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Earth-Minbari War : First Contact - Make all the mistakes
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2018
- What's up Lore Masters, Let's discuss the Earth-Minbari War.. Basically alot of humans lose.. THEY DO ALL THE LOSING! But it all started with the Earth Minbari First contact.
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Our traditional greeting is to shine a light in your face then run screaming at you with a axe …
We mean it as a sign of respect.
But you also showed up in my yard with your buddies carrying weapons. I've been living here for years, everyone knows me, i'm basically a rich and powerful elder celebrity known for being someone you don't fuck with but who doesn't fuck with you. You were told to send one dude without weapons to say hi. Ya didn't.
If my family's usual custom is to see your weapon, flash mine back at you, and try to get a good look at you...if you're on my front lawn...or really like...the White House lawn...that's not a ridiculous response. It's not my fault if you come from a different country that doesn't take kindly to that. We're not in your country and you've had time to hear about our country.
You can't purposely sneak toward the secret service detail of the president of a country you with which you have no relationship, react with surprise when they note your weapons and flash their own, shoot the detail, kill the president of that nation, and then run.
I mean, they're not justified in literally exterminating every single member of your country of course. ...cuz holy crap. That's fucking insane. But really, you can't kill an unknown foreign dignitary/leader/spiritual figure/whatever whom you're supposed to know at least a little bit about and not expect military action if not outright war.
So effective it got ripped off by STD.
At this point what hasn't STD ripped off? B5, Video Game Developers, Dune....
A P Its more like you and your buddies go hunting in Siberia, randomly you think you see Donald Trump and a few body guards tramping through the bush. You decide to get a bit closer because that has to be a hallucination but low and behold it actually is the Trumpalufagus. You take another step and the wayward president and his party hear the stick you accidentally stepped on but instead of reacting in a logical manner what do they do?
one agent jams all communication, another shines a light in your eyes and the president himself charges at you with a shotgun. That is what the foul aliens did to the human fleet and if this situation happened to me I would take action to defend myself and it would be ruled as self defense regardless of him being a head of state.
@@lolroflroflcakes Eh. They went looking for the Minbari. In their space. With guns. After being warned. The agents didn't jam communications. They shined a bright flashlight in your faces but were unaware that you were communicating with visual hand signals and wearing night vision goggles. Also, Trump and co aren't the rulers of Siberia and you aren't a rando military officer making first diplomatic contact with the people of Siberia. Basically, the Minbari are the big dogs. Basically, you should have heard of them by now. Heck, they know you have.
You can't basically kill a US president as your country's first contact and be like..."well i didn't know your customs!" when it comes to the US. You can't beat like...Russia or something in a war as your entrance on the world stage, make contact with France and the UK, get warned not to antagonize the US, and then proceed to still go out and do this. It was possible to do some research before sending your troops onto US territory.
Remember also, that Minbari society changed due to Valen. And Valen knew all this. Therefore, Valen set this all up to ensure it happened as he remembered it.
Lucky Sheridan had a good memory. ;)
@@cbhlde Valen was Sinclair...
The humans should of sent the message in Centauri. Reasoning: Londo stated that the Centauri ans Minbari have had dealings before. Thus they would know each others language.
Yeah this would have made sense...
You'd figure it'd be in Interlac. Earth did have dealings with the League races during the Dilgar War and thus have experience in interspecies communication.
It would be kinda fittin' for the Centauri to don't give every "secret" of their Language to the Humans. Lore wise the Centauri even tried to convinced the Humans that they are simple a lost Colony of the Centauri Empire and only after probaly a decade or more Human Scientists got their hand on some Centauri DNA. Probaly even more as a "accident".
So basically, it could be possible that if they tried to send something in Centauri - maybe they even have - it could be just "drunken rambeling" the Minbari (Although so wise and great) would simple sit there confused and don't know what to do with it.
Futhermore, the Minbari were extremly isolationists - Due to their supreme military might they could afford it like China in the Middle Ages or Japan due to it's geographical location.
And also in Human History there are examples for Cultures which kinda tried to "protect" their own Language. I think Japanese was for an example a Language which was more or less at first mostly not "learnable" for Europeans due to the fact that the Japanese didn't want to give up their secrets so easily.
So in short, it's entirly possible that you would have Alien Races which speak your language (If it's possible for their vocal chords), which speak the Languages of other Races but even Linguists would only know as much about their Language as the common Anime Viewer about japanese probaly even less. I mean, if you don't speak your own language in front of others, if you encrypt your messages etc. - It would probaly take decades to even figure out how to greet somebody in your language.
At least brought along G’Kar who knew a bit but have a meditator.
I expect the mistakes make by both Mimbari and the Earthers and was written with so many bad decisions on purpose was to point out the need for Babylon 5 for diplomacy. Earth being a major victor in the Dilgar war and made themselves known as a major power player, was cocky but reasonably so. As so many other "older races" weren't up to the snuff. As Londo stated in the first episodes of B5.
"Do you know why I am here? I'm here to grovel before your wonderful Earth Alliance, in hopes of attaching ourselves to your destiny, like... what are those fish called on your planet that attach themselves to sharks?"
"Ramoras."
"Yes. You make very good sharks Mr. Garibaldi. We were pretty good sharks ourselves, once - but somehow, along the way, we forgot how to bite. There was a time, when this whole quadrant belonged to us! What are we now? Twelve worlds and a thousand monuments to past glories, living off memories, stories, selling trinkets. My god man, we've become a tourist attraction!
"See the great Centauri Republic, open 9 to 5, Earth time."
- Londo and Garibaldi
The Centari themselves seem to have fallen behind earth. So I expect Earth felt they could take on the Mimbari sure they were old, but they probably have gotten behind the times as well, especially as they kept to themselves. While Earth did posture for defensive action, Mimbari gesture of piece with over loaded their sensors was indeed threatening. It is like trying to pet a scared dog, that hand to comfort to the dog looks the same as the one used to hit.
I approve this message.
After the Dilgar War there was a big space Military Industrial Complex. War, never changes. It's a racket to make the rich, richer.
Bro you ok? Are your shoes too tight? /s
Man I miss the quality of writing and acting presence this show had
Your final read on the war is accurate, and indeed the cannon explanation.
Lando himself said it during In 'The Beginning'. "The humans have a saying. Pride Goethe before a fall. Sadly pride has never been just a human trait." The Ignorant pride and arrogance of BOTH sides in equal measure led to the most colossal misunderstanding in (fictional) history.
Both sides were equally culpable in the ensuing devastation
The great tragedy of the war was all the times it could have been avoided, or ended... but wasn't.
The fact the mimbari tried to exterminate a race shows they were hardly enlightened
@@travisdavis6778 minbari*
Right here. The war happened due to arrogance on all sides. Likewise the war was heroic on both sides. Arrogance gave way to bravery and nobility everywhere
What is even more tragic about the war is that it _shouldn't_ have been avoided, because avoiding it leads to the Babylon stations not being built, which leads to the Shadows winning.
In the novelization, it was implied that Jankowski had a lot of connections, political and military; and thus that was how someone not only completely unqualified but the direct opposite of what was needed to successfully complete the mission was picked for it.
Recent history is full of precedents for that.
It used to be worse in the past, but still happens today. Although sometimes you need a different outlook on things, if your only qualification is nothing, regardless of connections, you shouldn't get the position. Not with something where you are putting other people's lives in danger anyway.
Well spotted! :)
It was the plan that was bad not Jankowsky. What would you have done differently? Hindsight is 20/20. When detected he tried to hail with the only response being and energy discharge that took away his second option to flee then the gun ports opened…. He had two choices willingly allow his forces to be sacrificed for interstellar relations or defend the lives of those whom had been placed in his hands. You by virtue of the show know how it ends but if he didn’t fire and the Minbari happened to be let’s say Klingons you would sitting here say what a buffoon he was for not firing.
@@lisawatts-co5pt
1) it’s a show.
2) were it a real world situation, I would have *followed orders* and not made such a “buffoon” unnecessarily risky move trying to get closer in the first place.
Realizing that by giving me such orders, perhaps people way smarter than me would figure that being that cautious was better. I think maybe as an EAS officer with one already botched first contact experience, I might have already had training that I clearly didn’t use the first time I screwed up.
Thank you for further proving his monumental incompetence while trying to refute it.
