Babylon 5 Lore : Delenn's Decision and the League's Inaction
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
Today we'll be discussing Delenn's decision to attack the humans and the league of Non Aliogned Worlds.. and then we'll be doing battle breakdowns.. ALL THE BATTLE BREAK DOWNS.
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The way I see it Lore, the Minbari were using a space based form of "Island Hopping". Island Hopping was a tactic in WW2 where the Allies would avoid some Japanese islands, knowing it wasn't worth the time or strategic effort. This can be shown by the Minbari were destroying all threatening bases, ignoring the task of destroying the civilians below, because they were heading right for Earth for a decapitation strike. Civilians didn't have much higher technology than Earthgov, and Earthgov was getting metaphorically curb stomped, so they weren't too concerned with a flanking attack by the civilian populace.
Now "there" is something I hadn't thought of.
Keep in mind when Delenn is forced to cast her vote, she is holding the still warm and bleeding corpse of her mentor and father figure. I kinda feel that she was outmaneuvered by her elders there, was the guy who asked her a warrior maybe? As for Delenn acting human... We constantly see the Minbari act in an emotional, human manner. We actually see pretty much all the major races act that way expect maybe the Vorlon and Shadows.
As for the League, the Drazi according to resources not on the show sent a fleet to assist but it disappeared in hyperspace and the Minbari dropped and told the Drazi they should be more careful, since they had so many breakable things about. You know... ships, stations, cities, planets. Since the Drazi were one of the League's most militant races... No one else dared...
Kosh had his moments:
Sheridan: Nobody wants to fight a war unless they know there is at least a chance of winning. You can give them that hope. As one of the older races your technology has to be at last as good as the Shadows'. If you can convince your government to send out an expedition to engage one or two of their ships..
Kosh: No.
Sheridan: I know you can't take the entire Shadow fleet by yourselves. But if you could beat them in just one fight, it could be the break we need to get everyone organized. Then we would have a real chance. You could do it, couldn't you?
Kosh: Perhaps. But there are still few of us. It is not our time. It is yours. We are not prepared yet.
Sheridan: Don't turn your back on me. Don't you ever try to walk away from me! Just who the hell do you think you are? Wait, I know what you think you are, what you want us to believe. But I don't buy it. For three years now you've been pulling everyones strings, getting us to do all the work, and you haven't done a damn thing but stand there and look cryptic. It's about time you started pulling your own weight around here. I hear you've got a saying: 'Understanding is a three-edged sword.' Well, we've got a saying too: 'Put your money where your mouth is.
Kosh: Impudent.
Sheridan Yeah? Well, maybe that's the only way to get through to you. You said you wanted to teach me to fight legends. Well, you are a legend too, and I am not going away until you agree.
Kosh: Incorrect. Leave now.
Sheridan: No.
Kosh: Disobedient.
Sheridan: Up yours!"
[Kosh strikes Sheridan with energy blast]
Sheridan: So, the real Kosh shows his colors at last, huh? You angry now? Angry enough to kill me, because that's the only way I'm leaving, unless your people get off their encounter-suited butts and do something. I've got nothing to lose. My own government wants to kill me, and if we lose this war I'm just as dead. Our only chance is to get the other races on board for this fight and right now you are the key to doing that."
Kosh: It is not yet time."
Sheridan: And who decides that time? You? You put me in this position, you asked me to fight this damn war. Well, it's about time you let me fight it my way."
Kosh: "I will do as you ask. .. But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Z'ha'dum."
Sheridan "You already said if I go to Z'ha'dum, I'll die."
Kosh: "Yes. Now."
Sheridan: "Right. If that's the tradeoff, if you want to withhold your help when the time comes, that's fine. I'll go there alone."
Kosh: "You do not understand. But you will."
Amd then later:
Kosh: I don't have much time, son. I want you to know you were right. I didn't want to admit that. Just .. pride, I guess. Yet, my age, you get kind of set in your ways. That had to be done, don't blame yourself .. for what happened later."
Sheridan: Dad? Are you .. all right?"
Kosh: "It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before. I knew what was ahead. I guess .. I guess I was afraid. When you have lived as long as I have, you kind of get used to it. I wish I could've done more for you. There is so much I should've said, and .. now it's too late. You're right, it's time you begin fighting this war your way. .. Aah, I gotta go now, John."
Oh I dunno. The Shadows and Vorlons got pretty emotional there at the end when Sheridan, Lita, and The First One took em by the scruff of the neck and scolded them. It was actually sort of endearing when they both admitted that they were scared of going beyond.
Your point is well made... The guy who asked her was Morann, of the Warrior Caste.
The Minbari tactics during the war make perfect sense when you take into account what we learn about their culture throughout the series.
In the season 1 episode "Legacies", Delenn explains that the key moment that kicked off the whole Earth-Minbari War - the Valen'Tha approaching the Prometheus with her gun ports open - is an act that makes complete sense to Minbari (at least to the Warrior caste) because it's an ancient tradition, and within their culture it's a universally recognised show of peace and respect; it's like the spaceship equivalent of approaching someone with open hands to show you're not armed and are not offering violence. Modern military traditions like the Missing Man flight formation and flying flags upside-down or at half-mast (or even flying a white flag of truce or surrender) wouldn't make any sense to an outsider who has no context either... it's just unfortunate that the cultural confusion in this case was interpreted as aggression instead of eccentricity.
If you want a fantastic example of how one culture's idea of "We come in peace" can be mistaken as an act of aggression, go listen to the Golden Record we sent out with the Voyager 1 and 2 probes... the intent was to express what Earth was like to an alien species who had never experienced it, by recording sounds which are supposed to represent everyday life on our planet. There are sounds of animals on there which *we* recognise immediately as (for example) friendly chimpanzees playing in the jungle - but if you'd never encountered a chimp and the first thing you heard was a cacophony of frenzied screaming and whooping, it might easily sound like terrifying creatures violently attacking each other.
Seriously, go listen to the recording (there's tracks posted by NASA on SoundCloud)... If I had no context for some of the sounds I heard on that record I would be scared witless to even approach Earth!
With regards to the passing over of civilian targets to double back and eradicate them later, this makes perfect sense in the context of the Minbari philosophy of war as taught to the Anla-shok, illustrated in the season 5 episode "Learning Curve"; a big part of defeating your enemy is the practice of instilling *fear*.
As brutal and horrifying as it might be for the Minbari to simply wipe out every Earth installation in their path, the victims would then be written off as simple casualties of war - sad, but to be expected in the crossfire. But by leaving civilians completely safe to begin with and only destroying military targets, the Minbari are saying: "We are accurate and disciplined enough to pick and choose our targets. So when the time comes for us to murder your families as we have murdered your warriors, be sure that we will be just as efficient and thorough." And what's worse is that every Earth combatant will be thinking about their loved ones being destroyed without them being alive to save them... and the Minbari allow that to stew and fester, demoralising the enemy's fighters and instilling fear in the civilian population of what's to come *after* their military has been defeated.
This is the dark side of the Minbari - their belief that, if you commit to utterly destroying your enemy, it's not enough to just kill them... you have to destroy their hope and crush their spirit first.
probably the best breakdown I've ever read
They do heavily assume humanity moves as one people though, and have particular definitions of honour that they apply to them.
And the hypocrisy over the Black Star incident was galling.
That all assum3s that the Minbari have never met another race before humans. I just dont see the first Narn Centauri or Drakh ships to meet a Minbari ship responding any better.
