survivors were playing in a coordinated and aggressive way to pull aggro and prevent teammates from being tunneled. Which is 1.) Not how regular solo queue goes, and 2.) seen as the height of being a toxic bully squad from the killer community and excuse for maximal griefing when it doesn't work, which it won't because SOLO QUEUE.
Yeah, someone pointed this out in the survey too. I'm not often the weak link on the team, and when I am, I kinda just accept that as consequence. But when I can see that a teammate isn't getting to do anything, it's still a mood ruiner and can even ruin our chances at escape because the victim isn't really giving 2-gen chases.
His whole definition misses the forest for the trees. If, for example, a killer hard camps the first hook, downs the attempted unhook, forcing the second stage, hooks that person, and then immediately comes back to the hook to force the first person out, that's not tunneling at all according to him. They hooked someone else, after all, and survivors by not swarming the hook 'put the killer in that situation', so it's 'survivor induced,' which is total BS. Their intention from the start was to focus the person out ASAP. Does it really make a difference how? Likewise, just because a killer can't find someone they're trying to tunnel, doesn't mean they're not trying to tunnel. I expect a killer more often than not to drop chase the second there's an unhook, especially if it's one with mobility like Dredge/Sadako/Blight/Nurse to go straight back to the hook. He only counts tunneling if it's successful, when the expectation of it is already completely warping player behavior.
I don't think the problem is how much Tunneling is seen, I think the balance around how easy it is to do that is the problem. You talk about the killer going for the EASY target (which is fair) but when you add how easy it is to tunnel (the skill part) that isn't fair in a game where virtually every other aspect (Maps, pallets) are being reduced in size and strength. As for how much it is seen, I think that depends on your own experience. For me, it depends on the killers I see... I see more Blights doing it vs Trappers (as an example) Blights who are stronger than Trapper, can get to a hook faster, so in that sense I think that is a big balance problem. Not just for the game as a whole but tunneling itself.
From my experience when I was still playing, 1/3-1/2 of my games, the killer would either proxy and chase me directly off of hook, or would run/teleport back, and immediately gun for me, even when the person unhooking would take a hit. That's only the games where I was hooked at all, in games where I was not hooked, I witnessed similar happening to friends and randoms. So idk if location matters or time of day or what, but it seems like everyone has far different experiences. If I had to put a number on it, and exclude the self induced tunneling, I's say on average, people are getting tunneled about 1/4 of the total games they paly. Edit: Oh damn I was kinda close to what you got data wise.
There was a study done that found that it takes around 5 positive memories to cancel out 1 negative memory The reason I find this so interesting is, off this data, DbD players are having 9 positive matches for every 1 negative match (45/50 = 9/10) and STILL not letting it cancel out the negative match DbD players are quite literally psychological anomalies
The only anomaly is your math. The ratio of 9 positive matches to 1 negative match is not supported by the data you provided. The data you cited suggests it takes 5 positive memories to cancel out 1 negative memory, not a 9:1 ratio. Even if the ratio was 9:1, that does not necessarily mean the negative memories are not being "cancelled out." The 5:1 ratio from the original study is about the relative impact of positive vs. negative experiences, not a strict cancellation. Negative experiences can still have an effect even if outweighed by positive ones. Human psychology and response to experiences is complex and cannot be boiled down to a simple mathematical formula. The 5:1 ratio is a generalization, and individual responses can vary greatly based on many factors. Assuming DbD players are "psychological anomalies" based on this flawed math oversimplifies a complex issue. Player experiences and responses to a game can be influenced by many factors beyond just the ratio of positive to negative matches.
Or its indicative of a player base that really doesn't have positive thoughts about this game and they are just addicted to the game so all that stands out is the negative moments.
@@MightyBojangles It's not that deep man, I was just making a joke The joke is that it usually takes 5 positive memories to remember positive things but only 1 negative to remember the negative. In 50 games, 45 didn't have any tunneling, which simplifies to 10 games with 9 not having tunneling. The part of the DbD community looked at in this video tends to say they get tunneled more than not, which means they need not only more than 5 games to remember, but more than 9 games for every 1 game they get tunneled. The joke is that there's an irony to how a one-off scientific study differs from the players that complain about tunneling in this game. Hopefully I could help you understand the joke.
i often find myself finding survivor 1, down->hook->find survivor 2, down->hook->find survivor 1 again because their saviour hides in a corner,down->hook->find survivor 3, down->hook->find survivor 1 again because the team abandoned them and noone else is to be seen so i just kill them in the time it took survivor 4 to do one gen while 2 and 3 jerk each other off in the corner
Despite you saying that a large number of people polled shared a similar definition of tunnelling I don’t think that’s overall the case in the community. There are definitely a lot of subjective (and incorrect) opinions about what tunnelling actually is. Also context is important- if I get tunnelled or tunnel in end game I’m seeing that as totally normal behaviour. If a killer decides at 1 gen left they think the best action to win is tunnelling the recently unhooked survivor who is on death hook then so be it- it’s still “tunnelling” but if you’re expecting the killer not to make that decision then you’re asking the killer to lower their chances of winning for your fun. Don’t expect that of anyone and appreciate it if it happens to you, but don’t think it should be the norm.
I think I've been tunneled 1 time in the last few weeks. A Singularity literally was coming back to the hook as I was unhooked. I ran towards the pallet on Toba that is underneath the main building and the unhooker ran out into the open. The Singularity followed me, meanwhile we had 5 gens still to go. Kept following me until he downed me again. Then no one rescued after that. That is 1 game in about 30+ I've played in the last few weeks. It was frustrating as can be and I remember that more than the other 30 plus games I didn't get tunneled. Watching other DbD videos I see Survivors saying they are getting tunneled after getting hooked and then finishing a Gen and getting found again. To me it's just a fallback to why they lost and justifying it to themselves.
I had 20 games today and in 6 of them there was a hard core tunneler who no matter what just went for the same guy over and over, (Chucky, x2Deathslinger, Wesker, Wraith, Billy) It doesn't happen more than half the time and it may feel rare sometimes, but it's defiantly an issue within the game and kinda unhealthy. Not every survivor, every game gives up and kills themselves on hook, but I think we can all agree it dose happen, it happens more than it should, and it is a problem. same goes for tunneling.
I agree and I think that is something Scott is overlooking. He makes the point that survivors are tunnelled less frequently than they claim (which may be true for most), however he glosses over a ~20% tunnelling average as okay.... If tunnelling occurs in 1/5 matches then thats one in 5 matches that are ruined due to a systemic problem in the game. Something needs to be done to address "killer based tunnelling" just like the default anti camping and 3 genning changes that have made a big difference (for most killers).
@@finnian1118 Honestly I haven't had gen rushing as a problem in months. But maybe that's down to the killers that I play. If you are talking about more important inherent problems honestly I would've expected map imbalance and killer specific problems to turn up first.
@@finnian1118 Thats fair, I saw that the BNP changes made little difference to gen-rushing. What perks do you normally run? I almost always run Discordance because its great for finding and disrupting multiple survivors (especially those looking to gen rush).
I play on SEA servers, and for the longest time I've been convinced that SEA servers are quite a bit sweatier than other servers. I'm planning on going for 1000 games to get as much data as possible, and I have VERY strict applications for what counts as tunneling - has to be killer-induced, and I have to KNOW it was killer-induced, and it has to be specifically going out of there way to get the person out of the match. That is to say, I'm not counting instances where survivors played stupid or hid from the killer basically forcing a tunnel. Preliminary data from 25 games, I have had 7 tunnelers (28%) and on average they tunneled at 3 gens. Of all the killers, 8 of them (32%) slugged for the 4K, and 60% of all killers who were on steam (which is the vast majority) had a private profile or were anonymous. Just to clarify, all things being equal as it stands, that is 7 times more tunneling on the SEA servers than on the US servers by your report.
There's a game I remember vividly where a killer RELENTLESSLY chased/downed/hooked me, to the point of ignoring absolutely all the generators and other survivors just to find me so I would die on hook and could no longer play the game. I swear, I could've glitched outside of the map and he would've spent the entire game trying to glitch out as well just to get me. When you're playing at such an obvious deficit to you at the expense of ensuring that one person has absolutely no fun whatsoever, that's infuriating.
I think I'm tunneled more than you were. But I still don't think it's 20% or anything like that. Two things. 1: If you're going off the UI - as I often do - it's hard to tell why someone is being tunneled. So it can appear a killer is tunneling because they're annoying, even though maybe the survivor was just sandbagged/sandbagging. 2. If someone gets hooked, come off the hook and immediately go back on the hook, they'll typically say they're being tunneled. Even if they're not actually killed in this sequence, I think the feeling/fear of being tunneled can't really be understated. That it doesn't happen twice in a row doesn't necessarily make it feel less bad.
I had a game 1 night where i got giga tunneled by a wraith, proxy camped the hook and came for only me. So next game i put on DS, OTR, dead hard for the rest of the night. Was not tunneled again a single time and remembered why i dont run anti tunnel. Its just not that common, so i happily went back to my background player flashbang the next gaming sesh 😈
I've been playing in Asia for the past 8 months (I usually play US West). The killers here tunnel more often than not. They also give hatch extremely rarely (almost never) and tend to pull out all the stops to get a 4k.
