It's weird but like... I think this is actually conversion therapy? Like it's conversion therapy for cis men who don't feel like they're doing a good enough job being cis men.
@@theautisticguitarist7560 I kind of see what you are saying, but I don't think many people voluntarily go through conversion therapy. Usually they're forced by their family.
gender affirming care should be available for everyone, trans or cis, but y'know, with actual professional oversight maybe, not just dudes-of-means trying to be ubermensch
@@theautisticguitarist7560I actually really appreciate that comparison. Never been to conversion therapy, I came out after the age I could have been sent, but it does strike me as a pretty spot on comparison based on what I know
My grandma is from coal country in WV and had to wear pants to do a paper route by bike in the 1930s. She said men, women, and kids would throw rocks at her sometimes in the larger town next to her own. My great-grandpa had to follow her with a shotgun in his big ass farm truck to let folks know his little girl wasn't going to "mangle herself in a skirt." No rock issues after that.
I know it's not the point, but.. why didn't she ride in the truck if it was there anyway? But to contribute something of more value - When trousers were 'invented' - or at least adopted in Europe, they were a woman's garment. Historically it's been the norm for men to wear something akin to a 'skirt'. Jesus got around in a dress - I've seen the pictures. And if anything - it makes more sense that way around. Trousers are more restrictive in places that women don't have.
Your friend who said boot camp is all a game is sooo very correct!!! I had a drill sergeant throw a laundry bag over my head and try to suffocate me with it. I just stood there the whole time. After a few seconds when he realized i was not going to fight back, he stopped, removed the bag from my head, and asked why i didn't freak out. I told him that he doesn't want to kill me, that would mean way more paper work than he would want to deal with. He then told me to drop and do push ups but he never tried to fuck with me again like that.
@@monsterram6617 now they maybe. 20 years ago they were cloth. It might have been one of those old water proof bags that were made of rubber and vinyl.
Their kink is having money at all costs, but they didn't have the connections to become drug dealers or the intellect to become pharmacists or gumption to become creationists.
It's a given at mainstream spaces people are going to turn to kink on understanding trans issues. But they literally don't want to become something they don't think they are. When they do it, it's a wedge issue. When Fascists do the same thing, then half of Europe dies.
They wouldn't scum tourism at our middle class/working class munches if someone paid them. I'm all for doms making that dollar dollar but don't shame me for wearing affordable leather/latex to my own fucking event bro.
It's wild that people dislike being short. I love it. I'm short, 5'6 - 5'5 1/2 maybe. I'm a smaller target. I am compact and will statistically live longer and retain more mobility as I age. I'm not uncomfortable on Spirit flights. I was a bouncer and nobody wanted to fight me because they were either the kinda person who didn't see me as a threat, or they were the kinda person who didn't want to lose a fight to a manlet. That's both types of bar guys right there. Easy job. The only bad thing about being short is that you'll constantly get your pants pockets caught on the knobs and handles of cabinets and drawers. That's it. I haven't noticed much of an effect on my love life. I've had one partner that wasn't taller than me. Then again, I also don't care enough to notice if it has had an effect. Everybody should be short. One of the most effective propaganda campaigns in human history is the idea that being short is somehow abnormal. No. The world belongs to the short people. Always has, always will.
Also, most of the world is shorter than the US, but average height for men in my country is 5"6 and for women is 5"2, I'm the exactly average and I don't have many problems, other than pants and things in tall places.
I mean to be honest, I expect that a lot of the hatred of being short comes from being bullied or made fun of people for being short. As someone 5'3'' who had a cousin who was 6'11'' and talked extensively about how crappy being overly tall was, he and I talked being bullied for our respective opposite heights over and figured out that (anecdotally) it seems like it's often medium height people lashing out at both short and tall people and making both ends of the spectrum wrongly mad at each other. But when people treat you cruelly in childhood, that can be hard to shake off, so people end up internalising it as a personal flaw. Or at least that's my read on it.
The only downside to being short is the availability of properly fitting pants. I'm a woman at least, so petite clothing theoretically exists for me, I image its harder for men without delving into the boy's section. We must expand pant size selection...or learn to do minor alterations, I guess...
If you were about four inches shorter like my Dad, you might mind more. Some of the stories he tells are absolutely harrowing--mostly for the guys who were dumb enough to hit on his wife, my mom, in front of him. He literally tore off a guy's face with a busted bottle once. Had to burn his favorite pair of white jeans. God the early 90s were wild.
Point of clarification: 8chan predates Gamergate. It was created sometime before when 4chan banned child pornography. 8chan was made specifically as place where chuds could look at kiddie porn. Gamergate certainly did boost their profile, though.
the fun thing is as much as 4chan become this online boogeyman it had *lot* of offshoots during its history because its management team found some aspects of its userbase too much. 8chan is far from the first.
There's a really good writeup on Bibanon that covers the entire history of 4chan that I highly highly recommend reading. Just search for "Bibanon 4chan history" and you'll find it.
You could have just joined the military, had less of an abusive bootcamp , and get a paycheck from the Department of Defense, rather than pay someone 12K to torture you.
Hell, you could pay me $12,000 dollars and I'd spend the week baking you cookies, watching movies with you and listening to your takes on them, and tucking you in at night and reading you bedtime stories about atomic knights fighting space vampires. You can even carry around a big hammer the whole time and I'll say how cool it is.
56:14 the idea that women only go after a top percentage of identical features is one of the biggest lies of this whole ethos Women are not a monolith Look at shipping culture and fanfic culture There are plenty of women whose ideal man is so radically different from anything that would be considered the top percent.
This is always my comment, I always say we are not a hive mind, specially because what I find attractive is the exact opposite of what they think women like.
My wife is really obsessed with Nier Automata right now, and one thing she has noticed is that a lot of the fan art is just 2B holding 9S like a baby, or coddling him. This is something I notice with a lot of other fandoms, that women often pine over what was described as "soft bois" in a lecture I once heard at the PAMLA Conference last year in Portland (I don't remember the academics names). Specifically they were talking about women's attraction to Howl from Howl's moving castle. It seems like women ogle over soft bois as much as they do with burley buff men, yet culturally women are often told that they should pursue the latter.
@@SleepyMatt-zzz The funny thing is, being a lurker in some of these spaces begrudgingly, there's a large swath of guys caught up in the masculinity scare who joke and genuinely pine about "If women only loved the small/nerdy/shy guys" when in reality if they took 5 steps outside their bubble and into the real world they'd find this is a massive market! Like the whole meme about the "Tumblr sexyman" when that site was alive existed for a reason. Unfortunately I feel like it's battered down by 1) The grifters they listen to and the culture of the space reinforce the idea that any girl who *does* express an interest in them is either lying, manipulative, or self-deluded and instead write them all off and try and pursue an unobtainable and most likely unfulfilling ideal or 2) They have legitimate dysphoria (imposed or not) and don't feel comfortable with themselves and attempt to justify their feelings by saying it's what women want At least in the first case if these guys took some time to branch out and exist among normal women, so many of them would become deradicalized. Unfortunately the culture is self-reinforcing to a degree that it's almost cultish in aspects.
I wonder what the research is. Toxic standards ot manhood has been the social software for what society at large has considered desirable in a man. In my experience most men and women bias men as being higher quality being protector providers objects of success and power. (Wealthy/tall/physically strong) Its all offshoots of patriarchal norms that men and women have been socialized into. Just because there are exceptions bc people are messy, doesnt mean its not the norm. Probability > possibility
The boot camp videos reminded me of a story from my time at college. My dorm of skinny computer nerds had an intramural volleyball team. It was just a fun little thing and we didn't really take it too seriously but we had some good moves. One of the frats had a team that took themselves and the game far too seriously. Lots of chest bumps and butt slaps and most noticeable, every time they lost a point some or all of them would drop and do pushups. I had two gifts in volleyball- I was 6'3" and could block almost any spike, and an underhand serve that looked like middle school gym, but was really a drop shot I could sail then sink like it hit an invisible wall. It gave me great joy to score 5 points in a row and watch the frat jocks get distinctly slower at their pushups as we went on.
People underestimate nerds. My dad was a pocket protector comic book nerd/geek back in the 70s. Meanwhile he was also alphadudebroing it up since the 70s. He was 6"2" and lanky but all muscle. And because he had long limbs, his arms had WAY more muscle on them than it appeared. (Side note: this is something that makes a lot of women actually prefer shorter dudes. The same amount of muscle looks a LOT bulkier kn short men simply because their limbs are shorter.) My brother is the biggest nerd ever and he terrifies a lot grown men of many sizes (I knowbthese arrived toxic examples bit unfortunately that's what happens when you have multiple millenia of generational trauma and you both intentionally breed for mental health issues to make "better soldiers" and refuse to get your children said needed mental help.)
This is literally just degradation BDSM without the aftercare. I would say it lacks the happy ending too but honestly I wouldn't doubt if it's happened incidentally...
Someone needs to tell these guys there are COOL dudes out there who will have loving, gentle homosexual relationships with them, getting screamed at in the ocean by a roided up bear daddy isn't the only way they can make love
Confident short men have nothing on a confident dude in a wheelchair. I had a buddy who had one growth plate on a leg never develop, so he was in a wheelchair 90% of the time. The amount of women I saw that man pick up by just confidently rolling his ass onto a dance floor and asking the most attractive woman to do a “spinneroo and a wheelie, cuz he can’t dance” is incredible.
It’s funny to me, as a girl now woman, that throughout history (white history/men) men’s degree of comfort in society was directly linked to the “health” of the myth of women’s weakness. I was an only child, adopted, with a malignant narcissist as a mother that was anything but weak. There were no girls in my neighborhood so I grew up playing with all the boys. Never occurred to me there was a difference. I would fight with them, bloody noses everything, and remember the horror when turning 13 one of them expressed an interest that wasn’t running through the woods pretend shooting at each other. My communication style reflects my childhood development. To the point, less is more. Emotions are uncomfortable. Small talk a torture. Finishing school and entering the workplace and having my ideas dismissed, the sharassment, talked down to, patronized, I never was able to respond in ways that reinforced the dynamics. I fought back. I had to learn. Be taught from my fellow female workers and friends I was making how to disguise intelligence and how to “make it seem like they came up with the idea” in order to get anything possibly adopted. I was heartbroken. Not only did I need to learn I wasn’t viewed as equal, but I was starting to also view men as unequal. Weak. Unable to compete without an acceptance of women that they deserved the positions in upper management and c level based on nothing more than gender. It’s sad to me that so much attention has been spent throughout history on the anxiety, mental health, taking the temperature, and horrifically toxic behaviors accepted or excused of men (white, mostly), without the other side of that coin getting the same examination. The acceptance of that dynamic and structure by women and all we had to go through, give up, endure in order for them to be able to pay 12k to be screamed at (hell, we’d do it for free…trust me).
You don't have to be a woman for your boss and parents to be toxic in those ways. And, considering that this comments section has multiple people remarking on how few men go to therapy, I am unsure how that industry stays afloat if men are the only ones whose mental health society cares about. I think the most ardent non-white feminist and the most intense white conservative would both find fault in what you said.
@iivin4233 I don't think that was their point. Women are talked down to in a way men simply aren't, at least not nearly as often. The point wasn't that men are never the victims of toxic masculinity. The only real fault I'd take from the OP is that they singled out White men doing this. It is true for any race of men and women.
@@iivin4233 You are correct. You don’t have to be a woman. However, considering child bearing women have been reduced to incubators or, if something goes wrong, coffins in many states, basically becoming property of the state as soon as they conceive, it seems pretty skewed and dire. I know that it isn’t all Mai Tai’s and Yahtzee for men either. They experience domestic abuse but aren’t believed and shamed, don’t seek professional help because of stigma and struggle with their roles as well. None of it is easy. It’s harder to have an openness to reaching out right now because of the very large and loud group that is yearning for going back to the late 1700’s when, as Mike Johnson said, was the last time we were “moral”. I’m sure he knows people were owned and the majority had no voice in this country. The “good old days”.
