Babylon 5 Lore : Minbari Federation - Vulcan Ascendancy Reimagined
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2018
- What's up Lore Masters,
Let's discuss the Minbari Federation and what everything involved..
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3:57 "Nor any attempt to begin a dialogue"
This is false. The Captain of the Prometheus, before ordering his fleet to fire on the Minbari, also ordered communications be sent to the Minbari to try to get them to back off; i.e. "Tell them we mean no harm!". The Minbari RECEIVED this communication, but failed to translate it and kept closing with the Earth Force ships while jamming them with their scanners.
Umm, it's wasn't just that the Minbari had their gun ports open... it was that the Minbari scanners were so powerful that they disabled the Earth Force jump engines. The humans didn't know what was going on and, upon seeing that the Minbari ships were approaching with open gun ports... well, they panicked.
I'll be doing a battle break down of the entire event..its going to be interesting
The Minbari hello was the Burglar's Hello, or the Pirate's Hello, therefore Earthforce acted predictably.
Oh Babylon 5 Battle Breakdowns are gonna be fun. You actually see the combat, as opposed to being told what's happening from the bridge. Can't wait for when you do the battles from Severed Dreams, Shadow Dancing and Into The Fire.
Yeah, and if you watch the scene the 1st Officer says that the Minbari ships are presumed hostile because their "weapons are hot", meaning that the gun ports weren't just opened, the weapons were actually charged and ready to fire. Pretty stupid way to make first contact.
The scanners were so powerful, and acted like quasi jammers he had no idea what the weapons were doing. All he knew was the ports were open. Couple that with the fact your sensors are basically jammed, it reads like a hostile action.
That being said, given it was a first contact situation an attempt at communication should have occured.
I like that the Minbari are a bit "confusing" and contradictory. It's like that one episode when Lenier tells Marcus that he just doesn't get it in so many words. "We may look like you, but we are not like you."
You gotta give it to Walter Koenig. He created two memorable characters in two different sci fi franchises.
He was also a fairly prolific sci-fi writer in his own right, being one of the main script writers on 70's cheese fest Land of the Lost, which was pretty famous for having really great story, despite its cheap as chips production values
oh please we handled the dilgar we can handle the minbari
"Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you."
Yessss he did give em fair warning
Arrogance and stupidity sure tend to build on each other.
"Should we open fire, sir?"
"Absolutely. What could possibly go wrong?"
(Five minutes later)
"To answer your question, sir, everything has gone wrong."
"Well, how could _I_ have known that their primary weapons could cut the ship in half?!"
"Those were their secondary weapons, Captain."
They didn't handle them EA was losing. The centauri entered the war easily defeating the dilger and EA took credit for the victory over a fleet the centauri defeated. The pre shadow war norn fleet would've defeated earth force. Their arrogance and years of centauri protection lead them into the minbari war
I am enormously supportive of you making Bab 5 content. Can't wait until (or if) you get into things like the Centauri/Narn conflict, or the Garabaldi/Psycorps conflict
I'm going to try to get into all of it
Garibaldi has the best moments of any Human... G'Kar, however, gets the Best Alien Award.
@@Deridus and lando of course
Well... Londo gets Best Patriot Award... his "All I ever wanted was to serve my people" line hits more powerfully than most.
@@LoreReloaded
Believe me it's worth it. 👍
The starfire wheel was originally designed to settle disputes between casts before valen unified the minibari
I disagree with you metaphor, the Minbari hello is walking showing your hidden gun not loaded, essentially here is my weapon, as you can see it’s not loaded
This flew over a lot of peoples head
except there was nothing really indicating that it wasn't loaded.
Here's how the starfire wheel works. After a war, the leader with the highest 'purpose' would stay in the wheel the longest and his/her clan would rule, regardless of whether they won the war (which of course the warrior caste would most of the time because they have all the training and most weapons). If you (as the leader of your clan) knew you were going to die at the end of the war, you would need a darn good reason to start a war in the first place - you are literally be putting the needs of everyone else before your own life. Even greater reason to not start an unnecessary war - you clan might not even rule in the end! Quite a clever mechanism.
I disagree the Mibari Hello (great name) was similar to meeting a stranger and saying ‘’These are my weapons, this is not a threat but I am not helpless nor do I intend to deceive you.’’ While this may be a little off putting I can understand the sentiment of not concealing weapons. It reminds me of two knights shaking hands and clutching each others wrists to check for hidden daggers. It wasn’t a threat it was ‘’I have nothing up my sleeves.’’
The thing that put me off the Minbari is how they were holding us back from having a warp 5-capable jump gate.
To be fair, Humans are the only race the Minbari can't "define" (read: stereotype). They have the arrogance of Vorlons, the stubborn pride of Centauri. One moment, they're as driven by their emotions as Narn, and the next, they confound by suddenly embracing Minbari rangers.
Brilliant.
captmoroni sounds like they can be defined then as versatile.
Amaranth 🤣🤣🤣
I don’t believe that there is a speed rating in jump gates
I figured the minbari tradition of open gun ports struck me as like when a cop or soldier goes into an unknown area with their guns in plain view, if you are an innocent bystander, then you should be good; but if you intend trouble, you should be smart enough to change your mind when you see them packing.
If I remember correctly, use of the Starfire Wheel came about specifically as a way to avoid the actual war part of conflict, with the leaders of the opposing clans choosing to settle things one-on-one, showing the value of their claims/positions through their commitment under the pain of the Wheel, even unto death.
everything I read and the clips I watched, indicate that it could be used either during or at the end of the war.. I've not seen any reference to it being used before - but i'm open to being wrong.
