There's an answer to what the Humans thought the reason was in earlier dialogue. "How many Mimbari does it take to change a light bulb?" "None, they stop before the job is finished and won't tell you why." That is, Humans had no idea to the point of making jokes about it.
05:42 "They weren't trying to win. They were trying to stall." Beautifully put. That observation is so powerful. Reminds me of Londo's lines of fighting for every inch of space, and of hoping to die with half as much dignity - on the night he chose to die.
You are the one who was (Sinclair) You are the one who is (Delenn) You are the one who will be (Sheridan) Sinclaiir is Valen, Delenn is his great great grand-daughter representing the present story, and Sheridan will be the one to continue his line via Delenn for the future, eventually become Vorlon-like humans in Deconstruction of the Falling Stars.
Mars was bypassed as was Rabaul when the US Pacific Fleet went onto attack the Japanese islands, sometimes it’s easier to let bases ‘wither on the vine’.
I think one also has to take into account orbital dynamics. If Mars was on the other side of the sun from Jupiter and Earth, why not wait until you knocked out the homeworld, since there's no point in opening a jumpgate in-system? If you knock out Earth, you can then zip on past the sun to take out Mars.
I was about to make the same point, but after such a long time I was sure someone already pointed this out. It was a deliberate strategy in WWII called "island- hopping."
The Delenn “if you value your lives be somewhere else!” speech (Severed Dreams episode) was quite possibly THE best speech in any sci-fi show ever. In my opinion of course.
Londo said it best The humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself. Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage…their stubborn nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope, that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end…they ran out of time. One could argue that at the Battle of the Line, it was both desperation and courage that motivated them. Humans were so desperate for more time that a few brave soles sacrificed themselves for even just a minute or 2 knowing it could save some more lives. Its interesting how the Minbari never made that distinction when they've been almost equally backed to a corner in their involvement in their war with the Shadows.
It takes courage beyond measure to go into combat at any time--but especially when you KNOW that survival simply isn't an option. 20,000 Earth Force troopers fought in The Battle Of The Line...only 200 survived. 99% casualties.
Awesome tragic backstory for the Battle of the Line. Awesome narration by Londo in "In the Beginning". Awesome speech by the President. Awesome call to arms and awesome courage displayed by everyone to keep humanity alive. Awesome reveal by Delenn that Sinclair had Valen's soul, which he really really did. Awesome confusion from everyone, including the Minbari, when they surrendered to Earth. Awesome setup for the Babylon 4 arc to make sense. Thank you JMS, for creating such a rich and wonderful world.
They surrendered because Delenn's vote was reversed... The vote that started the war. She told the Vorlon's that the Gray Council was tired of the war, and that they only needed a good reason to quit. Capturing Sinclair, which the Vorlon's helped Delenn in doing, was the "good reason" she needed. Good thinking on her feet, tracing the vectors to a conclusion the rest of the Gray Council would support. Just excellent writing from JMS!
@@refulgent_fanta I don't think Delenn knew it at the time. I don't remember watching anything about the Vorlons helping to capture Sinclair's ship from space, either.
The vorlons position is hardly a mystery. The whole thing is a predestination paradox and the 2 vorlons who were on dukats ship, kosh and ulkesh, were both present when sinclair/valen made contact with the minbari after babylon 4 was sent back in time. They knew *exactly* what happened. That does not mean the vorlons did nothing. It is strongly hinted at that dukat was searching for the humans on the behest of the vorlons. They were making sure the paradox happens.
That is one of the thoughts I had on the situation. Another I had was that Phalen might have left more than two letters. Imagine being told by one of you historical greatest that you should look into this alien race called humans and while it will lead to a great sorrow for both sides it will lead to a great alliance between the two.
I'm not certain if the predestination paradox was originally intended as that episode was because the actual actor did not want to continue with the series.
"To lose this war means more than defeat. To surrender is to never go home. All of us must rise to the call, above and beyond!" - Col. TC McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
Dont forget that Dukhat was the Minbari's Chosen One. They believed with heart and soul, that Dukhat was the pinnacle of Minbari evolution, the greatest one since Valen, possibly even surpassing him in importance, intellect and everything else. He was the the one, they projected their hopes upon, and Humans killed him. That is why they readily went into a Holy War-Frenzy. There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion. The Vorlons knew what would happen up to the construction of B5 because they where there when B4 traveled back. One of the Kosh's (the 2nd one) was actually there when Sinclair transformed into Valen. Thus they had no need to do more than standing there and look cryptic.
"There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion." Given the reaction that they had to the two ships they lost (one starting the war and the Blackstar), it's possible it was seen as a matter of 'they couldn't win the battle of the line without significant casualties, and backed off'. Alternatively it might be combined with the concept that though the Minbari hadn't really communicated, they had only attacked military installations. Perhaps they simply believed they had made their point?
Exactly. In a culture deeply divided along caste lines, Dukhat was the only one everybody respected. He united his species in Life, and he united them in Death, for awhile anyway...
I think the mistake is in thinking the Vorlons are invested in the races or even the wins and loses of each millenial war. In many ways, at this point, the Vorlons and Shadows, are fighting an idealogical war, by proxy. They might win or lose one time around but when they do, they either take the lead and get to put their ideas into action through influence or they have to take a step back. It's incapsulated in the Vorlons aloofness and in the Shadows secretiveness. They are content to pull the strings from behind the scenes, seeking to humiliate one another, but never getting directly involved *against* one another. Until the later stages of the Shadow war. They each took greater liberties as time passed and each war took place, with the Vorlons altering species to be telepathic and perhaps (pure conjecture here) the Shadows making use of their own ships in battle and seeding alien worlds with said ships, were both escalations between each conflict. I think the Vorlons would have been pissed and disgruntled had the Minbari wiped the Humans and that led to the side of Order losing the ultimate war, but would feel comfortable knowing, the Shadows would never really directly threaten them. That wasn't how the game was played. For the Vorlons, they were above it all and for the Shadows, every defeat made them stronger. I think it was only in the Shadow war, that each side had reached a point, as the younger races started to become more independant of the whole affair, where each looked to the other as being the prime factor for this shift in influence and took the to more direct attacks, to terrify the younger races back into line. Most Vorlons didn't care about the bit players, they cared about being right and the Shadows were the same. The are the First One's version of the Narn and Centauri.
Kosh cared in his own way, if you believe Lorien, then he's one of the few Vorlons who actually got it that their interference was inherently wrong. He just had no way of avoiding it without letting Shadows win. Kosh is sort of like Londo and G'kar combined, a tragic character who knew the right thing to do and couldn't until the end
@@time391 I would say that from Lyta's viewpoint the original Kosh cared about people. Maybe that's how Sheridan got through to him. "How many more dead before your satisfied?" We see his emotions in the dream sequence to Sheridan as his father. But one wonders whether he thought Sheridan going to Za'ha'dum would result in him meeting Lorien and breaking the cycle? I like to think so, but he could have just had prescience to know that Sheridan likely goes ("If you go..."), but without him along he will die. "You said if I go to Za'ha'dum I'll die." "Yes, now." Too bad Sheridan didn't jump immediately when he said "Jump. Jump, now!" or he might have lived a longer life.
@@sandal_thong8631 True, I do wonder if Kosh also had a plan for Lyta to take out Talia during the inevitable Telepath war. The Vorlons were many things and one of their worst qualities was leaving weapons lying around for lesser races. Kosh at least left a nuclear weapon level telepath to take on another equivalent telepath in Talia Winters. He protected humanity from our own self-destructive impulses with that act.
@@time391 If the actress playing Talia stayed then she would have done most of the things that Lyta did. Since she left, Lyta became modified by the Vorlons to be the super-powerful telepath. Probably Marcus wouldn't have been a major character with Talia remaining Ivanova's interest. And if Lyta (or an alternate) hadn't triggered the destruction of Za'ha'dum then the Drakh would have had 20 years or more to discover Shadow technology that had previously been denied them by their masters. So better they came out when they were beatable. Too bad they couldn't find a path of their own that wasn't based on revenge for those who fought their former masters.
Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast. Once it came out the Minbari would have to see the greatest Minbari who ever lived, " the best of us" as Leneer said, was a human officer of no high rank or fame. Their best, was a human above average, but no where near the humans best. They already see themselves in decline. This would just be humiliating.
you forgot that the minbari faith sees all existance as a massive introspection of reality trying to figure itself out, finding out that humans and minbari shared souls would be to them the same as finding out they had just commited genocide on themselves. a minbari killing an other minbari was seen by all three castes as one of if not the worst taboo they could be guilty of. thats where their humiliation would stem from not from, valens status as a hybrid.
I hope, if there is going to be another series from B5 franchise, it would be about B4 during the 1st Shadow War. Then we'll get to see how Sinclair spread his love of Swedish Meatball to other species. Also how the Force of Light won against the Shadow.
There was a nicely detailed set of chapters on that in the fanfiction, Dark Mirror, which is one of the best B5 fanfics. Most of it revolves around what would happen if Earth fell at the Line, but Sinclair still needed to become Valen, and we see him in that era.
But niether the Vorlons or the Mimbari knew the humans built the B4 station until later. Sinclair was the only human onbourd and he was Valaen by that point.
Sinclair would meet Kosh as Valean in the first Shadow War. He would tell Kosh the importance of the Earth Minbari War happening so B4 would be created.
At 4:18, I always loved the bit where some star fury pilots move towards their fighters the second they hear "But for every 10 minutes we can delay the military advance, several hundred more civilians may have a chance to escape to neutral territory". No hesitation!
The true meaning of "service" and "sacrifice" They all know they have no chance....but they suit up and go anyways. Something our current 'dear leader' could learn from. Couldn't resist.
Hearing those intro lines change over the seasons really added weight to wait was happening and showed the evolution of the setting and the unfolding events
From what I understand from reading things JMS has stated over the years only two Vorlons, Kosh and Ulkesh knew the full story of Sinclair/Valen. That some time toward the end of last Shadow War Valen had sought out these two Vorlons and told them everything. That’s the reason those two particular Vorlons where on Duhkat’s cruiser when the story began. The other Vorlons had become unconcerned about the conflicts of the Younger Races. Not really caring anymore about being teachers or guides to the younger races anymore. JMS had or has a twitter account and does answer B5 questions from time to time on there
Indeed, Joe writes great speeches: listen to any of G'Kar's many speeches. "The war we fight is not against powers and principalities it is against the darkness of a soul that has lost it's way...No one knows the shape of that future...we know only that it is always born in pain." I would add 2 words and blood.
