Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Multiclassing
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2019
- A bonus video where I discuss the Multiclass options for Wizard. I focus on the multiclassing I will be doing in my Wizard builds, but also discuss common mistakes regarding the multiclass rules.
At 13:34 my camera froze and I had to re-record a couple minutes of video, I notice my notes turn really blurry and unreadable for that re-recorded segment, but it is the same document that was previously up on the screen, so no information is lost and I think I just won't worry about it, but when you see that, that's the reason.
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Игры
At 13:34 my camera froze and I had to re-record a couple minutes of video, I notice my notes turn really blurry and unreadable for that re-recorded segment, but it is the same document that was previously up on the screen, so no information is lost and I think I just won't worry about it, but when you see that, that's the reason.
A big reason to multiclass before wizard is if there is a party lack. If the party has no rogue like, then take it for 1st level and then go Wizard. The difference in power between a level 1 wizard and level 1 rogue is little, and the difference between a level 1 and level 2 wizard isn't that big when you consider the benefit of a rogue in the party "for free". By the time you get to 8th and up, your 1 rogue is now worthless, but you have many other options to replace that lack.
I keep seeing people say abjuration is better than divination for a wizard dipping level1 cleric.
Any thoughts on this?
Artificer makes a terrific dip for wizards: same key stat, proficiency in constitution saving throws, proficiency in medium armor and shields, adds more utility to the already great wizard repertoire including changeable cantrips, preparing from it's entire list and ritual casting. Infusions are great and it's thematic. The artificer is UA right now but it's confirmed for the next Eberron book in November.
@@wizard380 someone didn't read the whole comment
@@anthonynorman7545 Its in the official books now :)
Ok but how much of a dip and at what levels
@@certanmike I would start as Artificer, at least 1 lvl, I'd take another ones depending on what I want to accomplish. But just 1 lvl dip at the start works great, I'm actually playing an Artificer 1/Wizard X.
Probably just one level. If I remember right, Artificers are a half class, like paladins and rangers, but you round up on the half levels, instead of down like the other two. In that way, you would lose no spell slot progression.
One other thing that I think is worth mentioning about the fighter dip is the proficiency in con saves if you take it at level 1, which is a fairly significant defensive upgrade.
Yeah thats a huge advantage of taking that fighter dip as lvl 1
Yes, I should have mentioned that
That basically makes up for losing the feat on a 2 level dip since the resilient feat is no longer necessary
@@anthonynorman7545 imho it's a two-sided coin. Some would agree to the multiclassing costs, others would rather "pay" a feat to avoid multiclassing. Granted, even a single Fighter level can give a huge boost to a caster, and with levelling one's spellcasting eventually won't suffer that much.
@@destroyerinazuma96 I was speaking purely in regards to the lost of the ASI. Anything beyond that is very debatable and subjective.
One significant advantage I think you missed with a rogue multiclass is using hide with the cunning action. In a battle against other spell casters, this would allow you to often cast spells while hidden and so probably be able to avoid being counterspelled.
As was pointed out, the biggest downside of multiclassing as a Wizard (if you only want to go for a "dip") is that it delays your spell progression significantly.
When we theorycraft builds, we often look at them through the lense of a character that is already level 20, not at a level 1 character that is slowly progression through a long campaign to (mayb) eventually reach level 20.
But always being 1 or 2 levels behind a non-multiclassed full caster really hurts. This is even true when picking another full caster because getting the full spell slot progression is *not* making up for the fact that we get higher level spells significantly later.
Discord notification actually beat the youtube notification! Always good to see more videos from you, keep up the good work!
Indeed i saw it first on the Discord
I first came across your wizard guide online. And I am glad to see you have excellent videos too!
wow we'be got the same sources. Found a link on enworld first, in my case.
Thanks this was perfect. I had wanted to hear a logical thought about this that was not just my POV.
Surprise video! And super technical. So generous of you.
A 2 lvl dip in tempest cleric gives you heavy armor, shields, the ability to damage enemies that hit you, thunderwave and fog cloud. And a channel divinity that let's you do max damage with lightning and thunder spells once per short rest... worthy of a mention if you're looking at a lightning evoker.
Speaking of which, have you seen the UA Theurgy Arcane Tradition media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf ? Picking tempest domain for that is really cool, because you get full wizard progression, and can channel arcana multiple times per short rest to do max lightning/thunder damage. You also get the 17 level tempest ability (flight!!) at level 14 instead
The disadvantage of war and tempest domains though is the reliance on wisdom fot the special abilities.
In contrast, life domain gives you a constant boost to healing spells, except that those already rely on WIS.
Blessing of the Forge and heavy armor proficiency work the best and have no dependence on WIS. The +1 for forge domain can also get tacked on to a weapon if you plan on being in melee, which helps make up for a lower attack stat.
I feel like sorcerer can be a valuable 1st lvl as well, though the best you will get for AC on one is 13+dex.
On the other hand, it takes three levels to get metamagic, and to make the most of Flexible casting you need 7 levels of sorcerer.
However, at Sorc 7, flexible casting will let you make 5th lvl spell slots
You can start Warforged Envoy to dump Strength and still use heavy armor and shield to make putting together the stats easier.
M0ebius
And dwarves also are not hindered by armor strength requirements if recall.
The envoy can get you bonuses to con, int and dex though which is stellar starting out. And adding proficiency to AC means that you do not have to invest much in dex for a decent AC either.
To me, the best options are still single level of hexblade or forge cleric (especially if you think you will need a melee weapon. I have looked at builds for sorcerers and wizards with both of those dips numerous times
The artificer being a thing now almost completely invalidates the cleric multiclass. Proficiency in con saves, medium armor, shields, perception, and weapons if you want to make use of the blade cantrips. You also gain access to a few notable spells missing from the wizard list: cure wounds, faerie fire, and guidance, as well as the magical tinkering which kinda acts like a prestidigitation style cantrip. An argument could be made that you would never not wanna take a level of artificer for a wizard build.
I really like a 1st level fighter dip for an Abjurer. Starting Vhuman with a 16 also in DEX you can either take Mobile for free single-target 'disengages' that pairs well with Booming Blade to discourage pursuit. Alternatively you can take MAM and Defensive fighting style to start the game with 20AC (Scale+3+2+1) and you can even stay stealthy.