I always introduce myself to new neighbors by bursting through their front door with a shotgun pointed at their heads. I've had lots of new neighbors, 7 in the last six months and none of them have complained. Apparently there is a crazy guy in the neighborhood (although I have never had any issues with this 'crazy' guy) so the rent is super low.
4:11 What happened in the war? Peter Jurasik gave one of the finest soliloquies in the entirety of Babylon 5, and that Christopher Franke could write an absolutely haunting piece of music.
"The humans, I think, knew they were doomed..."
The gun ports open greeting is very similar to medieval Japanese traditions of showing your weapon at a greeting as a sign of respect
Well in modern days I feel like citing that as an example to justify a gun to the head wont work :p
To be fair this was addressed in the show at some point. Even with Delenn (at least im pretty sure it was her) realizing what was about the happen a moment before it did, almost chastising the dude that told her they were approaching the earth fleet with gun ports open "as is tradition".
The handshake is also in this tradition to show you have no weapons.
Don't forget the Mimbari were isolationist. They hadn't had a first contact in living memory. The warriors assumed everybody understood their traditions and never considered others may have different views
@@mattwho81 it just now occurs to me that the Centauri, having had dealing with the Mimbari in the past, would have had records of the tradition.
Supposing that they didn't loose it due to buerocratic incompetence, that means they caused the war by choosing to withhold that information.
I always hated the Warrior Caste. They hated Sheridan for doing the same thing they would've done. They are PoS hypocrites.
John 'nuke em' Sheridan. And he had the balls to refuse to apologize.
"HOW DARE THOSE FILTHY DISHONOURABLE HUMANS TRICK US WITH A FAKE DISTRESS CALL?!? THATS *OUR* LEGITIMATE STRATEGY, THEY CANT USE IT, *WE'RE* SUPPOSED TO WIN!!!"
@@weldonwin
Now where's my bottle
Says the minbari warrior 😉👍 lol
The Mimbari Warrior caste are the worst toxic cunts in all of science fiction. They go on a genocidal rampage against a civilisation that at least 2000 years behind them technologically and then have the nerve to throw a tantrum about honour, when they get outsmarted. To say nothing of them being lured into that trap, because they were coming to destroy a crippled ship and slaughter what they thought was a helpless opponent.
@@weldonwin
Exactly. The warrior caste were really cowards
2:50 Um...actually all three castes were self-governing and had their own militaries, police, etc. This is not unlike the caste system as sometimes practiced in the history of the Indian Subcontinent. 3:40 No. The Earthships warships were at the edges of Minbari Territory. The Captain freaked in no small part because he thought he'd be undetected AND Minbari scanners jammed his sensors. To the Minbari warrior caste, this was like approaching a stranger after unsheathing their swords and holding daid weapons to their sides. Yeah, this was a BIG mistake! 5:00 Your efforts to shoehorn the Minbari into Vulcans doesn't really work. There's no hint the Minbari were any more violent than other races, unlike the Vulcans. But their culture seems more a mix of Samurai, Buddhist and Ancient Egyptian in most ways. 5:41 That happened once, and was evidently done by a vote of the entire Gray Council, indicating the members of the Worker Caste supported the Warriors. 6:30 Communism? That is what you get from this? Sorry where do you get that? And it bears repeating--the castes are self-governing. The Gray Council exists to help settle issues between the Castes.
I am a huge BABLYON 5 fan and glad to get your perspective on this!
So your first point may be something of semantics ... It is possible for both of us to be right. The Council handled federal affairs (Thus the federation part) and the castes kept to their own. Is your problem with this my analogy? I will grant my analogy has the Minbari walking in but if we reverse it - it's no better. I walk to the edge of your lawn and you put a shotgun to my head..doesn't make it any better. - To your points with 5:00.. I disagree. The Minbari would fight war after war after war and then get a device that used /radiation/ on their own leaders in a game to who comes out last. Now maybe we have different views of how violence works but I think it's apt. 5:41 - It did happen once, agreed.. 6:30 - a Joke. I appreciate your feedback and will look a bit more into it and do any corrections if I feel warranted ;)
I normally enjoy your videos but the repeated Vulcan references was both annoying and comes across as if you think they are ripping off Trek. From reading some of your comments it doesn't seem like that's what you think or your intention but I really think you overdid it and it was distracting. It also comes across as a bit of click bait, let's rile up the B5 fans who are going to get upset if the show they love is accused of plagiarism even if you didn't intend it to.
Hopefully the rest of the series will be you usual quality.
Mark Antill they are more accurately described as a mix of Klingon and Vulcan with a dose of Bajoran religious fervor to spice it plus a more extensive back history. The plagiarism that exists between Star Trek and Babylon 5 is that generally speaking the overarching premise and story of DS9 came from the story they had in hand for a year detailing B5
if you need to cite more than two races then you just seek similarities to describe them, not compare them aka they are unlike any of the Star Trek races in their dualism, complexity and internal turmoil.
Was kinda my point..... those things put in the same place would have active differently..... the Minbari are all of them but none. Three casts, three languages, each clan within the casts with its own traditions and rituals for marriage to funeral vary for more reasons than I know of. There are tastes of each of those races in the Minbari, but not all in one caste and never all at once.
They are more like elves than vulcans.
Ironically, DS9 ripped off B5, but B5 aired later, which make it look like B5 was the rip off...
2:36 The thousand year peace that only lasted 900 years sounds similar to the European 100 year war which actually lasted about 120 years.