The Minbari were not some naive new race, they had been flying around the galaxy for millennia. Surely they didnt simply impose their cultural views on every single race?
Why do you think Londo reacted with quite such... concern? This is not an anomaly, this is Standard Operating Procedure. I think less so in the present, given signs of reluctance. Actually maturing, even.
Which might also be why he didn't go into too much more detail as to why. "Don't fuck with the Minbari, they're dangerous" might have an effect, "Don't Fuck With the Minbari, because they're omnicidal maniacs who kill trillions for fun" immediately after the Dilgar war, would likely have led to '... I'mma deck 'em in the schnoz'.
"As brutal and horrifying as it might be for the Minbari to simply wipe out every Earth installation in their path, the victims would then be written off as simple casualties of war - sad, but to be expected in the crossfire. But by leaving civilians completely safe to begin with and only destroying military targets, the Minbari are saying: "We are accurate and disciplined enough to pick and choose our targets. So when the time comes for us to murder your families as we have murdered your warriors, be sure that we will be just as efficient and thorough." And what's worse is that every Earth combatant will be thinking about their loved ones being destroyed without them being alive to save them... and the Minbari allow that to stew and fester, demoralising the enemy's fighters and instilling fear in the civilian population of what's to come after their military has been defeated."
They're kinda like the Anti-Spirals that way, I guess. Otherwise... part of the point is to inspire terror in other races, but mainly... they seem to have quite a Blood Knight streak. Orbital bombardment is so impersonal, you just press a button, and kill a billion people in a flash. No, they want to *feel* it. You kill anything that can interrupt you, and then you take your time having fun. Flay a few thousand babies in front of their mothers, boil some people alive, participate in a rousing decapitation conquest, maybe do some rapes (inferior beasts, yes, but that's what clubs are for), good times. A mausoleum of scorched glass may be an effective warning, but it just doesn't have the classic *style* of a mountain of bones.
More charitably... they've been there, they've done all that... but things are a bit different now, they've been in isolation, not going on periodic murder sprees for a while. And now that they've got the chance, it just seems... unfair. You're a warrior race at heart and these latest enemies just aren't giving much of a struggle. So you go fight nothing but the strongest foes you can, and you're *still* winning handily. You should be doing The Killing, but there's just no... spark to it. So you hope for some threat that will justify it, that will prove your bloodlust to be proper, but there is none, and now people grow *weary*... you've changed, perhaps matured.
(I.e., the Minbari *were* pretty vicious killers, but they can't really justify that kind of action culturally anymore, leading to rising discontent with the war, and avoiding attacking civilians because... well, it just doesn't seem fair. This perspective probably sees the Minbari saying 'eh... you know what... fuck it. and just leaving' shortly after winning the battle of Earth, but... eh.
MImbari fights in casts. First they destroy enemies warrior caste. Then they will mve to other castes.
You know what is really ironic, the Narns probably sold weapons that were used to upgrade Human Technology that we see on Omega Destroyer that can put humanity further ahead to the other races, possibly even on par with the Centarui, and they abandon the Narns in their time in need against the Centari.
Clark specifically abandoned them, because of his alliance with the shadows. Earth Alliance probably would have intervened otherwise.
I get chills every time I hear Delenn's proclamation of "No mercy!".
Yeah same, that scene on the ship when they asked her what they should do was amazing.
Okiedog1
I always get chills when I see her in "Severed Dreams" :D
My favorite Delenn line is, "In Earth-Minbari history only one man has fought Minbari cruisers and lived to talk about it. He is behind me, you are in front of me" (ok, it may not be the exact wording but close enough)
Matthew Brandenburg "Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives be somewhere else !" I agree, a brilliant line and I think reflects the journey that Delenn has gone through in the series.
"Too late to get out! Our primary systems are hit. We've got fire on all decks now. There's nothing we can do now except..." That always gets me.
Throughout the entire series, the other races are portrayed as being petty, self-interested jerks.
That was one of the reasons for the rise of Clarke and the whole earth first mentality. Humanity had been slaughtered, on the verge of extinction, and abandoned by the League after the humans had helped the League in just that kind of situation with the Dilgar. The fact that nobody else would act honorably or live up to their commitments made humans jaded and was why they didn't feel obliged to get involved against the Centauri or the Shadows.
I tend to agree with this. A great deal of the series was devoted to trying to get the League to stop acting that way. The in-fighting within the League was so bad that at times, they couldn't even function as a political body.
Yes Virginia I totally agree.
The league couldn't even cooperate with itself. Yet humans saved their butts then were abandoned. That combined with the minbari, the rise of Clark was unavoidable.
Another point should be that, by the beginning of the show, Earth had become quite a galactic power starting to butt their way into the affairs of others, especially those of the League. Earth was denounced as acting like the galaxy's policemen.
In a way yes and with power comes arrogance.
At the start ea was stronger than narn but weaker than centauri.
By the end, they weren't easy second only to the minbari.
I would disagree EyesOfFrozenMeat, the League didn't seem to denounce human involvement at all, it was the humans who resented it. Half of the first couple of seasons is consumed with everybody except the Vorlons and the Minbari running to the humans and trying to get them to mediate and take sides or otherwise solve their problems. There's no hint that any of the other races had a problem with the humans doing that, but the humans didn't want to be doing it, hence the desire to shut down B5 and the constant need to politically justify it.
Realisticly WHAT could The League do to help against the mighty Minbari?
Earth was a rising power who helped defeat the Dilgar invasion of the League, now the Minbari showed how outclassed ALL of them are (aside from the Vorlon). League of Non-Aligned Worlds, that name tells you pretty much all you need to know about this group, they ain't sticking their necks out for anyone.
Yeah, the Minbari were likely 1000 years ahead of the others, though the Shadows were probably correct that it was the war that advanced them, they may have progressed slowly after that or stagnated. Even though Centauri heard whispers of Drakh and the Narn had stories of Shadows from back then, they weren't where the Minbari were technologically.
In the episode titled "Atonement" you discover Delenn herself is descended from Valen
I think that the League initially wanted to help humanity, but the Minbari basically threatened them with the same fate as the humans to keep them out of the war.
was that in a novel or more inference? I can see that but I would think they would try diplomacy..the Narn did
@@LoreReloaded it was in the novel. Based off of the unaltered(non condensed) script.
@@LoreReloaded I remember reading it from somewhere, but I don't remember where, so this could be non-canon
John August Back when Babylon 5 was on the air it seemed that literally everything connected to it was canon I remember a very minor panel in the short lived comic book series that became a plot element on the show used to shake things up in a major way. I suspect anything in the novels is part of the official canon too.
The Narn weren't trying to help humanity, they were trying to destroy the Centauri. Earth tried to buy Centauri weapons to fight the Mimbari with, the Centauri refused to sell, because they knew if they did and the Mimbari found out about it, they would decide the Centauri were collaborating with Earth and so the Mimbari would turn on them as well. The Narn agreed to sell weapons to Earth, but not their own weapons, they were selling captured Centauri weapons, just hoping the Mimbari would find them and assume they came from the Centauri.
These videos are making me want to watch the show again. Thank you!
I think the reasons the Minbary just wiped out the military and left the civilian is because they were protecting them selves on to the humans. I.E only the warrior cast fights. So Minbary did not realize that human plus anything that can be used as a weapon equals a fighter.
As for the league of non-aligned world's. Lore wise the races do not seem to extend empathy to other races. It took a Shadow invasion to unite. I do think the writers were trying to invoke the League of Nations.
Thank you for doing these videos on Bayalon 5. It was my Star Trek when I was a kid.
ahh cool, glad you enjoy them.