Love the series. But yes, this question of why the Minbari stop after going on this jihad to whip out the humans for such a petty reason would be driving the Galaxy nuts. I sympathize with the warrior caste being sent to bath in blood killing others they must have realized we're fighting more honorably then them. Then have the religious cast just say stop, never mind. And not explain. To the Galaxy, it makes them think the Minbari, a very powerful race, have gone completely capricious and vicious almost beyond any equivalent in the lore of the Babylon 5 universe. Even the Shadows weren't supposed to have committed genocide of whole races of a whim. Hell everyone would be banding together and arming up as a co defense force against the Minbari. Narn and Centuri would sincerely sign co defense pacts against the Minbari Yould expect folks on Babylon 5 crossing hallways and leaving rooms if Minbari enter; and Minbari having to come to terms as not being seen as mature and spiritual - but as rabid animals and savages. Irredeemable in the eyes of the others. Especially give the humans in the dollar war and other actions had gained some respect among other races. On minbar, it would easily be as bad. A whole civilization forced at a whim by the grey council into a massive bloody war. A war they would be scared by having to bloody themselves in, and then it was stopped at a whim with no explanation. Why would the grey council not be called to task? One of the magnificent things JMS did is evolve characters and civilizations. In the end no one was quite what they seemed even to them self. Oddly in the end the two races that at the start seemed the most advanced technologicly and as a society, the Vorlon and Minbari, in the end looked worse and worse. The Minbari so hide bound and ritualized under Vorlon tutoring they were crystal in and brittle. Unable often to even sleek the truth much less face it. The Vorlon rather then aloof and insular, were manipulating everything behind the scene.
Kelly Starks The Grey Council explained it to the Warrior Caste and some flat out disbelieved them. That's why a rouge Sharlin Cruiser comes to B5 and tries to get fired upon. They wanted to reignite the war in an honourable way by getting killed by humans, because they felt their duty was not fulfilled. Stupid warriors!
@@JoshSweetvale The Humans were the key to change because the Minbari, Centauri and Nan were all in decline: Kosh: "They are dying" Sheriden: "Who? The Nan or the Centauri?" Kosh: "Yes" [birth of a meme btw] Meanwhile for a thousand years every generation of Minbari were lesser than the previous generation, they too knew for a thousand years since the last Shadow war that they had stagnated and were going extinct. The Humans by their very nature of building massive and massively diverse communities were already starting to stride through the galaxy like giants, like first ones. All the other races had become dogmatic and of singular purpose in identity, behaviour, industry and religion, their ambitions were limited to this condemning them to forever turn in the same old circles with same old petty behaviours and petty wars never realising they were slaves to greater masters. Masters that had forgotten their pledge of care and forgotten how their own societies grew and so caused the stagnation in the young races by turning them into a mirror of their own petty differences.
@@timriggins70 Yeah, starting 1,000 years previous, so in the 1200's by Earth reckoning. By the time the 2200's came around there was basically no difference anymore.
The Lenear said they were weakening. The greatest souls Wernt being reborn to Minbari, and hadn't been for a long time. He also said Valentin was the "greatest of us, though he was not one if us". Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast.
@@KellyStarks I think it was a misinterpretation based on their failure to understand the nature of where those "souls" came from. Valen joined them 1,000 year prior and added human genes into the Minbari pool. I believe this is where the "greater souls" came from. Those with Valen's blood activated the Triluminary and the stronger they were in his bloodline (the more human genes) the stronger the Triluminary activated. As those 1,000 years wore on, the genes became diluted across the many millions of descendants, with some like Delenn still having a strong human component (allowing her own metamorphosis to take place), but most not having any at all. To the Minbari it looks as if their greatest souls, the most passionate and ambitious, were leaving. When they discover those souls in humans they think the souls must have gone there, but the truth is that their greatest souls CAME from humanity and they've all but bred them out over the last 1,000 years. The solution, of course, was a joining of the species at the other end of the 1,000 years, with Delenn and Sheridan, in the same way Valen joined the Minbari.
We know they grab something..its ne e clear if it's the soul or just the conciousness or something else.. but that's what I'm talking about..something to resonate for everyone
About what the humans knew... at one point, there was a BABYLON 5 comic book series. There was also a series of B5 novels, one of which was called TO DREAM IN THE CITY OF SORROWS. Both the comics and this novel in particular have been confirmed as canon by no less that Joe Straczynski himself. Taken together, the two sources explicitly state that the truth behind what happened was revealed to the highest echelons of EarthGov, but was immediately made a highly classified state secret. The Minbari told the truth to the new President Clark, specifically so that Commander Sinclair would be made into Sarah's first ambassador to Minbar. (Naturally, Clark and his cronies doubted, but they wanted Sinclair out of the way due to events surrounding the recent death (assassination) of President Santiago. The whole truth was only known to a very select group of Minbari, with EarthGov secretly only knowing part of the story. As for everyone else, human or Minbari, they were kept in the dark.
I remember there was a comic between season 1 and 2 that showed that the earth government was informed about the souls. President Clarke explained to Sinclair that he didn’t believe it, but the mimbari did and that was good enough for him.
I wish we could have a JMS Babylon 5 reboot, with the funding and production values of BSG. Unfortunately this is not likely to happen. So B5 must endure... all alone in the night.
I think the series as it stands is nearly perfect. Any attempt to continue or reboot it would most likely disappoint. It's the nature of TV that most shows go on too long and decline in quality because of that.
the surrender was a really strange thing to do. The humans were at their lowest and willing to surrender unconditionally. The Minbari could just have send: "Unconditional surrender accepted." It might be a religious tenet that if someone recognised he's in the wrong to make amends. And in the case of a war this results in an aggressor surrendering if his reason for the war is proven to be wrong. IIRC the show only stated that the Minbari surrendered but not that it was an unconditional surrender. So in that way the Minbair allowed the humans to dictate the terms of the surrender only to a degree. If it had been an unconditional surrender EarthGov would have demanded access to Minbari technology (what nation wouldn't want access to technology hundreds of years more advanced than their own)
In my opinion they were ashamed of what they had done, and didn't want to add insult to injury by forcing earth to surrender after they had ignored their pleas for who knows how long, so they were just like "whoops our bad, we actually got the wrong address, we give up"
I think humans did not question why Mimbari surrender because they were just happy to... well be alive. And after they thought about the question Mimbari were just silence because thing done too long ago.
my guess is the first year or two after the war a lot of humans just assumed that was what they sent, but the translator f'd it up after that they never got a real answer when asked why, because the Minbari never tell the whole truth
They didn't really surrender. They didn't give up their ships and became prisoners of war. They stopped shooting, said we surrender and went away. Surrender seems to mean something different to Minbari.
What I don't understand is why Surrender. Why not just a cease fire, or accept the Human Surrender. If I had to guess, I would say a Mimbari Surrender connotes something deeper as if they were not only ashamed of letting it go that far, but also that they needed to be punished in some way. The fact that they did surrender would mean that in one way or another Earth could dictate terms. The Mimbari or the show for that matter didn't say unconditional Surrender for the Mimbari so there really isn't enough info to go on as to how people really felt. IMO
@BaseDeltaZero A first season episode with Sinclair had him acting as a mole for a group of people that were angered by the Surrender and he said the victory 'tasted like ash'. Remember? The was a glimpse at the people that wanted retribution or retaliation. The show didn't go into it as much as it could have though.
And as far as we know the Humans were in no position to make the Minbari pay reparations or anything. Or maybe they weren't willing to? I guess a condition Earth did have was the Minbari's involvement in the Babylon Project. But yeah, the surrender I guess shows that the Minbari still didn't understand the Humans and did not think that their action would raise a lot of questions on Earth.
@Doug C Good point, they could have called a ceasefire. I can think of a few dubious reasons why they didn't. 1. It was the quickest way to stop both sides fighting. 2. The concern that the humans might not believe a ceasefire, surrender is more definitive. 3. The Mimbari or the Warrior caste might not have a concept of a ceasefire. 4. It worked as a plot device the foster a big galaxy wide mystery 😊.
For all the prayers you give this show for being so well thought out and executed I can’t help but think that a few of the major plot movers were rather clumsily conceived.
These and some other B5 scenes are the most touching ever seen in any series or movies. The audio, the music and the spoken words in these important moments are for me still unsurpassed.
I think at some point there was an implication that the Clarke administration pushed the idea that Earth won the Earth-Mimbari War - an ISN interviewer responds to a line from Sheridan about how they'd lost the war, and would be doomed if it repeated with the question "But... we won the war, didn't we?" I headcannon this as a big movement of historical revisionism: humans can't imagine why the Mimbari would have surrendered, and so they assume that they must have run out of steam, and that the Battle of the Line destroyed their will to fight.
I wanted to say thanks to Lore Reloaded for these videos. It's a joy watching them and it really helps me to get a better understanding and to refresh my memory of one of my favorite series. Thank you!
B5 is the best story telling arc in all genres for me and made other writers take note. It's story was well ahead of it's time and the episodes for the War Without End and the re-mergence of B4 in the first season are fantastic and well written. Even the books of Lore are fantastic especially the ones with the Technomages, Vir Cotto rise to Emperor,and Alfred Besters life are my favourite titles of all time.
Yeah, I think the Vorlons didn't interfere A: out of their general dismissiveness towards overt interference with younger races (this would change obviously) and B: predestination paradox; they ultimately had no choice in the matter; what will have had to have had happened would need to have happened as it would have had happened.
I've been watching this series for the first time thanks to these videos. It's been very interesting and I am quite amazed at how such an apparently obscure show is so richly portrayed and well executed.
Wouldn't say it failed...it did succeed: just not the way the builders intended. Sorta like science; you set out to prove 1 thing and find something completely unexpected.