I thought the star fire wheel was for when two armies fought with no clear victor. The Mimbari understood leaders often ask other to sacrifice and die but won't do the same themselves. This way the leaders genuine had to belief in their cause (or that they would win outright) before starting a war, else they risked facing the wheel themselves
Best Quote Ever..."The only human to survive combat with the Mimbari is behind me. You are before me. if you value your live Be Elsewhere." Or something like that. Runner up would be "Can anybody hear me!?" "I can hear you! Hehehe."
Humans learned a painful lesson from the Minbari--if you mess with the bull, you get the horns. Or the back-of-the-head-ridges.
Actually, just to point out, the Minbari approaching with the gunports open isn't really like someone breaking into your house with a shotgun, but more like when an animal raises its hackles or bares its teeth. Basically a 'don't mess with me, you're gonna get hurt' type deal. That said, it was realized too late that it was a mistake (this can be blamed on the Minbari's own isolationist policy), coupled with the fact that the Earthforce captain was a trigger happy idiot. But, good video overall! Looking forward to more.
I watched the entire scene and read a few different resources. For me, it really seems like what i described - we may just disagree on this point..though I am glad you enjoyed it.
Even the Minbari leader Dukhat was shocked that they were approaching an Earth vessel with gun ports open. He told them to stop but it was too late as the shooting started soon after.
Actually it was the other way around! The Minbari "fleet" was at the outer edge of their space and the Humans were the ones who have been trespassing. So it's more like: you jumped in someone's backyard and the owner met you with a shotgun!
The Minbari greeting people with their gun ports open is not unlike humans showing their teeth when smiling. To most other animals that is a clear sign of aggression.
SiyraKitsune ,No it's more like being in Florida and having some nut come up to you in BK brandishing a open firearm. What do you think immediately? It was understandable...but there should have neen more hailing. ..
hmmm ... from the Episode with the Starfire wheel, Delenn hints at the history of the place and everything changed there because the leaders where asked to risk their own lives instead of just sending in the young ones to die. The way she speaks those lines always let me to believe that it was a later addition to the culture. Beforehand, wars would be fought like normal, but at some time the Starfire wheel got introduced where the ritual was included and, "strangely" enough the civil wars become less frequent after that until they ceased. Ofcourse thats just my interpretation of those scenes, but i got the feeling that the temple and the starfire wheel brought an end to their civil wars just because leaders now had to suffer as well and began trying to work things out before going to war.
I think the Minbari are more akin to the elves from The Lord Of The Rings. The marriage of John Sherid and Delenn is a parallel to the marriage of Aragorn the King of Gondor and Lady Arwen of the Rivendell Elves.
I am definitely enjoying these B5 videos.
The minbari say hello while waving a flashlight in your face and pointing a gun at you
Given that Sinclair/Valen GAVE the Minbari the completed Babylon 4 station 1000 years earlier , HOW THE BLOODY HELL , did the Minbari NOT recognize the language the humans hailed them in or the design of Earthforce ships?
Damned Bone heads had been given Earth's greatest technological construction (greater than B5- which still wouldn't be completed for another 9 years) It's ridiculous that with their advanced computers , they would have nothing on file similar , to the hails they were receiving.
AFAIK is it a naval tradition of the age of sail to open all your gunports if you are saluting a dignitary of a foreign country.
It's pretty ridiculous that you could have a giant space empire that approaches people with weapons drawn and never discover that other species find that a bit intimidating. You'd think someone would mention it.
If it weren't for Sinclair I mean Valen then the Minbari wouldn't have survived at all.
The Minbari are a cross of Romulans and Klingons as far as I can tell.
Face Palm.
Vulcans and klingons maybe
The gunports thing is more akin to openly wearing a pistol on your belt while walking up to someone and saluting them. The gesture is meant to show respect and openness (basically "we're not hiding anything, as you can see by the fact that all of our weapons are plainly visible"). The problem was that their scanners were so powerful, they were causing interference with the human's systems, in particular their jump drives.
no it is not, it is like me walking up to you with a gun pointed at your head, people can and will defend themselves, and anyone who does that deserves to die, the captain was completely justified in firing first, it is entirely the minbari's fault they should know fucking better than to point weapons at ships for no fucking reason
Peace is a relatively nebulous term with the Mimbari. They could attack a member of the "lesser races" once a month and they would be at peace as interpreted by the Grey Council as no Mimbari were warring with one another. One more thing, what is it with the vast majority of sci-fi races with the exception of humans and Klingons having a name that it's just a modification of the name of their home world? Humans being from Earth and Klingons being from Kronos the only exception tends to be when Earth is referred to as Terra in which case humans would be referred to as Terrans. Another thing I'd like to know is why do Mimbari warships look like sunfish?
That's an interesting point. If they were only referred to as Terran's, you wouldn't know they were humans. Is that what's going on with these other races~?
Rick Logan I think it would've been funny if an Alien from one of these shows thought Humans were from the planet Hume.
Sounds about right.
I've heard sometimes the the common term "Earthlings" and even the less common " Earthers" used on some shows and I think even in B5 a few times. But in general the OP is correct...
Mike Vasquez Protoss and Aiur, Unggoy and Balaho, and that’s all I can remember now lmao.
Probably because the vorlons looked biological so the minbari ships also had to look biological to show their technological advantage compared to the other younger races?
Did you seriously just suggest that we should watch the entire series of Babylon 5 before watching you seven minute and fifty one second video. Damn, I like your style. Of course, you're completely correct. Time to fall in love with Mira Furlan again.