The fear of seed oils is the unhealthiest perspective these guys could take, specifically grape seed oil, because grape seed oil is one of the few oils that doesn't start hydrogenating till above the cooked temperature of most meats, so grape seed is one of the most healthy oils to cook with. Not to mention Omega fatty acids which many people take flax oil to get. Do they consider olive oil seed oil? Wasn't it a super manly thing at one point to drink olive oil? What the hell? Love the comparison to cargo cults by the way. Such a perfect analogy. From now on I think I will be calling the manosphere "Cargo cult manhood". It just fits. Thank you for giving me that.
This form of masculinity is a performative and competitive method of identity construction - it *has* to change, otherwise the competition becomes stagnant, and the sales pitch loses its edge. If olive oil was the perfect manly thing everyone has to take last week, this week it has to be the most effeminate thing you could imagine, and [insert thing] is today's consumable masculinity token. BrainForce is just Goop for guys.
You don't get olive oil from the seed but the fruit, same with avocado oil. I think the fear of seed oils stems not from phytoestrogens (to begin with) but because of the preservation methods. They cover the smell of rancid oil during processing with chemicals that may be really bad for health in the long run. Manosphere dudes are afraid of everything with estrogen, even printed receipts!
@@SpaghetteMan That gap is access and culture, it's expensive and people grow up in a culture that tells them they are less manly when they have feelings other than anger and that it is weakness to want and ask for support, there are many different types of therapy and one probably could fit these people needs.
I sincerely appreciate Robert discussing the ACTUAL major issue for modern American masculinity. Loneliness, isolation and the lack of community, the lack of support and the inability to be emotional or vulnerable. Toxic masculinity hurts men just as much as women, if not more. Making friends as an adult man in America is very hard.
You're very right, but as a guy born and raised in the Nordics I'd just add that this isn't so much an issue of america or any spesific country, it's a pretty much global issue now because the late stage capitalism that's brought many of these issuesn about affects us all. This is not to say there aren't differences in like how bad the situation is because the societal structures do play a role. It's much easier in Europe (for the most part) to live and socialize without owning a car, access to health care is better etc, so there are differences, but the root problems are still the same for men everywhere, or ar least everywhere in the so called "western world". Stay in touch with your friends guys, and ask them how the fuck they're doing.
Yeah and once they're in the toxic masculinity trap, no one wants to be around them due to their conduct and views. It's very difficult to escape at that point.
Pretty much, and it's probably not that hard to fix, just let people have more free time and build community spaces again,also,maybe walkable cities. I imagine needing to get in a car to do anything can be very limiting. Also, there is even a women's version of these camps, some specific types of spiritual retreats, also, church, my mom goes to church specifically because she made friends there.
Always say this. If you are not perceived as a possible threat, it's harder not to be lonely. Compare a female friend and a male friends tinder. Consider the gaslight of women do not like toxic masculinity and see men who are not toxic get passed over (not me, I am a mess...I am talking about friends with good jobs, kind and just not macho). Not women's fault but structural issue. Women have so many worse problems worse than men (harassment, sa etc). Loneliness isn't one of them. Doesn't mean these idiots aren't toxic they are a symptom.
Another perspective, look at the experience of transmen. Male friendships are not as emotionally supportive. It's not nice to be perceived as invisible or a threat. I am not quoting some fascist here. I am quoting contrapoints.. queen of the youtube left who as a transwoman has seen both sides.
All this Bastard Money bringing up the production value!!!! Another Mega Masculine Podcast 🏋🏾♂️ now I’ve gotta go yell at my kids on the beach so they can be CEO’s later 👍
38:00 Yes! Bicycle panic! Bifurcated garments! Hat pins to stab creeps! Won't someone think of the men! Also if riding a bike caused me to be sterile, I'd save a lot of money (and momentary horrible pain) on getting my IUD inserted every three years.
Gamergate utterly shattered me as a person. Didn't realize it's still doing so in every other part of our lives, thanks for the insight BtB crew, honestly this episode gave me so much understanding of all of our problems for all of our history. Appreciate it very much.
I was going to say the same thing. It doesn’t make it any less of a masculinity driven harassment campaign, but the least we can do for them is to correctly refer to them
I went through basic training in 1979 and my recruiter told me that it was a game, so yeah, I played the game and it wasn't that bad. The drilling, marching and training were actually kind of fun and though you have to get lots of shots and other medical poking and prodding along the way, those folks were nicer than the drill instructors. So, getting up at 5 am, folding clothes into six inch squares, barracks GI parties and learning to make tight hospital corners was something I could do for six weeks of my life. The PT was a bore though because it rained most of the time and we did a bit of calisthenics and a lot of running in place under an overhang. The upside to the rain was that we learned a bunch of cool close drilling moves.
@sheryliversen8869 My dad kind of explained it like that too. He hated the system and thought the authoritarianism was ridiculous, but he had fun with the running and the shooting and the camping because he liked that stuff already. He was also one of those guys who came out of the military like "don't", though, and he was just stationed in Berlin. He told me he made it through by playing the game as a way to survive his term there and said he bugged his COs because he was reasonably good at all the army stuff they needed him do to (and even came second in a some...gun...contest thing. He said he was good at sniping) but didn't want to do it because he didn't give a crap about the military and didn't want to be there. Obviously doing it for the draft is a different experience than signing up voluntarily, and I guess that's partially why some of our parents are so fucked up. Fun facts: my dad worked security for the "Ich bin eine Berliner" speech and told me he was able to make lots of friends in Berlin by getting quietly drunk instead if noisily drunk like his peers.
@siobhanroberts2329 thank you for sharing your dad's story, but i'm dying laughing at calling an army marksmanship program's sharpshooter competition "some gun contest thing" when most of those competitors will pin their awards as some of their highest value ribbons on their dress uniforms. Hope your dad at least got to enjoy being deployed in Berlin, and wasnt persuaded by the inherently authoritarian nature of the military
@callsignapollo_ Laugh away! Finding out how important this is to regular people is really funny for me too, because it underscores how little my dad gave a crap about the entire thing, and never calling it anything other than a "sniping contest I came second in" is so him. Imagine Martin Short but probably autistic and really good at guns for some reason. He would rather have been singing pirates of penzance or reading. That's why I know nothing about the actual military. He never really talks about it other than to tell me the same few funny stories and to talk about how the boot camp system is designed to break you down and rebuild you into a killing machine in a way that fundamentally destroys your soul and ability to be gentle and nurturing. So he didn't give in to the authoritarian nature of the army, lol. He came out more anti-authoritarian than he already was. He corrects people who say "draft dodger" by saying "draft resister". Anyway thanks for letting me talk about my dad some more. He's way cooler than I'll probably ever be.
@callsignapollo_ I thought I replied to you but a random like brought me back here and apparently I didn't. My lack of knowledge about this award underscores how little of a crap my dad gave about his time in the army and just makes it funnier. He never talked about it other than that he was "rather good" at shooting and had won a second place sniping award. He never showed off any military paraphernalia and as far as I know/he told me he got rid of it because he didn't want to remember that time in his life. I've seen the journal he kept to help him get over it though. He definitely ended up the opposite of authoritarian. He got arrested multiple times for protesting Vietnam, was in Canadian Greenpeace in the 80s, and didn't even allow his kids (me lol) to have nerf guns because he was so anti gun. He honestly has some Forrest Gump-ass stories. He was security for the ich eine berliner speech.
@@siobhanroberts2329 If you replied in the dropdown from the notifications, I guess it doesn't always work (it never works for me) but if you click on the thumbnail of the video, it takes you to the comments of the video with the relevant one at the top.
Air Force basic training was probably the least insane. I did mine in 1990. When my older cousin was deciding whether to join, he was very anxious about basic training. This was very funny to me because I was the computer hobbyist, indoor kid, not into sports and such and he was reasonably athletic, super into baseball, probably exercised voluntarily and on purpose. "Basic Training is the worst few weeks of your life but unlike anything else that's the worst few weeks of your life, there are no real consequences after you pass - which you will. Your failures don't follow you, your successes make every day a little easier, and it's more like a bad camping trip - you won't be traumatized by it but you'll get a few stories you'll tell for years. It's a consequence-free bad time."
It should be noted that “the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb” is a real saying. It’s ironically the full version of “blood is thicker than water,” which implies the opposite of the full saying.
My racist grandfather had an acquaintance who owned the convenience store in his very small hometown--the man was a first generation Pakistani-American Sunni Muslim who had a wife and two children living in the country with him. Although my grandfather spoke highly of him and was generally happy to hear his perspective on matters of religion, he refused to allow myself or my sister to become close with his children, always insisting that "blood is thicker than water," to suggest that he could never be trusted to truly be "American" in the way my grandfather saw himself and his family. It's a weird bit of irony in that, even though he very much used the saying in the wrong, truncated way (it was even something I corrected him about at the time), the full saying would apply regardless as he was of a different faith than my grandfather.
Both sayings are as real as the other and they are refutations of each other - meme and counter-meme. It doesn't even really matter which came first as both are by now older than any living person so the only thing that matters is which you think is the truer for you and standing by it. Ps.: If you want to look for it then you can find written evidence that "blood is thicker than water" is older. And from a meme standpoint the shorter one is pithier and easier to remember so it's more infectious. But that's written records and they appear near each other so either one could have been in use in speech.
@@LddStyx The "blood of the covenant" version is quite new. Go looking for a source and you won't find anything older than maybe 30 years. Arguably, the new meaning may have been applied to the original saying at times, but the idea that it's the original saying is bullshit someone made up on the internet. The reason for it is good, because the idea that family ties are more important than any other is used to excuse a lot of abuse and toxicity. But aphorisms don't hold any special wisdom. We don't need a new aphorism to say that people should choose who they hold closest.
It was originally "blood of battle" as it was used by soldiers to express the trauma bonds they formed while serving in active combat was often stronger than the ones formed by birth. A lot of family often couldnt relate when they came back home and joking the miltary was often an escape for kids that come from poor amd broken homes to escape that life for a better one. Meaning it used to be common for soldiers to come from bad, broken homes with poor familial ties to begin with. @@crossroadswanderer
I think what made it seem so awkward and weird is the odd cadence and shting tone of the guy speaking. Like he sounded so unconfident about using it while trying to project confidence. Like he didn't really believe it or something. (Or that's how it came across to me.)
I mean my partner probably could parallel park a big rig but he won me over by 1) being like properly interested in my opinions even if he disagrees and 2) making me LAUGH. Like full on belly laugh. Repeatedly.
To add to one of the later points about the gamification of terrorism, not long after the Christchurch shooting video was released/leaked, there was a version with Doom sounds and effects created. No idea where you would find either of these anymore, not that anyone really should be looking.
I just searched it up, some guy just posted a vid of himself playing it like 3months ago and he has a fucking confederate flag pfp, it’s so fucking over.
Fully expected one of those dudes to use the "I survived because the fire inside me burned brighter than the fire around me" line from Fallout: New Vegas.
I wonder how much of this is kink that people are unwilling to actually engage with in a healthy manner. Like, I've spent less money on BDSM gear and video games combined in my entire life than these guys are paying for this shit, and I could probably get functionally the same thing from both of those activities. I know Robert joked that these guys could pay a domme to do the same thing for cheaper, but honestly I think he might be closer on that than we care to admit. The only difference between a domme and masculinity shit is that the domme is safer and also significantly less socially acceptable.
Is there a healthy way to engage with that kink, or various other kinks? If so many other behaviors can be the expression of past mistreatment or some other problem, might some kinks not also be expressions of past mistreatment or some other problem?
@@iivin4233 That's second part is for someone who knows more about psychology than I do to answer, but to my knowledge the general consensus is that most kinks are a natural variation in human sexuality and they are not necessarily maladaptive. Something is only really a disorder to be fixed if it's in some way maladaptive. There are definitely ways to engage in kink in a healthy manner, and people have been doing it for decades.