This means that when melee comes your way, you can either withdraw (Mobile) or hang tough (MAM) and you aren't as dependent on spells like Mage Armor, Misty Step, or things like Mirror Image quite as much (though should still keep the latter handy for big bads). But a few goons you should be able to tank on your ward and AC and let the DPR keep doing their thing and not have to come try to rescue you. And all the while still maintaining concentration fairly well.
I'd maybe take that second fighter level at CL7 after you get 3rd level spells.
I just wanted to point out that those two extra HP at first level become only 1 once you take the second class.
Wizard then Cleric is 6 + 5 = 11 HP
Cleric then Wizard is 8 + 4 = 12 HP
I have been enjoying the single Cleric level for the armour and healing spells. My thoughts from playing is that if the party is of mixed level you do not notice the missing high level spells as much (providing you are at the top). If you are level 6 and half of the party are 5 everyone is still casting third level spells, or martial characters having there extra attack.
I left a comment on the augur video about knowledge cleric/war magic wizard. Another point to going war is the boost to initiative from intelligence. saves me from felling like I need the alert feat.
That was a .. ridonkulous explanation. Thanks, man!
I'm currently level 4 evoker wizard in my game. Gonna get to level 5 evoker, then take 2 levels in the Zeal Domain cleric from Plane Shift Amonkhet. Heavy armor, martial weapons, and I can maximize damage on a fire spell once per short rest. Max damage fireballs that don't have friendly fire? Yes please, I'll take a few of those.
Thank you, that was very helpful 😊
I would love to see a wizard dip guide as a follow up, as you mentioned they can be useful but not much else about it.
I'll think about it
@@TreantmonksTemple I would love to see you do a video on that. 👍
A small consideration when MC is if your stats align right and the resilient feat you can get 3 save proficiencies with 2 of them being “good” ones (Wis, Con, Dex.). It’s something to think about at PC creation and planning, as saving throws are never wasted.
@@gamecavalier3230 Feats can only be taken once, unless otherwise specified in their description. Thus, you can only take Resilient once. Only a few classes let you gain proficiency in 2 out of the 3 big saves (Dexterity, Constitution and Wisdom), and Wizard ain't one of them.
@@gamecavalier3230 Well couldn't you start cleric for wis prof then add transmutation wizard 6 and resilient dex for the 3rd?
This one time I made an oathbreaker paladin multiclassed with Necromancer wizard. It was pretty good, I had high charisma and Intelligence.
You spoil us Treantmonk
and here I am thinking of creating a Paladin 2 Divination Wizard 18
I'm playing a wizard3/druid2. Attacks as a lion until the hit points run out, then uses 3rd let spell slots to cast Thunderwave and catapult. Lots of utility spells too. I cast enlarge on our gloomstalker last week and he fought an ogre (that he was now bigger than)
I appreciate this video man! I was recently thinking of a 1 Fighter / Abjuration Wizard X build, and while I don't think you've changed my mind (yet :P ) you've definitely given me good food for thought.
Edit: talked about the Con save Fighter thing but saw you replied to another comment on that :)
Ooh also - if you're using point buy and you try and take 13 Wisdom for Cleric, it leaves you with one awkward point to allocate that I dislike :/
Thank you for doing this video. It's a good comparison and people multiclass far too often in level 20 mindset, like you said. I'm at the point where if a build isn't 'somewhat online' by level 3 and 'fully online' by level 5, it's too slow. Even that is pretty slow. What about multiclassing to the obviously superior sorcerer? (I kid they are both great classes).
Two things about this video that are also important notes is that you get different saving throw proficiencies. It's especially good for fighters for their con proficiency.
There is also the bonus action casting that gets a bit messed up that was even misspoke here in the difference between rounds and turns. When you cast a bonus action spell you cannot cast any reactions at all (cantrip only of casting time 1 action) but only during your turn. Once the turn ends and the next character starts you could cast counterspell or other reaction spell. Some people forget about this somewhat important side note. Personally I think that limitation is a bit arbitrary and stupid anyway. Who is the target? Quicken sorcerer I guess mostly? Might as well just note that as a requirement on the quicken section or even just drop it.
ICEFANG13 correct. There are far too many builds and ideas that are not viable to actually play with a group from 1 on up unless it’s in a one shot.
smbakeresq Not all campaigns start on lvl 1 though. Mine generally starts on 3 or 5 when playing with experienced players. Another good place to insert an experimental build is when your character expires while the rest of the campaign continues.
One-shots are where you bust out the really ridiculous builds, the Warforged Tempest Cleric/Storm Sorcerer/Hexblade Warlock/Lore Wizard multiclass and what not.
I agree with you and that's one reason that I say 'kinda online' by level three in that many games start at that level. Now that we're around level 8 I consider a few different multiclass builds that could be fun but not good for a hump of levels like Darkness Warlock+Monk. Maybe not good, but could be fun.
ICEFANG13 My party loves multiclassed characters, so we like starting at level 3 or 5 to frontload the MC with the backstory built-in, and everyone starts on roughly the same progression (unless you’re extra greedy).
Level 8 is a good starting point for many MC builds though, fitting both the level 5 power bump from class A and the archetype from class B.
M0ebius it wouldn’t be you start at level 3 or 5 to make MC easier would it? That GREATLY changes the experience. The highest chance of PC death is at level 1 and decreases from there, although it’s much better then it was in earlier editions.
To me that’s like buying an account in a video game leveled up with full equipment. It’s not my thing, but it is a scourge in online games. In this game it isn’t but it certainly colors the experience and I see now why you always MC Hexblade into everything, you never have to work for it. Try a full campaign from 1 up, it might change how you see choices. Strategic decisions are what all games are about, if you remove repercussions (good and bad) for a choice then you have eliminated the strategy.
The group I play in always play full campaigns from ground up as the development of the PC is interesting, entertaining and important, leading to greater enjoyment of the actual adventuring itself as you are invested beyond the optimization. It also leads to plot lines with repercussions, including long term, the decision you make with an NPC at level 1-3 will have an effect at levels 11-13 as you move up the authority chain.
I play with experienced players also, all at least 10+ years, for me it’s 35+. We also are essentially the playtest group for Restoration Games, which everyone should check out.
I really think Paladin's MC rules are the most restrictive to MC into, when you're not even getting cantrips at all or spells until level 2.