Not necessarily, the Minbari Worker and Religious castes also control a portion of their forces. I think it would come down to if they showed no will to fight, they would be left alone till the time comes. Strange way to do things but so is landing ground troops and infiltrating an Earth Alliance installation/world, on the hunt for the enemy commander for a one-on-one
I agree about the league requiring a real threat to bring them together, also they on multiple occasions show themselves to be quite cowardly. I suspect they were too scared to show any alignment to the Earth Alliance out of fear of bringing the Minbari Wrath against them. It is however possible that they did some negotiations in the background, the Minbari had intel in Earthforce personnel etc
Londo basically said that the Centauri wouldn't be caught selling arms to the Humans because even they knew better than to piss off the Minbari, so imagine how reluctant the League of Non-Aligned Worlds would have been to aid Earth on a military basis. They might have been able to offer humanitarian aid or safe haven when the evacuation of Earth began, but beyond that anything else would have just painted a target on their back for when the Minbari had finished with Humanity.
I think the League of Non-Aligned Worlds had no teeth. You see this a lot in the series, with the League doing a ton of nothing. Most of their members were cowardly and self-interested and would need someone to drag them in kicking and screaming to actually do something. This also feels like the whole Earth/Mimbari War took maybe six to nine months to run it's course. Which doesn't give the other races much time to do much of anything. The Centauri and Narn were already involved and on Earth, so they had time to set things up to provide some aid for Earth... But even they didn't have time to do much.
It doesn't help that the Mimbari were by far the 1000lb gorilla in the room with only the Centauri having a reasonable chance to go toe to toe with them. When your sure your ships would get smashed if you dared challenge the actions of the Mimbari... Well that would certainly give most people pause.
i think that it is analogous of the USA and how it is a collection of different cultures, where as previously there are "team-ups" through familial alliances and such, but for the most part the rest of the world (up until world war 2) were mostly isolationist in terms of providing aid.
Well when it comes to the League, let us think about it. The Earth Alliance are coalition builders and bring people together, then in an instance of misunderstanding bring the wrath of the Minbari upon them. When in most other circumstances this unifying leader would group everyone together against a common threat, this singular common threat has a singular telescopic target: The leader.
Imagine a room full of people and a leader keeping them together. Imagine 9 individuals, bigger and stronger than the rest walking in on stride and waving everyone aside then pushing the singular leader out. Nobody will help because they are not only scared but are unable to bring faith in themselves to help the one that brings them together. It's hard to explain but it's a bit of crowd tactics. I recall if a strong enough of a group forces their way against a singular individual even in a group then the group will refuse to help whether due to threat of punishment or lack of interest.
A single man with a knife surrounded by people will murder another in New York City but all those people will stand around and do nothing because they're afraid, often not of the man with the knife itself but of other societal consequences if they help.
In short, cowardice.
@1:55 When I watched In The Beginning for the first time I was delighted to see Michael York reprise his role as King Arthur...I mean Gunnery Officer David McIntyre. Then the next time I watched it a year later having found out what my uncle went through in the Congo with the UN in '61; well it changed that moment, and every rewatch of "Late Delivery From Avalon". It became heart breaking for me to watch; but I still do, York alongside David McCallum is one of my favourite actors of his generation (McCallum also appeared in the episode "Infection")
One of the joys of Bab5 for me was how it was whenever possible made from whole-cloth; referring back to itself, maintaining it's internal consistency.
And yeah I always felt Delenn was honestly not more than a child at this point in her life. The sense I always had, and the series never removed that sense, was that she lived almost like a novice in a religious order for a lot of her life. Sheltered, far from the nastier side of the universe; hell, when had the Mimbari last gone to war? Not even the Centauri dared to tweak that tail. A plateaued society, post scarcity, with no enemies...why would she react in any other way than as a child who's just had her "father" die in her arms? Would any of us act differently?
The League on the other hand is a clear proxy for the League of Nations during the build up to WWII; ineffective and ultimately toothless. That said, for the show this had to be that way for the "humans build communities" schtick to work so...make of that what you will. But I will defend the Narns.
The Narns had just regained their freedom after generations of enslavement, not occupation though that was a part of it, but enslavement of the entire species. They literally belonged to the Centauri. The Narn of that time had first hand knowledge of what it was to suffer a a race. Had first hand knowledge of facing their extinction every single day. And more, far more than ANY other race including the Mimbari Warrior Caste the Narns carried a warriors honour. Their own form of honour to be sure, and so not totally translatable to human honour codes, but honour none the less.
They did what they could to help, because it paid, it helped them against their own enemy, and because on some level they saw it was right to do.
I'm going to leave off here by saying that one of the greatest aspects of Bab5 as a show is that even now 20 years after it ended we still don't truly understand its universe, it peoples, their lives, or their cultures and histories. It's a show that left us with like our own, a universe of mysteries and questions; except for one...
Swedish Meatballs are the one truly universal language.
I believe it was technically archived footage, like with O'Hare.
I remembered that after I posted, and couldn't be arsed to fix it. ;-) It's late, I'm lazy, and either way more York is better than less.
My suspicion is that the League's inaction was the result of a Prisoner's Dilemma situation. Humanity alone against the Minbari would lose badly, but Humanity backed by the entire League could at least force a truce. Unfortunately, it would require all (or nearly all) of the entire League to fully commit to the war. If any major players backed out, or never joined up to begin with, the alliance would be screwed - and everyone knew it. So, most groups decided it would be safer to stay away.
As for leaving civilians behind... True, it's not wise to leave resistance forces at your back, but consider how much infrastructure something like a shipyard needs. If the Minbari show up, destroy the defending fleet, and wreck the shipyard and interstellar communication facility as military targets on their way out (which seems legit to me: if it can build new ships or call fresh troops in, it's effectively a military target), then that planet's civilian population may as well be trapped there for months, years, or even decades. The Minbari can then take their time and hit other big targets before they have to circle around and go full death-squad on the civilians. Smaller colonies that depend on shipping from elsewhere to survive might not even need that much additional attention if they starve on their own, saving the Minbari the trouble.
I think it's all in Londo's warning. Even when the Centauri were at the height of their power and expanding in all directions, they never once challenged the Minbari. If the League couldn't stand against the Dilgar without Earth's help and Earth is getting it's ass handed to it, they sure as hell will not intervene in another military conflict without military backing from some other power. The same way most UN countries don't do squat without US military support. The Minbari were isolationist and dangerous and had fought the Shadow War a thousand years prior. They would be near insurmountable to all younger races the same way the Vorlons are to them.
The League at this point, so soon after the Dilgar war, was still being protected by the EA. Militarily the league had very little left to defend with. Diplomatically The League had just as few options as the Minbari to this point had been galactically insular and so diplomatic channels did not seem to exist. If the League pushed too hard at the Minbari by appearing to aid the EA militarily, this war of retribution would fall on them. Furthermore I think the League wanted to be able to defend themselves should the Narn or Centauri take advantage of the chaos.
The events in the movie "In the beginning" show that very early in the war overtures were made via the Narn so given the results is it unreasonable to think that the Minbari would have been un-receptive even if the league had been willing.
As far as the claim about killing the military then going back for civilians goes that was the theory of Earth Alliance based on the Minbari only targeting military and not targeting civilians as well as the Minbari being part of a caste system that separated its people based on worker/warrior/religion (also stuff we learn in "In the beginning").
