Great explainer, that bit about SUVs being "greenest" according to the g/km CO2 figure is wild. I really hope we start seeing more regular hatchbacks and sedans as EV or plug-in hybrids.
I agree. However most people hate sedans and wagons and hatchbacks now for some reason, even though some have more space, more comfort, better aerodynamics and more. I think the government are the ones to blame, because in the UK and other countries the government use gas hogging SUVs to get around... Terrible.
@@josephmarsh8235 Agreed, people in general are very stupid. They look at an SUV and assume “hurr durr, it bigger so it must be better value to haul me and my wife around”. To make it worse all these manufacturers are doing is just stuffing an underpowered engine with a subpar hybrid system to power these things. You can get the same engine setup in a hatchback and it’ll be more fuel efficient and that hatchback might actually be more spacious.
@@josephmarsh8235 its not just that, though certainly part of it, if you get hit by an suv you need to be in one to survive it. i know a lot of people who maintain and run older cars, minis, mkI , MKII golf sort of cars and they put roll cages in them after seeing what suv's did to hatchbacks in a crash
It's just because government want to fine companies to make money. After all, Honda like many other reliable brands such as Lexus and Toyota know that rushing into electric is wrong unlike most environmentalists.
Rory is completely right about the Honda E, I ordered my March 22 one back in September and paid £33,000, now for the same model/spec you are looking at £39000 - outrageous price, but it is best in class for handling/ London commuting
@@danielmoore7976 I seriously wouldn't buy one of it was £8999 new Most horrendous looking car on planet 33k omg My mates just bought a used mercedes E class convertible For 23k What a sexy looking machine that is and drives like a dream And he'd had have 10k in his pocket lol
@@boyasaka he'd not likely have £10k in his pocket because he likely would not have the extra £10k to spend on a car. People spend what they want. My car budget is £99k for new or second hand but depreciation has to be less than £5k per year no matter what the purchase price is.
What I mainly gathered is that there are about to be a shot load of box SUVs on the road as Hybrids because they score easier in the Co2 emissions test. That’s mad.
Honda was THE innovator of fuel and emission efficiency. They did things with engines that defined the notion and innovated like few others to bring great products and clever engineering to the industry. They will get there again, but they do have to play catch-up in many ways. It's like they need a 'great awakening' like what Nissan is going through now. Also, why is it that Kia was the first company to innovate putting a camera-view of a car's blind spot in the dashboard whenever the driver put on the turn signal? That is brilliant and the kind of outside-the-box thinking and ingenuity Honda needs to emulate. Having said that, it is still a great company.
I had a gen one Insight big compression ratio, 26 to 1 air to fuel on cruise, electric motor to help accelerate and slow down, aerodynamics best in class and alloy body shell brilliant to say the least! Where has that all gone?
Seems odd that Honda couldn't see this coming or are they not as concerned about the European / UK market. As a Honda owner for the last 7 years their product is excellent to the point that it's not worth changing until the used car market prices settle down and the electric infrastructure improves
My only Honda ever is a ‘04 Element I bought when it had maybe 80,000 miles on it. I turned 200,000 miles a few weeks ago. I had the valves adjusted and new seals recently. Gas mileage isn’t very good, but the 2.4 DOC V-tech engine is a masterpiece. Lots of torque in higher revs. I love the little 4wd SUV with removable rear seats.
honda and the other Japanese manufacturers bet big on hydrogen, and it didn't work out. Now they have to play catch up, and to develop a proper car start to finish and make it delivarable, takes years.
I don't think they give much of a shit about Europe to be honest. A good article on Autocar about it a couple of years ago. It's just so difficult selling cars here compared to the US and in Asia.
@@TheSpoovy and don't forget the mad EU forced Honda down the diesel track which they had to borrow at first and then perfect their own over 10 YEARS only to have the goalposts moved again by the beurocrats. This perfect example how social engineering always goes wrong
This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. Focusing solely on tailpipe emissions ignores pollution from mining battery components in third world countries. I'm surprised Honda didn't pull out of the European market.
Absolutely, the EU can’t be stupid enough to think that emissions of building cars don’t exist. Taking that into account there is no chance in hell that a new Toyota Aygo X 1.0 is more environmentally damaging than a £100k plug in hybrid Range Rover, they know that but won’t do anything at all to address it, but they’ve somehow gotta make cars unaffordable to the majority of people.
Very interesting stuff. Honestly my main takeaway here is that these rules need some work - I cannot believe that, in real world usage, a hybrid city car is producing more C02 than a plug-in hybrid SUV. I understand WHY they are currently judged to be so, but that's based on usage stats and scenarios that are so idealised as to be fictional.
It’s very VERY deliberate. It’s all about making cars too expensive to working class people, it forces manufacturers to stop making cheaper models, so that to meet emissions targets all that are left on the market are for most people totally unaffordable plug in hybrid SUVs.
It's just Honda being real about the real world regulations and not the bullS of the EU and UKI.... shame they might drop out of the market. We don't get the Accord in EU anymore and it's an awesome car.
@@esm7708 I agree, they should be. Have a look for the Volvo report on how long they thought it's take to break even with a BEV vs an identical chassis ICE equivalent. "Volvo carbon footprint report" Interesting reading, but of course the 90k miles to break even with their example can be brought down depending on Country/ how green the energy generation is etc
@@stuartburns8657 there are more recent iterations of that report which are bringing the break even number ever lower. I've yet to read a report where battery second life is considered properly. However a fair assumption is ICE is as good as it can be but EV is still improving.
drastic problems require drastic solutions. In hindsight, this was inevitable, and legacy car companies have had decades to prepare. The fact that Tesla predicted this and got in before anyone either shows fantastic ability from Tesla, or highlights serious flaws in legacy auto
@@stevekyte8525 it wont hurt big corporations, it will hurt our fucking wallet when cars are expensive as fucking shit cuz "rules". Im sorry I dont have 60k euros on demand and I need to import a used car but the god damn EU rules will tax the shit out of me. Do you people live in a fairy tale ?