Worst first contact ever?
You obviously haven't been to many bars …
The red car and the blue car had a race all red would stuff his face...... but smart old blue he took the milky way (ealy nineties uk tv add refference #keepitfresh)
casbott 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Especially In Thailand 🤔
Or read anything about 40k. Open gun ports and sensors jamming the ships are the least of your worries.
Got this one beat - the alternate Cochran greeting to the first contact Vulcans. Nothing says hello like a shotgun!
Sheridan did try to reason with the general. Telling him that captain Jenkowsky was a lose cannon, and that his record with first contacts was problematic at best.
Sheridan was offered the XO position of the expedition, but turned it down because he felt uneasy about Jenkowsky as the overall commander. He was criticized for his decision, but ultimately was proven correct. He also gave the earth alliance it's only victory during the war. I don't count the first contact, as neither side had declared war until after the tragedy.
What was Jenkowsky supposed to do? What did he do wrong? Hindsight is 20/20. The only thing you can say he might should not have done is get closer to try and get intel on a species they knew nothing about. When detected he tried hail, the only response was an energy discharge making escape impossible then the Minbari open their gun ports! I Know in fairytale land he’s supposed to wait till the other guy shots first but in real life it doesn’t work that way because the guy who shoots second is already dead along with all those he is responsible for.
You talking about Star Killer, er John Sheridan?
This is the very definition of Grimdark. Everything that could have gone wrong *WENT WRONG.*
This is also probably the way the average first contact goes in 40k.
In 40k, when humans meet a new alien they exterminatus the alien's home world.
@@khartog01 Nah. Despite what people think there are quite a few alien protectorates under the Imperium of Mankind.
Also first they need to see if they are humans or aliens.
"In 40k, when humans meet a new alien they exterminatus the alien's home world."
Yeah, pretty much. Well, unless they're Chaos humans, then they... potentially try to convert them? Or otherwise not associated with the Imperium, but there aren't many left.
"Nah. Despite what people think there are quite a few alien protectorates under the Imperium of Mankind."
No, there aren't. There are a few slave races but they're human descendants. (Though, 'slave race' is a bit of a misnomer, as it would describe all but a handful of humans as well.)
"Also first they need to see if they are humans or aliens."
If they're aliens, well, they must be exterminated. If they're humans, they're heathens, and must be exterminated. Sometimes more slowly, but nevertheless...
@@basedeltazero714 Correction: there WERE quite a few alien protectorates during the Great Crusade, since The Emperor's view of the aliens was more akin to "do not trust them" and not "do not let them live".
This was probably because of his time as a normal human during the DAoT, having constant contact with aliens living more-or-less peacefully with humans.
I love that even after all these years, this programme is still talked about and fans adore
Yeah, we're geeks, it still stands up even the special effects, but the story alone, it's so murder she wrote, or like the Scarecrown and Mrs. King, right? down to earth.
I wonder if Delenn ever told her husband that she cast the deciding vote that killed many of his friends before they got married?!?!
Yes, she did.
Just found this series and have been enjoying it. I would present a third alternative as to why the EA ignored the Centauri advice: Perhaps Earth has learned (by this time) that the Centauri talk a big game, but exaggerate (Earth being a lost colony; Centauri running the universe). Perhaps during the Dilgar war, the Centauri advised Earth to not get involved... so, when they gave similar advice regarding the Minbari, EA took the position that since they handled the Dilgar against the Centauri's advice, they could handle the Minbari, too.
Pretty sure they also knew... Londo had poisoned their president, just saying...
I do t think there was any conspiracy or shadow influence that directed this meeting.
The EA became cocksure of itself after beating the Dilgar. Being so new on the galactic stage and the Dilgar war being a large and dynamic conflict, I think the EA thought they were in the big leagues then. Technology aside, big victories over supposed big foes can make one feel a lot bigger than they are especially among hawks.
He was the wrong person to send. I think some of the higher ups knew that which is why they tried to to convince Sheridan to be xo
no he was ordered to not make contact and to avoid and he disobeyed orders, however he handled the first contact as any other captain would, what the Minbari warrior cast did was completely fucking stupid
"Arrogance and stupidity rolled up into one package, how efficient of you" Londo said it best.
The way I always viewed the Mimbari was through the caste system.
The two dominant castes were Warrior and Religious, and I don't think they liked or trusted each other.
This lead to them being somewhat secretive and insular.
So, Dukat did not know about the Warrior caste "gun ports open" policy (I think there are or were some real human cultures that had a similar approach to meeting strangers).
Likewise, I think that the Warrior caste did not mention the Earth force ships to Dukat because he was religious caste, and they could handle it themselves.
If the head of the Grey Council had been Warrior caste, I suspect they would have reported the earth ships.
As for the Earth force Captain, I think he was chosen because he had proved a capable commander in a combat situation, so could. Defend himself if necessary.
This proved to be a bad choice for first contact, because it could be interpreted that he panicked.
Blame for the war lie with both sides.
A more measured and thoughtful Earth commander might have activated weapons as a defensive stance, but waited for the Mimbari to actually attack before opening fire, but Earthforce wanted someone more aggressive.
As for the Mimbari, their own arrogance and secretive nature resulted in the Earth Captain interpreting their weapons stance as a preparation to attack. Certainly the Warrior caste could not understand that another culture could view this open and "peaceful" approach as an aggressive move.
I have no idea if this is correct, but for me it helps to explain how things went so wrong.
Keep up the great work :-)
I think the reason why the human captain open fired first was because that according to intelligence at hand (which was not much mind you), Minbari weapons technology was much superior than Earths'. Thus, he open fired first to gain as much advantage as possible.
I always felt that Dukat had made his decision prior to the grey council meeting & manipulated the council into doing what he really wanted, he did say "I've always heard about Za'hadum in legends & whispers, I've always wanted to got here & see it for myself" (that's probably not word for word what he said as I lent my dvd out & never got it back).
Earthforce was overconfident thanks to the Dilgar war, I think this played a big factor in them not listening to Londo's warning.
Both sides were arrogant
Thanks for the great video
And delenn caste the the deciding vote
"Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you!"
@@podemosurss8316 Londo Mollari rules. 😎
Never lend out your discs.
Miscalculation and mischance. The way most wars begin...
Londo explained the tragedy best when he said "pride goes before a great fall". Both sides had a ego problem. Both sides would almost destroy themselves because of their egos.
Pretty good summary. Especially of the actions of Captain Screwup.
It's easy to see a number of ways that the war could have been avoided:
▪ Dukat not being so secretive;
▪ The Warrior Caste not being so arrogant;
▪ Earthforce heeding Londo's warnings;
▪ Londo keeping his temper in check and being more patient with Earthforce. After all, the Centauri had already made the decision to make themselves as indespensable as possable to the new up-and-coming power;
▪ EA not sending the least-qualified Captain they could find;
▪ The Vorlons (and maybe the Shadows) keeping their noses out of things;
▪ During First Contact, EA ships could have turned and run once spotted; if followed, they have rear-facing weapons, so fire a warning shot. The Minbari could (obviously) not have approached with guns drawn, could have turned down their sensors, or maintained a safe distance.
Plenty of blame to go around but imo if you're trying to make contact with a civilisation that even the most powerful nation you know of (Centauri) is clearly afraid of then maybe don't go looking for them with an obviously well-armed fleet; take a single ship with minimal armament, with a support vessel or three, and take your time about it, after milking everyone you know for any information they're willing to give you.
I like how they started the Earth-Minbari war as being a series of miss steps, that when all put together, starts a war.
1. Ducat, knowing of the Humans, fails to inform the Minbari fleet not to approach with gun ports open, just so he can manipulate the grey council into first contact with Humans.
2. Minbari greet with gun ports open (w/ weapons not powered) per Minbari custom
3. Minbari scanners overload Human scanners so Humans have to rely on visual only.
4. Humans think they can handle anything even though they are the youngest space faring race
5. Humans try to contact using their own language instead of using Centauri, a race that had known contact with the Minbari
6. Humans send a commander that was, admitted by Earth gov, a bad choice for first contact missions
This all leads to Human commander deciding to open fire. Not doing any one of these and there would not have been a war. For the Humans Minbari were jamming sensors and so they couldn't see or run with guns out ready to fire. For Minbari, they were approaching with open arms, showing that they have no hostility.
