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Babylon 5 Lore : How to not handle Peace Talks
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2018
- What's up Lore Masters,
Let's discuss the peace talks that failed between Earth Alliance and the Minbari.
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I really feel, watching these videos of yours on B5, I need to sit down with you and try to explain some of the more intricate and political facts raised. JMS really spent some time building the mythos and showing just how murky things got during the Earth Minbari war. It's a masterful piece of fiction that argues that in war nobody really wins.
Yes, he's missing many points
Sounds like Minbari sympathiser talk!
robert greene The Vorlons were right - and wrong. The Shadows were right - and wrong. THAT'S THE POINT
Also - they never fell? I guess you didn't finish watching the show..........
Because they did.
so hard
Except that’s not universally true. Plenty of people have won through war, sometimes legitimate war and sometimes not.
I think it is true that nobody won in this war, and there’s certainly been plenty of those across history as well.
Also a minor point, for Steven Franklin. He and Sheridan, were captured. They were going to be executed. No trial, even. The Minbari were not taking POWs. So the Minbari were committing war crimes..
Yep, the Minbari don't share the same ethics as us and the NARN were completely okay with them genociding multiple races and yet we are supposed to not do anything to defend our species right to exist according to some commenters.
Let’s see: keep your Hippocratic oath or emulate Joseph Mengele, Hmmm, decisions, decisions
Yeah, but so were the humans. Remember when Delenn was kidnapped and her abductor was telling her that he used to make the captured Minbari dig their own graves? There is hardly any morality in a conflict like this and our dear peace loving life cherishing Delenn came within an inch of executing the love of her life!
@@vidlink And what ethics do WE share may I ask? 😀
I seem to remember a line somewhere calling this a "holy war" there may be some meaning to this in Minbari culture that prevents it being ended without "good reason" and the fact they are genociding a species seems to not be a reason.
Lore Reloaded I’m just curious about something. Just how the Hell was Earforce supposed to deploy a bio-weapon against the Minbari? Even if Dr. Franklin dove into developing bio-weapons using his research on Minbari biology, how would that have helped Earth and humanity? I see multiple ways such an endeavor could have blown up in Earth’s face though.
It’s completely doable. Send 1000 disposable ships loaded with the weapon to Minbar. Doesn’t matter if 999 of them are destroyed, if only one gets through.
You may want to watch the whole series at least two times again, just to grasp the intricate details hidden throughout the whole story.
There is so much you either just missed or ignored.
I loved G'kar
Late season G'kar was awesome
He's sadly missed. The actor's passing has left a void that can never be filled
RIP Andreas...
Me too! :-)
Steven Franklin was right there's no need to make a bad situation even worse
This part of the movie actually bothered me. Franklin, Sheridan and GKar all met here, but don’t seem to recognize each other (let alone reminisce) when Sheridan arrives in season 2
....damm you have a poin there.
It was a secret meeting, it's a good bet that both the Earth Alliance and Narn have their own version of the Official Secrets Act which prevents them from discussing an event for the rest of their lives even with those involved. Also more than 15 years have passed between the meeting and B5; I have difficulty remembering the names of people I met last week, let alone 15-odd years ago :D
(and on a more pragmatic level, JMS wrote In The Beginning after season 2 had been filmed and clearly hadn't got all the granular detail of the Earth/Minbari war written down before ITB was written, he's only human!)
Chris M in the beginning is just poorly written compared to the series. I just consider it Londo telling an overly embellished tale
@@TheRoleplayer40k But you have to admit. That speech he give just before the Battle of the Line is tits, though.
Minor point. I don't remember where I read this exactly, but I do recall that one of the votes against war was actually from one of the warrior caste. This wasn't because he didn't want war, but because he cautioned against jumping into a conflict against a species that fielded ships capable of heavily damaging their cruisers. Not that this little bit of unsubstantiated information that I can find no evidence to support means anything. Just thought I'd mention given the talk about how the vote split went down.
For what it's worth, your position on Franklin makes perfect sense. Yes, there is the nuance that his father was a lifetime military man and a hardline general and perhaps Steven was partly motivated by not doing as his father would have done in that situation. And yes, it flies in the face of being a doctor to enable the act of genocide. But wrestling with your morals or your angst over the strained relationship with your father are two things that are quite hard to do if you and everyone else to whom any of that might matter winds up dead and forgotten.
I can actually appreciate someone disagreeing with me. I don't think it's a black and white answer - even though I present it as such (I'm an entertainer by trade as well so.. ;P ). People who say I'm a nazi cause of it are silly.. because its obviously a different choice.. but yea.. I can see how layered it is.
