The funniest part is, if you consider behavior as a company, they're actually a really good company. One of the very few companies in the gaming industry that doesn't shit all over their employees
It takes no effort. They just smack the meshes in and have the engine auto generate collision on everything. It'd take ACTUAL work (which obv they dont want to do) to take them out or do it manually like a real dev team.
Vastly prefer the older map design to the new 'obnoxious clutter everywhere, weird shidboxes, 1000 LOS breakers, interconnected but weak pallets smile'
My tinfoil hat theory is that Huntress was buffed as a pre-emptive strike because they know theres more of these same clutter maps to come and buffing huntress fixes her issues before the complaining starts.
@@asmith8190he means for killer, some killers holding W isn’t the play in some situations but all these maps force holding W to be the favoured play style because most loops are too tight/small to use charge based powers
I think there's something to be said for the new map design in that they tend to be less RNG-reliant than the old styles and give you more options against the distance-denial Killers than the old style. Coal Tower, especially CT2, is notoriously RNG reliant because when the combination of super strong setups and shitty pallets happens to roll the dice badly one side or the other is going to have an awful time. That's to say nothing of how egregiously silly distance-denial Killers can be in circumstances where maps have fewer, stronger tiles. E.G. put a Blight or Huntress on Coal Tower, there's a good chance that the Survivor leaving the tile will get hit before they can make the next one because the density of resources may not be sufficient to make them not just get a free hit in transition between tiles. But Blight or Huntress on Greenville is far less likely to put you in that no-win scenario because the Survivor is way more likely to be able to make the next resource. Same reason maps have more clutter nowadays: a blank void between tiles means dash and projectile Killers become utterly obnoxious unless you're already inside a tile. It doesn't matter how well you play the tile if you having to leave it means you die instantly because the map RNG didn't take into account the 230% speed Scottish man running you down because the next pallet wasn't four inches from the one that came before it. EDIT: I don't have a particular preference between older or newer maps so I don't have any biases one way or another, I just think we can't ignore the fact that distance denial Killers are so popular and map design has changed to reflect that.
yep there's no real correct answer here. a lot of the discussion is entirely dependent on the killer you are playing. naturally, the killers i've mained (huntress, demo, billy) etc all hate this new style so therefore i do
So we're making strong killers (like Blight or Billy) weaker, and weak killers (like all the M1s) stronger by new map design. What's wrong with that? ... I don't think god pallets make sense at all, they are boring in every case. Even if we think of the resource-burning macro gameplay (which can be fun, but I don't think it's more fun than actually outplaying your opponent), you can still reduce the amount of "rng points" worth by breaking a few of the unsafe pallets. With that, you're making that area much weaker, but the survivor still has a slight chance to outplay you. If we're making deadzones, the game just becomes boring, because it's like "yeah, there's nothing here, I'm surely gonna die" instead of "yeah I'm gonna do my best to outplay the killer on this aweful pallet". For me it's always the best feeling to outplay the killer on an unsafe tile, because it takes skills like good read of your opponent, knowing the killer's power, etc.
For the first time in like 7 years of playing this, I went down instantly on the unknowns Map and had no idea what I could have done better. In every direction I saw no pallets or structures or anything. I could barely orient myself to where the edges and the centre was. Really weird map that breaks many dbd map conventions.
you gotta stop looping like a veteran and start looping like a noob (mindgame & hold w). all you have in these maps is distance. if you try to loop you die
Hard agree. The new map is basically a godsend for killers like clown or wraith but super boring for most killers. If you charge any power whether it be a dash or a chainsaw or a hatchet the survivor can just leave and play the next pallet. It reduces gameplay down to m1 simulator
what is scott is describing when he says that skilled teams are nightmare to play against is what the game is suppose to be. Your suppose to work together to survive. your not suppose chain 5 god pallets and finish 3 gens before killer get 1 hook. that is bad design. Downing survivor in dead-zones is skill-less game design. Chaining tiles is how survivor is suppose express skill. there is no skill to express as survivor is if the loop is loop twice then put down pallet. killer kicks pallet. hold-w. that is entirely why gideon is terribly designed map. The remote idea that this was ever good gameplay is staggering. I can't think of any of older killer that struggle in new map design. if anything, most of them are stronger. Trapper is m1 killer, more unsafe loop = less reliance on traps. Wraith m1. Myer's, m1, can stalk over loops sometimes. The only killer that get hurt by new design is Billy and Bubba because these two killer were designed around "destroying" the map.
@@dodang_9147 it's not difficult for a survivor on the new map to just run between loops dropping the occasional pallet and getting hit by losing a 50 50. It is difficult however for a team to manage 13 decent pallets throughout the match. Killers are designed to either outplay the loop eg: huntress blight or hillbilly. Or they're designed to get rid of resources fast eg: bubba clown singularity. The new map basically just forces killers into playing an m1 game only which isn't fun. When I play Billy I want to curve and outplay loops, when I play blight I want to use bump logic to outplay a strong jungle gym. Can't do that on the new map because the loops are basically just diversions. Not to mention there's still plenty of decent pallets on that map and it's also huge.
The reward for charge killers playing map control and working away the pallets in an area is a very satisfying and rapid instadown/hit/status effect. It's the presence of god pallets with dead zones that creates the need for 360 saws (and running instasaw or reload add ons) or survivors just get run down in a corner because the most they can do is give the killer a longer walk. Having lots of weak pallets limits the killers ability to use their power without limiting the power itself. The counterpoint to many pallets causing M1 scenarios is god pallets causing kick scenarios and dead zones causing boring chases.
@@bigbrainonimain9226 god pallets are not about managing resources. they're about using the resource to get a gen lead and closing out the game lead. In essence, 1 looper is all it takes to win the game. Every map plays like Gideon's with god pallets. You spam throw pallets, killer loses 3-4 gens. the killer cannot go play for hooks, so they 3 gen camp because map is busted as F. In order for killers to balance broken map design, they have to ignore 50% of the map. The new map design allows killer to move around the map and actively take chases because they can physically mindgame loops. it is healthy gameplay. Skilled survivors are hard to catch, trash loopers die in seconds. God pallet design allows trash loopers to "loop" the killer.
I think the fundamental difference between Hawkins and Greenville Square is that Hawkins being all corridors encourages the very boring hold W predrop pallet playstyle, very akin to old RPD (which is obviously just very boring). In comparison, Greenville Square has you play those weak pallets to chain to stronger structures (shack, main, jungle gymx2), so in contrast to older map design, early in the game it's possible to chain weak tiles into strong ones, but later the lack of central pallets makes chaining into and out of strong structures very risky. Greenville Square still HAS strong tiles, but new map design has you play weaker pallets to gain consistent access, which I personally think is better. Meanwhile, Hawkins has nothing amazingly strong to chain into, so you really are just chaining weak pallet x10 until you die. Also re killer powers, I feel that's a Hawkins/Indoor issue rather than a new map design issue. Greenville filler pallets are generally just as accessible as normal maps for most killer powers, save the hilarious double pallet tile.
one of the huge reasons why very few, maybe none, of the "newer" maps have ever been used for any remotely "comp" setting, is because the pallets/tiles on maps since toba landing are nothing more than coin tosses when being played, that plus being on a giant map with a stupid main building..... yes ik this game isnt designed around comp but my point is that comp will pick maps that are considered to be for the most part as as possible for , and wouldnt you know, a large handful of matches are played on macmillan and azarov maps..... the shape of maps + pallets that are only "god pallets" when used by very experienced players (who yes still get hit at them) are my favorites and its such a shame we've had nothing close to the oldest maps in so long now
I'm glad you made this video because I was really gaslighting myself on the new Cinema map. I hated the Main Building, it never felt safe. I tried to make the Pallets in the rocky areas, they never worked. Map felt like there was a BUNCH of dead space. It was aesthetically pleasing, but God it was frustrating. Felt like I could never escape even M1 killers as Survivor. I'm fine if a Killer uses their power to surpass me, ie Xeno Tail, Dredge Remnant, UVX, Billy Saw, etc... but never being able to have a chance at escaping a Wraith or a Trapper because there are no good structures and I'm only an 800 hour player, it feels terrible.