Yeah when I play late at night beyond 11 or midnight half my killers are Chinese players VPNing and the tunneling is relentless, so far I find it is VERY rare for a Chinese killer to have any chill. I got my first chill one the other day playing pig who was about to win and they knew it so they let us boop and meme and leave. First chill Chinese killer I’ve ever seen, the PvP culture there seems pretty different
I love how survivors can play as optimally as they want but when someone unhooks in front of my face and i go after that hooked person bcuz i know thats the optimal play, im literally "ruining the game experience". Meanwhile no one ever talks about boil over, flip flopping in a unhookable corner on eyrie and yet will complain about camping when you try to make sure that person goes down close to the hook again so they cant try that tactic. no one ever talks about survivors letting people die on hook for hatch, but when a killer slugs for hatch it immediately becomes a problem. I remember i once went up against a swf as hag that was calling out my traps and they had at least 2 background players and would constantly get the save even when i did try to scare them off or face a wall. Whenever i picked someone up, they would immediately trigger and run away from all my traps bcuz they knew i couldnt teleport while carrying. They ran to each pallet and the map and worked together as well as they could, all while tbagging and emoting. I was getting my ass beat and they were having the time of their life. So in order to even the field, i tunneled one guy off of hook once after they unhooked in my face.....immediately he killed himself on hook after not moving and giving up. Complained in end game about boring match as welI. I never tunnel tbh and that was like my first time doing it, but i dont see why i shouldnt just....hardcore tunnel someone out at 5 gens everytime now. Survivors can literally play and do anything and be free of persecution from one another. I was first under the idea that im runing someone's. But now i see that tbh, people just dont wanna lose, simple as that. Its just a bunch of sore losers.
As a killer main, there aren't many times I'll actively tunnel. It's usually when I'm losing a game, and i need to get someone out quick to get more pressure. Other than that, it'll be the survivors fault. Examples being if they body block with base BT, if they are quite literally everywhere I'm looking and no one else is around, if their teammates leave them on hook till stage 2, and if they BU+FTP a teammate after i down them (they are begging for it by using that combo)
Something I never see anyone mention that is also a factor, is the cosmetic choices of survivors. If you're wearing lighter or bright colors, the killer is going to see you more easily than the survivors that aren't wearing those colors. The charms are also cosmetics to consider as well. When I look around to see where the unhooked survivor and their rescuer are, and David is hiding in a bush with dark colored clothes, and neon pink Feng is running away, I'm going to go after what caught my attention. I also see a lot of survivors unhook too early. I often can't even leave the proximity before I get the notification and turn around to see 2 or more survivors. After I hook someone, I B-line to a generator, but if I hear the unhook notification, I'm going to investigate. Let me fecking leave the area for god's sake.
Scott the issue isn't that its everywhere, otherwise we'd all just run anti tunneling perks and win, the issue is you have no way to prepare for it and when it happens it's just "oh okay so I guess I'm not having fun"
You can call me crazy but i like beeing tunnelt by the killer just because i dont see it as not allowed to having fun i see it as a personal 1v1 where the better player wins yeah many times i die quickly but many times i dont but i get it that many players hate it
My friend she’s tunneled every match if she plays good they will ignore anyone else until she’s dead even if they’re doing gens right by chase so it’s common but not for everyone I guess
I have noticed less tunneling since the base BT, and even more now with grim embrace. Healthy changes like this promote less tunneling, not to say tunneling isn't a strategy still used it sure is. It probably depends on if killers are seeing more anti-tunneling perks in their games in respects to it. Even then I like being tunneled as a survivor so it's whatever. Proxy camping on the other hand happens about the same, as unhooking yourself hardly happens.
@@sherif7491Generators are inanimate objects, not players. Tunneling makes one player unable to play the game, ruining that person's game. Gen rushing does not make the Killer unable to pilot his character. They are not even remotely the same.
True, people complain that tunneling is not fun because you die fast and don't get many points but the same exact thing can happen with toolboxes, gen perks and good gen efficency, everyone is out after 4 minutes and you have 2 hooks. What exactly is the difference here?
@@mordantpotency410 But the killer is a player and gen rushing ruins their game. Your mindset is part of the problem. Just because the way they do it is slightly different doesn't mean it doesn't ruin each others game. They are each sides equivalent. It's an asym game so of course they will differ some in execution, but the end result is the same: ruining the other sides experience to win ASAP. Either both are ok or both aren't, stop the hypocrisy.
I believe people get tunneled often. But I think it's across the player-base as a whole. I like to believe I get tunneled often, but I don't. It does happen more frequently than I would wish it did, but it's not as often as I project. My problem with tunneling is how often people are experiencing it and how powerful it is. There should be no reason the Killer can go after someone right after they are taken off the Hook. I do also believe that in some situations, players feel that tunneling is necessary or fundamental to the gameplay. Personally, I think that it's lame and unfun for both sides. No Killer wants to resort to that when they're playing well, and no Survivor wants it to come to that. Killers playing badly should be punished, same with Survivor. Survivors playing badly should be punished. But there shouldn't be "feel-better" mechanics that allow one side to comeback from those situations. Tunneling shouldn't be rewarded as heavily as it is, and the most it should do is have the Killer throw the entire match. Survivors body-blocking shouldn't be rewarded in my opinion either, as it only causes more problems for both sides, like the example you stated in your video with Survivor induced tunneling.
The tunneling issue is such a difficult thing to fix because sometimes tunneling can feel like such a necessity when someone is running problematic perks like buckle up+ftp or background player as keeping them in the game only causes issues later on which can cost the win
the problem is that tunneling is so much better than any other strategy by a large margin and something should be done about it regardless of how often it happens
I had a game just yesterday were a guy complained about being tunneled afterwards. All four survivors made it to the end game and I’m pretty sure everyone was on death hook… I got the win but it made me feel like, “What else am I supposed to do? Just not hook survivors I’ve already hooked before?” Especially right now when I’m seeing multiple sables or entire sable SWF in a game. I have no idea who is who when the match gets intense sometimes but I’ll get told my play style is 💩I want people to have fun playing against me. I don’t want to just grief survivors but I feel like you can’t win on killer sometimes with the community.
At work - I can have 20 "good/okay" days. Every now and then - I have a SHIT day at work. In my head, I'm likely saying to everyone that I have a shit job and it's stressful etc. But in reality, it isn't. The bad just lingers harder and for longer.
I am a killer main and I aim for 12 hook games. I count my hook states per person so I know when someone is on death hook and can then avoid them until a reasonable amount of hook states are on other people. And yet I have had people in post game lobbies chastise me for tunneling even when they escaped... Survivors seems to think hooked twice in a row is a tunnel.
Something I notice from playing with randoms, is that survivors love to call anything tunneling, they’ll be hooked, get unhooked, then the killer chases me, and hooks me, then the killer finds them, and the survivor says it’s tunneling, because they got found once more. The other scenario I see is that survivors think that only finding the same two survivors you are simultaneously tunneling the both of them. Lastly, survivors think tunneling makes them the worst person on the planet when they’re just taking what they can get. I always point out others mistakes when they claim tunneling with me.
I usually always try to "play nice," but if I go back to a hook and someone unhooks, and then the healthy survivor goes somewhere safe while the unhealthy survivor puts themselves into a disadvantageous position, I'm going for the unhealthy one lol
Most people’s bad days aren’t actually them getting kicked while they’re down, it’s just one bad moment they drag out throughout the day. Of course it still happens, but the amplitude between is vastly different.
People will never stick to strict definitions because then they can't fall back on tunneling as an excuse for why they lost. Same with camping, I've been told by multiple people that I was facecamping from outside facecamp timer range, nearly halfway across the map. I don't see tunneling as any different than just being efficient on gens. Sometimes the best option is to just tunnel someone, simple as that. It's not some personal attack, it's just playing the game. Almost always it's because they rushed for the unhook too soon, or healed under hook. They try to save time, I do the same.
My experience seems to be that it depends on the night, sometimes you have nights where it doesnt happen othertimes you get nights where its every other game or a few in a row and it typically gets worse around rank reset so i think it would be interesting to see this experience across a longer time frame rather than a wider pool
I'm not a video maker, but one time I did record, out of 50 games, how many times I was: A. first person found in the match. Result was 32 out of 50 games, and B. Tunneled. 18 times, 14 out of the games previously stated. Obviously MMR is invisible but if I had to guess I sit right at or slightly above the soft cap? But nowhere near 2000's. There's a lot of variables as you said. Is it still tunneling if another person takes hits and goes down for you, and you wiggle so they hook the guy who went down for you and then they are right back on you? Someone else took a hook but it was only out of presenting themselves for it. Can you tunnel multiple people at a time? if you hook someone, then hook someone else while they are still hanging there, then when they get unhooked you tunnel them then hook them again by the time the other person gets unhooked rinse repeat etc? Is running a killer for 5 gens being tunneled? You didn't die but the killer didn't target anyone else or even flat out ignored them. Just because you had a positive result doesn't mean it wasn't tunneling. Is it still tunneling at 1 and 5 gens or is there a cut off? The worst part about it really is though when you just accept you are getting tunneled so you just stand at the hook and they slug you so you can't even go to the next game where you have (depending on elo) any where between a 15 and 40% chance of getting another killer who behaves exactly the same way.
I think the key issue with all of this is the fact that tunneling has been operationalized as “focusing one person until they die.” Honestly, you and me both knew that was a rare circumstance to begin with. I think when it comes to tunneling, the thing which people complain about is the ease to which tunneling can suddenly be applied to immensely great effect. No killer player who calls themselves good will overtly tunnel to win all their games. For example, someone gets unhooked? It can become extremely easy from an opportunistic lens to go back to hook, stop the heal, willingly ‘tunnel’ the unhooked survivor to get a 2nd hook and stop ‘tunneling’ after that. However, because of that early play, the killer player (if they have good gamesense) can essentially pressure that vulnerable survivor throughout the rest of the match. I could have hooked plenty other people but now I technically never tunneled by your definition. It is already well known by good DBD players that ‘tunneling’ two survivors at once is a far stronger macro strategy that not-so-good killer players rarely employ. Additionally, the opportunity for tunneling best arrises at different points of a match. The first survivor I hooked was really strong in chase? I probably shouldn’t tunnel them. Now, what if they were on 2nd hook and I proxied such that I can ensure that survivor won’t have a chance to heal or escape. I still technically didn’t focus one guy until death but employed the principle of tunneling at the right time and place. Don’t get me wrong, I think this data is extremely valuable, and a good stepping point to see the general consensus on the perceptions of tunneling. But as I wholly believe, tunneling is far more nuanced than what has been given. If at that point we disagree that what I am describing is no longer ‘tunneling’ then there is no point in further discussion.