Several hundred per ten minutes... so bleak. At times I wonder if writers realise the actual scales involved in cases like this. A colony destroyed, thousands lost... Wait, what? Thousands? An entire planetary population, thousands, not tens of thousands, how about tens of millions? If we took one eighth of the earth's total population (about one billion) and divided it equally across one hundred worlds (colonies), each should have a population of around ten million... I understand there must be a reason why death tolls are always so wonky, but you find this everywhere in sci-fi. I think the best example is the "brutal" fifty year occupation of Bajor, and while any death is a tragedy, compared to real life atrocities here on earth... it doesn't even stack up against the death rate of us deaths to car crashes, and chairman mao's great spring forward claimed far more lives giving the unintended side effect of making the Cardassians look much better than they are claimed to be which, in turn, makes it look like negative propaganda from the Federation and Bajorans when clearly it's not meant to be. In closing, I really wish writers of sci-fi, fantasy, and well... just in general, would close this loop and at least attempt to use realistic numbers, but I get that they don't, and likely never will.
Completely agree. I always wondered about the lack of realistic casualties being portrayed on this show and others. Hundreds and thousands only. I think i read somewhere that the earth minbari war only furnished 250,000 human deaths. I just don’t think that’s a high enough number if your talking about a total war of annihilation.
The problems is is that hundreds and thousands are within the human scope of compassion. when a thousand people die it's a tragedy. when a billion die it's a statistic.
Right? We're annihilating the billions, BILLIONS, of people within your species, one hundred at a time... Even in grand scale stuff like mass effect, a couple billion die across all species leaving potentially hundreds of billions alive... I get that when you start talking really big numbers they start to lose their impact, but seriously? Low balling like this only makes everything look much less dire, or... worst case... that the writers don't actually understand what they are writing, or at least that they didn't bother to consider scale when writing. I mean... my God... I could actually see them saying, "They annihilated earth, and killed everyone... hundreds of thousands died..." then the exchange; "Oh, so we managed to evacuate most of the civilians!" "No, they killed everyone. It was a massacre!" "But... you only said hundreds of thousands..." "It was GENOCIDE! They killed hundreds, maybe thousands..." "Ok, clearly you're in shock and are completely distraught. You should talk to a ships counselor, and... is there someone else in charge I could talk to?" *rocking back and forth in the fetal position, eyes wide with shock, face twisted into a rictus mask of horror* "hundreds, thousands, all those children... so many... hundreds, thousands, all dead... all dead, dead, dead..." *now just repeating words, as though in a trance* "hundreds, thousands, dead, all dead, genocide, hundreds, thousands..." *** "What's that ones story?" "Oh... poor thing... only survivor at a Hollywood writers seminar... keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again..." "Ok... so why the admirals jacket? How'd that happen?" "Well, you know, that's what one does when somebody's in shock, so I just gave 'em my coat and... well, poor thing... anyways, got something to report soldier?" "Do I ever!" "Well, millions are dying, no need for suspense, out with it." "Total surrender." "Yes, we've been broadcasting that for days now..." "No, they're surrendering to us!" "Oh, good. Wait... what? This had better not be a joke troop..." "No Admiral, I guess they just got tired of beating on the smallest kid in class." "Ahhh... so their fists do get tired... Launch an immediate counter offensive, quick, while we have the advantage!" "What advantage?" "None. I just wanted to say something like that before this all ended... you can only take so much of an ass kicking you know..." "Yeah... I got you... so, any *real* estimates on the death toll admiral?" "Yes..." *in a solemn tone* "nearly a billion dead, good thing they surrendered now, or the count would be eight times that..." *** Yeah... that's how I'd imagine an exchange really going down in this situation...
Many of those colonies would maybe have marginal teraformed or pressurized domes, I guess. But this war did always seem to have a pretty small scale of deaths. In contrast, the Covenant War in Halo had about 30 billion human deaths in total, after 28 years.
The Minbari specifically went after military targets first, with the intention of coming back for the civilian populations later to begin systematic genocide. It might be that 'thousands' were lost in each *engagement*, as well.
With the capture of *Sinclair,* the *Minbari* began a sequence of events that would eventually turn *Sinclair* into _"a _*_Minbari_*_ not born of _*_Minbari."_* In other words, *Sinclair* goes back in time _"a thousand years"_ to become *Valen* himself. _That's_ why the *_Triluminary_* glowed so brightly.
It wasnt just Delenn who decided on the Holy War. She casted thr deciding vote, but others have also casted their vote. They decided that it was a Holy War.
She made an emotional decision, not an idiotic one. an irrational decision also is not the same as idiotic. Besides Dhukath was the pinnacle of minvari breeding. He unified two castes and led like the greatest leader after Valen. HE was both religious and military leader. In olden days that automatically meant "holy". And when two castes of three go crazy, the entire society goes. Just remember the damage done by alliance policies and a few idiotic politicans in july 1914. A war, that by all accounts should have been prevented took tens of millions of lives in battles whose only reason was to kill as many ofr as little as posible. Sounds familiar? Can you compare that to the minbari holy war?
The Grey Council's lives were sacrosanct. I know Lore does not like these comparisons, but it was the same as the Tribunes in Rome. ( Mark Antony's job the Guy who married Cleopatra, not Jennifer Lopez. ) So killing one, is a religious act of sacrilege. Or Imagine some one killing a Medieval pope, Basically by definition the MInbari, do not separate temple and state
That specific person killed was also seen as the greatest living Minbari, and the spiritual successor to Valen. So, it would be like if everyone was 1 religion first, and then they killed them.
There’s a very good reason they would’ve bypassed Mars. Given the orbits of earth and Mars it is highly unlikely that they would be lined up at the time of the invasion. So they would have to pick one and then the other, and they decided to start with earth.
Great Video, B5 is one of my favourite Sci - Fi series of all time I always found the mental inflexibility of the Minbari weird for such an "advanced" race.. though maybe in their past the Vorlons had more of a tight grip on the tiller, explaining their advanced tech.
@@travisfoster6473 I'd say you are giving the USA too little credit when you consider the cultural changes in the last decade or so let alone the last century, gay marriage, trans rights, me too for good or for Ill a lot of social change is going on.
Gareth Mitchell The Minbari are a 100% product of the strong order philosophy of the Vorlons. After Valen/Sinclair came with B4 to help in the hour of need and defeated the Shadows, he restructured the society as the Vorlons wished him to do. No wonder they were so set in their ways they didn't dare to question their decisions once the dice fell. Only extraordenary events that were in line with Valens teachings would convince them to change course. That's the kind of inflexibility the Shadows hate in the Vorlons.
Sinclair's lover, presented in the movie The Gathering, makes the statement that implies her belief is the Minbari surrendered because those of the line defeated them
Here is the thing on why the Vorlons don't act when to species fight and why the Shadows do. It is all about philosophy. The Shadows believe that the path for evolution is war, so in order to help others species to "evolved" they start fights. The Vorlons believe the opposite of this and they think the interface is bad. The only reason they get into the path of the shadows it is because they think the shadows are wrong and need to be stop. So that what explain why they did such lukewarm interference into the Mimbari/human war.
also through valen they would already known the outcome of the war and how it prop up the humans, minbari and others in there favor in the next shadow war, honestly i think the vorlons might even have orchestrated the war itself
Dark Kronis It could be a simple act, like teaching the Minbari Warrior caste to show strength when meeting new species, would be all they needed to do. That one act would be all the interference the Vorlon’s would need to do, since it was those action that lead to the Humans to initially fire on the first Minbari ship they met.
One way to look at the "Holy War" thing is to think about how different an alien psyche can be to human. Different cultures do tend to have different understanding to words. To Minbari most things in life were sacred (and thus holy), even woohoo (good job Sheridan for ruining that). Additionally the "Holy" part of their war is something that it was due to humans sneaky attack to a convoy of Minbari ships that hailed them with their biggest sign of respect: Gun ports open. Also Dhukat being the leader of Minbari and moreso their spiritual compass, having him killed basically turned the fanaticism of the Minbari all the way to 11, essentially declaring Holy War. PS: Every time I see battle scenes from In the Beginning, I cry...
In the Beginning depict Duhkat dying in Delenn's arms, at which point she screams "He was the best of us. Kill them. Kill them all. No mercy." The minion then runs off to tell the Grey Council to start the Holy War. This seems very odd because she was with Duhkat when he ordered the gun ports closed. It's even more odd because the Soul Hunter that came for Delenn's soul, a little early on the station, stated that a large number of Soul Hunters had gone to save Duhkat's soul and that the Minbari made a wall of dead to prevent them. It's a puzzle to me as to why the Minbari would go after the humans for making a mistake instead of the Soul Hunters who had tried to stop Duhkat's soul being reborn.
It is my understanding that the reason the Vorlonsl mentioned nothing is because when Sinclair was sent back that the Earth/Minbari War had to happen. For him to become Veylin.
I think Londo and G'Kar together is the best the show had to offer, not just in writing but in the perfect acting of Peter Jurassic and Andreas Katsulas.
I loved the elevator scene between G'Kar and Londo Londo "Goto Babyion 5 they said, it'll be an easy position, they said." Londo sighs "I hate my life" G'Kar "So do I." Londo "SHUT UP!" lol!
I've wondered if the Vorlons were more talkative prior to their encounter with Babylon 4 a thousand years ago. Through that station, Zathras, and Sinclair, the Vorlons would have foreknowledge of events to come a thousand years in the future and knowing that anything they might say or do could alter this future, they became paranoid and went cryptic in order to preserve their advantage
Babylon 5 was such a great series! I watched all of it always looking forward to the next episode. I like the way it mysteries that were eventually revealed only to be given new mysteries. I like the way some episode continued from one to the other and some episodes were stand-alone stories. It went where Star Trek wouldn't go, like showing the real cost of war like casualties. B5 was on when Deep Space 9 was on which I liked too. In fact I recently finished that on up on Netflix. I wish B5 was on Netflix.
The main reason the Vorlons did not interfere is that both them and the Shadows were only supposed to guide, not interfere. There is also the possibility that Valen Instructed them not to deal with humans in any way until Sheridan was on Babylon 5. Kosh may have choose to ignore that with Lyta
Also they're playing in a closed time-loop. They probably don't want to improvise much lest it undo Babylon 4 getting sent back. One of the curious things about Babylon 5 is that it presents a time travel tale without actually showing the starting conditions that need fixing or how they got to getting Babylon 4 built just the steps needed to keep the loop closed.
I think the battle of the line and the surrender showcases what B5 was frequently rather good at: Making Aliens kinda alien and not just humans with noseridges...