Lore Reloaded I see the merit on either side of the issue, but pragmatism objectively points to the option that *might* keep your species from being exterminated. I say "might" because I would have been highly curious to see how Earth Force would have tried to deliver such a weapon had Franklin created it. But yes, the Nazi comparisons are serious strawmen if anything. People like Dr. Mengele weren't carving up or poisoning prisoners because Germany was under threat of annihilation. They did it out of a sense of superiority and in the name of progress minus any kind of morals or ethics. And fruit of the poison tree it may be, but a lot of that knowledge and its derivatives have contributed directly or indirectly to current medical knowledge. Literally everything is a mixed bag. B5 displayed that very well.
Also at one point he mentions that his father was injured during the Dilgar War and a Dilgar doctor saved him. Doesn’t excuse his treason but the character has some depth. Still my favorite moment is when he was trying to find himself, gets stabbed, and his ego or whatever that vision was calls him out on being such a coward
rufinator That is a fan favorite episode. He was never quite the same after that experience. He had the wisdom to know he needed to step away after the stims. Garibaldi was amazing in relating to him when the addiction really hit. Character development was really something in this show.
I’m just curious about something. Just how the Hell was Earforce supposed to deploy a bio-weapon against the Minbari? Even if Dr. Franklin dove into developing bio-weapons using his research on Minbari biology, how would that have helped Earth and humanity? I see multiple ways such an endeavor could have blown up in Earth’s face though.
0:46 Because she is just one member of the Gray Council, at that point one of the must junior members. At the Battle of the LIne she took command in the face of a shocking discovery, one that all the members of the Gray Council found profoundly disturbing. Likewise until that moment, she did not truly realize Earth would be so very important. The Council gave the orders to surrender and the Minbari obeyed the Council, not Delenn. Up until then, btw, she is also suffering from severe guilt, but she also understands that Dukhat's message will probably not be believed. She needs more than that. 01:26 Your theory about how the vote broke down, while perfectly possible, is only a theory. Once the vote has been made, the Council has committed itself to total war. It isn't as if governments and empires just "change their minds" and alter the momentum of everything on a whim. 01:46 She was clearly hoping to present the council with a fair accomplit which they then would/might accept. Why not "just" change their minds? Because that is tantamount to admitting they are guilty of poor judgment, panic, and mass murder. They would do so, yes, but not without a powerful reason. After all, look at how huge chunks of the US population keep going on about Iraq's non-existent WMDs, which were the whole reason we were given to launch an invasion which ending up killing people in the six figures! People are stubborn. 03:12 The man who refused to commit a war crime that might not have even worked and if it did would make things worse? Yes, choose the competent man of prinicipal. 03:55 He is making a good offer, but he comes across as acting out of recruiting a good warrior, not compassion. It is a complex situation, though, and as we learn G'Kar proves to be a very great soul in th end. 04:44 OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE JUST STOP IT WITH THIS CHILDISH HATRED OF T.V. SHOW YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WATCH. I mean, I loathe football but I don' watch games and go around bitching about! 08:21 This may be a plot hole, but I don't remember Delenn giving an order to have them killed. Will have to see this again. 08:43 A cavalcade of errors on both sides. Yes. Exactly. That is exactly what this was. That is kinda the point.
Haha! I love the shade you are throwing at Franklin @6:30 , Great video.
Franklin's choice to uphold his oath. Something the Minbari would later respect.
Delenn was one vote out of five to attack the humans. It's entirely possible that, with Lenonn's meeting going pear-shaped in a big way, she couldn't get four other peace votes even if she wanted to (and she might not have wanted to; if I'm remembering it right, Lenonn was a close friend of hers).
As an aside.. Yes, you don't like Franklin's decision. We get that. The horse isn't just dead, it's hamburger. :P
Two members of the Grey Council died when they encountered the humans for the first time: Dukhat and someone else. That's the only way Delen could be the deciding vote following Dukhat's death. The breakdown doesn't particularly matter as it's established the entire reason for the war was because of Dukhat's death (he was a religious figure seen as something akin to Buddha). Had he not died the Earth/Minbari war likely never would have happened (perhaps the shadows assassinated him?).
Since he did die all the Minbari were driven nearly insane with the grief. Likely once the two Grey Council positions were filled they were both for the war making the total count an immovable 5-4 (6-3 with Delenn) as Dukhat's replacement almost surely would want revenge (at least until it was revealed Valen himself was reborn as a human). Delenn couldn't change her vote without a definitive majority because she was Dukhat's last acolyte and it would have been viewed as a betrayal of his memory. A betrayal so severe she would likely have been removed from the Council thus eliminating any chance to stop the war.
As for the message, Dukhat made the mistake of leaving it with the Vorlons and they absolutely would not reveal themselves as being active. Remember, they wanted to fool the Shadows into complacency thinking the Vorlon's weren't active during this time. They had no idea who among the Minbari they could trust and their one contact had just died under mysterious circumstances. They also couldn't just give Delenn the recording because it explicitly stated the Vorlons were active and getting ready to fight the Shadows. If even one Council member was a traitor that would be the end of the ruse.