Oh same, try going against a Bubba on that map. There is nothing safe to loop him around or trick him into bumping to go into Tantrum (unless he gets stunned or bumps an object just as he downs you), all he has to do is just hold W while using his chainsaw and he just gains ground. Now, maybe I'm just bad against Bubba, but idk, Greenville Isle just feels so bad to play on as killer or survivor.
I agree, can't really use my power as Demo on the new style maps since they're made in such way. It's pretty much force pallet drop, play 50/50s with M1. Ofc if you break it there's a good chance they'll just get to another one.
Not to mention the clutter of hooks everywhere. Toolboxes/Hook sabotages have zero affect on the Unknowns map cause there's a hook right next to another. Same goes for the Silent Hill map too.
@@mreyespy551there’s sooooo much shit on all of the new maps, I feel like they’ve been doing this since eyrie of crows was released. There’s clutter everywhere and every tiny little thing has a hit box. There’s line of site breakers and then there’s just ridiculous visual noise.
Oh God, glad to know I wasn't going crazy about that map either. I was trying to figure out for the life of me why I was having such a bad time as killer or survivor on that map (I have maybe won one match on each side on that map), like it feels too big, too cluttered to be able to get any kind of "use" out of the map, if that makes sense. Going down or getting outplayed in places I don't on other maps, am glad to know it's just not me.
The older generation allowed a lot more skill to run the tiles and mindgaming them. The new ones are just survivors holding w to a pallet and getting m1ed in a 50/50
The newer maps feel like they were all put in the hands of the design team, then the balance team just comes in and slaps in some pallets wherever they can fit them.
The problem with old maps is when it generates strong loop, next to another strong loop, next to shack window, into another strong loop.. At least when every pallet is weak, the RNG is less likely to decide a match
When Behavior makes maps smaller and smaller, EVERYTHING ELSE gets nerfed! Survivors lost distance on injury. Gen slow down perks was nerfed into the ground. Tiles get more frequent due to a crammed map which means they must be unsafe to balance the chases. It's INSANE! All this BS due to Behavior and killers wanting a smaller map. I'm a killer main, I was not for this dumpster idea to make maps smaller. Trials end much faster which was a small benefit but it dont feel like DBD. Small adjustments to make the maps smaller RUINED the tile set up and nerfs had to follow.
@@SweetLeavesXbox1 That's a separate issue that effects most maps in the game. It could easily be solved if they just spread gens out or put up LOS blockers. Mother's dwelling regardless of what occurs now had 0 business being as big as it was.
Scott, you said your pov as a killer for preferring old maps design, and for me as a survivor, I would say playing jungle gyms, and different tiles, that have multiple mindgames, multiple plays you can do, is far better than just a shitty pallet with almost same 50/50 mindgame each time, I don’t know why some people prefer new pallets, even who plays killer. Old maps design is the best.
I think it's interesting to have a spread of different maps, where each maps makes you have to play it a little differently, it adds to keeping things fresh. While I agree, having a balance of tile strength is better overall, and should probably take up most of the map pool, I can appreciate that some maps are a little different like this, where some maps are a weak pallet fest of 50/50s. Just don't make it the norm, and I'm happy with that.
I agree, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this conundrum. It's just a matter of not making every single map have nothing but dead space and unsafe pallets, as much as we all like to complain about pallets we still need strong tiles as well.
About god pallets - as a surv there's no better feeling than looping at shack then mindgaming a killer into mindgame while you leave the shack - meaning that all that time killer wasted in shack is just that - wasted time, no god pallet for them.
Never thought about it like that but its a good point about new killers. Chucky can just crawl under them, singularity can walk through them, unknown can shoot over them, xeno can m2 over them. It is like a weird macro power creep thing. Make maps with new philosophy, make new killers to thrive in that environment. I think the issue is its not like these killers are bad on more traditionally designed maps, so they just get an advantage with no downside. Not sure what to make of this.
Was just discussing this with a friend a few days ago as well, the last 7 killers have all been antiloop style killers with some having extremely bloated kits(unknown). And their new maps are designed to be anti loop, so games now days just feel like run as far as possible before going down to maximize chase time.
I enjoy the older style of maps since i can't really do all of those techs (fov, spins, those kinds of things) when I'm caught in a deadzone or something. I enjoy chaining the loops together and just having raw looping skill with each tile (check spotting, micro-fakes, window faking, etc) since that's most rewarding for me as opposed to just playing 50/50's at every unsafe pallet that's about as long as a singular haybale on coldwind. Obviously those pallets should exist but it shouldn't be nearly every single one in a map, it just breeds an unfun experience for both sides since you're not doing much aside from flipping a coin and guessing heads or tails.
I think weak pallets that allow both sides to play around it are better. A good survivor should be able to loop and waste a killers time with pathing and vaults alone. I've been able to loop killers by chaining tiles and vaults and only dropping maybe 1 pallet if they have mamaged to catch up to me then continue holding W. While it doesnt ALWAYS last super long it has made a few killers ignore me all game and go for others until I went for unhooks in unsafe areas. Point is I dont think god pallets are necessary, and this isnt any kind of gatekeep-y "If you need god pallets youre bad." Kind of thing. I just genuinely think Survivor is strong enough to not need god pallets if you know what youre doing while weaker killers like Myers, Trapper and Freddy need more chances to outplay M1 more often so they dont get gimped by pallet, hold W, pallet, hold W, pallet, hold W. 2 gens done, 0 hooks.
I genuinely loved the shack example that Scott gave because it's like "Huh? Shack becomes useless without having the god pallet? Since when?" Like man, if I see a healthy decent survivor running towards shack without pallet as an M1 killer I just leave them, not because I won't be able to down them, but because it will take STUPIDLY long to do so 😂
Even as survivor I despise playing on these new maps. There's no significant skill input there, almost all the loops are a guaranteed hit if you actually try to loop them instead of chaining them (which often isn't an option, especially with my next point) and once your teammates have pre-dropped half of the pallets 15 seconds into the match, it just becomes a complete dead zone where your only options are brainlessly holding W or just standing still and accepting your fate. I hate it.
As a player who’s just starting to play again after quitting right before onryo released, I almost feel forced to run windows of opportunity on any new map because all the pallets are unrecognizable boring rock and tree loops, I haven’t played in a while but I promise I can recognize Junglegyms, LTs, 4-walls, shack, etc and know how to run them, and it’s just way more enjoyable to play around those tiles.
Havent played dbd in a while. Been too busy with Baldurs Gate 3 and Helldiver's 2. Glad to see BHVR still doesn't understand how to populate maps with pallet variety lol. Windows and pallets THAT'S ONLY TWO THINGS BHVR HOW DO YOU MESS IT UP SO HARD.