For my Bladesinger/Fighter I go Fighter Eldritch Knight 3 right out the door. It definitely hurts your progression a lot and offsets you dramatically. Losing Wizard's awesome 18th-level feature is another heavy blow. What I gain from this though is the ability to always have Shield and Absorb Elements (plus a reliable damage spell like Magic Missile) always prepared, I get more cantrips so that I can have better offensive and utility options, Con Save proficiency so Resilient (Con) doesn't clog up my ASI progression, and I get the EK's situationally useful 3rd-level features. The main reason is to get the extra survivability and utility throughout the life of the character and this build works best in campaigns starting out at higher levels like 8-10ish. If I ever took the character to 20th level though then I'm not sure if I'd rather have 18 wizard or 3 fighter at that point...
I have a changling conjuration wizard at lvl 5 and was thinking the next couple lvl of going into rouge or maybe a fighter haven’t decided I’m thinking on the rouge to fit her race what would be a dip ratio to do I was thinking 3 rouge then back to wizard but idk
Seems point buy as a half-elf (high elf or moon elf variant for Minor Illusion) makes the Paladin 2/Bladesinger X multiclass quite viable.
You can then start with STR 13, DEX 16 (15+1), CON 12, INT 14 (13+1), WIS 8, CHA 14 (12+2), meaning you meet all requirements for multiclassing with pretty decent stats.
1st level I'd hang back, use Minor Illusion to obscure myself or others and shoot stuff with a bow.
2nd level pretty much the same, but probably add Bless to the party (or Divine Favor on my arrows if there are zombies or some other stuff that doesn't like radiant damage), and maybe try to flank and smite on a boss.
Then, at 3rd level, the wizarding can begin, but you are still support but a bit more melee ready since you now have Shield (and also a Familiar that can deliver Cure Wounds on people).
It'll take a while to really get going with this multiclass, but outside Adventurer's League (since there's some really good Xanathar's spells I'd want) this could be really stong for support, social play and burst damage. Still, good in League play too, but no Shadow Blade and I just love that spell when going Palasinger. :P
I'd probably play this character as not very paladin-like, because the paladin career starts out with avoiding melee and sniping enemies while hidden by magic. I'd maybe even go with a Charlatan background for the fun tool proficiencies.
Kind of like: righteous hero is actually a coward with zero regard for honor, because at 8 wisdom you are not the bravest of the bunch, and just in it to win it. Sometimes it's just easier to nail the door shut, torch the place and shoot anyone who makes it out from a safe distance... then you make up a good story about the "honorable and heroic battle" you fought. After all, people want is something they can believe in. It doesn't really matter if you make it a better story, as long as the end result is the same. :)
I think it's a much better option is to be paladin 2/ Bard of swords X. With bladesinger you lose the heavy armor and shield.
If you had a sorcerer/fighter multiclass with action surge and quicken metamagic, could use use action surge two cast two spells, and then quicken metamagic on each action to cast a cantrip, to give you two spells and two cantrips?
It might be worth it to point out that the cantrips you get from those other classes will be using their primary spellcasting ability, *not* Intelligence.
Edited to add - Warlock only gives 1 pact magic slot at level 1, so a 1 level dip is only giving 1 extra 1st level spell per short rest.
Which is often overlooked as is stat requirements for MC. I have seen many Paladin/ Hexblade MC posted all over that don’t meet the STR requirements to MC.
Playing a level 4 Lore Mastery Wizard (UA). I was looking at adding 1 level of Cleric or Artificer. What level should I do that at? Or should I do it at all?
I think my next character will be a wizard, which I've never played before.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick with pure wizard when I do.
I am currently playing a sorlock with 3 levels in warlock, the rest in sorcerer. I did it for the pseudodragon familiar, which has been fun. But dang, I also kind of wish i had those higher level spells sometimes.
This is a good video for combat, but I think a quick discussion about role playing and exploration might be worthwhile in the future. If your wizard is partly barbarian, it might not have anything mechanically, but getting into a fight with the local librarian where the spindly old man suddenly rips a dictionary in half might suddenly open up new avenues
Though having a character be "rage" prone is not necessarily something we need to support with an ability called "rage" on our character sheet. I much prefer to have abilities that support my character concept than have them tell me what my character concept is if that makes sense.
@@TreantmonksTemple That's a good point, and an interesting perspective
I'm not sure, but I think you forgot to mention that if you take your first level in fighter you also get Con save proficiency, which will save you the need to take Resilient (Constitution).
Hi. I'm a bit concerned. In my current game I'm a luv 2 gnome Cleric/ lv 1 Wizard. Planning to stick with Wiz from here on, but I'm going to be really behind the gun for spell progression toward higher levels spells. Can anyone recommend some good spells (Wiz) that might be upcast to mitigate this? Wish d seen these videos earlier but my group just started playing 5e. We've been doing savage worlds for years, so I'm afraid I dint plan this out well. I suppose I'll go diviner to at least make my lower spells land more often. Anyway any ideas are appreciated. As I said I'm starting to get concerned I took 1 to many last of Cleric. I don't want to be a drag on my group.
Artificer 1 / Wizard X
Con save proficiency
Medium armor proficiency
Selection of spells not normally available to Wizards (fairie fire, cure wounds) that are cast with INT.
I just realised that abjuration wizard with armor of agathys can be really nasty in the right circumstances.
Let's say you're level 12 (10 Wizard, 2 Warlock) fighting a melee based monster, and you cast a 5th level armor of agathys on yourself.
This brings your arcane ward up to 25 HP (assuming an Int of 20) and gives you 25 temp hp.
That creature takes 25 cold damage any time it hits you when you have those 50 hit points.
It is nastier than that - you have absorb elements to cut elemental damage in half, AND stoneskin or bladeward to halve bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. And every time you cast shield, absorb elements (which can be upcast) or another abjuration spell you recharge the arcane ward. You can use you action and reaction to be healing the ward, and still be dealing 25 damage whenever they hit you.
If you go deep gnome, the svirfneblin magic feat lets you cast nondetection at will, adding to your ward every time without having to expend additional resources.
And: if your concentration is on stoneskin you dont have to make concentration checks as long as the ward is up.
But wouldn’t you rather cast wall of force for a 5th level spell slot and make the fight a lay up for your party instead?
Thank you.