Both these factors went into Delenn's thinking when she sent Lenonn to a secret meeting with the humans. She couldn't reveal the Vorlon's (literally, they can make themselves invisible among other things) and she couldn't jeopardize her position on the Grey Council. She was hoping Lenonn would find some proof the humans were essential in the next Shadow War. Something that would convince just one other Council member. Lenonn died in the attempt and to keep up appearances she had to order the humans deaths. It wouldn't be until they found Valen at the Battle of the Line that Delenn would have the proof she needed to change the Council's decision.
Actually only Dukat died. He didn’t have a Vote he could only over rule the council if 2 died she wouldn’t be the deciding vote she only was the deciding Vote because All 9 got to Vote
No, no, I think your first choice of Ranger had a lot of potential. We'll circle back and examine that a little later.
You have very logical arguments, but you are forgetting one little detail.
The Minbari were enraged. Dukat was the equivalent of Lincoln or Ghandi. It took proof that not only Minbari souls were reincarnated into Humans, but that Sinclair carried Valen's soul for the Grey Council to reconsider. That's about like Christ reincarnated for them. Do you really think any argument Delenn could have brought up would have changed that? When she was the final vote calling for the blood of an entire species? This was even mentioned.
Still they couldn't tell that to their people.The war endet ecause the Minbari trusted the Grey Council, but even that was close to a breaking point.
And the surrender was neccessary to ease the long-term relations with humanity. It made clear that the Minbari had absolutely no interest in a conflict now or later.
Even all that barely worked. Ten years later the Human and Minbari resentments were still on a dangerous level with some groups and individuals.
The Vorlons might have stopped it, but they knew that all this was neccessary to win the last Shadow War one thousand years ago. And in that regard they would have stopped Delenn so that everything would happen as it happened.
I really like what you doing with this series
Glad you enjoy
Dude, stop holding back. Tell us how you really feel about Franklin.
I don't feel its appropriate..
@@LoreReloaded: Please do. I love it when you're controversial. Unless your not telling because it is NSFW, then you're just being cheeky. 😏
HAHA Yes, he was a mite too hard on the good Doctor. Franklin took the moral high road, even in the face of total annihilation. Don't forget he was asked to find a biological way to kill the enemy. In the moment it sounds nice to be the victor in a war, but for one man to have to live will killing possibly millions?
@@captainspire9094: Yet, the Minbari have no problem genociding plenty of species and the narn do nothing multiple times to stop them or even tell the Minbari that genocide is going to far. The Minbari don't also take POWs so their morals and ethics are largely different from our own. If you can't reason or negotiate with genocidal maniacs then yes killing them all is an appropriate response. to save your species.
@ Vidlink remember, this is Sci Fi, bring it down man. Dr Franklin's character wouldnt agree with you. Remember his father was all about the military and war and conflict. His father even rejected his stance as he went to become a doctor. To save lives, not harm them. For as long as his character was developing, Franklin would never accept taking even one life to support the war. He even burned his notes to prevent them from being used. This is one of those moments, with many of the religious overtones of B5, where Franklin was forced to face the extreme of his convictions and stood by them.
once battle had began, nothing but total victory will suffice. They did mention they are a world went mad, the menbari wants blood and they will not listen to reason once the war started.
Warrior cast: Fight and die in their war against the humans.
Worker cast: Build ships and armaments, getting rich on government contracts.
You tell me who was for the war...
1:33
Also, i like the idea of just shooting torpedos at their planet and making it unlivable for 50 years.
"Clearly now with Earth Force advances in technology, the battle of the line would have turned out MUCH differently." We all got a little chuckle at that line.
From what I hear. What they need is not anti-gravity or advance weapons. But good sensor technology. Despite its primitive looking technology. Humans are actually pretty damn good at fighting. As the Dilgar can attest. Without stealth the minbari would either have their ass handed to them or pyric victory.
@@dariustiapula Lack of artificial gravity and advanced drive systems are also a big problem. The Minbari are *much* more advanced than the other younger races. What Earth did have was access to resources, a large industrial base, and high population and birth-rates so they could dramatically outproduce and outnumber the Minbari over the long run. Omega-class destroyers have a scary amount of firepower mostly due to the sheer amount of resources Earth can afford to pour into them, but even with advanced sensors, Minbari cruisers can easily outmanuver them, and still have more firepower. An Omega would need to get pretty lucky to take out a Sharlin even if they could target it.
Unfortunately for the Human, Omega class destroyer never get to participate in the Earth-Minbari War. Many were built during the war, but none were finish in time.
You probably mistaken Nova class because it have similar looking front section.
Captain Spire If Earth had Omegas rolled out (almost did) which showed they could lock onto and hit Minbari stealth - then yes, the war would have gone way, way differently. Not to mention their planetary defense grid. EA missiles fired from the defense grid are shown destroying a Minbari fighter - which again shows EA gained the ability to hit Minbari ships as showed throughout season 3-4.