I prefer few god pallets than 49 unsafe pallets, its just running w+predrop But with god pallets like shack you wan't play efficient and not waste the pallets its high risk high reward which is more fun. I fully agree with you. Today many Killers have anti-loop so even god pallets are not that strong anymore
as someone who enjoys chaining tiles and greeding pallets i despise the new way they do it too. its much more rewarding feeling to make a shit ton of distance from getting a stun with a strong pallet that needs to be kicked than to make a bit of distance a bunch of times because the killer is just walking at me.
i hope bvhr fixes their window balancing idea of "Lets have a hole in the wall right next to this window so that the killer will instantly delete the distance you wouldve gained by vaulting" (i have a grudge against the Borgo main building upstairs because of that stupid hole which makes the buildings upstairs so unsafe especially since theres 2 doorways below it and the staircase facing those doorways)
I always liked how Shack specifically encourages players to simply not use the pallet, so much so I can down someone at 1 gen left and they'll still take the L over dropping that pallet. The kind of interesting part of looping as survivor is always "is dropping this pallet worth the damage it will do later?" I do really like this aspect of the game. I wonder, as time goes on, if people will start to realise maps with high pallet counts always encourage safe play, because the cost of using these pallets is relatively little. Greenville Square is kind of interesting in some of the rock formations - most of the time you can chain one side of the mid-map "double pallet" structure into a filler into an actual tile. If the killer doesn't break the filler, then the loop extends back to the "double pallet" where the second pallet can be dropped. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but I do quite like the idea of having to think ahead for chained tiles, too. So I guess I don't have a strong preference either way, but I will say Hawkins is the worst offender due to RNG and LOS blockers. Sometimes you have no meaningful way of knowing if a pallet might be strong or might be weak until you've run clean around a bloated structure at least once. That doesn't really feel good on either side, Imo.
I'm glad you're talking about it, I had this issue with Nostromo and now the Theatre + some of the reworked maps share the same philosophy. With Hawkins I feel like it's a little bit different, you can use the room walls and go around corners, but I agree it has way too many unsafe pallets that force killers to M1.
The older style also felt better solo because if you're on theater and the randoms drop all the unsafe pallets on one corner of the map it instantly becomes a massive dead zone
The biggest problem with the new map in my opinion are the 2 pallets in the main building (cinema) there is the one outside window that is pretty safe, the window upstairs from the bathroom to the middle stairs is very unsafe, the one pallet inside is safe and the other pinball machine pallet is extremely unsafe, after you drop those 2 pallets, it becomes a dead zone, even if there is a pallet outside, that one is also unsafe and all you can do it maybe get 3 loops at most and you'll be dead anyway. This trend is getting more and more noticeable every new map and I do not like that as newcomers to the game have no idea how you can chain loops and use unsafe loops to your advantage
6000 hours mainly survivor, I love chaining tiles and playing risky jukes/fakes. That's like the highlight of my fun. It's so satisfying to get a killer to respect a pallet (say a jungle gym), uniquely path away from the tile (look up fungoose unique pathing if you don't know what that means), and get to a new tile and start over. I'm practically looping without ever actually using tiles. Maps like hawkins are super fun to do that on, but the new map with unknown for example is just so open that even that's kind of hard to do. Midwich is hit or miss with that depending on the killer.
actually all the jungle gyms are in the same spot but the variation of the jungle gym can be anything from a TL to a long wall so that's where the variability is, not where they actually are. i still think its dumb they weight a TL wall the same as a long wall, like theyre not even close, but thats on every map in the game
@@ScottJund yeah but as you said it is supposed to be a "strong tile chained into a weaker tile" meanwhile you get a 4 lane into a LT wall and a guy playing next set gets main window into tank tracks pallet into JG window
I’m a believer that they accidentally left all pallets on one spawn flag causing all the pallets to appear at once causing the double pallets and the total to be in the twenties. It feels like the double pallets are either intentional or the result of both versions of the loops pallet spawning.
My friends and I were talking about this in the unknown's map. As for Hawkins, send it back to the void. It was so much nicer without it. However, I'd take them every game with joy if I never again got the Knight's God awful, blood and diarrhoea coloured, pile of garbage map.
I would add the visual clutter, annoying thick fog like in Dead Dawg and Toba, vibrant colors that make it hard to see and kills your retinas, random map noises, random stuff in the tiles that you get stuck on, hold w and/or very safe main buildings against basic killers, bright lights that make it hard to see (Shelter Woods main, Lery's operation room, Hawkins glass room, Greenville Square main, parking lot and generally the whole map has an unpleasant lighting, in my opinion, at least).
I think it's important to note as well that Behaviour throws out extreme versions of things that they want to test. I think they listened to a type of map people were wanting to try, and really exaggerated it to see how certain killers would react. I really think it's mostly used for data collection for further map design, and not simply as "their new map design".
Good argument, but what's unfortunate is that with check spots, macmillan filler tiles are essentially all God pallets that need kicking, unless you have a chase power killer.
i just want variability. its boring on both extremes of pallet placements. When it's all short pallets I'm just bored because I don't have to think, I just run to the next avaialble one. When its all god pallets, same exact thing - but when i have the choice, I have the option to think about whether I need to use up a good resource or play an unsafe one to preserve it.
haven't fully watched the video so if you already said this, my idea for map design is.. first and foremost.. add more tiles, more unique vaults and fun loops, i liked when they spiced it up with toba landing there are like ramps weird vaults and weird tiles, the visual clutter in toba landing loops sucks though but, add more content that way for survivors. But if there are more tiles and more reusable resources obviously the maps are going to be "stronger", obviously yet again smaller maps should be a standard but make them smaller as well. in theory this should emphasize more on individual survivor micro play between the killer and survivor because of there being more actual tiles with windows ramps ect and not just unsafe loops where you drop it and run and chain and also on the killers macro play for winning, because the maps would be smaller there more opportunity for the killers macro play to show and make good plays
The unsafe pallet everywhere thing has been happening for years; they always either give a ton of terrible pallets or ridiculously strong maps for survivors like the Dredge's map.
7:50 a high pallet count also makes all newer maps lean survivor sided a LOT more than old maps even if they don't have anything particularly busted on it (so no Garden of Joy main) Since survivors start at maximum power and with full resources, they then have to conserve pallets and play around their limited resource instead of chaining tiles forever without a care. And not to mention the 50/50 aspect of many unsafe pallets that can lead to very long chases as some killers due to lack of anti-loop or simply bad luck It's nigh impossible to deprive survivors of pallets on new maps before all gens pop and that takes away a lot of strategy and skill imo
ngl scott i thought u were cringe 3 years ago, but other peoples opinions of you blurred influenced my opinion of you, even though i didnt even watch you - i genuinely really enjoy your videos and i love how you discuss topics like this. Keep it up bro.
On one of the newer maps you dont need to play the tiles it now just encourages shift w strats because you can waste pallets all you want and the killer has to take ages by breaking or let you set up a bunch of pallet vaults so it doesnt even work as being a bunch of fair tiles
I think their new map designs (and reworks) also add to the sense of frustration in certain perks like WOO. Old maps with original designs, WOO is completely fine. It actually lets you chain things together in a smarter way but you risk a hit or down if not played decently well. But the new maps and reworks, there’s a pallet every 5m or so and it takes away all thoughts, especially if you’re running WOO and know where 17 pallets in a row are.
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I play console and for the most part I get almost exclusively M1s because it’s easier to use my power as a mind game tool to trick survivors into trying to greed a pallet chain than it is to use the power to get a hit.
I lean to liking the new style a little more but wish they would trade a bit more trash tiles for a few more safe ones. I think the ideal style is hardly any dead zones toss one or two trashes in there more windows to give survivors something. not super strong and likely still going to lose on them but still has something to work with. with a few mind gameable junglegyms. they have way too much trash everywhere that makes powerstruggle background player super exploitable but no real chance for survivors to gain any momentum or distance if they do get a pallet stun in chase especially if they have an enduring build. ultimately there is not going to be the best design since so many killers do so many different things.
i think their philosophy now is to put out maps specifically to one side or the other, ie unknowns map and the infinite in dredges house surrounded with solid tiles
Can we talk about how bad the alien map is for Survivor and how they change the loops at the jungle gyms by making them have no window when they usually do or making them shorter while being really unsafe. I think that happens on the unknown map sometimes. They need make tiles consistent across all maps.