@@LethargicScientist As someone who engages in that kind of stuff: there are healthy ways to do it, but it requires thousands of times more introspection than these guys are likely capable of. There are many ways that kink manifests as a reflection of unresolved trauma and in those cases it's most likely *not* a good idea to try and heal through play and should instead be redirected towards therapy, but like you mentioned kink often times doesn't really come from anywhere specific. Sometimes guys just want to get stepped on and that's okay! However the funny (not actually funny) part as it relates to this is, as any kink positive space will likely emphasize, there always should be a clear line between what is "play" and what is real life which is built heavily on CONSENT, a thing that is also unfortunately very muddled in the minds of a lot of these ubermasc guys. Unfortunately for subs it's very easy to get taken advantage of if uninformed or confused about their own feelings (as is probably likely for a non-zero percent of them), and this is where the danger lies most.
@@milii113 I should note, if my original comment didn't make it clear, I engage with kink myself and understand most of that whole side of the equation. My lack of understanding largely relates entirely to the part about unresolved trauma.
@@LethargicScientist Ahh yeah I assumed a bit too much there my bad! I just often see a lot of confusion and ignorance when it comes to kink and people assuming that it's born out of some defect when that's something I feel is more an exception rather than the rule, so I jumped a bit too fast to that conclusion. I was more so attempting to piggyback off your response and provide more info to the person above, sorry for the confusion p.p But while I can't claim to be an expert on the psychological background surrounding it, at least from what I've seen research points to the fact that some people's preferences are linked to past trauma, but that doesn't mean it necessarily has to. I don't think it's far fetched to say that if trauma can manifest in personality issues like obsessive need for control or self-destructive tendencies, then it can certainly cause people to be into kink on one side or the other. There seems to be some research showing that doing BDSM and the like can in some cases help deal with traumatic experiences as they're manifested like that, though obviously not solely that and not without significant efforts to understand and separate fantasy from reality (however I'm not 100% convinced to that and it's certainly something that needs to be researched much more rigorously).
Glad "thick thumbs" got Sophie laughing. Its often hard to find the humor when the topics are so visibly making her uncomfortable. Frankly after so many episodes I am kind of surprised that she hasn't become desensitized. The look on her face often speaks to the truly horrific nature of the story that Robert or Garrison is telling. Good for her! I guess... For not just embracing cynicism in the same way. I guess the show kind of needs that dynamic to keep the viewer grounded in the truly horrific nature of the things Robert is sarcastically playing devils advocate for. In combination I suppose it really effectively highlights the absurdity of the perspectives better than just the sarcasm alone, but still sometimes it does make it harder as a viewer to laugh cynically while watching genuine horror rise in someones eyes. Not that that's a bad thing to be reminded what a healthy reaction would be from someone who isn't just anticipating the very worst out of humanity at all turns. Which is the primary expectation when watching this show.
BTW Thank you for filling the niche of a well produced prolific show that covers individuals involved in corporate/political/military corruption, crime and atrocities from a left leaning perspective. The former channel I had found to fill that niche had a more specifically corporate corruption bent with less comedy, and ended up imploding under the weight of the hosts own hypocrisy when it was revealed that she herself was an abusive manipulative boss (and a plagiarist, but honestly I think the viewers would have forgiven that over the blatant narcissistic hypocrisy). Hypocrisy being something I believe this show is quite immune to due to the number of supposedly sarcastic comments where Robert espouses his personal goals to become a cult leader or dictator, depending on the focus of the episode, and or playing devils advocate for all sorts of terrible things, I think we would be less shocked is all, because he's already warmed us up to the idea. I think the only thing he actually could do to lose the viewers is to be revealed to be a major real world donor to Trumps campaign, or a member of an anti-abortion donor pact, or basically anything that is a legitimately bad political action that doesn't serve his own rise to power. His comments have otherwise prepared us for any personal act of megalomaniacle self service in which he might engage. It's not that hypocrisy is impossible, but it would have to be a non-self serving action, because he has already thoroughly "sarcastically" established his aims for power.
"You have to be a strong man by going to work for 12 hours a day and coming home and not talking to your kids, but also your wife is going to ruin your kids by being home with them all day, which she has to do because she's a woman" Yeah no contradictions here at all, no wonder it worked out so great! It's almost....almost like if those gender roles didn't exist, and there were a way for people to just fulfill whatever role works best for them, things would be....better.
Don't forget that when they DO talk to their kids is usually only because they misbehaved and need punished and that's often the only form of interaction the kids have with their dad...Then the dad wonders why when divorces and separations happen the kids greatly prefer being with mom over him.
I think men need role models who aren't bullies. I see guys who like Andrew Tate and are like "he really helped me with my confidence," and I feel really sorry for them. They deserve better.
And the thing is, they really aren't any more self confident. They just learned how to pretend to be. The fact that so many are so bitter and easily turned to aggression shows. They're still just as fearful and still feel just as inferior, grifters just taught them how to disguise it as a superiority complex. Which is pretty common for hose that have an inferiority complex. They often overcompense by putting on airs and pretending to be over confident and superior. You cam tell the difference based on how easily damaged it is. If they have a true superiority complex or true self confidence, they aren't easily bruised and don't turn to agression so easily.
hearing the opinion men had on what effect the bicycle would have on women reminds me of the meme where someone mentions would were advised against riding trains in fear the uterus would come out of the body (or something like that) and that they have so much respect for women in the past not just going on a violent rampage against men (I'm probably paraphrasing). I don't know if that belief about trains and the woman uterus was truly said at the time, but hearing about how the bicycle was thought to change women's organs, makes me believe its possible they actually said that about trains too. And again, like the op of the meme, i have so much respect for women of the past and their ability to not go on violent rampages against men.
never thought about it that way but you're totally right. If I was born a woman at almost any point in human history I would have almost definitely ended up going absolutely bananas on some dude 😂
We need to cut them some medical slack. They barely had medicine at that point and the train was something that had never existing before, moving at speeds only possible for the fastest animals for many dozens of miles. The foolishness comes in for us who know better.
They also thought women running would dislodge their uterus which is why Women's Marathon wasn't in the Olympics until 1984!!! Men don't learn shit. Just ask one about tampons.
@@iivin4233People said it was ridiculous at the time though, it wasn’t just simply common sense or something. This idea that we can’t criticise ideas people had in the past cus they didn’t know better is so chicken shit. I get that we should give context but what you’re doing is just coping for them lol.
It doesn't feel free most of the time lol. And I wouldn't want guys to attempt solving their problems by talking to women. They quite understandably don't want to hear about those problems.
@@iivin4233 I actually find that most women are actually very sympathetic to problems men face. What gets tiresome for a lot of women is that men will identify problems in their lives but not do anything productive to resolve those problems. That's kind of why there is this ongoing trend of men's girlfriends having to act like their therapists.
At least in my experience it's rooted in 1) Guys not believing that you can have vulnerable conversations with friends and reserve that only for a significant other, leading them to also desperately depend on finding/being in a relationship and 2) Even once they do either become obsessively dependent on this one person as their sole emotional support or continue to be closed off because "They can't show weakness" or some bs like that Both are systemic issues caused largely by the concept of "Masculinity", and as someone who's been on the receiving end of both sides of 2), it's something that's extraordinarily difficult to change because most of the time no amount of compassion and understanding can overcome the sheer volume of shit they're fed in other social spaces. It's genuinely very sad to see But as @SleeyMatt-zzz points out, it's also not on women to bear that burden categorically. Change has to come from within first, and hopefully that allows sympathetic people to facilitate their exit from toxic spaces
@@iivin4233I have never had to pay any money to talk to a woman, and I am shy as hell trying to meet strangers in public. Hell, I have had dates or girlfriends insist on paying for me half the time. Just being friendly costs nothing. You might get blown off sometimes, but if money was the sole reason, they aren't worth your time anyway. Always boggles my mind that the men most concerned about "golddiggers" and "304's" exclusively pay attention to women who are more likely to be after their money. Their loss... I wouldn't want the kind down-to-earth women I count as friends or take as lovers to have to deal with guys who see the world that way.
It originally started out in 3rd world nations that still have diseases such as polio and other afflictions that cause issues with the skeleton. It was used to even out the legs so they could walk properly and with little to no pain. The first one to use it for cosmetics was a teen girl of a wealthy family. Many years ago i watched the documentary about it that followed her though out her yrs of surgeries (they use a chisel to manually break it and set the bones slightly farther apart. They can only do one leg at a time and it takes multiple surgical breaks to get even an inch, let alone multiple. Though I'm sure techniques have changed over the decades since this case.) It was literally just because shebwanted to be a couple inches taller. After that, it became more and more common for those with money to appropriate legitimate medical care for purely cosmetic reasons...Which is very common. Many cosmetic surgeries started out being developed for legitimate health reasons. Then ot was coopted by the wealthy for vanity.
The last part reminds me of HG Wells' original rulebook for wargaming, which contains an iconic introduction explaining how girls just dont get how playing with toys as an adult is actually cool and manly
It must be nice to be a grifter with no ethics or scruples. It seems like it makes life much easier since you can trick people into giving you absurd amounts of money and give them not only nothing in return, but even be abusive, and they thank you for it.
@nomoresuperhero While you are likely correct, one could also call them misguided. If they had been given the right and solid advice they needed, then they likely would've never ended up there
I always gotta point out that one of the most masculine men in fiction, Wolverine, is 5'3". The amount of women that crave his squat manly ass is unreal.
Yep. Prince is my go-to example of a short king who never had an issue getting ladies. He was 5'2". One of the most attractive men on the planet is an F1 driver named Fernando Alonso. He's 5'7". He has a genetic disorder that makes half his chest completely flat (Poland Syndrome). On paper, these manosphere types would tell him he's cooked. In practice, most *male* F1 fans have man-crushes on him. I'm a lesbian, and I have a little crush on this dude.
They should go through basic baseball training in what elementary school boys in Japan go through till highschool. The founding father of Japanese baseball training said the training is not effective unless the trainers is of the verge of death and pissing blood.
I'm very short and have had a million surgeries on my ankle (including inserting an artificial ankle joint). These guys and the doctors who operate on them make me so, so, so angry.
"boot camp is a game, the instructors are playing it, and if you realize it's a game you can play along too and get what you want out of it." I didn't realize it was a game until after it had concluded. I took boot camp so ridiculously seriously 😂
That part about hobbies in the Great Depression is interesting. During the Great Recession running marathons became hugely popular among college educated millennials (myself included). It makes sense that people pressured to succeed their entire lives, who suddenly didn’t have the opportunity to do that would glom on to something like that.
Hobbies are also fun and make you feel better when you do them. It's why self indulgent behavoir tends to trend when teeming are bad or when someone is poor. They're more desperate to shoo away the darkness as they have a lot more of it to contend with than someone that is financially and/or mentally secure. Throughout history hobbies and public sports have been used as a distraction when things are bad. If anything, it's even more important when things are bad it's literally the only really good thing going on in your life.
as a long time listener my favorite thing about the video uploads is seeing the exasperated look on guests' faces when robert says "what's verbing my nouns"
hi im just here to say i love sophie thanks 😂 she's the only sane one 90% of the time except she becomes the unhinged one the other 10% and never knowing when she's gonna flip to unhinged is vastly entertaining to me 😅 btw thanks for this video format i really love being able to finally see yall after listening for years 😂❤ 6:43 I'm a bit younger than robert and miles (I graduated hs in 2012 lmao) but I agree with them, i think there was a brief moment in youth culture around 2006-2008 where the scene/emo/alternative subculture became sort of mainstream for a minute and even tho I was like just barely a teenager at the time (13 in 2007 for reference) I do recall people being a little more accepting of the "weird" kids like me and my friends (turns out i was just Mentally Ill and autistic but ofc I didn't realise that until I was in college). anyway lots of horrible things from that time period but I don't think it's just nostalgia Robert's remembering here, like there was actually a tangible feeling of inclusiveness for a hot minute there. and then ofc we hit the "preppy" takeover of the 2010s that kicked the alt kids back to being the outsiders but it was nice while it lasted 😂 9:27 NO LITERALLY LMAO I had the same thought 😂 41:45 brb changing my name to general lunacy 50:58 the wildest part of this to me is that it seems a lot of the men wanting to be taller are doing it "for women" but like,, if they just, idk, asked a woman, most women I know (including myself, and I am 5'9" btw) consider height like basically irrelevant in a partner. sure it would be nice to have someone similar to my height but a few inches taller or shorter isn't really smth I care about, like if I met a guy with a great personality who I enjoy spending time with, I'm not gonna be like "oh but he's only 5'6" so ig he's trash and I can't date him" cos that's INSANE lmao. also, just wanted to add: if someone you're potentially romantically interested in immediately nopes out if they realise you're short, DONT DATE THEM. fr you don't wanna be with someone who's that shallow that they refuse to give you a chance based on your height (this applies to any and all physical characteristics btw).
