Milwaukee Tool M18 TOP OFF Output Waveform Revealed!
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- Опубликовано: 7 мар 2021
- In this video I compare the output waveform of the M18 TOP OFF and what you get out of a conventional USA wall outlet. What are you sacrificing when you use this tool VS the conventional power grid (Besides the obvious power limitation). The result was actually better than I expected... Considering this is an inexpensive inverter, that is a pretty big endorsement! SPOILER - The frequency is similar, it is the Peak-to-Peak that will surprise you!
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![Milwaukee 2846 M18 175W TopOff Review [120V, USB-C PD, and USB-A]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g09cYq7amac/mqdefault.jpg)
finally i got a good review of the device, every other review is just useless, this is the information i need to make decision if i wan to buy it or not. thank you for great review
I use mine on my side security job for about a year! I love it!
Yes, they're awesome! Even without the 120Vac inverter option, these turn your batteries into instant USB-C / USB-A power supplies. I would only use the AC option in a last resort type situation.
For some additional insight here...
Everywhere power is generated, or transformed, you need to establish a ground reference. For example, you may have single phase 240Vac coming into your house from the power company. Where the voltage and current are transformed (the transformer on the utility pole for instance), a ground/neutral bond is established to create a reference that is common to both sides. Same thing in commercial control applications where you may take 3 phase 480V and grab one leg of it to a 480:120Vac xfmer. The low side of that transformer will have two wires that read 120Vac between the two. One of them will be bonded directly to ground on that secondary side in order to maintain a common reference to the same ground on the high (480v) side. The ground bonded leg will now be the secondary's ground (green wire) and neutral (white wire). After that point, the two will never join each other again, and if another xformer was added down stream to say, drop 120Vac down to 24Vac, the process would continue. The ground wire to ground, hot and neutral to high side of transformer, then on the low side, two wires will exit, with one wire being bonded to ground to maintain the common earth reference that began all the way back at the turbine that spun up to create the power in the first place.
Long ramblings just to explain that if you measure without ground off the secondary side of an inverter that is internally bonded to the negative side of the battery supplying the power, you're not going to get completely accurate results. Thank you for catching this.
Thank you for the info!
thanks for doing the work, nicely done.
A real top off test. Thank.
Thanks pretty informative!
Awesome video 🔥
Some people show, some review, some explain - you, sir - explicate. Greatly appreciated!
I do my best! Thank you for your kind words :)
The reason you do not have to attach the oscilloscope to MAINS POWER GROUND/NEUTRAL (when your oscilloscope is plugged into the same MAINS) when you are measuring it is because your oscilloscope is non isolated. This means the ground plane is already connected from the outlet. So when you are measuring the voltage, you are already referenced to the system under test. If you attached your ground probe to the HOT of the same supply your oscilloscope is connected to accidentally, it will likely fry your oscilloscope (unless the lead fries itself first). That is why you never attach the ground probe to a system that is non-isolated from your oscilloscopes supply.
In the case of attaching to inverter module, you absolutely need to attach to the neutral/ground. It is electrically isolated from your oscilloscope, as it is the new power source with no electrical reference to the ground of the oscilloscope.
The reason your fume extractor runs poorly off the supply is because its an induction motor (as such, an inductive load). The inverter can't supply enough current for when the fan first starts since there is no back EMF yet to reduce the apparent load, which is why the fan starts so slow. It will continue to run poorly as the modified sinewave is outputting 0V at the points when the motor would attempting to pull current from the source, and result in a poor power factor.
Looks like I'll have to pick one of these up to have some ez portable power around the shop!
You are absolutely correct on your first point. An inverter does need a reference. I was "playing up" the difference between the wall and this inverter (I am not the greatest actor). I see that I was not clear enough. I will try to do better in the future. Thank you for your input!
@@IllInformedHuman considering how deeply you understand the subject matter that is a very humble response? The world would benefit greatly from more individuals like the 2 of you...
