Creating More Golf Distance | Loft vs Technology
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Creating more golf distance is the name of the game today. Golf manufacturers are putting in countless hours to provide more distance for golfers in their new irons. Lofts on new irons are also becoming stronger as the construction of the irons has changed over time.
But what is creating more golf distance, the loft or technology? In this video, 2nd Swing's Thomas Campbell and Drew Mahowald test out TaylorMade's P7MB and P790 irons and match up the lofts to see if there is a difference in distance.
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Thanks for this test! And for Thomas’s consistent swings. That dude is a machine!
From this data we can say distance is roughly 97% loft + speed and 3% tech (which also provides for launch and forgiveness benefits).
Great job guys! One of the best videos yet! I’ve used the similar example of my Srixon ZX 2 iron vs. my old cavity back 2 iron. Both are 18 deg of loft, but that hollow bodied Srixon launches in a way that it just carries so much farther. Launch angle and ball speed are both up for equivalent strikes.
Glad you enjoyed it! We did too! -Danny
You guys are always straight to the point 👉. Awesome.
Thanks for watching - Thomas
Taking the comparison back in time, I've moved from '84 Hogan Apex PCs to P7MBs. The Hogan 7-iron is 37 degrees vs 35 for the P7MB. When I was fitted, the launch angle of the PC was half a degree lower than the MB. Spin for the MB was 500 higher, vs the nearly 40 year old grooves of the PC. Distance was about the same. The CG of the Hogan is much higher - there's a lot more meat lower on the back of the MB. This also gives the MB much better forgiveness when you're a few grooves low on the face - better than you'd expect.
This video is so important. It shows what you are paying for in game improvement.
Great comparison video guys. Thanks for proving my point that I've tried to make with fitters.. that for me and my swing the ball travels further with a blade than with a game improvement irons.
I love blades and hate coming across people that are completely closed minded on what they offer!
Thanks for the feedback! Sole width is a huge part of the fitting process. It's important to pair the club head and sole design to compliment a players' golf swing. Every swing is unique. The Center of Gravity and offset is significantly different when comparing Traditional vs. Game improvement heads too! -Danny
Pretty spot on. My stock 7i strata that I hit first. Never could get above 98mph ball speed. SimOS I hit 110mph on a ball strike. All strikes over 100mph of ball speed.
The hell of it was. I hit the OS last. So I wasn’t fresh at all and yet it produced the highest ball speed.
I had hit a small bucket of balls at the range before my fitting. So I hit probably close to 100balls or more in an hour.
Excellent test and comparison. Thanks guys.
Thanks for watching! - Thomas
great job, boys! Great test!
Thanks for watching! - Thomas
Your video is perfectly timed for me at this moment. I’m currently in the process of re-fitting my irons to try to figure out my launch. I have new stock T100 irons, my 7 iron swing speed is 95-100mph but my launch is 38 degrees and my spin is 8000+ so 165 is pretty much the end of the world.
I thought it was the AMT s300 shafts being over powered. The x flex shafts actually went even higher. The fitter recommended that I consider different clubs. He said (with caution) that a blade may actually help you get that lower launch.
He did say lessons would help too.
Sounds like you are just delivering way too much loft to the ball. Lower lofted irons would be a bandaid, would probably need lessons to fix.
VCOG matters. Read Ralph Maltby’s info on it
I WISH I could know what golf pros were using as their irons - including the shafts.
I used to have a set of cavity back irons with Dynamic Gold Lite stiff, and got 3 iron distance in air over 230 yds, 7 iron distance over 190 in air. I am using S300 now and about 15 less yards. Is that normal? Tried a friend’s technology clubs with ultralight shafts and got like 195 in air with his 7 iron (Mizuno 923 or something like that) and 220 in air with his 4 iron. So is it in the technology OR in the shafts?
Does the P790 have the speed slots on the 7 iron on down? Maybe that technology contributed to the jump?
At the end of the day - maybe the tech is best in regards to forgiveness. I would have to guess off the toe, the P790 holds its distance better than the P7MB...?
Great test - that was fun!
