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Babylon 5 Lore : Destruction of the Black Star
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2018
- What's up Lore Masters,
Hope you enjoy this battle breakdown of the destruction of the black star..
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Lore: if the Minbari sensors were so powerful how the hell did they not know there were survivors on that ship?
Me: forget that. i want to know how they didn't detect the nuclear warheads planted in the asteroid field.
Son of a.. that's a /great/ question
Same thought, even Geiger counters would detect them, unless very heavily shielded, which they wouldn't be because they were repurposed warheads, not mines with countermeasures.
But still, the blinking lights should have been a warning just by themselves.
At a guess, interference from the asteroids themselves and/or the debris field. Also, it's entirely possible that the Black Star's crew (or its CO, at any rate) had a serious case of tunnel vision: they had a disabled EarthForce ship in their sights, and they didn't think to check for any surprises. Enhanced senses (or sensors) are only useful if you pay attention.
To be fair, there would likely have been warheads scattered around the area from when the other nuclear armed ships were destroyed.
Unlike chemical explosives, if they're not deliberately set off, being in another explosion generally just renders them inoperable.
Sean Heath Would have loved to see this battle from the perspective of the minbari crew. I think the crew did notice the nukes but perhaps they believed their jamming systems were sufficient to stop any signal from detonating the weapons.
The Lexington wasn’t “pretending” to be hurt, she genuinely was mostly disabled and a ship in distress at that point.
Even pretending to be hurt isn't cowardly, if you are going to continue the fight. They needed time to formulate a plan. They weren't going to get mercy from the Blackstar either way.
Schwarzkopf was an AMERICAN general! How have you not heard of him? He commanded our forces in the Gulf War!
... did I do it? Am I in the cool "rag on Lore Reloaded" crowd?
Robert G dude, thank you. I love the lore but man i hate when kids don’t remember the 1990s.
Seriously, I'm not even American and I can remember Stormin' Norman. Then again, I was a teenager at the time, and it was all over the news in Canada.
Apart from the historic aspects, it's not Russian, but German and literally translated it would mean "Blackhead".... also it's the name of a company producing Shampoo, hair dye and such. I wonder if the founder of Schwarzkopf (the company) was related to the General.
Yeah, that bugged me at first... I have always assumed Lore was a teenager like me in the 90's and definitely would have remembered good 'ol Stormin Norman Swarzkopf.
Also it's a German name.
"Your defeat of the Blackstar was a cowardly move" "Your ship was returning to destroy a crippled ship and leave no survivors!"
Butt hurt Warrior Caste strike again...
And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to Hell! (different episode but Sheridan had some epic one liners!)
It's the thought that counts.
Torlonus lol
It's funny how well that quote (directed to the Centauri) works here too. Speaking of that episode, after seeing John Vickery as the quite creepy Mr. Welles, Neroon doesn't seem quite as bad :)
Sterns died of a condition often known as "Pine Syndrome" in which the CO of a starship will die if exposed to a more important character's plot.
Actually, in In The Beginning you see Sterns mention in a line just prior to the Battle of the Line he was near retirement anyway. I just sort of inferred he retired after having survived The Earth Minbari War.
Words cannot describe the love I have for this comment...
@@FascistPastry Oh nooo. You never mention retirement before engaging in a potentially dangerous situation.
Genocidal conquerors always seem surprised at the lengths people will go to to avoid being slaughtered. I don't think this was a cowardly move on Sheridan's part. He was just fighting them like they were fighting the humans.
True. Saying it was a cowardly act is stupid.
boxleitner made some money...
The Minbari just didn’t like finding out that when our backs are against the wall humans will become progressively more savage in defense of our homes and our lives
Didn't the Mimbari flyer pretty much do the same thing as the human cruiser? They both pretended to be defenceless only to draw the enemy into a trap. The only difference is one was pretending to surrender and the other was pretending to be hurt. Arguably, lying about surrender should be more dishonest then pretending to be more hurt then you are, especially when the humans would be killed anyway. I think the Mimbari are just sore losers.
The intent of the attacker means something to.. The Alliance wanted to capture them, the minbari wanted to straight up murder them
Very true.
Yeah calling it cowardice was just warrior caste hypocrisy and even other non-warrior Minbari though they where too full of themselves. The warrior case just hate to loose, they can tolerate to be bested by a superior fighter in single combat, but to loose to an inferior foe due to trickery really tilt them (and it happened to a the flagship of all things), even if they employ the exact same tactics themselves, because they love to win.
This is echoed elsewhere in the movie as well. The warriors where dragging their heels on investigating rumors of the Shadows returning, the prospect of fighting horrible space demons didn't scare them obviously, no no, just a waste of time, they obviously where just myths despite them having electronic records of the previous war. When the chance came to fight a technologically inferior race instead presented itself however they enthusiastically where all for it.
Lying about surrendering in order to set up an ambush is, in fact, a war crime in real life. Makes sense if you think about it: If people kept doing that, nobody would trust a request to parlay meaning nobody ever gets to surrender, which is bad for everyone.