@@johnpusch1376 Thank you! I appreciate you pointing that out :)
Informative thank you !
Good video bro ... Testing the way form
Trust in the way! I need to upgrade my equipment though... One day...
@@IllInformedHuman I just upgraded my scope ... I bought the $800 one ... Unlock the Firmware ... And turned it into $4000 Scope
I was real surprised to see this work for my Traeger. Great video man!
What Traeger were you powering with this? And for how long with what battery?
Great video
Nice video thanks
Awesome thanks
Love mine awesome tool
Sounds like Ave's brother.
I use this for soldering and dremel when installing car audio. ❤
Excellent uses!
good video..all others opens the package and play with it
Exactly! I was a little surprised at how nobody looked into it at depth.
So square and modified square sine waves from inverters are not harmful to consumer electronics as indicated on the M18 top-off?
For most consumer electronics, no it is not harmful. If you have something that uses the input power for say... timing, this would damage it (think consumer medical).
And of course, since Milwaukee Tool wants to limit liability, they will of course state that you should use at your own peril!
@IllInformedHuman
Thanks for the video! Would this be good to run a modem or laptop?
Yea, you would be fine. The power supply unit is capable for taking odd voltages for both of those devices.
Thanks for posting the waveforms and measurements. It is hard to justify paying so much for a stepped square-wave inverter even if it works with M18 batteries. It would have been a good value if it put out a pure sine wave but the device's stepped square wave is not very impressive in 2022. The warning "OUTPUT NON-SINUSOIDAL" on the product label is a problem. The user is supposed to know which of their devices will work properly with square wave power. For me the replacement cost of my laptop power supply is too high to risk using a inverter with a warning like that on the label. I won't be buying a small inverter until they make one that outputs a true sine wave.
I found that it's best use is for AC powered lights or a bug zapper that I can take camping now. Thanks for watching!
The important thing to know is electronic equipment can be damaged or destroyed or even explode if connected to that SHAPE of power wave. There is a story of an audio equipment repair technician friend of mine called to service an expensive studio mix board that was being modified by the studio owner. Tech asked studio owner; "Before you power it up, are you sure you know what you are doing?' Owner said "Yes". Tech: "Okay, its your board sir." Owner powers up his mix board then all 96 channels of his $million dollar SSL mix board blow up in sequence, one at a time, smoke rising over each channel one at a time. Next, tech was hired to fix it (after it stopped smoking). He made a lot of $ off that guy.
Definitely! Expensive stuff should have filtering, even with a reliable mains supply. Though... In your example, it sounds like there was more going wrong than just dirty power. Thanks for sharing!
Does the Milwaukee Power-Up have a cutoff to protect the battery cells against overdischarge? I can't find the answer in any review.
Unfortunately, I have not tested with the topoff. All other Milwaukee tools protect the battery, so I would assume this does the same.
Can you make a vid on the Dewalt $40 inverter that plugs into the car, i think it rated at 150w similar to that Milwaukee inverter, thank you
I do not own any Dewalt devices (And don't really want to). Most of the car adapter inverters "cheap out" and go with square wave inverters. It will get the job done if you are in a pinch. However... It will interfere with your radio if you have an older car! And of course, do not plug in any sensitive electronics, same as the TopOff.
@@IllInformedHumanWhat would you consider a sensitive electronic? I got a 400w power inverter for my car, my laptop power brick is rated at 200w, I like to go outdoors often and work remotely, is the laptop/laptop charger considered a sensitive device? Will this be harmful for my laptop in a long term? I was planning to buy the off to replace the car inverter, now I am not even sure that I should continue to use either.
@@RobertoGonzalez-zd5mq A laptop charger is a rectifier and is not sensitive. It usually has a voltage range printed on the underside label. If you are always within that range, you are not causing any damage. Most brands in the USA design rectifiers to function on less than 100VAC.
It is also good that you have something that will provide double your power needs, this will ensure it keeps a steady voltage output. You should be good to go!