The shot at 4:58 of the entirety of every remaining ship that could fly and in anyway fight in defense of Earth still stuns me. You have shuttles, Starfuries, Hyperion Class cruisers, hell civilian ships piloted by people with absolutely no more fucks to give; if I remember correctly the canon says number who went in to the battle was 20,000 people and at the end 200 survived. And we witness a LOT of them dying, if only by way of "ooooh big flashy ship boom!" It's an attrition rate in a battle I can't remember having actually witnessed in a television show since, well honestly the original Battlestar Galactica pilot where we see Battlestars, fighters and civilians go down in flames in huge numbers. Come to think of it later we would have a similar moment in the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels". People , knowingly, willingly throwing themselves in to the jaws of death for a true rarity, a genuinely perfectly right reason. BSG (after the Cylons launch their ambush) to try and save the colonies at any cost. DS9 to save the hope, the last remaining chance to hold the quadrant and save the Empires, and Federation. And here Bab5, as you said they fought time itself to save one more mother, one more father, one more child. Babylon 5 is honestly the best tv scifi program I've ever seen. Nothing ends truly cleanly, there are always questions in the end. Battles, politics, religion, and yes the outcomes of the various wars we witness as viewers are messy, real. Everyone is flawed (except Ivanova who is as we all know God.), everyone fails, everyone succeeds. Some start as villains to find themselves saints in the end, others start as almost pure souls who lose that purity as the world around them wears it away. No heroes, not really. Just people good and bad trying their hardest to shape the galaxy to their own vision, and we get swept along for the ride.
Oh as to why Mars would be bipassed. The longer they spent at Mars, the more Humans could escape from Earth and flee to space. The same way the humans fought at the line to slow down down the Minbari. The Minbari didn't stop to fight at Mars to not get slowed down.
It is stated quite clearly how long Sinclair was held. In one of the Season 1 episodes, he was missing for 48 hours. (I think. It's been a while) He was not found for some time after the battle however, so we don't know how long it was after the surrendered that the let Sinclair go.
Excellent video Lore i dearly love B5 it was some oc the best writing and acting in Syfy history. You really captured the essence of the series and especially the battle of the line.
A rat trapped into a corner will assault the predator head on and viciously attack in a last ditch act of defiance. This holds true for mankind as well.
Humans didn't push for answer to that question, they just glad they survived when their whole species was about to be steamrolled over. All that laid ground work for the resurgance of the Anla'Shok, since humanity's "newly discovered" status made them be welcome into the ranks.
this is apparently, at least, my third time watching this. they explained in the series that Sinclare spent 24 hours on the Minbari ship. I still love how this was hinted all through season one and even had an episode to reveal the details to the viewers before "In the Beginning" you really have to watch a second time to appreciate how many times something is foreshadowed in B5
Apparently most humans upon hearing of the Minbari's reason for surrendering sort of shrugged and dismissed it as a funny religious notion of that species that just happened to thankfully and inadvertently prove a lifesaver for humanity at the most critical moment.
One of the Minbari laws had forbid it from one Minbari from killing another Minbari. It was this law which was one of Valin's decrees which will later prevented the Minbari from committing genocide. The Minbari didn't known that the their great leader Valin was really Sinclair at the time of the Battle of the Line. Valin was aware of what was going to happen. He could not prevent a war which was going to happen in the distant future.
Londo and G’Kar and Marcus my hart feels like it has been ripped from my chest I weep so hard this story is so Beautiful and tragic more real than any other “I am and my shoes are too tight it does not matter four I have forgotten how to dance” and “When I came here I had all the choices in the world and no power now I have all the power I could want and no choice whatsoever” Londo
In regards to Mars, one of the fansites (called b5tech, but has long since fell into the internet version of disuse) described that with the Minbari advance coming closer and closer, Mars declared its independence and neutrality. It was believed in the series that this was why Mars was spared, and in universe, after the war, Earth retaliated by blockading Mars and instituting military rule in certain areas on Mars, which resulted in the Mars riots that is described later in the series. In regards to Sinclair. In season 1, a black ops guy talks about Sinclair missing for a day after he tried ramming the cruiser, and accusing Sinclair of selling out the human race when the Minbari "realized they couldn't conquer humanity" (I still love Sinclair's response about how it was a war of extermination and humanity got lucky with a second chance, and they better not squander it). In the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows (a B5 novel) we find out that Sinclair basically gets scapegoated and sitting members of the Senate openly questioning his loyalty to humanity.
Tricia O’Neill who played the Earth Alliance President in B5: In The Beginning played Captain Rachel Garrett in the ST:TNG episode Yesterday’s Enterprise. Seems like she always gets the short end of the stick when it comes to a no win scenario in sci-fi shows. Seems like she tends to get a Kobayashi Maru no matter which universe she stars in.
Sinclair/Valen would probably have told the Vorlons about the future war some time after he went to the past. They essentially would know what would happen (hence giving Delen a hint) and didn't interfere other than to make sure events happened as Sinclair told them.
UHURA: Would you look at that? (U.S.S. Excelsior on viewscreen) KIRK: My friends, the great experiment. The Excelsior, ready for trial runs. SULU: She's supposed to have transwarp drive. It is absolutely mentioned!
I think it was in that season 2 episode or so where a TV crew vom ISN visits B5 and they ask why the Minbari surrendered and the reporter thinks it was because the Minbari saw that the Humans would never stop fighting and that it was not worth it or that they could never truly defeat them.
5:06 New headcanon: the worlds in Firefly were colonized by the first wave of refugees fleeing the Battle of the Line. Earth-That-Was couldn't sustain humanity's numbers, but not from pollution or overpopulation; it's just that it was kind of hard to keep birth rates up when the Minbari are bombing everything into dust from orbit.
I cannot put in to words how much i wish it were true. It would fit perfectly and also explain why the people of the Firefly universe are such a mixture. IE colony ships packed with people speaking several languages = a society that are all multilingual just to communicate. The mixture of the ships would make perfect sense as well, older freighters looking like old warships ect. The Firefly itself when you look at the design is basically and armored drop ship :P. Right down to its primary high speed propulsion method, freighters are built for fuel economy, not massive bursts of acceleration like the Firefly class.
RIP Michael O'Hare. Considering what he went thru, it's a testament to his work ethic that we got such a great performance.
Agreed
Wait, he died?!? Jesus..Rip..now he is where no shadows fall.
@@ML-yn9yu look for a behind the scenes video of Michael Straczynski talking about him and what he did for him. very moving. It may be on RUclips
About half the caste are gone nearly ) :
Here's a link to a video where JMS talks about Michael O'Hare.
ruclips.net/video/AwyAo_YjtdM/видео.html
There's an answer to what the Humans thought the reason was in earlier dialogue.
"How many Mimbari does it take to change a light bulb?"
"None, they stop before the job is finished and won't tell you why."
That is, Humans had no idea to the point of making jokes about it.
05:42 "They weren't trying to win. They were trying to stall." Beautifully put. That observation is so powerful. Reminds me of Londo's lines of fighting for every inch of space, and of hoping to die with half as much dignity - on the night he chose to die.
Which of course that was his day to die.
I just realized it was Valen's soul because Sinclair WAS Valen, or more specifically, would become Valen.
You are the one who was (Sinclair)
You are the one who is (Delenn)
You are the one who will be (Sheridan)
Sinclaiir is Valen, Delenn is his great great grand-daughter representing the present story, and Sheridan will be the one to continue his line via Delenn for the future, eventually become Vorlon-like humans in Deconstruction of the Falling Stars.
A paradox of sorts.
Kind of like Neanderthal DNA in those of European ancestry.
Mars was bypassed as was Rabaul when the US Pacific Fleet went onto attack the Japanese islands, sometimes it’s easier to let bases ‘wither on the vine’.
No doubt Mars was bypassed as relatively trivial, and insignificant. A few million colonists, at most. And no military capability to speak of.
How do you think that fact went along with the later events?
I think one also has to take into account orbital dynamics. If Mars was on the other side of the sun from Jupiter and Earth, why not wait until you knocked out the homeworld, since there's no point in opening a jumpgate in-system? If you knock out Earth, you can then zip on past the sun to take out Mars.
I was about to make the same point, but after such a long time I was sure someone already pointed this out. It was a deliberate strategy in WWII called "island- hopping."
"If the enemy has an impenetrable fortress, endeavour to make sure he stays there." Discworld General Tacticus.
B5 also had some of the BEST speeches in a TV show that I have heard. (Even Doctor Who could take some notes)
The Delenn “if you value your lives be somewhere else!” speech (Severed Dreams episode) was quite possibly THE best speech in any sci-fi show ever. In my opinion of course.
The Promethean I’d argue G’Kar’s speech in the season 2 episode “ The long Twilight Struggle “ is the best, but that one was phenomenal.
@@pollall2793 I’ll throw in “Who am I?”.
Londo said it best The humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race
would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater
strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my
life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep, they would
pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones and then throw
themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself.
Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable
could help but be moved to tears by their courage…their stubborn
nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out
of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were
magnificent. I only hope, that when it is my time, I may die with half
as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for
two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end…they ran out of
time.
One could argue that at the Battle of the Line, it was both desperation and courage that motivated them. Humans were so desperate for more time that a few brave soles sacrificed themselves for even just a minute or 2 knowing it could save some more lives. Its interesting how the Minbari never made that distinction when they've been almost equally backed to a corner in their involvement in their war with the Shadows.
It takes courage beyond measure to go into combat at any time--but especially when you KNOW that survival simply isn't an option. 20,000 Earth Force troopers fought in The Battle Of The Line...only 200 survived. 99% casualties.
Kervin H same here. How could you not?
The humans did surrender though. Rewatch the earth presidents speech from in the beginning. But the minbari just said nah, we'll genocide ya all!!
We had our own battles of the line in our history too.
I still cry whenever I hear that monologue. It's so beautiful and tragic and back to beautiful.
Every time I hear the President's speech I get goose bumps.
I cried
@@mostlymessingabout me too
@@michelecastellotti9172 dammit. You message made me watch it again right now. 😥😓😫😢😭
@@mostlymessingabout *evil laughter*
I cry every time so powerful
Awesome tragic backstory for the Battle of the Line.
Awesome narration by Londo in "In the Beginning".
Awesome speech by the President.
Awesome call to arms and awesome courage displayed by everyone to keep humanity alive.
Awesome reveal by Delenn that Sinclair had Valen's soul, which he really really did.
Awesome confusion from everyone, including the Minbari, when they surrendered to Earth.