@@Sherool the other castes were only told that he planted nukes on asteroids and sent out a distress call to lure the Black Star in. Without the context I don't blame them
The line “I never wanted to live forever anyway” is The slight twist on the question “do you want to live forever” which is said in Starship Troops. But it originates from a US Marine during WW1 as he charged into no-mans land to rally his fellows. The US forces were often noted for being stupidly brave when they entered WW1.
The Ozzies loved the Yanks though. They loved that the Yankee still had the gusto to go right at 'em
The highest ranking Australian, Sir John Monash, deliberately preferred to have American and Australian units working together, with the Australian units to accomplish specific objectives and the Americans to make up the numbers and provide their strength and enthusiasm, a rare commodity in the war at this stage. With the Aussies striking vulnerable points with practiced precision, and the Americans following up en masse and shooting everything that moved, they quickly secured their objective.
Monash was a genius level tactician and the brilliant success of his small US-Australian offensive more or less created modern combined arms. Other officers started using his tactics and the war quickly began to turn against Germany.
1Sgt. Daniel Daly. Awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor twice, and should’ve been awarded a third but they didn’t think people would believe one man capable of that much heroism.
His quote was actually "For Christ's sake, men-come on! Do you want to live forever?"
Wait wait wait... it was a cowardly attack to destroy the Blackstar with a nuke while pretending to be damaged to lure them into a trap... but destroying an earth-fleet with a hyperspace window because they were closing in on a Mimbari fighter that was pretending to be damaged to lure them into a trap was entirely honorable? WTF??? Hypocrite much?
I am beginning to hate the Mimbari more and more.
Every nation does this, even irl. In WW1, the German Empire broke established rules of war and introduced chemical warfare to the trenches.
Later when America ebtered the war, they used pump action shotguns that were so effective in trench fighting they called them "Trench Sweepers". The Germans immediately cried foul play and dishonorable.
@@Optimusprime240 plus unrestricted submarine warfare
also a note about the Mimbari being mad and calling it a dishonorable act: the creator of the show JMS points out the hypocrisy of this statement given the Blackstar was doing the exact same thing luring earth ships into predetermined locations and ambushing them before they could react
Yeah, the warrior caste no longer really holding up to their ideals is a recurring pattern in the show.
Honestly, the Minbari can go f--- themselves if they're going to whine about the Blackstar, considering they attack and/or destroy defenseless enemies without any remorse. Off topic, though, why do half the posts I see online call them the Mimbari? Please learn to spell, it's Minbari with an N.
@@CanuckGod Ortography. Usually m goes before p or b in several languages.
@Podemos URSS Fair enough, but unless they have a specific localized dub of their own language that changes the name of the Minbari to something other than the English version, it's not correct, it's just lazy, orthography be damned. As it is, I'd wager that a sizeable percentage of posters are native English speakers who just aren't paying enough attention. In any event, I'll take off my grammar Nazi hat and leave it alone for the time being...
star trek fans have problems with emotional responses.
Schwartzkopf. after the US general in the gulf war... the black one in German..family had connections with the Linberg baby... Also asteroid fields are huge
Gotcha
Schwarzkopf literally translates to "black head"
As in: A head full of black hair.
It is actually a rather popular brand of hair care-products here in Germany. Which always made the name hilarious to me. Just imagine "EAS Head&Shoulders standing ready"
Lore Reloaded I wonder if the Sun ran that headline in Universe. Sorry that is for the Brits
Wyrd80, Whereas my family name was translated from the German Wiess. Which from my research referred to White hair. Wiess meaning White....
Wasn't this same ship in the episode GROPOS? Or was it another Nova-class?
Uh, dude, Norman Schwartzkopf was an American hero during the 90's.
Ahh cool...its also a German name..making the joke even funnier
Lore Reloaded Stormin' Norman. Still, comforting to see the RUclips comment section is still the same...
captmoroni I tried to give him a link to help him pronounce the name. I also believe The Lore Master was too young when Desert Storm happened.
General "Stormin'" Norman Schwartzkopf was the commanding general at Fort Lewis, Washington (now Joint Base Lewis McCord) when my brother served there during the late 1980s. They called him, "the alphabet guy". He became famous as commander of allied troops during Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm in 1990/1991.
Yeah, I was about to say "Really? German names are Russian now?" As I recall from my youth, his name was in the news a lot at the time of the Gulf War, even in Canada.
Game: John Nukem Sheridan has entered the game.
Rest of the players: aww hell
This is the best comment lmao
He also spaced a Teddy Bear.
Hey, if you're gonna die, bang the enemy a few times first. Amirite?
It was a tactical ambush, i cant see any coward move. Its the Art of War.
How do you feel about killing people who cant defend themselves ?
@@LoreReloaded
After killing tenthousands of people the minbari complain about that. War is hell and it was a primary and military target so what. Even in real life no war crime.
What you feel is irrelevant, your job in a war is to end the enemies militarys existance.
If they are on a WARSHIP they are valid targets, defenseless or not, noone forced them to serve ona Warship going to war. ( I hope)
Those who have set up the original trap have complained they did fall into an other trap. Aha...
Also no warrior is defenseless. If you out-think them that is not different from you being stronger by pure force.