Thank you very much for making this video. After seeing that waveform I would not buy a Top-Off inverter.
The waveform is not that bad for an inverter. It works "fine" if you are in a pinch. But I would not rely on the thing, that is for sure.
Would this be able to power up a internal pump in an air mattress? I got a Intex Premaire II that requires a 120W AC outlet.
Yea, you would be good to go! A 4AH battery would probably be enough to blow it up
No idea what you said or what im looking at but ive used the top off to charge everything from m12 batteries for my heated jacket to my phone and laptop. All i want to know is if i can use the top off with my coffee pot. Guess i could plug it in and try but im scared.
No you cannot, the smallest drip coffee maker needs ~500watts. This thing can only produce 175W :(
So I've got a question for you. If you take a extension cord and add in a spliced tail. So that there are 2 male ends and one female and And then plug it into 2 Milwaukee top offs does Is that double your available electrical Ambridge. therefore using 2 Milwaukee topoffs to power bigger appliances such as a coffee maker
Unfortunately, connecting a load up to two inverters will likely result in each inverter (the topoff in this case) trying to "feed" each other. With the best case scenario being they sense an overload and turn off. In order to use inverters in parallel, you have to set them up in master/slave configuration. Which, in the topoff's case, would involve cracking them open and tinkering.
Ambridge? Do you mean amperage?
Hi good video good info
Can I use this for my freezer if power go out ???
Most chest freezers will only consume about 100Watts of power at 120VAC. So the answer is... probably! As long as the chest freezer does not consume more than 175Watts (roughly 10-15 Cu. ft. freezer).
@@IllInformedHuman thanks 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾God bless
No hope in Hell for a freezer or any motor loads over 3amp i would say. Not designed for this..
@@SuperGreyfox99 Thanks 4 da info God Bless
Do you think with a 12v Milwaukee battery
Does it posible to use paint sprayer
The device in the video needs an 18V battery. For the 12V battery, they only have something that gives you USB power.
What will be damaged if I repeatedly short-circuit this thing? (Hot-to-neutral). Thanks
That has accidentally happened to me, all it did was turn off. It would then try to turn on and then go off right away. So... it appears to check for that, I have no clue how often you can do that 😅
I have a habit of researching certain aspects of an item AFTER buying it. Glad I snagged mine for $73 off eBay.
I don’t know why I decided to learn about whether or not it’s a sine wave until after I bought it 😫
I am quite disappointed in Milwaukee. Sometimes you assume they care and then you have to realize it’s only for profit. What more would it cost for pure sine wave?
This is certainly something they threw together "just cause". To make it pure sine wave, it would likely get bigger, maybe cost an extra $20?
@@IllInformedHuman keep in mind that EGO makes a 400 watt continuous inverter with pure sine wave for only $149.
I’ll probably get one as I’ve just joined the EGO Outdoor line for blower and string trimmer.
@@takenusername Neat! If I ever get one of their lawn mowers I may have to toss that inverter in the cart as well 😀
How clean was the DC side ? .... USB side
\
DC to DC conversion is usually difficult to screw up, so I didn't bother testing.
I am curious how the ryobi inverter compares
🤔
First of all they have inverters for the truck buy one second this this is good for charging your on job speaker or headphones. And using a fan to cool off on hot days.
I love my truck bed inverter. This tool is primarily used to power the few AC powered lights I have laying around. I never have a fan blowing on me unless I am forced to work down south 🤣
Could i power my jbl 710 party box with this? It draws 160 watts.
Also, regarding speakers, do they need a pure sinewave?
you would be good to go with the party box. As for pure sine-wave, there is massive debate on that... It will work, those with well tuned ears claim there is a difference.
@Ill-Informed Human if i bought this i would use it anyways. The ability to run my speaker if i needed a bit of portability would be awesome
And, back to the land in Alaska.... How much are we talking per acre? And do you owner finance?