I just read it as a tragedy. Dukat, had a plan, but typical minbari he did not deign to share it. He did not bother to inform the warrior caste. The Warrior caste do things, in their own way. Dukat saw the humans, probably as similar to Minbari. The Minbari had withdrawn from galactic affairs, there is not even a Centauri ambassador at this time. The humans were arrogant. They had sorted out the Dilgar, they knew the Centuari were on the wane. It is world war one. The Russian ambassador telling the Austrians, that if they go to war, then the only winners will be bloody revolution. I do not discount, the shadows may have lurked and plotted. Also, the Humans were new... No one knew the Humans The Vorlons, saw us through the eyes of Sebastian
You can see the attitude change as the Minbari actually go from fury to resignation. The Minbari actually are shock and maybe even frighten themselves. The Minbari have not been challenged for centuries the last war, they fought they were lead by Angels. Now even the warrior caste realise they are flogging a dead horse
Dukat did have his plan; he also had "Prophecies" of Valen that only the Leader of The Grey Council was privy to that alluded to Humanity and their importance in the coming war. Dukhat played it close to the vest just like every Council Leader before him and a series of unfortunate events bit him in the ass. As Delenn Rose in prominence and power, she interpreted and disseminated the Secret Prophecies of Valen, leading to the correction of her "mistake" at the Battle of The Line.
I wonder how explicit Valen made his prophecies. Obviously he knew what would happen and who would die - did he ever write down, "Hey, you, Dukhat...it sucks, but you're going to die in this military engagement on this date, and it's really important because the resulting war will result in the creation of me, Valen. Also, Delenn is awesome and you should take her as your apprentice"?
iirc the shadows had a hand in trying to set up the disastrous first contact but misscalculated .,. the shadows were allready being "proven right" on their methods as the dilgar war made the Earth Alliance advance a lot in power and technology.. the Minbari was did also a huge push for EA ..but they didnt considered Minbari going genocydal nuts.. but even so for the shadows.. if the humans would survive they would do so more powerfull ..same for the Minbari who were dormant for centuries since they were allready the top dogs.
But even so the Earth Alliance military were quite arrogant after the Dilgar War since they had defeated an enemy an alliance of many other races could not , the Centauri were in decline , the Narn were rising but still weak after their own war with the Centauri .. so the beliebth was that humans were the Top dogs.. of course that wasnt even close to thruth as not only the Minbari were vastly superior.. but there was other races thar if going full war probably could give the humans a bloody nose at this point.. like the Drakh.. however.. thanks to the Minbari war and the race to catch up tecnologically ironically the humans would be 20 years later able to counter the Drakh offensive on Earth..something they wouldnt been able at the levels they were after the Dilgar War.. proving the Shadow's point was valid.. if morably highly debatable
Nice breakdown, you did a good job with this analysis.
I was really looking forward to your work on B5 initially, but some of your first videos I had issues with your interpretation.
I am glad that over the last several videos your analysis has gotten better, at least in my own opinion.
This may seem presumptuous of me, but respectfully I wanted to offer some important points to keep in mind.
•Straczynski's writting is heavily influenced by Russian literature and cold war geopolitics.
•He heavily favors realism in technology and characters.
•He favors "gray/gradient" morality. When polar morality is shown it inevitably will be subverted. (It is B5'S most used trope in my opinion.)
Good luck & good job!
Delenn could have stopped it all but after Dukat was killed she had blood in her eyes. The blood of millions are on her hands.
She realizes that and admits it later in the same TV movie this came from, even the guy from the warrior caste had lost his warrior drive when they stood at the end.
Benjamin Bierley I know, watched In The Beginning when it originally aired, I just thought it was funny how a peace loving religious person throws her ideals out the window when a tragedy strikes.....especially since The Minbari were partially responsible. I mean who meets potential allies with their gun ports open and weapons hot?
Klingons? :P Sorry example immediately came to mind.
@@benjaminbierley2074 there is little honor in extermination of a species that is little more then bugs hitting your windshield
Klingons, lol you got me there.
With the announcement of a B5 remake, this could easily be addressed by introducing Presdient Clark as minister or government agent encouraging rapid expansionism, with the parties involved being aligned with him, hence their arrogance and aggressive actions during their first contact moves with the Mimbari.
As to Dukat being confused as to why warrior cast approached the way they did, my guess is that it's similar to having a high ranking political official on a Naval vessel. The Captain wouldn't explain why ship functions were done in a certain way but just follow established ship protocols. Just one way to explain it I suppose.
Yeah, I assumed Dukat normally didn't have the warriors making first contact (and for good reason) if he was around so when the humans showed up and they didn't tell him, he was surprised. Learning of how they "greeted" strangers completely took Dukat off guard -- clearly the 3 branches don't share notes on how they run things, lol.
Especially when you remember that, despite their caste system, it's stated that the Warrior Caste only control a third of the Minbari fleet. The Religious caste and the Worker caste each control the other thirds. Dukhat is religious caste and it's highly likely he'd be more familiar with the protocols of the Religious Caste's fleet.\
Excellent the video. I actually rather like how arrogant and stupid Earth Force acts in this case, because it seems very human to me. It isn't particularly rational, but lets be honest here, human beings aren't always very rational (and in a situation were we feel powerful, it is just as likely for us to disregard wise advise). My own theory as to why it went so bad and why Earth Force acted so brashly is because of a nascent and very subtle influence by the Shadows. True, it isn't seen or referred to, but we know they are around and the Vorlons are already interacting with the Minbari, so its not unreasonable to assume the Shadows or their agents knew or suspected this, and would work to sabotage it. Something as simple as a nudge here, a whisper here, and you end up with a situation were the Human Minbari first contact is engineered to fail, thus throwing the Vorlons plans into chaos (which is kind of the Shadows jam)
I honestly don't think Shadow influence is needed. Look at media such as Dr. Strangelove, where General Ripper and General Turgidson are overeager for war. The concept of the hawkish military man who thinks that his armed forces can defeat anything is a time-honored concept and often derives from real-life (such as the generals in WWI).
The Shadows had to know that the mysterious station that showed up in the war 1,000 years before looked a lot like Earth technology so they knew as did the Vorlons that Earth would have a role in their war. Knowing that why wouldnt the Shadows do all they could to destroy Earth and/or make them reliant on them? The Human Capt might have made the decision to fire on his own but Earth was probably being trained not to trust the Minbari and to attack first an ask questions later. I think the Capt did actually show some discretion by trying to leave before the situation escalated but the overloading of systems and guns out with no means of escape ultimately made the decision for the Human capt, shoot first to get away or die. If he really was hell bent on violence why leave after inflicting so much damage and not try to finish them off?
Doctor Strangelove, yeah, that well-known and excellently sourced documentary.
I know whenever I want to learn more about skillful first contact diplomacy I study Captain Janikowski and his brilliant relations with the Minbari
Really? It wasn’t his plan. What was he supposed to do. Not try to gleen anything from a species they knew nothing about? Or just let the hundreds of lives under his command be killed after 1 trying to hail them, 2 being hit by an unknown energy discharge that removed his ability to flee or 3 waiting to be killed along with those under his command after all this they opened their gun ports? You divinely know that the Minbari were a benevolent people surly they weren’t an aggressive species like say Klingons. I mean the Minbari just went on a genocidal rampage afterwards intending to kill every human man, woman and child of a species.
In Star Trek The Motion picture, I believe I recall V'ger interpreting active scans as hostile.
No, it saw it as something worth capturing in its memory. That the “something” would be destroyed in the process is besides V’ger’s point or concern (damned machines).
Timothy Zahn's Conqueror trilogy also had a very bad first contact due to miscomunications. Worth a read for those interested in this topic.
Perhaps Dukat’s confusion at approaching the earth ships with gun ports open was that it was a warrior caste custom, rather than a common custom for all Minbari?
No, the Minbari Gun ports were open, not Earths.
I see what you're saying was it a Warrior Caste ship they were on, it was the Religious class on it, I don't know.
Well, the Centauri might have been afraid of the Minbari and Londo might have warned them, but from an Earth's point of view, fresh from a won war against the Dilgar and basking in glory from the League of Non-Aligned Worlds who where celebrating the humans as heros (not an over-statement!), Earth Force wanted to know about the other mysterious power they only heard about. Not necessarily to go to war or something, but more to evaluate this unknown force (not really a bad endeavor, as any military would want to know how much of a threat an unknown race is they only hear stories about). So, naturally, they wanted to check out the Minbari.