Not to mention their defense grid’s particle beams could destroy a planet, so a Sharlin would be toast in 1 shot.
Minbari might be older but they have had the same ships for centuries and hardly upgrade. Remember many of the other races were much older than Earth but completely outclassed. It’s not all about age of race, as the Shadows where much older than Vorlons but either side could win.
An EA Nova/Omega/Warlock has the firepower to take out a Sharlin. As long as it can lock on. A Warlock’s firepower is overkill, though.
Earthforce closed tech gaps by building a new ship like the Warlock or Adv-Omegas. EarthForce was constantly upgrading.
Lastly with the stealth tech broken (or even partially broken) which allowed EarthForce to lockon as shown in season 3/4, well, guess what? All those Starfuries and thunderbolts go from useless to extemely deadly - and Earth has thousand of them! An Omega class carries around 30-ish per ship. A Warlock carries 40-ish fighters per ship, way more then the Minbari ships do. So without the stealth tech the sheer number and sheer firepower of EA would be able to overwhelm the Minbari enough to make the war come to a pause, or stalemate.
@@avenger4cats72 Technological advantage is very helpful in a war, but the tactics, speed, and precision of minbari ships and their captains, would have still placed the war in their favor. This is to say nothing of how more maneuverable their fighters were to even the most advanced Star furies or thunderbolts. would have at best slowed their progress to earth.
You know the Peace Talks also raise a quest that is interesting, did most of humanity knew the Narns try to broker a peace treaty between the Humans and the Minbari? For in Babylon 5 it is obvious Sinclair has more hostile relationship against the Narns then the Centari do to viewing of the Narns of predictors of using a desperate operation to sell Centari style weapons to Humans. While Sheridan seems to have a more neutral or favorable relationship with the Narn people, and I wonder it is because Sheridan knew more about what the Narn try to do for Humans with even offering a portion to be taken to Narn as refugees. While Sinclair and possibly the majority of Earth Force only know of the Narn selling weapons to the humans during the war.
Maybe there would have been Peace if they had sent the first Ranger you showed! (Sorry for the bad English. I am from Germany.)
VielLeicht hätte es Frieden gegeben, wenn Sie den ersten Ranger geschickt hätten, den Sie gezeigt haben!
-google translate
Agreed
Erm... the guy they sent was the first ranger and the only ranger shown in the entire movie, so who else do you mean?
Ähm.. der Typ den sie geschickt haben war der oberste Ranger und auch der einzige Ranger den man im ganzen Film sieht. Welchen anderen Ranger meinst Du?
I meant the Power-Ranger-Fan-Girl Lore showed in the Video #joke
Perfect english Markus, no need to worry about that :)
Well, G'Kar was kind of a scumball at the start of B5 series. He changed during the series.
"No-one here is exactly who he appears".
No, he was practical.
Just had a mad thought imagine B5, if Franklin had poisoned a 100 million Minbari ..and was unrepentant.. Garak in a Medlab
Sadly, I don't know if Delenn knew it wasn't Sheridan's fault for Lenonn's death. On the surface the event was just fuel for the fire of her opponents. The death of another figurehead (albeit an arcane one) would have renewed the fervour and religious zeal that helped get the war going. I think the recording of Dukhat was projected via the Vorlon's own encounter suit too. Dukhat himself didn't reveal the Vorlons involvement out of necessity. Finding humanity, integrating and ultimately sending Sinclair back in time was the plan and needed to be done incrementally and on the sly since neither the Vorlons or Shadows weren't really meant to be interfering so much in the younger races development.
With all this hate towards that no good dirty traitor that picture you keep using doesn't really help.
I mean, just look at him, looking so devilishly handsome. He can't be all bad. Just look at that.. that beguilingly smirk...
...... Stop slandering that beautiful beautiful man. He can't be a traitor.
One of the most notable aspects of Humanity is that, when faced with extinction, EVERY alternative is preferable.
There were only 7 members of the Grey council at this point. Dukat and one other died in the first attack as Delenn had the deciding vote on what to do. Likely it was one of the Worker caste that died. This would leave three warrior, two worker, and two religious. It's likely that the other religious member who was against war shifted their view once the war began (perhaps through obligation, it was a holy war at that point). Without a majority on the council Delenn couldn't do anything. Also, it's never stated but the Vorlons may have instructed Delenn not to reveal their presence and you don't go crossing a Vorlon unless you have some major balls.
“Why didn’t Delenn try to stop the war?”
Why didn’t the Japanese surrender after Midway or Okinawa or Iwo Jima or the firebombing to Tokyo? The writing was on the wall at that point. They had known going INTO the war that war with the US was fundamentally unwinnable and their only hope rested in a first strike that was so overwhelming that the US wouldn’t want to fight - after that didn’t happen, defeat was inevitable. But they kept fighting anyway...because the Japanese culture demanded it, could not countenance surrender.