Hungarians were known for similar tactics of ambushes. In our way we made it look like a complete chaotic retreat so the enemy started to follow us with completely broken line. Then you run into a well prepared place where your sideforces attack the enemy and your running people turn around in the saddle to shoot arrows while still running. Without these kind of acts you never gonna spare manpower in wars. Why would you ever wage a dumb war? They killed soldiers - not civilians. They killed enemies who came to annihilate them. What more you want?
Its like the Bismark. It's too valuable a target not to destroy it
The Blackstar having escorts is a continuity error. Sheridan explains the battle to Ivanova and states the Blackstar had three heavy destroyers with it. The scene from "In the Beginning" only shows the Blackstar though.
Right..that's the dialogue I reference
Lore Reloaded
Sheridan is famed for destroying the Blackstar and not the Blackstar fleet... so to me the Blackstar was alone as some sort of behind-enemy-lines harrassment or recon to scout the system. Or if any other source proves their existence they might have returned after Earthforce got rescued and only found the wreckage of the Blackstar. Would explain why Earthforce didn't get their hands on the wreck... the destroyers pulverised it into slag so that their technology doesn't fall into enemy hands.
There was unresolved issues from that line. The remaining ships may have been destroyed by one of the bombs that drifted out of range, and were not used.
@@Tezunegari "only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Mimbari fleet" highly suggests it was the Black Star fleet
Lightning Count offered the suggestion that the battle had one more stage. After Sheridan destroyed the Blackstar, Earthforce ships finally responded to his distress call. With these additional ships he set a second ambush and lured in the Blackstar's escorts with another distress call, and maybe they were wondering where the Blackstar went. In this way it remains complaint with both movie and series as he managed to destroy several more cruisers with little loss of life. This would also make more of an actual victory since instead of losing 3-4 ships to destroy one Minbari War cruiser, albeit an important one, he managed to destroy more tonnage then he lost. Because while Earthforce would destroy Minbari warcruisers in the future, that was a feat no one would be able to do again.
Inconsistencies and weirdness: Remember that we see the battle within a narration by Londo. He wasn't there - he tells the children what he had heard from centauri intelligence and the media. In the context of a story meant to entertain and convey a rough idea of what had happened, not as an accurate historical account. In universe "In the Beginning" is basically a fairy tale! ;)
Sheridan's version was only talked about, but he has first person knowledge. That one might cause less raised eyebrows.
Lol the Centauri are so corrupt I'd figure their Secret Intelligence Services are just as effective as the KGB - You hear what you're supposed to hear. So if you fuck up it can be used against you.
The line from Starship Troopers was actually a real quote from a Marine sergent during the Battle of Belleau Wood
indeed
And the Flash Gordon movie. It's not like it's a difficult quote to think of independently.
As my Dad told me, "There is no 'fair' in fighting. There's a winner and there's a loser. You DON'T want to be the loser."
Depends who you're fighting. The Humans and Minbari hadn't really known each other pre-contact and when the fighting broke out all they knew of each other was on the battlefield.
_My dad also told me: "Never start a war my son, but always end it."_
The real traitor to Earth was William Clarke. Not once but twice..."Scorched Earth."
I would agree
You missed: "Good morning gentlemen. This is your wakeup call. BOOM!" One of the best lines in television history.
Could we ascribe any differences in the depiction of this battle between "In the Beginning" and Sheridan's description of it in "Points of Departure" to the fact that the events shown in "In the Beginning" are framed by old man Londo's retelling of the Earth-Minbari war to a couple of kids? The events shown in "In the Beginning" might just be Londo's best understanding of what went on, based on what facts or rumours he's heard in his career from ambassador to prime minister to emperor. In other words, is it possible we're not seeing in "In the Beginning" what actually happened, but just a representation of Londo's telling of the story?
He knew about Minbari souls transferring to Human bodies?
@@marcmielke Well, that's the question, isn't it? How much of In the Beginning is a dramatisation of the story Londo is telling the kids, and how much of it is just a framing device and we're seeing what actually happened? If he did know about the human-Minbari connection, I've no idea how he'd have learned of it. But then he knew Lennon had been summoned by the Grey Council, and I've no idea how he'd have learned of that, either. Up to viewer interpretation, I suppose.
I see the Earth/Mimbari war being akin to garter snakes fighting cobras & the Black Star's destruction akin to a garter snake getting a lucky nip on a cobra's carotid.
Minbari ship pretends to be crippled to lure a fleet of Eartthforce ships into a trap. Complains when Earthforce uses the same tactics against them.
Earth had heaps of victories in the war. The victory over the Black Star was only different in that the attacking Earth ship survived. pyrrhic victories are still victories. :P
Reminds me of Ivanova mentioning "the bonehead maneuver" in S3E1. Good point.
You gotta use every opportunity you get when your opponent is more advanced then you.