Why did they not take the Centauri seriously over their fear of the Minbari? Easy: the Centauri were only a big power on paper at that time. Everyone saw them as a declining power, with the Narn on the rise. Also, the Centauri weren't considered to trustworthy. As Mr. Garibaldi mentiones in the pilot, the Centauri, on first contact with humans, claimed Earth to be a lost colony and that the Centauri Empire stretched over hundreds of star systems. Both found out to be false, so humans wouldn't take anything a Centauri said at that point on face value. Its a combination of both, why Earth went into this face first: Over-confidence and not believing the Centauri (who everybody knew to be untrustworthy).
I think this is pretty spot on
You made some good points there m8 but... even if the Centauri are/weren't trustworthy the suggestion Molari made to send only One ship was reasonable. Correct me if I'm wrong but sending a fleet with a "hothead" in command, is definitely not a good idea! The logical decision ("...who said Humans are logical...") would've been to send a small diplomatic core to scout out Minbari intensions, and if they are actually hostile... well then you react accordingly.
Call me a coward if you wish but "...don't start a fight that you can not win... unless you really, really have to..." unless you wish to (re)create the Minbari-Human war!
The logical thing would have been to send a diplomatic envoy, agreed. And Molari did indeed recommend to send only one ship. I would think, however, that this would be against military doctrine to send one ship alone, because it might fall prey to a lot of things, like an accident or raiders or, if the Minbari were to be aggressive, it would give them an insight in Human level of technology and some prisoners to torture and interrogate, served on a plate. While this is maybe paranoid reasoning, I could understand why this might be just protocol for Earth Force not so send single ships into unknown space/dangers.
The choice of the captain as reknown hothead was questionable, though. On one hand he was known to be a lose gun (as desribed by Sheridan), so putting him in a tight situation was asking for an incident. On the other hand, he was also a very good commanding officer in an fight, thus improving chances of survival of the crews under his command.
If I remember this correctly, he didnt have a mandate to initiate First Contact though. His mission was to scout out the Minbari and avoid contact. He decided to sneak up on the Fleet in his own, to earn some credits as stated in the video. He wanted to be awarded for bringing back intel, not for making a real First Contact. In that he underestimated the capabilites of the Minbari and mistook their sensors for an aggressive move to paralize his fleet. In that momemt he was primarily concernd with the lives of his crew and his own skin. Seeing open gun ports without being abe to tell whether there was a target lock, he reacted on instinct: Get out, somehow. And the only way to do that was to open fire to try to knock out the sensors that he considered to be an electronic kind of warfare. In his mind, the Minbari had already mind an aggressive move.
Most diplomacy is done with corresponding showing of strength.
Sadly none of them knew they were baiscly caught in a temporal causality situation. I'd say in all honesty this could very well be laid at the vorlons feet. This is one of those case were effect happens before cause. The vorlons had a complete record of everything before it happened, from vahlen. I am sure they made sure that war would happen. I also dont think it was an accident that dukat knew nothing till the last moment. Vorlons are extremely powerful telepaths. It's clear by his reaction that approaching with the warriors tradition is not normal for their ship. We also know vorlons can put pieces of them selves into others. Now the confusion and choices start to make more sense. I bet a vorlon was inside each key player, to insure the war happens.
I don't think so. The Vorlons pride themselves on teaching their "children" to do the proper thing, not by doing things themselves. If they were as hands on as what you describe, Kosh or Ulkesh would have just telepathically run Sheridan and avoided the possibility of having him stand up against them. Heck, they could have used the encounter with Sebastian to do it. Sebastian had his own free will as well, as did Lyta.
@@roguishpaladin that's true accept, when it comes to their agenda. Their are many examples of them doing things that totally take choice out of the equation. Like their creation of the telepaths. The vorlons had a vested agenda in the war. They had to make sure the Babylon project happened, because they needed Babylon 4 to win their war. It must also be noted that you dont have to have full control of someone to stir their actions. Theres also the fact knowing the future doesn't guarantee it will happen. In my opinion from everything we know about the vorlons (including the extended lore, which showed they had a tendency to meddle in time to the point they had to be locked out of time travel by another race) them being behind the scenes influencing the key pieces is not so crazy an ideal.
About Earthforce ignoring Londo, remember, the Centauri had already proved themselves to be untrustworthy. The humans likely assumed Londo was lying to maintain control of Earth's trade. With another race to trade with, that's less influence the Centauri had over Earth. As for the Captain who was sent, he was in the area. Sheridan would later comment that he was a terrible choice to be sent for a first contact mission. It's really not out of the realm of possibility that this happened by chance. Then again, the Vorlons knew that the Earth/Minbar war MUST happen, and likely HOW it started, so your theory is quite possible as well.
That's actually exactly what they tell Londo when they reject his suggestions.
Hey, for once I'll take defence of Captain Trigger Happy Flyboy over there. Now, BEAR WITH ME PLEASE. He came and tried to gather as much data as possible before leaving as intended. Something ANY Starfleet Captain would do. Next came the Minbari sensors. Humans never encountered any problem with foreign sensors, even with the Centauri... who told them nothing about such possibility. For the record, he didn't jump immediatly to the conclusion that it was some kind of interdiction tech. Instead, he hailed the Minbari. Something ANY Starfleet Captain would do. BUT the Minbari didn't understand the human message, and THAT is on the Minbari part. Starfleet Captains DON'T hail ships in any other language than english. They expect *the strangers* to understand them, as long as they don't receive a transmission that suggests otherwise. Finally, the Minbari did salute the humans with cannon ports open, and cannons out and ready. This, plus the absence of response, plus the sensor field preventing any jump (remember, they use Centauri jump drives)... Well, let's say that Trigger Happy Captain, KNOWING that Minbari weapons were described by the Centauri as devastatingly superior... just decided he had only one chance to get his fleet out. The only thing you could have against his handling of the situation would be that he fired first. BUT! Such move made sense, given what the Centauri chose to tell them, and what were the intel gathered by humans. Label him arrogant all you want, he did exactly what ANY Starfleet Captain would have done in his situation, knowing what he was told. Except maybe Picard. Just, maybe. If anything, this comes down to bad communication from the Minbari (no translator, seriously?), AND what I think was clearly a hold on key informations from the Centauri. Almost as if it was on purpose, knowing what the outcome would be.
@Ron Lewenberg Not so sure about that.
Where did you get your information that Starfleet Captains don't hail ships in any other language than English? I'm pretty sure Archer told Hoshi to send messages in various alien languages on multiple occasions.
@@allnamesaretakenful there's also the fact that they tend to have a universal translator in later trek
@@allnamesaretakenful Archer did it. Yes. Not the others. They all expect the aliens they meet to have universal translators. That's why they're so surprised when they don't.
Luc that is because of the universal translation tech in later ST.
I got this feeling throughout the series that Earth side it might've been more PsiCorp pulling the strings than the Shadows. Humanity gets devastated, PsiCorp is mostly unscathed and comes out stronger than ever. Bester talks a few times about PsiCorp minipulating the government behind the scenes for a long time. I don't think they thought the war would be quite that devastating but knew it'd thin down the 'mundanes' even more. On the Minbari side it was the Vorlons all the way. Remember they seem like the good guys but are in the end really no better than the shadows. Spoilers here but remember who Valen is and two Vorlon's were with him in 'Angelic' form when he handed over B4 to the Minbari for the war in the past. They could've easily learned everything from him up till he went back in time then set it all in motion to happen exactly that way again. Vorlon's only care about their end game, about their plans and about proving they are better than the shadows, all other races are fodder for that as far as they care.
After a win you feel invincible and that leads to a great lose.
I feel the humans did make the worst first contact ever. Delenn also had her part in overreacting, but yeah, the humans were kinda dumb in this case. Also, don't hear any salt :)
Londo even said that arrogance isn't a trait exclusive to humanity.
Never understood why the Earth Alliance didn't ask the Centauri and/or the Narn for an English-Minbari translation program. Both the Centauri and Narn can speak English. The Centauri had encounter the Minbari and G'Kar was even fluent in the Minbari language. Or at the very least, couldn't either the Centauri or Narn have told the humans that Minbari have this insane practice of opening the gun ports on their ships as a sign of peace and friendship during First Contact situations?