At the end of the Civil War the Workers weren't given five seats, they were given four, with Religious and Warrior each getting two, and one seat being left deliberately open awaitiing for the reincarnation of Neroon.
So glad to see this show it's not totally forgotten. I would love to see a dark & gritty reboot in a style similar to the BSG reboot. Perhaps even more adult, or even with JMS's _original_ plan. Although, stories can become much improved upon reflection over time ─ plus there were admitted improvements forced by real world events. Nevertheless, I think he could do an even better job now.
According to old naval traditions, and we know all these old scifi shows love their old naval traditions, approaching with gunports open did not mean peaceful intent, but rather an intent to do battle.
Also, I don't like how all the humans treated the Minbari on the station. Hey, you just waged an offensive war of extermination against my people and nearly succeeded. Let's obviously be friends. That's obviously how it would happen in real life.
But for the warrior caste, it meant I am showing you all my weapons, I have nothing to hide.
@@rlj151 Maybe, but it was naive and foolish of them to not understand it would mean hostile intent to other races. If you want to open dialogue, you don't have your gunports open.
Well People have noted.. Interestingly..that it was just an all and all bad situation.. The sensors of the minbari overpowered the Earth Alliance ships, their gunports were open, and neither side could talk to eachother.. From start to finish .. a bad day..
I think you have it backwards. The humans were in the Mimbari region, they were unaware of the customs of the territory they were in. You must conform to the customs of the region you are in, not the other way around.
Where they aware of Minbary customs then. If not then its the xenos who fucked up.
Technically it's the merchant class that rules over the warriors and religious today.
I subbed for B5. Thanks for the memories. I may re-watch.
As badly as humanity did fighting the Minbari, Earth Force did not relent. Londo voiced his admiration for their resolve. Insurmountable odds and yet they refused to lie down and die without a fight.
@Meanie Panini I remember that. I guess it was fair to wonder in such a lopsided conflict. But examples like Sheridan nuking the Black Star changed that way of thinking, drastically.
Nice series. When you start the video saying to watch the first video linked in the description or in the corner I don’t see either on mobile. In addition finding the playlist on mobile isn’t the easiest had to go through several things. Look forward to seeing more of your content.
The star fire wheel, determined if the Leader was willing to die for his people, or did he just wanted power for himself. Wars are filled with leaders or generals willing to send others to die for what they want, or goals.
Because shining a giant laser into a new alien race's sensors/Eyes/vision/communication is not the smartest cause of action (Queue the Mimbari Gun ports open). Might as well just keep shouting on all communication frequencies continuously.
And it was confirmed that weapons can be made ready on standby, plus Mimbari were meant to be more advanced and enlightened. Diplomacy would or should have been their prime achievement, but they act very primitive, caution doesn't come close to what they attempted. If anything they became reckless or careless with their first contact with Earth Alliance. If they wanted to contact EA willing or not (They should have done more research before hand and done so. )
The explanation you're looking for on the starfire wheel is that they didn't do that before or after having a war, it replaced war as a means of choosing leadership, essentially rather than having a war the leaders or champions of the castes would step into the circle, whichever one stayed in the longest won the right for their caste to lead. They stared doing that because they decided that it was both lest wasteful and more fitting that the leaders sacrifice for the cause than making everyone else do it.
If Am Correct the Minbari never participated in the First Shadow War, that War Involve several First Ones. It Was the Last Shadow War the Minbari got involve in, by that point the other First Ones stop involving themselves other than the Vorlons whom were one of the reasons for the War to began. They should do a Prequel B4
Humans saw the ships approaching with gun ports open and then with appeared to be strong EM scrambling the Earth Alliance ships sensors, assuming (logically) this was a prelude to an attack they opened fire.
This led to the war that only ended when a sole intrepid class starship appeared, was fired on by Minbari, retaliated .. then proceeded to destroy the Min'bari fleet and hold the surviving humans hostage until their demands were met .. upon receiving several tons of coffee and a working gelato machine plus supplies they disappeared whence they came, and thus ended the Battle of the line.
Moments later humanity was devestated to find out that a stray min'bari fighter had crashed into the only factory still making gelato machines. With all previous stocks destroyed during the war the humans faced a desperate gelato deprived future.
The truth the EA Govt. doesn't what YOU to know! they are out there, with our coffee, and the only surviving gelato machine, where did they come from? and where did they go?
The Humans never destroyed any Minbari Ships in that opening battle, they severely damaged them and killing their chosen one, and then only because the Minbari were not prepared for a fight, rather they were trying to make first contact with the strange newcomers to their territory.The Grey Council's ensuing vote for war, emotionally supported by the newly appointed Satai, Delenn set forth a chain of events that turned the Minbari retaliation against the humans into a holy war.
Yeah, the worker caste got the short end of the stick at first...
and then rocked it out
They went from non-citizens to second class citizens...not great but better.
Mimbari are the Vulcans/Asari/Techno-Logic race of every other scifi setting.
Bursting into your house with a shotgun pointed at your head? Not quite. More like, humans jump out of the bushes with a gun, the Minbari don’t put their guns down, and so the humans open fire.
My only comment is this.
It was not just earth freaking out and opening fire.
The Minbari scanners had overloaded the Earth jump engines.
And I’m sure you know but to be clear. Earth did try to say “We mean no harm”.
I’m not defending the Earth being there. The mission was ill conceived from the beginning.