On the Episode that Sheridan was introduced into Babylon 5, Season 2 Episode 1, he stated that he destroyed four Minbari Cruisers, including the Black Star with his task force by tricking them into the asteroid field to kill them, something he set up days before the battle. Which is why I say it is hard to say the movie is canon since it contradicts what he says and honestly makes him less of the military leader we see in the show. To fix that, I would have the Earth Alliance fleet detect a small Minbari fleet come their way in an intimidation fashion towards a colony they are protecting. They retreat in the last minute to make the Minbari think they are cowards and chase them into an asteroid field minded days before the battle in preparation for an eventual encounter with the Minbari. It would work well with Babylon 5 as it gives both good and bad reasons that are not petty. For, on one hand, the Minbari are right Sheridan did not fight fair as he lured their fleet into a trap. But on the other hand, he was fighting for survival and used their own pride against them, which shows a truly skilled warrior. As opposed to Minbari portray preforming cowardly surprise attack against an enemy with no chance of victory even in a fair fight and crying foul when their surprise attack was turned against them when they went to finish off a supposedly defenseless enemy.
the movie was made by the creator of the show so one of those thigns he forgot.
+ Revkor
Or did not have the budget or time to show the battle as orginally described in the show.
The movie is also in universe story told by Emperor Londo Mollari to a pair of kids a few hours before he died, 35 years after the war. It is not meant to be a fully accurate account. It is based on what Mollari knows what happened.
I think I remember him saying he destroyed several ship that came to investigate at one point
It should be noted that the character of Sheridan was introduced unexpectedly by JMS. He basically had to make up the back story for him on the fly. Consider what Sheridan said about that battle in the first episode we see him as a rough draft of his backstory. What was seen in ‘In the Beginning’ the final, definitive version. It was just the Blackstar alone slaughtering Earth ships. Also, while inferred from dialogue in ‘In the Beginning’ but not directly said there, the battle actually didn’t take place in Sol. I read that in a book I don’t have handy this moment. As for why the Bkackstar left the scene, well the Earth ships were there for a reason, the Blackstar likely was striking whatever objective the EA ships were defending.
The battle with the Black Star is a perfect example of what it is like when an Attacker ( Shariden) rolls a natural 20 critical success, and the enemy ( Black Star) rolls a natural 1 critical failure.
In explainable terms..... The First Nuke detonated at very close range, just as the Black Star's Weapons were powering up and firing. This caused an overload in the ships weapons systems causing them to blow. the damage done by this chain reaction was enough to weaken the Black Stars defenses to the point where the second detonation was enough to destory the ship.
All war is based on deception. Sun Tzu.
I wouldn't trust Sun Tzu, he loaded a bunch of animals up onto a boat and kicked the crap out of them. Now whenever a number of different animals are contained in the same place it's called a "Tzoo".
Unless it's a farm.
Exactly. Any educated person would have seen this.
Why i left the military. PC idiots in charge. If ever put in an even battle pc idiots always lose.
Best to stick to Clausewitz. Maybe a bit of Machiavelli...
@@markperry2827 they probably dream of the day where literal basement dwelling PC (personal computer) gamers can fly drones, bomb the enemy and be heroes.
Yeah..I know
But, Swartzkopf is German...not Russian
and the name of the US commanding general of the first irak war
Bravo, LR, 👏 👏. I am a B5 die hard, and thia was immensely entertaining. Thank you.
Dude, you tryin. And you talkin bout b5. Good on ya.
Star Killer for President.
11:53 Actually they're wrong by virtue of the fact the Lexington WAS hurt. I checked the scene and they set up the bombs as a precaution while calling for help sure they could limp away, but they needed help to get back to Earth. Basically it was self-defense, meaning the Minbari don't have a leg to stand on. Further compounding the situation was they did something similar FIRST, having a fighter draw the enemy in for an ambush. So basically at worst it's a case of "Pot meet Kettle".
Oh about Franklin I see his point being if he created a plague for the minbari he would not know if it could easily jump to humans and other races. And I kinda see an I told you so moment with the Drak plague in Crusade. Also Franklin was stubborn to a fault when it came to his medical code.
Makes sense.. I look forward to your thoughts on the next video I do regarding babylon 5 and Franklin;)
Hippocratic oath, remember...
@@LoreReloaded I will say the same thing as humans and Minbari are genetically viable for breeding.
What good is an oath if everyone is dead? Hard to explain to a mother with a dead baby in her arms why you didnt prevent that death over an oath
@@LoreReloaded I know but EA generals were asking for virus weapons and if the 1918 flu epidemic taught us anything they are nasty things to deal with and can jump to other species in weeks. Think the damage that the flu did but on a galactic scale and a thousand times as deadly.
01:05 Swartzkopf is a German name and was the name of the US General in command during the first Gulf War. He was a totally real person and very, very famous when B5 was on the air. 03:22 I suspect they were hoping to capture a Minbari ship intact. But, I agree that is not clear. 07:46 Didn't you just answer your own question a moment ago? The Blackstar knew there were survivors and were waiting for a distress call. So they knew Lexington had survivors, planned on using that very fact.
Yea some have said that on the German name.
Very cool. And I had a theory but didnt say it was solid
I agree on the intact capture theory. Up until that point, the EAS could only examine debris, so to have an intact ship with all it's targeting and "stealth" (or ability to confuse EAS sensors) capabilities would be a HUGE benefit to Earth.