Culture is not an easy thing to overcome. If Delenn had tried to stop the war earlier in a more direct fashion, she’d be asked “why?” and would have to explain it in a way that satisfied Minbari sensibilities, and she didn’t have anything to provide.
I don't care how many times JMS said it, the Minbari did NOT surrender.
Imagine,if sheridan defeated the minbari in battle what more could his tactical mind do against the centuari?
Having served in the Military, I really think you should cut Steven Franklin a break. He made a very hard choice and decided to stick by his morals and by the oath of his profession. And that was NOT an easy thing to do. Traitor or not... he was an extremely Brave individual who was willing to live or die by his convictions.
I disagree
Didn't Dr. Franklin just treat the Minbari? Did he have their DNA or blood samples? I can't remember. It's been a while.
Delenn, the most junior member of the Grey council, not even considered a full council member by some, could do nothing directly
After the vote, made in anger, all were committed and a new vote would have been unanimous
The Religious cast listen slightly to Delenn as she was the chosen disciple of Dukhat, but she cannot stop the war without them backing her, the final tipping point was a human with not just a Minbari soul but Valen's soul
I wished they cover more Sheridan and what he did during the war. Being a POW you would think that would be more important in the characters background. Look at John McCain.
I believe dalen said after the death of dukat her people were in a blood rage that could not easily be stopped.
Can you explain how a biogenic weapon really would have helped turn the tide, given that human weapons couldn’t even target Minbari ships properly?
If anything, the only way it would have had an effect is if human ships snuck behind lines and used biogenic weapons against civilians on Minbari planets that would just have ensured they would not have surrendered in the end, and wiped out Earths remaining defences.
Taking pot shots against Franklin for being a “traitor” is a bit cheap.
But tell us again...
How do you feel about Franklin?
He’s clearly not speaking his mind fully. He didn’t Mention the most disgusting truth. That Stephen Franklin...is a doo foo head.
Can't wait for the next episode. I really want to see your analysis on "Humanities Greatest Victory!!!" **Chuckles**
It's been a while since I saw it, but if Dukat was dead, wouldn't the Gray Council be down to 8 members and make a tiebreaker vote impossible, unless another council member also died?
War often starts through miscalculation on all sides. Ref: WWI.
I think the reason that the Minbari, much the religious caste, couldn't just and change their minds is that in the movie it was described that the Minbari as a people were expecting a mass war to be occurring, even though the warrior caste didn't truly believe in the prophecies and the religious caste was short on specifics. When humanity "woke the dragon," as Londo put it, the war superficially matched up with parts of prophecy, so everyone was avenging Dukat's death, the religious had their prophecy "verified," and the warriors were fighting and winning.
If there was no compelling reason (like "finding out" that the soul of religious leader was found in a human) for the Mimbari to end the war, the religious caste would likely have lost enormous political capital, the warriors would start to distrust the religious caste and maybe even the grey council, and when the real war from prophecy would come the religious would be on there own.
Unfortunately the surrender at the Battle of the Line does start to sow the distrust between the warrior and religious castes, but I think ending the war before then because Delenn realized she was wrong would have opened more problems for the Minbari on the whole.
Um...who was the pink ranger there and what season?
01:31 - Delenn should have sent that ranger instead.
I'm surprised nobody brought a nuke to the negotiations.
indeed
thumbs down!! seriously. No joke about what's in "Dukat's sacred place"... i am shocked i tell you.
😋
Cause once the minbari was comitted to something they couldn't stop untill it was finshed
It's not Deleen that orders them killed, it's the warrior cast, she just get to see them before they kill them, and she can't tell them that this was done by her and the religious cast as again this is a holy war, and the key words she gets told are away to excuses them from being killed, as it is then implied that they can be trusted by the religious cast's secret, and so that cast can say that the secret they know are to important to simply be lost by killing them, placing the humans in the hand of the religious cast instead of the warrior cast as they are the ones safeguarding their history and secrets.
Well that is at least what I think of it.
I wounder what would have happened if the humans continued to fight after the Minbari surrendered...would they have defended themselves? Would they have simply left?
I think only 200 ships and fighters survived The Line or something like that. 99% of all Earth Force ships and fighters were destroyed when the Boneheads surrendered. It would of been pointless for Earth to keep fighting a superior "surrendering" force.
3:09 Better said "the man who knows that Minbari and Humans are basically the same.
Leave a Franklin alone, he did what was right rather than what was easy!
I haven't watched any Discovery since season 1, but I am curious: How exactly are they ripping off B5?
Dark lit sets?
@@TheMrPeteChannel 🤔
My guess is that the attempt at peace negotiations was just another retcon by the movie execs to give additional excuses for Delen's and Sheridan's actions.