Given the fact that by the end of the war even the warrior caste was clearly disturbed by the fact they were basically slaughtering what they saw as a helpless enemy (even though it was the Human military that was armed and fighting back) how likely is it that they would start butchering unarmed men women and children in vastly greater numbers once all the Human military was destroyed?
Sinclair said he had never seen the Minbari behave dishonorably, that it was not their style so maybe that is the answer.
In the moment of distress and anger they pledge to commit genocide but when faced with the actual reality of doing it they simply could not so limited their killing to the EA military, the whole "we will go back and do the civvies after we have dealt with the military" would then be a excuse, a way of holding onto their principals and avoiding or at least delaying the genocide of billions of helpless people.
As you rightly point out its a poor tactic and a transparent one as who avoids killing civilians when the intent is genocide lol yet that is what they did.
Minbari do not lie unless its to save another so lying to avoid killing billions of others is consistent with canon.
best i got.
Don't forget, just before Earthforce opened fire on the Minibari, Soul Hunter ships were spotted in the area.
As far as delenn having an eye for Sinclair, it was originally written for Sinclair to be captain of b5 for more then one season and Michael O'hares illness kept him from continuing.
'a mild attraction to humans.'
And you said Sinclair. Ironic considering he was her great grandfather many times removed though neither of them knew though future/past Valen did. Man is that screwed up.
Game of thrones Babylon 5 style 😉😂👍
The Drazi did send a fleet to support the EA at the begining of the war. The fleet disappeared. Later the Minbari sent a Sharlin to each of the Leagues homeworld telling them to stay out of the war.
Delenn IS a child of Valenn. She's a descendant
Sasho Windfeather I'm so happy I'm not the only one who remembered this
I came into make the comment... so there's at least 3 of us!! woohoo
Rob Semenoff Four of us :)
Five of us, and I'm pretty sure he was trying to be sarcastic (what with the "not at all related" quip) without spoiling it for the other people - but yeah, that would have been more than a little creepy if she hooked up with her great-great-great-x20-grandfather, even if he was still Sinclair at the time...
lol true :)
The Minbari exist in castes, so that’s how they see other races. The warriors fight warriors the civilians were left alone as a result.
The league only makes sense if you watch B5 to the end, they only act in self interest and get involved if they have an overwhelming capability, as a result the league was a sort of nuclear deterrent, showing outside forces that you have to take them all on but internally each opposing faction would garner support from others but never enough for one side to against another, it’s MAD!
As I understand it, I think there was fear of the Minbari playing a role in League inaction, coupled with the fact that they were still very much recovering from the Dilgar War. Also, the League wasn't properly formalized at this point in the Babylon 5 history.
The League was in a bad condition itself, after suffering from the Dilgar and the war. My guess would be they may not see themselves in a position to do anything, especially at the risk of drawing the ire of the Minbari. They could barely defend themselves against the Dilgar and needed humanity to help them and now had to watch how the Humans got swated aside like insencts by the Minbari. I can definitely see how no-one would like to be next on the chopping block ... especially if they cant form a coalition and thus had to fear to stand up alone! That would be suicide, at least a big chance for that. In that, its understandable how the League watched from the sidelines.
The Narn on the other hand considered themselves to be trained in suffering, so they could dare to help the Humans. For a steep price, without fearing much. They thought they might weather a punishment from the Minbari (like G'Kar told the Humans), and if they succeeded in helping the Humans survive, the Earth Alliance would be in their debt (again, like G'Kar tried to pull a favor from Sinclair over that debt).
Deleen carried the burden of her impulsive vote for a long time and had to deal with it on every other turn. She never aquited herself of the guilt and responsibility of it though, only came to terms with it and learn to live with it.
Exactly what I think 👍
Also, the Narn were selling captured Centauri weaponry, so their hope was that if the weapons were discovered, the Minbari would go after the Centauri.
One of the biggest hurdles of the fledgling interstellar Alliance was convincing the League of Nonaligned Worlds to work with and protect each other. An idea that was completely foreign to these races. The Earth First movement may have been a movement on Earth, but that mentality was normal among the League as a whole. The reason the Earth First movement was so pronounced is that it didn't match up with most of the humans' mentality. It was also something that the member of the League could point at and say that humans were just like them, so why should they help? Earth Frist may have been highlighted in later seasons, but the fearmongering was already there, but not shared by the quiet majority of humans.
I think, at that Point the league was at About the Military strength of earth, and seeing how the Earth Forces were slaughtered left, Right and Center, the league just thought it wasn't worth it. As Things stand, in the B5 universe most species rise united, with earth and the mimbari being exeptions, so These species would NOT being drwn into a conflict they know would instently destroy them. And the only two species who had any Chance at Building alliances were Fighting each other
If you remember how Londo reacted when the name Mimbari was noted at the start of the movie, he was behind his composure terrified. The smaller races must have been in absolute shock about the Mimbari that never interact with anybody where in a complete rage. "Everybody keep your heads down, don't attract their attention before we know what the hell is going on" sounds like a plauible reaction to me, maybe not heroic, but plausible.
Like the videos, keep them coming!
My two cents:
The Narn only sold arms to Earth because, as G'Kar points out, (a) there's profit, (b) if the Minbari find out they'll pin it on the Centauri and the Narn win by default and (c) the Narn were enslaved by the Centauri for centuries and have nothing to lose if the Minbari do find out.
To paraphrase Sheridan: trying to get the League to do to anything beyond individual self preservation (Sheridan has to trick them into working together in season 5) is like stacking marbles in a corner; and getting involved in a one sided war on the behalf of a race that's about to become extinct and risk angering an already enraged Minbari is not a route to self preservation!
As an interesting aside, the incident where the Earthforce ship opened fire because they thought they were about to be attacked is similar to when British settlers first encountered some Aboriginal tribes in Australia; they misinterpreted the Aboriginal signs of respect as a prelude to an attack and opened fire.
As for the Minbari strategy of wiping out the miiltary (to them, Warrior Caste) and then going after the civilians (the Worker and Religious castes) makes sense when you consider it from a Minbari cultural perspective.
The Minbari only conduct Total War of the type we (humans) are familiar with (where everyone, warrior and civilian, is a valid target) when the Grey Council is no longer in charge (i.e. before Valen arrives and during their own civil war).
In Minbari culture (at least for the Grey Council period) Warriors fight, Workers build, Religious pray and those lines are (usually) never crossed.
It would never have occurred to a Minbari Warrior Caste that the civilian population would also take up arms- it's not the job of a civilian to fight (must've been quite a culture shock when this happened and may have explained why the Minbari war dragged on a lot longer than it should've) so there would be no strategic advantage (from a Minbari cultural perspective) in wasting time killing civilians when there are still Warrior Caste to kill elsewhere. Once all the Warriors are dead and there's no opposition (because Workers and Religious don't fight) then you can concentrate on exterminating the other castes.
Granted, from our perspective, it's not very efficient but you're talking about a culture that has more than 60 rituals to perform prior to getting married...
Most of the alien races are usually out for themselves they do tend to help one another but in a limited fashion. You also have to remember that the humans had pissed off the Mimbari. Londo even said that at the height of his people they never messed with the Mimbari and the Republic is most likely the 2nd strongest power (Narns might be close to them it's hard to tell) and yet they feared the Mimbari. The Mimbari are the big dog in the yard that no one wants to mess with and they didn't want to be found out helping the enemy of the Mimbari as that would paint a huge target on them. I think the Narn helped a bit by selling weapons but they were weapons they took from the Centauri and if found would be traced back to them and not the Narn (I think it's been awhile since I saw the show)
Can you do an in depth analysis of Psi Corp and …
How psi works in B5 (The skill stealing looks fun), what are the various talents ?