Along the same lines as what happened in 1953 with the three MIG-15's (two were flown to Denmark from Poland and one from North Korea to South), or 1976 when Viktor Belenko flew his MIG-25 to Japan to give NATO first hand up close look at it's internals and capabilities.
The pilot of thst single Starfury was Ivanova's older brother I believe.
Ganya Ivanova
Best line after this... Delenn "only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Feet, he is behind me you are in front of me. If you value your lives be some where else" Human fleet runs away like little kids.
Amazing how sound (weapons fire) makes a sound in the vacuum of space.
Just to point out 7:10 the forage shows at least 2 nova which weren’t mentioned in the breakdown
Best tactic, couple of shots to disable the fighter straight away, grab it, jump out and reverse engineer the shit out of its sensors.
10 years of cooperation with the Minbari after the war.... and they earth guns still couldn't lock on ... the technology was so far head they couldn't easily reverse engineer it ...
@@davidioanhedges I suspect Vorlons.
Great video as always. You always surprise me with your ability to make a good in depth video on topics that are hard to get in depth with. I've watched everything and anything Babylon 5 and I would have thought there wasn't much info on this battle. You (as well as SpaceDock) made great videos on this and many more subjects. Kudos LoreMaster, kudos.
"hell, I didn't want to live forever anyway," you missed that this was ironic, giving that he does live forever.
While I don't support genocide of an race or species I will say this. In a war that should of never happened in the first place had the right captain been sent to do first contact or close encounter mission. Also, Dr. Franklin standing for his morals and doctor/patient ethics I think is something to be proud of for the character. Genocide for Genocide doesn't make you any better. That would of been like killing all or most of the Germans for what the Nazi party did to the Jewish peoples of Europe. And Sheridan setting nukes as mines was genius. Guerrilla tactics in an all out war against a superior force is and always has been the only card to play.
Besides even if the humans had developed a lethal bioweapon exactly how were they going to deploy it? Weapons lock, oh yeah they couldn't get a lock so really it would have been a useless weapon. Survival at any cost such as becoming your enemy isn't survival it's cloning (for lack of better word).
Nukes the best deep space weapon.
Not really. Only as deep penetrators, not contact explosion
Nah, just passable. Nukes mainly rely on an atmosphere to do their full damage, so you need to get surprisingly close to one for it to knock you out.
I mean chemical explosives are even more useless, but still.
To be honest, anything that relies on concussive force, inhalation, proximity, direct contact (ie no ship hulls) or air as a transport medium (ie most weapons in sci-fi) miss the basic understanding that space is HUGE and basically EMPTY. LOL
@@sirhenry9313 correlary:
Any explosive projectile weapon is a cheap substitute for a relativistic one
@@dynamicworlds1 oh yes and it wouldn't be modern sci-fi without big orange explosions of fire... Even if that's not realistic outside of an atmosphere...
"Do you want to live forever?" Is a Marine quote from WW1. 5,000 Marines died very shortly after this phrase was coined. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Daly
One hundred years and two months ago, one of the most highly decorated marines of U.S. history kicked down a door while under fire an yelled to his fellows "Come on you apes, you want to live forever!" That more where the phrase comes from.
Schwarzkopf is a german name... it translates to Blackhead...
...part of the joke
Lore Reloaded Yes, you do not know many Russians do you..
Nor german ones apparently !
Which was the ship in GROPOS? Wasn't that the same one?
Named after The US General who commanded the US and Allied forces in the first Gulf War.
I still prefer 'John "Nuke'Em" Sheridan' which Boxleitner's own nickname for his role.
What's more amazing - the Minbari fell RIGHT for the same tactic they just tried before 😂😂😂
I think the Black Star was trying to double down on their ambush. First the flier pretended to have issues to lure the fleet in, and blow most of it away, intentionally leaving surviving ships so they would broadcast an SOS. Finish them off, and then wait for a fleet to come, having been called there by the SOS. Hence their advanced sensors "not noticing" there were still functional ships left.
got to love those amiga generated graphics that bab 5 used
the first on thew planet to use cgi in a show
It was also an excellent example of how quickly cgi was evolving at the time. There was a world of difference between Season 1 and Season 5 in visuals. Crusade looked better still, though that show wasn't on long enough to really appreciate it.
Warrior "codes of honor" are stupid and can be extremely hypocritical. The Mimbari had every conceivable advantage and were pursuing a genocidal campaign yet somehow the Warrior Caste had the audacity to demand a stand up fight. The entirety of the Mimbari stradegy was defined by universally avoiding stand up fights. Their stealth systems alone serve as evidence to that affect. It's easy to demand a stand up fight when your enemy can't even get a targeting solution on your ships. Their claims of cowardice make about as much sense as the United States bringing the full force of its military might down upon Mexico and then complaining when the locals employ guerilla tactics.
Mike Vasquez true but American never tried to EXTERMINATE down to the last man, woman and child a whole race. An whenever someone says "i surrender" since banning unrestricted war vast majority of US forces dont shoot the other side. We'll watch them closely and expecr a trick but vast majority of us arent even comfortable with shooting surrendering people. The Mimbari had no apparent issue with slaughtering EVERYONE wether they could, did, was armed or not, or even surrendering.