I keep my DBD stats in my own Excel sheet. I only play solo q. The definition of tunneling for me when I do these stats is; that the killer will go for the recently hooked survivor and trying to down them, even though there are other survivors around in sight. Granted, I could be wrong in some minor cases because I wasn't there to see what actually happens. But in many times, I can see on the HUD that the survivor who was just unhooked is in chase again, and the one that did the unhooking is not. Out of 700 matches (so far), the killers tunneled 22 % of the time. This was between 2023-11-22 and 2024-04-07 on EU servers. So my experience is very different :).
If I understand correctly, your definition of tunneling seems pretty different from Scott's, which would account for that difference. If you're only noting whether the survivor gets chased after getting unhooked, then that is not really tunneling someone out of the game, as in only going after the recently unhooked survivor and ignoring everybody else until that person is dead. Especially on the HUD, the chase symbol could mean the unhooked survivor accidentally ran into the killer or the person who rescued is hiding, leaving the killer no other target.
@@moputopia I meant "going for.." as in chasing them trying to down them. I should have made that clear, although, I don't know why else the killer would chase the survivor.
I think a lot of people only hate tunneling when it works out for the killer. If the killer tries to tunnel and the survivor still does well and escapes, that's not a problem. It's only an issue if the survivor gets tunneled and dies.
I feel like it’s killer dependent. Wesker is tunnel king in my games. The moment that unhook happens whiskers comes zooming back like his family is being held hostage and the only way to free them is to tunnel lol.
One thing I've noticed tho are scenarios where survivor induced tunneling turns into straight up tunneling. Like either a killer just thinks "they're death hook, might as well kill them". Or I take a hit, barely use the speedboost, and they go back on the survivor, with sometimes more distance to them than I do.
Realistically... it seems to be mainly a problem starting around the 4th or 5th before reset. The really good killers Irr early and then are chill... the bad have to sweat to get those last pips.
Would be asking a lot if you put up the vod of the 50 games if possible or is it available on your twitch page to watch. It would be nice to have to watch in the background while working, etc…
I think buying Zarina for her "Off the record" really helps, before I bought her I get tunneled from time to time but after buying her I no longer get tunneled! 😁
Hey loved the video. I still am trying to understand what tunneling is kinda and thankfully you kinda helped me understand that lol. Although kinda curious and not sure if this is something you have spoken on this or not but isn't the thing of "killer chasing a single survivor for the entirety of a match but never able to down or hook them." count as tunneling to? like a subcategory? I've seen and played vs killers that do this kind of thing and was just curious if that is something that could be taken into account? I know the tunneling in this video is more on the player side but just curious if this kind of thing does or doesn't fall into it too. Still though keep up the great work and hope more newbs like me learn from your wisdom.
I think the way to see if tunneling is a problem in a region, try to find out what the meta is in that region if possible. If tunneling would be a problem, I would think the meta in the place would show it
Basically, players are spoilt. That's what I gather from this. A couple of bad games and they have a hissy fit. I have played since 2016, been camped and tunnelled countless times. I still play the game. I don't play it as often now for other reasons but camping and tunneling in my own experience were not nearly as common as many make it out to be. If anything, I get more frustrated when team mates all ditch the gens to come save me. In the few games that I do get camped and tunnelled, I would be more happy if the team mates rushed the gens and all 3 escaped. The killer would have lost the game badly and my bad experience would not have been for nothing.
Im ngl ive had days where all games are awesome and nice killers play nice, surv play nice, and im having fun no matter if i win or lose. And then the next day comes its 10 blight or nurses back to back and we have one person dead by the time the first gen is done, and then the next day you have in every game the first downed who kills themselves right from the start of the game, this game's experience is just like the maps, extremely volatile
I run Floods of Rage on almost all my Plague builds and it is insane how many survivors unhook and I see them slowly walk away to some random hiding spot because they can't heal under hook. "Oh? I can't heal them? I guess I'll just THROW THEM UNDER THE BUS!"
I get tunneled so infrequently that I can't even remember the last time it happened to me, despite it being a rare occurrence. Even if I get tunneled, I don't give a shit. It's a vidya game. Queue for another match. Spectate your friends for a bit and relax. None of it means anything. Let it ride, people. Everything will be okay.
In my experience I can go hours without any real tunnelling but then I will log in one day and it will be back to back hard tunnelling. I don't think it happens in every match for anyone but it does happen more than it should imo
I use DS every game and mostly don’t get use unless I force it. If you want to know how many games you are actually getting tunneled, use DS/OTR and see how many times you get use out of the stun/endurance AND you didn’t purposely avoid working on a generator or doing a conspicuous action to get use out of the perk.
My thing is: if survivors are purposely taking a hit with off hook BT its not tunneling its you throwing yourself infront of a killer its only logical expect to get hit
The funniest convo I had recently involved a survivor bitching I tunneled him. I hooked him first, and his SWF duo unhooked him in my face, so to protect his rescuer, he literally body blocked me in Lery's so i could not get around him to hit his rescuer, so I just hit him and he ran into a wall, so I downed and hooked him again. Second unhook, they heal under hook, and he body blocks me a second time, so I hit him, he borrowed times to a pallet, messed up the mind game, and I killed him. Post game he was screaming at me. Turned out to be a small streamer and he was legitimately screaming at his monitor. It was just.... weird.
I think proxy camping the hook is a bigger issue that leads to what is perceived as tunneling. The killer knows you inevitably need to go and unhook survivors so it makes too much sense to hang around the hook and just go get a cheap down as soon as someone comes then rinse repeat. I think they should increase the timer by maybe x3 times for when you are on hook, so that if the killer wants to hang around they'll have to waste a lot of time.
It largely depends on the MMR as well as the killer being played (which also vary based on the MMR). I think it's hard to take a sample of 50 personal games for that reason.
slightly random, but something interesting to check would be how many players that mostly play in teams of 3 or 4 also see higher amounts of tunneling (higher than 50%). It's entirely possible that low mmr survivors are queueing up with multiple high mmr survivors and create a scenario where they are the weak link every game for the entire play session. I have this theory because I'm a killer main with less than 1k hours on survivor, and when I queue up with my friends I get hardcore tunneled WAY more often than when I play solo.
Facts even tho I did have a blight try to "tunnel" me earlier it was the only game today that happened. He had barbeque and lethal and definitely saw me as a weak link since it was my first game on but I still got out using lockers/iron will
I don’t like tunneling but if I’m at the beginning of a round and I find the first person only for two gens to pop I immediately have to go into damage control and kill 1 person as quickly as possible. Sorry for the first person but I need to win and eventually the other survivors realize it and stop doing gens which ironically feels like a fairer game.
I'll always remember a match I had as doctor against 4 Bills in identical cosmetics all with no items. Literally just kept chasing whichever Bill I happened to find but apparently I still tunneled one of them
Great video! I do think that a part of the problem of tunneling that you didn’t mention was that, yes, tunneling may not happen as often as people say; however, when it does rarely happen it feels really bad, self induced or not. And the argument around tunneling isn’t necessarily how do we remove tunneling from the game, but how do we change the game so that when tunneling does happen, it doesn’t feel as bad
On top of it being overblown who cares if you get tunneled. What else is there to do, sit on gens? If I get tunneled on survivor and get a good chase in I'm happy. I had a bubba face camping and trying to tunnel me out the whole match yesterday and it was super fun. Everyone else was able to escape and I got my loops in. If anything I'm more annoyed when teammates get tunneled cause then all I can really do is gens
I mean with that logic you are always less likely to get tunneled due to three other players so more often than not you will have matches where you just have to sit on gens due to tunneling. Or you know, a killer spreads out their chase effectively slowing more than one player down in a match so they can get more than maybe 2 kills a match.
@@ReactiveDeactive Yeah I agree! But 99% of the time people are complaining about themselves getting tunneled, not their teammates. If people complained about teammates getting tunneled and having to sit on gens all game I'd honestly agree
why not make it so that the killer has to get like 5 hooks total to get his first kill then 8 for the second, then 11 and then the last one gets killed immediatly (the numbers can change). That way tunneling doesn't do anything and then balance the game around that. The game also finally becomes more of a team game then a solo game.
I played a lot of random survivors on discord and they treat Killer as if they're bots that has no eye balls. Freely running out in the open going for the save and then crying when the Killer is 'camping'.
In the last few month I got tunneled about 3 times that I remember. One time by a Trickster who hooked me in basement and waited for my anti tunnel to proc, then proceeded to only go for me. Still 4 gens left while I was his only hook. The second time was a Wraith who actually felt bad afterwards since I was the only one in the match who wasn solo. He went after me when he had the feeling that it was the only thing he could do, besides the fact that 2 gens were left, so fine. The third time was a Huntress who tunneled me out after I got unhooked out of basement, hitting stage 2 so she could get a mori. One gen left so I don't bother about it that much. Tunneling might be annoying but the context to why a killer does it is important too. I don't get tunneled often, sometimes I go down for a friend so I wont count that as tunneling.
Watching this after I get hard tunneled from the beginning of the match, killer only hooked me. Ignored every other player until I died, couldn't even touch a generator the entire match. I had anti tunnelling perk and it made no difference because even after using DS there was no distance made enough for me to do anything. Tunnelling is in almost every match, if it's not me then it's someone else. BHVR encourages tunnelling and even some killers abilities do like wesker.
11:31 Yup that's when me and my friends usually play and I do notice that we usually overall just have more chaotic and unpredictable killers than during the day so extra tunneling in those hours wouldn't surprise me a bit
I get tunneled a lot. I also TRY to get tunneled as usually i have the most hours in my lobbies. Usually my death is my team's W so i don't mind all that much.