How Psi Corp arose and it's history with the government.
It's super secret hidden programs and long term plans and experiments - such as breeding better psis and improving power, being able to record psi combat, having a hidden capital ship(s) in hyperspace, and their other dirty tricks and hidden assets.
How they controlled psi's.
How other species handled psi and compared to human abilities (Narn had no psi).
And the biggy, how the Vorlons fitted into all this.
Remember, The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father.
I intend to ;)
Aside from her being distraught, I think she was intending for them to strike the group that hit them, not go into an all out war. She seemed like she just wanted to hurt the people who hurt her mentor, and didn’t consider anything beyond that. I think that is why she felt so guilty, because the question posed to her was ‘strike back’ not ‘go to war’, and she was new to leadership.
As for the tactics I can see the military wanting to make sure that the survivors pooled themselves into designated areas for later. It would make it far easier for them to butcher the survivors to have them in areas that they would know to look for.
I wouldn't say that Delen being "young" was the source of her impulsiveness in voting to make war on Earth. Considering that the events of the Earth-Minbar war was only a handful of years before the start of the series, she wasn't much younger during the main time frame than during the flashback episodes. It's true that even in the first season she was pretty stand off-ish and a bit cold, but you can watch her character evolve as she's exposed to humans and begins to understand them more than she did when Dukhat died in her arms (which, really, would be super traumatic to anyone). This is an example of how B5 is well written. The characters evolve and have to face their faults eventually.
Similarly, the Narn weren't helping the humans during the war out of the kindness or compassion of their hearts. It was discussed sometime later in the series that Narn would do almost anything for money. They had a cold war with the Centauri to fund and the humans needed every gun they could get their hands on. In the same episode (pretty sure), it was brought up how much money they Narn had made off of the humans. It was only years after that Earth helped found the League that the comradery and community-building tendencies of humans started rubbing off on the other races. Prime example is when G'kar admitted that the other races were "working together as they never have before" and when the League voted to support the Resistance during their final push towards Earth, even though they weren't going to engage Earth Force directly themselves. Again, more character evolution. Not sloppy writing.
Appreciate the content on B5! It's been long overlooked as a great scifi.
so happy someone is covering B5 I like it equally as much as trek if not more since its so finite.
glad you enjoy
Destroying the inferior human's capacity to fight first, maintaining momentum and keeping them off balance, then wiping out their civilians later was a sound strategy IMO. There was no threat of being attacked from behind because the human resistance was so pathetic. Maybe if they had some reason to respect their adversary the Membari would have followed your suggestion.
Non Alignd worlds did the same thing when Sheridan "fell" at Za'Ha'Dum (No idea if that was correctly spelled) and basically abandoned the alliance against the Shadows until Sheridan came back.
They even went so far as trying to prevent Delenn from marshaling a force.
Also, for Lorereloaded. Grant concentrated on destroying the confederate Army, once Lee was vanquished there was no one to defend Richmond, or Mobile or Charlotte.
How...exactly..is this related ?
It is an argument by analogy. By destroying the army, there is no one left to defend the cities. There is no officer caste to lead, So yes the Humans could have sent out a million militia men in armed cargo ships, they would have still got slaughtered. What the minbari were doing, is what the path of modern warfare generally follows. No military no capacity to fight.
I think the issue with the non aligned worlds is that they do not want to do anything until it impacts them in some way. Like the Narn only helped because we were buying weapons from them after that its nothing. The way all of the members of the non aligned worlds is basically we will not help until it impacts us to a degree where we have to step in.
Some of the league were willing to send ships to help earth, but the minbari sent small fleets to their worlds telling/threatening them not to get involved. And while they would take human evacuees, that's about it. I sure at least someone tried to talk to the minbari for earth, but the war had taken on a life of it's own. The only out the minbari saw was to destroy earth. It was Kosh who gave delenn her "other option".
Delenn's line about humans building communities was just J. Michael Straczynski soapboxing about humans coming together. A nice sentiment but it does undercut the other races, and humans weren't exactly uniting other species into being best buddies and singing Kumbaya.
My guess about the League of Non-Aligned Worlds' lack of action was that before the Earth-Minbar war, they had never seen the Minbari so enraged. It probably scared them half to death just seeing the awsome power that could be brought to bear by a Sharlin War Cruiser. They saw the Minbari's wrath and they trembled in fear, just hoping that the Sharlins didn't turn their guns at them.
I’ve started rewatching Babylon 5 because of these videos.
Glad :)
1) the human attack was completely unprovoked.
2) it was basically Delenn’s first day on the job.
3) not only was Dukhat basically the equivalent of a risen Christ to the Minbari he was also Delenn’s mentor and father figure and he’d just died in her arms due to people she’d studied
your forgetting, this wasnt a minbari cruiser wandering outside of its own territory, it was at the edge of an isolationist minbari space, but still within its own borders. its scanners were active, but its defences were down. thats the only reason the earth alliance vessels could even target it. The first time the two races meet humanity pulls a pearl harbor on the minbari. After that without nukes humanity couldnt even scratch the paint of minbari cruisers
The response of Delen shaped the entire series as did the whole genocide of humans. The futility of the war, the lack of understanding and the ability to back down shapes pretty much all the decisions and stances all the world's take. I agree the lack of support for earth alliance could be confusing. But no-one knows much about the minbari due to their isolationist policies. Even the centauri, one if the oldest races know little about them and would not dare cross them. It shapes all stories moving on and I thing a genuinely amazing bit of writing by Strazysinski (don't check the spelling). I am yet to come across another sci-fi that has that vision across a series
In In the Beginning Londo advises Earth to send a single unarmed ship to open contact with the Minbari. Instead EarthGov launches an entire fleet of warships commanded by a guy known for his twitchiness. The open gunport greeting was foolhardy, but that was also done without Dukat's consent and he angrily asked why they did it, unfortunately he's killed moments after. I think it's more that Earth fell into the trap of wanting to look "strong" at first contact like the good ol' gunboad diplomats in the 19th century and paid for that hybris dearly.
I loved it when Delenn said that all of her life she thought that Valen was all knowing. It was a surprise for her to learn that he only knew as much as Sinclair did after finding out that he was Valen, after all.
They did kinda gloss over the impact of that. She took it with more stride than I would have.
I'm not sure about this, but I think I remember at some point hearing the Minbari sent emissaries to the different races and told them to stay out of their crusade.... I will have to do some digging to find it
some have said it, if you find the resource - i'd love to see it..
The diff between Star Trek and B5 owners...im glad u can use these video clips!
The Narns only sold the EA weapons due to the profit to be made and the chance of implicating the Centauri
G'Kar was so cool about it too. I almost hoped he could've pulled it off.
Honestly, i'm surprised the Narn got involved. It took the League getting humanity involved to beat the Dilgar, who warred with Cap guns compared to the Mimbari.
This video digresses a bit, going on about Delenn's supposed attractions to Sinclair and later Sheridan. If the actor portraying Sinclair wasn't in trouble and had to leave, it would have been him doing what Sheridan did.
I was hoping for more on Delenn using a line like "We are a people gone mad" as she tries to end the war and discovers that Sinclair is related to some Minbari descended from Valen.
I think the Minbari were isolationist at this time, and didn't get information about humans second-hand from the other races.