Men fixate on height because it is in general hard to meet women. So they can change many things about themselves, but the things they can't really change obsess them. Because you can always think about how life would be different having something you never will. Dating for hetero men is in general difficult and isolation makes some people crazy.
I've heard of the kind of therapy that makes you taller... In a documentary about dwarfism. Like the guy who underwent it was so short it made moving in this world, made for people of average height, more difficult. Being slightly over 150 cm literally improved the quality of his life. Seeing the guys who are, like, the height of an average woman undergo the same procedures as this disabled person just to feel more manly is kinda hillarious in its own twisted way
A 1hr session with my trauma specialized therapist is $150 out of pocket. For $12,000, he could get 80 therapy sessions. Thats literally a year and a half of therapy if he went once per week.
To be fair i think there is a niche for non abusive man camps. You go for a week or two, hang around other men and you camp outside together. And while there you are taught basic live skills. You get taught basic auto repair, basic plumbing, how to clean and butcher an animal, cooking, basic survival and so on. Basically building up the participants self worth through learning useful skills and male bonding. It wont be for everyone, but i feels it will help some guys who feel kinda lost in life.
this whole time I thought the show stops dead while I’m flung into social casino style games on my favorite pastime app, Chumba Casino. Keep up the posts gang!
You can at least justify this stuff for the military because it is a job that requires a lot of physical discomfort, and desensitization to that is probably a good idea. For the money they spend on these tough guy camp, you could absolutely buy a pesonal trainer to make you stronger physically, a therapist to make you stronger mentally, and if you still need someone to spit on you to feel good, a dominatrix, and still have money leftover. All these guys get out of this is a sign over their heads that says, "I am an easy mark, and this is what I'm insecure about." Back in the day, it was a sports car they would sell you. Now it's this.
Unironically, i was one of the idiots who fell for gamergate hook line and sinker, had been following to like MRA stuff for a while and got all righteously angry at 16-17 over it. To anybody still in the like weird space, things get better. It took me a long time to stop being hateful but education did me wonders. The loneliness issue though for real its such a huge part of shit like this. I only broke into being a right wing mra so long ago because of being dumped by a girl (I know its stupid as shit 12 years of hindsight and all that). Don't let that negative shit rule you. You will get better all things come with time. Its about the efforts you put into yourself to improve in a meaningful way.
I apologize to all the women I told findom was fake because no man would actually participate. I am ashamed to say it took a man to show me the error of my ways. I will be enrolling in Rocko's Hard Bod Boys2Men Tough Guy Experience to strengthen me going forward.
@@justcommenting4981 No see that's sexual and being sexual is wrong. It's so much more normal to pay thousands of dollars to get degraded and ordered around for a week by a muscular dominant figure, in a TOTALLY NOT SEXUALLY GRATIFYING WAY, GUYS IT'S NOT SEXUAL I SWEAR
Not only do I know moms love Eminem, I also learned today that Janelle Brown (ex sister-wife of Sister Wives fame) listens to a lot of Eminem on her workout playlists I am online too much
As someone who is five feet tall. I can calmly say that my aversion to pain cleanly stifled any possibility of me wanting to even tangentially think of limb elongation surgery.
I just wanna say I'm listening to this while riding on my bike trainer in the kitchen after work while my husband makes dinner. HOMICIDE AND LUNACY FOREVER!!!
I had a dream I was at a gathering with cool people, and Robert was there, and I got to tell him how much I love this series. Cody Johnston was there, too. It was a good time.
13:00 mark or so, having been through it, Robert is entirely right. There is also a huge aspect of ethics instruction, from what are you joining, history of the force, and working as a team. A huge part of the screaming is not to "harden you" it to break your ego so that you can be taught to work well with others. Trust falls, buddy carries, "swim buddies". I highly doubt these manly bootcamp things have such things.
20:54 I'm a garbage man. I like my job. In a union. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I have my own place. Can afford the little things. I always wanna ask dudes like this if I'm less of a man for the things I do and the person I am.
You’d hope these people would quickly see your value if you and all your co-workers decided to stop working for a week. I lived in a city that had garbage strikes for a couple of weeks and it got gross REAL fast. Thank you for doing a job many won’t do.
Dude, your work is invaluable, there is no way you're less of a man, more specifically because you're one and nothing makes you less of a man other than being tr a ns, and because the world is much better because of the work you do.
Therapy is cheaper than those courses. Actually, spending money on those courses instead of therapy is just making you eventually need more therapy. So, cut out the middle man and just go to therapy.
Short being viewed as less is toxic masculinity. Its not inevitable. I feel like we pretend like that isn't acknowledged because its women doing the toxicity. Toxic ideals are learned and can be unlearned. Just like being overweight or general ideas of toxic standards of femininity
Any chance we could get a list of sources in the description of an episode? I typically listen while doing other activities, but this topic among others is one I'd like to read about later
Things have generally got briefly a bit better for most people at around age 16, just because their peer group is no longer 14 and 15, which are some of the absolute worst ages a human being can be. Just the most insecure, cruel, hormone-addled, status-obsessed and stinky years of the first half of a human life. 80% of everybody is their very worst self at age 14. At least until they hit their 40's or 50's and start losing their natural immunity to conservatism, and the possibilities begin to get exponentially worse.
I do largely agree, but the danger now is that so many 18-22 year olds who are exposed to this stuff are coming out of school and into the real world, where it's largely not great economically, and are constantly told by these grifters: "It's easy to succeed, and if you don't then it's [insert minority here]'s fault that you can't" and unfortunately for a certain set of people they just buy in because that's more comforting than realizing that everyone is struggling right now. Especially if they they're aggressively online, once they get sucked into a regressive online space that tells them that they *deserve* success based on their sex/race, it's much harder to get them out unless they have social connections outside it.
@@milii113 I don't ever disagree that kids ought not to be exposed to misogynistic, racist and cruel bullshit intended to rob them of their money and their dignity. I hate those grifters as much as anyone. My only point was that there's a general tendency for teens to get less hateful around 16, regardless of the cultural environment.
Part of the reason BUDS has Hell Week and all the hazing shit at the beginning is because the Navy casts such a wide net for SEAL recruits and most applicants lack combat experience or even combat training beyond basic weapons qualification. It’s just there to separate all the chaff they inevitably get. All the other special operations training pipelines have less of it. It’s not even really training these camps imitate, just a sort of systematic hazing.
And if you want exercize, just help out at a smaller fatm, there is a lot stuff to do at times, cheaper too probably , ok violence, get them into some mma training? Any similar, em mua thai, any more full combat martial art? Here, you have healthy violence but way healthier. I know its not about violence. But if you want to, violence tough. Ore hell go to a shooting range regulary?
my favorite thing about the thumbnail picture is the guy in the backround on the left checking his phone. i like to think hes playing candy crush or sending cute animal pics to him mom
Gender affirming care for rich men is really weird.
It's weird but like... I think this is actually conversion therapy? Like it's conversion therapy for cis men who don't feel like they're doing a good enough job being cis men.
@@theautisticguitarist7560 I kind of see what you are saying, but I don't think many people voluntarily go through conversion therapy. Usually they're forced by their family.
gender affirming care should be available for everyone, trans or cis, but y'know, with actual professional oversight maybe, not just dudes-of-means trying to be ubermensch
@@theautisticguitarist7560 What an absurd way to live. As a cis man everything I do is cis and manly, because I am a cis man.
@@theautisticguitarist7560I actually really appreciate that comparison.
Never been to conversion therapy, I came out after the age I could have been sent, but it does strike me as a pretty spot on comparison based on what I know
My grandma is from coal country in WV and had to wear pants to do a paper route by bike in the 1930s. She said men, women, and kids would throw rocks at her sometimes in the larger town next to her own. My great-grandpa had to follow her with a shotgun in his big ass farm truck to let folks know his little girl wasn't going to "mangle herself in a skirt." No rock issues after that.
Grandpa was a badass.
Wow. Great dad.
For anyone with masculinity issues, take notes from great-grandpa over here.
I know it's not the point, but.. why didn't she ride in the truck if it was there anyway?
But to contribute something of more value - When trousers were 'invented' - or at least adopted in Europe, they were a woman's garment. Historically it's been the norm for men to wear something akin to a 'skirt'. Jesus got around in a dress - I've seen the pictures. And if anything - it makes more sense that way around. Trousers are more restrictive in places that women don't have.
@@frankcooke1692"I've seen the pictures" gave me a very enjoyable unexpected laugh. Thank you
Your friend who said boot camp is all a game is sooo very correct!!!
I had a drill sergeant throw a laundry bag over my head and try to suffocate me with it. I just stood there the whole time. After a few seconds when he realized i was not going to fight back, he stopped, removed the bag from my head, and asked why i didn't freak out. I told him that he doesn't want to kill me, that would mean way more paper work than he would want to deal with.
He then told me to drop and do push ups but he never tried to fuck with me again like that.
Haha, same experience in the FDF so men are the same all over the world :D
I came to the similar conclusion that it was it was all a trust test, both inside and outside.
Military laundry bags are made of mesh... literally impossible to suffocate from one.
@@monsterram6617 now they maybe. 20 years ago they were cloth. It might have been one of those old water proof bags that were made of rubber and vinyl.
@@sparkax Since at least the 90s it's been like that. A WP bag is another story.
some people's kink is "expensive closeted doms"
Their kink is having money at all costs, but they didn't have the connections to become drug dealers or the intellect to become pharmacists or gumption to become creationists.
It's a given at mainstream spaces people are going to turn to kink on understanding trans issues. But they literally don't want to become something they don't think they are. When they do it, it's a wedge issue. When Fascists do the same thing, then half of Europe dies.
They wouldn't scum tourism at our middle class/working class munches if someone paid them. I'm all for doms making that dollar dollar but don't shame me for wearing affordable leather/latex to my own fucking event bro.
@@petehjr1 Jesus Christ, scam bot. You make me embarrassed that I left a comment here and don't even know what it is because it got deleted. 🤣
Those clips are like if everyone in military boot camp was bored and sad, including the drill instructor.
I remember how miserable the cadets seemed at Norwich when I shadowed there.
Extremely gay, yet not at all…
At least they’re all guys that deserve to be bored and sad.
@@Kurahaara86 Everyone knows it's not gay if you're wearing boot bands
I think it's the same but different. Maybe because military recruits in basic are typically younger.
It's wild that people dislike being short. I love it. I'm short, 5'6 - 5'5 1/2 maybe. I'm a smaller target. I am compact and will statistically live longer and retain more mobility as I age. I'm not uncomfortable on Spirit flights.
I was a bouncer and nobody wanted to fight me because they were either the kinda person who didn't see me as a threat, or they were the kinda person who didn't want to lose a fight to a manlet. That's both types of bar guys right there. Easy job.
The only bad thing about being short is that you'll constantly get your pants pockets caught on the knobs and handles of cabinets and drawers. That's it. I haven't noticed much of an effect on my love life. I've had one partner that wasn't taller than me. Then again, I also don't care enough to notice if it has had an effect.
Everybody should be short. One of the most effective propaganda campaigns in human history is the idea that being short is somehow abnormal. No. The world belongs to the short people. Always has, always will.
Exactly! Being smaller is the more efficient and biologically smart choice, and you can actually physically fit in way more situations
Also, most of the world is shorter than the US, but average height for men in my country is 5"6 and for women is 5"2, I'm the exactly average and I don't have many problems, other than pants and things in tall places.