@@bobnewbell7771 the Centauri hadn't had contact with the Mumbari for a long time. Possibly centuries. Imagine trying to translate a language that hasn't been spoken for that long.
MechaRandom42 when ur lucky not to be extinct , there is no salt :P
MechaRandom42 +i guess you didnt see the part where the minbari jamming had shutdown the earthforce ships jump engines or that the minbari ship were approaching with gunports open,like they were preparing to attack?what you have done?
"I have never yet known the truth (or Delenn) to speak only when it is appropriate." There are so many great quotes in this series.
I feel like the actions of the (Earthforce) captain was understandable, rash but understandable. It silly and demeaning to just say they were dumb.
As a wise and venerable species we have learned that the most prudent course of action on meeting a species for the first time is to pull out our weapons and run at them, that way we are showing we mean no harm.
Some native americans had similar traditions, I understand.
And of course, the american expedition to Japan in the XIX wasn't exactly shy on showing their weapons to the natives.
Londo Mollari summed it up perfectly " Aaahhhh arrogance and stupitidy, both in the same package!!" Earthforce military were becoming just got too cocky after defeating the Dilgar, that they thought they could flex their muscles and try to intimidate the Minbari. You would think that you would consider caution, when even Londo bluntly warns that the Centauri even at the height of their power weren't anywhere close to rivaling them.
In some ways, Earthforce were like the Klingons of Star Trek, fight first, think later.
I have a feeling there's some shadow influence in Earthforce's decision that caused them to do that stupid first contact thing. lol
You know. This is the same situation as Halo. Well close to similar. Except the Covenant just go straight for the heart. Minbari just cripple the limbs before going for the heart.
So to summarize what I was talking about.
Halo Humanity - Heart ripped out. Yet still fighting through the blood loss, burning home etc.
B5 Humanity - Eyes missing, one armed cripple etc. Fought like a cat possess screeching and biting to the bitter end.
Wonder if the Minbari needed to glean the location of Earth before striking. Took the Warrior Caste a long while to begin taking prisoners rather than killing them outright. Longer still to capture a navigation officer that a Minbari telepath could scan for the Solar System's location.
Seeing as the Shadows had at least 1 human agent (not sure how long Morden was their thrall), the heavy Shadow influence later, and the Shadow cruiser buried on Mars, it is possible that one or more high up EA military personnel (possibly even Capt. Yosemite Sam) were subtly guided to underestimate the Minbari.
At the time, humans were the only race manipulated by both Vorlon and Shadow, but not taken as an open vassal race (like the Minbari and Drakh respectively).
If I remember, Morden was lost at the same time as Sheridan's wife - which is after the Earth Minbari war.
Delenn's relationship with Jeffrey Sinclair I always found it confusing. With John Sheridan they had more time to work things out but it is still confusing
I think the Vorlons setting up the first contact situation is a very viable theory due to the exact footage you have offered--especially since we have good reason to believe the Vorlons knew exactly what was about to happen.
The choice of the Captain of the expedition I think can be explained as manipulation (i.e. it remains a perfectly feasible idea) but if history--including military history--is any guide myopic mistakes made by higher ups and/or bureaucracies of any kind hardly need much explanation. This is also made a bit clearer when you consider how often the Centauri routinely lied to EarthGov. In the first season Garibaldi even noted how the Centauri at first tried to convince humans they were a long lost colony. Total nonsense, and really knee-jerk deception on the part of the Centauri it seems to me (I mean, the first Centauri who takes off his shirt blows that cover pretty much absolutely--not to mention anyone getting a hold of one drop of Centauri spit). So they take absolutely everything from Londo with several grains (at least) of salt.
Let us face facts as well--the EarthForce captain did not simply fire first and ask questions later. The situation sure looked like an attack! Which goes to show myopia is hardly a human-only trait! Recall to him (and initially to EarthForce) it looked as if the high and mighty Minbari tried to attack a small EarthForce group who were just patrolling the edges of Minbari space, then got their ass handed to them. Yay Earth! Yay Humans! Except...the situation was much more complex than that. I found that made plenty of sense, especially since the EArth Alliance is a fairly young organization. Interestingly, new nations always seem to behave with a certain degree of immaturity, as do young organizations--even if their members are not immature at all. So it seems to me EarthForce behaved if not wisely at least understandably.
07:50 It is canon that hyperspace is full of gravity eddies and distortions. That is why even ships that can enter and exist hyperspace on their own prefer to use hyperjump gates which have beacons, allowing ships to find their way. It is explicitly stated that the Gray Council's ships are making tours of bases and colonies. Given that Delenn was undergoing a ceremony, I think it likely that ceremony is why they were not in hyperspace at that moment. I would not be surprised if Dukhat chose to hold this ceremony at this time at the advice of the Vorlons (returning to your original theory, which makes plenty of sense imho).
08:11 I don't get it. How does this not make sense for battle commander to think this might be the case? A fundamental tenet of military intelligence is to focus on what others CAN do, distinct from what they MIGHT do. This is another thing--EarthForce is thinking in terms of combat situations, which makes sense since they just got out of a major war.
08:25 I can give the captain some benefit of the doubt here. He had been ordered to avoid first contact, but in his eyes that had been rendered moot. He was in one, whether he liked it or not. And he might well think the worst impression he could possible give was that Earth ships turn tail and run at the first sight of an alien ship. You can argue he was wrong, especially in hindsight, but in the moment this is a reasonable approach to make.
08:41 I thought the comment crass but not stupid. Getting a profile of a MInbari warship would be inherently valuable military intelligence. He's quite right about that.
09:08 The three castes are very much rivals (hence the existence of the Gray Council). And it doesn't surprise me the military commander of a warship decided to make a decision then inform Dukhat. YEah, a mistake but understandable.
09:30 To a purely military, combat-oriented mind this seems like a reasonable reaction. Which is why choosing this guy to command this mission was a mistake. But history is full of mistakes.
09:50 Yeah, and speaking of mistakes, here's one by the warrior caste. Rule of thumb--professional military officers aren't usually the best people to run diplomatic missions. This seems like one of those events where one error built up on another (not unlike what happened with RMS Titanic). Of course, I still agree with your original theory--the Vorlons may have been influencing events, in perhaps choosing who would captain this Gray Council's ships for example.
09:59 One does get the impression the Minbari have been rather isolationist for a long time. And his shock may well have to do with why the person in charge of this ship would make such an error.
Overall I think your main point is right. Everyone was at fault and almost everyone made some kind of terrible mistake in this situation. It was totally avoidable, and of course the ones in the best position to completely prevent the disaster--i.e. the Vorlons--needed/wanted this disaster to happen.
the first battle was premiditaded rember he said that he like to see them before he die he was new that he was going to die in that travel
In my opinion, it was a combination of arrogance and the fear of the unknown. Despite the fact that both sides were alien to each other, their actions, the similar characteristics bound them as one.
The one😜
It was interesting that JMS wanted the war to start as a result of a first contact in space. There were too many hawks in Earthforce Command. This problem continued into the series culminating in Presdent Clarke's tyrannical regime. However the Minbari seemed il prepared to contact a unique species also.Maybe the Vorlonn had decided to stage the entire war as part of the overall plan to fight the shadows.
The Shadows were already working in the background, and needed time to Marshal there forces. If they already had agents in Earth alliance, They could use earth alliance to distract the Minbari from their vigil against them with a war against Earth Alliance, possibly occupying two foes and weakening both.
It’s not that anything was done “wrong” in this first encounter, it was more just a series of unfortunate yet inevitable events given the situation.
As someone who watched this show live I really wish there was this much love for the show back then. I know people are going to say no, you're crazy, my entire college would watch it together and times square would go silent to show each episode and every episode got record ratings but that wasn't the case.
I also watched it live and I agree - going back and watching DS9 from Episode 1 has really made me appreciate the writing in Babylon 5 that much more.
We are also getting this mental phenomenon I don't have a name for when something is loved for so long (DS9) and we get a new darling (B5) and its all the new darling is SOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than the old one. Its like New hotness meets comparative nostalgia googles.