Getting Quickencast with a divine soul sorcerer can really improve your quality of life as a wizard. When I play a wizard, I often find myself getting frustrated with having nothing to do with my bonus action. That 3 level dip can really help with this. It's worth getting the high level spells and perks a bit later IMO.
Three levels is more than a bit late though.
@@M0ebius forums tend to say that a Wizard 17/Sorcerer 3 is a potent choice, but few games go that far or feature that level of PC's :)
Destroyer Inazuma Exactly. Potent choice at level 20 with break point at 17.
@@sharkforce8147 I think I saw it on reddit on two or three occasions, while specifically looking for Sorcerer/Wizard builds. Doesn't reddit count as a forum too, kinda? if I doesn't, then I'll correct my comment
Reddit counts, and I’ve seen it suggested. But not by people who has actually played said character. The stats are MAD, the delayed progression is severe unless you wait until the end of the campaign, and for all that trouble you get 3 Sorcery Points.
Wood Elf Druid with standard stats and Criminal Background (spy):
STR 8 DEX 14 (12+2) CON 14 INT 13 WIS 16 (15+1) CHA 10 PW 15 and 10 hp
Proficiencies: Perception, Arcana, Survival, Deception, Stealth, herbalism kit, one game and Thieves Tools.
Sell the leather armor and scimitar and buy hide armor and an herbalism kit.
Armor class 16 from Hide armor with shield and +2 DEX modifier. Also, +4 to hit and +2 damage with finesse/ranged weapons.
Cantrips: guidance and resistance
Rituals: Detect Magic, Guiding Hand, Purify Food and Drink, Speak with Animals, Wild Cunning.
Detect Magic is as named. Guiding Hand gets you from A to B. Wild Cunning allows you to track an enemy or game (along with Survival), make
a camp and find clean food and drinking water. When no fresh food or drink is available, Purify Food and Drink is an option. Speak with Animals
gives you info on the surrounding area. RAW, you at least know about creatures and locations. If you use this every overland hex, you should
never be surprised and can use Guiding Hand to perhaps find the locations.
These will always be available to your character. You get to use 4 prepared first level Druid spells of your choice, like Goodberries or Animal Friend.
Perhaps you gain a Wolf friend that becomes a Warrior Sidekick.
This character also allows the crafting of potions, scrolls and magic items.
Switch to Wizard at second level for another three cantrips like Fire Bolt, Minor Illusion and Messages with six known spells: Magic Missile,
Sleep, Expeditious Retreat, Find Familiar (owl), Unseen Servant and Shield. I use Unseen Servant to move a robed dummy in front of the party
to harmlessly trigger traps or ambushes. I call this trick Mannequin Skywalker.
After four levels of Wizard, you take the Skilled Expert Feat for a +1 to INT raising your modifier and expertise in Perception and Stealth.
I don't know how good it is, but Order subdomain sounds fun. Free extra sneak attack for the rogue when you cast Bless or Heroism or Haste. Turn your ally into a T-rex or Giant Ape and have them attack immediately. Could really help nova an enemy down.
I am in a campaign right now using a warforged envoy war wizard/order domain cleric multiclass.
1 lvl order for heavy armor proficiency and the ability to choose a teammate to reaction weapon attack if they are targeted by a spell. The class feature dowsing care if the spell is cast with an action/bonus action, or even if the spell is beneficial in nature.
Bless is great for low level spell expenditure for benefit, the individual chosen gets to reaction attack with the increase in accuracy immediately.
The guidance and resistance cantrip can boost either initiative or a save before battle, I typically always have guidance up though. These spells become a free source of concentration later that have great synergy with the 10th level war magic feature boosting AC and Saves even further.
Armor of faith eventually becomes a +4 AC boost when used on yourself.
Healing word to make teammates attack as a bonus action from distance.
War wizard to be able to get the bonus to initiative. The bonus on saves is very nice as a reaction. Chose Alert feat to further increase chances of going first. The warforged don’t sleep so alert feat never turns off. Being able to judge the battlefield and make the choice of what spells to use before the chaos begins helps greatly.
The 16+proficiency+shield(armor) and potentially shield(spell) with no strength investment is incredible. Alert helps here as well by making sure attack rolls against him don’t have advantage as a result of not being seen. Robot reflexes are crazy like that.
His name is sparky, he is a cloistered scholar. He penned “sparks notes” for up and coming wizards. :)
I’ve tested the Order Cleric, but to be honest if your campaign runs a lot of encounters the reaction attack burns spell slots way too fast to use consistently. Also there’s the awkward tension of wanting to cast Bless immediately vs waiting for teammates to engage first, or wanting to hold the Healing Word until teammates go down vs getting that extra hit in.
M0ebius
The spell slot burn is definitely a factor. I just got finished playing today and even with high AC, I had to make judgements on the use of shield/absorb elements weighed against the use of bless or healing word.
I’m playing with a strength based fighter using a pole arm, and a paladin/warlock attempting to make a crit fisher.
The feature says weapon attack. so it does work with ranged weapon attacks if you have a ranger or rogue, rogue being ideal in my opinion.
My teammates having limited reach have made it difficult for me to use the feature sometimes. This was compounded by the fact that I really wanted to get bless off to pick that attacker but my initiative is often so high that my party takes a while to get in range
The combo I ran across today was casting dragons breath on myself or my familiar at the beginning of the combat. I’d have free use of my action to dragons breath attack a small group, even when forced to use my reaction to give up leveled spells to gain the +4 save bonus to keep concentration. Then if I rolled decent damage I could choose to healing word the paladin. If my familiar was around they would fly over, help action, then go hide behind a rock or a tree. Seemed like it really worked wonders.
It seemed potent and the spells back on a short rest feature for wizard really helped out.
Paladin went down to a massive crit from a monster at one point. Was almost enough to kill him outright at character level 8. Healing word brought him back up and he even managed to land a hit with his reaction while prone/disadvantaged.
I came here to second considering the Order domain cleric. I you're sometimes catching allies in area of effect spells, it helps alleviate that.
@@markcronan I didn't even think about friendly fire triggering the wording. Adds a whole new layer of meaning to lighting a fire under your party to get them to take action.
What would be a good generalist? A wizard, rogue multiclass? Not super in combat but can do something in almost every situation?
I rolled my stats, and I got a 14 in Wisdom. Would be also Light Cleric a good choice? Because of the ability of giving disadvantage to attackers a number of times= wis modifier/day.