Personally I just like there to be enough variety between different map styles that they can make for more dynamic matches dependent on not just the map but a certain killer on that map. I'm also glad that they're still experimenting with new map layouts over churning out the same map with different visuals over and over.
I hate unsafe tiles cause cant be curved with billis chainsaw, like they are so short that you either get the chainsaw rigth on the survs ass or they have time to make a turn because the loop is small or they run to another tile and camp the pallet
Hawkins is what good map design looks like imo. The pallets look unsafe but if you know how to use them and can transition them properly, you have essentially good loops. some cases god loops if the killer dont break the pallet. also, all exhaustion perks for are a viable option on Hawkins
Not really related but I'm gonna say it anyway: Who decided it was a good idea to make remixes of the MacMillan estate maps, which already has 5 different maps with different structures, than make remixes for realms with only one or two maps like Eyrie, Yamaoka, or Crotus Prenn to spice them up some more??
Another problem is the new map and maps like it don't have a lot of windows. Windows are a huge expression of survivor skill (and killer skill) along with a suite of perks that cannot be used much if there are few windows.
I don’t mind either, it really depends on the killer I’m playing honestly, both can be annoying in their own ways, I hate the rng that comes with the old maps, especially on that Macmillan map with the mine shaft, the middle part can have so many windows around each other it becomes unplayable as most killers, I think i’d prefer the old maps if they weren’t so rng based, but since there’s so much rng on the old maps I prefer a mix of old and new style maps
Something I want to know your thoughts on scott is what you think about the new maps shape, because imo that map along with the with the autohaven map that are just thin rectangles are miserable to play on both sides. as killer it feels like an obligation to defend just half the map and ignore the other half, and obviously as survivor you got to break the closest gens but all that means is playing like for the gen instantly every time and it is so boring
In 5 years you’ll load into a match and it will just be a coin toss when you get to a pallet. You bot get a prompt to chose heads or tails and If you lose you magically get injured and the loop disappears then you go to the next. Coin flip simulator basically.
scott i would agree with you about shack but my soloq teammates in 60% of my games throw shack before i ever see it on 0 or 1 hooks without even trying to play for the window
The only way to put it is this: - BHVR makes Gideon Meat Plant : The Game and everyone hates it because it's filled to the brim with pallets which makes early game extremely awful for killers who have to now chase a survivor for an hour who will drop or greed every pallet, with any extra stuns potentially buying the rest of their team minutes if it's going poorly. - BHVR sees the community complain about the map to this day due to it's many, many, MANY design issues that come from the high over abundance of pallets. - BHVR releases Red Sqaure with a bug that causes basically an infinite amount of pallets to spawn, players hate it, same complaints as Gideon x 10. - BHVR reworks and rereleases maps that were fine by adding even more pallets to them, people complain but not as loud cause there was a little more restraint ala Autohaven Wreckers realm and MacMillan realm. - BHVR gets SOME positive feedback on Theater but complaints about TOO MANY pallets is real, and despite a cool two sided pallet design the spam is hated. - BHVR adds even more pallets, more complaints occur. Conclusion: When pallets exist for a reason in the agme it's fun, when pallets are spammed players hate it, water is wet.
I really wasn’t a huge fan of the most recent Haddonfield rework because (without playing and testing), it felt like mostly weak (or strong but single use), highly spaced out windows, and then nothing but pallets. Would you say that’s the sorta new map design you’re referring to?
I mostly agree, except for when I'm playing solo queue. Macro gameplay and managing resources is fine when I'm in a swf but not when some rando is dropping every single pallet immediately like they're in a 1v1
i thought this kind of map design was tied only to the new map, the last one we got was nostromo and while being not a great map, it still has some stronger pallets and weaker ones, same with Toba, good and bad ones
Nice video. You perfectly articulated why I hate the new map. I play against a lot of coordinated teams with players that have 5,000+ hours, and with the current Background Player shenanigans, every single down is easily contestable. It's a struggle enough as it is to get strong players down when they can loop, but when you can't even easily hook the survivor, the game is basically unwinnable. I heard OhTofu talking about the new map on a recent stream of his. He loves the design philosophy of having tons of pallets everywhere that are unsafe. He said that only bad killers struggle on the new map because they kick too many pallets. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.
new map as a billy main is easily one of the worst in my opinion, because any time I rev the saw they just leave the loop and go to the next pallet and over and over again. the only time you can successfully get a down with the saw is when you activate overdrive. new map is is just forcing you to m1 only and it is boring.
Hawkins was completely unupdated from before it was rereleased. One of the newer ones is Alien's map, and that has the new patterns you talked about here. I will say I DO love the steam vents on alien map. Map hazards would be great to have in new maps.
The only good times I had on Hawkins as killer was me using Freddy with fake paletts and Enduring/Spirit Fury. Or me just getting lucky to get relative new players. And I think I am one of a few to say that but I actually like The Game map while playing killer. I hate it more when I play survivor and I don't even know why
Love how my phone notif cut this down to "Scott Jund: I don't like Behaviour". Good job RUclips.
You could say… it was… a pretty good job….
So far……..
@@iTz_ParZ terrible place for this
@@akdreamer6497 Nah let'em cook chief
The funniest part is, if you consider behavior as a company, they're actually a really good company. One of the very few companies in the gaming industry that doesn't shit all over their employees
Fr I thought the same thing
It's been literal years, and Big Scott still doesn't let Little Scott talk. Look at that lil fella! Let him speak!
I think they should kiss
Imagine carrying Little Scott in your shirt pocket. 🥰
lil scot c:
@@blehwhatever4890 I literally once commissioned a Li'l scot in Big Scoot's shoulder
Whoever on their team thinks its sensible to give every little pos cable,twig and leaf a hitbox really needs to stop with the drugs.
Especially when playing Bubba. Sometimes you'll hit thin air and trigger a tantrum.
@@HTGY6YTH67Y*agreeable billy grunts*
It takes no effort. They just smack the meshes in and have the engine auto generate collision on everything. It'd take ACTUAL work (which obv they dont want to do) to take them out or do it manually like a real dev team.
@@HTGY6YTH67Ymy wesker tripping on his shoelaces because of a pebble with the hit box of a car
@@Pikochabi "wtf did I just bounce off of?"
Vastly prefer the older map design to the new 'obnoxious clutter everywhere, weird shidboxes, 1000 LOS breakers, interconnected but weak pallets smile'
My tinfoil hat theory is that Huntress was buffed as a pre-emptive strike because they know theres more of these same clutter maps to come and buffing huntress fixes her issues before the complaining starts.
New map is basically like if you designed a map around holding W.
thats exactly what survivor is
@@asmith8190he means for killer, some killers holding W isn’t the play in some situations but all these maps force holding W to be the favoured play style because most loops are too tight/small to use charge based powers
New map is poorly designed for looping
@@asmith8190 that's what survivor is when each pallet is unsafe, i.e. because of new design...
@@asmith8190 - the opinion of someone whos never played survivor
I think there's something to be said for the new map design in that they tend to be less RNG-reliant than the old styles and give you more options against the distance-denial Killers than the old style. Coal Tower, especially CT2, is notoriously RNG reliant because when the combination of super strong setups and shitty pallets happens to roll the dice badly one side or the other is going to have an awful time. That's to say nothing of how egregiously silly distance-denial Killers can be in circumstances where maps have fewer, stronger tiles.
E.G. put a Blight or Huntress on Coal Tower, there's a good chance that the Survivor leaving the tile will get hit before they can make the next one because the density of resources may not be sufficient to make them not just get a free hit in transition between tiles. But Blight or Huntress on Greenville is far less likely to put you in that no-win scenario because the Survivor is way more likely to be able to make the next resource. Same reason maps have more clutter nowadays: a blank void between tiles means dash and projectile Killers become utterly obnoxious unless you're already inside a tile. It doesn't matter how well you play the tile if you having to leave it means you die instantly because the map RNG didn't take into account the 230% speed Scottish man running you down because the next pallet wasn't four inches from the one that came before it.