Awesome setup for the Babylon 4 arc to make sense.
Thank you JMS, for creating such a rich and wonderful world.
They surrendered because Delenn's vote was reversed... The vote that started the war. She told the Vorlon's that the Gray Council was tired of the war, and that they only needed a good reason to quit. Capturing Sinclair, which the Vorlon's helped Delenn in doing, was the "good reason" she needed. Good thinking on her feet, tracing the vectors to a conclusion the rest of the Gray Council would support.
Just excellent writing from JMS!
So the "humans have minbari souls" thing was only a pretext in the end.
@@refulgent_fanta I don't think Delenn knew it at the time. I don't remember watching anything about the Vorlons helping to capture Sinclair's ship from space, either.
@@Thalanox the truth points to itself.
"The answer points to itself." - Kosh
@John Chlebek
That and the fact the triluminaries were parts of Sinclair's genetically encoded comms link.
The vorlons position is hardly a mystery. The whole thing is a predestination paradox and the 2 vorlons who were on dukats ship, kosh and ulkesh, were both present when sinclair/valen made contact with the minbari after babylon 4 was sent back in time. They knew *exactly* what happened. That does not mean the vorlons did nothing. It is strongly hinted at that dukat was searching for the humans on the behest of the vorlons. They were making sure the paradox happens.
That is one of the thoughts I had on the situation. Another I had was that Phalen might have left more than two letters. Imagine being told by one of you historical greatest that you should look into this alien race called humans and while it will lead to a great sorrow for both sides it will lead to a great alliance between the two.
I'm not certain if the predestination paradox was originally intended as that episode was because the actual actor did not want to continue with the series.
"To lose this war means more than defeat. To surrender is to never go home. All of us must rise to the call, above and beyond!" - Col. TC McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
I miss that show
Desperation was their situation, bravery was their choice on how to face it
The actress that played the President was also awesome as Rachel Garrett, captain of the Enterprise.
Enterprise-C.
Not the bloody a or b
Cmon man, you gotta put that C on the end, you call yourself a Trekker? 🤣
@@_BLACKSTAR_ You got me, I'll travel back in time a la Star Trek IV to two years ago WHEN I CARED ;)
When a video is still being watched, comments and replies continue for years, perhaps even decades. Consider it a digital posthumous honour.
Dont forget that Dukhat was the Minbari's Chosen One. They believed with heart and soul, that Dukhat was the pinnacle of Minbari evolution, the greatest one since Valen, possibly even surpassing him in importance, intellect and everything else. He was the the one, they projected their hopes upon, and Humans killed him. That is why they readily went into a Holy War-Frenzy.
There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion.
The Vorlons knew what would happen up to the construction of B5 because they where there when B4 traveled back. One of the Kosh's (the 2nd one) was actually there when Sinclair transformed into Valen. Thus they had no need to do more than standing there and look cryptic.
The earth president did know the real reason why they surrendered. That's why he personally authorized the babylon project.
Surpassing?
"There is actually an episode where Sinclair gets mindproped by a human operative as to what happened and why. The official line is given by Sinclairs first love interest: The Minbare thought they couldnt beat the Line. That was the official statement EarthGov gave. However, inside the government they knew it to be false and the operative wanted to know what actually happened, believing Sinclair betrayed humankind and cooperated, giving the Minbari a more devious way to conquer Earth without a slaughter: by collusion."
Given the reaction that they had to the two ships they lost (one starting the war and the Blackstar), it's possible it was seen as a matter of 'they couldn't win the battle of the line without significant casualties, and backed off'.
Alternatively it might be combined with the concept that though the Minbari hadn't really communicated, they had only attacked military installations. Perhaps they simply believed they had made their point?
Exactly. In a culture deeply divided along caste lines, Dukhat was the only one everybody respected. He united his species in Life, and he united them in Death, for awhile anyway...
100%
I think the mistake is in thinking the Vorlons are invested in the races or even the wins and loses of each millenial war.
In many ways, at this point, the Vorlons and Shadows, are fighting an idealogical war, by proxy. They might win or lose one time around but when they do, they either take the lead and get to put their ideas into action through influence or they have to take a step back.
It's incapsulated in the Vorlons aloofness and in the Shadows secretiveness. They are content to pull the strings from behind the scenes, seeking to humiliate one another, but never getting directly involved *against* one another. Until the later stages of the Shadow war.
They each took greater liberties as time passed and each war took place, with the Vorlons altering species to be telepathic and perhaps (pure conjecture here) the Shadows making use of their own ships in battle and seeding alien worlds with said ships, were both escalations between each conflict.
I think the Vorlons would have been pissed and disgruntled had the Minbari wiped the Humans and that led to the side of Order losing the ultimate war, but would feel comfortable knowing, the Shadows would never really directly threaten them. That wasn't how the game was played.
For the Vorlons, they were above it all and for the Shadows, every defeat made them stronger. I think it was only in the Shadow war, that each side had reached a point, as the younger races started to become more independant of the whole affair, where each looked to the other as being the prime factor for this shift in influence and took the to more direct attacks, to terrify the younger races back into line.
Most Vorlons didn't care about the bit players, they cared about being right and the Shadows were the same.
The are the First One's version of the Narn and Centauri.
Very underrated comment...
Kosh cared in his own way, if you believe Lorien, then he's one of the few Vorlons who actually got it that their interference was inherently wrong. He just had no way of avoiding it without letting Shadows win. Kosh is sort of like Londo and G'kar combined, a tragic character who knew the right thing to do and couldn't until the end
@@time391 I would say that from Lyta's viewpoint the original Kosh cared about people. Maybe that's how Sheridan got through to him. "How many more dead before your satisfied?" We see his emotions in the dream sequence to Sheridan as his father. But one wonders whether he thought Sheridan going to Za'ha'dum would result in him meeting Lorien and breaking the cycle? I like to think so, but he could have just had prescience to know that Sheridan likely goes ("If you go..."), but without him along he will die.
"You said if I go to Za'ha'dum I'll die."
"Yes, now."
Too bad Sheridan didn't jump immediately when he said "Jump. Jump, now!" or he might have lived a longer life.
@@sandal_thong8631 True, I do wonder if Kosh also had a plan for Lyta to take out Talia during the inevitable Telepath war. The Vorlons were many things and one of their worst qualities was leaving weapons lying around for lesser races. Kosh at least left a nuclear weapon level telepath to take on another equivalent telepath in Talia Winters. He protected humanity from our own self-destructive impulses with that act.
@@time391 If the actress playing Talia stayed then she would have done most of the things that Lyta did. Since she left, Lyta became modified by the Vorlons to be the super-powerful telepath. Probably Marcus wouldn't have been a major character with Talia remaining Ivanova's interest.
And if Lyta (or an alternate) hadn't triggered the destruction of Za'ha'dum then the Drakh would have had 20 years or more to discover Shadow technology that had previously been denied them by their masters. So better they came out when they were beatable. Too bad they couldn't find a path of their own that wasn't based on revenge for those who fought their former masters.
Everything repeats, I keep coming back because I enjoy the show.
Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast. Once it came out the Minbari would have to see the greatest Minbari who ever lived, " the best of us" as Leneer said, was a human officer of no high rank or fame. Their best, was a human above average, but no where near the humans best. They already see themselves in decline. This would just be humiliating.
you forgot that the minbari faith sees all existance as a massive introspection of reality trying to figure itself out, finding out that humans and minbari shared souls would be to them the same as finding out they had just commited genocide on themselves. a minbari killing an other minbari was seen by all three castes as one of if not the worst taboo they could be guilty of. thats where their humiliation would stem from not from, valens status as a hybrid.
He was also the first human Anla'shok Na.
The Battle Of The Line is what happens when you cross The Battle Of Wolf 359 with Sacrifice of Angels, but with far more emotional depth.
when the couldn't run they crawled and when they couldn't crawl they found someone to carry them.. wait what?🤣🤣🤣
Do not forget they (the Vorlons and the old Minbari) needed also Babylon 4! and this station would not by build without the Baylon project.
True
I hope, if there is going to be another series from B5 franchise, it would be about B4 during the 1st Shadow War.
Then we'll get to see how Sinclair spread his love of Swedish Meatball to other species. Also how the Force of Light won against the Shadow.
There was a nicely detailed set of chapters on that in the fanfiction, Dark Mirror, which is one of the best B5 fanfics. Most of it revolves around what would happen if Earth fell at the Line, but Sinclair still needed to become Valen, and we see him in that era.
But niether the Vorlons or the Mimbari knew the humans built the B4 station until later. Sinclair was the only human onbourd and he was Valaen by that point.
Sinclair would meet Kosh as Valean in the first Shadow War. He would tell Kosh the importance of the Earth Minbari War happening so B4 would be created.
The presidents speech before the battle of the line. Holy crap, gets me every time!
At 4:18, I always loved the bit where some star fury pilots move towards their fighters the second they hear "But for every 10 minutes we can delay the military advance, several hundred more civilians may have a chance to escape to neutral territory". No hesitation!
The true meaning of "service" and "sacrifice" They all know they have no chance....but they suit up and go anyways.
Something our current 'dear leader' could learn from. Couldn't resist.
Extinction is not an option
"It Failed"
But in the Shadow War it became something greater. The last best hope for Victory.
Indeed
Hearing those intro lines change over the seasons really added weight to wait was happening and showed the evolution of the setting and the unfolding events
I'd guess a lot of people would turn to a higher power after that, because it's as close to a miracle as anyone would have ever seen.
From what I understand from reading things JMS has stated over the years only two Vorlons, Kosh and Ulkesh knew the full story of Sinclair/Valen. That some time toward the end of last Shadow War Valen had sought out these two Vorlons and told them everything. That’s the reason those two particular Vorlons where on Duhkat’s cruiser when the story began. The other Vorlons had become unconcerned about the conflicts of the Younger Races. Not really caring anymore about being teachers or guides to the younger races anymore.
JMS had or has a twitter account and does answer B5 questions from time to time on there
Plus many of his responses were listed on the Lurker's Guide, midwinter.com.
Chris sonofPear Nice to see the site still exists! :)
The battle of the line speech was epic.
Indeed, Joe writes great speeches: listen to any of G'Kar's many speeches.
"The war we fight is not against powers and principalities it is against the darkness of a soul that has lost it's way...No one knows the shape of that future...we know only that it is always born in pain."