Hello Chad, I noticed a difference in the dynamic loft between the 35° clubs. The blade was delivered at 23° and the 790 was delivered at 26°. If the 790 had a further 3° removed it would have tightened up the gapping. Maybe 🤷♂️
Yes. Speed slots start at 7 which definitely makes those faces hotter and less prone to mishits. I think the contribution of that tech is exactly what this test showed.
great video! 7 iron has the speed pocket where the 8 iron does not. I wonder if most of the distance diff can be attributed that
One explanation for the jump in distance with the p790 7 iron would be that, that is the iron in which the speed foam starts (at least from my memory of the 2017 version) Can you confirm that the speed foam either diminishes or is not present in 8-Approach wedge in p790?
You failed to mention the thru-slot speed pocket thats in the p790 7 iron that isn’t in the p790 8 iron, the likely cause of that massive ball speed jump
This ^ which is to say “the technology” helped add some distance beyond the primary factors of loft and club speed.
This was a very interesting test. Your analysis focused a lot on matching club-head speed, and then comparing launch, ball-speed, spin and carry distance. However, one of the most critical variables in the test was largely ignored: dynamic loft. Your attempts to even out the clubs and conditions for the test was great, but one of the biggest differences in club performance was due to the dynamic loft delivery of the different clubs. In both match test cases, the delivered or dynamic loft is the biggest reason for the observed results. I find it interesting that Thomas' natural swing with the 6-iron and 7-iron comparison resulted in such a different dynamic loft being delivered to the ball.
I suspect club length and ball position would factor into that dynamic loft difference. I'd love them to 'bite the bullet' and build the clubs to the same length with the same shaft. That would eliminate all the remaining variables other than Thomas's swing variances.
You are 100% correct. The stated static loft has little bearing in the outcome. Dynamic loft and to a lesser extent attack angle determine launch angle. Spin loft determines spin. The lower CG and all the other tech made 0 difference in flight. For a given delivered dynamic loft, you got the same launch angle. The tech did increase the smash factor, which obviously leads to higher balls speeds or equal ball speeds with less effort. But if you don’t hit a center strike, that smash advantage dissipates rapidly and into the pond it goes.
A couple of things strike me firstly just how consistent the numbers are for each club, to get ball speed, smash factor, spin etc in such a tight window is amazing, is that heavily edited or not? Secondly a 25 yard gap is just crazy in my world, okay as a much older player with a slower swing speed mine will always be less but that is at least two clubs for me.
This is a great test and it proves the basic point that these clubs aren't intended for guys with Thomas's speed. The P790 7-iron at 82-84mph will have comparable results to the MB 7-iron swung at 90mph. That's the design intent of the club and they achieved it.
P-790 also has the speed slot starting in the 7-iron, which is why it's so much hotter than the 8-iron. Again, they really work for average-speed players & produce silly results with high-speed players. Average players don't have the swing speed to generate the crazy high peak heights Thomas got.
In the first test with the 35* clubs you had a 3* difference in the dynamic loft at impact between the MB and the 790 and they both went the same distance. So you've delivered the clubs differently with the MB getting less dynamic loft than the 790 got. In the second test with the 31* and 30.5* clubs the difference in dynamic loft was the .5* the clubs have in static loft and then we saw the technology take over and the 790 ball go 10 yards farther with the same delivery conditions. So the second round of testing was a much better example of loft vs technology. Looks like MB vs 790 is almost 2 clubs worth of distance when the number on the sole of the club is the same! One club of distance with loft and one almost one club with technology.
Great observation. I usually believe it is more loft than anything but the P790 and P770 iron tec provides some extra power - Thomas
I always think that to get a fair comparison you should just take 1 shot from each clubs data set that are as close to each other as possible. If the strike position is similar, speed, angle of attack and delivered loft are similar then surely any difference is down to the club.
What would be a good combo set for the P7MB if you felt comfortable hitting the MB's up to let's say 7 iron.
Would P770 or P7MC be better if the loft gapping was matched up properly
Good question, and thanks for watching! P7MC would most likely be a better model to blend with because the performance and feel will most closely resemble the P7MB. The P7MCs are a slightly larger and more forgiving P7MB. What you could do is add a P770 at the top, say at 4-iron for example, if you are looking for another boost of forgiveness there as well.
@@2ndswing thanks guys that helps
It looks like Thomas should be using P790 - carry and total dispersion are much tighter, the difference in stopping power is inexistent (maybe P790 have better stopping power). Gapping is easy to fix 😀 (if not P790, P770)
Legend of P790 continues to grow. I've heard a lot of scratch and plus players game it. But a lot of pros like lower ball flight for windy courses and workability for slick greens.