EDIT: I don't have a particular preference between older or newer maps so I don't have any biases one way or another, I just think we can't ignore the fact that distance denial Killers are so popular and map design has changed to reflect that.
Yap
yep there's no real correct answer here. a lot of the discussion is entirely dependent on the killer you are playing. naturally, the killers i've mained (huntress, demo, billy) etc all hate this new style so therefore i do
@@suckerpunch8556😭
@@suckerpunch8556oh no, a comment with more than 20 words!
So we're making strong killers (like Blight or Billy) weaker, and weak killers (like all the M1s) stronger by new map design. What's wrong with that?
...
I don't think god pallets make sense at all, they are boring in every case. Even if we think of the resource-burning macro gameplay (which can be fun, but I don't think it's more fun than actually outplaying your opponent), you can still reduce the amount of "rng points" worth by breaking a few of the unsafe pallets. With that, you're making that area much weaker, but the survivor still has a slight chance to outplay you. If we're making deadzones, the game just becomes boring, because it's like "yeah, there's nothing here, I'm surely gonna die" instead of "yeah I'm gonna do my best to outplay the killer on this aweful pallet". For me it's always the best feeling to outplay the killer on an unsafe tile, because it takes skills like good read of your opponent, knowing the killer's power, etc.
For the first time in like 7 years of playing this, I went down instantly on the unknowns Map and had no idea what I could have done better. In every direction I saw no pallets or structures or anything. I could barely orient myself to where the edges and the centre was. Really weird map that breaks many dbd map conventions.
Map is trash all around. There’s 100 awful pallets and 6 of the 7 gens are in a chain on only one half of the map
Ever since Garden of Joy it's been hard to tell where the map just ends :(
you gotta stop looping like a veteran and start looping like a noob (mindgame & hold w). all you have in these maps is distance. if you try to loop you die
Hard agree. The new map is basically a godsend for killers like clown or wraith but super boring for most killers. If you charge any power whether it be a dash or a chainsaw or a hatchet the survivor can just leave and play the next pallet. It reduces gameplay down to m1 simulator
i like the new map as huntress, good mix of vision blockers and free space to land crossmaps
what is scott is describing when he says that skilled teams are nightmare to play against is what the game is suppose to be. Your suppose to work together to survive. your not suppose chain 5 god pallets and finish 3 gens before killer get 1 hook. that is bad design. Downing survivor in dead-zones is skill-less game design. Chaining tiles is how survivor is suppose express skill. there is no skill to express as survivor is if the loop is loop twice then put down pallet. killer kicks pallet. hold-w. that is entirely why gideon is terribly designed map. The remote idea that this was ever good gameplay is staggering. I can't think of any of older killer that struggle in new map design. if anything, most of them are stronger. Trapper is m1 killer, more unsafe loop = less reliance on traps. Wraith m1. Myer's, m1, can stalk over loops sometimes. The only killer that get hurt by new design is Billy and Bubba because these two killer were designed around "destroying" the map.
@@dodang_9147 it's not difficult for a survivor on the new map to just run between loops dropping the occasional pallet and getting hit by losing a 50 50. It is difficult however for a team to manage 13 decent pallets throughout the match. Killers are designed to either outplay the loop eg: huntress blight or hillbilly. Or they're designed to get rid of resources fast eg: bubba clown singularity. The new map basically just forces killers into playing an m1 game only which isn't fun. When I play Billy I want to curve and outplay loops, when I play blight I want to use bump logic to outplay a strong jungle gym. Can't do that on the new map because the loops are basically just diversions. Not to mention there's still plenty of decent pallets on that map and it's also huge.
The reward for charge killers playing map control and working away the pallets in an area is a very satisfying and rapid instadown/hit/status effect. It's the presence of god pallets with dead zones that creates the need for 360 saws (and running instasaw or reload add ons) or survivors just get run down in a corner because the most they can do is give the killer a longer walk. Having lots of weak pallets limits the killers ability to use their power without limiting the power itself. The counterpoint to many pallets causing M1 scenarios is god pallets causing kick scenarios and dead zones causing boring chases.
@@bigbrainonimain9226 god pallets are not about managing resources. they're about using the resource to get a gen lead and closing out the game lead. In essence, 1 looper is all it takes to win the game. Every map plays like Gideon's with god pallets. You spam throw pallets, killer loses 3-4 gens. the killer cannot go play for hooks, so they 3 gen camp because map is busted as F. In order for killers to balance broken map design, they have to ignore 50% of the map. The new map design allows killer to move around the map and actively take chases because they can physically mindgame loops. it is healthy gameplay. Skilled survivors are hard to catch, trash loopers die in seconds. God pallet design allows trash loopers to "loop" the killer.
I think the fundamental difference between Hawkins and Greenville Square is that Hawkins being all corridors encourages the very boring hold W predrop pallet playstyle, very akin to old RPD (which is obviously just very boring).
In comparison, Greenville Square has you play those weak pallets to chain to stronger structures (shack, main, jungle gymx2), so in contrast to older map design, early in the game it's possible to chain weak tiles into strong ones, but later the lack of central pallets makes chaining into and out of strong structures very risky.
Greenville Square still HAS strong tiles, but new map design has you play weaker pallets to gain consistent access, which I personally think is better. Meanwhile, Hawkins has nothing amazingly strong to chain into, so you really are just chaining weak pallet x10 until you die.
Also re killer powers, I feel that's a Hawkins/Indoor issue rather than a new map design issue. Greenville filler pallets are generally just as accessible as normal maps for most killer powers, save the hilarious double pallet tile.
one of the huge reasons why very few, maybe none, of the "newer" maps have ever been used for any remotely "comp" setting, is because the pallets/tiles on maps since toba landing are nothing more than coin tosses when being played, that plus being on a giant map with a stupid main building..... yes ik this game isnt designed around comp but my point is that comp will pick maps that are considered to be for the most part as as possible for , and wouldnt you know, a large handful of matches are played on macmillan and azarov maps..... the shape of maps + pallets that are only "god pallets" when used by very experienced players (who yes still get hit at them) are my favorites and its such a shame we've had nothing close to the oldest maps in so long now
I'm glad you made this video because I was really gaslighting myself on the new Cinema map.
I hated the Main Building, it never felt safe.
I tried to make the Pallets in the rocky areas, they never worked.
Map felt like there was a BUNCH of dead space. It was aesthetically pleasing, but God it was frustrating. Felt like I could never escape even M1 killers as Survivor.
I'm fine if a Killer uses their power to surpass me, ie Xeno Tail, Dredge Remnant, UVX, Billy Saw, etc... but never being able to have a chance at escaping a Wraith or a Trapper because there are no good structures and I'm only an 800 hour player, it feels terrible.
Oh same, try going against a Bubba on that map. There is nothing safe to loop him around or trick him into bumping to go into Tantrum (unless he gets stunned or bumps an object just as he downs you), all he has to do is just hold W while using his chainsaw and he just gains ground.
Now, maybe I'm just bad against Bubba, but idk, Greenville Isle just feels so bad to play on as killer or survivor.
I agree, can't really use my power as Demo on the new style maps since they're made in such way.
It's pretty much force pallet drop, play 50/50s with M1.
Ofc if you break it there's a good chance they'll just get to another one.
i knew i wasn’t tweaking. whenever i play the unknown’s map and complain about how garbage all the unsafe pallets are my friends call me bad.