I can't think of a real life equivalent to this first contact fiasco. But, in terms of diplomacy, and miscommunication costing nearly the collapse of a civilization, the U.S. said to Japan in WWII, we want unconditional surrender. The Japanese responded back to the president's ultimatum with one word: Mokusatsu ("To kill with silence.") In Japanese tradition for the government to convey this to another power they thought would be interpreted as a request to delay until they could find a way to surrender on terms they felt were honorable. President Truman had a Japanese translator who didn't understand the context, so Mokusatsu was interpreted as a flat out no surrender. Consequently the U.S. dropped the atomic bombs after this event. The lesson not learned was, don't assume another culture knows all the symbolism of the protocols of state. The Mimbari assumed somehow the humans understood the protocol of gun battery tubes open meant, you can see our weapons, we have nothing to hide, therefore we come in peace. But, human military history as it has been, if a submarine puts a firing solution into the combat computer, and opens the torpedo doors, the opposing submarine captain assumes the other submarine is about to fire. So, the reaction of the captain of the Earth - Alliance fleet to fire on the Mimbari is not as trigger-happy, and premature as you might expect.
I don't think there is a real world example, just technologically advanced genocides. I suppose the nearest equivalent would be comparing it to the role of the UN in hostile regions. Weapons are loaded and ready, that's standard practice among combat units facing no mission specific or active targets. I know comparing military units isn't quite the same, but really they're the only legally armed people encountering something similar (on a smaller scale also law enforcement). The primary rule is not to engage first. Aim at what you're worried about, but you don't fire. A show of force is often the most peaceful resolution on Earth and maybe the open cold war stand off is a good example of showing your cards to avoid conflict. It goes back culturally a long way, the martial arts practices of displaying open hands is the same thing. Besides it's embedded far more deeply genetically in us, from cobras raising their hoods to dogs baring their teeth, 'these are my weapons' is the natural response to 'I don't know what you are'.
It's not at all surprising that the humans would've been so aggressive and arrogant. They had just come out of their version of WW2 and won it conclusively. They felt arrogant and invincible much like the US immediately after WW2. They probably felt it was the best time to expand human hegemony through the Galaxy and didn't take the Minbari seriously due to their relatively small territory.
I view this as more of a true tragedy of people being idiots, rather than any comment on any armed forces... Or not as good writing as the writers wanted!
I dont think the writing is bad.. but thats one of the reasons I include it.. most would agree that babylon 5 is written well..so if it's not that option..what is it?
OK, I misspoke a bit, I meant the Writers were slightly over ambitious at doing their version of the path of WW1 in space
I was actually being rhetorical and agreeing with you. It wasnt my Intent to come off adversarial
I also poorly made my point
Nah.. you made a good point which is why I agreed :) All good!
First a great view on this video Lore your dead on. In my opinion one way of looking at this is yeah this was not so good writing. So many foolish mistakes on all sides it kinda make the leadership foolish. But they are a bigger picture while in terms of this first contact yes things were done wrong. However this was written solely to set the plot which was to become the whole basis for the B5 franchise. So in retrospect i dont think of this as bad writing but a necessity to set up what almost everyone can agree one of the best written sci-fy shows ever. Without these events as written the storyline of B5 would not have had the excitement and intrigue that we came to love.
In regards to humanity disregarding Londo's warning I have always chalked that up to arrogance after the Dilgar war but there's also the idea that Shadow influence had already crept into the Psi Corps. It's entirely possible Psi Corps and or the Megacorporations wanted this interaction to happen and so pushed it that way. Remember, Edgars tells Garibaldi that for years Earthdome has effectively been run by the megacorporations who allow elections to happen in order to keep the masses quiet and to protect the pretext of democracy. If that's true (and I tend to believe it is) then it's entirely possible people who would have a bellicose, pro-reactionary response were intentionally pushed to the forefront of every possible chance to make a decision of to seek out the Minbari or not and then if so to do so peacefully and on small scale or with a full expedition. Clearly, the full expedition concept under Janciowsky (sp?) was the wrong idea from the stand point of peace, but from the stand point of creating a confrontation which may lead to a conflict which may in turn lead to new technologies via IPX or Earthforce R&D plus the potential of selling arms and goods to an Earth now on a war-footing and it seems... less suicidal than on the surface.
I think the reason dukat was confused by the first contact is because it’s implied in the first season iirc that minbari approach with gun ports open but weapons powered down as a sign of “we come in peace , but fuck around and find out “
The confusion stems from weapons hot
I agree with the idea that both parties can share fault. Captain What's His Nuts could have jumped away after seeing the Mimbari ship weapons ports open. Yes, he did not know that was the custom of the warrior caste. However, Derek's reaction was purely emotional in my humble opinion. She did after all lose a friend and mentor to a horrible misunderstanding.
Might be a bit late, but goof at 9:48... the Minbari approached with gun ports open but weapons were not active, not "hot." It was their "open hands" greeting. However because of the Minbari scanners overloading the EA ships' scanners they couldn't tell if the weapons were hot or not.
As I remember, Jankowski had his back covered and also was an ass. A bad choice, that Sheridan knew about and declined offer of First Officer.
Mistakes on mistakes make good Greek tragedies. That was epic, as the whole movie was.
I think you're being a bit too charitable towards humanity, Lore. Not to say that all military hierarchies are inherently stupid, but our history is littered with examples of military commanders and politicians making poor decisions based on incomplete, erroneous, or downright baseless information. Off the top of my head, the beginning of the First World War strikes me as a good comparison.
@Ron Lewenberg I dont disagree, and obviously its not a one-to-one comparison. But the general consensus across Europe was that any war would be short and easily won. The Germans in particular were overconfident. And in the broad strokes, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand isnt all that different from the death of Dukat.
Hypothetically, if EA managed to re-engineered some of the techs from the Dilgar which is said to be close to Centauri, and equipped them on the Nova Dreadnoughts and Hyperions, I wonder if EA might stand a better chance of defending themselves from the Minbari. Maybe prolonging the war to 2 extra years and kind of force the Minbari to negotiate?
Them not listening to Londo makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure how much influence he as in the Centauri Republic at this point, but I see it as quite possible that he is working at a dead end job that no one else wanted. Not someone the humans would take seriously.
If you read EFNI web pages then they give explanations as to the this, don't know who wrote it but it does fill in a few plot holes.
I believe any of the plot holes were intended, we knew the Vorlons had limited knowledge of the future because of Sinclair, It's safe to say they intentionally influenced the actions of Minbari (hence why Kosh was in the shadows) to cause these set of events to occur, at the same time its safe to say the Shadows were doing the same to influence the humans push to war with alien races, as it fits their belief of evolution through war. (hence why they mentioned the war with the Dilgar). All of this was ensure history would come full circle.
Babylon 5 has been incredibly well written, I feel it's best to see this story as part of a greater whole where other facts have been intentionally omitted or left to the viewer to fill in the gaps from the knowledge of the series, movies and books.
One small correction.
The Menbari had the weapons open but not armed.
Second the Minbari scanners was disrupting the Earth force scanners and Jump engines.
So the humans could not discern if the Minbari defenses where active or if weapons the weapons where armed or being targeted.
Dukat who was not informed of the warrior cast following this minbari tradition of approaching with gun ports open and didn't know the minbari scanners where affecting the Earth ships so severely.
Once he found out even told them to close the gun ports. But it was to late.
There is your corrections.
It says in the movie they are armed... now where that was a correct scan reading
Minbari weapons were not armed
@@LoreReloaded I'm afraid I can't find the clip on RUclips from in the beginning.
But if you watch the episode very closely the warrior cast member said and if memory serves me.
I quote "we're approaching with gun ports open." To Dukot and it's Minbari symbolism for open hands in friendship.
At no point did anyone said to Dukot nor did any minbari say the weapons where armed nor charged in fashion.
The minbari never says their weapons weren't hot and the humans say they are.. I've watched the movie a few times
@@LoreReloaded J. Michael Straczynski (sp), the creator and writer of the show says that the Minbari did not have their weapons charged. That with their sensors up, the humans had no way to tell. The officer said their weapons were hot only to cover his ass if something went wrong. So from the mouth of the creator..not armed...hence why the Minbari we so angry. Delenn in her rage also says that the humans attacked unprovoked after they saw the Minbari were no threat.
I think it was the Vorlons and maybe the Shadows playing with Humans and Mimbari, more so the Vorlons, who know the truth about the two species "connection" from the 1st Shadow War.