Great explanation of the Honda situation. One question though that I think this draws out - how environmentally friendly are Teslas if they are effectively being used to absorb the emissions of other brands?
If you counted the eco disaster created by mining and producing the batteries, as well as the power plant emissions used to charge the batteries, I believe that Tesla is FAR dirtier than the Green Team would admit.
The absurdity of PHEVs is that they measure a distance of only around 100 km. They use the (falsely) advertised 60-70 km of electric range... and the rest 30-40 km are on fuel. And there you go - 65 grams total. Most PHEV owners never plug in their vehicles...
Many owners do plug in, but here in the UK, the benefit in kind tax advantage was so great, that many company drivers acquired an Outlander PHEV or similar, just for the tax saving, company paying the fuel, so why mess about plugging in.
I have a PHEV that I plug in every night. Very simple although it does require a little bit of discipline - like remembering to brush your teeth. The only time I buy gas is when I am on a road trip.
@@richardcoughlin8931 You're doing the right thing... or in other words "using the product as intended". PHEVs are a great transition vehicle - no one has gone back to gas after owning one. It's perfect if you travel short distances every day and have somewhere to plug it in for the night. They are a bit thirsty and complicated machines combining the worst of both technologies. Unfortunately many people buy them for the intensives or as company vehicles and just drive them as usual. And automakers produce them because they don't have to change (or add) much to the production line and it gives them the same benefits (credits) as a pure EV... This helps them cheat on emissions regulations.
The EU need to test REAL hybrid emissions Then nail the manufacturers with massive fines. As this will force manufacturers to really produce better cars. More proper hybrids & more EV's. Not just fake C02 emissions.
Excellent resume. Shows how disingenuous the EU/UK emissions regs are. Honda are an engineering-led manufacturer and have got some brilliant, green tech that actually works in the real world. But we all know that the EU system (and laughably, the UK's too) is gamed for the benefit of the Dieselgate Germans. Honda should start making more 350bhp, 3L Diesel SUVs... The modest, reliable, affordable Japanese were explicitly targeted by the protectionist EU to protect the French and promote the German auto industries.
I have the same vibe at the post WWII era when Japanese cars became light years ahead of everything else. Of course, everyone except UK banned them from import because European auto industries would fall apart how behind they were to the Japanese.
Would be interesting to know if the total Co2 emissions for manufacturing and cars were taken into account if the ratings for these companies would stay the same. Also if lifespan of the vehicles and maintenance were taken into account would these standards still make sense. Will be interesting to see if Ev's make up 50% of the market how sustainable they will be at scale given infrastructure bloat and battery tech.
i saw an honest australien government ad which had carbon credits capture and storage scheme, guess some companies made deals amongst each other similar to that system offsetting emissions pollution.
personally i'd prefer for it to be a weighted regulation over the predicted lifetime of the vehicle including production but that won't happen rather than the current greenwashing
Isn't this Teslas core (or even sole) profit source, selling green credits? Will be interesting how profitable it is once the main manufacturers don't need that any more.
It's kinda funny to think that last year there are more new Porches driving around than Hondas. So there is at least 68346 Porches rolling around then, neat
Two things. One - plug in hybrids are absolutely better than straight hybrids. I’ve owned an Outlander PHEV since 2014 and it uses way less petrol per km than my daughter’s Prius for my use case - and the Prius is a much smaller vehicle. Two - I think it’s a shortcoming in the regulation that allows car makers to game the system by sharing EV credits. It circumvents the end goal of lower emissions. Honda (and others)had years to plan for these emission standards and failed to do so and they should be fined for their lack of due diligence.
Uff, I didn't know Honda had such big problems in Europe. I was kinda planning to maybe buy a new Civic in 1-2 years but now I'm concerned they won't even be around for that long in Europe...
I love my 8th Gen Dirty Diesel Civic but it's getting old (2007). I have been hanging on (because it's chuffing reliable) hoping for Honda to get their EV game together. But they haven't 😢 Check out the Electric Viking to see how bad Honda now are
I think I heard somewhere that they or somewhere else are planning to crack down on hybrids because there is a problem with businesses buying hybrids for their staff to drive except the staff were treating them like ICE vehicles because the business paid their fuel bill but not their electricity bill. Hopefully someone figures out a way to tap into the charging data to cover refuel costs at home, if there isn’t someone doing that already, to combat that issue as well. But yeah, I think hybrids are also going to increasingly find themselves under the microscope as people becoming more familiar with how they do and don’t work or rather if they were designed with a big enough battery or not. Thanks for the update, overview, great to hear what’s going on.
Great work. I find myself a bit perplexed about how easily the rules can be circumvented so easily by 'pooling' in this case, or why Tesla would actively help a maker that is obviously not really caring about reducing co2 emissions. Does it work the other way around, that Tesla would need to start paying for their vehicles co2? It's all well and fine saying a Tesla has no co2 emissions at the *exhaust* , but what amount of co2 is produced making the electricity to charge one at a Supercharger, or other charging facility? Sure people can do home charging from solar panels and battery, but there seems to be a disconnect to just call them a car with no co2 emissions. That's without even taking into account the rather large energy requirements involved in battery production, mining, and the issues around disposal.
It blows me away that Honda is SO backwards about embracing EV's since their motorcycle and small motor sections were so forward in removing 2stroke for 4 stroke engines due to environmental concerns.
I don't need a large car, but there doesn't appear to be much in the way of small PHEVs. Is there something about PHEVs that means they have to be large?
Depends on what you consider small: the VW Group offers (offered, not available at the moment because of the war in Ukraine) compact PHEV-Hatchbacks (Golf, A3, Octavia, Leon). There are als compact Hatchbacks from Stellantis, the Vauxhall/Opel Astra for example is available as a PHEV. But from an economical perspective it doesn’t really make sense to offer a VW Polo-sized (subcompact?) PHEV because the technology is too expensive for this segment and fully electric is just the better option for most customers because of the way these cars are used more for shorter journeys. In addition to that, for some weird reasons People seem to love Van-ish vehicles when they have a flat bonnet and called „Crossovers“, and because of that, most manufacturers start electrifying and or hybridization in this segment.