Was not surprising when comparing p790 7 iron and p7mb 6 iron because the p790 7 iron has tungsten and the p790 8 iron doesn't. It's the reason you have such a large distance gap for the p790s between the 7 and 8 irons.
That is one thing I also noticed. I have the cobra LTDx and I was testing my yardages and all my clubs were roughly 10-15yards apart except my 8-7 iron they were a 20-25yards apart. Also he is hitting a 7 iron the distance my driver goes xD
Sounds like you may need to assess that gapping that is quite the gap! The lofts could be off slightly too - Thomas
Thomas isn't really the target market for the P790 and it does show in the huge gap between the 8i & 7i: 4 degrees difference in loft producing 25 yards difference in carry. That is far too big a gap, you could fit another club in that gap. I am guessing that the reason is the tech is designed to help golfers who do not have Thomas' swing speed. So the design of the club gets a bit more pop off the face for the 7i compared to the 8i. Couple that with a design where as the irons get longer there is more mass on the bottom to keep the launch high and you have a recipe that for the average golfer helps keep the ball in the air a bit longer as the lofts decrease but for Thomas it is the equivalent of him consistently hitting a flyer.
As for the spin rates, there is only a 200-300 rpm difference between the P79- and P7MC on a loft for loft basis. I am not convinced that will make that much difference
Speed slot starting in the 7-iron.
Good point on spin - the spin penalty is really minimal & can be reduced to nothing with a ball change. There's a reason these have sold so well. I never liked the sound/feel of them but they perform.
@@canyonaro you are probably correct that it is the speed slot that makes the difference. I tried the P790s a couple of years ago, they performed really well but were just a bit too big for my eye. The P770s were much better looking at least to my eye and a lot better feeling but by them I was playing the i210s which spin a little more and are very consistent so absolutely no need to change
@@justinstephenson9360 i210s are an all-timer. Many pros still playing them. I'm gaming a combo set of PXG 0311P/T Gen 3 after 20 years of Mizuno blades. Got back a club of distance with just similar feel from the T. The P 5&6 irons have a little more pop to them but I don't need buttery feel from those distances. Cost same as P790s because they cut the price before gen 4 came out. They'll be in the bag quite a while.
Great job guys .. loft jacking but with that 7i hot face how do you have proper gapping ?
Great question Ken. Manufacturers do a great job of designing the Center of Gravity in the clubheads to compliment their loft structures. We can always add or subtract loft on the clubhead to get the desired gapping for players. Thanks for watching! -Danny
Love the videos guys, but the attack angle changed drastically between the first two clubs that the data is apples to oranges. -0.2 vs -4.7 on the extremes, of course launch angle is higher/lower
Looks like the 790s are more consistent 🤔. Is that just extra forgiveness ?
Wouldn't the blade actually be better in the wind even though it spins slightly more, it launches lower staying under the wind. Peak height was 16 ft lower.
Also 17:35 not exactly the body language of a well struck shot. Seemed like Thomas wasn't striking it as well
Before you spend another dollar on clubs, get some lessons from someone that has a good launch monitor. Gcquad or trackman. 38 degree launch is about double the ideal value. Your hands are way behind the ball at impact, with a likely positive attack angle, increasing dynamic loft into lob wedge territory.
Need to add third test using full shaft length as separate test loft tech shaft length at full speed discussion not holding back to equate club speed
Thanks for watching. I intentionally matched the club speed to keep those variables the same. We will find some older fitting heads we can bend to use the exact same shaft and length for a follow up. - Thomas
I could be wrong when I say this, but I believe that in the p790 8 iron there is less tech in that club. I thought that is the crossover club to not have all the tech, I believe they slowly take the tungsten, and air foam out as it progresses towards the PW. Where as the 7 iron has the speed slot/ tungsten/ and foam….
You are exactly correct. There is a transition between the 7 iron and 8 iron. The 7 iron is still pretty hot! - Thomas
Great video, to score, F/B consistency is crucial, my guess is you may have seen what I did, the 790s w hotter face probably had more F/B gap? When I had them I also got the twice per round flyer which I never do with my current i210s, what say you?