I would add 2 words
and blood.
Love the series. But yes, this question of why the Minbari stop after going on this jihad to whip out the humans for such a petty reason would be driving the Galaxy nuts. I sympathize with the warrior caste being sent to bath in blood killing others they must have realized we're fighting more honorably then them. Then have the religious cast just say stop, never mind. And not explain.
To the Galaxy, it makes them think the Minbari, a very powerful race, have gone completely capricious and vicious almost beyond any equivalent in the lore of the Babylon 5 universe. Even the Shadows weren't supposed to have committed genocide of whole races of a whim. Hell everyone would be banding together and arming up as a co defense force against the Minbari. Narn and Centuri would sincerely sign co defense pacts against the Minbari Yould expect folks on Babylon 5 crossing hallways and leaving rooms if Minbari enter; and Minbari having to come to terms as not being seen as mature and spiritual - but as rabid animals and savages. Irredeemable in the eyes of the others. Especially give the humans in the dollar war and other actions had gained some respect among other races.
On minbar, it would easily be as bad. A whole civilization forced at a whim by the grey council into a massive bloody war. A war they would be scared by having to bloody themselves in, and then it was stopped at a whim with no explanation. Why would the grey council not be called to task?
One of the magnificent things JMS did is evolve characters and civilizations. In the end no one was quite what they seemed even to them self. Oddly in the end the two races that at the start seemed the most advanced technologicly and as a society, the Vorlon and Minbari, in the end looked worse and worse. The Minbari so hide bound and ritualized under Vorlon tutoring they were crystal in and brittle. Unable often to even sleek the truth much less face it. The Vorlon rather then aloof and insular, were manipulating everything behind the scene.
Kelly Starks The Grey Council explained it to the Warrior Caste and some flat out disbelieved them. That's why a rouge Sharlin Cruiser comes to B5 and tries to get fired upon. They wanted to reignite the war in an honourable way by getting killed by humans, because they felt their duty was not fulfilled. Stupid warriors!
The main thing isn't that they stopped.
It's that they tried at all.
Evil.
@@JoshSweetvale
The Humans were the key to change because the Minbari, Centauri and Nan were all in decline:
Kosh: "They are dying"
Sheriden: "Who? The Nan or the Centauri?"
Kosh: "Yes"
[birth of a meme btw]
Meanwhile for a thousand years every generation of Minbari were lesser than the previous generation, they too knew for a thousand years since the last Shadow war that they had stagnated and were going extinct. The Humans by their very nature of building massive and massively diverse communities were already starting to stride through the galaxy like giants, like first ones. All the other races had become dogmatic and of singular purpose in identity, behaviour, industry and religion, their ambitions were limited to this condemning them to forever turn in the same old circles with same old petty behaviours and petty wars never realising they were slaves to greater masters. Masters that had forgotten their pledge of care and forgotten how their own societies grew and so caused the stagnation in the young races by turning them into a mirror of their own petty differences.
Its not that Humans have Minbari souls, its that Minbari had Human souls
Delenn said their greater souls went to the humans.
@@timriggins70 Yeah, starting 1,000 years previous, so in the 1200's by Earth reckoning. By the time the 2200's came around there was basically no difference anymore.
The Lenear said they were weakening. The greatest souls Wernt being reborn to Minbari, and hadn't been for a long time. He also said Valentin was the "greatest of us, though he was not one if us". Valen/Sinclair the human Minbari Hybride was their greatest soul. That would be a gut punch to the religious cast.
@@KellyStarks I think it was a misinterpretation based on their failure to understand the nature of where those "souls" came from. Valen joined them 1,000 year prior and added human genes into the Minbari pool. I believe this is where the "greater souls" came from. Those with Valen's blood activated the Triluminary and the stronger they were in his bloodline (the more human genes) the stronger the Triluminary activated. As those 1,000 years wore on, the genes became diluted across the many millions of descendants, with some like Delenn still having a strong human component (allowing her own metamorphosis to take place), but most not having any at all. To the Minbari it looks as if their greatest souls, the most passionate and ambitious, were leaving. When they discover those souls in humans they think the souls must have gone there, but the truth is that their greatest souls CAME from humanity and they've all but bred them out over the last 1,000 years. The solution, of course, was a joining of the species at the other end of the 1,000 years, with Delenn and Sheridan, in the same way Valen joined the Minbari.
altrocks that would assume they saw their souls before then, before the human/Minbari hybridization, as weaker then the post Valen/Sinclair Minbari.
Souls exist in B5, hence the Soul Hunters
We know they grab something..its ne e clear if it's the soul or just the conciousness or something else.. but that's what I'm talking about..something to resonate for everyone
@@LoreReloaded Yes, souls exist but the nature of said soul remains vague
Again, not convinced with what's presented but we can agree to disagree.. it's not a biggie
Probably the psychic presence that everyone( regardless of wether they are a telepath or not) has.
Well, we know Demons exist in B5... So that's a thing...
About what the humans knew... at one point, there was a BABYLON 5 comic book series. There was also a series of B5 novels, one of which was called TO DREAM IN THE CITY OF SORROWS. Both the comics and this novel in particular have been confirmed as canon by no less that Joe Straczynski himself.
Taken together, the two sources explicitly state that the truth behind what happened was revealed to the highest echelons of EarthGov, but was immediately made a highly classified state secret. The Minbari told the truth to the new President Clark, specifically so that Commander Sinclair would be made into Sarah's first ambassador to Minbar. (Naturally, Clark and his cronies doubted, but they wanted Sinclair out of the way due to events surrounding the recent death (assassination) of President Santiago.
The whole truth was only known to a very select group of Minbari, with EarthGov secretly only knowing part of the story. As for everyone else, human or Minbari, they were kept in the dark.
Which Sarah and what does she have to do with it? ;)
I remember there was a comic between season 1 and 2 that showed that the earth government was informed about the souls. President Clarke explained to Sinclair that he didn’t believe it, but the mimbari did and that was good enough for him.
Love that ending, you're doing my favorite Sci-Fi show justice with these videos thank you
Babylon 5 was a great series.
Joe Meow You would love. The Expanse too then. They are both in my favourites of all-time .
I wish we could have a JMS Babylon 5 reboot, with the funding and production values of BSG.
Unfortunately this is not likely to happen.
So B5 must endure... all alone in the night.
I think the series as it stands is nearly perfect. Any attempt to continue or reboot it would most likely disappoint. It's the nature of TV that most shows go on too long and decline in quality because of that.
@Elron I couldn't agree with you more.
3 years after this comment, it's happening.
The Presidents speech is still one of my greatest cinematic moments ever. It gets me every time. Every damn single time!
the surrender was a really strange thing to do. The humans were at their lowest and willing to surrender unconditionally.
The Minbari could just have send: "Unconditional surrender accepted."
It might be a religious tenet that if someone recognised he's in the wrong to make amends.
And in the case of a war this results in an aggressor surrendering if his reason for the war is proven to be wrong.
IIRC the show only stated that the Minbari surrendered but not that it was an unconditional surrender.
So in that way the Minbair allowed the humans to dictate the terms of the surrender only to a degree.
If it had been an unconditional surrender EarthGov would have demanded access to Minbari technology (what nation wouldn't want access to technology hundreds of years more advanced than their own)
In my opinion they were ashamed of what they had done, and didn't want to add insult to injury by forcing earth to surrender after they had ignored their pleas for who knows how long, so they were just like "whoops our bad, we actually got the wrong address, we give up"
I think humans did not question why Mimbari surrender because they were just happy to... well be alive. And after they thought about the question Mimbari were just silence because thing done too long ago.
@@manuelaparcedo417 LMAO...."whoops our bad, we actually got the wrong address, we give up"
my guess is the first year or two after the war a lot of humans just assumed that was what they sent, but the translator f'd it up
after that they never got a real answer when asked why, because the Minbari never tell the whole truth
They didn't really surrender. They didn't give up their ships and became prisoners of war. They stopped shooting, said we surrender and went away. Surrender seems to mean something different to Minbari.
So that's why Mars is so pissed throughout the duration of the show, no one thinks they're important enough to attack.
I cried when I heard the President's speech. Such a great show!
I'm sorry but if you point a gun at someone and use invasive sensors you can't get particularly angry is someone shoots at you
What I don't understand is why Surrender. Why not just a cease fire, or accept the Human Surrender. If I had to guess, I would say a Mimbari Surrender connotes something deeper as if they were not only ashamed of letting it go that far, but also that they needed to be punished in some way. The fact that they did surrender would mean that in one way or another Earth could dictate terms. The Mimbari or the show for that matter didn't say unconditional Surrender for the Mimbari so there really isn't enough info to go on as to how people really felt. IMO
I know, yeah. If EVER a conflict allowed for a CONDITIONAL surrender, it was this one. Claiming it as UNCONDITIONAL raises many questions.
Also, they *weren't* punished in any significant way AFAIK, and I find it difficult to believe the humans wouldn't want *some* retaliation.
@BaseDeltaZero A first season episode with Sinclair had him acting as a mole for a group of people that were angered by the Surrender and he said the victory 'tasted like ash'. Remember? The was a glimpse at the people that wanted retribution or retaliation. The show didn't go into it as much as it could have though.
And as far as we know the Humans were in no position to make the Minbari pay reparations or anything. Or maybe they weren't willing to? I guess a condition Earth did have was the Minbari's involvement in the Babylon Project. But yeah, the surrender I guess shows that the Minbari still didn't understand the Humans and did not think that their action would raise a lot of questions on Earth.
@Doug C
Good point, they could have called a ceasefire.
I can think of a few dubious reasons why they didn't.
1. It was the quickest way to stop both sides fighting.
2. The concern that the humans might not believe a ceasefire, surrender is more definitive.
3. The Mimbari or the Warrior caste might not have a concept of a ceasefire.
4. It worked as a plot device the foster a big galaxy wide mystery 😊.
5:05 - This is why I love your channel, and your sense of humor. Keep making great vids!
Brilliant! I love Babylon 5. The Earth Minbari War is so Anime in nature. Slaughter after slaughter after slaughter... then, they stop.
For all the prayers you give this show for being so well thought out and executed I can’t help but think that a few of the major plot movers were rather clumsily conceived.
These and some other B5 scenes are the most touching ever seen in any series or movies.