@@robertagu5533 clearly, but I was referring solely to the disparity in capability.
Its comforting to see Suika every time you get angry.
great video and man don't put your work down , your videos are always great fun.
Interestingly, Sheriden uses the tactic two other times. He bring 2 500 kt bombs to Zahadum abourd a Whitestar and crashes the ship into the biggest city on the planet. Then in the final battle between the Alliance, Shadows and Vorlons he used Nuks hidden in Astroids, to get the attention of both the Shadows and Vorlons to end the Shadow war. Nothing subtle about Sheriden he loved nukes, or should we call him Nukem Sheriden.
I call him Megaton Sheridan.
Like your reasoning (especially about how nuts the Mibar complaints were. But then this is a race vain about their discipline and honor, who went on a war of genocide when one of their ships with a VIP on it bungled a first contact. Really the series never dealt with the fact that the Minbari would be pariahs in the galaxy. The high tech race with the morals of rabid animals. They who for one skirmish, committed themselves to racial genocide, and complained when the victims did stand and die in a dignified way. (Hell, thinking about it. Folks would reasonably trust and align with the Shadows out of fear of the Minbari.)
The battle was always kind of sketchy. Jumping out leaving some alive as bait makes sence, but at that point wouldn't all Earth know the Minbari were doing that to draw in more victims.
Well, the whole war was *really* unusual for the Minbari as far as the other races were concerned. They were pretty insular, and the other races didn't mess with them because of how powerful and generally disinterested in the other races they seemed to be. It's likely the war was seen by many as the sad consequence of human arrogance, and the Minbari as something akin to a force of nature, that can't be reasoned with. And they *did* have a tough time finding allies to fight the Shadows. If they hadn't had Sheridan on their side, it's likely they would have had very few allies indeed.
Between the destruction of the Black Star and the destruction of the Third Space gate, John had earned the moniker, John "Nuke-em" Sheridan.
Plus you know all those times in the Shadow War.
hi lore reloaded, i´m sci fi fan since i was a kid, and the first time i watched spacedock, i thought "man i know nothing"
your work is also fine, i like how you rewind at some points and change what you were actually saying.
As for the who wants to live forever. That date backs to World War one. When I the Marines attacking Bellawood.
I'm sure every thing comes from something else
Lore Reloaded The movie/book is quoting Dan Daly (the person who said the quote, and one of the few people to be awarded the Medal of Honor twice). So it is still correct in a way.
Which is itself an either knowing or unknowing reference to Frederick the Great's "Dogs! Would you live forever?" exhortation to his guardsmen in the battle of somewhere-or-other in Austria in the 18th century. Which who knows, was maybe a reference to someone else we don't remember now
Yea, but this gave way to one of the best speeches in the show:
EAF Task Force trying to seize control of Babylon 5: "We have authority here. Do not force us to engage your ship."
Delenn: "Why not? Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives; be somewhere else."
the thing i always found interesting about this battle was not the battle itself but how the minbari warrior caste would have such a tantrum about this for years too come
"You beat us! How dare you!"
What a bunch of pussies.
They really were sore losers
The reason for the capital ships pursuing a single flier is because they had to maintain some kind of distance to their own fighter to recover it later. Plus, you don't stop your overall patrol orders just to figure out what one vehicle is doing. And as with every conflict of any form, it is harder to hit a moving target than a stationary one.
Scientifically speaking, there is also the concept of stopping and starting movement in general requires massive amounts of energy. Changing speeds is one thing. Stop/start however uses massive forces, meaning massive fuel.
A: love the doctor who quote at the end.
B: the destruction of the black star, while called cowardly by totalitarian militaristic dishonerable supremitists (aka minbari), was not cowardly at all. It was a tactical decision by desperate men and women. The supremitists just couldn't get over the loss so reverted to childish name-calling, and I honestly would have loved that to be called out more in the series.
I take offense to you saying of Sheridan's attack plan 'it WAS a cowardly act'. Excuse me. Considering the fact that the Mumbai were fighting a holy war of extermination against humanity and were known for killing even the wounded in every confrontation, decrying an effective tactic that made them pay for their own genocidal tactics sounds like support for the Mumbai. As General Lefcourt said, "They paid the price." I'm glad you agree that the Mimbari got what they deserved because it was an act of war - but you really do need to remove that 'cowardly act' line. Remember, the war was started by accident and misunderstandings... and if we're to be honest, Delenn is SOLELY responsible for the entirety of the Earth-Mimbari War - as hers was the deciding vote against moderation and seeking out the truth behind what happened into the unfortunate encounter that caused Dukhat's death.
Great video! My late mother loved Babylon 5 and she always believed that Sheridan was in the wrong here..
Was it just me, or did Sheridan look like he was praying that someone had a better idea? 😄
Tbh..... i think its normal to be like this in that Sitaution....they basicly looked certain death in the eye with a rly small glance of hope and a plan that was basicly insane....... love that lil bit of acting.....makes him more human
I loved this sequence in the show
The additional ships are from the dialogue in the show when he is explaining the attack to Ivanava. He said they destroyed the Black Star and several other cruisers. I guess the guys making the movie later decided to cut the other ships to make it simpler for viewers who hadn’t seen the shows first.