Earth Should’ve listened to the Centari
The starfire wheel, is and was very important. To prove that you loved the people more than you loved the power behind ruling the people. The respective leaders, went into the wheel. And the One that stayed the longest, would be crowned, as the ruler, and that Caste, would make the laws, and bring the Minbari into the future. All of which was changed, Once Valen, came to the Minbari 1000 years ago, and brought together all three Castes, and began the Grey Council. So when Delenn broke the Council, She had no other options, but to go back to the Starfire Wheel, to prove to the Minbari People, that she was fit to rule over the People. And when the other Captain, forgive me for forgetting his name. Tossed her out, and proclaimed her to be the true leader, by declaring himself to be of the Religious Caste. It enabled, Delenn to reform the Grey Council.
None of which would have been possible. When the Warrior Caste began its civil war to take control of power on Minbar, There was no options for Delenn but to surrender, to the Warrior Caste, in order to end the civil war. Their laws demanded a winner and a loser. She allowed that to happen. The mistake the Warrior Caste Leader made, was in not realizing that Delenn was never about the Power she had been granted, She was always only ever trying to help her people move forward, after the war with the humans. At great personal cost to herself, and her rank as a Grey Council member. She exiled herself from her home world, when she married a human. And it was only when the Religious Caste renamed her their leader, that she was allowed to return home.
If Delenn had just left the starfire wheel after the Leader of the Warrior Caste did. There would have remained the question of her motives, to remain in the Wheel longer than the Warrior did. By remaining in the Wheel, and choosing to let it end her life, she proved, she never did seek out Power for the sake of power. And ensured, the Religious caste would form the next government. Leniere, would have followed Delenn's instructions, to reform the Grey Council. Giving the Warrior and Religious Caste, 2 each of the positions, and the remaining positions to the Builder Caste, So that the Religious caste and Warrior Castes, would never again, be able to call for war. As it was the Religious Caste, that called the war against the Humans, and the Warrior Caste, that created the Civil War against the Religious Caste. Now their Castes, remain proud, and true, and are left in a position to advise, and serve their people. The Builders, they have never sought power for the sake of power, They want only to build, their buildings. Their societies, that is what the Builders do. They make the ships that transport the Warriors, and they make the temples that The Religious castes live within.
The similarities between the Minbari and the Vulcans is uncanny. As is also how both races seem to borrow a lot from the elves of Middle Earth as well.
Ooh, also, the 'weapon ports open' thing was to show that they were not charged or targeted at the other ship, because everyone in the universe knew that the Minbari were powerful, and it was a sign they didn't see you as an enemy. The Earth ship couldn't tell that with their sensors, didn't know the Minbari culture, and thought GUNS, kill em all.
6:30 The worker caste got 4 members and not five. 2 members went to religious and 2 members went to military. 1 was reserved randomly.
I loved your explanation of how the humans and minbari ships met up. Roflmao
I always was confused about the Minbari cast system. Why was it always so important for putting casts on fellow Minbari even if they had no broken bones? It doesn't make any sense!
🤣🤣🤣
James, loved this video & your EA video... I showed them to Jess, my other half & she is slowly getting into B5... Something I couldn't do because I am too much of a fanboy of B5. Thank you...
I would love to know more about the Minbari protectorates, if you could be so kind oh great Master of the Lore. That would be wonderful.
People can say what they want about the Minbari's misguided custom of approaching newcomers while brandishing arms, fact is that Earth was given the advice to approach the Minbari with one single, unarmed ship. Instead they sent a heavily armed flotilla helmed by a man known for being unstable to apparently intimidate the Minbari into diplomatic relations. That's no different from one nation trying to initiate diplomatic contact by moving an entire tank division across the border. The Minbari could have easily taken that as a hostile invasion and fired upon humanity at once and I wouldn't even fault them for it.
Just realized the Protoss are kinda a rip off of the Vulcans too:
Ancient Race with telepathic powers who warred heavily with each other until a wise sage(Khas) changed their culture and made them into a united people. Like the Minbari, they even had a caste system. The key difference is that while both the Vulcans and Protoss had rebels the split off and formed their own society, becoming dark versions of them, the Dark Templar didnt become an evil Empire like the ROmulans did, and instead just became "edgy" Protoss. The "evil" Protoss were instead a clan that was taken by a dark god to be his servants just before the Protoss fell into their Aeon of Strife.
I just don't see the vulcan connection at all if your gonna just try and compare star trek to Babylon 5 please don't continue this series Babylon 5 is a rich and amazing story that's deserves to be approached as its own thing not just a star trek clone which it never was
I'm going to compare when I see things..if i dont.. then I wont.
+Lore Reloaded well you will do it without a viewer besides its sad you have no original ideas yourself,you have to compare races that aren't comparable and the only video of yours I've really enjoyed was the pimp hand one you outright stole from sci fi debris
Nah.. I just stole a joke from him..but it sounds like it's not the channel for you..seeya :)
+Lore Reloaded you stole a joke and made a entire episode out of it you hack get a original thought in your head but I won't be watching you f up another beloved series
+Arty Mixon and you only admitted to being a thief after you were called out on it you were honestly straight out stealing from someone and would have never admitted to it on your own
I always thought of the Minbari as the Klingons crossed with the Vulcans with some Indian influence thrown in for good measure.
i love you mentiona "mimbari/romulan nature" and shows a pic of Sasha Grey from the "this aint startrek" pr0n movie, in which she plays a Vulcan. :D
Well in the video (3.58 to be exact) - you said that there was no attempt of diplomatic solution - But there is a scene that sheds some more light onto this -> in the spin off movie of B5 -"In the beginning" there was a scene when one of the grey counciil talks to Dukat after detecting the earth scout force - saying we dont understand their language - and he pointed out they are coming to meet them with the gun ports open as traditional gesture of strength and respect an -Dukat exclamied "by whose orders ?" then the other gray one said - they can see our weapons so we are coming at them open handed (aka not concealing anything). -> So the humans DID try to establish contact prior to firing - but that didnt help them much. Threre was even a scene in the movie - when captain of the scout fleet says -soon after the scout fleet engines went dead -and the minbari fleet turned towards them - smth along the line "tell them we mean no harm" -> And since they saw potential enemy ships coming at them with gunports open, their jump drives shut down, sensors being jammed (unintentionally but still), and without a response to attempted communications - they assummed they are going to be attacked - and the crap unfolded from that situation soon after.