They really should be building on the Honda e popularity, put a bigger battery in it and lower the cost and bring out the electric coupe that they teased everyone with 👍
This is a whole different story in the Asian Market. Although Plug-in hybrids do run in the wild on the northeast asia, the market share is very tiny. And I do believe that simply going Plug-in Hybrid isn't the way to go to go green because remember that 2/3rds of electricity in the globe is still powered by fossil fuels and that fraction is in fact larger on Asian countries.
Well they are taxed on price, and for petrol cars priced on usage through fuel duty which seems pretty fair as inefficient cars consume more fuel and thus more tax is levied.
What is the 'whole life' CO2 foot-print of these EV's etc, ie manufacturing cost, material costs and long term disposal of (presumably quite toxic) battery packs etc, in direct comparison to internal combustion vehicles? All this system seems to focus on is CO2 output and MPG of the vehicles. Rather simplistic to look at EV and say 'green and good for the environment' but it really is not that clear cut is it?
Good report Rory.We need a better system,certainly no even playing field. As an owner of a 2009 Accord I know they still make good cars,but have largely failed to innovate since the GFC.Combined with marketing strategies("Best price promise"=worst),that is why they are losing market share and need to play catch up in a hurry, Tesla to the rescue,a lifebuoy,but will Honda stay afloat?
I guess Honda would have been fined due to the volume of CRVs that are sold elsewhere. Although the Jazz is the most popular in the UK this is not the case for other markets.
FYI, you can spec a BMW 3 series from 39.000 € up to 132.000€. (M3) Its almost 100.000 € extra for a car that looks 95% the same. This would make for a good video.
Honda like Toyota and Lexus are doing the right thing in not making electric cars because they know it's far too early and now is not the time. Also Japanese car brands are known for reliability and that's why the brand Honda just needed Tesla's help. I know Honda is brilliant. Also, another problem is too many government set targets which are worthless, there should be lower CO2 per km for SUVs and fairer CO2 targets for sedans and hatchbacks which are way better for the environment.
@@PaulMansfield Sure they do but the boss of BMW has declared that they wont be concentrating only on EVs many other parts of the world are nowhere near ready for EVs and to some extent we aren't either.
Honda is making absolutely lovely efficient cars and yet Europe bashes them. This is why the US will always be richer than Europe. If we bough less 1 series diesels and more civics... I don't think the system is fair but plug in hybrids do clean the air of our cities since most of the commuting is basically done with electricity and the people that I know who have them, are actually using them as their green purpose suggests. On the other hand, for those saying that the Honda E is expensive, how many households do you whose 2 cars must absolutely fill the same role? Why would a family with a range rover and 5 series haven chosen better or paid more fair prices for their use case than a family that had the range rover and needed something modern, fun and VERY good looking just for the school run, grocery shopping or local client visiting?
Maybe I'm basic AF but the thumbnail also explained part of Honda's problem which wasn't talked about in the video The Civic Type R. This probably hurts the brand's average because that is only a civic in name with a beastly turbo four aimed at fun not fuel economy. I wonder what their average numbers are without the Type R.
im sure they dont need to partner with anyone since they can build an elecric car all by themselves. Problem is - how many buyers would a new s2000 get? Obviously not enough to make it justifieable. Honda needs a star seller car that could finance the side projects like a new s2000.
Great video on the issue of CO2. Like it was discused before brands are killing off sedans and station wagons in favour of SUVs which are like a brick compared to sedans and station wagons and use a lot more fuel and then people moan abouy it and how much fuel does it use! Well hello! It doesn't take Einstein to figure that out. And more fuel means more CO2 and most of SUVs don't have the same space as station wagons and sedans. They look huge on the outside and you sit higher and you get a false feeling of beeing safer because of that and so on....
I’m not surprised, Honda now go whole years without releasing a model. Japanese manufacturers have gone from being innovation leaders to thoroughly behind American, S. Korean and even European manufacturers
Hang on a minute, are we supposed to be saving the World? Or just London, the UK or Europe? If we are talking about pollution we HAVE to take into account the environmental cost of EV battery production and disposal which changes things somewhat.
By all means, take it ALL into account. For example an old occasionally used diesel is a lot “cleaner” than its newly made EV replacement transported half way round the world.
@@kenbatchelor8284 but if people are buying new cars electric is the future. The minerals are a major concern, yes, but there are mitigations and solutions. LFP batteries for a start, and perhaps sodium ion, aluminium ion and other technologies. EVs already have many advantages over ICE cars and we need the infrastructure in place now to make sure they’re ready for full adoption as the technology matures.
Only bureaucracies can make such messes and the EU makes the biggest messes of all; great video again. Elon has brilliantly identified regulatory arbitrage as a cash-cow which is why he's heading out of Tesla. Tesla hasn't got a prayer of making sustainable profits to meet its valuation without these windfalls.
I am not sure about profits, but Tesla is definitely on the right track towards an environmentally sustainable future. For example, all that Lithium is currently minded using only Electric Diggers and Carried across continents on Electric Trucks, Trains and Electric Cargo Ships. And these vehicles and cars are charged using "Electricity", which we all know has zero emissions.
Q1 2022 $18.8 billion revenue (higher than Toyota), and industry leading automotive gross margin of 32.9% - regulatory credits only $679 million. “The more we see out of Tesla, the more we are concerned about the rest of the industry’s ability to play catch-up,” Morgan Stanley.
Great vid which exposes the stupidity of the system. Why don't they also look at the energy used in the production process, then SUV's and battery powered cars won't look so good.