What’s F/B consistency mean? Face ball?
@@frankjosephjr3722 Front. Back
Nice test . but did you check the loft and lie on a loft and lie machine. Most new or used clubs aren't as they indicate the loft to be as written on a piece of paper or catalogue?
Lofts/lies were definitely measured prior to filming! Thanks for watching Michael! -Danny
Good stuff
Thanks for watching! - Thomas
TM with something for everyone. The clubs are doing exactly what they’re supposed to do. I prefer the P7MC’s, but I’m a low handicap. The P790 is a great club for their targeted demographic.
The p700 series the top thon line and off set...its really hard at least for me they look very similar but that's just lime the look of all them. I'm a 12.5 hccp. Any suggestions? Please and thank you...your people really do a great job on all the videos.i forgot to add I'm 6'6 285 so for sure have to get fit!....
Is there any reason where I over draw to hook the new P790 all irons compared to straight shot slight fade with P770 . Same shaft . On monitor I'm 5 dag closed at impact to 0 dag to .5 open with 770
Check the offset and lie angles.
That was also a 25 yard gap from the P790 7 to 8 iron…
Hello Clay, I was looking at the dynamic loft delivered on the 35° clubs. It was 26° on the 790 and 23° on the MB. Maybe if the 790 had 12° taken off the loft at impact, it would have carried further. The gap between might have been less?
This is how you can see the tech actually coming into play and making a difference in distance.
“Normal” by loft difference (4.5*) would be 13.5-15 yds + Thomas swung faster by 3 mph so that’s about 4 yards. So the standard factors of loft + speed account for about 17-19 yds out of the 25-yd gap between the P790 7- and 8-iron.
The speed slot starts at 7-iron (but is not in the 8-iron and shorter) making the face markedly hotter and springier to help launch the ball faster and more consistently as the lofts get lower. I think it is fair to attribute this additional difference of 4-5 yards distance to those tech innovations.
I think he just swung the 8 iron differently because he was trying to swing it harder to compensate for loss of speed from the shorter shaft compared to the 7, because of that he delivered way more dynamic loft than you'd expect. I'm sure if he swung it normally and delivered the proper dynamic loft of 2-3 degrees lower his distance gapping would be fine at 15 yards carry
What if a person already hits the ball high? Can the lower CG/higher launch become too much?
Big misconception. If you are launching it too high you are most likely scoping at the ball and not hitting down on it enough. Unless you are flying your 7 iron 170 yards + and the ball going to high it’s most likely your swing fundamentals.
Contrary to popular belief, blades actually have the lowest CG of any iron out there. #1 because all of the mass is located at or below the equator where a cavity is hollowed out and positioned around the perimeter and #2 because a blade typically has a much more shallow club head height which means more of the club head is below the equator of the ball.
What irons do I need to check out if I want to hit the ball lower? I hit the short irons over 140 ft with game improvement clubs. Would like to hit around 100‐110 ft with more spin and stability.
you must not be hitting down on the ball enough if you are hitting the ball that high.
@@dstruong86 VCOG affects launch as well. Just like a driver.
@@dstruong86 -3.5 AoA. I just swing hard.
@@bgoggin88 try a combo set. possible p770 in 6-pw and p790 4-5 irons. or go straight p770
You can’t just gloss over an angle of attack difference of 2.2 degrees and discuss launch and spin. It’s not just about loft…
You're correct I steeper attack angle can generate more spin but the 2.2 won't cover the entire difference in spin - Thomas
So the 3 iron carries 400 yards?
I actually played an older p790 3iron as my utility and at was about 230-240 carry. - Thomas
I’ll take all the help legal technology allowed
Why couldn’t the shafts be made the same length?
Lie angle
Why not make them the exact same loft with the exact same shaft?
These were clubs available at our store and we didn't want to modify shafts. I agree I could had bent the P790 7 iron 0.5* weaker but that's going to equate to 1.5 yards shorter or a little more spin. The golf shafts were pretty close (same weight profile) the focus was on loft and technology and how that influences distance and spin. - Thomas
@@2ndswing but then wouldn’t heaving the clubs at the exact same loft be a TRUE test of technology?
I’ve said all along that these hi-tech irons shouldn’t be numbered the way they are. Instead of calling the P790 an 8 iron , it should be called a “high flight 7 iron”.