What are your thoughts about it?
With that wisdom it's a decent choice
i pick wizard at 1st level i cant change it. what should i multiclass or not. my stat is str:8 dex:14 con:14 int:16 wis:12 cha:10
should i go straight wizard. ty
This build idea is for a character who meets all multiclassing minimums. So if you are taking a level dip, you have all the options. Just don't be "Abserd" about it.
The concept is you are the local handyman (or handy woman) in your town. You take up pretty much any job. Crafting, fixing, fighting, you name it.
This requires regular human.
Using point buy:
12 in every ability score leaving you 3 points remaining. Use the rest to bump up Charisma. For background pick any, although Guild Artisan is the best fit for a Handyman/woman. Just swap that language for a second tool proficiency.
Take your first two levels in Bard. This is for Jack of All Trades. At level 2 your build is already complete.
This character has no real affinity for any of the classes. They will either remain a Bard or multiclass according to events in the campaign. With a 13 or higher in every ability score this is doable.
I am thinking of an excitable adventurer who is curious about everything. They however lack a dedication towards any particular vocation. They are chaotic neutral in outlook, not willing to be tied down.
In terms of skills, Investigation, Perception and Performance are key. This person won't shut up about their exploits. It shows. With this build, dipping into any class is doable. They won't be the most powerful but they will be versatile.
Thoughts on a abjure wizard and divine soul sorcerer? Thinking 17 wizard and 3 sorcerer
If you find spell books and scrolls to copy into your spell book then the spell level selection is mitigated. Or is there a resriction on coping spells into yoir spell book in 5e that i dont about. If your DM is only allowing spell acquisition at level up I would say you have a bad DM.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but starting with a class other than wizard will not give you your spellbook (the physical item), right?
So you would have to both scrape together the 50GP AND (depending on your table) come up with a reasonable explanation why you would like to acquire something like that :)
Yes, you would need to buy a spellbook. I imagine the reasonable explanation would be "I'm learning to become a wizard" right?
Steal it from an enemy
This is also true in reverse though - for example, with a Cleric dip, if you start as a Wizard then you'll have to get the armor separately (and it's roughly the same cost as a spellbook). So it kind of evens out, but it is indeed an extra cost compared to single class.
Also worth mentionning is if you multiclass with another spellcasting class, you're going to want a component pouch, because foci are class specific (so you can't use your holy symbol to cast wizard spell, or your arcane focus to cast cleric spells).
Seb
Yes, you would want a component pouch likely.
HOWEVER
Clerics can use an emblem on a shield, which something you are likely to wield if you have gone through the trouble of multiclassing.
On the other hand, Warlocks can use an arcane focus to cast spells, so in many cases it could be the same as your wizard focus. The exception is that certain magic wants/rods/staffs are attunable only by certain classes. Using one attunable by both wizards and warlocks would seem optimal.
Dang over-expensive college textbooks.
Thoughts on a dragonborn draconic bloodline necromancer, I'd be only taking 1 level in sorcerer
Great but sobering video, currently at 3AT/4Divener. Definitely not following the optimancer creed. I have to think there are more than a few rogues that liked magic, went arcane trickster and then decided they Really liked magic and started MC into wizard. I might see if I can reconfigure this character but RP wise this is where it ended up. Doing shadow blade, booming blade, sneak attack, flaming sphere and familiar help most of the time.
Not something you can plan for in a build usually, but what about dipping bard so you can attune to instrument of the bards and cast Hypnotic Pattern with advantage?
As you mention, it's not something you can really plan for, and normally I wouldn't throw a 13 in Cha just in case...
Hey Chris, which of your build videos contain the Fighter and Rogue dips?
I'm kind of surprised not to see any mention of the Sorcerer multiclass, if only because after lvl 17 of wizard there is very little downside for access to metamagic.
I focused on the multiclassing I have planned for my wizard build videos. As for Sorcerer, I agree you could take it from 17-20, but that means you get Metamagic at level 20, I don't think that's an opportunity that comes up very often.
If you want to use metamagic, you'd have to go Sorc 3. It'd be a pretty edge case mechanically when 3 sorcerer points is worth at-will 1st and 2nd level spells at 18, an ASI at 19, and a free potential fireball and haste at level 20, plus 2 additional spells prepared of any level.
It could be fun flavor, but, like most of these multiclasses, it'd definitely be mechanically under-powered.
I know this is an old video, but I have a question, can you go 19 levels in any full caster & dip wizard 1 level & then find any wizard spell & put it in your spell book to use it later? Cuz as I read the rules for copying wizard spells down in your spell book, the only requirement is that you need a high enough spell slot to be able to cast that spell in the first place which is the same requirements for preparing a spell.
I came to watch Wizard multiclass videos for this exact same reason, hopefully we'll get a clarification at some point (tough I'd go Wizard 2, Divination has that sweet portent, or Order of Scribes for regainable Spellbook after something happened to it, sadly the scroll part is to high level, as that would also blow the prepared limitation of estimated 3-7 due to minimum itelligence of 13 equaling +1and going above 20 is unlikely with multiclass before boon grinding past level 20... oh whishful thingking, well, creating scrolls still works at its normal price)
I made the mistake of thinking I got all of the proficiencies of the multiclass. D&Dbeyond corrected me on that mistake.
Was considering a variant human abjuration wizard/monk.
Hexblade is actually a far better multiclass option for sorcerer or especially bard than wizard, since you can take the Eldritch Blast cantrip, gain the benefit of multiple attacks and force damage (and in the bard's case, an attack cantrip that *does NOT* do cr@p damage), and not worry about having a lousy-to-at-best-middling CHA bonus. This along with the weapon, armor and shield proficiencies, the Hexblade's Curse ability, and the extra Pact Magic slots combined with the extra Spells Known, *almost* make up for the loss of higher-level Spells Known. I wouldn't QUITE place this on the same level as a cleric dip with wizard (in fact, a cleric dip is probably the best possible with almost *ANY* full caster class), but it's close ...