I really think Honda deserve this , I am a Honda fan boy but I have to admit that they deserve it because in past 20 years there product line is not that well caliberated and not that well designed for market they are focusing they always came late to the party and so late that ,that is the last few years of that old technology and also sometimes back they use to be a technological masterpiece manufacturing company where every is distinct with Honda dna but this is lacking in their newer products and even the product pricing is exuberant and don’t come in affordable category and I really feel disappointed by honda
Plenty of PHEV drivers plug in and drive exclusively in EV. The problem is how insanely inefficient the ICE when it turns on. Most PHEV manufacturer don't optimize the engine for efficiency since they use a regular engine off the shelf. A Prius type engine + PHEV would be incredibly efficient.
You would have hoped that by now Honda and the others would have focused more on the PhEV's and range extended electric car market. Or even better pure EV's but you know...
Honda decided to quit manufacturing cars in the UK because they simply were not selling well enough here. If they'd made the cars enough people wanted to buy, then they'd still be here. They simply chose to move their UK production base nearer to the market where they knew they could sell the cars it produced. Both Kia and Hyundai each sold more cars every year in the UK than did Honda. Make the cars people want to buy, and they'll buy 'em. It's that simple....
Personal transportation pods are the future cars. I just dont see myself driving an ev for fun, when it can do it itself. I'd imagine half of the manufacturers of today won't exist in the next 50 years as the industry consolidates. EVs will be much of muchness so differentiating the product will be much more difficult
How is it expectable to not meet the requirements and then just pool with another manufacturer to avoid the penalty, I really don’t believe this should be allowed to happen.
It's interesting how brands that were once innovators get stuck in their ways and fail to move with the times. Toyota made its Prius the most successful hybrid, but have failed to make a good BEV. Even Nissan's Leaf is resting on its laurels with only incremental upgrades. No idea what Honda and Mazda are thinking. They made some of the best petrol engines ever, but going all in on BEVs seems to be beyond them.
![Tesla Taxi FULL HEALTH CHECK: Is The Battery RUINED After 430,000 Miles? [Episode 4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/doAcNVuTnXU/mqdefault.jpg)
Great explainer, that bit about SUVs being "greenest" according to the g/km CO2 figure is wild. I really hope we start seeing more regular hatchbacks and sedans as EV or plug-in hybrids.
I agree. However most people hate sedans and wagons and hatchbacks now for some reason, even though some have more space, more comfort, better aerodynamics and more. I think the government are the ones to blame, because in the UK and other countries the government use gas hogging SUVs to get around... Terrible.
@@josephmarsh8235 Agreed, people in general are very stupid. They look at an SUV and assume “hurr durr, it bigger so it must be better value to haul me and my wife around”. To make it worse all these manufacturers are doing is just stuffing an underpowered engine with a subpar hybrid system to power these things. You can get the same engine setup in a hatchback and it’ll be more fuel efficient and that hatchback might actually be more spacious.
@@BoldBrandFlakes exactly
@@BoldBrandFlakes you're absolutely right 👍! All the research needs to be pressured on people who make bad choices.
@@josephmarsh8235 its not just that, though certainly part of it, if you get hit by an suv you need to be in one to survive it. i know a lot of people who maintain and run older cars, minis, mkI , MKII golf sort of cars and they put roll cages in them after seeing what suv's did to hatchbacks in a crash
Pretending that a nassive SUV is more environment-friendly than a small hybrid hatchback is absolutely INSANE.
As a Honda fan it saddens me not to see them doing well here, they make good products!
It's just because government want to fine companies to make money. After all, Honda like many other reliable brands such as Lexus and Toyota know that rushing into electric is wrong unlike most environmentalists.
Although their f1 engines only worked for 1 year
@@alexanderjames1030 A Honda powered car won last years F1 drivers championship, I don't know what your on about.
@@alexanderjames1030 That F1 engine isn't sold in consumer cars....
CBR fireblade
Rory is completely right about the Honda E, I ordered my March 22 one back in September and paid £33,000, now for the same model/spec you are looking at £39000 - outrageous price, but it is best in class for handling/ London commuting
Plus it looks cool as hell. In my opinion coolest looking mini since the OG Mini.
You spend 33k on that
O my days
@@boyasaka That was exactly what I thought when I read the comment 😂 It's times like this i'm glad I did my bike test.
@@danielmoore7976 I seriously wouldn't buy one of it was £8999 new
Most horrendous looking car on planet
33k omg
My mates just bought a used mercedes E class convertible
For 23k
What a sexy looking machine that is and drives like a dream
And he'd had have 10k in his pocket lol
@@boyasaka he'd not likely have £10k in his pocket because he likely would not have the extra £10k to spend on a car. People spend what they want. My car budget is £99k for new or second hand but depreciation has to be less than £5k per year no matter what the purchase price is.
To the point - data backed - perfect.
Keep it up Rory and team. Go well.
Rory never disappoints
What I mainly gathered is that there are about to be a shot load of box SUVs on the road as Hybrids because they score easier in the Co2 emissions test. That’s mad.
Honda was THE innovator of fuel and emission efficiency. They did things with engines that defined the notion and innovated like few others to bring great products and clever engineering to the industry. They will get there again, but they do have to play catch-up in many ways. It's like they need a 'great awakening' like what Nissan is going through now. Also, why is it that Kia was the first company to innovate putting a camera-view of a car's blind spot in the dashboard whenever the driver put on the turn signal? That is brilliant and the kind of outside-the-box thinking and ingenuity Honda needs to emulate. Having said that, it is still a great company.
I had a gen 1 Insight awesome vehicle and so far ahead of everybody, they just don't care about the planet anymore
The kia wasnt. A couple of genisis and other did it beforehand as far as I know.
I had a gen one Insight big compression ratio, 26 to 1 air to fuel on cruise, electric motor to help accelerate and slow down, aerodynamics best in class and alloy body shell brilliant to say the least! Where has that all gone?
@@peterszczesiak6025 No company really cares about the environment, they just want money
This civic had a camera on the right blind spot in 2016.