They are terrible, a killer that can’t down you in under a minute on that map should relearn how to play the game.
yeah the new map is outdoor Hawkins, we need some middle ground between those 2 and Gideons
Not to mention the clutter of hooks everywhere. Toolboxes/Hook sabotages have zero affect on the Unknowns map cause there's a hook right next to another. Same goes for the Silent Hill map too.
@@mreyespy551there’s sooooo much shit on all of the new maps, I feel like they’ve been doing this since eyrie of crows was released. There’s clutter everywhere and every tiny little thing has a hit box. There’s line of site breakers and then there’s just ridiculous visual noise.
Oh God, glad to know I wasn't going crazy about that map either.
I was trying to figure out for the life of me why I was having such a bad time as killer or survivor on that map (I have maybe won one match on each side on that map), like it feels too big, too cluttered to be able to get any kind of "use" out of the map, if that makes sense.
Going down or getting outplayed in places I don't on other maps, am glad to know it's just not me.
The older generation allowed a lot more skill to run the tiles and mindgaming them. The new ones are just survivors holding w to a pallet and getting m1ed in a 50/50
The newer maps feel like they were all put in the hands of the design team, then the balance team just comes in and slaps in some pallets wherever they can fit them.
The problem with old maps is when it generates strong loop, next to another strong loop, next to shack window, into another strong loop.. At least when every pallet is weak, the RNG is less likely to decide a match
When Behavior makes maps smaller and smaller, EVERYTHING ELSE gets nerfed! Survivors lost distance on injury. Gen slow down perks was nerfed into the ground. Tiles get more frequent due to a crammed map which means they must be unsafe to balance the chases. It's INSANE! All this BS due to Behavior and killers wanting a smaller map. I'm a killer main, I was not for this dumpster idea to make maps smaller. Trials end much faster which was a small benefit but it dont feel like DBD.
Small adjustments to make the maps smaller RUINED the tile set up and nerfs had to follow.
@@SweetLeavesXbox1 To be fair, cutting the size of mother's dwelling really helped that map not be as busted as it was.
@whoudini7935 There is a map Variant of Mothers Dwelling where Huntress can defend 4 different gens by standing on 1 hill.
@@SweetLeavesXbox1 That's a separate issue that effects most maps in the game. It could easily be solved if they just spread gens out or put up LOS blockers. Mother's dwelling regardless of what occurs now had 0 business being as big as it was.
Scott, you said your pov as a killer for preferring old maps design, and for me as a survivor, I would say playing jungle gyms, and different tiles, that have multiple mindgames, multiple plays you can do, is far better than just a shitty pallet with almost same 50/50 mindgame each time, I don’t know why some people prefer new pallets, even who plays killer. Old maps design is the best.
So basically it balances itself out. I was raging then and i'm still raging now
I think it's interesting to have a spread of different maps, where each maps makes you have to play it a little differently, it adds to keeping things fresh. While I agree, having a balance of tile strength is better overall, and should probably take up most of the map pool, I can appreciate that some maps are a little different like this, where some maps are a weak pallet fest of 50/50s. Just don't make it the norm, and I'm happy with that.
I agree, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this conundrum. It's just a matter of not making every single map have nothing but dead space and unsafe pallets, as much as we all like to complain about pallets we still need strong tiles as well.
About god pallets - as a surv there's no better feeling than looping at shack then mindgaming a killer into mindgame while you leave the shack - meaning that all that time killer wasted in shack is just that - wasted time, no god pallet for them.
In the background video, that Nickolas Cage was cooking
Never thought about it like that but its a good point about new killers. Chucky can just crawl under them, singularity can walk through them, unknown can shoot over them, xeno can m2 over them.
It is like a weird macro power creep thing. Make maps with new philosophy, make new killers to thrive in that environment. I think the issue is its not like these killers are bad on more traditionally designed maps, so they just get an advantage with no downside. Not sure what to make of this.
Was just discussing this with a friend a few days ago as well, the last 7 killers have all been antiloop style killers with some having extremely bloated kits(unknown). And their new maps are designed to be anti loop, so games now days just feel like run as far as possible before going down to maximize chase time.
I enjoy the older style of maps since i can't really do all of those techs (fov, spins, those kinds of things) when I'm caught in a deadzone or something. I enjoy chaining the loops together and just having raw looping skill with each tile (check spotting, micro-fakes, window faking, etc) since that's most rewarding for me as opposed to just playing 50/50's at every unsafe pallet that's about as long as a singular haybale on coldwind. Obviously those pallets should exist but it shouldn't be nearly every single one in a map, it just breeds an unfun experience for both sides since you're not doing much aside from flipping a coin and guessing heads or tails.
Also having next to no safe pallets means some killers will just wait for bloodlust and since all the tiles are unsafe you can’t force a pallet break
Wow great video Scott i derived deep pleasure from hearing your point of view can't wait to hear from you again
Agreed, I used this video for my daily jelqing session.
I think weak pallets that allow both sides to play around it are better.
A good survivor should be able to loop and waste a killers time with pathing and vaults alone. I've been able to loop killers by chaining tiles and vaults and only dropping maybe 1 pallet if they have mamaged to catch up to me then continue holding W.
While it doesnt ALWAYS last super long it has made a few killers ignore me all game and go for others until I went for unhooks in unsafe areas.
Point is I dont think god pallets are necessary, and this isnt any kind of gatekeep-y "If you need god pallets youre bad." Kind of thing. I just genuinely think Survivor is strong enough to not need god pallets if you know what youre doing while weaker killers like Myers, Trapper and Freddy need more chances to outplay M1 more often so they dont get gimped by pallet, hold W, pallet, hold W, pallet, hold W. 2 gens done, 0 hooks.
I genuinely loved the shack example that Scott gave because it's like "Huh? Shack becomes useless without having the god pallet? Since when?" Like man, if I see a healthy decent survivor running towards shack without pallet as an M1 killer I just leave them, not because I won't be able to down them, but because it will take STUPIDLY long to do so 😂
Even as survivor I despise playing on these new maps.
There's no significant skill input there, almost all the loops are a guaranteed hit if you actually try to loop them instead of chaining them (which often isn't an option, especially with my next point) and once your teammates have pre-dropped half of the pallets 15 seconds into the match, it just becomes a complete dead zone where your only options are brainlessly holding W or just standing still and accepting your fate.
I hate it.
As a player who’s just starting to play again after quitting right before onryo released, I almost feel forced to run windows of opportunity on any new map because all the pallets are unrecognizable boring rock and tree loops, I haven’t played in a while but I promise I can recognize Junglegyms, LTs, 4-walls, shack, etc and know how to run them, and it’s just way more enjoyable to play around those tiles.
Havent played dbd in a while. Been too busy with Baldurs Gate 3 and Helldiver's 2. Glad to see BHVR still doesn't understand how to populate maps with pallet variety lol.
Windows and pallets THAT'S ONLY TWO THINGS BHVR HOW DO YOU MESS IT UP SO HARD.
I prefer few god pallets than 49 unsafe pallets, its just running w+predrop
But with god pallets like shack you wan't play efficient and not waste the pallets its high risk high reward which is more fun.
I fully agree with you.
Today many Killers have anti-loop so even god pallets are not that strong anymore
Those huge rock - pallet -small rock+tree loops are not unsafe lol
Killers: "I much prefer all these unsafe pallets!" I bet.
as someone who enjoys chaining tiles and greeding pallets i despise the new way they do it too. its much more rewarding feeling to make a shit ton of distance from getting a stun with a strong pallet that needs to be kicked than to make a bit of distance a bunch of times because the killer is just walking at me.
i hope bvhr fixes their window balancing idea of "Lets have a hole in the wall right next to this window so that the killer will instantly delete the distance you wouldve gained by vaulting"
(i have a grudge against the Borgo main building upstairs because of that stupid hole which makes the buildings upstairs so unsafe especially since theres 2 doorways below it and the staircase facing those doorways)
Rancid Abattoir has a great main building I think. Borgo's main building is a dead zone pretty much.