"Look at the poor Sheridan. The Minbari used dishonorable tactics first, so it's perfectly okay for him to do the same"
"Look at poor Delen. She tried to stop the war sooner instead of seeming like she didn't care about the millions of people they were slaughtering, but outside interference prevented it."
The Minbari with all their advanced sensors would have been easily able to determin that it was not EA weaponry, but Centauri weapons that made the attack and thus would probably have concluded that the attack was aimed at G'Kar (a member of the Narn government!) and that the Ranger was collateral damage.
They have Telepath for crying out loud. Just a minute or two with anyof the three captives and it's clear that it wasn't the Humans who made the attack.
Or just thiking for a single minute. Why the hell would the Humans want to lure a single Minbari person to a remote place, only to slaughter them, injure themselves in the process and then wait right there for other Minbari to capture them? What insane person would think this could possibly have been the plan?
Just another tick on the long list why, despite being entertaining enough to watch on occasion, I do not consider this movie fully canon. It's just too stupid in places and openly contradicts the series in other places. And for me series canon trumps movie canon any time.
G'Kar coming off as slimy is perfectly fine, considering that's how the character starts out in the pilot and season 1. At first he's the villain pretty much the entire time and only changes into a good person gradually over time. IIRC the first time you see him as anything other than an immoral antagonist is when he saves Sinclair's girlfriend at Sigma 957 after telling her "Nobody here is entirely what he appears." and the ant-scene (love that one by the way).
I would have used "resource" as opposed to materiel.
Okay, we get the idea. You don't like Franklin. Move on already.
..I don't feel like you're going to enjoy my babylon 5 series ;P
Dalin couldn't stop them. The blood lust of her people was strong combine with them feeling justified in there actions made it hard if not impossible to stop
And how to handle it. Your words back by nuclear weapons or some sort of doomsday one.
hmm?
The fault was on both sides.
The minbari military cast lead by that general in mars attacks
And the earth Alliance ship lead by that airforce General guy in that doomsday Peter sellers film 😉 lol
I agree
You can imagine though the burden Sinclair mustve felt knowing it had to happen
General Turgidson played by George C. Scott.
Thank you.
I couldn't remember 👍
I was under the impression that it was because of Minbari combat rules. I thought that because it was a war of Genocide, they could not make peace unless defeated, which is why they surrendered.
They could have surrendered earlier though
@@LoreReloaded They were winning. For all of the Minbari Grey Council to agree to surrender it would that some insane fact that would force the Minbari to end the war.
Damn I love B5
It is a tragedy as History often is. If Princep, had not gone for a sandwich... Two things. 1 I think, there may be an problem about Delenn's position on the grey council. She was standing in for someone at the begining of In the beginning then Dukat dies, and Delenn inherits. She is LBJ or Andrew Johnson. She simply does not have the authority yet to reverse course. To do a 180 degrees. Only Nixon can go to China. Also GKAR in offering to save Sheridan hints at something unspoken. The Humans did win victories against the Minbari remember, twice. This despite being 1000 years more backward etc The Minbari were shown to have feet of clay.
Well, "Holy" war has a certain meaning, unless a religious reason comes up to stop it (which eventually did), there is no stopping it.
The warrior caste didnt care about it being a holy war..
Watch in the beginning when Sinclair has been captured and they probe him.
If I am not mistaken, the person saying "I still can't believe it, the Triluminary is our most Holy relic, it cannot be questioned." was warrior caste.
But even if not, the others accepted the finding of the device, so even to them it must have unquestionably status.
In the end none of this mattered because so long as all action met within the Vorlon's prophecy everyone can play out good or bad. Vorlon's know the future and if there was an actual risk of the war not stopping or a key person being killed Kosh would involve himself. I use prophecy because one of the underlining messages (stolen by DS9 btw) is of prophecy. In this case it's prophecy because literally Vorlon's know future events and player up to the point B4 gets sent back in time.
Yea.. how would that have gone.. Minbari ships dropping Infront of earth only to find Vorlon ships defending it
Kosh gets to just walk around the grey councils ship. I'm pretty sure if things got too fucked up Kosh would had whispered to the right people to get a peace vote. Remember the Vorlons only need Delenn, Sheridan and Sinclair alive for the plan to work. Earth being destroyed, enslaved or occupied doesn't effect so long as some faction agrees to pay for the Babylon project later and then the Vorlons would WANT 3 of them to be destroyed too. Actually think even G'kar offer might had been a 'PLAN B' suggested by the Vorlons at some point.
Let’s face it, DS9 stole everything but the Soft Drink Wars (won by Zima) from B5. They even stole Lennier for a double episode then killed him, probably for asking to change a couple words in one sentence :-) .
rided... wtf verb is that
Obstinate for the sake of being obstinate defines much of Minbari culture if we must be honest. The Minbari don't react well to new information or new ways.