Seems odd that Honda couldn't see this coming or are they not as concerned about the European / UK market. As a Honda owner for the last 7 years their product is excellent to the point that it's not worth changing until the used car market prices settle down and the electric infrastructure improves
My only Honda ever is a ‘04 Element I bought when it had maybe 80,000 miles on it. I turned 200,000 miles a few weeks ago. I had the valves adjusted and new seals recently. Gas mileage isn’t very good, but the 2.4 DOC V-tech engine is a masterpiece. Lots of torque in higher revs. I love the little 4wd SUV with removable rear seats.
honda and the other Japanese manufacturers bet big on hydrogen, and it didn't work out. Now they have to play catch up, and to develop a proper car start to finish and make it delivarable, takes years.
i company who needs new management.
I don't think they give much of a shit about Europe to be honest. A good article on Autocar about it a couple of years ago. It's just so difficult selling cars here compared to the US and in Asia.
@@TheSpoovy and don't forget the mad EU forced Honda down the diesel track which they had to borrow at first and then perfect their own over 10 YEARS only to have the goalposts moved again by the beurocrats. This perfect example how social engineering always goes wrong
This is another example of the law of unintended consequences. Focusing solely on tailpipe emissions ignores pollution from mining battery components in third world countries. I'm surprised Honda didn't pull out of the European market.
Because we shouldn't pursue clean air, mining has been done and is continue for centuries. Suddenly mining is bad but CO2 from tailpipes are not.
Absolutely, the EU can’t be stupid enough to think that emissions of building cars don’t exist. Taking that into account there is no chance in hell that a new Toyota Aygo X 1.0 is more environmentally damaging than a £100k plug in hybrid Range Rover, they know that but won’t do anything at all to address it, but they’ve somehow gotta make cars unaffordable to the majority of people.
Very interesting stuff. Honestly my main takeaway here is that these rules need some work - I cannot believe that, in real world usage, a hybrid city car is producing more C02 than a plug-in hybrid SUV. I understand WHY they are currently judged to be so, but that's based on usage stats and scenarios that are so idealised as to be fictional.
It’s very VERY deliberate. It’s all about making cars too expensive to working class people, it forces manufacturers to stop making cheaper models, so that to meet emissions targets all that are left on the market are for most people totally unaffordable plug in hybrid SUVs.
Yo fam, if top gear needs a revival, it definitely needs you back. But please, someone with the same ability to entertain the way you do.
Chris, freddie and Rory would be a fantastic trio. As much as I like Paddy, I just don't really enjoy him on top gear as much as the other 3
It's just Honda being real about the real world regulations and not the bullS of the EU and UKI.... shame they might drop out of the market. We don't get the Accord in EU anymore and it's an awesome car.
Honda is on the verge of shutting down here in Australia because of their constant missteps and failures in pricing and dealer support.
A far cry from what they used to be. Truly sad as I don’t believe they make bad cars.
Rory, one sentence. We need you back on mainstream TV.
Why isn't the co2 it takes to mine the battery materials and manufacture EV's taken into account?
because EVs make no sense then, and the quwstion is polittically not correct
@@artureff3046 😄😄😄😄👍
Why isn’t the CO2 for the extraction, processing and transportation of petrol included in ICE/Hybrid figures as well as manufacturing costs?
@@esm7708 I agree, they should be.
Have a look for the Volvo report on how long they thought it's take to break even with a BEV vs an identical chassis ICE equivalent.
"Volvo carbon footprint report"
Interesting reading, but of course the 90k miles to break even with their example can be brought down depending on Country/ how green the energy generation is etc
@@stuartburns8657 there are more recent iterations of that report which are bringing the break even number ever lower. I've yet to read a report where battery second life is considered properly.
However a fair assumption is ICE is as good as it can be but EV is still improving.
A mate of mine has a new Type R.
It's so much fun to drive.
Europe is going crazy with emissions rules. You cannot replace petrol power overnight.
The transition needs to be mandated and Europe is taking the right approach. Inertia by big corporations is unacceptable
You can and it will happen.... the technology exists for atleast a decade now. No one starts working until a "sword" is hung over their head.
drastic problems require drastic solutions. In hindsight, this was inevitable, and legacy car companies have had decades to prepare. The fact that Tesla predicted this and got in before anyone either shows fantastic ability from Tesla, or highlights serious flaws in legacy auto
@@stevekyte8525 it wont hurt big corporations, it will hurt our fucking wallet when cars are expensive as fucking shit cuz "rules". Im sorry I dont have 60k euros on demand and I need to import a used car but the god damn EU rules will tax the shit out of me. Do you people live in a fairy tale ?
Why not ? You think these manufacturer changes would have come into place if the regulators didn’t mandate it ?
Great explanation of the Honda situation. One question though that I think this draws out - how environmentally friendly are Teslas if they are effectively being used to absorb the emissions of other brands?
If you counted the eco disaster created by mining and producing the batteries, as well as the power plant emissions used to charge the batteries, I believe that Tesla is FAR dirtier than the Green Team would admit.
Plus how easy it is to circumvent the regulations. Instead of the penalties landing in Govt. pocket they land at Tesla. How crazy is this !
@@umerchan tbh id rather have tesla get the profits then the gov, theyll waste it in no time
Waiting for that new Cr-V - Honda needs to price it right to sell a lot of them in order to avoid this problem. Hope with 3 rows as rumor has it.
The absurdity of PHEVs is that they measure a distance of only around 100 km. They use the (falsely) advertised 60-70 km of electric range... and the rest 30-40 km are on fuel. And there you go - 65 grams total. Most PHEV owners never plug in their vehicles...
Wife drove a PHEV. Probably spent $20 on gas the whole time. Plugged in every night. 32 miles commute. No gas.
Many owners do plug in, but here in the UK, the benefit in kind tax advantage was so great, that many company drivers acquired an Outlander PHEV or similar, just for the tax saving, company paying the fuel, so why mess about plugging in.
@@johndoyle4723 That too... unfortunately.