As alwase love ur stuff! I got to ask thow what Cantrips dose your pacifist take? Or are we guna have to wait 3 months for that Info =P
You are going to have to wait....(I haven't even done the hard copy of the build yet - right now it's just ideas in my head, though I have considered cantrip selection, I may change my mind before the vid is made)
Trying some stuff on dnd beyond multi class wiz (14 lvl) and sorc (6 lvl)
forgot to add that you get proficiency in constitution saves, with fighter. pickup a chain shirt with a +1 for defense fighting style +2 for dex and a shield. that's a 18 right off the bat. with a possibility to get to a 20 if you got halfplate. or even a 21 if you went full plate with a shield. 26 with a shield is crazy good lol, plus then if you took war caster advantage on concentration saves plus proficiency in them. never drop a spell again
If you were a lvl:17 wizard lvl:2 fighter lvl: warlock 1 . You could action surge and use a 8th and 9th spell slot with yourself and a simulacrum both using hexblade curse to do a minimum of 546 damage(kills everything in monster manual thats not immune to it) or average of 609 and max of 672, but of course that lvl:1 wizard the shield spell and waste both your 9th and 8th level spellslots along with the action surge and hexblade curse
Another solid video thank you. Would you consider doing a grappler character build or guide one day please?
What im getting at is unless you know what youre going to be doing do not multiclass for a wizard
I was considering multi-classing Bladesinger with Arcane Trickster. Now I’m not so sure...
Whatever happened with your considerations?
@@SaraphDarklaw straight blade singer works best.
I love my 11 ek fighter 9 war wizard i always go 1st and shadow blade with fighters extra attack is super strong and i get a good amount of spells (as a 12 level caster) makes up for what i lose as a pure fighter
Takes a while to get going. Yjough I would say it is a better build than straight fighter
I like EK 12/Hexblade 2/Divine Soul 5/Bard 1 with Polearm Master, WarCaster, and Crossbow Expert because it really maximizes all the EK subclass features.
I get 4 attacks a turn at level 11 and 5 attacks a turn at level 17 with Eldritch Blast into EK WarMagic (buffed with Hex/Hexblade’s Curse). Any time someone comes into my reach I can EB via WarCaster+PAM. I can pop an upcasted Spirit Guardians and use PAM+Eldritch Strike to give everyone I hit disadvantage to saves turn after turn after turn. I can also convert the high level slots into raw damage with Hexblade’s Curse into upcasted Magic Missle for big auto-hit force damage. I can also Quicken Dissonant Whispers into double EB with my Action and Reaction (disadvantage to target’s save if I smack the target first).
It’s EK on steroids and will pretty much dominate in melee.
M0ebius have you played it 1-20? Or is it just a theory build played in a one shot? It’s important to know, I don’t think anyone would play that build from level 1 on
@@smbakeresq mine i have the peak power was mid to late game though i never felt weak i felt downright OP in the 10th till 17th
certanmike what is build progression? At what levels do you take what classes?
i play(exclusively AL) a Hi-Elf- DEX based- Bladesinger5/Shadow Monk6, predominantly using booming shadow blade, with Owl fam. & stunning strike, (Shocking grasp- or -Longbow if i need to). it is by far my favorite character, even though my CON is -0+ with all the traits this build has, i very rarely get hit, let alone go down. i luv the RP of this skinny lil'girl that is so physically week, yet so mentally superior.
i would LOVE to see your version of this build, all the way to level 20 (using AL rules of course) can u please, please, please, do a video for me ? thx ;p #0CON P.S. she also has periapt of poison, wand of warmage+2, Rapier+2
what page is the bonus action spell rule found on. it would be helpful to know please.
Page 202 of the Player's Handbook.
@@BiowareNut ty
Also need to know your DM. Mine is extremely melee combat heavy: as a straight Wiz, I will not survive. Fighter dip incoming.
Artificer is another good option, for similar reasons to the Cleric. The upside is you don't need another ability score, meaning that your Artificer save will also be good. Also, if taken at level 1, you get con save proficiency. Same downside as Cleric, delayed learned spells progression, though, unlike other half-casters, not a delayed spell slot progression as Artificer multiclasses get half their level rounded up rather than rounded down.
Artifcer count as full casters
@@animewarrior3 No they don't. They only get 5th level spells max from their spell progression. Their progression is certainly unique, since they get spells at first level and round up when multiclassed, but their progression is definitely closest to a half caster.
@@illoney5663 I'm almost certian somewhere it stated they count as full casters for multclassing
@@animewarrior3 That would make absolutely no sense. If that were the case, then an Artificer 4 x Wizard 1 would have fifth level spells, picking that single level of Wizard would jump their effective spell slot progression from 2>5 with a single level.
They add half their levels, rounded up. It is very clear under the multiclassing section of the class.
I don't know what you've read, but if you've read somewhere they count as full casters when multiclassing, there's either some massive misunderstanding or whoever said that had something else going on. Whether that would be satire, messing with people, a misunderstanding of their own or something completely different.
@@illoney5663 it may have been for multiclass purposes in regards to other casters. /shrug
I really want to do a 17 lvl illusionist wizard + 3 mastermind rouge, then stop adventuring and take over the town
I like DnDBeyond because it calculates all of those complicated rules for you. I was one of those cheap suckers who didn’t want to pay again for a book that I already bought a physical copy for but I caught one of the sales they were running where I was able to get the PHB and Xanathar’s for 20% off. DndBeyond is worth the investment.
What about Misty Visions for at-will Silent Image + Illusionist?
That's a good idea if you want to really build around that spell.
@@TreantmonksTemple TBH, given how utterly broken the L14 Illusion school feature is (probably the single most powerful subclass feature in the game), I'd say it's worth it, especially with malleable illusions getting heavy mileage from this in the interim. Though it's true you can get at-will Silent Image by going pure Wizard, this way you can still take at-will Shield with shields and medium armor, and get that supreme power sooner.
If you have a DM that is unfriendly to illusions though probably not the best choice, since it does take awhile to get to that L14 point.
Any chance we can get better indication of your color coding for those of us who are visually impaired?
I did! On my spell videos under the spell name (with the color coding), I've added *.
* Red
** Orange
*** Purple
**** Green
***** Blue
This particular video had no color coding as I wasn't ranking anything.
Treantmonk's Temple That is great for those who are color-blind. I am completely blind so some clue in the audio would be great, since there is no way for me to see either the colors or the stars.
I was in a One Shot where I played a gnome wizard8/barbarian6. I would set up field control spells and then rage and attack. It was pretty fun.😁
Bladesinger multivcass with a swords bard is really good
You’d need to start 16+ Dex, 16+ Charisma, at least 14 CON, and 13-16 Intelligence. It’s only viable if you “rolled” your stats.