And are given just the information that they require and no more, unless the Ambassador gets Eye On Mimbari with her news feed :-) .
Back then Lando was a war monger. And he knowingly shoot on the secret meeting place and killed Dukat.
Denying this is like denying that US army didn't screw up Mediterranean EU countries (mostly Italy) with north African refugees.
Dukhat was the Minbari leader that was killed in Earth's first contact with the Minbari. The guy who died here was the leader of the Rangers.
what is this from a film or the tv show
She ordered the love of her life, comrade in arms and future husband ... to be executed??? What can I say? Bravo, Delenn! 😀😀😀
I think in mindset Minbari are a conformist society with obedience being paramount. However the caveat is that they have to give a good damn reason to go to war or not go to war. Indeed that is what Duhkat did manipulating the council to go to Zhaadum. They need to investigate before preparing for as to justify to their people. The reason the Minbari stopped the war is because they found out Humans are related to them. Minbari will not kill Minbari. Plus Timey-Whimey Ball. The reason given I think for Minbari not being able to stop themselves are largely biology. They can't separate memory from emotion. Which is why some went rogue during the surrender.
The minbari would have damned themselves. Stop ridding on Franklin.
during the American civil war, many Union soldiers and even officers looted captured towns even after their generals ordered them not to.
1. The war started when earth force after a war wit the dilgard !!! after defeating them, Earth forces wanted to expand their sphere of influence in the galaxy , they ask ambassador maluri about a race called the minbari , Lando told them to leave them alone and if you travel in their space send only one ship !! More than that would be consider it an aggressive act !!! they kelp asking him bout they military strength !!!! They did not listen , he also told them , your arrogance in stupidity walk hand n hand , he warned them n they didn't listen !!!! The new kids on the block bit off more than they could chew !!!! A almost fatal mistake
This was talked about in a previous episode
It feels like the perspective you've formed on Franklin is the only one you allow yourself to see. Decent series so far but that gives me doubt for its future. The show operates on such a grand scale, not seeing the forest for the trees does not bode well for the long term.
I like what ThomasFishwick said in another post.
Consider some people's complaints about A Song of Ice and Fire, that JRR Martin's description of horrible things is just as dispassionate as his descriptions of normal stuff. If you want to really see the true depth of a thing, you need to remain non-objective as opposed to passing judgment on something.
When you are passing judgment on characters, you are watching a show as a viewer.
When you are able to dispassionately dissect a character's actions in the big picture, you are analyzing it properly. That is, what it seems, you might be trying to do with your channel. So, something to think about. It's all about getting on that Space Docks level, right? ;)
+Jestercorp You're passing judgement on his passing judgement, that's ironic. You think he's wrong about Franklin. If you didn't, you wouldn't have made any comment at all about it.
@@Ares99999 I do disagree, but I'm not presenting it so as to say that he is wrong. But that's the root of discussion, is it not? It's fine for people to disagree as long as they maintain proper discourse.
Also, none of what I said is judgmental. He is calling Franklin names and passing down judgment (literally). I'm commenting on how his perspective comes off without judgment, and teasing a little, since maintaining as little bias as possible is preferable when analyzing anything.
You might want to learn the difference between the two before you try to throw in another weightless opinion that offers no value to a conversation.
+Jestercop Your entire last sentence was you judging me. Implying I'm stupid, implying my opinion is worthless, or that my opinion has no value. Because you didn't like what I said. Or so it seems to me.
Instead of telling him what you believe he did wrong, why don't you analyze Franklin in what you believe is the proper way? Because, unless you do, I don't see how you opinion has more weight or value than anybody else's, including mine.
@@Ares99999 I didn't read your whole post because your first sentence says everything.
You're looking to be attacked here, you're looking for someone to be the victim. But - my last sentence was not "judging" you - it was judging your post, which provided no value. You need to learn to distinguish between personal attacks and statements of fact, or even statements of opinion which do not reflect someone's opinion of you on a personal level.
+Jestercorp Okay, if that's how you see it, so be it.
Okay, I have been enjoying these, but maybe dial back the pro-genocide talk. Franklin didn't choose the Mimbari over Humans; he chose not to let his work be used to genocide anyone. That's not unreasonable; he's holding to the conventions of war. Just because some general *wanted* him to go Joseph Mengle on the enemy doesn't mean he was betraying his own people by refusing to do so. Choosing not to commit a war crime on behalf of your side is not the same as choosing the enemy over your side or betraying your side.
The constant dings of Janeway in the Scorpion two-parter, I've learned to take... but the Franklin-traitor stuff is becoming annoying. (For instance, I think you can trust the guy so devoted to preserving life that he wouldn't become a mass-murderer to win a war to preserve the lives of his side, too).