I mean to be honest, I expect that a lot of the hatred of being short comes from being bullied or made fun of people for being short. As someone 5'3'' who had a cousin who was 6'11'' and talked extensively about how crappy being overly tall was, he and I talked being bullied for our respective opposite heights over and figured out that (anecdotally) it seems like it's often medium height people lashing out at both short and tall people and making both ends of the spectrum wrongly mad at each other. But when people treat you cruelly in childhood, that can be hard to shake off, so people end up internalising it as a personal flaw. Or at least that's my read on it.
The only downside to being short is the availability of properly fitting pants. I'm a woman at least, so petite clothing theoretically exists for me, I image its harder for men without delving into the boy's section. We must expand pant size selection...or learn to do minor alterations, I guess...
If you were about four inches shorter like my Dad, you might mind more.
Some of the stories he tells are absolutely harrowing--mostly for the guys who were dumb enough to hit on his wife, my mom, in front of him.
He literally tore off a guy's face with a busted bottle once. Had to burn his favorite pair of white jeans.
God the early 90s were wild.
Point of clarification: 8chan predates Gamergate. It was created sometime before when 4chan banned child pornography. 8chan was made specifically as place where chuds could look at kiddie porn. Gamergate certainly did boost their profile, though.
the fun thing is as much as 4chan become this online boogeyman it had *lot* of offshoots during its history because its management team found some aspects of its userbase too much. 8chan is far from the first.
Yeah 8ch already existed, but it became something people knew about once all the gamergate guys were forced to flock over there.
@@himbosuplex And then its owner basically created QAnon all by himself
ironically the 8chan owner bought the original 2ch, causing that 2ch owner to buy 4chan
There's a really good writeup on Bibanon that covers the entire history of 4chan that I highly highly recommend reading. Just search for "Bibanon 4chan history" and you'll find it.
You could have just joined the military, had less of an abusive bootcamp , and get a paycheck from the Department of Defense, rather than pay someone 12K to torture you.
All very good points and no, thank you.
@@howwitty i don't think they're saying its a good option just a less bad one for a couple pretty valid and unfortunate reasons
They don’t have the gumption to do the real thing, so they larp
It’s probably a good thing they don’t join up.
Except for their latent femdom, er, wait, 💥♂️🚹him-dom💥🚹♂️ kink
Hell, you could pay me $12,000 dollars and I'd spend the week baking you cookies, watching movies with you and listening to your takes on them, and tucking you in at night and reading you bedtime stories about atomic knights fighting space vampires. You can even carry around a big hammer the whole time and I'll say how cool it is.
What book is that? I'm sold
56:14 the idea that women only go after a top percentage of identical features is one of the biggest lies of this whole ethos
Women are not a monolith
Look at shipping culture and fanfic culture
There are plenty of women whose ideal man is so radically different from anything that would be considered the top percent.
This is always my comment, I always say we are not a hive mind, specially because what I find attractive is the exact opposite of what they think women like.
My wife is really obsessed with Nier Automata right now, and one thing she has noticed is that a lot of the fan art is just 2B holding 9S like a baby, or coddling him.
This is something I notice with a lot of other fandoms, that women often pine over what was described as "soft bois" in a lecture I once heard at the PAMLA Conference last year in Portland (I don't remember the academics names). Specifically they were talking about women's attraction to Howl from Howl's moving castle.
It seems like women ogle over soft bois as much as they do with burley buff men, yet culturally women are often told that they should pursue the latter.
@@SleepyMatt-zzz The funny thing is, being a lurker in some of these spaces begrudgingly, there's a large swath of guys caught up in the masculinity scare who joke and genuinely pine about "If women only loved the small/nerdy/shy guys" when in reality if they took 5 steps outside their bubble and into the real world they'd find this is a massive market! Like the whole meme about the "Tumblr sexyman" when that site was alive existed for a reason.
Unfortunately I feel like it's battered down by
1) The grifters they listen to and the culture of the space reinforce the idea that any girl who *does* express an interest in them is either lying, manipulative, or self-deluded and instead write them all off and try and pursue an unobtainable and most likely unfulfilling ideal or
2) They have legitimate dysphoria (imposed or not) and don't feel comfortable with themselves and attempt to justify their feelings by saying it's what women want
At least in the first case if these guys took some time to branch out and exist among normal women, so many of them would become deradicalized. Unfortunately the culture is self-reinforcing to a degree that it's almost cultish in aspects.
I see dudes who are total slobs walking around with dime pieces at Target all the time. This is true.
I wonder what the research is. Toxic standards ot manhood has been the social software for what society at large has considered desirable in a man.
In my experience most men and women bias men as being higher quality being protector providers objects of success and power. (Wealthy/tall/physically strong)
Its all offshoots of patriarchal norms that men and women have been socialized into. Just because there are exceptions bc people are messy, doesnt mean its not the norm. Probability > possibility
the chemo analogy is great cause sure it cured my cancer but damn did it fuck me up permanently in fun and unique ways i learn about every few months
My mom is a survivor too, that stuff is crazy...
Same. Surviving cancer is more about surviving chemo than it is the cancer itself.
12K to get screamed at. Damn, I spent 1/4th of that for a luxury vacation to Mexico! 😂
(Channeling Gunny Hartman from Full Metal Jacket) You been cheated!
Whoever came up with Manfluencer missed the opportunity for "Himfluencer" x'D
But Himfluencer implice its himbo stuff thats probably actually wholesome.
Or influMancer
@@xXRickTrolledXx That sounds like some wizard shit
@@cuirass-rook Some people just call them bards ;)
Himlerites.
Capitalism and sexual insecurity, give me a more dangerous mix.
That PART
Ammonia and bleach?
Speed coke and heroin
Social media and anything.
Sexual insecurity doesn't pair well with anything.
The boot camp videos reminded me of a story from my time at college. My dorm of skinny computer nerds had an intramural volleyball team. It was just a fun little thing and we didn't really take it too seriously but we had some good moves. One of the frats had a team that took themselves and the game far too seriously. Lots of chest bumps and butt slaps and most noticeable, every time they lost a point some or all of them would drop and do pushups. I had two gifts in volleyball- I was 6'3" and could block almost any spike, and an underhand serve that looked like middle school gym, but was really a drop shot I could sail then sink like it hit an invisible wall. It gave me great joy to score 5 points in a row and watch the frat jocks get distinctly slower at their pushups as we went on.
People underestimate nerds. My dad was a pocket protector comic book nerd/geek back in the 70s. Meanwhile he was also alphadudebroing it up since the 70s. He was 6"2" and lanky but all muscle. And because he had long limbs, his arms had WAY more muscle on them than it appeared. (Side note: this is something that makes a lot of women actually prefer shorter dudes. The same amount of muscle looks a LOT bulkier kn short men simply because their limbs are shorter.) My brother is the biggest nerd ever and he terrifies a lot grown men of many sizes (I knowbthese arrived toxic examples bit unfortunately that's what happens when you have multiple millenia of generational trauma and you both intentionally breed for mental health issues to make "better soldiers" and refuse to get your children said needed mental help.)
This is literally just degradation BDSM without the aftercare.
I would say it lacks the happy ending too but honestly I wouldn't doubt if it's happened incidentally...
Advantages of a dom over whatever this is: costs less, respects safety and boundaries, after care, you get to orgasm.
BDSM has aftercare?
@@sullyb23511 Its the most important part.
Ewww.....
Someone needs to tell these guys there are COOL dudes out there who will have loving, gentle homosexual relationships with them, getting screamed at in the ocean by a roided up bear daddy isn't the only way they can make love
Confident short men have nothing on a confident dude in a wheelchair. I had a buddy who had one growth plate on a leg never develop, so he was in a wheelchair 90% of the time. The amount of women I saw that man pick up by just confidently rolling his ass onto a dance floor and asking the most attractive woman to do a “spinneroo and a wheelie, cuz he can’t dance” is incredible.
It’s funny to me, as a girl now woman, that throughout history (white history/men) men’s degree of comfort in society was directly linked to the “health” of the myth of women’s weakness. I was an only child, adopted, with a malignant narcissist as a mother that was anything but weak. There were no girls in my neighborhood so I grew up playing with all the boys. Never occurred to me there was a difference. I would fight with them, bloody noses everything, and remember the horror when turning 13 one of them expressed an interest that wasn’t running through the woods pretend shooting at each other. My communication style reflects my childhood development. To the point, less is more. Emotions are uncomfortable. Small talk a torture.
Finishing school and entering the workplace and having my ideas dismissed, the sharassment, talked down to, patronized, I never was able to respond in ways that reinforced the dynamics. I fought back. I had to learn. Be taught from my fellow female workers and friends I was making how to disguise intelligence and how to “make it seem like they came up with the idea” in order to get anything possibly adopted. I was heartbroken. Not only did I need to learn I wasn’t viewed as equal, but I was starting to also view men as unequal. Weak. Unable to compete without an acceptance of women that they deserved the positions in upper management and c level based on nothing more than gender.
It’s sad to me that so much attention has been spent throughout history on the anxiety, mental health, taking the temperature, and horrifically toxic behaviors accepted or excused of men (white, mostly), without the other side of that coin getting the same examination. The acceptance of that dynamic and structure by women and all we had to go through, give up, endure in order for them to be able to pay 12k to be screamed at (hell, we’d do it for free…trust me).
You don't have to be a woman for your boss and parents to be toxic in those ways. And, considering that this comments section has multiple people remarking on how few men go to therapy, I am unsure how that industry stays afloat if men are the only ones whose mental health society cares about.
I think the most ardent non-white feminist and the most intense white conservative would both find fault in what you said.
Ma'am, I'm afraid you're suffering from the Hysteria. I'm not a doctor but I am authorized to prescribe mandated lombotomy.
@iivin4233 I don't think that was their point. Women are talked down to in a way men simply aren't, at least not nearly as often. The point wasn't that men are never the victims of toxic masculinity. The only real fault I'd take from the OP is that they singled out White men doing this. It is true for any race of men and women.
@@justcommenting4981 You had me with “I’m not a doctor”🤣 yeah, I’d stick with that.
@@iivin4233 You are correct. You don’t have to be a woman. However, considering child bearing women have been reduced to incubators or, if something goes wrong, coffins in many states, basically becoming property of the state as soon as they conceive, it seems pretty skewed and dire.
I know that it isn’t all Mai Tai’s and Yahtzee for men either. They experience domestic abuse but aren’t believed and shamed, don’t seek professional help because of stigma and struggle with their roles as well. None of it is easy. It’s harder to have an openness to reaching out right now because of the very large and loud group that is yearning for going back to the late 1700’s when, as Mike Johnson said, was the last time we were “moral”. I’m sure he knows people were owned and the majority had no voice in this country. The “good old days”.
The fear of seed oils is the unhealthiest perspective these guys could take, specifically grape seed oil, because grape seed oil is one of the few oils that doesn't start hydrogenating till above the cooked temperature of most meats, so grape seed is one of the most healthy oils to cook with. Not to mention Omega fatty acids which many people take flax oil to get. Do they consider olive oil seed oil? Wasn't it a super manly thing at one point to drink olive oil? What the hell?
Love the comparison to cargo cults by the way. Such a perfect analogy. From now on I think I will be calling the manosphere "Cargo cult manhood". It just fits. Thank you for giving me that.
Incels are an internet based cargo cult built around their collective non-understanding of their rejection by women
This form of masculinity is a performative and competitive method of identity construction - it *has* to change, otherwise the competition becomes stagnant, and the sales pitch loses its edge. If olive oil was the perfect manly thing everyone has to take last week, this week it has to be the most effeminate thing you could imagine, and [insert thing] is today's consumable masculinity token.
BrainForce is just Goop for guys.
You don't get olive oil from the seed but the fruit, same with avocado oil.
I think the fear of seed oils stems not from phytoestrogens (to begin with) but because of the preservation methods. They cover the smell of rancid oil during processing with chemicals that may be really bad for health in the long run.