The audio, the music and the spoken words in these important moments are for me still unsurpassed.
I think at some point there was an implication that the Clarke administration pushed the idea that Earth won the Earth-Mimbari War - an ISN interviewer responds to a line from Sheridan about how they'd lost the war, and would be doomed if it repeated with the question "But... we won the war, didn't we?" I headcannon this as a big movement of historical revisionism: humans can't imagine why the Mimbari would have surrendered, and so they assume that they must have run out of steam, and that the Battle of the Line destroyed their will to fight.
I wanted to say thanks to Lore Reloaded for these videos. It's a joy watching them and it really helps me to get a better understanding and to refresh my memory of one of my favorite series. Thank you!
B5 is the best story telling arc in all genres for me and made other writers take note. It's story was well ahead of it's time and the episodes for the War Without End and the re-mergence of B4 in the first season are fantastic and well written. Even the books of Lore are fantastic especially the ones with the Technomages, Vir Cotto rise to Emperor,and Alfred Besters life are my favourite titles of all time.
The Minbari realized the humans had a superior gelato machine.
That damn speech just brings out the onions...
Yeah, I think the Vorlons didn't interfere A: out of their general dismissiveness towards overt interference with younger races (this would change obviously) and B: predestination paradox; they ultimately had no choice in the matter; what will have had to have had happened would need to have happened as it would have had happened.
I've been watching this series for the first time thanks to these videos.
It's been very interesting and I am quite amazed at how such an apparently obscure show is so richly portrayed and well executed.
"the last, bnest hope for peace. It failed."
This line never fails to get to me.
Wouldn't say it failed...it did succeed: just not the way the builders intended.
Sorta like science; you set out to prove 1 thing and find something completely unexpected.
Several hundred per ten minutes... so bleak.
At times I wonder if writers realise the actual scales involved in cases like this.
A colony destroyed, thousands lost...
Wait, what? Thousands? An entire planetary population, thousands, not tens of thousands, how about tens of millions?
If we took one eighth of the earth's total population (about one billion) and divided it equally across one hundred worlds (colonies), each should have a population of around ten million...
I understand there must be a reason why death tolls are always so wonky, but you find this everywhere in sci-fi.
I think the best example is the "brutal" fifty year occupation of Bajor, and while any death is a tragedy, compared to real life atrocities here on earth... it doesn't even stack up against the death rate of us deaths to car crashes, and chairman mao's great spring forward claimed far more lives giving the unintended side effect of making the Cardassians look much better than they are claimed to be which, in turn, makes it look like negative propaganda from the Federation and Bajorans when clearly it's not meant to be.
In closing, I really wish writers of sci-fi, fantasy, and well... just in general, would close this loop and at least attempt to use realistic numbers, but I get that they don't, and likely never will.
Completely agree. I always wondered about the lack of realistic casualties being portrayed on this show and others. Hundreds and thousands only. I think i read somewhere that the earth minbari war only furnished 250,000 human deaths. I just don’t think that’s a high enough number if your talking about a total war of annihilation.
The problems is is that hundreds and thousands are within the human scope of compassion.
when a thousand people die it's a tragedy.
when a billion die it's a statistic.
Right?
We're annihilating the billions, BILLIONS, of people within your species, one hundred at a time...
Even in grand scale stuff like mass effect, a couple billion die across all species leaving potentially hundreds of billions alive...
I get that when you start talking really big numbers they start to lose their impact, but seriously?
Low balling like this only makes everything look much less dire, or... worst case... that the writers don't actually understand what they are writing, or at least that they didn't bother to consider scale when writing.
I mean... my God... I could actually see them saying, "They annihilated earth, and killed everyone... hundreds of thousands died..." then the exchange;
"Oh, so we managed to evacuate most of the civilians!"
"No, they killed everyone. It was a massacre!"
"But... you only said hundreds of thousands..."
"It was GENOCIDE! They killed hundreds, maybe thousands..."
"Ok, clearly you're in shock and are completely distraught. You should talk to a ships counselor, and... is there someone else in charge I could talk to?"
*rocking back and forth in the fetal position, eyes wide with shock, face twisted into a rictus mask of horror* "hundreds, thousands, all those children... so many... hundreds, thousands, all dead... all dead, dead, dead..." *now just repeating words, as though in a trance* "hundreds, thousands, dead, all dead, genocide, hundreds, thousands..."
***
"What's that ones story?"
"Oh... poor thing... only survivor at a Hollywood writers seminar... keeps repeating the same stuff over and over again..."
"Ok... so why the admirals jacket? How'd that happen?"
"Well, you know, that's what one does when somebody's in shock, so I just gave 'em my coat and... well, poor thing... anyways, got something to report soldier?"
"Do I ever!"
"Well, millions are dying, no need for suspense, out with it."
"Total surrender."
"Yes, we've been broadcasting that for days now..."
"No, they're surrendering to us!"
"Oh, good. Wait... what? This had better not be a joke troop..."
"No Admiral, I guess they just got tired of beating on the smallest kid in class."
"Ahhh... so their fists do get tired... Launch an immediate counter offensive, quick, while we have the advantage!"
"What advantage?"
"None. I just wanted to say something like that before this all ended... you can only take so much of an ass kicking you know..."
"Yeah... I got you... so, any *real* estimates on the death toll admiral?"
"Yes..." *in a solemn tone* "nearly a billion dead, good thing they surrendered now, or the count would be eight times that..."
***
Yeah... that's how I'd imagine an exchange really going down in this situation...
Many of those colonies would maybe have marginal teraformed or pressurized domes, I guess. But this war did always seem to have a pretty small scale of deaths. In contrast, the Covenant War in Halo had about 30 billion human deaths in total, after 28 years.
The Minbari specifically went after military targets first, with the intention of coming back for the civilian populations later to begin systematic genocide. It might be that 'thousands' were lost in each *engagement*, as well.
With the capture of *Sinclair,* the *Minbari* began a sequence of events that would eventually turn *Sinclair* into _"a _*_Minbari_*_ not born of _*_Minbari."_* In other words, *Sinclair* goes back in time _"a thousand years"_ to become *Valen* himself. _That's_ why the *_Triluminary_* glowed so brightly.
Watching these videos again again reminds me how impressive those Nial fighters are. That's a lot of firepower in a small package.
It wasnt just Delenn who decided on the Holy War. She casted thr deciding vote, but others have also casted their vote. They decided that it was a Holy War.
She made an emotional decision, not an idiotic one. an irrational decision also is not the same as idiotic. Besides Dhukath was the pinnacle of minvari breeding. He unified two castes and led like the greatest leader after Valen. HE was both religious and military leader. In olden days that automatically meant "holy". And when two castes of three go crazy, the entire society goes. Just remember the damage done by alliance policies and a few idiotic politicans in july 1914. A war, that by all accounts should have been prevented took tens of millions of lives in battles whose only reason was to kill as many ofr as little as posible. Sounds familiar? Can you compare that to the minbari holy war?
I’ve always linked those examples, remember the Austro-Hungarians didn’t even like the Archduke
It was idiotic.
The Grey Council's lives were sacrosanct. I know Lore does not like these comparisons, but it was the same as the Tribunes in Rome. ( Mark Antony's job the Guy who married Cleopatra, not Jennifer Lopez. ) So killing one, is a religious act of sacrilege. Or Imagine some one killing a Medieval pope, Basically by definition the MInbari, do not separate temple and state
That specific person killed was also seen as the greatest living Minbari, and the spiritual successor to Valen. So, it would be like if everyone was 1 religion first, and then they killed them.
There’s a very good reason they would’ve bypassed Mars. Given the orbits of earth and Mars it is highly unlikely that they would be lined up at the time of the invasion. So they would have to pick one and then the other, and they decided to start with earth.
This show is great. I got to rewatch it sometime soon!
B5 is just fantastic
Great Video, B5 is one of my favourite Sci - Fi series of all time I always found the mental inflexibility of the Minbari weird for such an "advanced" race.. though maybe in their past the Vorlons had more of a tight grip on the tiller, explaining their advanced tech.
Not really,as advanced as the US is, think about now inflexible we are, we don't think any differently than we did 100 years ago.
@@travisfoster6473 I'd say you are giving the USA too little credit when you consider the cultural changes in the last decade or so let alone the last century, gay marriage, trans rights, me too for good or for Ill a lot of social change is going on.
Gareth Mitchell The Minbari are a 100% product of the strong order philosophy of the Vorlons. After Valen/Sinclair came with B4 to help in the hour of need and defeated the Shadows, he restructured the society as the Vorlons wished him to do. No wonder they were so set in their ways they didn't dare to question their decisions once the dice fell. Only extraordenary events that were in line with Valens teachings would convince them to change course. That's the kind of inflexibility the Shadows hate in the Vorlons.
@@pcuimac fair point I hadn't considered that, which seems a bit stupid considering lol
IO was passed as well, stated in s2e20, the long twilight struggle when Dr. Frank tries and warns G'akar
B5 was the most wonderful show!!
Sinclair's lover, presented in the movie The Gathering, makes the statement that implies her belief is the Minbari surrendered because those of the line defeated them
Here is the thing on why the Vorlons don't act when to species fight and why the Shadows do. It is all about philosophy.
The Shadows believe that the path for evolution is war, so in order to help others species to "evolved" they start fights. The Vorlons believe the opposite of this and they think the interface is bad. The only reason they get into the path of the shadows it is because they think the shadows are wrong and need to be stop.
So that what explain why they did such lukewarm interference into the Mimbari/human war.
also through valen they would already known the outcome of the war and how it prop up the humans, minbari and others in there favor in the next shadow war, honestly i think the vorlons might even have orchestrated the war itself
Dark Kronis It could be a simple act, like teaching the Minbari Warrior caste to show strength when meeting new species, would be all they needed to do.
That one act would be all the interference the Vorlon’s would need to do, since it was those action that lead to the Humans to initially fire on the first Minbari ship they met.
One way to look at the "Holy War" thing is to think about how different an alien psyche can be to human. Different cultures do tend to have different understanding to words. To Minbari most things in life were sacred (and thus holy), even woohoo (good job Sheridan for ruining that).
Additionally the "Holy" part of their war is something that it was due to humans sneaky attack to a convoy of Minbari ships that hailed them with their biggest sign of respect: Gun ports open. Also Dhukat being the leader of Minbari and moreso their spiritual compass, having him killed basically turned the fanaticism of the Minbari all the way to 11, essentially declaring Holy War.