@Lore, as for the Earth Alliance Captain, he didn't sound southern to me, it sounded more western, maybe southwestern like New Mexico or Arizona.
But what if the vorlon DID tried to arrange a peaceful encounter between humans and minbari, but the shadows were smarter and made sure that the worst human captain possible for the mission would've been sent there.
I think that the biggest problem with the First Contact's presentation was the movie.
While the movie is enjoyable to watch, it often feels to me as if they retroactively tried to make the heroes look better and had to make the others look worse to make that happen.
The stuff on captain trigger happy comes from the novelization of B5:In The Beggining. At first he was treated as a hero, then, when the war began, they tried to throw him at the Minbari to appease them. Once the war got really bad he committed suicide.
Good vid! Excellent points.
Re: Lando- EA was aware of the Centauri's machiavelli culture. EA was skeptical of claims to the point of dismissing them and didn't want the Centauri to think they could muscle in on Earth & Mars.
The Capt was wrong to engage in any action that would result in a first contact situation with the Minbari.
"You had One Job!" - EA
Warrior Caste overstepped authority, Religious Caste handled First Contact hence the confusion by Duhkat as to why the gun ports were opened and hot.
Delenn overreacted.
Great writing & acting.
That's my friend Tim Colceri who played the Captain who fired the shot starting the Minbari War!
Years from now when America is significantly dumm down some one viewing this will think this is a documentary.
As an old Centauri might say "pride cometh before a fall."
I think the human military at that exact point in time were the most prideful they've ever been they gone from being a nobody on the intergalactic stage to the force that had defeated the Dilgar and saved the known universe. While it may seem like bad writing it was just their worst moment.
5:30 Have you even seen Babylon 5? The Minbari fleet was on a secret mission to Za'ha'doom, following an indirect route. When the Earth fleet encountered them the Minbari were well outside of where they would normally have been.
They even state, the Minbari had no reason to be there.
This captain was not sent to make first contact. The encounter was accidental.
Also, as why the humans ignored the advice of the Centari, history has shown over and over, a great reluctance to follow sound advice. I think it comes down to the types of people who run for office and are elected. They think that, because they have been elected or given power, they are smarter than average. In fact, the opposite is true. They start thinking "All my ideas are good ideas." when most of their good ideas came from advisers.
Holy Crap, this is an actual series? I thought the specific clips I shown explaining everything you just did was from power rangers RPM..
Smart ass,
If you are going to talk about something, you should at least know the basics. You stated, "Why would the Earth force send that captain to make First Contact, which they did not actually do. First contact was an accident, with neither side expecting to encounter the other.
Earth Force had in fact, issued orders to *AVOID* contact, which you mentioned, leaving me to wonder why you said they had sent him to make first contact.
I'm not even going to wonder. There are so many bullshit channels on you tube, it doesn't really matter, I'll just unsubscribe to yours and carry on. I know that with 38K subs, losing one means nothing to you, but I'm not unsubscribing to make you feel bad, I'm unsubscribing because I only subscribe to channels that make quality content. And *THAT* should mean something to you. If it doesn't, you are going to start losing more than 1 subscriber.
I reflect the perceived tone of the person whom responses to me. I feel confident that I addressed your concerns.. If you didn't think I did - that's fine.. We'll agree to disagree.
My point is, you are not providing accurate information. Your tone has nothing to do with anything.
And "tone" is really hard to gauge when you are reading something. "Tone" doesn't really transfer to the written word that well, because you need information that comes from outside that which is on the paper. For example, If I had simply written in my original comment, "That is the smartest thing I have ever seen." how would you know I was being sarcastic?
Look, your video isn't bad. And a lot of your other stuff is quite good, but mistakes made here lead me two think maybe you don't know as much as you think you do.
Imagine I tell you 5 things. Four of those things you did not know before, so you have no idea if they are correct, but the 5th thing I tell you, you know it's wrong. How much faith will you have in the correctness of the other four things?
I disagree. I think I am.
The Mimbari ships were not running with weapons hot. The gun ports thing is their standard "salute" however the Earth Force vessels could not detect that due to the jamming from the sensors.
why they were celebrating? well most likely Jankowski reported the Mimbari lure him in and were planning to ambush him but his quick action saved his ships.
when the Mimbari scanned them back the Mimbari scanners rendered the earth ships jump engines offline and the Mimbari fleet closed in with gunports open. Earth ships couldnt tell if they were preparing to fire
from his perspective they lured him in and prevented him from running and pointed their guns at him
Basically "We handled the Dilgar, we can handle the Minbari" says everything. Earthforce was high on success. Too inexperienced to understand their place (or the Dilgars) in retrospect. One alien is as good as another, right? It's just as Londo tells the story later. Pride goith before a fall.
Minbari weapons was NOT hot. Just the gun ports was open. The earth people just thought they were. From bad sensor readings.
I could never get over the Minbaris tiny little baby ears.
Back in the old days, there were more websites dedicated to the history and lore of B5; if memory serves, I think there was some mention that there were elements within EarthGov already in contact with/under the influence of the Shadows, and were involved in part with the selection of a known trigger happy Captain to botch first contact and get the race of Valen out of the war. Or, it could be Londo's explanation in "In The Beginning," was correct - an arrogant "hey we just won space World War II" Earth Alliance sent a shit kicker to intimidate a potential rival, and it blew up in their faces, literally and figuratively. Such practices are not uncommon today, governments can and will sometimes choose appallingly bad Foreign Ministers or senior negotiators if they think they are operating from a position of strength.
Actually quite good thinking. In my opinion either the Shadows or the Vorlons orchestrated this war. It makes sense for both of them.
The Vorlons knew they would need both, Minbari and Earth to lead the coalition to fend off the Shadows. The Minbari, though still considered the strongest power in the region, were stagnant for centuries. They focused on their inward perfection and didn't really care for the rest of the galaxy. They were still strong enough to defeat the Centauri, but not to defeat the Shadows. And the Vorlons needed strong allies, since the First Ones have left after the last encounter. Neither Humans nor Minbari were at this point strong enough to fight a prolonged conflict against the Shadows. They needed to become stronger and as the Shadows always claim, war makes you stronger.
Why would this make sense? Though the Vorlons knew that Humans will be important, they didn't intervene on Earths behalf, though they had influence on the Minbari government. They relied heavily on the coincidence that the Minbari will finally recognize the Humans as their "brothers". Since the Humans later initialized the Babylon project and a major fleet build up and technology programm, they had achieved what they had hoped for. A strong Earth, a no longer isolated Minbari soceity and a place where they could coordinate the war from, even with the help of all the other races.
On the other hand the Shadows must have known that the Vorlons are the only First Ones (besides themself) left. They knew they need strong allies. In my opinion the Shadows were responsible for the Dilgar invasion. They saw the potential of an agressive race working for them, like they did later with the Centauri. As Earth later joins the war and manages to combine forces to reject and defeat the Dilgar, the Shadows lost their proxy race and had to change plans. Earth was now a major threat to their plans of chaos and war. Since Earth showed the trait of being able to cooperate with different entities this might be some kind of terryfying for them. So for them it makes sense to orchestrate a war, with the outcome to eliminate Earth and the Minbari.
Why does that makes sense? The Minbari War did not completely eliminate Earth as a major power, but since Humans were now more focused on their own (the Minbari and Earth literally changed roles here) and even cooperated with the Shadows, they were no major threat to their plans. They backed up the Centauri, the new proxy race, and they did not intervene when the Shadows openly attack the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, though they had defense pacts with most of the worlds.
So both, Vorlons and Shadows, had a major interest in igniting this conflict. Both did not distinguish in their methods, only in their ideology. And both would benefit from the results of the war. If accidentially or by purpose, they both somehow got what they could possibly desire by orchestrating this war.
I think both sides went in with the hubris of "nothing can hurt us".
No one likes being reminded that they are vulnerable. The Minbaris overreaction may have had something to do with the reminder that they were not untouchable.
Worst First Contact Ever!
... I can think of a Manga that had the world blow the eff up!