That small fighter acted like it had a flameout to draw them in...guess cowardice is a two edged sword.
Damn, some serious shade thrown at Dr. Franklin at the end.
My question is, if there was no gravity, how did the steel beams fall on the captain.
You are over looking something: what were their orders?
We don't know what the fleet's job was.
You don't put a fleet someplace without purpose.
And if they were looking for enemy ships, it would make sense to move the fleet in. Cautiously, looking for traps.
Plus, if they send fighters only, and it IS a trap, the cap ships can't support them, and they lose all their fighters.
Which will leave them vulnerable.
It's reasonably logical to think that they stand a chance of not instant death when they find the trap.
And Minbari have better scanners. But in the B5 universe, you can't 'scan' for life signs.
Lore Reloaded 👍
Spacedock 👍
Babylon 5 🤩😍
Keep going! You guys rock!
This was a battle, don't disrespect that. It was a battle of tactics, force multipliers, and odds. With only 3 small nukes, and 2 fleeing ships, Sheridan had to quickly study the battlefield, identify the most likely enemy approach lane, the best placement of his limited resources, an escape path, and a possible chance for a secondary victory as well. Sheridan proved himself to be a great tactician, captain, and commander.
Glad you included video clips and images of each ship for the placesetting. Love Spacedock’s overview, but really missed the images of each ship. Better lore wise.
Also Schwarzkopf was the First Gulf War Commander for US forces, not Russian. RIP.
Love the shade you threw at the doctor.
Just a point of information, "Starship Troopers" debuted in theaters in November 1997 and "Babylon 5: In the Beginning" aired in early January 1998, meaning that they were probably both in production and editing at roughly the same time and thus more than likely came to the line independently. Unless the line is in the original Heinlein novel, which I don't think it is, because the novel tends to be very inner monologue.
They both apparently got it from another book which got it from a battle in world war 1.. or so many commenters have stated
this was the Blackstar's strategy. They wipe out most ships and let the survivor call for help. Then they destroy that ship and wait for the rescue ships to arrive and repeat the same tactic. But even the best tactics only work for so long before someone figures it out. Lexington just got lucky.
There are two stories of the battle, in the B5 series they do say fleet, but in the movie About the war it's only the Blackstar that jumps in and the battle is only told as one ship vs. a fleet. It's coming down to the cost of putting it on screen and the cost of only telling about it in passing on the show.
And the Blackstar killed a lot of ships in the area so there was a lot of debris in the area, and the Lexington was only on minimal power when they left to takeout the other ships, so they could have seen it as a ship already dead in the water.
The Doctors wasn't really a traitor, he simply din't want to have his work used for making weapons of genocide, and he did keep that same trait trough out the show, he put the rule to do good by his oath higher than anything else, even religious callings of other races.
One of the tools of war is to wound your enemy instead of killing them. This can be used for several reasons. On the ground a wounded enemy takes up resources and slows troops down. If you straight up kill ten men in a unit the remaining members of the unit are just as swift as before, in fact more so. If you wound 5 and kill 5 then you've got the remaining men of the unit attempting to treat and transport the 5 injured. It takes up resources and slows the unit down dramatically. That's just an example of the thinking. In the case of this battle it's pretty clear the EA aren't looking for a head on conflict because they know they're going to lose. They're attempting to keep their distance from the main Minbari attack group on purpose. The Minbari know that, which is why the trap is there. So once the trap is laid and the ships are dealt with the Minbari can then use any survivors to their advantage, in a similar way to how the ground troops were used in my previous example. A dead crew isn't worth a whole lot, but a disabled crew inside of a disabled ship could be. If I were the Minbari commander my order would have been to leave some of the ships stranded in hopes that they'd send a distress call. Once the distress call was made I'd move in to destroy the ship and wait for the recovery teams to come in. They'll attempt to secure the area and search for survivors. In other words you can use the survivors of one trap to set up a second trap in the exact same location. Now for a race as powerful as the Minbari it doesn't seem like they'd need to do this, but when the EA tactics involve avoiding fights it could be one of the only ways to draw them out in order to hit them.
You have your own flavor that is separate from spacedock, so don't feel inadequate in comparison. Your awesome
The two accounts of the Black Star Battle are contradictory to the point of being mutually exclusive. In the series, Sheridan says it was in the last months of the war, and took place in our own solar system's asteroid belt. In In The Beginning, we're told it was comparatively early on, and not in our solar system. This is just one of a number of details that JMS either forgot, ignored, or simply couldn't afford to film when In The Beginning was made (another example: we didn't see that wall of bodies that formed to protect Dukhat from the Soul Hunters, did we?)
A classic case of the kettle calling the pot black. The Minbari start the encounter by using a (seemingly) crippled ship to lure the Earth ships into a trap. The encounter ends by the Humans using an actually crippled ship to lure the Minbari into a trap. Turnabout is fair play.
Seriously though, B5 had some of the best space battles ever. Not just a lot of PEW PEW but real tactical situations.