As someone that used to play mostly killer I didnt like to tunnel that much, but I had one simple rule: If u finish a gen on my face that means you are not afraid of tunneling. So yeah I think most of the tunneling are induced by survivors
I tend to tunnel more with weaker killers. The unhooker disappears and I got no choice unless I'm playing Billy or Legion that can seek out the unhooker better
Not counting “survivor induced” tunneling is very generous to killers. The killer is always the one who chooses who to chase, down, and hook. Tunneling is always tunneling and it’s always lame
idm not counting the survivor induced tunneling because there have been times where I got hooked, the killer went to check gens and everyone on gens hid, so the killer comes back to the hook after ive been unhooked and the unhooker hides, so he goes for me, like in that position its understandable, but the thing that I feel is a little unfair is those times when teammates have to go outof their way and give the killer a free hit / put themselves in a really bad spot JUST to take the heat off the unhooked person, which will ultimately lead to a quick down and short chase. I feel like we shouldn't have to throw ourselves at the killer and put ourselves in a really crap spot just to stop a person from being tunneled, it's almost like we have to give the killer a free hit to even tempt him into wanting to go for us instead of the unhooked, which puts us at a disadvantage depending on positioning etc.
Scott "the Lich" Jund regains his youth every time he shaves and looks like he's 20 again.
Hey come on, give him some credit. He sacrificed 20 basement Invocation Sable's for that look
For real I thought this was an old video lmao
Scott Young
I thought he is around 20? He looks a third of my age anyway lol
My favorite genre of Scott jund comments are the ones that completely ignore the video topic and instead discuss the overarching lore
Scott, I think a big problem is that the community that watches your vids aren't the same casuals who think survivor induced tunneling is different from killer induced tunneling. I agree that it is completely overblown, but that it's the communities fault because they're uneducated on it, generally speaking. I also think educating the community is a monumental task, and casuals won't ever understand the difference.
Yup, I completely agree. A large portion of the complaints are actually just straight up misguided people not knowing the tunneling they're receiving is almost entirely their fault. I keep talking about it in hopes people will learn the difference so the overall complaint levels will go down, but whether or not its a fruitless endeavor doesn't really matter much because I still like discussing it.
@@ScottJund It's still unhealthy for the game IMO. Whether it happens every game or 1 in 20 or whatever is irrelevant. There's a better way for the game to be played so that more people are engaged for longer. Whether it's reducing the 'free' info killers getting on tunnel victims or making it impossible to kill anyone before 5-6 hooks or something else, there's loads of ideas to combat it and even the 'fear' of it happening.
@Peachrocks5 well in this game u either completely destroy them or they completely destroy u I was playing matches where I would tunnel and be downing them pretty quicke but gens kept flying like crazy and eventually lose
one way not to get tunneled is not to go back to the gen or place the killer found you out. If your being a dick as a survivor always flashlighting always being a dick to the killer abusing perks @@ScottJund
@@ScottJund it's kinda pointless, people refuse to play in a certain way or learn how to avoid getting into a bad situation until they complain enough to get that thing removed.
IMO, tunnelling as of now is generally a non issue. In equal skill / gear matches, actual tunnelling is not an issue as survivors that arent completely outclassed and are putting effort to win can delay the kill long enough to get through the last gens and get really high chances of escaping pretty consistently. Not even counting the possible teamwork to prevent pick ups / hooks. 1-2 antitunnelling perks, good performance and awareness that killer won't leave you no matter what can make tunnelling for the kill in first 3 hooks a surefire way to throw the game for the killer. Most basic example - predropping god pallet and making 30 seconds worth of W key distance and having killer follow you, because they have put themselves in a situation where they can't drop the chase. People often fail to recognise when hardtunnel is going to happen and dont play accordingly and that is really their fault.
In other conditions, it's not worth talking about as "balance" issue because if survivors are outclassed by the killer, it doesnt matter how they play, they would still win.
What is the ACTUAL issue is that tunnelling is not fun or rewarding, especially for the survivor that is being targeted or other people that watch their teammate get downed and hooked repeatedly. I really hope devs will for once put effort into making such scenarios still be somewhat enjoyable / rewarding variation of a match, instead of again inventing a system that nerfs killers by stripping them of a strategic choice in a match and forcing them to play in a particular way people are used to.
And ofc, it really doesn't happen that often, agreed. In my matches as the survivor I rarely experience actual tunnelling.
Scott is the type of guy to pull up with a powerpoint presentation to a DBD video.
Yeah, the issue that I run into as killer is that any time a survivor decides to play ballsy and loses immediately, they're going to complain about tunneling.
Dwight: "I'm going to sprint immediately to the hook despite the killer still being there."
That Same Dwight: "I'm going to chase the killer to flashlight stun him every time he goes for a hook."
Still Dwight: "I'm going to bodyblock the killer while on death hook."
Dwight in post-game chat: "Why do killers always tunnel???"
I'm not following YOU, you're following ME.
Also, sometimes, when you're wearing glowing neon pink clothing and I can't find anybody else, you're gonna die first.
Part of the reason why some people claim they get tunnelled "all the time" is because they forget the times they weren't tunnelled
Yeah he mentioned that in the video.
Other theory. The people who play late are more irritable, and therefore remember or feel they remember the negative experiences of getting tunneled more...
It's not a big problem till it happens three games in a row and I just don't want to play the game for a week after.
yeah its possible to roll the dice that badly and have a rough time unfortunately
@@ScottJund And yet every time you make a video about something dumb on Twitter, you get people calling you an idiot. Very unlucky, maybe one of these times it'll stick.
Just play killer. 4Head
@@ScottJund This is how i usually see tunnling go . Im hardly the victim . But i wont see it for games and games . Then 3 or 4 games in a row the killer will just go for the rando hooked first . Also most of the time if the killer is going straight back to the hook , he is going for the unhooked guy . That is a pre determined action . However me personally i hardly feel i get tunneled much . Never run second chance perks .
Usually most complaints about tunneling or rushing and so on come down to player agency. Players want to play, and being either hurried out of the match or never getting a choice in what you do harms the experience. The technicalities behind tunneling and its definitions and scenarios are less important than acknowledging that an individual player can indeed be shut out of experiencing the match as intended.
dbd moment
What a based yet insane comment. There are technicalities in the game that cause the behavior we identify as tunneling, and the way we feel about tunneling is that it's bad. So wouldn't the technicalities be more important than focusing on the feeling that result from the technicalities?
Yea, this is pretty much the one thing I never see anyone talk about and I'm kinda annoyed that nobody does. I don't think there's any other game I've ever played where I've been denied my ability to participate in the game. I don't care if I win or lose, that doesn't matter to me. What does matter to me is whether or not I can play the game and queuing just to be forced to watch a dynamic wallpaper every like 1 in 7 to 10 games is not fun. Winning is fun most of the time. Losing can be fun sometimes. What isn't fun and never will be is not being able to play the game. At least as killer, you're still able to go around and do things. It's not like every time you get stunned it lasts for 30 seconds or something. People also tend to forget that "skill issues" is kinda hard to debate around because dbd is an asymmetrical game and the fact that map rng is such a huge element to the gameplay. The players you lose to in symmetrical games, you can do the same back to them because you both have access to the same resources and abilities. In that case, yea it really is a skill issue or some other small factors
Lopunny is the hottest Pokemon
@@cookiesalad13 i fundamentally disagree that getting tunneled is you "not participating in the game". in fact, you are the entire game. the entire game centers around you, which is why i like actually getting tunneled
For me, tunnelling only maddens me when the killer does it at 5/4 gens, as it's a boring play style and can effectively end someone's game very quickly. I expect it to happen at 1/2 gens, and if I'm the unlucky one getting tunnelled then... well, at least I'll leave the game with some decent points for doing gens/healing etc throughout the early game.
So it's more about WHEN tunnelling happens, as the killer player's mindset to just choose someone and aggressively go after them all the time from the start isn't easily counterable - especially in solo queue or if you have the wrong perks for it. So when killers moan about seeing OTR, Dead Hard, etc, all the time... it's simply because survivor players who play a lot want to safe guard their chances of being able to play a trial for longer than 4 mins.
I'll tunnel at 4 gens if I keep getting same dude coming up and body blocking me from chasing someone else, if they do that I'm putting them back down regardless of how many gens are left.
@@oneautumnleaf2622 Yeah that’s fair. I’m speaking more about survivors who have done nothing to “deserve” it, but are chased and targeted until death almost immediately and maybe did nothing in the game except lose two chases and maybe do a gen if they were lucky.
@@danowen79 Yeah but like scott showcased, that REALLY isnt as common as people like to make it out to be.... and dont make it all about you sometiimes you were just the weakest link on the team and the killer wants to pressure that link to break the chain, sometimes getting a easy down is a great way to throw the teams balancing off. I think you would be suprised at how much tunneling is actually tunneling, bc most of the games I get its people put ting themselves in these situations or doing something greedy or stupid and getting punished as a result. if I find you and ive been looking for others I could care less if I just hooked you, II found you Im downing you, thats just me playing the game. Im not going to pretend I didnt see you.
@@oneautumnleaf2622 Yeah. To me tunnelling is typically when you’re unhooked and the killer comes back and aggressively goes after you again until you’re hooked again, rather than focus on the rescuer, at 4/5 gens. That’s when it gets to me. You can get lucky by having perks on to make it frustrating, or the rng of a map will help, or you outplay the killer in loops - but the game is designed around killers being able to down a survivor under 60 seconds. So a tunneller can remove someone in under 5 mins and it’s not fun. The other 3 survivors likely lose the trial too as 3v1 favours the killer
No amount of perks can stop the tunneling, you need survivors on gens, you need a good map, good pallets and it all means nothing if it’s a nurse. However, the only times I have been “hardcore tunneled” was against a huntress and I could tell it was personal, he really didn’t like me, but the entire time I was like: “who are you?” I don’t remember players names so his entire malicious actions were just on his head, I went into the next match like nothing happened
People forgot what unhook farming is
Farming means insta-downing an unhooked surv with no effort. That has been removed from the game with basekit BT, and it's not really "farming" anymore because you have to make a dedicated effort towards downing that unhooked person.
@@larsliamvilhelmif you unhook in my face I'm putting that same surv back on the hook. It's called efficiency
@@humbletotodile Yeah but it takes more work with basekit BT to get the same surv back on the hook than to just down the unhooker though.
@@larsliamvilhelmnot really its still just 2 hits
@larsliamvilhelm just run distortion so the killer can't find anyone else.