You’re better off just going Hexblade SwordBard.
I'd say blade singer would work better with a rogue type. Maybe Arcane trickster or Swashbuckler because your low health pool would benefit from things like evasion and disengage. And those things will pair nicely with the defensive spells of the blade singer.
@@M0ebius actually no you wouldnt need 14 con you would only need 12+ you can do this with standard array. Here is how this can be done. you would pick a race that gives bonuses to either con or int or dex. You can choose either bard spells or wizard spells to focus on i would choose wizard. With that in mind your charisma doesnt have to be that high either as all the charisma is used for is for taking the class and since you are not using your charisma spells that much you dont need it that high. You can pick spells from the bard spell list that do not force the opponent to make a saving throw or that use charisma to help determine their power. Spells like longstrider or healing word excetera work well because while they might be stronger if you have a higher charisma they dont rely on it. So ultimately you want to end on a 8 in strength since you arent using it. A 14 in dex. A 14 in con. A 16 in int. A min of 10 in wisdom and 13 in charisma
@@knightghaleon i would agree with you they do pair very well together. You could get more utility out of a bard rogue works well
@@davidmoseley1082 true swash bard is a good combo
Great vid as always. Seems really quiet though, I thought you fixed that? Is it just me?
I can hear him just fine. I'm only using a basic laptop so it might just be on your end.
I put my volume to 125% which is what I normally do
Noice profile pic
For people who have done a Arcane Trickster, Bladesinger Multiclass, how do you feel about dipping more than 2 levels in Bladesinger? It's tough to have to hold out for 2nd level spells until character level 9 when it's just one more level of wizard to give you great 2nd level spells and things worthwhile to concentrate on. It does slow down especially great Rogue features like evasion but later game Rogue features never felt that worthwhile.
not an expert but I would say "go for it". You can always play a rogue-ish Wizard flavour wise, get access to Mage Hand early (though you'll have to wait for MH Legerdemain) and overall just behave like you would expect an AT to behave. Better to have those 2nd levels spells asap imho. And while I am tempted to suggest going even for the 4rth level (Feat) and 5th (3rd level spells) by that point it's no longer a dip...
@@destroyerinazuma96 Then level 6 for extra attack! Wizards are just so fun to play. But like treantmonk's Bladesinger, without the high damage from sneak attack, it doesn't make you play like a melee character, just a god wizard who can go melee on occasion. But haste combined with cheesy hold attack action for 2 sneak attacks could easily make up for the damage cost of 5 levels of wizard.
That declaration of "Hexblades are way better than other warlocks" had me really surprised, could you expend on this?
I imagine he says that because its so frontloaded and provides armor and shield proficiencies at level 1 that all wizards woukd love to have. Plus their feature, Hexblades Curse, scales based on character level rather than warlock level.
They simply get more abilities right from level 1.
1 Medium armor prof+ shield
2 Hexblade weapon
3 Hexblade curse
All 3 are amazing. Other Warlocks get 1 or 2 only.
@@TreantmonksTemple as a dip they are indeed amazing, I had not understood you meant it that way
i thought tempest cleric had heavy armour prof?
Wait, if you multiclass into a pure caster, can't you technically learn spells above your actual class level in Wizard since you have spell slots above what you know as long as the DM has you discover a spell and you write it in your spellbook?
From what I can gather reading the Spellbook entry, as long as you have spell slots of that level, you can copy spells of that level into your spellbook and prepare them. Leveling up in Wizard just gives you spells of your choice, not spells of the DMs choice if what I understand is true. So that 1 cleric dip isn't as bad as it seems since that is on average about +8 AC.
"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it." Sounds right to me, though it will be dependent on your DM to find spells of the right level.
Umm, how is a Cleric dip +8 AC though?
@@xthebumpx Forge Cleric. you get Plate +1 and a shield which is 5 +1 +2 over mage armor, so 8 more AC.
@@archmagemc3561 I guess that's one way to look at it, but it seems like it would make more sense to take Dex into account too, which would be 8-5=3 AC difference.
@@xthebumpx Thing is, you don't need dex with heavy armor, so it lets you better deversify your stats or get feats. Its rare for a wizard to have 14 dex, let alone 20, so you should really compare it to medium armor which is 17 +2 @ 14 dex.
@@archmagemc3561 Forge subclass will get +1 AC over other Heavy Armor subclasses, +2 AC over medium armor subclasses or Artificer MC, +4 AC over mage armor and max dex(+2 if the character can wear a shield), and, yes, + 8 AC over a character that intentionally ignores AC. I disagree about how high wizards without armor tend to put their Dex. I'd argue that--except for RP purposes--having low dex and not picking up some form of armor proficiency is a terrible idea. If you're not MCing into a class with armor, what are you using the extra skill points for anyhow? Pumping Con instead of Dex doesn't make sense since your concentration saves will be slightly better but you'll have to make them much more often (and get knocked out much more often too).
1 level life cleric with x levels wizard is my favorite wizard build.
Are you doing a lot of healing? Normally not something I would gravitate to
Treantmonk's Temple
The disciple of life ability merely requires “use” of a spell to activate the boosted hit-point gain so it seems to me that it might complement the grim harvest feature of the necromancy wizard well. Specially with ongoing spell effects combined with heavy armor. The healing factor would potentially kick in every turn a weak monster is death with by a spell effect like that.
Flaming sphere could heal 8hp a mook, potentially on other turns too.
Similar effect may happen by casting magic weapon on the fighters weapon if the DM lets it slide.
Vampiric touch might become a way to boost healing slightly even though it’s still terrible. 10.5 avg healed per successful hit, 19 on a lucky kill.. still bad most of the time.
Mordenkainen faithful hound could be really good for its staying power. 8hrs of 4d8+spell mods damage after it attacks with probable advantage is nice. could be nice in an area that you know your party has to protect. It attacks on its own and is also non concentration. 14HP a kill.
Could also be used as an alarm mechanism. There is no distance requirement on either of those class abilities. Glyph of Warding goes off and kills a creature, you feel a sudden rush of vitality from any distance, probably even from different planes too.
One might also deem it fit that anything your simulacrum kills heals you, since it’s ability to kill is from your casting of a spell.