Sheridan was NOT paying homage to Starship Troopers. Starship Troopers WAS paying homage to an unnamed United States Expeditionary Force Sergeant deployed to The Western Front in 1918 who famously shouted "C'mon you apes, you wanna live forever?" While firing a shotgun from the hip at German soldiers. I presume Strazinski was as aware of that historical anecdote as Heinlein.
I would call it a Tatical incentive survival act. Or
cowardice is transformed from a possible weakness of the Black Star Vessel lying in a trap door spider act, to a particular strength of the Earth Force Vessel. In its tatical weakened position, luring the spider to a helpless prey with a sting in its tail.
Here is how I see it. The Minbari obviously haven't fought with anyone in a very long time, and most of their military plays war games over the last thousand years. Even the Centauri, at the height of their power when they were expanding in every direction, never challenged the Minbari. So confronted with the first war in Millennia, one they are obviously easily winning, they did not feel the need for an abundance of caution. So when the Black Star returned to finish off the Earth Cruiser, they focused their sensors almost exclusively on getting the kill. They probably had the long range scanners set for jump portals or scanning for hidden Destroyers or Cruisers. The thought, that anyone would lay a trap .... preposterous! :)
In the original story Sheradin said that there was more than one, up to 4 like you had in space dock. Later during this made for TV movie they reduced it to only the Black Star.
Love how he lost his shit there...lol
Sergeant Major Daniel Joseph "Dan" Daly (November 11, 1873 - April 27, 1937) was an American United States Marine and one of only nineteen men (including seven Marines) to have received the Medal of Honor twice. All Marine double recipients except Daly and Major General Smedley Butler received both Medals of Honor for the same action.
Daly is said to have yelled, "Come on, you sons of bitches, do
you want to live forever?" to the men in his company prior to charging
the Germans during the Battle of Belleau Wood in World War I.
Wait, so the Minbari called it a cowardly act that the Humans acted injured to lure them into a trap to destroy them? Didn't the Blackstar do the exact same thing? Didn't the Minbari flyer feign injury to draw in the earth force task force? If the Warrior caste of the Minbari was about honor in combat, wouldn't the use of the flyer acting damaged be cowardly?
They were just mussed and very unhappy about it. The humans bitchslapped the fuck out of their flagship. Basically, it's dishonorable to beat the Minbari in combat.
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
The Minbari were portrayed as having an arrogant streak to them. It is in character for them to be upset on the grounds of, "How dare you try and win! Now stand still and let your betters murder you!"
Even if they had known there were survivors on any of the ships, the distress call would have been allowed to be sent, the shpi destroyed and the rescue ships also attacked on arrival.
So you're telling me that the fact Dr. Franklin upheld his oath as a Doctor to do no harm, you're calling him a traitor? Nice morals bud.
So you're saying someone who lets their entire species die.. including infants, toddlers, babies.. grandmothers.. people who had nothing to do with the actual war.. just let them die .. are good people? I'll take my morals over that person any day... mate..
I never understood the minbari argument about cowardice since they pretended their fighter was disabled in the first place to trigger the first trap. They fell for there own trick.
So i finally got around to finish watching this without distraction. From what i remember, there were "supposed" to be more than just the black star, but due to budget on the series and in the movie, they were only able to cgi the black star. The other ships were added in later. Or something along those lines. I believe it is also mentioned in the book.
Acording to the Lurker's Guide (c.1995) [which is considered the definitive guide]: "During the entire course of the war, Earth scored only one major victory, when a young officer named John Sheridan destroyed the Minbari war cruiser Black Star and several accompanying vessels."
www.midwinter.com/lurk/universe/war-and-line.html
What’s more amazing is that all the CGI was done using an Amiga…
You did indeed catch heck on Stormin Norman's name.
11:51 - "The Minbari would be incensed at this attack, given that the Lexington destroyed the Blackstar while pretending to be hurt. And they're right."
Except the Lexington *was* hurt: she had no main engine power, couldn't jump to hyperspace, could only barely maneuver with docking thrusters, and had had her main weapons disabled either due to losing power or being blown away - possibly both. Hell, I doubt they had any functional fighters left and had to lay those mines using whatever drones they could salvage/suited personnel/combination of the two. Essentially, when the Blackstar was bearing down on them, they were bearing down on a ship that couldn't run or fight directly. Sheridan just took advantage of a situation he knew was likely to occur - and the Minbari got pissed over it.
On that note, I do recommend looking up SF Debris's "Meet John Sheridan" and "In the Beginning" reviews and listen to his comments on how the Minbari reacted to this victory. He's got some... choice words for them: sfdebris.com/ (I'm posting a link to his site because he doesn't typically post to RUclips).
The Lexington was hurt but not helpless this victory was earned by the Lexington the Mimbari were over confident
Sheridan speaks of the destruction of the Black Star, he took it out and two of their Heavy Cruisers when he mined the asteroid field.
Schwartzkopf is an American general, commander of Allied forces in the Gulf War. It was intended to be immediately recognizable to those of us who watched it when it aired. Just like the reference to Bill Clinton.
powerful sensors does not neccessarily mean they can detect life signs. After all, the worlds most powerful radar would interfere with communications, but would not show how many people were on a plane.