In all seriousness though sounds a little like the anticamp meter. Killers can't be right in the survivors face anymore but even though they are proxying they are somewhat still ironically playing dbd again.
Honestly I think a large reason why it feels shitty to not win in this game is cause of how little you get when you lose, despite your time investment. When you get tunneled it feels even worse. I honestly am struggling to want to play this game after Blood Moon cause of how little BPs I get. Losing would not feel so bad if Blood Moon BPs was permanent. The grind is way too vast even for someone who has a lot of time if they have a lot of characters. I can’t imagine how bad it is for a more casual player.
If you follow the bloodpoint bonus and not just play survivor the whole timee you will see that the bloodpoints actually come pretty easily. This is what I usually do and I can't spend them fast enough.
even when i win sometimes i dont get a ton of stuff unless there was a couple bp offerings
Yea that whole event made me realize just how weak the BP gain is even after the permabuff a while back.
And with the addition of each new character dlc the grind just gets a little bit worse. I loved the immense blood points you got during the event and almost immediately lost motivation to play once it ejded
The big big big whammy of discouragement is when the game is running multiple stacked blood point bonuses togethers, so you get +500% survivor blood points off your tunneled score of 600 - which is a whopping 3600, rather than the 36000 you would have gotten any day of playing killer WHILE LOSING.
It used to be you could "win" without actually killing anyone if you were playing well enough. I've played for 12 hooks for the vast majority of my "career" in DBD, and ever since they moved away from using Emblems to rate performance the game has suffered for it. Making the only thing that matters be "did you kill more than 2 survivors?" has made tunneling look more and more attractive to Killers whose sole focus is winning.
Similarly, making the sole method of winning for Survivors be "did you escape?" has caused a similar problem, where anything other than an escape feels like the game is looking down on your efforts. I used to play giga healing builds as a Survivor and play fully altruistically because even though I suck at chases I could still "win" if I did a couple Gens and unhooked+healed people before I died.
These things combined have massively widened the division between Killers and Survivors. The niggling reminder in the back of your head that you're "losing" even though you're playing well has frustrated players, and many of them lash out at their opponents because they "make them lose" instead of it being possible for both sides to win with good play. You could 8 hook survivors and pip, while they also all pip, and everyone walks away thinking "that was fun" because no one "lost".
I know the Emblem system has its own issues, but I really wish BHVR would take it back into consideration. I'm sure it's much, MUCH easier to manage matchmaking when you base things on something as binary as kills/surviving, but it is super damaging to everyone's enjoyment of the game to make things so cut and dry. The Emblem system obfuscates how "bad" you played, making it easier to look at blood points earned or getting an Iri Emblem in certain categories so the PLAYER can decide if they feel like they won, instead of the stark feeling of "nope, you died so you suck LOL".
Sorry for the wall of text, hope you're doing well Scoot.
Bro wrote a lil essay on dbd in a youtube comment section🤓☝️
Completely agree, I also miss being able to adept a killer while still giving hatch to last man standing, (especially when I downed them but having the safety net for the RNG part of it was also nice)
@@cornpop838well done you’re everyone is clapping champ
Totally agree. There was 3 games I played in which I would say I got tunneled for all 3 in a row. The first one, the clown had one hook at 1 gen left. Good 3 gen, and he tunneled me out. Me not being a good survivor, I understand that. Totally valid and definitely necessary to attempt to bring the game back. The next two however: A p100 nurse followed by a p100 blight, both with 4 slowdowns AND map offerings (midwich and autohavens respectively) tunneled me out at 5 gens. I doublechecked later a found I had the least hours of my team both times (not sure if that played a role, just interesting to note). Whilst it’s not fair to take the game outside of the game to get angry at those players, that did indeed stop me from playing any more.
Additional note: I usually don’t see tunneling at all. It was just an unfortunate few games in a row.
That poor guy who gets tunneled the most by Otzdarva... 8:37
people have old ds engraved into their brains so much that they think that if they get hooked in that amount of time they are getting tunneled
i love when i get unhooked right in front of the killer and the killer completely ignores the unhooker, so i stand still cause im getting tunneled at 3 gens and not having fun, then get slugged for 4 minutes cause the killer goes “why were you trolling” in endgame chat
Only give up when your on hooks, don't ever afk boots on the ground
@@jacobharper9236 if i get unhooked and my unhooker runs off to hide while we’re in the terror radius im giving up, im straight up getting farmed
But always remember that is the killers fault because nothing is every survivors fault. Pisses me off when my teammates are being chased and their first thought if let's go unhook......fuck off. If I die on hook because the other two don't unhook while you are being chased, so be it. But don't try to throw the killers attention onto me by unhooking me mid chase because you don't want to be chased (probably the biggest issue with this game and survivors, too many of them want to hide/sit on gens)
And you blame the killer? Because that's your teammate fault.If there is 1 gen at 80% And the killer kick it Right in front of you, what do you do? Do you continue repairing it as soon as the killer is gone or do you ignore it and go to repair another one?
@@kruxez when did i say it was the killers fault, i literally said my team mate is unhooking and farming me
There's a lot of healing under hook, as well occasions in which both leave for a safer spot, but one or the other player does not have a plan to heal afterwards. I would guess there's a lot of players that have seen PopularStreamer heal under hook, and don't notice the contextual information they use to decide that's safe-ish.
@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN Really can’t say I agree. Half the unhook protection comes in the form of haste; and a killer that’s trying to pressure other stuff before tunneling only knows about the hook position, not the victim’s position 15 seconds later.
If they were plainly camping, then unhook as late as possible and run. If they gave some space or got in a nearby chase but you think they may return, at least give a bit of distance and some visual cover, so the killer has a chance of losing track of them. Especially important with killers who have ranged attacks or quick traversal powers.
Healing under hook is generally okay if you know the killer is actively chasing somewhere across the map, or you feel sure you can both reach a safe loop if they arrive. Otherwise, I’d be careful.
The problem with the questionnaire was it only asked how often you personally get tunneled. My matches that are ruined is from other people getting tunneled, not myself. I can't sit on a chair with 3 bricks for legs and a toothpick as the 4th.
100% correct.
There's that, and also stuff like the dude who played eight hours was playing in mainly a SWF, running a flashlight, and the group was actively trying to protect everyone that was being tunneled. The Trickster game, for example, the Trickster dropped chase with someone after hitting them to rush back to the unhook, ride their ass waiting out unhook BT, and instantly downed the person. But that didn't count as tunneling to Scott because there were two people hovering nearby to protect them. And in a lot of those games, the killer only got 3-4 hooks anyway.
So it's not that there was no tunneling attempted, it's that the survivors were playing in a coordinated and aggressive way to pull aggro and prevent teammates from being tunneled. Which is 1.) Not how regular solo queue goes, and 2.) seen as the height of being a toxic bully squad from the killer community and excuse for maximal griefing when it doesn't work, which it won't because SOLO QUEUE.
Yeah, someone pointed this out in the survey too. I'm not often the weak link on the team, and when I am, I kinda just accept that as consequence. But when I can see that a teammate isn't getting to do anything, it's still a mood ruiner and can even ruin our chances at escape because the victim isn't really giving 2-gen chases.
His whole definition misses the forest for the trees. If, for example, a killer hard camps the first hook, downs the attempted unhook, forcing the second stage, hooks that person, and then immediately comes back to the hook to force the first person out, that's not tunneling at all according to him. They hooked someone else, after all, and survivors by not swarming the hook 'put the killer in that situation', so it's 'survivor induced,' which is total BS. Their intention from the start was to focus the person out ASAP. Does it really make a difference how?
Likewise, just because a killer can't find someone they're trying to tunnel, doesn't mean they're not trying to tunnel. I expect a killer more often than not to drop chase the second there's an unhook, especially if it's one with mobility like Dredge/Sadako/Blight/Nurse to go straight back to the hook. He only counts tunneling if it's successful, when the expectation of it is already completely warping player behavior.
@@arcarc2663 thats not even remotely true, i absolutely count that as tunneling, what
I don't think the problem is how much Tunneling is seen, I think the balance around how easy it is to do that is the problem. You talk about the killer going for the EASY target (which is fair) but when you add how easy it is to tunnel (the skill part) that isn't fair in a game where virtually every other aspect (Maps, pallets) are being reduced in size and strength. As for how much it is seen, I think that depends on your own experience. For me, it depends on the killers I see... I see more Blights doing it vs Trappers (as an example) Blights who are stronger than Trapper, can get to a hook faster, so in that sense I think that is a big balance problem. Not just for the game as a whole but tunneling itself.
Tunneling doesn't exist because it's literally a game losing strategy with all the things added and taken away.
From my experience when I was still playing, 1/3-1/2 of my games, the killer would either proxy and chase me directly off of hook, or would run/teleport back, and immediately gun for me, even when the person unhooking would take a hit. That's only the games where I was hooked at all, in games where I was not hooked, I witnessed similar happening to friends and randoms. So idk if location matters or time of day or what, but it seems like everyone has far different experiences. If I had to put a number on it, and exclude the self induced tunneling, I's say on average, people are getting tunneled about 1/4 of the total games they paly.
Edit: Oh damn I was kinda close to what you got data wise.
@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN Nurse is probably the worst tunneler I have seen. But nurse players in general are toxic af to begin with.
This guy has no idea what he's talking about. I encounter tunneling in 100% of the games I play killer
Skill issue lmao It happens in maybe 30% of the matches I play now a days killers now a days play the game on easy mode compared to old days
There was a study done that found that it takes around 5 positive memories to cancel out 1 negative memory
The reason I find this so interesting is, off this data, DbD players are having 9 positive matches for every 1 negative match (45/50 = 9/10) and STILL not letting it cancel out the negative match
DbD players are quite literally psychological anomalies
To be fair considering that the escape rates for solo is 40%, it's not surprising that there's a lot of negativity and overfocusing on the negative.
The only anomaly is your math.