Manosphere dudes are afraid of everything with estrogen, even printed receipts!
the lengths men go to avoid going to therapy is profound.
it is truly wild. Therapy isn't even that bad, idk what they're so scared of.
I mean I _do,_ but you know what I mean lol
@SpaghetteMan What are you talking about? I just got back from a denture fitting with my podiatrist, and I feel great.
Why do I taste feet?
Assuming those men even deserve therapy.
Nah, I'd rather be stressed and angry, therapy is for weak beta males smh. Be a man, avoid accountability, duh 😅😅😅😂😂
@@SpaghetteMan That gap is access and culture, it's expensive and people grow up in a culture that tells them they are less manly when they have feelings other than anger and that it is weakness to want and ask for support, there are many different types of therapy and one probably could fit these people needs.
I sincerely appreciate Robert discussing the ACTUAL major issue for modern American masculinity. Loneliness, isolation and the lack of community, the lack of support and the inability to be emotional or vulnerable. Toxic masculinity hurts men just as much as women, if not more. Making friends as an adult man in America is very hard.
Isn't that just the problem for American society as a whole? late stage capitalism made socialising harder than it already was.
You're very right, but as a guy born and raised in the Nordics I'd just add that this isn't so much an issue of america or any spesific country, it's a pretty much global issue now because the late stage capitalism that's brought many of these issuesn about affects us all. This is not to say there aren't differences in like how bad the situation is because the societal structures do play a role. It's much easier in Europe (for the most part) to live and socialize without owning a car, access to health care is better etc, so there are differences, but the root problems are still the same for men everywhere, or ar least everywhere in the so called "western world".
Stay in touch with your friends guys, and ask them how the fuck they're doing.
I feel so bad for guys when I see what social isolation does to them. A world where men aren't so lonely is a better world for women too
BOTH of the actual issues, in fact: Loneliness, and also the fear of Javier Bardem's bowl cut. Speaking as a man, those are my main two problems.
Yeah and once they're in the toxic masculinity trap, no one wants to be around them due to their conduct and views. It's very difficult to escape at that point.
the thing about male loneliness is also like. its not just men. we are just in an epidemic of general loneliness. but thats not part of the GRIFT
Pretty much, and it's probably not that hard to fix, just let people have more free time and build community spaces again,also,maybe walkable cities.
I imagine needing to get in a car to do anything can be very limiting.
Also, there is even a women's version of these camps, some specific types of spiritual retreats, also, church, my mom goes to church specifically because she made friends there.
Always say this. If you are not perceived as a possible threat, it's harder not to be lonely. Compare a female friend and a male friends tinder. Consider the gaslight of women do not like toxic masculinity and see men who are not toxic get passed over (not me, I am a mess...I am talking about friends with good jobs, kind and just not macho). Not women's fault but structural issue. Women have so many worse problems worse than men (harassment, sa etc). Loneliness isn't one of them. Doesn't mean these idiots aren't toxic they are a symptom.
Another perspective, look at the experience of transmen. Male friendships are not as emotionally supportive. It's not nice to be perceived as invisible or a threat. I am not quoting some fascist here. I am quoting contrapoints.. queen of the youtube left who as a transwoman has seen both sides.
All this Bastard Money bringing up the production value!!!! Another Mega Masculine Podcast 🏋🏾♂️ now I’ve gotta go yell at my kids on the beach so they can be CEO’s later 👍
38:00 Yes! Bicycle panic! Bifurcated garments! Hat pins to stab creeps! Won't someone think of the men!
Also if riding a bike caused me to be sterile, I'd save a lot of money (and momentary horrible pain) on getting my IUD inserted every three years.
Gamergate utterly shattered me as a person. Didn't realize it's still doing so in every other part of our lives, thanks for the insight BtB crew, honestly this episode gave me so much understanding of all of our problems for all of our history. Appreciate it very much.
Correction: The first target of GamerGate is nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns (though they weren't out at the time)
I was going to say the same thing. It doesn’t make it any less of a masculinity driven harassment campaign, but the least we can do for them is to correctly refer to them
I'm glad people are starting to talk about this. I'm so sick of being told what being a man means from businesses, losers, and idiots.
I went through basic training in 1979 and my recruiter told me that it was a game, so yeah, I played the game and it wasn't that bad. The drilling, marching and training were actually kind of fun and though you have to get lots of shots and other medical poking and prodding along the way, those folks were nicer than the drill instructors. So, getting up at 5 am, folding clothes into six inch squares, barracks GI parties and learning to make tight hospital corners was something I could do for six weeks of my life. The PT was a bore though because it rained most of the time and we did a bit of calisthenics and a lot of running in place under an overhang. The upside to the rain was that we learned a bunch of cool close drilling moves.
@sheryliversen8869 My dad kind of explained it like that too. He hated the system and thought the authoritarianism was ridiculous, but he had fun with the running and the shooting and the camping because he liked that stuff already. He was also one of those guys who came out of the military like "don't", though, and he was just stationed in Berlin.
He told me he made it through by playing the game as a way to survive his term there and said he bugged his COs because he was reasonably good at all the army stuff they needed him do to (and even came second in a some...gun...contest thing. He said he was good at sniping) but didn't want to do it because he didn't give a crap about the military and didn't want to be there.
Obviously doing it for the draft is a different experience than signing up voluntarily, and I guess that's partially why some of our parents are so fucked up.
Fun facts: my dad worked security for the "Ich bin eine Berliner" speech and told me he was able to make lots of friends in Berlin by getting quietly drunk instead if noisily drunk like his peers.
@siobhanroberts2329 thank you for sharing your dad's story, but i'm dying laughing at calling an army marksmanship program's sharpshooter competition "some gun contest thing" when most of those competitors will pin their awards as some of their highest value ribbons on their dress uniforms.
Hope your dad at least got to enjoy being deployed in Berlin, and wasnt persuaded by the inherently authoritarian nature of the military
@callsignapollo_ Laugh away! Finding out how important this is to regular people is really funny for me too, because it underscores how little my dad gave a crap about the entire thing, and never calling it anything other than a "sniping contest I came second in" is so him.
Imagine Martin Short but probably autistic and really good at guns for some reason. He would rather have been singing pirates of penzance or reading.
That's why I know nothing about the actual military. He never really talks about it other than to tell me the same few funny stories and to talk about how the boot camp system is designed to break you down and rebuild you into a killing machine in a way that fundamentally destroys your soul and ability to be gentle and nurturing.
So he didn't give in to the authoritarian nature of the army, lol. He came out more anti-authoritarian than he already was. He corrects people who say "draft dodger" by saying "draft resister".
Anyway thanks for letting me talk about my dad some more. He's way cooler than I'll probably ever be.
@callsignapollo_ I thought I replied to you but a random like brought me back here and apparently I didn't.
My lack of knowledge about this award underscores how little of a crap my dad gave about his time in the army and just makes it funnier.
He never talked about it other than that he was "rather good" at shooting and had won a second place sniping award. He never showed off any military paraphernalia and as far as I know/he told me he got rid of it because he didn't want to remember that time in his life. I've seen the journal he kept to help him get over it though.
He definitely ended up the opposite of authoritarian. He got arrested multiple times for protesting Vietnam, was in Canadian Greenpeace in the 80s, and didn't even allow his kids (me lol) to have nerf guns because he was so anti gun.
He honestly has some Forrest Gump-ass stories. He was security for the ich eine berliner speech.
@@siobhanroberts2329 If you replied in the dropdown from the notifications, I guess it doesn't always work (it never works for me) but if you click on the thumbnail of the video, it takes you to the comments of the video with the relevant one at the top.
Air Force basic training was probably the least insane. I did mine in 1990. When my older cousin was deciding whether to join, he was very anxious about basic training. This was very funny to me because I was the computer hobbyist, indoor kid, not into sports and such and he was reasonably athletic, super into baseball, probably exercised voluntarily and on purpose. "Basic Training is the worst few weeks of your life but unlike anything else that's the worst few weeks of your life, there are no real consequences after you pass - which you will. Your failures don't follow you, your successes make every day a little easier, and it's more like a bad camping trip - you won't be traumatized by it but you'll get a few stories you'll tell for years. It's a consequence-free bad time."
Imagine paying 12 grand for that when you could just join the marines and get paid to receive the same treatment LMAO
Robert is all the Manfluencer we need
The Reverend-Doctor-Fluencer we need
Thanks for talking about this, it's an important issue. It breaks my heart to see young men (or even not-so-young men) get duped by these con artists.
Don’t feel bad for them, if they’re shitty enough men to fall for this, they’re not worth your pity.
47:53 is called Astronomia by Tony Igy, but most commonly associated with "Coffin Dance" which is a meme to denote someone's in deep trouble
You guys should link your guests plugs in the description. It would likely make more follow through to their shows.
It should be noted that “the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb” is a real saying. It’s ironically the full version of “blood is thicker than water,” which implies the opposite of the full saying.
My racist grandfather had an acquaintance who owned the convenience store in his very small hometown--the man was a first generation Pakistani-American Sunni Muslim who had a wife and two children living in the country with him. Although my grandfather spoke highly of him and was generally happy to hear his perspective on matters of religion, he refused to allow myself or my sister to become close with his children, always insisting that "blood is thicker than water," to suggest that he could never be trusted to truly be "American" in the way my grandfather saw himself and his family.
It's a weird bit of irony in that, even though he very much used the saying in the wrong, truncated way (it was even something I corrected him about at the time), the full saying would apply regardless as he was of a different faith than my grandfather.
Both sayings are as real as the other and they are refutations of each other - meme and counter-meme. It doesn't even really matter which came first as both are by now older than any living person so the only thing that matters is which you think is the truer for you and standing by it.
Ps.: If you want to look for it then you can find written evidence that "blood is thicker than water" is older. And from a meme standpoint the shorter one is pithier and easier to remember so it's more infectious. But that's written records and they appear near each other so either one could have been in use in speech.
@@LddStyx The "blood of the covenant" version is quite new. Go looking for a source and you won't find anything older than maybe 30 years. Arguably, the new meaning may have been applied to the original saying at times, but the idea that it's the original saying is bullshit someone made up on the internet.
The reason for it is good, because the idea that family ties are more important than any other is used to excuse a lot of abuse and toxicity. But aphorisms don't hold any special wisdom. We don't need a new aphorism to say that people should choose who they hold closest.
It was originally "blood of battle" as it was used by soldiers to express the trauma bonds they formed while serving in active combat was often stronger than the ones formed by birth. A lot of family often couldnt relate when they came back home and joking the miltary was often an escape for kids that come from poor amd broken homes to escape that life for a better one. Meaning it used to be common for soldiers to come from bad, broken homes with poor familial ties to begin with. @@crossroadswanderer
I think what made it seem so awkward and weird is the odd cadence and shting tone of the guy speaking. Like he sounded so unconfident about using it while trying to project confidence. Like he didn't really believe it or something. (Or that's how it came across to me.)
I mean my partner probably could parallel park a big rig but he won me over by 1) being like properly interested in my opinions even if he disagrees and 2) making me LAUGH. Like full on belly laugh. Repeatedly.
To add to one of the later points about the gamification of terrorism, not long after the Christchurch shooting video was released/leaked, there was a version with Doom sounds and effects created. No idea where you would find either of these anymore, not that anyone really should be looking.
I remember this, I think there was a news report about it a few yrs ago
I just searched it up, some guy just posted a vid of himself playing it like 3months ago and he has a fucking confederate flag pfp, it’s so fucking over.
I believe Robert was one of the people who covered it at the time, I remember following his coverage.
I still have a conditioned response to just burst out laughing at the mention of Davis Aurini’s name. Even after all these years.
I pretended to take a sip of my drink
Fully expected one of those dudes to use the "I survived because the fire inside me burned brighter than the fire around me" line from Fallout: New Vegas.