I always liked how Shack specifically encourages players to simply not use the pallet, so much so I can down someone at 1 gen left and they'll still take the L over dropping that pallet. The kind of interesting part of looping as survivor is always "is dropping this pallet worth the damage it will do later?" I do really like this aspect of the game. I wonder, as time goes on, if people will start to realise maps with high pallet counts always encourage safe play, because the cost of using these pallets is relatively little.
Greenville Square is kind of interesting in some of the rock formations - most of the time you can chain one side of the mid-map "double pallet" structure into a filler into an actual tile. If the killer doesn't break the filler, then the loop extends back to the "double pallet" where the second pallet can be dropped. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but I do quite like the idea of having to think ahead for chained tiles, too.
So I guess I don't have a strong preference either way, but I will say Hawkins is the worst offender due to RNG and LOS blockers. Sometimes you have no meaningful way of knowing if a pallet might be strong or might be weak until you've run clean around a bloated structure at least once. That doesn't really feel good on either side, Imo.
I agree with you Scott, I like being able to manage resources in this game. I feel like a better player when I’m not just pre dropping pallets.
I'm glad you're talking about it, I had this issue with Nostromo and now the Theatre + some of the reworked maps share the same philosophy. With Hawkins I feel like it's a little bit different, you can use the room walls and go around corners, but I agree it has way too many unsafe pallets that force killers to M1.
The older style also felt better solo because if you're on theater and the randoms drop all the unsafe pallets on one corner of the map it instantly becomes a massive dead zone
Thank god some one else is noticing that every game I go into now it’s constant unsafe pallets where it’s just 50/50
The biggest problem with the new map in my opinion are the 2 pallets in the main building (cinema) there is the one outside window that is pretty safe, the window upstairs from the bathroom to the middle stairs is very unsafe, the one pallet inside is safe and the other pinball machine pallet is extremely unsafe, after you drop those 2 pallets, it becomes a dead zone, even if there is a pallet outside, that one is also unsafe and all you can do it maybe get 3 loops at most and you'll be dead anyway.
This trend is getting more and more noticeable every new map and I do not like that as newcomers to the game have no idea how you can chain loops and use unsafe loops to your advantage
6000 hours mainly survivor, I love chaining tiles and playing risky jukes/fakes. That's like the highlight of my fun. It's so satisfying to get a killer to respect a pallet (say a jungle gym), uniquely path away from the tile (look up fungoose unique pathing if you don't know what that means), and get to a new tile and start over. I'm practically looping without ever actually using tiles. Maps like hawkins are super fun to do that on, but the new map with unknown for example is just so open that even that's kind of hard to do. Midwich is hit or miss with that depending on the killer.
How is Hawkins new? It's almost 5 years old at this point.
A good loop money system consists of not just many $1 bills but of a variety of high and low values.
Loving all the content recently
Thanks scooter
Scott making an example out of CT when it is one of the most rng heavy maps🥶
actually all the jungle gyms are in the same spot but the variation of the jungle gym can be anything from a TL to a long wall so that's where the variability is, not where they actually are. i still think its dumb they weight a TL wall the same as a long wall, like theyre not even close, but thats on every map in the game
@@ScottJundthe fillers make a big difference too, you can get like 3 god fillers outside shack or nothing at all
@@ScottJund yeah but as you said it is supposed to be a "strong tile chained into a weaker tile" meanwhile you get a 4 lane into a LT wall and a guy playing next set gets main window into tank tracks pallet into JG window
@@QeseuIf you watch Scott for a little while, you'll see him frequently cherry pick examples and skew perception to channel a vibe.
@@misteral9045 bitch i literally just loaded up a random coal tower to talk about the old map designs its not that deep you lunatic
I’m a believer that they accidentally left all pallets on one spawn flag causing all the pallets to appear at once causing the double pallets and the total to be in the twenties. It feels like the double pallets are either intentional or the result of both versions of the loops pallet spawning.
My friends and I were talking about this in the unknown's map. As for Hawkins, send it back to the void. It was so much nicer without it.
However, I'd take them every game with joy if I never again got the Knight's God awful, blood and diarrhoea coloured, pile of garbage map.
The Knight update is just crap in general. Even the survivor is meh in every aspect.
I would add the visual clutter, annoying thick fog like in Dead Dawg and Toba, vibrant colors that make it hard to see and kills your retinas, random map noises, random stuff in the tiles that you get stuck on, hold w and/or very safe main buildings against basic killers, bright lights that make it hard to see (Shelter Woods main, Lery's operation room, Hawkins glass room, Greenville Square main, parking lot and generally the whole map has an unpleasant lighting, in my opinion, at least).
I think it's important to note as well that Behaviour throws out extreme versions of things that they want to test. I think they listened to a type of map people were wanting to try, and really exaggerated it to see how certain killers would react. I really think it's mostly used for data collection for further map design, and not simply as "their new map design".
Good argument, but what's unfortunate is that with check spots, macmillan filler tiles are essentially all God pallets that need kicking, unless you have a chase power killer.
i just want variability. its boring on both extremes of pallet placements. When it's all short pallets I'm just bored because I don't have to think, I just run to the next avaialble one. When its all god pallets, same exact thing - but when i have the choice, I have the option to think about whether I need to use up a good resource or play an unsafe one to preserve it.
haven't fully watched the video so if you already said this, my idea for map design is..
first and foremost.. add more tiles, more unique vaults and fun loops, i liked when they spiced it up with toba landing there are like ramps weird vaults and weird tiles, the visual clutter in toba landing loops sucks though but, add more content that way for survivors.
But if there are more tiles and more reusable resources obviously the maps are going to be "stronger", obviously yet again smaller maps should be a standard but make them smaller as well.
in theory this should emphasize more on individual survivor micro play between the killer and survivor because of there being more actual tiles with windows ramps ect and not just unsafe loops where you drop it and run and chain
and also on the killers macro play for winning, because the maps would be smaller there more opportunity for the killers macro play to show and make good plays
The unsafe pallet everywhere thing has been happening for years; they always either give a ton of terrible pallets or ridiculously strong maps for survivors like the Dredge's map.
7:50 a high pallet count also makes all newer maps lean survivor sided a LOT more than old maps even if they don't have anything particularly busted on it (so no Garden of Joy main)
Since survivors start at maximum power and with full resources, they then have to conserve pallets and play around their limited resource instead of chaining tiles forever without a care. And not to mention the 50/50 aspect of many unsafe pallets that can lead to very long chases as some killers due to lack of anti-loop or simply bad luck
It's nigh impossible to deprive survivors of pallets on new maps before all gens pop and that takes away a lot of strategy and skill imo
I had a game on the Unknowns map where 3 people brought any means necessary and forced me to break every pallet
i havent played dbd in a while so i dont know how much i agree but what do you mean by this 8:02?
ngl scott i thought u were cringe 3 years ago, but other peoples opinions of you blurred influenced my opinion of you, even though i didnt even watch you - i genuinely really enjoy your videos and i love how you discuss topics like this. Keep it up bro.
On one of the newer maps you dont need to play the tiles it now just encourages shift w strats because you can waste pallets all you want and the killer has to take ages by breaking or let you set up a bunch of pallet vaults so it doesnt even work as being a bunch of fair tiles
I think their new map designs (and reworks) also add to the sense of frustration in certain perks like WOO. Old maps with original designs, WOO is completely fine. It actually lets you chain things together in a smarter way but you risk a hit or down if not played decently well. But the new maps and reworks, there’s a pallet every 5m or so and it takes away all thoughts, especially if you’re running WOO and know where 17 pallets in a row are.