The ratio of 9 positive matches to 1 negative match is not supported by the data you provided. The data you cited suggests it takes 5 positive memories to cancel out 1 negative memory, not a 9:1 ratio.
Even if the ratio was 9:1, that does not necessarily mean the negative memories are not being "cancelled out." The 5:1 ratio from the original study is about the relative impact of positive vs. negative experiences, not a strict cancellation. Negative experiences can still have an effect even if outweighed by positive ones.
Human psychology and response to experiences is complex and cannot be boiled down to a simple mathematical formula. The 5:1 ratio is a generalization, and individual responses can vary greatly based on many factors.
Assuming DbD players are "psychological anomalies" based on this flawed math oversimplifies a complex issue. Player experiences and responses to a game can be influenced by many factors beyond just the ratio of positive to negative matches.
Or its indicative of a player base that really doesn't have positive thoughts about this game and they are just addicted to the game so all that stands out is the negative moments.
@Peachrocks5 u shouldn't follow that since they still did count all the ones who kill themselves on hook
@@MightyBojangles It's not that deep man, I was just making a joke
The joke is that it usually takes 5 positive memories to remember positive things but only 1 negative to remember the negative. In 50 games, 45 didn't have any tunneling, which simplifies to 10 games with 9 not having tunneling. The part of the DbD community looked at in this video tends to say they get tunneled more than not, which means they need not only more than 5 games to remember, but more than 9 games for every 1 game they get tunneled. The joke is that there's an irony to how a one-off scientific study differs from the players that complain about tunneling in this game. Hopefully I could help you understand the joke.
i often find myself finding survivor 1, down->hook->find survivor 2, down->hook->find survivor 1 again because their saviour hides in a corner,down->hook->find survivor 3, down->hook->find survivor 1 again because the team abandoned them and noone else is to be seen so i just kill them in the time it took survivor 4 to do one gen while 2 and 3 jerk each other off in the corner
Despite you saying that a large number of people polled shared a similar definition of tunnelling I don’t think that’s overall the case in the community. There are definitely a lot of subjective (and incorrect) opinions about what tunnelling actually is.
Also context is important- if I get tunnelled or tunnel in end game I’m seeing that as totally normal behaviour. If a killer decides at 1 gen left they think the best action to win is tunnelling the recently unhooked survivor who is on death hook then so be it- it’s still “tunnelling” but if you’re expecting the killer not to make that decision then you’re asking the killer to lower their chances of winning for your fun. Don’t expect that of anyone and appreciate it if it happens to you, but don’t think it should be the norm.
1-2 gens left, if no one is dead or on death hook, someone needs to be. If it doesn't happen, killers will more than likely lose the game.
@@Timothee_Chalamet_CMBYN news flash, people who responded to one unofficial poll made by one guy are not the majority in the community.
I think I've been tunneled 1 time in the last few weeks. A Singularity literally was coming back to the hook as I was unhooked. I ran towards the pallet on Toba that is underneath the main building and the unhooker ran out into the open. The Singularity followed me, meanwhile we had 5 gens still to go. Kept following me until he downed me again. Then no one rescued after that. That is 1 game in about 30+ I've played in the last few weeks. It was frustrating as can be and I remember that more than the other 30 plus games I didn't get tunneled. Watching other DbD videos I see Survivors saying they are getting tunneled after getting hooked and then finishing a Gen and getting found again. To me it's just a fallback to why they lost and justifying it to themselves.
I had 20 games today and in 6 of them there was a hard core tunneler who no matter what just went for the same guy over and over, (Chucky, x2Deathslinger, Wesker, Wraith, Billy) It doesn't happen more than half the time and it may feel rare sometimes, but it's defiantly an issue within the game and kinda unhealthy.
Not every survivor, every game gives up and kills themselves on hook, but I think we can all agree it dose happen, it happens more than it should, and it is a problem. same goes for tunneling.
I agree and I think that is something Scott is overlooking. He makes the point that survivors are tunnelled less frequently than they claim (which may be true for most), however he glosses over a ~20% tunnelling average as okay.... If tunnelling occurs in 1/5 matches then thats one in 5 matches that are ruined due to a systemic problem in the game. Something needs to be done to address "killer based tunnelling" just like the default anti camping and 3 genning changes that have made a big difference (for most killers).
@@finnian1118 Honestly I haven't had gen rushing as a problem in months. But maybe that's down to the killers that I play.
If you are talking about more important inherent problems honestly I would've expected map imbalance and killer specific problems to turn up first.
@@finnian1118 Thats fair, I saw that the BNP changes made little difference to gen-rushing. What perks do you normally run? I almost always run Discordance because its great for finding and disrupting multiple survivors (especially those looking to gen rush).
I play on SEA servers, and for the longest time I've been convinced that SEA servers are quite a bit sweatier than other servers. I'm planning on going for 1000 games to get as much data as possible, and I have VERY strict applications for what counts as tunneling - has to be killer-induced, and I have to KNOW it was killer-induced, and it has to be specifically going out of there way to get the person out of the match. That is to say, I'm not counting instances where survivors played stupid or hid from the killer basically forcing a tunnel. Preliminary data from 25 games, I have had 7 tunnelers (28%) and on average they tunneled at 3 gens. Of all the killers, 8 of them (32%) slugged for the 4K, and 60% of all killers who were on steam (which is the vast majority) had a private profile or were anonymous. Just to clarify, all things being equal as it stands, that is 7 times more tunneling on the SEA servers than on the US servers by your report.
There's a game I remember vividly where a killer RELENTLESSLY chased/downed/hooked me, to the point of ignoring absolutely all the generators and other survivors just to find me so I would die on hook and could no longer play the game. I swear, I could've glitched outside of the map and he would've spent the entire game trying to glitch out as well just to get me. When you're playing at such an obvious deficit to you at the expense of ensuring that one person has absolutely no fun whatsoever, that's infuriating.
I think I'm tunneled more than you were. But I still don't think it's 20% or anything like that. Two things.
1: If you're going off the UI - as I often do - it's hard to tell why someone is being tunneled. So it can appear a killer is tunneling because they're annoying, even though maybe the survivor was just sandbagged/sandbagging.
2. If someone gets hooked, come off the hook and immediately go back on the hook, they'll typically say they're being tunneled. Even if they're not actually killed in this sequence, I think the feeling/fear of being tunneled can't really be understated. That it doesn't happen twice in a row doesn't necessarily make it feel less bad.
I had a game 1 night where i got giga tunneled by a wraith, proxy camped the hook and came for only me. So next game i put on DS, OTR, dead hard for the rest of the night. Was not tunneled again a single time and remembered why i dont run anti tunnel. Its just not that common, so i happily went back to my background player flashbang the next gaming sesh 😈
After midnight it's sweaty tunnel hell lmao. Definitely more challenging to play during that time.
I've been playing in Asia for the past 8 months (I usually play US West). The killers here tunnel more often than not. They also give hatch extremely rarely (almost never) and tend to pull out all the stops to get a 4k.
Yeah when I play late at night beyond 11 or midnight half my killers are Chinese players VPNing and the tunneling is relentless, so far I find it is VERY rare for a Chinese killer to have any chill. I got my first chill one the other day playing pig who was about to win and they knew it so they let us boop and meme and leave. First chill Chinese killer I’ve ever seen, the PvP culture there seems pretty different
I love how survivors can play as optimally as they want but when someone unhooks in front of my face and i go after that hooked person bcuz i know thats the optimal play, im literally "ruining the game experience". Meanwhile no one ever talks about boil over, flip flopping in a unhookable corner on eyrie and yet will complain about camping when you try to make sure that person goes down close to the hook again so they cant try that tactic. no one ever talks about survivors letting people die on hook for hatch, but when a killer slugs for hatch it immediately becomes a problem. I remember i once went up against a swf as hag that was calling out my traps and they had at least 2 background players and would constantly get the save even when i did try to scare them off or face a wall. Whenever i picked someone up, they would immediately trigger and run away from all my traps bcuz they knew i couldnt teleport while carrying. They ran to each pallet and the map and worked together as well as they could, all while tbagging and emoting. I was getting my ass beat and they were having the time of their life. So in order to even the field, i tunneled one guy off of hook once after they unhooked in my face.....immediately he killed himself on hook after not moving and giving up. Complained in end game about boring match as welI. I never tunnel tbh and that was like my first time doing it, but i dont see why i shouldnt just....hardcore tunnel someone out at 5 gens everytime now. Survivors can literally play and do anything and be free of persecution from one another. I was first under the idea that im runing someone's. But now i see that tbh, people just dont wanna lose, simple as that. Its just a bunch of sore losers.
As a killer main, there aren't many times I'll actively tunnel. It's usually when I'm losing a game, and i need to get someone out quick to get more pressure. Other than that, it'll be the survivors fault. Examples being if they body block with base BT, if they are quite literally everywhere I'm looking and no one else is around, if their teammates leave them on hook till stage 2, and if they BU+FTP a teammate after i down them (they are begging for it by using that combo)
Something I never see anyone mention that is also a factor, is the cosmetic choices of survivors.
If you're wearing lighter or bright colors, the killer is going to see you more easily than the survivors that aren't wearing those colors. The charms are also cosmetics to consider as well.
When I look around to see where the unhooked survivor and their rescuer are, and David is hiding in a bush with dark colored clothes, and neon pink Feng is running away, I'm going to go after what caught my attention.
I also see a lot of survivors unhook too early. I often can't even leave the proximity before I get the notification and turn around to see 2 or more survivors.
After I hook someone, I B-line to a generator, but if I hear the unhook notification, I'm going to investigate.
Let me fecking leave the area for god's sake.