..I was unaware that saving humanity was a pro genocide option ;P
I suspect it has to do with Franklin's Foundationist beliefs...
I always thought they retconned the hell out of this and the other post series TV movies - way too much. It always screamed lazy writing.
The minbari were stupid though. The way they say hello is essentially like having a firearm in your face and a knife to you neither regions.
What would you do? 😂
Well if your the earth captain, kick them in the ahem 👍 lol
Alan Jolly
The Minbari usually do it only with people who know what the gesture means, so that part is understandable from the point of view of the captain. The real stupid part is that they had no protocols for first contacts prepared. They have dinners requiring so many rituals that it takes 2 days cooking them, but none for first contacts. Apparently the Minbari are a race of Jonathan Archers.
It's a Vulcan hello..... oops no just something else discovery ripped off
Jonathan archer was the best starfleet captain and that the only reason why the nx wasn't destroyed was because they were intimated with him.
The Vulcan women really secretly loved him but his one true love was porthos 😉👍 hehe
sg586
Except they ripped it off wrong. It wood kind of makes sense you show you are ready for a fight, because a sign of weakness might provoke an attack. But when you actually fire the weapons, you signal that you want to fight.
I remember about the dinners.
But the thing that made me chuckle was when delenn and John got engaged and spent the night together.
All those Pervy minbari.
Yeah, far as the legendary scifi franchises go Babylon 5 TRIES to use diplomacy but honestly IS NOT good at it. Like any of them really.. you'd figure most better geared for war factions like Starfleet wouldnt be so good at diplomacy but they surprisingly are. some like Gkar are almost Cardassian or Ferengi like but from watching Babylon 5 lately he seems to always have some agenda when he interacts with others.
Also next to the Mass Effect and Halo verses i notice Babylon 5 seems to be one the few other scifi series where alot of people and races, even ancient and powerful ones, have huge plans for Humans to become the next "all powerful and legendary great species" OR basically we're the key to intergalactic salvation against universal extinction.
An yeah in all these franchises everyone that can help is so maddeningly cryptic and unhelpful most the time its almost usally a disaster for EVERYONE... cuz plot i guess
#Alienlivesmatter
#HumanityFirst
You talk of it as if it was real. Well it wasn't. It is a man made senario with many errors and improbabilities and it is meant to amuse you. Why this person did this or the other person didn't do something else? I'm sure the creators didn't care much about that.
Yea...you dont get the channel and that's ok..its ok to miss the point
@@LoreReloaded Touchy touchy. Sorry if I hurt your pointless feelings.
@@3daysago266 Alas, you didn't do that. But you might still..the night is young!
@@LoreReloaded That would be easy. I'll just write something in some other vid and keep you looking for me just like Sheridan was looking for Spock.
@@3daysago266 oh no! You'll comment on more videos, thus improving my stats in the RUclips algorithm and pushing me up in ratings!!! YOU CUT ME TO THE QUICK SIR
Enough with the Franklin hate. The joke's wearing thin.
don't believe that's possible
Based on your objection to a Doctor refusing to participate in biological warfare, I must assume you favored the experimentation performed in Germany in the 1940s.
If this was intended to be funny, it stopped being funny a long time ago.
Yea alot of people try to say that, lacking the fundamental difference that I clearly explain in the video. If you dont like my content though..I may not be the channel for you.
Franklin never refused to help his species - as a Doctor, by healing people. He did refuse to participate in Bioweapons Research. Which most IRL Doctors would not participate in either.
My issue with your content is this one specific issue (not sure if it is supposed to be a joke or not, if it is, it is not funny.)
He did..yea..actually point blank refused to save every person on planet earth.. It's me stating what I believe and sticking to my point. I do it with levity. I'm glad you like my other stuff but if you don't like this or think it's not funny? Fair enough.. I'll consider that..but may still do it here and there.. It's just my nature. Also, I don't take kindly to being compared to a nazi when i've clearly delineated the differences in two videos - thus the response the way it was. This may be something where we agree to disagree.
To be clear, I am not calling you that. I do not call people that.
Regarding Franklin. It has been about a year since I watched the movie, but Both Wikipedia and the B5 Wiki agree with my recollection:
"When the Earth-Minbari War started in 2243, Franklin rejoined EarthForce and was assigned to manage an advanced military hospital on Earth. During the war, all EarthForce doctors were ordered to turn over any notes they had on Minbari biology for use in the production of biological weapons. When EarthForce discovered that Dr. Franklin had detailed notes on Minbari anatomy and physiology, he was ordered to give his notes to EarthForce researchers. Franklin, believing that it was unethical for a doctor to aid in research to create weapons of mass destruction, refused, and he was arrested by EarthForce." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Franklin_(Babylon_5)
He joined up to save lives, he only refused to engage in biological warfare.
First again!
#winner
This is another reason why I'm not a big fan of Babylon 5, too many goddamn mistakes!