I have a PHEV that I plug in every night. Very simple although it does require a little bit of discipline - like remembering to brush your teeth. The only time I buy gas is when I am on a road trip.
@@richardcoughlin8931 You're doing the right thing... or in other words "using the product as intended". PHEVs are a great transition vehicle - no one has gone back to gas after owning one. It's perfect if you travel short distances every day and have somewhere to plug it in for the night. They are a bit thirsty and complicated machines combining the worst of both technologies.
Unfortunately many people buy them for the intensives or as company vehicles and just drive them as usual. And automakers produce them because they don't have to change (or add) much to the production line and it gives them the same benefits (credits) as a pure EV... This helps them cheat on emissions regulations.
The EU need to test REAL hybrid emissions Then nail the manufacturers with massive fines.
As this will force manufacturers to really produce better cars. More proper hybrids & more EV's. Not just fake C02 emissions.
Excellent resume. Shows how disingenuous the EU/UK emissions regs are. Honda are an engineering-led manufacturer and have got some brilliant, green tech that actually works in the real world. But we all know that the EU system (and laughably, the UK's too) is gamed for the benefit of the Dieselgate Germans. Honda should start making more 350bhp, 3L Diesel SUVs... The modest, reliable, affordable Japanese were explicitly targeted by the protectionist EU to protect the French and promote the German auto industries.
I have the same vibe at the post WWII era when Japanese cars became light years ahead of everything else. Of course, everyone except UK banned them from import because European auto industries would fall apart how behind they were to the Japanese.
Would be interesting to know if the total Co2 emissions for manufacturing and cars were taken into account if the ratings for these companies would stay the same. Also if lifespan of the vehicles and maintenance were taken into account would these standards still make sense. Will be interesting to see if Ev's make up 50% of the market how sustainable they will be at scale given infrastructure bloat and battery tech.
Nice selection for the closing sound track . Dope
i saw an honest australien government ad which had carbon credits capture and storage scheme, guess some companies made deals amongst each other similar to that system offsetting emissions pollution.
Not even a horse will comply with those co2 requirements
Yes, they're ridiculous requirements.
Rory your work is fine. Finest.from kenya I love your job
In 2021, Tesla sold US $ 1.46 billion in regulatory credits to various manufacturers including Honda.
Yes, you can make that sound a lot. But that's a mere 2.7% of the $53.82 billion in total 2021 revenue.
@@colinnich tesla didn't make 53 billion in revenue 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 that's its market cap I'd assume
@@Paul-hu7xx nope , tesla market cap is 700b+
Cheers Rory for another interesting video but amazes me how a big car maker like Honda couldn't meet the targets 🤔
small market
fun new drinking game..... take a shot everytime Rory says "according to JATO". I was hammered half way through this video, according to JATO
Two of my favorite car brands working together...
Best news I've heard so far this week. 😎
Wow this guy is good!! Thanks for this summay.
Very informative. Was not aware of most of it
Great informative video.
Lately driving a CR-Z and it feels so odd to see Honda 22th
Hi rory! BE IN EVERY AUTOTRADER VIDEO PLEASE!!! Thank youuu
personally i'd prefer for it to be a weighted regulation over the predicted lifetime of the vehicle including production but that won't happen rather than the current greenwashing
i really like your auto news delivery
Isn't this Teslas core (or even sole) profit source, selling green credits? Will be interesting how profitable it is once the main manufacturers don't need that any more.
What r u talking about this is only 3% of teslas complete revenue
Not even close to their primary source. They are still profitable without them.
Isn't the Honda Clarity a plug in hybrid?
Not sure it's sold in the EU
Honda's like "this doesn't fit out model cycle/schedule, we'll take the hit"
It's kinda funny to think that last year there are more new Porches driving around than Hondas.
So there is at least 68346 Porches rolling around then, neat
Two things. One - plug in hybrids are absolutely better than straight hybrids. I’ve owned an Outlander PHEV since 2014 and it uses way less petrol per km than my daughter’s Prius for my use case - and the Prius is a much smaller vehicle. Two - I think it’s a shortcoming in the regulation that allows car makers to game the system by sharing EV credits. It circumvents the end goal of lower emissions. Honda (and others)had years to plan for these emission standards and failed to do so and they should be fined for their lack of due diligence.
Uff, I didn't know Honda had such big problems in Europe.
I was kinda planning to maybe buy a new Civic in 1-2 years but now I'm concerned they won't even be around for that long in Europe...
Same :(
I love my 8th Gen Dirty Diesel Civic but it's getting old (2007).
I have been hanging on (because it's chuffing reliable) hoping for Honda to get their EV game together.
But they haven't 😢
Check out the Electric Viking to see how bad Honda now are
I'm cracking up over his bakersfield shirt
I think I heard somewhere that they or somewhere else are planning to crack down on hybrids because there is a problem with businesses buying hybrids for their staff to drive except the staff were treating them like ICE vehicles because the business paid their fuel bill but not their electricity bill.
Hopefully someone figures out a way to tap into the charging data to cover refuel costs at home, if there isn’t someone doing that already, to combat that issue as well. But yeah, I think hybrids are also going to increasingly find themselves under the microscope as people becoming more familiar with how they do and don’t work or rather if they were designed with a big enough battery or not.
Thanks for the update, overview, great to hear what’s going on.
Great work. I find myself a bit perplexed about how easily the rules can be circumvented so easily by 'pooling' in this case, or why Tesla would actively help a maker that is obviously not really caring about reducing co2 emissions.
Does it work the other way around, that Tesla would need to start paying for their vehicles co2? It's all well and fine saying a Tesla has no co2 emissions at the *exhaust* , but what amount of co2 is produced making the electricity to charge one at a Supercharger, or other charging facility?
Sure people can do home charging from solar panels and battery, but there seems to be a disconnect to just call them a car with no co2 emissions.
That's without even taking into account the rather large energy requirements involved in battery production, mining, and the issues around disposal.
EVs are still more eco friendly than ICE cars even when they are run on electricity produced by coal.