I discuss this
Hey Lore Reloaded loved B5 thanks for doing it. As much a B5 fan as a Trek fan. The one thing important i feel you left out of this otherwise great job. You should have made mention of the capture of Sinclair and Delenn discovering that humans had Minbari Souls. This is why she immediately called all Minbari to surrender. She realized they and humans were kindred souls. With them being highly religious it was a very big deal.
That's going to be apart of the earth-minbari war video.. this was more just an overview of events..
@@LoreReloaded look forward to it.
If I remember the star fire wheel had fallen out of use and could only be triggered in special circumstances
Who was the Vulcan fox?
Absolute truth?
The minbari found Future Space Jesus and realized that for some odd reason he was not one of them and that he had to go into a cocoon and then go back in time and then become the Original Space Jesus...
Yeah. Kinda convoluted. But bear with me its all legit.
I always felt sorry for Michael Yorks character as the man who fired the first shot and the consequences it had. Both in terms of blood and his mental health
There IS a CANON connection between the Star Trek and B5 universes. Ivanova comments that Sheridan is about "to go where every man has gone before." This clearly indicates that Star Trek exists as a culturally relevant television show.
Cmdr. Susan Ivanova in s02e14: "We are not some deep space franchise!"
The star wheel was for disputes to be settled between the casts
first of all i appreciate that you make videos of b5 its a fantastic sci fi show and you have an interessting approach in your videos. so go for it.
what irritates me is your vulcan and mimbari comparision. in my opinion they are very different. if you call them the b5 vulcans, than ds9 is a b5 rip off. bayorans are more like mimbari.
but please continue with your videos have a nice one
I saw the Minbari as Vulcan analogues too however I loved the prescience of their ancient and mysterious wisdom little knowing where it came from at first. I mostly enjoyed the fact that their culture and technology weren't nullified by the homogenous effects of a sprawling entity like the Federation and they were clearly more advanced and powerful.
I love the snarky in this old videos!
I'm a little confused, are you suggesting B5 ripped off the Vulcans to make the Minbari? If anything Minbari are more like the Bajorans (which is really funny considering how Star Trek DS9 literally stole the B5 Bible and used it to make their own show and got taken to court over it).
They remind me a lot like vulcans.. I dont think they were stolen
Eh I really don't see the Vulcan connection tbh. I would argue that the Clan, Religious, and Warrior elements are much more like what we see in DS9's Bajor than anything in Vulcan or Romulus.
Could you clarify the "I don't think they were stolen" remark?
I dont think they were plagiarized or made to be like vulcans on purpose. I just see similarities and they remind me of such
Ah ok, I wasn't sure if you meant ST:DS9 didn't plagiarize B5.
Live and let live on the Minbari/Vulcan vs Minbari/Bajoran connections.
Sure, to each their own ;) You may be more right than me, who knows..
The Minbari Federation... abstains.
Your videos are good to provide an entry level understanding for those who want to visit this brilliant series but maybe it would be easier to watch with a few less Star Trek references, I love both shows but by the third insinuation that the Minbari are Vulcan rip offs my eyeballs were rolling so hard I was getting eye strain lol.JMS has always stated that his biggest fictional inspiration for the overall story arc was Lord of the rings not Star Trek, the Minbari are more akin to the Elven race in LOTR as they remain isolated from other races, they are powerful warriors but also very spiritual. JMS also took inspiration from the legends of the nights of the round table, this is why he had an episode featuring someone who believed they were the reincarnation of King Arthur.At the time of the story conception he was actually working on two stories when he realised that the fitted perfectly together to create one show which became B5.
Fair. I don't know that I will stop analogies whole sale, but not to this level again.
I've got nothing against comparing the two shows as they're both in the sci fi genre but if any analogy is used too much it can get tiresome.
I was hooked from the first episode I saw, I had just watched a very boring ST episode (the one with Picard & Wesley stuck on a desert planet trying to get water from behind a force field, I can't remember the name). I channel hopped & caught the last 10 minutes of the B5 episode soul hunter, the episode was dark & gritty & ended with a question, that blew my mind after years of ST hitting the reset button at the end of each episode, the prospect of a sci-fi show with an ongoing story blew my mind.
If you do an episode about Sinclair then I recommend reading the book "to dream in the city of sorrows". JMS wanted to tie up lose ends in Sinclairs story arc but due to the actors mental health issues this wasn't possible within the show so JMS found a writer he trusted to pen the story.
He worked very closely with the author Kathryn Drennan & he has stated in interviews that out of all of the books released it was the only one that could be considered 100% cannon to the series.
The book covers what happened to Sinclair between him leaving B5 & returning to steal B4.