🤣
Would this be okay to use with a Dremel 3000 ?
According to the manufacturer, it is 180W (1.5A @12VAC) so technically no... The Topoff's max power out is 175W. But I am sure that is peak power consumption. As long as you stayed at the middle speed, I bet the Topoff could handle it.
could top off damage a lap top charging?
This is a modified sine wave, so it is very unlikely (Engineers never say "never"). If it were to damage anything, it would be the power supply that plugs into the lap top. So hopefully that gives you some added feeling of security.
I wonder how it would compare to the Ryobi inverter, similar results?
Looking at the description on the home depot, Ryobi claims that the output is a modified sine wave, so yes! Milwaukee did not specify when I first bought the top-off, which is why I made this video.
Will this be able to handle 120v 60hz 11.8A ?
120V*11.8A=1,416W
Which is greater that the 175W this unit is capable of supplying.
@@IllInformedHuman thank you
Trevor S brings up some interesting and much more scientific understanding of this unit. This unit generates a pseudo sine wave output that is ok for some loads but not all. There are many types of loads that could be damaged by this type of output. You do not have the background to make many statements about the operation of this device-leave that to a person that has knowledge in the area of AC power generation-i.e., an engineer.
I blame it on bad acting... Check out my reply to his comment. It's tough being entertaining and informative. Thank goodness they removed the dislike button :P
I'm not sure I'd buy one, I don't see much use for it, if at least it was also a battery recharger.
The DC power bank option is nice. And I will agree that the Watt max limits the usefulness of this product.
You save me from ordering this piece of Garbage! Thanks!
Always happy to help any way I can!
I should of bought one on the fathers day sale
Just buy one now, totally worth it.
It was $150 with a 5.0 battery
@@joejoe6949 yea they have the same set up on ebay…
I did purchase a quad charger (offbrand) from amazon, charges in parallel for milwaukee batteries, it was $90 and i got some 6.0 off brand batteries for $45 and they have worked really good. I have not tested the battery life on some of my more draining tools (sds, sawzaw, or circular saw) but the fitment and performance has been great so far in my fuel hackzaw, drill and impact
@@joejoe6949 That is a pretty sweet deal. I would have bought a second one if I saw that.
I *of* thought about it too.
Was anyone actually expecting a pure sine wave out of such a small and weak inverter?
You would be surprised...
bought one of these and max a.c. volts was 98 regardless of load or no load. same with the second one that bought. they promise 120 volts on the advertisement. not even close. maybe you should put in a resume and make there inverter work as advertised. aloha.
Sorry to hear that, trying to run something that low on the voltage range might cause some damage.
@@IllInformedHuman been buying there tools for over 30 years. this is the only product of theirs i have returned for lack of performence. guessing they subbed the contract for this product out to lowest bidder. i emailed there corporate complaint department, but received no word back. bogus.
A lot of people have reported this voltage in Milwaukee says it’s because you’re not using a good multimeter. RMS something or other.
@@patty109109 lol. thats bullshit, been doing electrical construction for over 30 years. my meter works fine. i test it on live current all the time. testing for voltage is a very easy job for a meter, and ideal make great testing equipment. there are so many comments like mine saying there top off does not work as advertised. i have thousands of dollars worth of there tools. love them all. the top of sucks. back to the drawing board. case closed. aloha.
Was wondering if 2 top offs would give you 220/240 😂
Maybe if you believe hard enough! LOL
This video could have been 5min
Or you could have just read the back of the product and saved yourself even more time!
It's overpriced for sure. But most Milwaukee products are overpriced. Nobody is going to damage anything using this. You can plug a laptop in and it's not getting damaged. If it has a rectifier you'll be fine. Ask yourself what you plan on plugging into to this 175-watt inverter... then ask yourself if it has a rectifier on the power cord or inside.
One more overrated battery powered device from Milwaukee.
I has it's uses. I am sure not everyone would need it. I would rather a company put out a variety of products if they can :)