The Burned Man lives
I wonder how much of this is kink that people are unwilling to actually engage with in a healthy manner. Like, I've spent less money on BDSM gear and video games combined in my entire life than these guys are paying for this shit, and I could probably get functionally the same thing from both of those activities. I know Robert joked that these guys could pay a domme to do the same thing for cheaper, but honestly I think he might be closer on that than we care to admit. The only difference between a domme and masculinity shit is that the domme is safer and also significantly less socially acceptable.
Is there a healthy way to engage with that kink, or various other kinks? If so many other behaviors can be the expression of past mistreatment or some other problem, might some kinks not also be expressions of past mistreatment or some other problem?
@@iivin4233 That's second part is for someone who knows more about psychology than I do to answer, but to my knowledge the general consensus is that most kinks are a natural variation in human sexuality and they are not necessarily maladaptive. Something is only really a disorder to be fixed if it's in some way maladaptive. There are definitely ways to engage in kink in a healthy manner, and people have been doing it for decades.
@@LethargicScientist As someone who engages in that kind of stuff: there are healthy ways to do it, but it requires thousands of times more introspection than these guys are likely capable of. There are many ways that kink manifests as a reflection of unresolved trauma and in those cases it's most likely *not* a good idea to try and heal through play and should instead be redirected towards therapy, but like you mentioned kink often times doesn't really come from anywhere specific. Sometimes guys just want to get stepped on and that's okay!
However the funny (not actually funny) part as it relates to this is, as any kink positive space will likely emphasize, there always should be a clear line between what is "play" and what is real life which is built heavily on CONSENT, a thing that is also unfortunately very muddled in the minds of a lot of these ubermasc guys. Unfortunately for subs it's very easy to get taken advantage of if uninformed or confused about their own feelings (as is probably likely for a non-zero percent of them), and this is where the danger lies most.
@@milii113 I should note, if my original comment didn't make it clear, I engage with kink myself and understand most of that whole side of the equation. My lack of understanding largely relates entirely to the part about unresolved trauma.
@@LethargicScientist Ahh yeah I assumed a bit too much there my bad! I just often see a lot of confusion and ignorance when it comes to kink and people assuming that it's born out of some defect when that's something I feel is more an exception rather than the rule, so I jumped a bit too fast to that conclusion. I was more so attempting to piggyback off your response and provide more info to the person above, sorry for the confusion p.p
But while I can't claim to be an expert on the psychological background surrounding it, at least from what I've seen research points to the fact that some people's preferences are linked to past trauma, but that doesn't mean it necessarily has to. I don't think it's far fetched to say that if trauma can manifest in personality issues like obsessive need for control or self-destructive tendencies, then it can certainly cause people to be into kink on one side or the other.
There seems to be some research showing that doing BDSM and the like can in some cases help deal with traumatic experiences as they're manifested like that, though obviously not solely that and not without significant efforts to understand and separate fantasy from reality (however I'm not 100% convinced to that and it's certainly something that needs to be researched much more rigorously).
Glad "thick thumbs" got Sophie laughing. Its often hard to find the humor when the topics are so visibly making her uncomfortable. Frankly after so many episodes I am kind of surprised that she hasn't become desensitized. The look on her face often speaks to the truly horrific nature of the story that Robert or Garrison is telling. Good for her! I guess... For not just embracing cynicism in the same way. I guess the show kind of needs that dynamic to keep the viewer grounded in the truly horrific nature of the things Robert is sarcastically playing devils advocate for. In combination I suppose it really effectively highlights the absurdity of the perspectives better than just the sarcasm alone, but still sometimes it does make it harder as a viewer to laugh cynically while watching genuine horror rise in someones eyes. Not that that's a bad thing to be reminded what a healthy reaction would be from someone who isn't just anticipating the very worst out of humanity at all turns. Which is the primary expectation when watching this show.
BTW Thank you for filling the niche of a well produced prolific show that covers individuals involved in corporate/political/military corruption, crime and atrocities from a left leaning perspective. The former channel I had found to fill that niche had a more specifically corporate corruption bent with less comedy, and ended up imploding under the weight of the hosts own hypocrisy when it was revealed that she herself was an abusive manipulative boss (and a plagiarist, but honestly I think the viewers would have forgiven that over the blatant narcissistic hypocrisy).
Hypocrisy being something I believe this show is quite immune to due to the number of supposedly sarcastic comments where Robert espouses his personal goals to become a cult leader or dictator, depending on the focus of the episode, and or playing devils advocate for all sorts of terrible things, I think we would be less shocked is all, because he's already warmed us up to the idea. I think the only thing he actually could do to lose the viewers is to be revealed to be a major real world donor to Trumps campaign, or a member of an anti-abortion donor pact, or basically anything that is a legitimately bad political action that doesn't serve his own rise to power. His comments have otherwise prepared us for any personal act of megalomaniacle self service in which he might engage. It's not that hypocrisy is impossible, but it would have to be a non-self serving action, because he has already thoroughly "sarcastically" established his aims for power.
"You have to be a strong man by going to work for 12 hours a day and coming home and not talking to your kids, but also your wife is going to ruin your kids by being home with them all day, which she has to do because she's a woman" Yeah no contradictions here at all, no wonder it worked out so great! It's almost....almost like if those gender roles didn't exist, and there were a way for people to just fulfill whatever role works best for them, things would be....better.
Don't forget that when they DO talk to their kids is usually only because they misbehaved and need punished and that's often the only form of interaction the kids have with their dad...Then the dad wonders why when divorces and separations happen the kids greatly prefer being with mom over him.
I think men need role models who aren't bullies. I see guys who like Andrew Tate and are like "he really helped me with my confidence," and I feel really sorry for them. They deserve better.
And the thing is, they really aren't any more self confident. They just learned how to pretend to be. The fact that so many are so bitter and easily turned to aggression shows. They're still just as fearful and still feel just as inferior, grifters just taught them how to disguise it as a superiority complex.
Which is pretty common for hose that have an inferiority complex. They often overcompense by putting on airs and pretending to be over confident and superior. You cam tell the difference based on how easily damaged it is. If they have a true superiority complex or true self confidence, they aren't easily bruised and don't turn to agression so easily.
Also, it doesn't help when there are positive role models for men, a lot of times men will shut them down. Or they intentionally misunderstand them.
hearing the opinion men had on what effect the bicycle would have on women reminds me of the meme where someone mentions would were advised against riding trains in fear the uterus would come out of the body (or something like that) and that they have so much respect for women in the past not just going on a violent rampage against men (I'm probably paraphrasing). I don't know if that belief about trains and the woman uterus was truly said at the time, but hearing about how the bicycle was thought to change women's organs, makes me believe its possible they actually said that about trains too. And again, like the op of the meme, i have so much respect for women of the past and their ability to not go on violent rampages against men.
never thought about it that way but you're totally right. If I was born a woman at almost any point in human history I would have almost definitely ended up going absolutely bananas on some dude 😂
We need to cut them some medical slack. They barely had medicine at that point and the train was something that had never existing before, moving at speeds only possible for the fastest animals for many dozens of miles.
The foolishness comes in for us who know better.
@@iivin4233 no. we do not.
it had nothing to do with lack of medical knowledge.
They also thought women running would dislodge their uterus which is why Women's Marathon wasn't in the Olympics until 1984!!! Men don't learn shit. Just ask one about tampons.
@@iivin4233People said it was ridiculous at the time though, it wasn’t just simply common sense or something. This idea that we can’t criticise ideas people had in the past cus they didn’t know better is so chicken shit. I get that we should give context but what you’re doing is just coping for them lol.
Actually talking to women still free, last I checked.
It doesn't feel free most of the time lol. And I wouldn't want guys to attempt solving their problems by talking to women. They quite understandably don't want to hear about those problems.
What do you have against women to suggest such trash ass men to go talk to them?
@@iivin4233 I actually find that most women are actually very sympathetic to problems men face. What gets tiresome for a lot of women is that men will identify problems in their lives but not do anything productive to resolve those problems. That's kind of why there is this ongoing trend of men's girlfriends having to act like their therapists.
At least in my experience it's rooted in
1) Guys not believing that you can have vulnerable conversations with friends and reserve that only for a significant other, leading them to also desperately depend on finding/being in a relationship and
2) Even once they do either become obsessively dependent on this one person as their sole emotional support or continue to be closed off because "They can't show weakness" or some bs like that
Both are systemic issues caused largely by the concept of "Masculinity", and as someone who's been on the receiving end of both sides of 2), it's something that's extraordinarily difficult to change because most of the time no amount of compassion and understanding can overcome the sheer volume of shit they're fed in other social spaces. It's genuinely very sad to see
But as @SleeyMatt-zzz points out, it's also not on women to bear that burden categorically. Change has to come from within first, and hopefully that allows sympathetic people to facilitate their exit from toxic spaces
@@iivin4233I have never had to pay any money to talk to a woman, and I am shy as hell trying to meet strangers in public. Hell, I have had dates or girlfriends insist on paying for me half the time. Just being friendly costs nothing. You might get blown off sometimes, but if money was the sole reason, they aren't worth your time anyway. Always boggles my mind that the men most concerned about "golddiggers" and "304's" exclusively pay attention to women who are more likely to be after their money. Their loss... I wouldn't want the kind down-to-earth women I count as friends or take as lovers to have to deal with guys who see the world that way.
Yeah, I'd rather remain 5 foot 7 and be able to run, ski, and hike than get that bone lengthening surgery.
It originally started out in 3rd world nations that still have diseases such as polio and other afflictions that cause issues with the skeleton. It was used to even out the legs so they could walk properly and with little to no pain.
The first one to use it for cosmetics was a teen girl of a wealthy family. Many years ago i watched the documentary about it that followed her though out her yrs of surgeries (they use a chisel to manually break it and set the bones slightly farther apart. They can only do one leg at a time and it takes multiple surgical breaks to get even an inch, let alone multiple. Though I'm sure techniques have changed over the decades since this case.) It was literally just because shebwanted to be a couple inches taller. After that, it became more and more common for those with money to appropriate legitimate medical care for purely cosmetic reasons...Which is very common. Many cosmetic surgeries started out being developed for legitimate health reasons. Then ot was coopted by the wealthy for vanity.
The last part reminds me of HG Wells' original rulebook for wargaming, which contains an iconic introduction explaining how girls just dont get how playing with toys as an adult is actually cool and manly
"Birthday Buddy" is the term I use, and tomorrow I get to remind my red-hat father that his birthday buddy is Hill-dawg.
appreciate the yellow wallpaper reference by robert at 40:30 , passed off like a joke but a pretty great reference actually
It must be nice to be a grifter with no ethics or scruples. It seems like it makes life much easier since you can trick people into giving you absurd amounts of money and give them not only nothing in return, but even be abusive, and they thank you for it.
They’re abusing god awful men so it sorta evens out.
Well it’s perfectly ethical to grift grifters. Like go ahead and fleece the far right for everything they have
@nomoresuperhero
While you are likely correct, one could also call them misguided. If they had been given the right and solid advice they needed, then they likely would've never ended up there
@@alj4259 If they were capable of not being so far up their own asses to even listen to the right advice they wouldn't even be their to begin with.
I always gotta point out that one of the most masculine men in fiction, Wolverine, is 5'3". The amount of women that crave his squat manly ass is unreal.
Yep. Prince is my go-to example of a short king who never had an issue getting ladies. He was 5'2".
One of the most attractive men on the planet is an F1 driver named Fernando Alonso. He's 5'7". He has a genetic disorder that makes half his chest completely flat (Poland Syndrome). On paper, these manosphere types would tell him he's cooked. In practice, most *male* F1 fans have man-crushes on him. I'm a lesbian, and I have a little crush on this dude.
They should go through basic baseball training in what elementary school boys in Japan go through till highschool. The founding father of Japanese baseball training said the training is not effective unless the trainers is of the verge of death and pissing blood.
I think it's pretty funny that we're talking about masculinity in its toxic form while the woman just sits there quietly.
I'm very short and have had a million surgeries on my ankle (including inserting an artificial ankle joint). These guys and the doctors who operate on them make me so, so, so angry.
Do dudes realize that if you’re just nice and cool and dare I say it, respectful to women, they might hang out with you?