It was humans wanting peace that established the Babylon Project to have a meeting place for trade and diplomacy among the races. It's a testament to this dream that they kept trying after B1 through B3 were destroyed and B4 vanished. We later learn it was pulled back in time to help the previous Shadow War with Sinclair becoming Valen in similar process to how Delenn transformed herself to be more human (and would later have a son by Sheridan).
Other Minbari aren't told why they had to surrender, and this caused resentment and eventually civil war. But they get behind the Babylon Project and choose Sinclair to run it. They had been influenced by or followers of the Vorlons who encouraged this, both because "He is the closed circle" and perhaps it suits their idea of Order, and maybe even Kosh's attempt to break the cycle.
I don't usually post in the RUclips comments, but I want to address your question about the League of Non-Aligned Worlds not standing for the Earth Federation. I think it does have something to do with Delenn's supposition that humans are of one of the few species inclined to build collations. I don't think she means this to the exclusion of all other species. After all, the League existed before the EA go out of Sol. However, and I think the show backs me up on this through the observed behavior of both humanity and other species, humans are more inclined to it than other species.
I think what was likely going on in the background was that the League did have sympathetic elements. There were likely even factions pushing for an official response of condemnation towards the Minbari's actions during the war. However, as none of the member states were as inclined towards coalition as the humans, and most of them had been around long enough to see the Minbari at their most bloodthirsty, none of them were willing to take the risk stand up for humanity without the rest of the League at their backs and none of the members were willing to go down in history as the one who dragged the League into the path of the Minbari while the Minbari were on a full war-footing. They didn't value coalition enough to take that risk.
That's just what I think happened though.
On the face it says 'bad writing', but a step back in thought has me thinking it was more, the non-aligned worlds wanted to help but at the same time protect their own interests. Likely positioning to take advantage of what possibly would remain of the humans should they have been brought to the brink of being wiped out entirely. The 'wait and see what happens' approach to go get free resources/technology or see if the Minbary would overextend themselves enough to be open to attack in such a way that adequate defense on an extended front would be next to impossible.
With that in mind it would also be likely that if the other races already knew the capabilities of the Minbary already and had foresight enough to recognize the humans would be an issue if left unchecked, decided that going with a known to let it take care of an as yet unrealized, was the best move.
There's another less explored idea, that if the Minbary knew of and interacted with other non-aligned races that likewise knew and interacted with humans. Why then when an encounter showed on the horizon, did no other race mention to the Minbary that going into a first contact situation with weapons showing is a bad idea for an already tense situation with a race that may see such as an open threat? If so, was it the intent of the non-aligned to take advantage and see if the two races would likely destroy each other if not weaken themselves to leave both open to attack by a third race?
But that's just speculation on my part, since this series is about as interested in the Bab 5 series as I ever got.
Hi from my understanding i also think that maybe some first involvment of the shadows in the background had started. It never exatly stated when it started. But on mingbary site i say yes Dukant was a believer of the writing of Valan an i an sure he got into that meeting with the plan to find zahadum and humans with the council snd hr used the warrios doubt to start his pla.
I think you have to take into account the nature of the League at the time. Prior to the Shadow war, and then even to a degree after (though less so) the League was really an organization that was just about trying to keep the rivalries from breaking into all out war. They weren't really a coalition of worlds it was more a committee of rivals.
So the world's of the League may well have said "the Mimbari live in isolation and don't bother us. Humanity however is a species that wants to take part on the Galactic stage and, if not now, eventually will be the most Species on that stage and may prove to be a threat to our interests."
That being the case they may well have simply decided that mesaing with the Mimbari wasnt worth it and that their destroying humanity would essentially reset the status quo to something they we're already more than comfortable with.
WMG Delenn is a direct descendant of Valen, might have been mentioned on the show or cannon materials somewhere.
Sheridan says it best. The non aligned worlds are like stacking marbles in a corner, hip deep in their own agendas...
The thing I take away from the inactivity from the LONAWs on behalf of humanity is this: The Mimbari are at the time of the war with humanity the most powerful and elder of the younger races.
The league members saw their silence as means to protect themselves. The entire Mimbari race seemed hell bent on destroying humanity and an ally of my enemy is also a threat to be dealt with.
Simple self preservation. The only other race that might have given the Mimbari pause was the Centauri. But by this time, that great empire was on the wane and basically toothless.
I think it was a lack of understanding cultural relativism. Jankowski mistook the Minbari opened gun ports as an imminent attack and opened fire on them. The Minbari were just as culpable because Ducat despite it being a Minbari tradition ordered the gun ports to be closed immediately but, it was too late. Now it was a Naval tradition for the entire crew to stand on the top deck when encountering other ships to show that their cannons were unmanned.
Sorry Delenn. Everybody is dangerous - ambassador G'Kar
The League, as the kids would say, didn't want any smoke. The general consensus among all the known races was generally "for the love of god, don't fuck with the Minbari!" Why would any of them help the weird upstart humans? Who were we to them? Largely nobody, that's who.
Think about this, Iran is a member of the UN. Do you think they supported the invasion of Iraq? Did Russia? Did China? It's pretty easy to imagine the Non-Aligned Worlds throwing up their hands and deciding it's not their problem. It might also have to do with the balance of power and technological levels too.
This is one thing I did like about Babylon 5 over Star Trek. You never really get to see much of a difference in terms of tech levels in trek. Occasionally, but not nearly as much as Babylon 5 where you have species who are literal gods flying around that you need to be careful of.
Considering earth dealt with one species earlier, I suspect all the non-aligned guys must of been close in technological level to earth. And the show suggested the Minari where more advanced than even the Centauri who easily dispatched species like the Narn.
Bringing it all back, I assume they were just too afraid to get invovled.
Your Iran/Russia/China example has one problem, Iraq was a war of aggression done with little real reason from a strategic perspective (and was done more for political ones then anything else). A better example would be Afghanistan, which all three nations did support NATO intervention in.
That's something that I like about Babylon 5. Earth isn't the big kid on the block. They aren't the runt of the pack either. Solidly in the middle somewhere and everyone was afraid for their lives when it came to the Vorlons and Shadows. So different from the predictable slug matches between the Federation and the villain of the week in Star Trek. The other races in Babylon 5 had tangible things to gain or lose throughout the series and it affected their interactions with each other.
I'm sure Iran wasn't heartbroken about the toppling of Saddam Hussein as he was a major regional rival who they'd gone to war with in the 80's and was oppressing the majority Shia population (same sect of Islam practiced in Iran).
Ok bad example, my thought was that these guys could be in an "alliance" and not agree on everything all the time or even offer to help each other 90% of the time. And I still think the UN is an actual real world example of that.
I really like the context added to the Earth Minbari War by Lightning Count in is stories The Last Star and A Fighting Chance (which admittedly goes off canon, but a few of the early chapters can still fit canon, mostly). The way he interprets events the League DID move to aid the Earth Alliance, but were prevented from doing so by:
A - Some of them still hadn't managed to recover from the Dilgar War.
B - Some of those who had, notably the Brakiri, were all set to do it. When a Minbari War fleet jumped in on their home system and threatened them with annihilation if they got involved. After which they, reluctantly, backed down.
C - One race, the Drazi, ignored the Minbari and sent a battle fleet to Humanity's aid. Which MYSTERIOUSLY vanished in hyper space. Who knows how that happ- It was the Vorlons.
While much of this is not really supported in the actual show, I really like it as an explanation and thinks it fits.
Have you ever heard of the web site E.F.N.I. (Earth Force Naval Intelligence)? It has the BEST depiction of the Babylon 5 universe that I know of. Also, there is a REEEAL good breakdown of the Earth Minbari war as well as the other war during and mentioned in the series.