So stop crying boomer.
@@neeljavia2965 Cool, do you have some detailed study that supports that?
@@benwu7980 there is loads of info out there on this subject
It blows me away that Honda is SO backwards about embracing EV's since their motorcycle and small motor sections were so forward in removing 2stroke for 4 stroke engines due to environmental concerns.
I don't need a large car, but there doesn't appear to be much in the way of small PHEVs. Is there something about PHEVs that means they have to be large?
Depends on what you consider small: the VW Group offers (offered, not available at the moment because of the war in Ukraine) compact PHEV-Hatchbacks (Golf, A3, Octavia, Leon). There are als compact Hatchbacks from Stellantis, the Vauxhall/Opel Astra for example is available as a PHEV.
But from an economical perspective it doesn’t really make sense to offer a VW Polo-sized (subcompact?) PHEV because the technology is too expensive for this segment and fully electric is just the better option for most customers because of the way these cars are used more for shorter journeys.
In addition to that, for some weird reasons People seem to love Van-ish vehicles when they have a flat bonnet and called „Crossovers“, and because of that, most manufacturers start electrifying and or hybridization in this segment.
They really should be building on the Honda e popularity, put a bigger battery in it and lower the cost and bring out the electric coupe that they teased everyone with 👍
so it doesn't matter how heavy a car is anymore.. ridiculous.. until the next big health issue - brake dust.. Great explanation btw Rory..
This is a whole different story in the Asian Market. Although Plug-in hybrids do run in the wild on the northeast asia, the market share is very tiny. And I do believe that simply going Plug-in Hybrid isn't the way to go to go green because remember that 2/3rds of electricity in the globe is still powered by fossil fuels and that fraction is in fact larger on Asian countries.
Very good Rory, Thank You.
cars should be taxed by tonnage, not just output. a sub tonne Wuling generates negligable emissions compared to a plug in range rover.
Well they are taxed on price, and for petrol cars priced on usage through fuel duty which seems pretty fair as inefficient cars consume more fuel and thus more tax is levied.
Helping the environment is a metaphor for government collecting taxes, just nobody realizes it.
What is the 'whole life' CO2 foot-print of these EV's etc, ie manufacturing cost, material costs and long term disposal of (presumably quite toxic) battery packs etc, in direct comparison to internal combustion vehicles? All this system seems to focus on is CO2 output and MPG of the vehicles. Rather simplistic to look at EV and say 'green and good for the environment' but it really is not that clear cut is it?
Good report Rory.We need a better system,certainly no even playing field. As an owner of a 2009 Accord I know they still make good cars,but have largely failed to innovate since the GFC.Combined with marketing strategies("Best price promise"=worst),that is why they are losing market share and need to play catch up in a hurry, Tesla to the rescue,a lifebuoy,but will Honda stay afloat?
I guess Honda would have been fined due to the volume of CRVs that are sold elsewhere. Although the Jazz is the most popular in the UK this is not the case for other markets.
FYI, you can spec a BMW 3 series from 39.000 € up to 132.000€. (M3)
Its almost 100.000 € extra for a car that looks 95% the same.
This would make for a good video.
Guys we must save the manuals
Honda like Toyota and Lexus are doing the right thing in not making electric cars because they know it's far too early and now is not the time. Also Japanese car brands are known for reliability and that's why the brand Honda just needed Tesla's help. I know Honda is brilliant. Also, another problem is too many government set targets which are worthless, there should be lower CO2 per km for SUVs and fairer CO2 targets for sedans and hatchbacks which are way better for the environment.
Honda have a BEV on sale, Toyota/Subaru are about to put one on sale, and Lexus already have one on sale.
Which is exactly what the boss of BMW has said!
@@joebloggs4191 but BMW make the electric mini brand, and a couple of BEVs and PHEVs
@@PaulMansfield Sure they do but the boss of BMW has declared that they wont be concentrating only on EVs many other parts of the world are nowhere near ready for EVs and to some extent we aren't either.
The Toyota/Subaru is now up for pre-ordering.
Honda is making absolutely lovely efficient cars and yet Europe bashes them. This is why the US will always be richer than Europe. If we bough less 1 series diesels and more civics...
I don't think the system is fair but plug in hybrids do clean the air of our cities since most of the commuting is basically done with electricity and the people that I know who have them, are actually using them as their green purpose suggests. On the other hand, for those saying that the Honda E is expensive, how many households do you whose 2 cars must absolutely fill the same role? Why would a family with a range rover and 5 series haven chosen better or paid more fair prices for their use case than a family that had the range rover and needed something modern, fun and VERY good looking just for the school run, grocery shopping or local client visiting?
Funny, in the U.S. Honda is the automaker with lowest Co2 emissions.
Maybe I'm basic AF but the thumbnail also explained part of Honda's problem which wasn't talked about in the video The Civic Type R. This probably hurts the brand's average because that is only a civic in name with a beastly turbo four aimed at fun not fuel economy. I wonder what their average numbers are without the Type R.
I agree, the rules are missing the point they are implemented in first place to make cars more greener
Tesla is gift that keeps on giving '
I’d wish Honda would partner with Tesla to make a straight electric s2000 or a Mazda mx-5 competitor.
im sure they dont need to partner with anyone since they can build an elecric car all by themselves. Problem is - how many buyers would a new s2000 get? Obviously not enough to make it justifieable. Honda needs a star seller car that could finance the side projects like a new s2000.
@@adomolis if Honda continues with the Honda E as their ev pioneer, then Honda as a brand will die.
@@scorpion251970 theyre soon to release fully electric hrv.
Great video on the issue of CO2. Like it was discused before brands are killing off sedans and station wagons in favour of SUVs which are like a brick compared to sedans and station wagons and use a lot more fuel and then people moan abouy it and how much fuel does it use! Well hello! It doesn't take Einstein to figure that out. And more fuel means more CO2 and most of SUVs don't have the same space as station wagons and sedans. They look huge on the outside and you sit higher and you get a false feeling of beeing safer because of that and so on....