No one is less secure or weaker than a guy who has to keep reminding everyone he thinks he's superman
"boot camp is a game, the instructors are playing it, and if you realize it's a game you can play along too and get what you want out of it."
I didn't realize it was a game until after it had concluded. I took boot camp so ridiculously seriously 😂
Robert and Aubrey Gordon are the only 2 people I know of who regularly reference Bernarr McFadden.
That part about hobbies in the Great Depression is interesting. During the Great Recession running marathons became hugely popular among college educated millennials (myself included). It makes sense that people pressured to succeed their entire lives, who suddenly didn’t have the opportunity to do that would glom on to something like that.
Hobbies are also fun and make you feel better when you do them. It's why self indulgent behavoir tends to trend when teeming are bad or when someone is poor. They're more desperate to shoo away the darkness as they have a lot more of it to contend with than someone that is financially and/or mentally secure. Throughout history hobbies and public sports have been used as a distraction when things are bad. If anything, it's even more important when things are bad it's literally the only really good thing going on in your life.
as a long time listener my favorite thing about the video uploads is seeing the exasperated look on guests' faces when robert says "what's verbing my nouns"
hi im just here to say i love sophie thanks 😂
she's the only sane one 90% of the time except she becomes the unhinged one the other 10% and never knowing when she's gonna flip to unhinged is vastly entertaining to me 😅
btw thanks for this video format i really love being able to finally see yall after listening for years 😂❤
6:43 I'm a bit younger than robert and miles (I graduated hs in 2012 lmao) but I agree with them, i think there was a brief moment in youth culture around 2006-2008 where the scene/emo/alternative subculture became sort of mainstream for a minute and even tho I was like just barely a teenager at the time (13 in 2007 for reference) I do recall people being a little more accepting of the "weird" kids like me and my friends (turns out i was just Mentally Ill and autistic but ofc I didn't realise that until I was in college). anyway lots of horrible things from that time period but I don't think it's just nostalgia Robert's remembering here, like there was actually a tangible feeling of inclusiveness for a hot minute there. and then ofc we hit the "preppy" takeover of the 2010s that kicked the alt kids back to being the outsiders but it was nice while it lasted 😂
9:27 NO LITERALLY LMAO I had the same thought 😂
41:45 brb changing my name to general lunacy
50:58 the wildest part of this to me is that it seems a lot of the men wanting to be taller are doing it "for women" but like,, if they just, idk, asked a woman, most women I know (including myself, and I am 5'9" btw) consider height like basically irrelevant in a partner. sure it would be nice to have someone similar to my height but a few inches taller or shorter isn't really smth I care about, like if I met a guy with a great personality who I enjoy spending time with, I'm not gonna be like "oh but he's only 5'6" so ig he's trash and I can't date him" cos that's INSANE lmao.
also, just wanted to add: if someone you're potentially romantically interested in immediately nopes out if they realise you're short, DONT DATE THEM. fr you don't wanna be with someone who's that shallow that they refuse to give you a chance based on your height (this applies to any and all physical characteristics btw).
Men fixate on height because it is in general hard to meet women. So they can change many things about themselves, but the things they can't really change obsess them. Because you can always think about how life would be different having something you never will. Dating for hetero men is in general difficult and isolation makes some people crazy.
The comment about the short dudes who drive forklifts and have some type of cool knowledge is literally me to a tee!🤣😂😂
I've heard of the kind of therapy that makes you taller... In a documentary about dwarfism. Like the guy who underwent it was so short it made moving in this world, made for people of average height, more difficult. Being slightly over 150 cm literally improved the quality of his life. Seeing the guys who are, like, the height of an average woman undergo the same procedures as this disabled person just to feel more manly is kinda hillarious in its own twisted way
manfluencer more like manfluenza
Really looking forward to this. Need this! Sophie, you rock!
Points for the yellow wallpaper allusion. Well done.
I would imagine that this particular topic could stretch over a few years of weekly uploads.
Omg I know miles and Sophie from 420 Day Fiancé! I’m a new fan to BtB so this is a treat!
A 1hr session with my trauma specialized therapist is $150 out of pocket. For $12,000, he could get 80 therapy sessions. Thats literally a year and a half of therapy if he went once per week.
So I'm keen on axes -- axe throwing can be a fun way to blow off steam. But what's up with all the axes on the wall in that one video?
Another thing someone could spend $12K on -- a custom built walk-in closet for their axes.
@@owenreynolds8718 Right? Safety first and all that.
To be fair i think there is a niche for non abusive man camps.
You go for a week or two, hang around other men and you camp outside together.
And while there you are taught basic live skills. You get taught basic auto repair, basic plumbing, how to clean and butcher an animal, cooking, basic survival and so on.
Basically building up the participants self worth through learning useful skills and male bonding. It wont be for everyone, but i feels it will help some guys who feel kinda lost in life.
1:45 Did Miles just say "Im Gray"?
Thats hillarious!
this whole time I thought the show stops dead while I’m flung into social casino style games on my favorite pastime app, Chumba Casino. Keep up the posts gang!
"it's my little treat..."
The analogy with the cargo cult is very interesting.
Thought Slime has a pretty good video also covering the Knight Project, though he doesn't go into depth about the culture surrounding it.
*they
But also very true it's a banger of a video
Thoughtslime is also one of the most crybully people on the left.
@@Southboundpachyderm Yuh huh, that’s nice. Didn’t ask.
@@Southboundpachyderm can't help but tell on yourself lol
Robert refusing to pronounce Milo correctly made me genuinely laugh. Love that energy.
You can at least justify this stuff for the military because it is a job that requires a lot of physical discomfort, and desensitization to that is probably a good idea. For the money they spend on these tough guy camp, you could absolutely buy a pesonal trainer to make you stronger physically, a therapist to make you stronger mentally, and if you still need someone to spit on you to feel good, a dominatrix, and still have money leftover. All these guys get out of this is a sign over their heads that says, "I am an easy mark, and this is what I'm insecure about." Back in the day, it was a sports car they would sell you. Now it's this.
At least a sports car still has some resale value once you come to your senses.
Unironically, i was one of the idiots who fell for gamergate hook line and sinker, had been following to like MRA stuff for a while and got all righteously angry at 16-17 over it. To anybody still in the like weird space, things get better. It took me a long time to stop being hateful but education did me wonders. The loneliness issue though for real its such a huge part of shit like this. I only broke into being a right wing mra so long ago because of being dumped by a girl (I know its stupid as shit 12 years of hindsight and all that). Don't let that negative shit rule you. You will get better all things come with time. Its about the efforts you put into yourself to improve in a meaningful way.
I apologize to all the women I told findom was fake because no man would actually participate. I am ashamed to say it took a man to show me the error of my ways. I will be enrolling in Rocko's Hard Bod Boys2Men Tough Guy Experience to strengthen me going forward.
Ok. Watching this, this is actual full on domming, not findom. I do believe these guys would pay to be yelled at online.
@@justcommenting4981 No see that's sexual and being sexual is wrong. It's so much more normal to pay thousands of dollars to get degraded and ordered around for a week by a muscular dominant figure, in a TOTALLY NOT SEXUALLY GRATIFYING WAY, GUYS IT'S NOT SEXUAL I SWEAR
Not only do I know moms love Eminem, I also learned today that Janelle Brown (ex sister-wife of Sister Wives fame) listens to a lot of Eminem on her workout playlists
I am online too much
As someone who is five feet tall. I can calmly say that my aversion to pain cleanly stifled any possibility of me wanting to even tangentially think of limb elongation surgery.
"What's Mendez, my brothers" had me choking on my own spit
Extraneous: Hearing someone else use the term “birthday twin” fills me with gleeful warm fuzzies. 🥰
I just wanna say I'm listening to this while riding on my bike trainer in the kitchen after work while my husband makes dinner.
HOMICIDE AND LUNACY FOREVER!!!
I had a dream I was at a gathering with cool people, and Robert was there, and I got to tell him how much I love this series. Cody Johnston was there, too. It was a good time.
I remember watching videos on RUclips in like 2012 about hell week and teenage me was like “oh cool!” Boy did I dodge a bullet.
13:00 mark or so, having been through it, Robert is entirely right. There is also a huge aspect of ethics instruction, from what are you joining, history of the force, and working as a team. A huge part of the screaming is not to "harden you" it to break your ego so that you can be taught to work well with others. Trust falls, buddy carries, "swim buddies".
I highly doubt these manly bootcamp things have such things.
Good to finally see Miles! Perfect guest for the subject matter.
20:54 I'm a garbage man. I like my job. In a union. I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination, but I have my own place. Can afford the little things. I always wanna ask dudes like this if I'm less of a man for the things I do and the person I am.
You’d hope these people would quickly see your value if you and all your co-workers decided to stop working for a week. I lived in a city that had garbage strikes for a couple of weeks and it got gross REAL fast. Thank you for doing a job many won’t do.
Dude, your work is invaluable, there is no way you're less of a man, more specifically because you're one and nothing makes you less of a man other than being tr a ns, and because the world is much better because of the work you do.
Therapy is cheaper than those courses. Actually, spending money on those courses instead of therapy is just making you eventually need more therapy. So, cut out the middle man and just go to therapy.
Short being viewed as less is toxic masculinity. Its not inevitable. I feel like we pretend like that isn't acknowledged because its women doing the toxicity. Toxic ideals are learned and can be unlearned. Just like being overweight or general ideas of toxic standards of femininity
Any chance we could get a list of sources in the description of an episode? I typically listen while doing other activities, but this topic among others is one I'd like to read about later
Love this episode
And here I thought I was going to hear about Jack LaLanne and Charles Atlas and the Hoffman Barbell Co.
The music in that bone extension tiktok is the same from the African funeral dance memes a few years ago.
Martian Manfluencer would be the worst superhero.
One of his "powers" is trying to sell you crypto-backed PUA courses
Things have generally got briefly a bit better for most people at around age 16, just because their peer group is no longer 14 and 15, which are some of the absolute worst ages a human being can be. Just the most insecure, cruel, hormone-addled, status-obsessed and stinky years of the first half of a human life. 80% of everybody is their very worst self at age 14. At least until they hit their 40's or 50's and start losing their natural immunity to conservatism, and the possibilities begin to get exponentially worse.
way too accurate
I do largely agree, but the danger now is that so many 18-22 year olds who are exposed to this stuff are coming out of school and into the real world, where it's largely not great economically, and are constantly told by these grifters: "It's easy to succeed, and if you don't then it's [insert minority here]'s fault that you can't" and unfortunately for a certain set of people they just buy in because that's more comforting than realizing that everyone is struggling right now. Especially if they they're aggressively online, once they get sucked into a regressive online space that tells them that they *deserve* success based on their sex/race, it's much harder to get them out unless they have social connections outside it.
@@milii113 I don't ever disagree that kids ought not to be exposed to misogynistic, racist and cruel bullshit intended to rob them of their money and their dignity. I hate those grifters as much as anyone.
My only point was that there's a general tendency for teens to get less hateful around 16, regardless of the cultural environment.
Part of the reason BUDS has Hell Week and all the hazing shit at the beginning is because the Navy casts such a wide net for SEAL recruits and most applicants lack combat experience or even combat training beyond basic weapons qualification. It’s just there to separate all the chaff they inevitably get. All the other special operations training pipelines have less of it. It’s not even really training these camps imitate, just a sort of systematic hazing.
And if you want exercize, just help out at a smaller fatm, there is a lot stuff to do at times, cheaper too probably ,
ok violence, get them into some mma training? Any similar, em mua thai, any more full combat martial art? Here, you have healthy violence but way healthier. I know its not about violence. But if you want to, violence tough. Ore hell go to a shooting range regulary?
you believe that?
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Do you believe something else?
@@marocat4749 they need the validation from an official dudebro. Just working out or volunteering somewhere isn't sufficient. They want the esthetic.
my favorite thing about the thumbnail picture is the guy in the backround on the left checking his phone. i like to think hes playing candy crush or sending cute animal pics to him mom
@9:20 is like watching people going through corp diversity training, ir those women yelljng in the woods things.