Non aligned worlds were like Belgium, insignificant in themselves, they are the doormat you have to walk over to get to the real enemy.
I think the league took the same approach as the Centauri. they didn't want to be the next ones targeted by the MInbari for siding against them. However, although I don't think it can be considered canon in anyway one RPG source book I have read stated that the Drazi did send forces to bolster the Earth Alliance but that none of them made it to human space and the Drazi decided against sending another force.
My takeaway from it was that League was trying to diplomacy (hence the thing that was attcked by centauri) but since that literarly blew up and knowing the Might of Minbari they cowered in fear hoping for it to go away without too much damage to their planets.
If you need somone so new to galactic politics as EA to save you from Dilgar and potencially are still amidst rebuilding post that conflict you might want to aboid pissing off somone whom has been withnessed defeating beings so powerfull that they were conssidered gods even milenia later. you know fear is powerfull.
I just watched this Lore, Big B5 Fan.. But, In the Movie B5: In the Begging, When the General was briefing the military about how the Minbari attacked deep range outpost, he said "They are leaving the Civilian Population alone for now" But, Later in the movie, Londo recounts how colonies of Humans were being attacked and they "Kissed their loved ones goodbye and leaped into the jaws of death". With that part, It seems that there was a "Mop Up" Infantry that followed behind the Main Space force. But that is my take.. Watch the two scenes for yourself and you decide.
As for the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, I think they were pulling parallels from the League of Nations from our own history.. Our League had good ideas and intentions but had no real Authority nor Power to enforce any international law. This might have been the problem with The League in B5..
There was no league before the war the Earth had alliances and trade agreements but the League was created to prevent what happened with Earth and Membar from happening again.
The Centauri also helped to a degree and the Narn helped not foir humanitarian but mercantile reasons.
It makes a certain amount of sense that completely other species that are older in terms of space travel wouldn't be interested in the affairs of other species simply due to there own species self interest, especially if going against a far more advanced species like the membari. Add in the fact that the other species lack of diversity in their own races. Plus the riggers of space-farring and space battle tactics. A Example is how the centari delt with the other species inhabiting their homeworld in centari history and the reaction that the grey consul had when finding out that a vast amount of there species are infact mixed with humans already. We honestly have no idea how other races in the universe will react to ours but given our own history it could go any number of ways.
I think that noone was willing to stick their heads up isn't all that surprising.
The League just came out of the Dilgar war that saw all of their militaries practically wiped out and many of their planets ravaged, some even entirely depopulated. And the way the Earth-Minbari-War was a completely one-sided slaughter from the very beginning was surely very intimidating to the other races.
On top of that the Humans were expanding their influence quite quickly and aggressively following the Dilgar War, which made some of the races weary of them.
Put those three together and it's easy to see why nobody was willing to risk angering the Minbari by directly aiding the Earth Alliance.
I don't remember it ever being mentioned whether other governments made any formal diplomatic protests to the Minbari government, but even if they did, it wouldn't have mattered at all to the Minbari, which is probably why it wasn't mentioned (Just like it's almost never mentioned that when Nazi-Germany invaded Austria, Mexico was the only country that put in an official protest).
Not only was this a Holy War to the Minbari, but the Minbari also had practically no contacts with any other species. With no trade or diplomatic ties the other raced wouldn't have had any way to put non-military pressure on the Minbari even if they wanted to.
The only space faring civilazation we know to have had (very) limited trade with the Minbari at that timeperiod were the Centauri, but then they as a species were a combination of cowards and opportunists. For them the risks of helping Mankind far outweight any potential benefit, as Londo pretty much outright said in the movie.
And the Narn were warprofiteers. They didn't help Earth in the war, they sold them overpriced weapons to make a profit. Sure G'Kar helped to make contact between Humans and Minbari to open negotiations, but that's the only non-profit intervention of the Narn in the war we know of.
In the first minute of your show it is as if you never watched B5 and as for rapping I kinda get a feeling you would enjoy a good ole fashion rapping.
The Minbari show the weapons as respect. The humans acted like humans, they wanted a war with Minbay, arrogance and bloodlust is humanity at its core. They shot first and wanted to confirm the answers they’ve already decided. This time they bit off more than they could chew.
Sure, mate.
The Non-aligned worlds is the equivalent to the League of Nations until our main characters came along and turn it into the UN.
I've often wondered about what would happen if, during a conflict like this, a new and greater threat (from another dimension or universe maybe), by coincidence and little interest in the conflict chose to invade and launch a genuinely unprovoked attack on both sides, how would the Humans react to seeing a formidable enemy fleet wiped out by these newcomers, who arrive on the cusp of a battle, as easily as the formidable enemy fleet wiping out a Human fleet... then immediately the newcomers then turn their guns the Human fleet, how might the Humans on Earth and the enemy race that had been fighting respond to this and what would the impact be..?
I would not be surprised to learn that several of the members of the League were preparing to, or even already, shield human refugees by hiding them among their own colonies. The may not have been willing to enter the war against the Mimbari, but rather they worked to hide away humans without alerting humanity's foe.
Then again, that's pure speculation.
It's also possible the religious caste were interested in war at that moment.
I believe Dukat was religious caste wasn't he?
Some of the other races would have done more than we saw in some way. Probably limited due to budget and time. You know the way that goes.So they weren't included beyond the Narn and Centauri.
I think humanity is special trope was a bit this feel from Trek, idealising the race. On other hand humanity was this one special hero that has a journey to take, walk to the adventure, battle the dark side, win and change.
Deep thought.
There were some inconsistencies, sadly most of them in this movie "In the Beginning" wich covers the war. On other hand movie had so many tie-ins with plots from first seasons that it was above fanservice.
The Narns really only helped to raise themselves within the galactic community having being owed big time by EA or hope that the Minbari would accuse the Centauri of aiding the humans thus attacking them that would release them as a threat to the Narns (almost Romulan like tactics there by a commander Tomalak if you ask me). The Narns had nothing to lose and everything to gain whatever the outcome. None of the other races in within the League would have benefited from interfering, remember Mulari's quote when being begged for help? It was probably the same sentiment across the board.
I could never take Delenn seriously after she started wearing her skull on top of her hair.
I'm pretty sure the League of Non-Aligned Worlds had a two-fold reason for not interfering.
1) Oh, so you poked the dragon, and want us, the farmers, to come and die with you...? Yeah, see, we didn't poke the dragon- that was kinda you. Now, we can maybe save some of your townpeople, but, yeah, no, we're not gonna piss off the dragon by throwing rocks at it with you.
2) Since, as far as we know, there were communication channels with most league worlds, I'm guessing that the Minbari were on a Holy War of Extermination was generally known- and the League was probably given a "stay out of our way or suffer their fate" ultimatum.
So, you have some guys who helped you out who fucked up big, pissed off the dragon, who also told you to stay back or you'd be crisped too. Not really honorable of the League members, but survival tends to trump that. (Also, was the EA even a member of the League?)
In my opinion the league was like a tiger with no teath still dangerous but no will to hunt or fight untill it is backed in to a corner
I think the non alliance world were trying to stay neutral. They could see where the minbir where coming from. I think they didn't want to pick sides. It was a no win situation for anyone caught in the middle.
Delenn is actually related to Valenn Dukat's last words were "There was aa reason for my selecton You are are child of Valenn"
.... that's the joke..
There is a problem with B5 writing that is they see aliens as a monolith. There are the humans, and then there are the aliens. The human sector on B5 and the alien sector. As if the aliens all have the same culture and all think alike.