Scott the issue isn't that its everywhere, otherwise we'd all just run anti tunneling perks and win, the issue is you have no way to prepare for it and when it happens it's just "oh okay so I guess I'm not having fun"
You can call me crazy but i like beeing tunnelt by the killer just because i dont see it as not allowed to having fun i see it as a personal 1v1 where the better player wins yeah many times i die quickly but many times i dont but i get it that many players hate it
My friend she’s tunneled every match if she plays good they will ignore anyone else until she’s dead even if they’re doing gens right by chase so it’s common but not for everyone I guess
Scott, I see tunneling every game and it’s absolutely shocking. (I only play killer)
I have noticed less tunneling since the base BT, and even more now with grim embrace. Healthy changes like this promote less tunneling, not to say tunneling isn't a strategy still used it sure is. It probably depends on if killers are seeing more anti-tunneling perks in their games in respects to it. Even then I like being tunneled as a survivor so it's whatever. Proxy camping on the other hand happens about the same, as unhooking yourself hardly happens.
Tunneling is the killer version of gen rushing, it’s a strategy to win (a strategy that doesn’t work all the time nor intended every-time).
Haha this is the comment that just kills the video.
This community is full of hypocrisy like how is gen rushing ok and making game over in 3min a flex but tunneling and getting someone out a shame
@@sherif7491Generators are inanimate objects, not players. Tunneling makes one player unable to play the game, ruining that person's game. Gen rushing does not make the Killer unable to pilot his character. They are not even remotely the same.
True, people complain that tunneling is not fun because you die fast and don't get many points but the same exact thing can happen with toolboxes, gen perks and good gen efficency, everyone is out after 4 minutes and you have 2 hooks. What exactly is the difference here?
@@mordantpotency410 But the killer is a player and gen rushing ruins their game. Your mindset is part of the problem. Just because the way they do it is slightly different doesn't mean it doesn't ruin each others game. They are each sides equivalent. It's an asym game so of course they will differ some in execution, but the end result is the same: ruining the other sides experience to win ASAP. Either both are ok or both aren't, stop the hypocrisy.
I believe people get tunneled often. But I think it's across the player-base as a whole. I like to believe I get tunneled often, but I don't. It does happen more frequently than I would wish it did, but it's not as often as I project.
My problem with tunneling is how often people are experiencing it and how powerful it is. There should be no reason the Killer can go after someone right after they are taken off the Hook. I do also believe that in some situations, players feel that tunneling is necessary or fundamental to the gameplay. Personally, I think that it's lame and unfun for both sides. No Killer wants to resort to that when they're playing well, and no Survivor wants it to come to that.
Killers playing badly should be punished, same with Survivor. Survivors playing badly should be punished. But there shouldn't be "feel-better" mechanics that allow one side to comeback from those situations.
Tunneling shouldn't be rewarded as heavily as it is, and the most it should do is have the Killer throw the entire match. Survivors body-blocking shouldn't be rewarded in my opinion either, as it only causes more problems for both sides, like the example you stated in your video with Survivor induced tunneling.
The tunneling issue is such a difficult thing to fix because sometimes tunneling can feel like such a necessity when someone is running problematic perks like buckle up+ftp or background player as keeping them in the game only causes issues later on which can cost the win
the problem is that tunneling is so much better than any other strategy by a large margin and something should be done about it regardless of how often it happens
I had a game just yesterday were a guy complained about being tunneled afterwards. All four survivors made it to the end game and I’m pretty sure everyone was on death hook… I got the win but it made me feel like, “What else am I supposed to do? Just not hook survivors I’ve already hooked before?” Especially right now when I’m seeing multiple sables or entire sable SWF in a game. I have no idea who is who when the match gets intense sometimes but I’ll get told my play style is 💩I want people to have fun playing against me. I don’t want to just grief survivors but I feel like you can’t win on killer sometimes with the community.
My favorite is when the survivors tell me to run barbecue because I’m camping gens. As trapper.
At work - I can have 20 "good/okay" days. Every now and then - I have a SHIT day at work. In my head, I'm likely saying to everyone that I have a shit job and it's stressful etc. But in reality, it isn't. The bad just lingers harder and for longer.
I am a killer main and I aim for 12 hook games. I count my hook states per person so I know when someone is on death hook and can then avoid them until a reasonable amount of hook states are on other people. And yet I have had people in post game lobbies chastise me for tunneling even when they escaped... Survivors seems to think hooked twice in a row is a tunnel.
Something I notice from playing with randoms, is that survivors love to call anything tunneling, they’ll be hooked, get unhooked, then the killer chases me, and hooks me, then the killer finds them, and the survivor says it’s tunneling, because they got found once more. The other scenario I see is that survivors think that only finding the same two survivors you are simultaneously tunneling the both of them. Lastly, survivors think tunneling makes them the worst person on the planet when they’re just taking what they can get. I always point out others mistakes when they claim tunneling with me.
Nice job Scott. Very in depth, very elaborate, and very well put together and organized. I liked it.
I usually always try to "play nice," but if I go back to a hook and someone unhooks, and then the healthy survivor goes somewhere safe while the unhealthy survivor puts themselves into a disadvantageous position, I'm going for the unhealthy one lol
Most people’s bad days aren’t actually them getting kicked while they’re down, it’s just one bad moment they drag out throughout the day. Of course it still happens, but the amplitude between is vastly different.
People will never stick to strict definitions because then they can't fall back on tunneling as an excuse for why they lost. Same with camping, I've been told by multiple people that I was facecamping from outside facecamp timer range, nearly halfway across the map.
I don't see tunneling as any different than just being efficient on gens. Sometimes the best option is to just tunnel someone, simple as that. It's not some personal attack, it's just playing the game. Almost always it's because they rushed for the unhook too soon, or healed under hook. They try to save time, I do the same.
My experience seems to be that it depends on the night, sometimes you have nights where it doesnt happen othertimes you get nights where its every other game or a few in a row and it typically gets worse around rank reset so i think it would be interesting to see this experience across a longer time frame rather than a wider pool
I'm not a video maker, but one time I did record, out of 50 games, how many times I was: A. first person found in the match. Result was 32 out of 50 games, and B. Tunneled. 18 times, 14 out of the games previously stated. Obviously MMR is invisible but if I had to guess I sit right at or slightly above the soft cap? But nowhere near 2000's. There's a lot of variables as you said. Is it still tunneling if another person takes hits and goes down for you, and you wiggle so they hook the guy who went down for you and then they are right back on you? Someone else took a hook but it was only out of presenting themselves for it. Can you tunnel multiple people at a time? if you hook someone, then hook someone else while they are still hanging there, then when they get unhooked you tunnel them then hook them again by the time the other person gets unhooked rinse repeat etc? Is running a killer for 5 gens being tunneled? You didn't die but the killer didn't target anyone else or even flat out ignored them. Just because you had a positive result doesn't mean it wasn't tunneling. Is it still tunneling at 1 and 5 gens or is there a cut off? The worst part about it really is though when you just accept you are getting tunneled so you just stand at the hook and they slug you so you can't even go to the next game where you have (depending on elo) any where between a 15 and 40% chance of getting another killer who behaves exactly the same way.
could u do this for camping? im kinda using ur research to decide if i wanna run anti tunnel or reassurance xd
I assume the fires of hell in that thumbnail are aimed squarely at True 😂
I think the key issue with all of this is the fact that tunneling has been operationalized as “focusing one person until they die.” Honestly, you and me both knew that was a rare circumstance to begin with. I think when it comes to tunneling, the thing which people complain about is the ease to which tunneling can suddenly be applied to immensely great effect.
No killer player who calls themselves good will overtly tunnel to win all their games. For example, someone gets unhooked? It can become extremely easy from an opportunistic lens to go back to hook, stop the heal, willingly ‘tunnel’ the unhooked survivor to get a 2nd hook and stop ‘tunneling’ after that.
However, because of that early play, the killer player (if they have good gamesense) can essentially pressure that vulnerable survivor throughout the rest of the match. I could have hooked plenty other people but now I technically never tunneled by your definition. It is already well known by good DBD players that ‘tunneling’ two survivors at once is a far stronger macro strategy that not-so-good killer players rarely employ.
Additionally, the opportunity for tunneling best arrises at different points of a match. The first survivor I hooked was really strong in chase? I probably shouldn’t tunnel them. Now, what if they were on 2nd hook and I proxied such that I can ensure that survivor won’t have a chance to heal or escape. I still technically didn’t focus one guy until death but employed the principle of tunneling at the right time and place.
Don’t get me wrong, I think this data is extremely valuable, and a good stepping point to see the general consensus on the perceptions of tunneling. But as I wholly believe, tunneling is far more nuanced than what has been given. If at that point we disagree that what I am describing is no longer ‘tunneling’ then there is no point in further discussion.
Me and my duo teammate last night when he got mega-tunneled 8 games in a row: Nah bro it's not that common
i'd say there's tunneling in most of my games but uhhhhhhh ... im a killer main
I keep my DBD stats in my own Excel sheet. I only play solo q. The definition of tunneling for me when I do these stats is; that the killer will go for the recently hooked survivor and trying to down them, even though there are other survivors around in sight. Granted, I could be wrong in some minor cases because I wasn't there to see what actually happens. But in many times, I can see on the HUD that the survivor who was just unhooked is in chase again, and the one that did the unhooking is not.
Out of 700 matches (so far), the killers tunneled 22 % of the time. This was between 2023-11-22 and 2024-04-07 on EU servers. So my experience is very different :).
If I understand correctly, your definition of tunneling seems pretty different from Scott's, which would account for that difference. If you're only noting whether the survivor gets chased after getting unhooked, then that is not really tunneling someone out of the game, as in only going after the recently unhooked survivor and ignoring everybody else until that person is dead. Especially on the HUD, the chase symbol could mean the unhooked survivor accidentally ran into the killer or the person who rescued is hiding, leaving the killer no other target.
@@moputopia I meant "going for.." as in chasing them trying to down them. I should have made that clear, although, I don't know why else the killer would chase the survivor.
I think a lot of people only hate tunneling when it works out for the killer. If the killer tries to tunnel and the survivor still does well and escapes, that's not a problem. It's only an issue if the survivor gets tunneled and dies.
I feel like it’s killer dependent. Wesker is tunnel king in my games. The moment that unhook happens whiskers comes zooming back like his family is being held hostage and the only way to free them is to tunnel lol.