Good editorial sir. Yes Honda is dragging their heals. :-(
But what about aftermarket parts. They mess with emissions too
Bakersfield shirt! Also, an interesting video.
Where have you been Rory !! I was a little worried that you had jacked it in.
Packed intimidating?
I’m not surprised, Honda now go whole years without releasing a model. Japanese manufacturers have gone from being innovation leaders to thoroughly behind American, S. Korean and even European manufacturers
Hang on a minute, are we supposed to be saving the World? Or just London, the UK or Europe? If we are talking about pollution we HAVE to take into account the environmental cost of EV battery production and disposal which changes things somewhat.
Are we taking into account the exploration, drilling, refining and transporting of oil?
By all means, take it ALL into account. For example an old occasionally used diesel is a lot “cleaner” than its newly made EV replacement transported half way round the world.
@@kenbatchelor8284 but if people are buying new cars electric is the future. The minerals are a major concern, yes, but there are mitigations and solutions. LFP batteries for a start, and perhaps sodium ion, aluminium ion and other technologies. EVs already have many advantages over ICE cars and we need the infrastructure in place now to make sure they’re ready for full adoption as the technology matures.
@@colinnich Not to mention the huge amounts of electricity used to just pump oil out of the ground, before it even gets to a refinery.....
Only bureaucracies can make such messes and the EU makes the biggest messes of all; great video again. Elon has brilliantly identified regulatory arbitrage as a cash-cow which is why he's heading out of Tesla. Tesla hasn't got a prayer of making sustainable profits to meet its valuation without these windfalls.
I am not sure about profits, but Tesla is definitely on the right track towards an environmentally sustainable future. For example, all that Lithium is currently minded using only Electric Diggers and Carried across continents on Electric Trucks, Trains and Electric Cargo Ships. And these vehicles and cars are charged using "Electricity", which we all know has zero emissions.
Tesla hasn't needed the regulation credits for a year or two now - making plenty of profit from trying to keep up with demand for their cars
plain wrong icon, their profits minus regulatory credits are easy to find should you look, also they're accelerating
Q1 2022 $18.8 billion revenue (higher than Toyota), and industry leading automotive gross margin of 32.9% - regulatory credits only $679 million.
“The more we see out of Tesla, the more we are concerned about the rest of the industry’s ability to play catch-up,” Morgan Stanley.
@@waynerussell6401 Where's the profit?
The ending music volume tho...
Funny, Honda has the best emissions in the US. What are you guys doing in Europe or UK?
Great vid which exposes the stupidity of the system. Why don't they also look at the energy used in the production process, then SUV's and battery powered cars won't look so good.
*Incase you've been living under a rock* 🤣
I really think Honda deserve this , I am a Honda fan boy but I have to admit that they deserve it because in past 20 years there product line is not that well caliberated and not that well designed for market they are focusing they always came late to the party and so late that ,that is the last few years of that old technology and also sometimes back they use to be a technological masterpiece manufacturing company where every is distinct with Honda dna but this is lacking in their newer products and even the product pricing is exuberant and don’t come in affordable category and I really feel disappointed by honda
Plenty of PHEV drivers plug in and drive exclusively in EV. The problem is how insanely inefficient the ICE when it turns on. Most PHEV manufacturer don't optimize the engine for efficiency since they use a regular engine off the shelf. A Prius type engine + PHEV would be incredibly efficient.
Lies. Most people don't even plug in the hybrids. They either forget or live in a place that makes it a task to run a plug.
You would have hoped that by now Honda and the others would have focused more on the PhEV's and range extended electric car market.
Or even better pure EV's but you know...
Honda decided to quit manufacturing cars in the UK because they simply were not selling well enough here. If they'd made the cars enough people wanted to buy, then they'd still be here. They simply chose to move their UK production base nearer to the market where they knew they could sell the cars it produced. Both Kia and Hyundai each sold more cars every year in the UK than did Honda. Make the cars people want to buy, and they'll buy 'em. It's that simple....
im confused he said hondas dont have plug in hybrid but isnt the jazz one ?
LOL, the huge Ford Mondeo hybrid with 2.0 petrol engine has lower CO2 emission than the new hybrid Jazz...
Honda a heal dragging brand… so true
Honda have pretty much died in Europe, Next Civic lined up for the UK is Hybrid Auto Only no SI 200Bhp like in the US no Manual option , WTAF.
Sucks so much but we have to get this emissions thing under some control. I'm not looking forward to driving any of these boring quiet cars
Personal transportation pods are the future cars. I just dont see myself driving an ev for fun, when it can do it itself.
I'd imagine half of the manufacturers of today won't exist in the next 50 years as the industry consolidates. EVs will be much of muchness so differentiating the product will be much more difficult
I lived under a rock for two years once!
Wait, how is it okay for different companies to band together to get their average down
Use a pic of the CR-V that's been on sale since 2018...
Is this a massive oversight from Honda..
Well that is an interesting view.
I'm over here in Kern county California wondering, what the heck is the Bakersfield trading company?
Shows how daft the fines are from the EU27 in that format. They love their rules.
How is it expectable to not meet the requirements and then just pool with another manufacturer to avoid the penalty, I really don’t believe this should be allowed to happen.
Stellantis paid for the cost of Giga Berlin to be built by the amount of credits they bought from Tesla
Carbon dioxide is not pollution.
Yay: You correctly pronounced TeSla.
Boo: You said forward slash.
the European union is absolutely unbelievable from an Americans POV.....
completely autonomous, with the power of legislation and taxation....
It's interesting how brands that were once innovators get stuck in their ways and fail to move with the times. Toyota made its Prius the most successful hybrid, but have failed to make a good BEV. Even Nissan's Leaf is resting on its laurels with only incremental upgrades. No idea what Honda and Mazda are thinking. They made some of the best petrol engines ever, but going all in on BEVs seems to be beyond them.