Making an enemy fall to their death via magic might proc the healing effect. Grim harvest doesn’t stipulate that damage is required of the spell directly.
Plane shift a creature to the plane of fire, if you feel the healing effect, they probably burned alive.
Maddening darkness and prismatic wall could heal you quite a bit.
Bobby Baker not sure that’s how it works. I just like the idea of a wizard having some amount of healing, especially if there are no actual healers. Better than that is the heavy armor proficiency.
Bobby Baker Yea it says “use a spell” but the rest of the line is “to restore hitpoints” so I could see a DM figuring that a spell dealing damage to something isn’t “using a spell to restore hitpoints.” Especially with grim harvest being an ability that happens after a spell and not being a spell itself.
adamkaris
We don’t have to make that kind of judgement. The way you are attempting to describe the interaction by restricting it to specifically a spell that heals is added restrictions. We can see this by looking at the life clerics “blessed healer” ability which states:
Beginning at 6th level, the healing spells you cast on others heal you as well. When you cast a spell of 1st level or higher that restores hit points to a creature other than you, you regain hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level.
This feature can be used to find the distinction between the two abilities.
Firstly the blessed healer ability restricts its usefulness to “casting” which means only at the time the spell is cast. More limited than “used”
Secondly it specifically limits its benefits to “healing spells”. That adds more limitation and restricts usable spells to those that heal.
These distinctions make it clear that my aforementioned descriptions and uses for disciple of life are indeed within the context of the wording.
Why then would the “use” of a damaging spell that gains the ability to also heal you through a class feature not count as being used to heal you if you receive health from the spell?
Hexblade curse doesn't work with magic missile. Magic missile doesn't say each missile is a separate attack, so you don't get the bonus per missile. This is explicitly stated in the errata, or by Jeremy Crawford. It does work with scorching ray, though, or eldritch blast.
Hexblades curse doesn't require an attack roll
Don't forget, multiclassing Warlock requires 13 Charisma, and that's not nothing.
yup, even a Half-Elf would need to fork over three points, more than 10% of the points allowance!
Wizard that multiclasses into a warlock to become a lich
Something I am unsure about is how important the timing of multi-classing is. Of course a level 1 wizard multi-class is good as you will often get more hit points, but what about if you missed that window? For example if you are a level 3 wizard that just leveled to 4 would taking a level in cleric be good right then? An option I could also see is waiting until wizard 5th level so you gain access to those important 3rd level spells and then once you get to 6th level you take 1 level in cleric. Open to any input and thoughts on this topic :)
You can certainly grab Cleric later, but now you need to think about what to do without armor. Go with Dex 16 and Mage Armor? Are those worth it if you are going to have half plate later on?
I thought you needed a minimum of 13 Strength to wear some heavy armor. And 15 for the one that gives most AC.
So anyone wanting to wear heavy armor would need to be a Dwarf or have something like Gauntlets of Ogre Power attuned.
Does make me like a Dwarf Diviner Forge Cleric multiclass.
It's not that the Strength is required to wear them, you just take penalties to your movement speed if your strength isn't high enough. This is why the suggestion of phantasmal steed is brought up; you movement speed doesn't matter if you're riding a mount for the entire combat.
He also talked about this back in the video on the Eternal Cockroach build, which wears plate with 13 strength, but offsets the movement penalties with Longstrider, Misty Step, and Find Steed.
You take a 10 foot movement penalty if you don't meet the Strength requirement. I mention in the video that this is something you would have to deal with. Otherwise, yes, you can wear Plate Mail with an 8 strength as long as you are proficient.
I think it makes your base speed be 10 feet slower
Treantmonk's Temple you also would take the penalty for weight if using encumbrance. One of the reasons I use variant encumbrance is to prevent STR dump armor wearing builds with no penalties, if you don’t enforce it then things like dwarven armor trait are rendered useless.
smbakeresq The dwarf trait isn’t useless since it negates the movement penalty.
Sorcerer Series next?
My next series will be announced within a week. It won't be a class series
Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster rogue
what about 3 levels of lore bard?
I’m a warlock and want to MultiClass a Wizard
your wizard videos dont have a playlist please help
They do, you'll find the playlist here: ruclips.net/p/PLPkI1ComIaiLQY-yjL8s7BeHxaXSB8dIE
@@TreantmonksTemple All of the playlists are just easy to miss because of the little arrow button to scroll left to view the rest of your playlists is kind of camouflaged. I would suggest putting the playlists all on one page with no scrolling like a lot of channels do.
Oh, for God's sake, Psion fighter with just enough wizard to get haste and mirror image. There. You're nearly unkillable.
What about a really stupid build: Pally 2, Diviner X? You can smite and then Mind Spike people to get another 1 level slot back.
ewww
@@TreantmonksTemple Pally is lowkey busted so you cant be bad with it. Just.. Weird.
Luckily my DM likes to Homebrew, my next character is gonna be a Wizard/Rogue multiclass, he's gonna let me keep my spell slot progression and my spell selection like I can still have 3rd level spells at level 5 with 3 levels of Wizard and 2 levels of Rogue
Well i'll start the comments....I need this knowledge and Clarity.
If you have the stats Bladesinger/Monk is rather nasty.
How so? Seems like it would be very ability score challenged
I guess if you “rolled” stats and had 18-20 Dex/Wis/Int and 16+ Con.
The RP concept on a monk wizard is a good one, but unfortunately the mechanics of the game prevent it from being viable. In 3.5 there were some viable options and specific MC options to enable it but that’s a different time.
M0ebius people who “rolled” stats are not cheated as your quotes imply. Rolling for stats was done for the first 25 years of the game, and it was never a problem as when people created PC they did it in front of their group except in the odd case now and then.
I still advocate a session 0 for PC and group creation followed immediately by session 1 which would compete first level. PCs are built better that way and group dynamics are better as everyone sees what everyone else is playing and therefore picks classes and skills that fit best for the group.
I'm multiclassing Wizard/Sorcerer right now as an undead. really liking the plethora of spells I get at the beginning. If you're curios of what I plan to do with this character I will happily share. otherwise , great video
You don't need Dex if your wearing armor.
You seem to be forgetting that initiative exists. Also dexterity saves, which are extremely common. Not to mention stealth is one of the most useful skills in the game.
Obviously, anyone who's ANYONE multiclasses into Mystic. ;)
they haven't published multiclassing rules for mystic