I think I would have enjoyed the Minbari more if the show had done a better job of presenting all three castes. The Religious Caste were more often than not presented in the most positive light, while the Military Caste were almost always irrational assholes, and the Worker Caste, the ones who ultimately acquire the most power out of the three in the end, were pretty much non-entities throughout the entire series, so its hard to feel excited for them by the end when we almost never saw hide or hair of them. I wish there had been more representatives from all three factions so we could have gotten a more balanced feel for all of them, but thats just me.
earth got tech from centari. centari said...."i only hope that in your stumbling around you do not wake the dragon"
"they have no interest in alien affairs or alien business"
"the minbari are one of the oldest space faring races, never, even at the height of the republic, when we were expanding in every direction. we do not oppose the minbari"
the minbari were space samurai basically. they wanted their technology and cloths and society to be as strong and advanced and beautiful as they thought they were. everything is threes
they all received the same basic training engineering/religion/self defense then they specialized in one of them. they were all capable fighters and smart enough to do basic repairs and spent alot of time meditating. super tradition based and would usually rather die than break tradition. lived like 200 years so were equal in experience to old ww2 vets or something before they were finished with training.
the earth minbari war was slaughter fest. minbari were so much more advanced human ships couldnt even target their ships. had to shoot blind in 3D space or just try to kamakaze em. the battle of the line they took the first human captive because they were so smug they didnt think they could learn a damn thing from humans but they found out humans shared a small amount of dna with minbari jesus. enough to activate their jesus's technology which was programed to glow when it was near his dna.
each race is "guided" alot like a super power does a smaller country. sometimes helps sometimes takes advantage based on how their government and their ambassadors/advisors think and feel at the time sometimes good sometimes bad.
There is never anything in the top right corner for me. What are you talking about?
Delenn was tough.
No way did you ever wanna piss her off
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else!"
I don't remember, but maybe I missed an episode, but did we ever SEE a member of the Worker caste? I mean, what were those guys like? I mean, the warrior and religious caste seem to have a vaguely British/European accent, but for some reason I imagine the Workers sounding Scottish or maybe Cockney?
The comment about humanity's Burnham Hello, which I'm guessing is a reference to the revent Star Trek's Michael Burnham, is a bit unfair. Burnham shoukd not have commited mutiny, but she did advocate the right response, because she had additional knowledge of the "new" race in question that let her know the klingons would see the human's way of seeking of peace as weakness.
funny thing, you compare them to Vulcans (which I see the logic in) but if you think about it, they are more like Klingons. Always 3, very aggressive (even the religious ones), dominated by war and battle (well at least initially, so it effected how they interact with others). thou this is just my opinon
For me, Vulcans are just space Elves. And as such, yes, the Minbari are kind of "Space Elves 2.0".
In other words, they're Eldar. Which means purge.
Meanwhile the Centauri are Space French.
AlexSDU Actually, the story of Centauri fits way more with that of Germany, where the Shadow would be Space Nazis.
I see, but the Centauri always gave me the Napoleonic era France vibe. I dunno why, maybe because their accent, especially among the young ladies.
AlexSDU Napoleonic France was a step back in our history. This a-hole reinstated slavery, something we had just abolished in 1794.
Nontheless, the Shadows play an important part in Centauri's story, and that doesn't match with the Napoleonic era, where it was basically him vs everybody.
Ok, So why hasn't anyone done episodes of the Babylon 5 universe about the first shadow war, and the Mimbari-Earth war?
I figured our rather easily how Earthforce ships could have nullified the Mimbari jamming of the Earthforce radar gunfire systems, giving Earthforce ships accurate and deadly return fire!!! and how to avoid being hit by Mimbari gunfire (most of the time) :) It helps to know lots of Naval history... Using Earths long naval history knowledge would have greatly increased Earthforce's ability to kick butts!!!
at the 7:12 mark. I like the fact that the Minbari are a confusing race and even after 5 years of watching them, we don't understand them. They are alien and have a completely different history and mental processes than humans do. This shows that not all alien races think/act as humans do. Humans find it odd to have a new neighbor break into your house with a shotgun, but to them, that is normal and shows respect.
Long after the earth-Minbari War, the Minbari have begun to treat the Humans as fellow Minbari. The Minbari and Human friendship was a shaky one. The Minbari treatment of Humans a fellow Minbari is due to the Minbari beliefs of reincarnation. The Minbari have noticed that many human souls were Minbari souls. In reality, Valin's decree of prohibiting Minbari from killing Minbari was based on what Valin had already known before he contacted them and become one of the greatest leaders of all time.
4:11 Lore called it. Skimming the comments, Lore called it.
Oh yea, I know RUclips Commenters.. been here for a while ;)
Your work is awesome. Keep it up.
I'm loving you doing Babylon 5 now. Seeing as this was mainly a Star Trek fan site to this point, I'm guessing a good portion of your userbase has a very limited knowledge of this series and would like to find out more about it.
Babylon 5 pretty much invented CGI special effects in genre fiction (on a Comodore Amiga at first, George Lucas copied them in the Young Indiana Chronicles and based the entire prequel trilogy around the technology.)
Babylon 5 pretty much invented the modern American version of 'serials' over 'series' with over-arching story arcs and we wouldn't have Game Of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, The Sopraons, Sons Of Anarchy, Mr Robot, Walking Dead etc without it (they would have all been made up of one-off stories where everybody laughs at the one liner at the end and nothing has changed in the next episode, like in TNG or Thundercats.) He even had the whole story planned out for his pitch meetings trying to sell it, a multi-year arc of political intrigue, with a morally grey but deep down good captain, who was willing to break the rules and trick other races into joining the fight, because the coming war that they were slowly building towards would potentially see all the major powers in the universe destroyed if he didn't
Both of those things are worth doing videos about, but the thing I would love to see you do most is about the 'similarities' not between the vulcans and Minbari, but between the series and Deep Space 9. See, JMS pitched the idea to Branon Braga, Rick Berman, and the Paramount executives, who turned it down, and said they would rather make a spin-off to TNG instead of investing money into a new franchise with no brand recognition.