PS: Every time I see battle scenes from In the Beginning, I cry...
In the Beginning depict Duhkat dying in Delenn's arms, at which point she screams "He was the best of us. Kill them. Kill them all. No mercy." The minion then runs off to tell the Grey Council to start the Holy War. This seems very odd because she was with Duhkat when he ordered the gun ports closed. It's even more odd because the Soul Hunter that came for Delenn's soul, a little early on the station, stated that a large number of Soul Hunters had gone to save Duhkat's soul and that the Minbari made a wall of dead to prevent them.
It's a puzzle to me as to why the Minbari would go after the humans for making a mistake instead of the Soul Hunters who had tried to stop Duhkat's soul being reborn.
4:45 I consistently get tears in my eyes when the pilots stand up.
"We do these things that others may live."
It is my understanding that the reason the Vorlonsl mentioned nothing is because when Sinclair was sent back that the Earth/Minbari War had to happen. For him to become Veylin.
Who had the best story arc in b5? for me its a toss up between londo and g'kar
Agreed
Marcus and Franklin the best (the scene of them going to Mars is epic)
I think Londo and G'Kar together is the best the show had to offer, not just in writing but in the perfect acting of Peter Jurassic and Andreas Katsulas.
Londo, pretty much hands down. Also G'Kar and Vir were also integral to it.
I loved the elevator scene between G'Kar and Londo
Londo "Goto Babyion 5 they said, it'll be an easy position, they said." Londo sighs "I hate my life"
G'Kar "So do I."
Londo "SHUT UP!"
lol!
In the Beginning was definitely the best of the B5 movies......although Thirdspace and Call to Arms were both very good, too.
Have to admit, I was really waiting for this episode.
Vorlons needed E-M war, because they needed Babylon 4 and Valen, no E-M War no Babylon 4, and Sinclar is not found by the boneys
I've wondered if the Vorlons were more talkative prior to their encounter with Babylon 4 a thousand years ago. Through that station, Zathras, and Sinclair, the Vorlons would have foreknowledge of events to come a thousand years in the future and knowing that anything they might say or do could alter this future, they became paranoid and went cryptic in order to preserve their advantage
Yes.
04:14, that pilot right there that surrenders to the Moment of Tock, that never fails to gut-punch me.
very powerful seen with the earth president speech.
I think most Human's tried to not think about "Why" and were just relieved.
Babylon 5 was such a great series! I watched all of it always looking forward to the next episode. I like the way it mysteries that were eventually revealed only to be given new mysteries. I like the way some episode continued from one to the other and some episodes were stand-alone stories. It went where Star Trek wouldn't go, like showing the real cost of war like casualties. B5 was on when Deep Space 9 was on which I liked too. In fact I recently finished that on up on Netflix. I wish B5 was on Netflix.
B5 is on Prime Video.
Tubi
@@susanlewis4301 My comment was from 4 years ago. It wasn't on Tubi then. But I am watching on Tubi now.
@@Zomby1Woof that’s great. I’m always glad to connect someone with such an awesome show.😊
The main reason the Vorlons did not interfere is that both them and the Shadows were only supposed to guide, not interfere. There is also the possibility that Valen Instructed them not to deal with humans in any way until Sheridan was on Babylon 5. Kosh may have choose to ignore that with Lyta
Also they're playing in a closed time-loop. They probably don't want to improvise much lest it undo Babylon 4 getting sent back.
One of the curious things about Babylon 5 is that it presents a time travel tale without actually showing the starting conditions that need fixing or how they got to getting Babylon 4 built just the steps needed to keep the loop closed.
I think the battle of the line and the surrender showcases what B5 was frequently rather good at: Making Aliens kinda alien and not just humans with noseridges...
The shot at 4:58 of the entirety of every remaining ship that could fly and in anyway fight in defense of Earth still stuns me. You have shuttles, Starfuries, Hyperion Class cruisers, hell civilian ships piloted by people with absolutely no more fucks to give; if I remember correctly the canon says number who went in to the battle was 20,000 people and at the end 200 survived. And we witness a LOT of them dying, if only by way of "ooooh big flashy ship boom!"
It's an attrition rate in a battle I can't remember having actually witnessed in a television show since, well honestly the original Battlestar Galactica pilot where we see Battlestars, fighters and civilians go down in flames in huge numbers. Come to think of it later we would have a similar moment in the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels". People , knowingly, willingly throwing themselves in to the jaws of death for a true rarity, a genuinely perfectly right reason.
BSG (after the Cylons launch their ambush) to try and save the colonies at any cost.
DS9 to save the hope, the last remaining chance to hold the quadrant and save the Empires, and Federation.
And here Bab5, as you said they fought time itself to save one more mother, one more father, one more child.
Babylon 5 is honestly the best tv scifi program I've ever seen. Nothing ends truly cleanly, there are always questions in the end. Battles, politics, religion, and yes the outcomes of the various wars we witness as viewers are messy, real. Everyone is flawed (except Ivanova who is as we all know God.), everyone fails, everyone succeeds. Some start as villains to find themselves saints in the end, others start as almost pure souls who lose that purity as the world around them wears it away. No heroes, not really. Just people good and bad trying their hardest to shape the galaxy to their own vision, and we get swept along for the ride.
Oh as to why Mars would be bipassed. The longer they spent at Mars, the more Humans could escape from Earth and flee to space. The same way the humans fought at the line to slow down down the Minbari. The Minbari didn't stop to fight at Mars to not get slowed down.
One more thing: Ya gotta love "Star Killer", right? Up the Mimbari!
It is stated quite clearly how long Sinclair was held. In one of the Season 1 episodes, he was missing for 48 hours. (I think. It's been a while)
He was not found for some time after the battle however, so we don't know how long it was after the surrendered that the let Sinclair go.
Excellent video Lore i dearly love B5 it was some oc the best writing and acting in Syfy history. You really captured the essence of the series and especially the battle of the line.
A rat trapped into a corner will assault the predator head on and viciously attack in a last ditch act of defiance.
This holds true for mankind as well.
He wasn't just her mentor. He was respected by all three castes.
Humans didn't push for answer to that question, they just glad they survived when their whole species was about to be steamrolled over.
All that laid ground work for the resurgance of the Anla'Shok, since humanity's "newly discovered" status made them be welcome into the ranks.
this is apparently, at least, my third time watching this. they explained in the series that Sinclare spent 24 hours on the Minbari ship. I still love how this was hinted all through season one and even had an episode to reveal the details to the viewers before "In the Beginning" you really have to watch a second time to appreciate how many times something is foreshadowed in B5
Apparently most humans upon hearing of the Minbari's reason for surrendering sort of shrugged and dismissed it as a funny religious notion of that species that just happened to thankfully and inadvertently prove a lifesaver for humanity at the most critical moment.
How can you pass judgement on a race that has different perpectives & values than ours?
I love the Firefly reference at 5:05
One of the Minbari laws had forbid it from one Minbari from killing another Minbari. It was this law which was one of Valin's decrees which will later prevented the Minbari from committing genocide. The Minbari didn't known that the their great leader Valin was really Sinclair at the time of the Battle of the Line. Valin was aware of what was going to happen. He could not prevent a war which was going to happen in the distant future.
Londo and G’Kar and Marcus my hart feels like it has been ripped from my chest I weep so hard this story is so Beautiful and tragic more real than any other “I am and my shoes are too tight it does not matter four I have forgotten how to dance” and “When I came here I had all the choices in the world and no power now I have all the power I could want and no choice whatsoever” Londo
In regards to Mars, one of the fansites (called b5tech, but has long since fell into the internet version of disuse) described that with the Minbari advance coming closer and closer, Mars declared its independence and neutrality. It was believed in the series that this was why Mars was spared, and in universe, after the war, Earth retaliated by blockading Mars and instituting military rule in certain areas on Mars, which resulted in the Mars riots that is described later in the series.
In regards to Sinclair. In season 1, a black ops guy talks about Sinclair missing for a day after he tried ramming the cruiser, and accusing Sinclair of selling out the human race when the Minbari "realized they couldn't conquer humanity" (I still love Sinclair's response about how it was a war of extermination and humanity got lucky with a second chance, and they better not squander it). In the novel To Dream in the City of Sorrows (a B5 novel) we find out that Sinclair basically gets scapegoated and sitting members of the Senate openly questioning his loyalty to humanity.
Tricia O’Neill who played the Earth Alliance President in B5: In The Beginning played Captain Rachel Garrett in the ST:TNG episode Yesterday’s Enterprise. Seems like she always gets the short end of the stick when it comes to a no win scenario in sci-fi shows. Seems like she tends to get a Kobayashi Maru no matter which universe she stars in.
Sinclair/Valen would probably have told the Vorlons about the future war some time after he went to the past. They essentially would know what would happen (hence giving Delen a hint) and didn't interfere other than to make sure events happened as Sinclair told them.
UHURA: Would you look at that?
(U.S.S. Excelsior on viewscreen)
KIRK: My friends, the great experiment. The Excelsior, ready for trial runs.
SULU: She's supposed to have transwarp drive.
It is absolutely mentioned!
I think it was in that season 2 episode or so where a TV crew vom ISN visits B5 and they ask why the Minbari surrendered and the reporter thinks it was because the Minbari saw that the Humans would never stop fighting and that it was not worth it or that they could never truly defeat them.
5:06 New headcanon: the worlds in Firefly were colonized by the first wave of refugees fleeing the Battle of the Line. Earth-That-Was couldn't sustain humanity's numbers, but not from pollution or overpopulation; it's just that it was kind of hard to keep birth rates up when the Minbari are bombing everything into dust from orbit.
I cannot put in to words how much i wish it were true. It would fit perfectly and also explain why the people of the Firefly universe are such a mixture. IE colony ships packed with people speaking several languages = a society that are all multilingual just to communicate.
The mixture of the ships would make perfect sense as well, older freighters looking like old warships ect.
The Firefly itself when you look at the design is basically and armored drop ship :P. Right down to its primary high speed propulsion method, freighters are built for fuel economy, not massive bursts of acceleration like the Firefly class.
@@tothethreshold.9965 There is no FTL in Firefly. Sorry, wouldn't work.
@@wiredforstereo Of course, there's FTL in Firefly. It's the movie Serenity that takes place in one massive solar system.