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I play console and for the most part I get almost exclusively M1s because it’s easier to use my power as a mind game tool to trick survivors into trying to greed a pallet chain than it is to use the power to get a hit.
What I’ve noticed is that there’s like 20 decent pallets on older maps, to 1000 really trash pallets in the newer maps
What is even worse that there are no windows. Since the borgo, everything is: pallet, pallet, pallet.
“I’ve been playing since 2016 so that means I have all the answers”
I lean to liking the new style a little more but wish they would trade a bit more trash tiles for a few more safe ones. I think the ideal style is hardly any dead zones toss one or two trashes in there more windows to give survivors something. not super strong and likely still going to lose on them but still has something to work with. with a few mind gameable junglegyms. they have way too much trash everywhere that makes powerstruggle background player super exploitable but no real chance for survivors to gain any momentum or distance if they do get a pallet stun in chase especially if they have an enduring build. ultimately there is not going to be the best design since so many killers do so many different things.
Take a shot every time scott says "pallet" 😂
Guys I think there might be unsafe pallets. I'm not sure though.
i think their philosophy now is to put out maps specifically to one side or the other, ie unknowns map and the infinite in dredges house surrounded with solid tiles
Hawkins is one of my fav Maps as Killer, together with Springwood and Silent Hill
Can we talk about how bad the alien map is for Survivor and how they change the loops at the jungle gyms by making them have no window when they usually do or making them shorter while being really unsafe. I think that happens on the unknown map sometimes. They need make tiles consistent across all maps.
big agree from me. i like the macro aspect of taking/managing god/good pallets. i think it's interesting as a survivor, even
So run EnFury, heard you loud and clear
Personally I just like there to be enough variety between different map styles that they can make for more dynamic matches dependent on not just the map but a certain killer on that map. I'm also glad that they're still experimenting with new map layouts over churning out the same map with different visuals over and over.
I hate unsafe tiles cause cant be curved with billis chainsaw, like they are so short that you either get the chainsaw rigth on the survs ass or they have time to make a turn because the loop is small or they run to another tile and camp the pallet
Hawkins is what good map design looks like imo. The pallets look unsafe but if you know how to use them and can transition them properly, you have essentially good loops. some cases god loops if the killer dont break the pallet. also, all exhaustion perks for are a viable option on Hawkins
When is the update coming
Not really related but I'm gonna say it anyway: Who decided it was a good idea to make remixes of the MacMillan estate maps, which already has 5 different maps with different structures, than make remixes for realms with only one or two maps like Eyrie, Yamaoka, or Crotus Prenn to spice them up some more??
"This can be a jungle gym" fuckin giggled
Another problem is the new map and maps like it don't have a lot of windows. Windows are a huge expression of survivor skill (and killer skill) along with a suite of perks that cannot be used much if there are few windows.
I don’t mind either, it really depends on the killer I’m playing honestly, both can be annoying in their own ways, I hate the rng that comes with the old maps, especially on that Macmillan map with the mine shaft, the middle part can have so many windows around each other it becomes unplayable as most killers, I think i’d prefer the old maps if they weren’t so rng based, but since there’s so much rng on the old maps I prefer a mix of old and new style maps
Just helps to make windows even more meta than it already is with how they just flood the map with pallets.
Something I want to know your thoughts on scott is what you think about the new maps shape, because imo that map along with the with the autohaven map that are just thin rectangles are miserable to play on both sides. as killer it feels like an obligation to defend just half the map and ignore the other half, and obviously as survivor you got to break the closest gens but all that means is playing like for the gen instantly every time and it is so boring
In 5 years you’ll load into a match and it will just be a coin toss when you get to a pallet. You bot get a prompt to chose heads or tails and If you lose you magically get injured and the loop disappears then you go to the next.
Coin flip simulator basically.
scott i would agree with you about shack but my soloq teammates in 60% of my games throw shack before i ever see it on 0 or 1 hooks without even trying to play for the window
The only way to put it is this:
- BHVR makes Gideon Meat Plant : The Game and everyone hates it because it's filled to the brim with pallets which makes early game extremely awful for killers who have to now chase a survivor for an hour who will drop or greed every pallet, with any extra stuns potentially buying the rest of their team minutes if it's going poorly.
- BHVR sees the community complain about the map to this day due to it's many, many, MANY design issues that come from the high over abundance of pallets.
- BHVR releases Red Sqaure with a bug that causes basically an infinite amount of pallets to spawn, players hate it, same complaints as Gideon x 10.
- BHVR reworks and rereleases maps that were fine by adding even more pallets to them, people complain but not as loud cause there was a little more restraint ala Autohaven Wreckers realm and MacMillan realm.
- BHVR gets SOME positive feedback on Theater but complaints about TOO MANY pallets is real, and despite a cool two sided pallet design the spam is hated.
- BHVR adds even more pallets, more complaints occur.
Conclusion: When pallets exist for a reason in the agme it's fun, when pallets are spammed players hate it, water is wet.
I really wasn’t a huge fan of the most recent Haddonfield rework because (without playing and testing), it felt like mostly weak (or strong but single use), highly spaced out windows, and then nothing but pallets. Would you say that’s the sorta new map design you’re referring to?
The new loops are like playing old Spirit plus Alien can hit you over all of them.
Kinda makes me wish BHVR made more interesting tiles as a whole, but I don't know how good they can actually make gimmicky unique tiles.
I mostly agree, except for when I'm playing solo queue. Macro gameplay and managing resources is fine when I'm in a swf but not when some rando is dropping every single pallet immediately like they're in a 1v1
DbD is such a unique game. Almost a decade in and we are still arguing about what the core gameplay is supposed to look like.
i thought this kind of map design was tied only to the new map, the last one we got was nostromo and while being not a great map, it still has some stronger pallets and weaker ones, same with Toba, good and bad ones
It's on those maps too. Alien map has a good main building but the rest is these bad pallets.
Nice video. You perfectly articulated why I hate the new map. I play against a lot of coordinated teams with players that have 5,000+ hours, and with the current Background Player shenanigans, every single down is easily contestable. It's a struggle enough as it is to get strong players down when they can loop, but when you can't even easily hook the survivor, the game is basically unwinnable. I heard OhTofu talking about the new map on a recent stream of his. He loves the design philosophy of having tons of pallets everywhere that are unsafe. He said that only bad killers struggle on the new map because they kick too many pallets. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that.
Serious question. Should unsafe pallets just be pre-dropped even before chase?
not always. sometimes the stun is the only thing that lets you get away
unsafe pallets should either be played for a stun or chained into another tile
On the Unknown map's double pallet tiles, it's probably better to have one of the pallets dropped before the killer gets there (i.e comp drop).
new map as a billy main is easily one of the worst in my opinion, because any time I rev the saw they just leave the loop and go to the next pallet and over and over again. the only time you can successfully get a down with the saw is when you activate overdrive. new map is is just forcing you to m1 only and it is boring.
For me it’s just the number of pallets in general. Just cut them all by 10%
Hawkins was completely unupdated from before it was rereleased. One of the newer ones is Alien's map, and that has the new patterns you talked about here. I will say I DO love the steam vents on alien map. Map hazards would be great to have in new maps.
My only issue is that I feel like maps should be bigger. To make 3 gening harder, they should make the maps bigger.
The only good times I had on Hawkins as killer was me using Freddy with fake paletts and Enduring/Spirit Fury.
Or me just getting lucky to get relative new players.
And I think I am one of a few to say that but I actually like The Game map while playing killer.
I hate it more when I play survivor and I don't even know why
Thank god I'm not the only one who noticed this.
The double pallet on the Theatre map is an interesting filler though. Each one by itself is weak, but drop both and they are pretty strong.