Then there was this sci-fi TV series, with an over-arching story arc, something NEVER done in TV at the time, set on a space station, next to a portal that lets you travel across the universe, with a station commander who turns out to be a religious leader to the major alien race in it, with a different mysterious alien race, seen as gods by the race who worship the station commander, working with him as their envoy (or 'emissary' if you will.) It also heavily featured a 'bad guy' that seemed like he could be redeemable, from an old and powerful, but currently collapsing empire, that had recently freed a race they once conquered and enslaved. This redeemable character tried to be good at first, and tried to make up for the occupation and excuse himself from the actions of his people, but no matter how hard he tried he always failed to befriend an angry and belligerent member of the freed race, who had been a radical terrorist during the occupation, and never the less still seemed like the type who would redeem his race. But then he started working with the enemies of the god like aliens to gain the power he never held before within his own empire, allied his people with the new enemy this slowly building war would be against in an attempt to restore them to their once proud place in the universe, and became the worst bad guy in the series.
As all around the universe races that never worked together before and actively distrusted each other (including the war-like angry race obsessed with honouring their ancestors, AFTER they had started their own war against the collapsing empire which saw our potentially redeemable character use that war to rise to power before the main war began, and as the excuse to ally his race with the big bad empire that was coming in) all joined together. They were inspired by the station commander, to fight a massive galactic war on the same side against an almost unstoppable enemy, who like the mysterious aliens, were also seen as gods by their own devotees, and who at first, with the help of the once collapsing empire, just took out other empires left and right with no one able to stand up to them alone. And also Earth got infiltrated by people representing the greater enemy and came into conflict with with the station after declaring martial law on Earth and the station, and there was a dodgy secretive government organisation working within Earth that were pure evil.
And then, in a later series the commander of the station would be given a new more powerful warship, built solely to fight against the new enemy, and made by combining different races technology into one more powerful ship, that would be the first line of attack in the coming war. It was small, only about halfway between the size of a shuttle and a capitol ship, almost undetectable to the enemy, and with nothing but weapons and an engine pretty much, but it was so powerful that it almost tore itself apart fighting at full strength this little ship did. Oh and the series is FULL of prophecies of the future, a lot of them given by the mysterious god-like aliens in strange and cryptic visions its hard for the characters to understand but are full of subtle hints and references to the viewer, mostly centring on the future of the station commander and the hopefully redeemable alien who goes on to be a bad guy.
Come on, I could honestly be describing the story to EITHER of the two shows there :-)
Oh and in the original version of B5 pitched to the 'creators' of DS9, there was no Garibaldi, the station's head of security was actually a shape shifter, the only known one of his kind in the universe, who was set to tie in to the coming enemy in the war they were building to. (BUT, after seeing his idea get stolen by Star Trek, JMS changed this bit so that the shape shifting thing was a piece of tech used by an assassin in the pilot, and he renamed the station security guy to 'Garibaldi' from Italian history, as he was in charge of a military group known as 'The Red Shirts' and its the red-shirted security guys who always get killed on away missions in Star Trek, as a super-subtle dig that most people don't understand the historical reference to.)
Now THAT would be a hugely interesting video from someone so good at researching this sort of thing, AND someone who's a big Star Trek fan himself.
That was apart of why I did the allusions, but it did remind me of it. I'm going to back off that a bit.
Don't you think that the Centari could have mentioned the gun-port greeting thing? What about the the Pac-mara, the Breen....sorry wrong series😃
Ship and battle breakdowns on B5 are gonna be cool.
You left out how it was Kosh and the Vorlon helped Valen manipulate himself into Minbari culture and dictate it's action upto the point of the shadow war. The minibar had lost free choice in their path the moment Valen showed up.
Re: why they didn't use the starfire wheel instead of wars: the side who started the war was usually the one too chicken to die for the cause themselves, but is all too willing to have others die for it. Delenn points this out in the one episode where she entered the starfire herself. The wheel tests the honesty and integrity of the leadership who conducted the war.
Based on my memory, so quotes not exact: Warrior caste douche: "No need for us to die, we can talk this over." Delenn: "You should have thought of that before you tore our people apart!"
Since you're making multiple comparisons of the Minbari to the Vulcans, I think I have to point to the key difference between the two is that the Minbari seem to have lofty ideals, those ideals mostly point to, "Don't say or do anything bad against us, do anything that might offend me, or do anything that I might not like for whatever reason, or I'll kill you to death." Whereas the Vulcans actually try to live behind the ideals they ascribe, which are "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations", which is a grabbing of tolerance, reason, compassion, and secular enlightenment, combined with their pre-Surak mysticism and spirituality.
The Minbari, for all intents and purposes, talk the talk, the Vulcans, even with their hubris, walk the walk.
that makes sense
Never serve alcohol to a Minbari if you value your life and everyone around.
tread carefully any race that has an entire caste dedicated to war. I don't know if it was addressed in canon or not. I was never able to determine if the Minbari believe that Mimbar souls were being reincarnated as human was endemic to all of mankind, or if it was just the one (The One), Sinclair. Which as it turns out wasn't even the case with him.