One thing I've noticed tho are scenarios where survivor induced tunneling turns into straight up tunneling. Like either a killer just thinks "they're death hook, might as well kill them". Or I take a hit, barely use the speedboost, and they go back on the survivor, with sometimes more distance to them than I do.
Realistically... it seems to be mainly a problem starting around the 4th or 5th before reset. The really good killers Irr early and then are chill... the bad have to sweat to get those last pips.
Would be asking a lot if you put up the vod of the 50 games if possible or is it available on your twitch page to watch. It would be nice to have to watch in the background while working, etc…
Its just all of my last 3 streams here www.twitch.tv/scottjund/videos
@@ScottJund Thanks a lot. Really appreciate the response
killers that are xenomorph and Demogorgon have a 100% chance to tunnel in my games
I think buying Zarina for her "Off the record" really helps, before I bought her I get tunneled from time to time but after buying her I no longer get tunneled! 😁
I appreciate your nuanced and considered thoughts
Hey loved the video. I still am trying to understand what tunneling is kinda and thankfully you kinda helped me understand that lol. Although kinda curious and not sure if this is something you have spoken on this or not but isn't the thing of "killer chasing a single survivor for the entirety of a match but never able to down or hook them." count as tunneling to? like a subcategory? I've seen and played vs killers that do this kind of thing and was just curious if that is something that could be taken into account? I know the tunneling in this video is more on the player side but just curious if this kind of thing does or doesn't fall into it too. Still though keep up the great work and hope more newbs like me learn from your wisdom.
I think the way to see if tunneling is a problem in a region, try to find out what the meta is in that region if possible. If tunneling would be a problem, I would think the meta in the place would show it
Basically, players are spoilt. That's what I gather from this. A couple of bad games and they have a hissy fit. I have played since 2016, been camped and tunnelled countless times. I still play the game. I don't play it as often now for other reasons but camping and tunneling in my own experience were not nearly as common as many make it out to be.
If anything, I get more frustrated when team mates all ditch the gens to come save me. In the few games that I do get camped and tunnelled, I would be more happy if the team mates rushed the gens and all 3 escaped. The killer would have lost the game badly and my bad experience would not have been for nothing.
Im ngl ive had days where all games are awesome and nice killers play nice, surv play nice, and im having fun no matter if i win or lose. And then the next day comes its 10 blight or nurses back to back and we have one person dead by the time the first gen is done, and then the next day you have in every game the first downed who kills themselves right from the start of the game, this game's experience is just like the maps, extremely volatile
I run Floods of Rage on almost all my Plague builds and it is insane how many survivors unhook and I see them slowly walk away to some random hiding spot because they can't heal under hook.
"Oh? I can't heal them? I guess I'll just THROW THEM UNDER THE BUS!"
I get tunneled so infrequently that I can't even remember the last time it happened to me, despite it being a rare occurrence. Even if I get tunneled, I don't give a shit. It's a vidya game. Queue for another match. Spectate your friends for a bit and relax. None of it means anything. Let it ride, people. Everything will be okay.
In my experience I can go hours without any real tunnelling but then I will log in one day and it will be back to back hard tunnelling. I don't think it happens in every match for anyone but it does happen more than it should imo
I use DS every game and mostly don’t get use unless I force it. If you want to know how many games you are actually getting tunneled, use DS/OTR and see how many times you get use out of the stun/endurance AND you didn’t purposely avoid working on a generator or doing a conspicuous action to get use out of the perk.
My thing is: if survivors are purposely taking a hit with off hook BT its not tunneling its you throwing yourself infront of a killer its only logical expect to get hit
The aggressive body block off of hook is my favorite type of tunneling. 🤣
The funniest convo I had recently involved a survivor bitching I tunneled him.
I hooked him first, and his SWF duo unhooked him in my face, so to protect his rescuer, he literally body blocked me in Lery's so i could not get around him to hit his rescuer, so I just hit him and he ran into a wall, so I downed and hooked him again.
Second unhook, they heal under hook, and he body blocks me a second time, so I hit him, he borrowed times to a pallet, messed up the mind game, and I killed him.
Post game he was screaming at me. Turned out to be a small streamer and he was legitimately screaming at his monitor. It was just.... weird.
I think proxy camping the hook is a bigger issue that leads to what is perceived as tunneling. The killer knows you inevitably need to go and unhook survivors so it makes too much sense to hang around the hook and just go get a cheap down as soon as someone comes then rinse repeat. I think they should increase the timer by maybe x3 times for when you are on hook, so that if the killer wants to hang around they'll have to waste a lot of time.
Questioned Turkey makes me question them when they say they are always being tunneled.
Lol, I've seen videos of people claiming to be tunneled, because they were the first survivor found, and the killer just committed to that chase...
It largely depends on the MMR as well as the killer being played (which also vary based on the MMR). I think it's hard to take a sample of 50 personal games for that reason.
slightly random, but something interesting to check would be how many players that mostly play in teams of 3 or 4 also see higher amounts of tunneling (higher than 50%). It's entirely possible that low mmr survivors are queueing up with multiple high mmr survivors and create a scenario where they are the weak link every game for the entire play session.
I have this theory because I'm a killer main with less than 1k hours on survivor, and when I queue up with my friends I get hardcore tunneled WAY more often than when I play solo.
Facts even tho I did have a blight try to "tunnel" me earlier it was the only game today that happened. He had barbeque and lethal and definitely saw me as a weak link since it was my first game on but I still got out using lockers/iron will
I don’t like tunneling but if I’m at the beginning of a round and I find the first person only for two gens to pop I immediately have to go into damage control and kill 1 person as quickly as possible. Sorry for the first person but I need to win and eventually the other survivors realize it and stop doing gens which ironically feels like a fairer game.
I'll always remember a match I had as doctor against 4 Bills in identical cosmetics all with no items. Literally just kept chasing whichever Bill I happened to find but apparently I still tunneled one of them
Great video! I do think that a part of the problem of tunneling that you didn’t mention was that, yes, tunneling may not happen as often as people say; however, when it does rarely happen it feels really bad, self induced or not. And the argument around tunneling isn’t necessarily how do we remove tunneling from the game, but how do we change the game so that when tunneling does happen, it doesn’t feel as bad
On top of it being overblown who cares if you get tunneled. What else is there to do, sit on gens? If I get tunneled on survivor and get a good chase in I'm happy. I had a bubba face camping and trying to tunnel me out the whole match yesterday and it was super fun. Everyone else was able to escape and I got my loops in. If anything I'm more annoyed when teammates get tunneled cause then all I can really do is gens
I mean with that logic you are always less likely to get tunneled due to three other players so more often than not you will have matches where you just have to sit on gens due to tunneling.
Or you know, a killer spreads out their chase effectively slowing more than one player down in a match so they can get more than maybe 2 kills a match.
@@ReactiveDeactive Yeah I agree! But 99% of the time people are complaining about themselves getting tunneled, not their teammates. If people complained about teammates getting tunneled and having to sit on gens all game I'd honestly agree
why not make it so that the killer has to get like 5 hooks total to get his first kill then 8 for the second, then 11 and then the last one gets killed immediatly (the numbers can change). That way tunneling doesn't do anything and then balance the game around that. The game also finally becomes more of a team game then a solo game.
Well thought out and expressed video, thank you.
I played a lot of random survivors on discord and they treat Killer as if they're bots that has no eye balls. Freely running out in the open going for the save and then crying when the Killer is 'camping'.
In the last few month I got tunneled about 3 times that I remember.
One time by a Trickster who hooked me in basement and waited for my anti tunnel to proc, then proceeded to only go for me. Still 4 gens left while I was his only hook.
The second time was a Wraith who actually felt bad afterwards since I was the only one in the match who wasn solo.
He went after me when he had the feeling that it was the only thing he could do, besides the fact that 2 gens were left, so fine.
The third time was a Huntress who tunneled me out after I got unhooked out of basement, hitting stage 2 so she could get a mori.
One gen left so I don't bother about it that much.
Tunneling might be annoying but the context to why a killer does it is important too.
I don't get tunneled often, sometimes I go down for a friend so I wont count that as tunneling.
Watching this after I get hard tunneled from the beginning of the match, killer only hooked me. Ignored every other player until I died, couldn't even touch a generator the entire match. I had anti tunnelling perk and it made no difference because even after using DS there was no distance made enough for me to do anything. Tunnelling is in almost every match, if it's not me then it's someone else. BHVR encourages tunnelling and even some killers abilities do like wesker.
11:31 Yup that's when me and my friends usually play and I do notice that we usually overall just have more chaotic and unpredictable killers than during the day so extra tunneling in those hours wouldn't surprise me a bit
I get tunneled a lot. I also TRY to get tunneled as usually i have the most hours in my lobbies. Usually my death is my team's W so i don't mind all that much.
As someone that used to play mostly killer I didnt like to tunnel that much, but I had one simple rule: If u finish a gen on my face that means you are not afraid of tunneling.
So yeah I think most of the tunneling are induced by survivors
I tend to tunnel more with weaker killers. The unhooker disappears and I got no choice unless I'm playing Billy or Legion that can seek out the unhooker better
You know, that's a nice-looking tunnel.
Solid 8/10, looks like it has fun acoustics
Not counting “survivor induced” tunneling is very generous to killers. The killer is always the one who chooses who to chase, down, and hook. Tunneling is always tunneling and it’s always lame
idm not counting the survivor induced tunneling because there have been times where I got hooked, the killer went to check gens and everyone on gens hid, so the killer comes back to the hook after ive been unhooked and the unhooker hides, so he goes for me, like in that position its understandable, but the thing that I feel is a little unfair is those times when teammates have to go outof their way and give the killer a free hit / put themselves in a really bad spot JUST to take the heat off the unhooked person, which will ultimately lead to a quick down and short chase. I feel like we shouldn't have to throw ourselves at the killer and put ourselves in a really crap spot just to stop a person from being tunneled, it's almost like we have to give the killer a free hit to even tempt him into wanting to go for us instead of the unhooked, which puts us at a disadvantage depending on positioning etc.
Double length Scott video let’s gooo