They do try to vary it a bit, but for the sake of many of the plots, they DO often default to what tvtropes recurs to as Brain Bug or to Planet of Hats tropes.
B5 does suffer from planet of hats periodically, unfortunately. Not always, however, such as when it comes to Green vs Purple Drazi. Maybe a weak example, but definitely a favorite episode. But the planets having a single biome thing is silly and tired. Narn is a wasteland desert planet thanks to the Centauri. Centauri Prime is a green, luscious, and beautiful place. Minbar is a shiny chandelier, etc.
It's not only that but whenever something weird that's happening on B5. Garibaldi always goes "I don't know what's going on, but the aliens are freaked" or "All the aliens want to leave, they know something is coming". As if all the different aliens act in unison or something.
Ah, yea, forgot about that. I kinda want to chalk that up to humans' general inexperience with species other than themselves. Humans at that point had been interacting with alien species for less than a generation from what I can gather. This makes it pretty easy to lump all aliens in together as something different and weird versus humans that are experiencing something for the first time (probably). The different alien species (even some of the other younger ones) have been around the galaxy for a while already and it's not unlikely that they haven't had some shared freaky experiences that they've all come to be weary of. B5 is also a human-run station, so it's also easy, in that regard, to think of the station population as human and everyone else since humans have only known humans up until relatively recently. Humans = noobs.
For the no provocation: you need to go into the mindset of the mimbari for this, they are out of the reach for any other race in capabilities. They think differently, since for then difficulties are different. When a dog goes berserk and bites someone, we consider it happened without provocation, since we simply cannot think as simple as a dog think, for as shouting and moving threateningly is just normal, since we did not even consider the dogs presence for almost any of our actions. The mimbari managed to blind the humans with their sensors, like if an alien landing in 1950 would simply oversaturate the radios just by simply using it on their level of signal strength, and the humans would easily consider it as an early warning of a strike, since they would believe it as an intentional action, not an unexpected side effect.
The League didn't assist Earth because the Minbari scared them off, sending envoys to say that any race that got involved would suffer the same fate as the Humans.
The Darzi sent a fleet anyway. The fleet disappeared. They believed it to have been attacked and destroyed in hyperspace.
is that from any specific resource?
In B5 every race has a hat. Communities is humans' and it is shown and not just told sometimes.
It is really shown throughout the series that if it wasn't for Earth and to an extent the other major empires (Minbari, Centauri and Narn which the humans really brought together as well) that the League will just fall apart and right back onto its self. Also often shown that the League has no backbone, almost never doing anything unless one of the four big powers did it first and with overwhelming success. I think in some ways it is great writing, it makes humans vital while not making them the only ones that can save the day because you need all the races. This allows the ego fix that some viewers might need as humans wanting to see humans be the most important and on top while actually balancing things making every member of league/major empires just as vital and needed. (I hope this makes sense, I know what I am trying to say but have trouble articulating it. It just goes with and yet against the trope at the same time of the humans being the only ones that can save the galaxy, which to me is good writing anyways.)
I get what you're talking about. The best example of this in the show was how the coalition to fight the Shadows really hinged on the war ravaged and badly beaten Narn military to start to come together, which Sheridan and G'Kar realized and no one else did and the amount of effort it took to finally bring them in.
Comparing the other races, and watching them during the shadow war especially the early parts of it. They were very self focused, not wanting help from other races, nor giving help to others as well. The Narn were selling goods at an inflated price to to earth, they weren't helping Earth to save earth, just selling weapons for their own needs. The Centari were still interested in conquering races to grow, not incorporating them in their own communities. What Earth did was make something where they themselves didn't have excessive power over the other races in order to keep them at the table and talking and learning form each other. Building a community not conquering and becoming masters. When the other races learned how to deal with concept they were an increadable fighting force, that older races wouldn't be able to fight against, even with a millions of years of advancements. Because the races are fighting against a common cause, not just the same enemy.
Here's my 2 cents on Delenns statement about humanity vs other species. If all of the species were all Kumbaya with each other (on there planet not with other aliens), then they were and had always been 1 people so diversity wouldn't have existed. Not so with humans, we don't like shit that's different we fear it. To overcome that we had to learn diplomacy and learn to live with each other whereas perhaps we were the odd balls. IDK
There are a lot of things that have always bothered me about the Minbari and the Earth-Minbari War story arc. For such an advanced, disciplined and deeply spirituals race with an honor code, they basically threw a big hissy fit and started acting like a bunch of genocidal space nazi psycho fanatics. They really should be a pariah state of that universe. Also, considering how overmatched they were against the EA, it doesn't make sense that it took them two years to get to Earth, no matter how hard the Humans fought. They would've run of military targets outside of Sol very quickly with hyperspace travel involved and a large fleet of nearly-unstoppable ships. Their stealth systems never made much sense to me either. Jankowski's ships could clearly see their vessels as silhouettes. There's no reason as to why you wouldn't be able to target such silhouettes. Plus, their obviously used active sensors and you can home in on and target those too. Basically, if you detect enemies presence in some way, you can target them. Their more believable advantages were their much more precise jump engines, anti-gravity tech and long-range DEW weapons. The gravitic tech alone would make their ships infinitely more maneuverable and faster to accelerate and decelerate. Basically, it would be like modern ships vs sail ones. You'd be able to control and ultimately dominate every engagement at any time, even if the enemy was able to hurt your ships with their weapons from some range. Plus, the Earth weaponry all involved some kind of projectiles, be they kinetic or plasma, while Minbari DEW beams hit at the speed of light from apparently long ranges and couldn't be intercepted. Basically, the only way this thing should have lasted two years was if the Minbari tried to occupy EA worlds. A simple war of extermination against such a woefully technological inferior foe - no way. Imagine if, after the 9/11 Attacks, the US decided to exterminate Afghanistan instead of invading and occupying it. There would've been grave consequences involved as far as the standing in the international community but the operation wouldn't take very long at all, even if nuclear weapons were not involved. The technological and firepower advantage is simply too great.
They saw their silhouettes because the Minbari weren't actively jamming them yet so they were able to use their computers to calculate a firing solution that would hit them, and they did hit them remember? That was the only time they ever could.
In normal battle conditions the Minbari rendered their computers unable to calculate effective targeting solutions. Remember they are thousands of kms apart. Point and shoot on targets even as big as a planet can miss from that range with only miniscule degrees of inaccuracy.
You are basically asking Space Swiss why they never take sides when they can avoid it. I guess Tarkin's doctrine just works better in Babylon 5's setting.
I think jms just sort of forgot they existed. Remember, the e/m war had been gestating in his mind for years at that point, and the pilot was filmed a year before the series, so that history was largely set. The Dilgar war wasn't introduced until more than halfway through season 1, and it was a retcon to (a) say there was a big war 20 years earlier that nobody had mentioned and (b) say that this is what led to the rise of the league. So jms mostly just ignored it when it interfered with his vision of the e/m war
Great review as always! Never really appreciated Babylon 5 when I was younger. I started to watch the series over again and the stories are good. Whether or not the Minbari had the weapons on hot, the Earth vessels should have not fired until they were fired upon. The Earth vessels could have left their weapons on hot as well until a response was received. Very bad first contact.
It is my opinion that the Non-Aligned Worlds, after seeing what the Minbari were doing to the 'strongest' of them, acted out of a sense of self preservation. 'I don't want to piss of the Minbari and get fucked up, so I'll just watch.