Watch Yamato 2199 for an even worse one.. here at least it was a huge and tragic missunderstanding.. in 2199 the Earth military directly orders firing on the first alien vessels that come across without provocation or warning.. wich convinced the allready at war and beligerant Gamillas that Earth were primitive barbarians that needed to be dealt with.. funny enought there are several simils with Babylon 5 in the 2199 remake.. Earth decision to outright attack alien vessels on first contact was mostly thanks to them being in an arrogant position since earth just had won the Interplanetary war against Mars in wich the later had used superior "alien enhanced" ships with tech found on Mars but Earth Fleet could defeat then... so they believed they could defeat anyone wich led to uncalled agression.. and just like in B5.. in 2199 the decision is oposed by several officers but overruled by military leadership.. (same as Sheridan and the Prometheus XO opposing they superior decisions to go agressive)
I really like feel of strong inspiration from the lead up to WW I ... which similar had a series of missteps that at any point could have prevented that tragedy .....
At the same time there is this great tension between individual choices and predestination as all the actors in this situation are caught in a temporal loop where things have to happen for the cycle to close... at least for me.
I also agree I always felt that the infiltration of the shadows started long before the events of the show ... after all it would be strange if at least the agents of the Shadows did not realize that the humans have technology that is similar to the station that ruined their plans a millennium ago.
Honestly its a typical "American Western" first contact, ie bring the steel battleships to japan and show them our enormous guns approach. It didnt work in this case as the minbari mirrored their big guns with bigger guns. In terms of first contact with any race that you know next to nothing about this shouldnt be any races approach, semantics or not. Since you know you dont send a missionary to the zerg just as much as you dont send battlecruisers to the protoss. Not everybody plays by made up human arbitration, policies, and standards. Despite the widespread prevelance of such within most sci fi to sci fantasy creations.
The US Navy had the advantage that the Dutch had been dealing with the Japanese since the first or second Tokoyawa Shogun, and knew just how the were vulnerable, and probably had sea charts for the whole country, too.
Honestly having been in the military it doesn't shock me with the person they sent. The movie "In the Beginning" shows some the background politics likely involved. A smart leader wouldn't have sent him but a buddy of his who's now a General might. It's the sad truth of upper levels in the military and really anything else.
Sometimes people make bad calls is what this ultimately boils down to, and this is exacerbated by more than one person making a bad call in unison. The entirety of human history provides a good number of examples of this.
I always assumed that Jankowsky was chosen for the mission for internal fleet politics, rather than rational thought. He probably had enough supporters in HQ to get a plum assignment that would further his career.
The old boys' network in action.
Neither Kosh nor Ulkesh told Dukhat anything more than he needed to know to keep the timeline intact. But I do think the aide in the meeting with Mollari was a Shadow agent or puppet. The choice by Earthforce in the search mission leader was a mistake, as was Dukhat's overly-secretive dealings with his closest aides, the Grey Council. Because that's what always happens.
I totally agree that Dukat manipulated the Gray Council to go to Z'ha'dum. He obviously did this at the behest of the Vorlons who have a long history with the Minbari (see last Shadow War). It's even possible Dukat was a Nexus like Sheridan and Justin. If Justin had already been recruited at this point by the Shadows it should have been simple to manipulate Earth Alliance to set up the conditions for a disastrous first contact (presuming Justin's as influential as Sheridan at the height of the Shadow War being his "equal and opposite"). If that is the case, one of the points of the attack could have been to remove the Vorlons MVP Dukat before he could do anything in the upcoming Shadow War. Following the worst first contact ever, a war would surely have followed. In doing this the Shadows (or probably their minions) would have removed the threat from B4 allowing them to win the previous war (they couldn't have known their actions would cause its creation, but the Vorlons did); they would have removed the threat from the Earth Alliance in general and human telepaths in particular (the ones the Vorlons had been carefully developing for centuries); weaken the Minbari right before the next Shadow War; and they would have been fulfilling their interpretation of how to guide the younger races by testing humanity against the biggest threat they could find (besides themselves). The fact they were all in a predestination paradox, and both the Vorlons and the Shadows knew this, could also explain both of their actions. The Vorlons would reason that the best course of action would be to wait it out and do nothing lest they alter the past (at least until they encounter the end of the paradox(that being encountering B4 and Sinclair and sending them to the past)). The Shadows would have reasoned that if it didn't matter what they did (at least until the end of the paradox) they should just do what they intended to do anyway assuming they would eventually get out of it and they would want to be as powerful as they could be when that happened (it couldn't last forever, could it?). Notice how during the Shadow War they both kinda go nuts with their displays of power (something they never did before the outbreak of the war).
The line you said "Captain trigger happy watched the devastation and then shot himself in the head". Hmm didn't that happen to two other characters known to be controlled by the Shadows? Honestly I think the Shadows engineered the situation.
It was the warrior cast mistake of coming with gun ports openned and the EA fleet commander of stupidly shooting first.
Never be the first to start a fight,but make sure you finish it
Do you remember the letters that Sinclair and Delenn received from "Valen" in "War Without End P 1& 2"?
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Dukat (and maybe even Kosh) had received letters of their own containing just enough information to insure that Dukat would send the Gray Council off on their mission.
I've always seen the character of Jankowski as an indictment of career military people tending to view everyone as a potential enemy rather than a potential friend.
The problem with Earth-Minbari war is time travel as a part in all of this. Volons KNOWS Valen is Sinclair and everything that is to happen up to the point B4 goes back in time (two Volon go back in time with him). Volon allow things to play out as is so Minbari reach the conclusion of alliance organically. Volon's know if they do nothing things will progress to the Babylon project. The only thing outside of the Volon's view in this was the Centari and Londo's part but since they know even with him involved the outcome still was on track they could ignore that. Kosh is there specifically to steer the grey council down the repeated future path. The need Delean to be personally involved in the first contact encounter to have her faith tested in such a way to overcome her need of vengeance against the humans. Volon's only care about order of things not how many casualties that order will cause.
So am currently watching the episode at 34:19 or so, the Warrior caste guy explains that the are approaching open handed. This is an allusion to Medieval Knights saluting to show they had no weapons. So, while gun ports are open, their weapons are not armed. The Humans then say the Minbari are presumed hostile and weapons are hot. This is due to an overreaction by the XO due to the fact that their sensors are being jammed, they cannot jump, and the XO's fear that the Minbari are trying to capture them to study them. The Humans, due to fear, misunderstanding, and surprise open fire.
This is why learning cultural relativism is important cause the humans mistaken the Minbari gesture of peace as an hostile action. For example it was naval custom for passing ships to have their entire crew to stand on the top deck to show that no one was manning the cannons. I guess Jacowski never taken a course in cultural relativism.
Dukhat knows Minbari first contact procedures. What happened was that the Minbari have been in self imposed isolation for centuries. They have become the stuff of legends and the other races avoid them. Coming in weapons hot builds of that mythology and fear and when others flee - plus the Minbari are rarely seen outside of their boarders so if the other races see a Minbari they're usually in Minbari territory.
The difference here is that Dukhat wants to meet the humans. He's played the council to go to Z'Ha'Dum and the next stage is getting the council to agree to overturn centuries of isolation and reach out to new species and even make alliances. And suddenly, before he can think of a plan the humans are at their doorstep. And it suddenly occurs to him that centuries of frightening the other races with weapons hot greetings is a really bad idea - especially with a species you need to make friends with fast. (Minbari are ritualistic and not every good at improvisation. Warrior caste goes in weapons hot because they always go in weapons hot. It doesn't occur to them to do things differently)
Its a case of everything happening at one and before he can get his thoughts together its all gone to hell
I think the distrust of Lando's information about the minbari is explained by conversations between Lando and Garibaldi. Garibaldi references that the centauri had declared Earth a lost colony of their people and based on tone Garibaldi talked about it like the actions of a used car salesmen. At this point humans may have started to view the centauri as similar to ferengi, cowardly manipulators, when they are not. They are capable and willing to fight, and while they had lied to humans before they were being deadly serious now. Earth was also quite proud of winning the Dilgar war, which the centauri stayed out of giving the impression to humans as either an inability to fight, or cowardice. So the Earth Alliance were arrogant, but they had to ask themselves if Lando was reliable. It could be the minbari are not mighty warriors, the centauri might just be very weak or cowards and are intimidated by a relatively weak threat, or this might be another lie to keep the humans in their lane while the centauri get to exploit regions of space humans have been convinced to stay out of.
Plus, correct me if i'm wrong but I think the humans enjoyed some popularity among other races for their defeat of the Dilgar, who were pretty vicious and genocidal.